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Business is an unlikely hero: a force for good working to solve society's most pressing challenges, while boosting bottom line. This is social purpose at work. And it's a dynamic journey. Purpose 360 is a masterclass in unlocking the power of social purpose to ignite business and social impact. Host Carol Cone brings decades of social impact expertise and a 360-degree view of integrating social purpose into an organization into unfiltered conversations that illuminate today's big challenges and bigger ideas.
Carol Cone:
I'm Carol Cone and welcome to Purpose 360, the podcast that unlocks the power of purpose to ignite business and social impact.
I am so excited about the conversation to come with Ziad Ahmed, and he is the co-founder and CEO of JUV Consulting. It's a pioneering Gen Z marketing agency that's reshaping how businesses engage with young people. Ziad fiercely believes if you desire to market to them, if you desire to hire them, you probably have many, many in your organization today, don't talk at them, engage with them, and you'll hear that passionately come through our conversation. This is the first generation of digital natives that has an impact that is undeniable both economically and societally. Purpose and causes, which is why I'm having Ziad on the show, purpose and causes are deeply part of their personas.
Ziad's leadership has led JUV to become a global force working with Fortune 500 companies, startups, not-for-profits and more, to provide valuable insights into the Gen Z mindset. But he's also going to talk about the pain of this generation brought up during COVID, dramatic climate catastrophes and gun violence, just to name a few of the forces shaping their personas. So today we'll delve into his journey and the transformative potential of engaging Gen Z authentically. So join me, let's get started. Welcome to the show. And really you are hero of mine and I'm thrilled to have you.
Ziad Ahmed:
I'm thrilled to be here. You are too kind to me, my friend, and I have learned a lot from you and it was formative for me to learn from you and meet you when I was a teenager and is inspiring now to get to spend some time with you and to reconnect at Fortune some months back, and excited to have this conversation today and really grateful for the time and energy. And I must say, you have such an amazing radio voice. When you started the intro, I was like, that is so impressive. It was so professionally and done in such an inviting way, so grateful to be in the space of clearly someone who knows exactly what she is doing.
Carol Cone:
Well, but I think that as you said, we have so much in common and I love it, because we span generations, but you say you learn every single day, and I do. So let's just talk a little bit about who you are first, because you have followed your passion, you found your passion at a really young age. Who is Ziad Ahmed?
Ziad Ahmed:
I'm 25 and I think often your 20s are defined by trying to answer that question. And so I'm definitely in the midst of trying to answer that question, but I mean I think my title, I'm CEO and Co-founder of JUV Consulting, which is a Generation Z company that works with clients to help them better understand, connect with and empower our generation forward. I started JUV having started a nonprofit some years earlier around social acceptance and social equality where I very quickly realized how often young people are being spoken about but not spoken to, and that didn't sit right with me and that's what led me to start JUV. And I'm somebody who I think tries to spend my time thinking about who's not at the table and how do we include more voices at the table that hopefully [inaudible 00:07:03], while God willing, are representative of the myriad of realities that exist to hopefully problem solve and co-create products, campaigns, and solutions that actually push us as a society forward.
I'm also somebody who thinks endlessly about the tremendous injustice that exists in the world and all this wrong with the world and hopes that our generation and my generation can play a role in eradicating that injustice, or at least alleviating a lot of the suffering that exists in the world. And in trying to understand as a person of privilege, what my role to play in that question is something that I'm constantly interrogating. I am a 25-year-old trying to figure it out and live responsibly and live my values, and some days that is easier than others.
Carol Cone:
I have to say. So I love it in your other podcasts that you've been on, and there's one that you did, which was great, it's called the Earned Podcast, and we're going to put a link to it in the show notes, but you get really pissed, really pissed, when others are trying to represent Gen Z and they are not in the room. So I want you to riff a little bit more about that because you get wicked passionate about that. And then how do we get them in the room? And I know that JUV consulting is a way to do that.
Ziad Ahmed:
Yeah, yeah, all of the above are true. Look, I started my company because I was really pissed, to your point, that I was invited to a lot of round tables when I was a young person, a younger person than I am now, as a teenager, about youth, about young people, and I'd show up to the room and I'd be the only young person there. And it was sort of an unbelievable phenomenon to stumble upon, and so far as I was so angry that there were people who were not a part of my cohort, who were the experts in the room, and I wasn't even just so mad that they existed. I was mad that they existed at the expense of us not existing in the room, that they existed instead of us. Not in addition to us, this idea that there were people who were studying Gen Z, who were considered more the authority than the people who were Gen Z, who are alive and well and can speak for ourselves.
