WEBVTT 00:00:04.032 --> 00:00:12.792 Welcome to the Uncut podcast. I'm Pastor Luke and I'm Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut 00:00:12.837 --> 00:00:20.657 podcast where we talk about faith, life, ministry in an uncut manner. We kind of hop on here and we 00:00:20.657 --> 00:00:26.952 try and have honest conversations and with the hopes of it being beneficial to anyone who would 00:00:27.024 --> 00:00:29.293 choose to sit in and listen to these conversations. 00:00:30.937 --> 00:00:37.097 Today we had a number of different kind of topics we were tossing around about what should we talk about. 00:00:37.097 --> 00:00:41.777 And Cameron, you had an article that you had ran across the other day. 00:00:41.777 --> 00:00:47.017 And after us both reading it, we felt like it was important for us to kind of tackle 00:00:47.017 --> 00:00:52.258 this and the article itself is kind of the, at least the jumping off point for this conversation. 00:00:52.457 --> 00:00:53.176 Right, right. 00:00:53.457 --> 00:01:03.377 So yeah, I came across this article, and there were a number of things in it that caused 00:01:03.377 --> 00:01:08.257 me some pause, I guess would be the best thing to say. 00:01:08.462 --> 00:01:12.711 And I guess we'll just get right into the article. 00:01:12.937 --> 00:01:22.337 The article comes out of the UK, and the story here is that a Bible professor, a theology 00:01:22.337 --> 00:01:27.159 professor at a college at Cliff College in Derbyshire. 00:01:27.537 --> 00:01:28.937 Derbyshire, England. 00:01:28.937 --> 00:01:34.253 Derbyshire. Derbyshire. I don't know how you pronounce it, but I think it's Derbyshire. 00:01:34.417 --> 00:01:42.777 Dr. Aaron Edwards was dismissed from his post as professor of theology and Bible at this college 00:01:42.777 --> 00:01:47.777 for bringing the college into disrepute on social media. 00:01:47.973 --> 00:01:54.877 He went on, the article goes on to describe how not only was he dismissed from his position, 00:01:54.922 --> 00:01:59.897 but there has been talk about him being placed on a. 00:02:03.777 --> 00:02:09.227 Essentially what is the UK's version of the terrorist watch list. 00:02:09.777 --> 00:02:13.737 Something like that. Yeah, something like that. There was some discussion as to whether or not 00:02:13.737 --> 00:02:23.377 what he had said merited being submitted to that agency. Yeah, and so for me, it's like, wow, this guy must be. 00:02:24.846 --> 00:02:31.496 Really off The chain off the mark or whatever and so you look at the tweets essentially 00:02:31.496 --> 00:02:33.816 Which is what ended up getting him fired? 00:02:34.748 --> 00:02:44.216 And you see these series of tweets which Want to talk about here so the the initial tweet that essentially got him fired was this, 00:02:45.263 --> 00:02:54.536 he says Homosexuality is invading the church church. Evangelicals no longer see the severity of this because they're busy apologizing 00:02:54.536 --> 00:03:01.576 for their apparently barbaric homophobia, whether or not that's true. This is a gospel 00:03:01.576 --> 00:03:09.856 issue, by the way. If sin is no longer sin, we no longer need a savior." He follows 00:03:09.856 --> 00:03:18.157 up those tweets after his dismissal from the college with these ones. 00:03:19.456 --> 00:03:29.896 He says, that is the conservative view. The acceptance of homosexuality as not sinful is an invasion upon the church historically 00:03:29.896 --> 00:03:30.806 and doctrinally. 00:03:31.616 --> 00:03:38.096 This is not a controversial opinion. The acceptance of it is controversial. 00:03:38.096 --> 00:03:41.736 Most of the global church, and even historically, would agree with this. 00:03:41.736 --> 00:03:45.677 It's not homophobic to declare homosexuality sinful. 00:03:46.056 --> 00:03:52.375 And then finally, the last tweet, I expressed the conservative view as a doctrinal issue. 00:03:52.596 --> 00:03:55.085 For example, the implications for sin in the gospel. 00:03:56.216 --> 00:04:00.756 It was not an attack on individuals. It was addressed to evangelicals. 00:04:01.296 --> 00:04:13.836 It seems that holding the view that homosexuality is sinful is only welcome if it remains unexpressed. 00:04:15.036 --> 00:04:18.796 So it says that Edwards was suspended from the school pending an investigation, the college 00:04:18.796 --> 00:04:27.276 revealed, and that it was considering referring him to prevent which policies allegations 00:04:27.276 --> 00:04:29.836 of terrorism in the United Kingdom. 00:04:31.076 --> 00:04:38.215 So, um, there are several issues, uh, I think there's several issues here in this article that I, 00:04:38.726 --> 00:04:40.501 think are worth talking about. 00:04:40.846 --> 00:04:48.864 Um, we could talk about the issue of, uh, the, uh, freedom, the freedom to express certain views. 00:04:49.206 --> 00:04:49.486 Yeah. 00:04:50.006 --> 00:05:02.206 Um, we could talk about the, um, uh, we could talk We could talk about whether or not his position 00:05:02.206 --> 00:05:05.246 is the conservative position, is the historical position, 00:05:05.246 --> 00:05:08.346 is the evangelical position, whatever the case may be. 00:05:10.126 --> 00:05:16.886 We could talk about the pastoral issues that are wrapped up in the church's approach to, 00:05:17.526 --> 00:05:23.046 and response to issues of not just homosexuality but human sexuality in general. 00:05:23.366 --> 00:05:29.302 Because the reality is that this has been, at least in my generation as a pastor, and, 00:05:29.766 --> 00:05:37.866 I suspect even what I know historically of the church in the last 50 years, which extends 00:05:37.866 --> 00:05:44.826 beyond my generation, is that this is not necessarily a new issue, but it certainly 00:05:44.826 --> 00:05:52.226 has been one of the primary, both theological and political issues in the church in my generation 00:05:52.226 --> 00:06:01.206 as a pastor for essentially the last two decades, is what does the church do with, how does 00:06:01.206 --> 00:06:11.706 the church respond, what is the church's position on issues of human sexuality in general, probably 00:06:11.706 --> 00:06:19.686 homosexuality most specifically has been the issue, although those issues are expanding 00:06:19.686 --> 00:06:22.020 and have been expanding into. Right. 00:06:22.286 --> 00:06:24.261 Homosexuality kind of being the... 00:06:25.990 --> 00:06:32.560 In sort of the starting point for the larger conversation around sexuality that's happened over the last, 00:06:33.138 --> 00:06:42.640 Decade or so or more than decade two days. Yeah, quite a while. Yeah Yeah, I don't I don't remember a time where has not been where it's not been and you know, 00:06:43.382 --> 00:06:45.440 What I would consider to be like towards the top, 00:06:46.281 --> 00:06:48.240 of the pile in terms of, 00:06:49.440 --> 00:06:54.000 hot-button theological Topics that is talked about 00:06:54.000 --> 00:07:05.520 And, you know, we were talking a little bit before the mics came on about even the, sometimes 00:07:05.520 --> 00:07:09.560 the difficulty in having these conversations. 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:10.848 I think that's where we should start. 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:28.808 Yeah. This is a difficult conversation to have. For me, it's difficult because it is, you know, I have dual, kind of dual concerns. 00:07:29.699 --> 00:07:33.471 I don't know, I think maybe one ranks higher than the other. 00:07:34.520 --> 00:07:43.560 My two concerns are, one, is that as someone who believes that the word of God is true. 00:07:45.246 --> 00:07:59.289 And is inspired by God, and is inerrant and infallible, and is a faithful representation of the revelation of God and His will to His people, 00:07:59.541 --> 00:08:06.096 and coupled with the calling that I believe that God has given to me and placed on my life 00:08:06.096 --> 00:08:18.776 to teach the word faithfully and to help proclaim the truth of God's word and the gospel is 00:08:18.776 --> 00:08:19.814 that there is a... 00:08:20.093 --> 00:08:29.656 I have the responsibility to say, here is how God has revealed his heart, his will, 00:08:29.656 --> 00:08:38.296 His stance is maybe the wrong word, but his position on... 00:08:38.696 --> 00:08:42.869 It's kind of a funny way to say it. Right? Yeah. Every issue. 00:08:43.760 --> 00:08:48.856 God has weighed in. God has weighed in on the issue. He's not silent on the topic. 00:08:49.081 --> 00:08:56.416 And something that I think is very poignant in the tweets that got this Dr. Edwards dismissed 00:08:56.416 --> 00:09:10.016 from college is his assertion that the doctrinal, historical, theological position of the church 00:09:10.016 --> 00:09:17.618 throughout history is that homosexuality specifically is a sin is correct. 00:09:18.836 --> 00:09:23.836 From the standpoint of like understanding what the... 00:09:27.664 --> 00:09:34.920 The biblical witnesses as well as the historical witness of the church and then the and then 00:09:35.194 --> 00:09:39.834 orthodox what we would consider to be orthodox doctrine from a conservative evangelical perspective 00:09:39.834 --> 00:09:49.274 is that that homosexuality being a sin is not really up for debate. I mean there certainly is 00:09:49.274 --> 00:09:54.274 is professors, scholars, pastors, Christians, 00:09:54.394 --> 00:09:59.199 who would use scripture and historical analysis, 00:10:00.674 --> 00:10:09.408 to present a alternative stance that maybe it was culturally or contextually bound 00:10:09.474 --> 00:10:12.674 to the time where the Apostle Paul was speaking, right? 00:10:12.674 --> 00:10:17.674 You know, without explaining all of those references here. 00:10:19.714 --> 00:10:28.174 You have to take it like whatever level of trust you have, in my opinion, or whatever, you know, I would say, 00:10:28.174 --> 00:10:33.014 I've read quite a bit on that, quite a bit. 00:10:33.014 --> 00:10:40.421 And those arguments in my position, from my standpoint, are pretty weak. 00:10:41.314 --> 00:10:47.314 They're pretty weak, as in like offering an alternative understanding from the biblical 00:10:47.314 --> 00:10:53.954 witness of scripture on homosexuality. So there's that standpoint. It's kind of unambiguously clear, 00:10:54.674 --> 00:11:02.914 and based on the calling and my belief that this does accurately reveal the heart of God 00:11:02.914 --> 00:11:07.914 is like it kind of pushes me into responsibility to proclaim. 