And I think so much of my work comes from a place of believing that if we're having a conversation about any group of people, that group of people should be centered and included in the conversation always. If we are to be the future, the present, we have a stake in the conversation as to shaping the present or the future. And more often than not, we do not.
And so much of my work comes in place of believing that we need people of color, we need queer folks, we need women, we need all groups represented around the conversations that we are having. And so much that is wrong with the world is because the decision makers are too homogenous, do not reflect the many, instead reflect the few. And I believe in a world where the decision makers, the rooms where decisions are made look like the world that we live in and serve the world that we live in. And I think that young people are a really important piece of that puzzle.
And I think that if society can agree on anything right now, it's that the quo is not sustainable. The status quo cannot be the best that we can do. And if we know that uniquely young people have a gift to diagnose the ills of our status quo, then perhaps uniquely young people should be given priority in a lot of conversations that we are having or greater priority than we are given at present to help remedy, I think the tremendous gripe that I think we are all feeling as a society right now.
Carol Cone:
Terrific. And we will get into that. So let's talk about JUV Consulting. You created this firm, you have over 30 full-time people, you've got offices in New York and LA. You have over a 10,000 person community. So was there a moment where you said, I have to do this. What was that light bulb that happened, and then just talk about the breadth of what you do in JUV.
Ziad Ahmed:
Look, every day at the company's a do day. And I don't know that there was one moment necessarily. I think it was an evolution that took place over a number of years in surprise, I started this when I was a junior in high school and it was always meant to be a side project. I never thought I'd do this full time. I never thought this would be a real thing. It was an idea that I had that I thought existed in the world, but I had no idea what an agency was, what advertising and marketing were. I just thought like, hey, we have this little consulting thing and we could work with some projects here and there because there's a need to work with and understand Gen Z. I could feel that. But I had no idea the scope of the opportunity that existed and the scope of the problem that existed.
And so we grew really organically and slowly, and I think probably the biggest turning point was the summer after my freshman year of college, summer of 2018. 10 of us in the company lived together in a Brooklyn loft for the summer.
Carol Cone:
Funny.
Ziad Ahmed:
We worked together and lived together in one loft with one bathroom, 10 of us, and I knocked on every door, met with every person I possibly could. And it also the first time I've ever worked on JUV full time and it was like, oh wow, this could really be something, right? I remember when we signed our first... maybe not too long before that, when we signed our first four figure contract, I was like, there's no way, there's no way that the people are willing to pay this. I had no idea what the value of what we were offering, the size of the scale of the problem. And so there are many moments in my journey where I sort of just stumbled upon, oh wow, we're doing something here that really matters and that's really filling a gap.
Carol Cone:
So I want to get into, when you discuss JUV, you talk a lot about your work that Gen Z is very purpose oriented. Can you just talk for our listeners, but that portion of the mindset, the characteristics of Gen Z being purpose driven, and then I want to get into the what is JUV doing in some of your work and purpose?
Ziad Ahmed:
Yeah, I mean, so JUV is a Gen Z agency, and so what we do is everything from market research to advisory and trend updating and marketing campaign planning to actual implementation. From influencer marketing to experiential marketing to creative campaigns, there's a lot of variability to our work and we show up in a lot of different ways, but the idea is if you want to better understand, connect with or empower diverse young audiences, we can help you do that.
Social impact and purpose become a part of every project that we embark on, whether or not it's what we were scoped to do. Because as a generation, it's impossible to do research on Gen Z without coming into contact with how angry Gen Z is at the world, with how many things Gen Z wants to change about the world. It is sort of endemic to this moment that we're living in. And so it shows up and so far as when we're doing influencer marketing, working with creators that look like the world that we live is living on the social impact. Our why as a company is to empower diverse young people. So that shows up in how we hire and who we hire. That shows up in how we show up publicly and where we show up publicly. That shows up in what clients we take on and what we do with those clients.
Carol Cone:
That's a great characteristic as a lens to look at your projects. I would love to know, because it must change somewhat with Gen Z. What are the prioritization, what are the key issues that are truly, truly important? And obviously they could change over time, but what are the key ones right now?