00:11:11.317 --> 00:11:21.246 And the other side over here, we have the human element or the pastoral element, which, 00:11:21.847 --> 00:11:30.807 is I love people and my heart for them is to know the depth of God's love for them, 00:11:30.807 --> 00:11:37.367 the depth of God's grace in Jesus Christ, the desire of God to indwell in them through 00:11:37.367 --> 00:11:42.545 your faith in Jesus Christ by his Holy Spirit, justifying them through the work of the cross, 00:11:42.687 --> 00:11:46.984 sanctifying them through the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit and the word, 00:11:47.367 --> 00:11:52.988 and releasing them from the shame that comes from sin and the attack of the enemy, 00:11:53.867 --> 00:11:59.147 and freeing them into abundant life as John, or as John recorded Jesus saying in John 10, 10. 00:11:59.147 --> 00:12:11.785 And because There because human sexuality is so incredibly Complex personal and personal, right? It's not like it. 00:12:13.396 --> 00:12:23.247 Can't separate someone's sexuality from their whole personhood We're not we're not here talking about someone's opinion as to whether or not they think the Marvel movies are great cinema or not 00:12:23.479 --> 00:12:30.014 Right, right. It's like this is more personal than your opinions about you know, current superhero cinema, right? 00:12:30.307 --> 00:12:37.667 Very deeply personal for people Extraordinarily difficult in fact impossible. I don't believe we should separate a person's, 00:12:38.507 --> 00:12:42.907 sexuality whether they have same such same sex attraction or whether they are, 00:12:43.627 --> 00:12:50.647 heterosexual or any any and everything in between between, the ability to separate that 00:12:50.647 --> 00:12:52.527 from someone's personhood is like, 00:12:52.527 --> 00:12:54.618 it'd be like separating someone from their arms, right? 00:12:55.230 --> 00:12:56.227 That's a part of who they are. 00:12:57.267 --> 00:13:01.468 But I have this deep desire to not, to, you know, like kind of maybe the Hippocratic Oath 00:13:01.827 --> 00:13:03.926 that a doctor takes is to do no harm. 00:13:04.127 --> 00:13:10.987 Right, right. Because you and I are having this conversation with each other. Right. 00:13:11.551 --> 00:13:20.007 Right, with microphones between us. there's no actual person in the room with us who is struggling with same-sex attraction. 00:13:20.967 --> 00:13:26.887 Or is living a homosexual lifestyle, or questioning their sexuality. There's nobody 00:13:26.887 --> 00:13:34.487 who is currently exhibiting as a pastoral person that we're talking directly to. And when we're, 00:13:34.487 --> 00:13:39.327 like I think sometimes 00:13:38.819 --> 00:13:48.514 I imagine you probably ran into this in seminary, and I ran into it in Bible college. 00:13:48.749 --> 00:13:54.649 You get young people who want to be pastors, and they think being a pastor means I get 00:13:54.649 --> 00:13:57.606 to tell people what to do and I get to preach. 00:13:57.989 --> 00:14:03.215 And then they, at some point, either find out that that's not the reality of what being 00:14:03.449 --> 00:14:08.859 called to a pastor is, because you cannot be a pastor without sheep, cannot be a pastor 00:14:08.904 --> 00:14:13.189 without people to care for and to shepherd. 00:14:13.569 --> 00:14:22.449 And so, without a element of being a shepherd, you're just a, I don't know, you're giving 00:14:22.449 --> 00:14:25.423 a bad TED Talk once a week. 00:14:25.769 --> 00:14:32.688 So all that to say, we are informed in how we do ministry by who we're talking to. 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:36.847 Right. Right. That is the context through which we do ministry. 00:14:37.649 --> 00:14:46.129 And so coming here and talking about a deeply personal issue without a person in front of 00:14:46.129 --> 00:14:54.929 us to inform how we talk about this, to inform the specific avenues that we will choose to 00:14:54.929 --> 00:15:01.369 go down to and choose not to go down, the tone in which we have, it becomes very difficult 00:15:01.369 --> 00:15:06.132 because now we have to clarify, who are we talking to? 00:15:06.649 --> 00:15:14.049 Right, we're talking to a general at large congregation of people that we know we interact with. 00:15:14.049 --> 00:15:20.994 And then on a level of that, we're interacting with just general public on some level. 00:15:21.129 --> 00:15:27.953 Yes, well, you know, and there's the additional thing is that people listening or watching only, 00:15:28.129 --> 00:15:31.347 they're only seeing what we're showing them. 00:15:31.609 --> 00:15:36.609 You know, it's impossible to see the personal connections. 00:15:38.969 --> 00:15:46.453 And ministry and pastoral care and shepherding that we have done, will continue to do, are doing 00:15:46.615 --> 00:15:54.969 with those who do have really significant questions or in regards to their own sexuality 00:15:55.239 --> 00:15:59.969 and their own attractions and have entrusted, 00:16:01.082 --> 00:16:10.629 those conversations to us and that we take with extraordinary care and grace. 00:16:13.969 --> 00:16:23.969 And in an environment and context of love for that person and love for God and a desire to see them live 00:16:23.969 --> 00:16:27.728 into who God has created them to be and who God desires them to be. 00:16:27.949 --> 00:16:32.949 The question there is like, okay, is this... 00:16:36.109 --> 00:16:42.319 Is this a, for instance, if we're talking about homosexuality, is this what God desires for me? 00:16:42.319 --> 00:16:45.382 Is this who God has made me to be? 00:16:48.244 --> 00:16:57.679 And so the question is in one way incredibly complex and in another way it's not complex at all. 00:16:57.967 --> 00:17:04.319 It's very simple. And so I think the dichotomy between those two things, 00:17:04.962 --> 00:17:11.319 in those two things, the human element and pastorally being, caring for other people. 00:17:12.091 --> 00:17:15.998 And what we know to be true from God's word, they sometimes smash into each other. 00:17:16.659 --> 00:17:20.819 And when they smash into each other, they can do a lot of damage, especially if you're 00:17:20.819 --> 00:17:25.179 not careful or not caring for. 00:17:25.179 --> 00:17:31.275 And I think that's been kind of, and he alluded to this, or the article alluded to it as well, 00:17:31.579 --> 00:17:36.579 is that there is the general perception that. 00:17:40.739 --> 00:17:46.179 I don't even think it's really a perception anymore as much as it is an opinion, in my estimation, 00:17:46.179 --> 00:17:54.915 is that if you hold the position that homosexuality is sinful, 00:17:55.739 --> 00:18:03.188 then you are barbarically homophobic and that you don't love those who are gay. 00:18:09.399 --> 00:18:13.991 That's the running narrative. Yes. 00:18:14.579 --> 00:18:21.598 Even in the church, in a lot of places. Like you are homophobic, you're afraid of them, 00:18:22.516 --> 00:18:32.059 which is all or you're you're unloving you're not accepting them for who they are you're not, 00:18:33.616 --> 00:18:41.819 and so this is where and this is why for me it becomes like this issue of i use this phrase 00:18:41.819 --> 00:18:50.139 before we turn the mics on of walking through a minefield it's like how can i can we talk about 00:18:50.139 --> 00:18:54.859 this in an honest and clear way, without being assaulted. 00:18:56.194 --> 00:19:02.990 With, essentially assaulted with the idea that well, you guys just hate gay people, 00:19:03.964 --> 00:19:09.292 or you're homophobic, or why don't you love them? 00:19:10.324 --> 00:19:15.364 Which does not hold in balance the dichotomy of what we actually do in practice and ministry 00:19:15.364 --> 00:19:19.204 that you just don't see because you can't see it and it's confidential. 00:19:19.348 --> 00:19:22.615 But it becomes a really tricky issue to talk about. 00:19:22.894 --> 00:19:51.604 Well, yeah, so I guess all this to say is like if you're listening and you are someone who is, you know, in some way wrestling with your sexuality, or you have a dear loved one who is homosexual or wrestling with their sexuality, we don't by any means intend significant, significant offense, or. 00:19:52.845 --> 00:19:58.844 Or I don't want to go too down like a philosophical rabbit hole, but we intend, 00:19:58.844 --> 00:20:04.044 and we would hope if we were having a personal conversation with you, we would do so in a way 00:20:04.449 --> 00:20:10.124 that's honoring and loving and kind while being truthful, but just kind of acknowledging the fact 00:20:10.124 --> 00:20:18.444 that we're not able to do that. We're coming here and having a conversation with just you, 00:20:18.444 --> 00:20:23.084 the two of us in the room, knowing that this conversation is going to be listened to by other 00:20:23.084 --> 00:20:27.756 people. But the thing is, is like... 00:20:29.070 --> 00:20:35.282 This hasn't been a topic that either of us have, I think, at least, I don't know about, 00:20:35.516 --> 00:20:40.680 at least your tenure here at Conduit and my experience in ministries thus far, 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:49.160 this is not a topic I've talked publicly a lot about. And I think, and for some fair reasons, 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:57.400 right? Like, I'm not, like, this could easily become, and it does for many people, become like 00:20:57.607 --> 00:21:03.320 the only thing they talk about, right? And for us, it's not, right? And we don't want it to be 00:21:03.320 --> 00:21:10.280 like this. We don't want this podcast to become the defining, the defining, or we don't want it 00:21:10.280 --> 00:21:15.720 to be, you know, we don't want this whole show to turn into Pastor Cameron and Pastor Luke sit down 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:20.200 and talk about sexuality, because the topic is big enough that we could, right? That could be 00:21:20.200 --> 00:21:24.680 the only thing we talked about for every episode here on out. It's not what we intend or want. 00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:33.560 But we do think that there is a point at which there is so much, there's so many people talking 00:21:33.560 --> 00:21:39.720 about this in the public sphere, putting forth different ways to think about it theologically, 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:45.960 personally, all of these things you are encountering if you're listening to this. 00:21:46.139 --> 00:21:50.120 This isn't the first podcast you've probably heard on homosexuality, right? We are, 00:21:50.874 --> 00:21:53.800 Immensely late to the game as far as that is concerned, right? 00:21:54.493 --> 00:21:59.960 Um Yeah, and I don't I don't think that we're going to be offering anything that's completely novel, 00:22:00.520 --> 00:22:06.700 No or insightful other than just saying like this is a dichotomy that we that we recognize, 00:22:07.483 --> 00:22:17.560 but we do Hold a particular position So yeah, and so I guess what we do did do feel like to not. 00:22:19.708 --> 00:22:25.059 Us not being willing to talk about it and engage with it in this sphere, even outside 00:22:25.059 --> 00:22:32.581 of the personal context, is in some way abdicating our responsibility to disciple, to teach, 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:36.799 to help people think through these things. 