Ziad Ahmed:
We look at Gen Z is holistically specifically in the west, but what you'll see is, but also broadly, I would say internationally even as well, the idea of intersectionality and pluralism is so key and fundamental to Gen Z. We're talking about the most diverse generation that's ever lived. We are talking about a generation that is connecting with so many different realities and different perspectives on social media constantly, and is much more in touch with people who might live outside of their immediate bubble than ever before.
What this then means is this notion of intersectionality, that translates to the question that you just posed is I believe that we cannot have a serious conversation around climate change without talking about environmental racism and the disproportionate impacts that climate has on marginalized communities. Without talking about misogyny and how that disproportionately affects women and disproportionately affects folks who are responsible taking care of the home. Without talking about the overlapping impacts of misogyny and homophobia and transphobia, and without talking about how all of this is underwritten by economic and socioeconomic injustice and inequality and how all of these systems are interconnected as a mechanism to keep marginalized folks marginalized, to keep those other to other, right?
And so what you have is a generation that understands both more of our identity than ever before and a generation that understands that these issues are all linked with each other and we cannot tackle any one of them in isolation. And so much of the current purpose ecosystem has maybe looked at some of these as if we could tackle them in isolation, but in fact, we can only partly solve them unless we fundamentally reimagine all new systems that allow us to really think about what holistic justice and changemaking would look like. And I think that's a big part of what Gen Z is inviting into the conversation is this framework of intersectionality which is so fundamental to the solutions that we're positing as a society.
Carol Cone:
Okay. So now I want to talk about impact because these companies led by old people, like me, they have to prove something, a reputational lift, sales lift, recruiting, retention, more loyal employees, et cetera, et cetera. How do you work with companies when they're saying that they're going to take on maybe an aligned issue or something, justice in women's feminine care or something, but how do you deal with the measurement part?
Ziad Ahmed:
Look, I am of the belief fundamentally, one, that the world always looks better and has better outcomes when we have diverse teams that are leading us forward and when we appeal to all folks.
Carol Cone:
No question, no question.
Ziad Ahmed:
And I think that in terms of measurement, when most of the big clients that we work with are big brands, when you look about what they're most scared of is the startup disruptive players. And these startup disruptive players, why are they so successful? Because they're less afraid, because they're nimble and agile, because they speak to these authentically and organically and constantly. And so when you think about where society is headed, we always think about the leader of where any of us are going are middle school girls. Middle school girls are the trends of every generation. They always have, they always will. They knew Justin Bieber was hot long before the rest of us did, they knew musically was hot long before the rest of us did.
When we think about what it's like to be middle schoolers today, when we talk to them about these issues, this is what they care about. And so you want to stay relevant in 20 years, 30 years, 10 years, follow the leader. The leader's right here, they're here right now, let's talk to them and let's follow them forward. And this is where they're leading us. There's no question that this is where they're leading us. And so it's about longevity, it's about relevance. And I think too often brands take a really short term horizon of change making. And change is hard, but it's necessary.
Carol Cone:
So I'm curious, how do you, because you're very persuasive and the work is great, and we're going to talk about one of your cases, we're going to talk about Coachtopia, which I love, and I've talked to the Tapestry people and they love you. But how do you work with these CMOs? Because I know in your previous podcast you said sometimes you're at the table and that you are younger than their children, but you've got a great track record and great testimonials, but how do you convince these... I have the same problem too with purpose. How do I convince someone to do this and systemically and cross-functionally? So what do you do?
Ziad Ahmed:
Well, look, one to your point is a track record. Coachtopia is a great example of something that has sold out numerous times. You built with purpose, you built with Gen Z and it performed. And to point to the examples of both things that we've worked on and things that we're aware of that just showcase that this is what the market is demanding, fundamentally.
I also think we appeal to heartstrings and then to your point, people are parents. People are humans who want a better world for their kids. It's for their kids. And so it's about what is the world that we want to create? We're not just here to turn a profit, we're also here to feel like this purpose in what we do and that we're doing something that makes the world hopefully better off than we found it.
Carol Cone:
Let's go to Coachtopia because you're talking incredible things but it's so specific. So I'll let you describe what Coachtopia is, I can fill it in, but I'm curious about how they found you. I know you work together really deeply in co-creation and it's a fascinating, beautiful story, and they have a great video, so talk about it.