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:41.980 And so, yeah, that's kind of, I guess, where that kind of goes. 00:22:42.239 --> 00:22:46.508 I feel like that's maybe the end of that hallway. Yeah. Right. 00:22:46.832 --> 00:22:56.779 So, I think one of the important dynamics that we can use maybe to begin to discuss this is what is the. 00:23:00.191 --> 00:23:05.872 Maybe what you would call the historical theological position, both of the church. 00:23:06.399 --> 00:23:11.507 And when we say the historical theological position of the church, we're not saying like, oh, the church, 00:23:12.020 --> 00:23:17.479 like, we're saying that those historical theological positions have their basis fundamentally 00:23:17.479 --> 00:23:18.997 in the pages of scripture. 00:23:19.479 --> 00:23:23.651 So we're not saying that, as like, well, the church says this, but scripture says this. 00:23:24.479 --> 00:23:28.575 I use those terms fairly synonymously, yeah. 00:23:29.859 --> 00:23:40.359 So, we must understand that the church, the community of saints, right, 00:23:40.359 --> 00:23:42.988 those who have expressed faith throughout history, 00:23:43.439 --> 00:23:47.813 in Jesus Christ, who worship the monotheistic. 00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:54.239 Trinitarian God, right? 00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:02.388 That group of people extends far beyond our own context, 00:24:04.519 --> 00:24:11.642 and our own experience. So we tend to think very myopically about what the church is. 00:24:11.959 --> 00:24:17.999 Well, the church is places like Conduit, or such and such Baptist church, or such and 00:24:17.999 --> 00:24:23.119 such Methodist church, or such and such Presbyterian or Catholic, or whatever it's, you know, and 00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:24.821 the churches that we see in our community. 00:24:25.668 --> 00:24:33.279 Well, we must understand that there's a historical backlog of people who have expressed and practiced 00:24:33.473 --> 00:24:40.359 the Christian faith for upwards of 2,000 years now, right? 00:24:40.359 --> 00:25:04.839 Of Christians. There is also now, currently, in 2023, extraordinary diversity and breadth and depth of the Christian faith. And if you were, 00:25:05.593 --> 00:25:09.518 to put a pie graph of Christians in the world right now. 00:25:10.121 --> 00:25:11.327 The United States. 00:25:12.371 --> 00:25:17.221 Would occupy a very small sliver of that pie, right? 00:25:20.410 --> 00:25:27.381 The Christian population in the world today is far greater in places like South America, 00:25:28.501 --> 00:25:34.461 Africa, the continent of Africa, and the continent of Asia, extraordinary. 00:25:34.461 --> 00:25:38.101 There's more Christians in China than there are in the United States. 00:25:38.101 --> 00:25:38.811 They're hard to count. 00:25:38.941 --> 00:25:44.636 They're hard to count, right. And so when we say, well, the 21st century. 00:25:48.781 --> 00:25:52.661 2023 Christian church in the United States, 00:25:56.221 --> 00:26:02.370 is the voice for Christianity as it has existed in generations past 00:26:02.581 --> 00:26:07.421 and even as it exists in generation present 00:26:07.421 --> 00:26:10.221 is just flat out false. 00:26:10.221 --> 00:26:14.061 It's extraordinarily narrow. We're the ones with the TV shows, 00:26:14.061 --> 00:26:19.393 but that doesn't mean that we're a good representation of Christians, historic or current. Exactly. 00:26:19.541 --> 00:26:26.741 So we need to understand that when someone says something like the historic doctrinal theological position 00:26:26.741 --> 00:26:32.402 of the church has been that homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching 00:26:32.501 --> 00:26:34.265 or considered to be a sin, 00:26:34.381 --> 00:26:39.461 that we're not just drawing on, hey, what is the current opinion in the church 00:26:39.461 --> 00:26:45.599 in Western New York in 2023, because that is, that's like, 00:26:45.801 --> 00:26:51.781 you can't even put a percentage on what that is in comparison to all the history of Christianity 00:26:51.781 --> 00:26:52.781 and Christian doctrine. 00:26:52.781 --> 00:26:57.701 And so when you look at the historical position of the church, theological position of the church, 00:26:57.701 --> 00:27:02.730 it is overwhelmingly affirmative that. 00:27:04.981 --> 00:27:06.538 That BUUURP, 00:27:07.916 --> 00:27:16.086 sexual practices like homosexuality, homosexuality itself, is considered to be either sinful or, 00:27:16.086 --> 00:27:19.446 like some churches put in their doctrine, incompatible with Christian teaching. 00:27:21.068 --> 00:27:28.006 And so we're not saying something, to say that homosexuality is sinful is not saying 00:27:28.006 --> 00:27:31.126 something that's particularly novel. No, it's very old. 00:27:31.195 --> 00:27:40.406 It's actually very, very old, but we also should make the commentary that old does not equal 00:27:40.406 --> 00:27:46.886 antiquated. It's not like, oh, we moved on from telephones a long time ago. Why don't we move on 00:27:46.886 --> 00:27:57.926 from that? It doesn't mean antiquated or bad. It actually gives credence to it's the fundamental 00:27:57.926 --> 00:28:06.806 truth that lies therein, that for literally millennia, this has been the understanding 00:28:06.806 --> 00:28:12.606 among those who hold faith in Jesus Christ and the scripture. 