Ziad Ahmed:
Yes. Yeah, there's a lot of great content. So somebody who was a former client of ours at Vans who worked in sustainability moved over to Coach. And she reached out at a certain point to say, hey, can you do us... have some research, can you do some research on Gen Z and sustainability and whatnot? So we did some insights work for Coach, which sort of identified this white space in the circular economy and luxury conversation that a lot of folks were demanding but weren't really seeing.
And so for well over a year, what we did was we built for Coach a community called Coachtopia, this community of fashion-forward, climate conscious Gen Zers who worked with Coach iteratively on everything from the brand to the product to the launch, and really co-created the first of its kind circular economy, luxury brand. And Coach really listened to that community in regards to sustainability and supply chain, in regards to design and branding, and in regards to how it actually went to market. And it has sold out a number of times already, in part because it reads as if it was created with Gen Z because it was created with Gen Zers.
Carol Cone:
Exactly.
Ziad Ahmed:
And so you have these really beautiful, stunning Gen Z facing products that also other generations are loving the products too, it's not just Gen Z. But they're fun and they're young and they're fresh that are taking the existing waste from Coach factories and plants and refashioning those materials into new fresh products that are a part of a circular economic supply chain that is fundamentally rethinking the way that we as brands operate and how we think about waste, how we think about supply chain, how we think about customization, how we think about product. We think about even timelines of how quickly new product can be turned around and how infinitely recyclable it can be.
And what June and her team have done in terms of thinking about supply chain, in terms of thinking about climate, in terms of thinking about reinventing business model is transformative. And I think it's setting such a powerful precedent for what is possible. And I mentioned earlier this is what it means to reimagine. When Gen Z is saying, I don't want to just tinker with the existing thing, I want to fundamentally reimagine the very way that business operates. This is an example of doing that and it's working and it's performing on all levels. From a purpose to product to profit level, Coachtopia is a success. It'll only continue to be more so and serve such a powerful precedent, what it looks like to build with Gen Zers and with community and to really fundamentally innovate and to be a first mover and the benefit that that brings to your company.
certainly think that our team has always felt that Coach and Coachtopia have been such a phenomenal partner in not only inviting Gen Z into the conversation, us into the conversation, but listening, but also challenging us as we're challenging them.
Carol Cone:
It's amazing. And so when you have a relationship like that, it's magic. It's like your greatest dreams coming true.
Ziad Ahmed:
In the beginning it was who would hire us? And now I think we've gotten to build some really deep relationships of folks that there's so much mutual learning that is happening and such strong depth and breadth of relationship, and we're really, really grateful to have what I consider to be the best clients in the world and the best relationships in the world. And we did launch Z Con last year, our first major conference, only Gen Z speakers.
Carol Cone:
Oh, I'm not going to get a chance to speak. Maybe you can have one slot for an old person.
Ziad Ahmed:
So we have Z Confrontation, which is when executives get to confront Gen Z about what we're wrong about. And we have a dialogue. So we have dialogue, we CMO round tables. And so there are places where executives and older generations fit in. It's intergenerational experience, for sure. But the people on the main stage as speakers are our Gen Zers. But Z Con is the culmination of the community that we built because we have the most amazing brand relationships, relationships with Gen Z activists, influencers, entrepreneurs, and bringing those folks together to create this intergenerational magic unlike anything else the market has is what we're all about is convening these conversations.
Carol Cone:
I love it. Okay. So can you give another case you can talk about from another client?
Ziad Ahmed:
I mean, just last night we did an event for Converse at their store opening in Glendale, and check out the store. And we got to bring together so much of our community, from influencers to activists and change makers and creatives and celebrate, and we danced together and we laugh together and we customize and product on hand. And Gen Z loves customization and personalization and getting to build out this experience that was very Gen Z facing and content forward, but fun and interactive and create great content out of it. And we love building community, and from Z Con to doing from Coach to Converse, so much of our work these days is essentially in this notion of community, which is really where we think the future of business is headed.
Carol Cone:
It is, it totally is. I would love to ask you about influencers, because especially Gen Z influencers, of course, the person has to be authentic, they have to be credible. And the question is it a one-off or is it knitted into an initiative? So love your point of view on that.