00:28:12.606 --> 00:28:19.226 And so to say that now, let's say in the last 50 years of Western Christianity, we've come 00:28:19.226 --> 00:28:27.866 to now get some kind of special revelation or better understanding of the word and Christian 00:28:27.866 --> 00:28:37.911 doctrine than 2000 years of Christianity has had is foolish. 00:28:39.146 --> 00:28:46.454 To say that we somehow, well, we understand it better now than maybe the Apostle Paul, 00:28:46.913 --> 00:28:55.186 Understood it right who had an encounter with the resurrected Jesus himself, right and who was friends with Peter James John who you know, 00:28:56.411 --> 00:28:59.786 So there is a I don't think it's. 00:29:01.641 --> 00:29:11.786 I Think it would be the church's job To I think Christians would have to say. All right. The burden is now upon us, 00:29:13.182 --> 00:29:23.517 to tell why 2,000 years of church doctrine and church theology and Christian faith has been wrong and we are right 00:29:23.786 --> 00:29:25.946 rather than the other way around. 00:29:25.946 --> 00:29:32.564 Burden of proof. Burden of proof is on us to determine what did they get wrong there? 00:29:32.946 --> 00:29:38.271 They obviously didn't love people, which is credibly myopic in my view. 00:29:38.407 --> 00:29:48.246 Well, and the thing is too is that in order to, I won't say that every argument for homosexuality 00:29:48.246 --> 00:29:54.520 fits under this category, but a significant amount of them do require a hermeneutic of. 00:29:56.492 --> 00:30:04.342 Well, they just were them back there, and they just didn't get it, and we've progressed, 00:30:04.342 --> 00:30:06.742 and so now we can ignore that piece. 00:30:06.872 --> 00:30:14.542 Right. And that hermeneutic is problematic because nothing is safe from it. 00:30:14.542 --> 00:30:16.216 Nothing is safe. Nothing is safe from that. 00:30:16.542 --> 00:30:22.142 And that includes salvation, includes God actually existing. 00:30:22.142 --> 00:30:26.632 Because who becomes the arbiter of that, right? 00:30:27.022 --> 00:30:38.533 And ultimately it's you or cultural sensibility. And so it's not a, if you have to use a hermeneutic that leans heavily on that sentiment or that 00:30:38.641 --> 00:30:46.502 frame of mind when approaching those texts, you, there's nothing saying that that hermeneutic 00:30:46.502 --> 00:30:50.902 is not justifiably applied to every other text as well. 00:30:51.822 --> 00:30:56.782 And so you are undermining and undercutting essentially all which you can kind of stand 00:30:56.782 --> 00:31:03.334 underneath with intellectual honesty in your interpretation of the Bible. 00:31:03.942 --> 00:31:10.662 I do think it's worth saying, and I think this is maybe kind of what has happened, and, 00:31:11.302 --> 00:31:18.902 it's interesting for me to see how Christian theology and talking and thinking around sexuality 00:31:18.902 --> 00:31:28.502 has changed over the last 50 years and with inside of orthodoxy is I do think it's worth saying that. 00:31:29.918 --> 00:31:38.742 The pastoral response to people struggling with same-sex attraction has not always been what it maybe should be. No, absolutely not. 00:31:38.911 --> 00:31:44.321 And I think what has happened, and this is me just wondering aloud, I'm not some sort of 00:31:44.422 --> 00:31:52.022 social expert or anything like that. But what I wonder is if we've, who hold the Orthodox position, 00:31:52.022 --> 00:31:56.591 have had to wrestle with, okay, this is a little bit more, now that we're talking about it, and 00:31:56.771 --> 00:32:04.502 it's not just something you don't talk about, it is more complex than maybe we're willing to admit 00:32:04.502 --> 00:32:11.382 initially. And maybe we do need to figure out how to pastorally handle this better. But in doing so, 00:32:11.382 --> 00:32:16.270 So in kind of making that admission and maybe kind of having to stop and retreat, we've, 00:32:16.990 --> 00:32:20.087 maybe kind of stopped talking all together about it. 00:32:21.113 --> 00:32:27.683 And now we're getting to a point where I feel like there is a growing population of Christians 00:32:27.683 --> 00:32:33.763 and pastors and Christian leaders who have a more robust understanding of sexuality as a whole, 00:32:34.626 --> 00:32:39.199 a better integration of it into biblical doctrine and pastoral care, 00:32:39.676 --> 00:32:43.934 but we haven't yet begun to bring that forward in a really public and clear way yet. 00:32:45.645 --> 00:32:48.643 Because we've just been apologizing for what we've been doing in the past. 00:32:48.643 --> 00:32:54.643 Yeah, because doing so is obvious what happens, right? You get removed from a position as a, 00:32:55.295 --> 00:33:01.923 professor of the Bible and you get potentially put on a terrorist's watch list from like, 00:33:01.923 --> 00:33:04.883 right, crying out loud, like, what, where, what is going on here? 00:33:06.665 --> 00:33:12.643 And to be clear, like, we're talking about this in our stream. So we're not talking about any of 00:33:12.643 --> 00:33:18.403 the political implications of this. We're not talking about like, we're talking about this from 00:33:18.403 --> 00:33:21.983 from a theological, biblical, pastoral perspective. 