Ziad Ahmed:
Yeah, I think that we, in the early days, I think how TikTok and how influencers of marketing has changed over the last five years is sort of remarkable. And each day on the internet feels like a new set of rules and set of algorithms that we're navigating. Right now, at present, it's definitely the lot. The algorithms right now are really volatile and constantly changing. And if you do one post with one person, that's not enough to really know if that is a brand fit and it's not enough to really set each other up for success.
What we encourage our brands to think about is really building relationships with creators because so often right now it's working with an agency, who's working with a software, who's working with an agent, who's working with a manager, who's working with an influencer. It's like a broken game of telephone. What you want is to actually talk to that creator, brand the creator, build a relationship. If their content is what you believe is consistent with your brand, and if they are a vibe that matches your vibe, invest in them. Even if their numbers and size might be smaller, invest in them and work with them over the long term. Co-create together and don't just become a one-off for the comments that are like, we know you don't use that product but glad you got your check. You want to have comments that say, I'm so happy for you, you're working with a brand of your dreams and you're getting to do cool shit together. You're actually co-creating things. You're working on things and there's relationships and it feels a lot more authentic because it is a lot more authentic.
Carol Cone:
So how often do you get to really create the relationship, get rid of this telephone game with all these different intermediaries, I don't want them, they just want their handout for money, et cetera.
Ziad Ahmed:
It's not about necessarily cutting up the intermediaries, it's about including them in the conversation to say, hey, let's not just do a one-off. Hey, can you get whoever you manage whatever on the phone with us and let's build something over the long term that's substantive and meaningful, and let's work together to create a long-term plan. And obviously we do this very often. Even last night, we had this event, we're texting creators directly, these are our best friends.
Carol Cone:
Yeah. So in terms of you being real and being Gen Z, that you do have those direct connections and that it's a lens, I love the fact that you are totally committed to authenticity.
Ziad Ahmed:
100%. And we're also, like you mentioned the Fortune conference. Any conference that I go to or CECP, I have one ROI that I care about, that I make a real friend.
Carol Cone:
Oh, I've done that. I say that all the time. I say, I've got a goal and get some new friends, and then everything else is up from there.
Ziad Ahmed:
But you've paved the path, my friend, and so I'm just learning from you every day. That is how I approach things, and so I think that we are a company that just has a lot of amazing friends with creators as brands, and we get to call upon those relationships really organically and the way that you would call upon your friends really organically. And I think that's why a lot of folks work with us is because we have those relationships, we're in it, we're not speculating about it.
Carol Cone:
Right, right. That's great. Hey, do you ever say no to a client if they're not aligned?
Ziad Ahmed:
We've said no many times.
Carol Cone:
Good. Okay. Good to know that. I want to talk about something you just launched, which is this pro-life campaign.
Ziad Ahmed:
Pro-living.
Carol Cone:
Yeah. Well, but it is pro-living, but it says, your terminology is, thank you, what it means to be pro-life and I just love it. It's beautiful. So again, we're going to put it in our show notes, we'll put it in our newsletter, et cetera. But talk about that because it's like the blind... I call it a blinding glimpse of the obvious. If you are pro-living and really if pro-life was not stolen by the abortion activists, whatever, it means something totally different.
Ziad Ahmed:
So what that was inspired by, I mentioned we have a stake in a combination whenever something happened to young people and [inaudible 00:44:10] in schools, obviously when Uvalde happened, I think like everybody and our hearts just... I mean unconscionable and disgusting and heartbreaking and heart-wrenching. And then not too long after Roe versus Wade being overturned, right? In the juxtaposition between those moments and so far as how is the same people who refuse to protect our kids in school, six year olds, are claiming to care more about life than me. How is it that our compassion can't be consistent and inspired by the vision of that moment and our rate that we were feeling as a company.
We didn't pitch to a brand because we know a brand wouldn't necessarily touch something this political. We self-produced a video called, Gen Z is Pro-Living, reclaiming what it means to be pro-life. Because what we believe as a company that means to be pro-life is not being anti-abortion, which we are certainly not. We are pro-choice. We believe that to care about life means to care about gun violence prevention, to care about mothers and their ability to live in the way that they choose to, and anybody that can get pregnant and to care about their lives. Right? It is to care about welfare. It is to care about racial justice. It is to care about war. It is to care about the loss of any innocent life, and to say that we believe that all people who are alive right now, not hypothetical future life, deserve to live and deserve to live with justice and liberty and fairness and equality.