00:33:21.983 --> 00:33:28.468 We're not, you know, we're not gonna go down a rabbit hole of like governments and making policies. 00:33:28.643 --> 00:33:36.303 We're simply addressing what I think his initial tweet was trying to call out was like other churches, 00:33:36.303 --> 00:33:40.081 other Christians, and saying, hello. 00:33:41.323 --> 00:33:44.762 We- Why are we abandoning this law and held doctrine and principle? 00:33:45.294 --> 00:33:46.104 Right. For what reason? 00:33:46.663 --> 00:33:50.743 So that we can avoid being considered barbarically homophobic, I think that's his term. 00:33:52.847 --> 00:33:56.263 Which I understand the sentiment, I do understand the sentiment. I want to go back to something that 00:33:56.263 --> 00:34:01.223 you said because it reminded me of a conversation that I had, oh my gosh, this must have been 00:34:01.223 --> 00:34:08.223 probably almost 15 years ago now, I was writing a paper. 00:34:09.303 --> 00:34:19.655 So, I did a couple different programs in my own theological education, and one of them, 00:34:19.833 --> 00:34:26.833 the end of it, was to write essentially an exegetical paper, which is to pick a passage 00:34:26.833 --> 00:34:37.075 of scripture and exegete, interpret, apply, explain various viewpoints or whatever. 00:34:37.318 --> 00:34:43.153 I chose 1 Corinthians chapter six, because at the time, issues around human sexuality 00:34:43.153 --> 00:34:45.303 were so like, all the time. 00:34:46.533 --> 00:34:48.688 Especially in the denomination that I was a part of at the time. 00:34:49.579 --> 00:34:52.739 And so I chose 1 Corinthians chapter six. 00:34:52.893 --> 00:34:59.613 Well, one of the processes that you go through when you offer a thesis like that 00:34:59.613 --> 00:35:05.108 is that you have thesis advisors and then you have a panel of people 00:35:05.453 --> 00:35:10.893 that read the thesis and they, essentially you go through oral arguments over like, 00:35:10.893 --> 00:35:13.228 can you defend your thesis, can you defend it? 00:35:13.300 --> 00:35:20.718 And I had to choose, or I didn't actually have to, but my advisor chose someone who he knew 00:35:20.862 --> 00:35:26.659 held a different position than the one that I was putting forward because, 00:35:26.773 --> 00:35:30.134 okay, can I defend my position? 00:35:31.566 --> 00:35:43.133 And I was young, I was a young pastor, I was maybe 25 at that time or so, and was a little nervous about it, because this was 00:35:43.133 --> 00:35:48.616 a scholarly person, pastor also. 00:35:48.773 --> 00:35:55.733 He had essentially made the point or had made the argument that whether or not we were talking 00:35:55.733 --> 00:36:00.778 about, okay, well, does Paul, who primarily speaks about homosexuality as a sin, would 00:36:01.053 --> 00:36:10.173 Jesus agree with Paul? Yeah. You know, would Jesus agree with Paul? Yep. And so, because we don't see 00:36:10.173 --> 00:36:16.173 Jesus mention... He doesn't mention homosexuality. He doesn't say the word homosexuality. He does 00:36:16.173 --> 00:36:24.653 not, no. Or the Greek iterations of it. Right. What he does mention is the nature of, for instance, 00:36:24.653 --> 00:36:35.773 marriage. That marriage should be between one man and one woman. And so this professor's position 00:36:35.773 --> 00:36:43.613 was is that, well, you know, that they, that Paul and Jesus, and those, were reacting to. 00:36:46.671 --> 00:36:53.741 Issues that were contextually specific to them. Mm-hmm. They were they were responding out of what was the. 00:36:55.827 --> 00:37:10.661 You know cultural norm for their time to be homophobic essentially So the reverse argument to that is that we would then it I think what it does is especially in the case of Jesus 00:37:10.950 --> 00:37:14.161 Is it communicates an extraordinary low? 00:37:14.161 --> 00:37:23.521 Christology. Yes. You know, whereas, you know, Jesus, okay, now we're seeing Jesus as somehow, 00:37:24.801 --> 00:37:34.241 misunderstanding God's will, his heart, which strikes against the whole divinity of Jesus 00:37:34.241 --> 00:37:38.641 being one with the Father, you know, being the perfect representation of God's being, 00:37:38.812 --> 00:37:44.721 you know, it tears apart Trinitarian belief. But also that somehow in that as well, 00:37:44.721 --> 00:37:48.310 that God doesn't understand or that Jesus does not understand God's will. And two, 00:37:48.481 --> 00:37:55.361 that somehow Jesus is bound by his context and can only speak into the context rather than speaking, 00:37:56.241 --> 00:38:01.041 eternally does sort of the same thing that you said about having a hermeneutic that, 00:38:01.903 --> 00:38:08.358 that of essentially a hermeneutic of suspicion, where now everything is fair game to deconstruct, 00:38:09.121 --> 00:38:15.299 because it was bound in a context or in a historical context that was not as progressive 00:38:15.521 --> 00:38:17.721 or that we don't have as much understanding. 00:38:17.721 --> 00:38:21.361 We have more understanding than they had then. 00:38:22.801 --> 00:38:28.082 And so I think it's important to, I guess what I'm saying is that like. 00:38:30.035 --> 00:38:36.601 Paul and Jesus agree, and if they don't agree, then, or if we think that they don't agree, 00:38:36.601 --> 00:38:44.681 then we have some very, we have significant problems theologically with who we believe Jesus is. 00:38:45.627 --> 00:38:49.183 Well, and we have significant problems with the Bible. 