And Gen Z is unequivocally pro-living and unequivocally pro-protecting the life that exists here on Earth today. And people co-opting what it means to be pro-life by saying that they somehow care more about life than us is just incorrect and untrue. Because if we really cared about life, we would do everything in our power to make sure Uvalde never happens again. We would do everything in our power to make sure that no child is ever taken from us too soon, who's already here and alive.
And I think that is what the message that we felt like we needed to say, and that was somehow missing in the conversation, is that there's so much of the same talking points on this issue and on these issues, and it's like we want to take the conversation back. It's been on terms that we don't agree with for too long. You don't get to claim that you are something that you are not, because no one has a monopoly on about caring about life when my politic and I think Gen Z's politic is fundamentally rooted in caring about lives.
Carol Cone:
So we are in a very important political year and many, many of your colleagues are perhaps voting for the first time. Do you feel that voting is the way to address this, albeit it's long and arduous and appointing judges and changing laws, especially at state level, local level, et cetera. How will Gen Z really get their agency, well gather it to address this pro-living?
Ziad Ahmed:
I'm going to be honest with you.
Carol Cone:
You always are.
Ziad Ahmed:
Yeah. I think we don't know the answer to that question. I think that voting is one tool in our toolbox of change making, it's not the only. And certainly Gen Z is protesting and we are voting, and we are organizing and we are mobilizing, and we are innovating and we're screaming and we're posting and we're doing all the things to think that we are angry. But I think also increasingly, a lot of Gen Z is nihilistic. Will anything ever change? How can we have been screaming this loudly for this long and things for it to be this bad. To be confronted with the level of moral bankruptcy that exists in the world, I think is something that is hard for me and hard for so many Gen Zers day in and day out.
Carol Cone:
Well, will you lose... I don't think you'll lose your passion. I mean, unfortunately-
Ziad Ahmed:
Me personally? Never. I don't think so.
Carol Cone:
Oh, never, never, never. So this has been an amazing conversation. I'm going to ask you, can we do this again in six months so I can have you as a regular?
Ziad Ahmed:
I am always happy to chat with you, my friend.
Carol Cone:
I appreciate that. So we always like to give the last comment to our guest. So we know this isn't the last last comment, but this is the comment for now. So we've got, dare I say, a lot of old people of various generations listening to this. They're purposeful. They're either companies or they're graduate students, a lot of job changers. A lot of people are always calling me, I can't do this anymore. I've got to get out. I want to be more human. I want to have an impact. So that's kind of our listeners. They're all around the globe. So what do you want to just leave them with about Ziad, about purpose, about Gen Z?
Ziad Ahmed:
Well, that's a good question. What comes to mind is whenever I ask any of my clients what's made you hopeful recently, they tell me a story about a young person in their life. Maybe it's their kid or maybe it's a young employee. And I encourage us to remember that. That perhaps by inviting more youth into the conversation, we will find more purpose and more hope in everything that we do and in all that we do.
Carol Cone:
Love it. Perfect ending for part one of our ongoing conversation. Ziad, I'm so thrilled that we reconnected and I do see a lot of, dare I say, am I, official old person, but I've always been a groundbreaking breakthrough, this whole area of purpose, which we still have to prove its value. It is like crazy. But with someone like you and your expansive view of inclusivity, and I do believe positivity, and your passion and your energy. We need your energy.
Ziad Ahmed:
I appreciate it and we need your energy and I benefit from it. And I'm grateful to be in community with you.
Carol Cone:
I love it. And anything I can do to help JUV, if you decide I want an unofficial old person, I'm here. I want to do it.
Ziad Ahmed:
I appreciate you. I appreciate you. I appreciate it. I'm very grateful for the time and energy today.
Carol Cone:
Thank you so much for the conversation. It's been great.
This podcast was brought to you by some amazing people, and I'd love to thank them. Ann Hundermark and Kristen Kenny at Carol Cone On Purpose. Pete Wright and Andy Nelson, our crack production team at True Story FM. And you, our listener, please rate and rank us because we really want to be as high as possible as one of the top business podcasts available so that we can continue exploring together the importance and the activation of authentic purpose. Thanks so much for listening.
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