00:38:50.740 --> 00:38:56.394 Right. Right. Like, you, like, I don't know, not everyone listening will have run into this, but occasionally 00:38:56.745 --> 00:39:00.787 you will run into, and it has some value, right? 00:39:00.881 --> 00:39:11.601 So we did a class last night on Nicene Creed and the controversy of, is Jesus fully God and fully human? 00:39:11.601 --> 00:39:13.039 And they had to argue over that. 00:39:13.903 --> 00:39:20.473 And the argument for that, you know, Jesus was begotten, John 3, 16. Well, in answering that 00:39:20.473 --> 00:39:26.553 question, I stayed mostly inside of the book of John to try and show that the author, John, 00:39:26.553 --> 00:39:35.753 the apostle, was not communicating that Jesus was born, had a beginning. He was physically born. He 00:39:35.753 --> 00:39:41.113 had a beginning in human life, but he was preexistent, right? And so I backed up and went 00:39:41.113 --> 00:39:46.793 went to John one, right. And I did that because I wanted to show that there was some cohesion 00:39:46.793 --> 00:39:54.273 in John's thought. But because I also believe the entire Bible is inspired, I could go to 00:39:54.273 --> 00:39:58.593 Luke, or I could go to Paul, or I could go to anywhere in the Bible. 00:39:58.593 --> 00:40:00.553 Or Genesis, which you did go to. 00:40:00.753 --> 00:40:09.153 Right. Or Genesis. I went to Psalm two. Because the Bible is not at odds with one another. 00:40:09.153 --> 00:40:14.687 People out of... I think there's some value to finding coherency in amongst authors. What. 00:40:15.153 --> 00:40:20.193 Is Paul's train of thought in looking at Paul's literature as a whole, as opposed to the gospels? 00:40:20.193 --> 00:40:25.113 But when we get to the point where we're saying, well, Paul opposes Jesus, and they just actually 00:40:25.113 --> 00:40:32.713 teach totally different things, we've undercut God's weaving together of the Bible. And we've 00:40:32.713 --> 00:40:39.263 We've said God, and we're no longer using the Bible to interpret the Bible. 00:40:39.393 --> 00:40:42.774 We're using the Bible to fight the Bible, and that's not a place you want to be either. 00:40:43.033 --> 00:40:49.673 Right. Well, and that's the beginning of it, is that we... You tear apart the fabric of the authority of... 00:40:49.673 --> 00:40:51.857 Any authority that the Word of God has. 00:40:52.073 --> 00:40:54.993 But then, like we said, you get down into deeper theological issues. 00:40:54.993 --> 00:40:57.993 Like if Paul and Jesus didn't agree. 00:40:59.311 --> 00:41:05.001 On something, then you either discard all of the Gospels in the life of Jesus, or you 00:41:05.001 --> 00:41:06.945 discard the other two-thirds of the New Testament. 00:41:07.602 --> 00:41:11.761 Yeah, who do you listen to? Right. So it just becomes a very... 00:41:11.761 --> 00:41:15.749 And all of the theological issues that run current, the currents that run through those. 00:41:16.121 --> 00:41:25.381 So it's much more of a significant issue than you may have been led to believe it is. 00:41:26.441 --> 00:41:31.413 That gets into the weeds of hermeneutics and biblical interpretation and all of that. 00:41:32.043 --> 00:41:38.669 But if we come back to the central issue then of what the scripture says and what our response to it is, 00:41:39.441 --> 00:41:45.799 I'm curious as to how you might respond or how we might begin to deal with 00:41:45.881 --> 00:41:54.861 like some of the sentiment around, okay, some of the sentiment around, okay, 00:41:54.861 --> 00:41:57.024 if that's the position that you hold, 00:41:58.461 --> 00:42:03.308 why don't you, you obviously don't love those people then. 00:42:03.501 --> 00:42:11.203 And how do we as Christians faithfully believe something faithfully believe something, 00:42:13.901 --> 00:42:20.998 and simultaneously maintain a heart and a spirit of love. 00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:33.930 Okay, you know, the funny thing is is the answer to that question is painfully simple and that's why it's somewhat hard to articulate sometimes 00:42:33.930 --> 00:42:40.930 Yes, and it's interesting because it is really difficult to find another issue. 00:42:43.836 --> 00:42:53.694 Where we are put in a similar position of Of of saying well simply because you disagree or, 00:42:54.650 --> 00:43:04.330 Disapprove on a moral level of the behavior of someone Means that you must hate them, right? Right like, 00:43:05.406 --> 00:43:06.594 Let's take, 00:43:09.052 --> 00:43:16.250 Stealing stealing That's a good one. That's that's an even less controversial one than the one I had in my mind. It's a great one, 00:43:16.703 --> 00:43:26.066 We can all generally, as a world, even outside of Christianity, stealing no good, right? 00:43:26.250 --> 00:43:27.939 Bad. Bad. 00:43:28.250 --> 00:43:33.250 Stealing bad. Stealing equals bad. Don't do. Yes. Wall Street bad, right? 00:43:33.250 --> 00:43:36.788 Like that's an easy narrative that just about anybody can easily pick up. 00:43:37.570 --> 00:43:42.315 Let me keep what is mine, let you keep what is yours, earn what you get, blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:43:42.690 --> 00:43:48.086 Yeah. simple, you know, like, that is not a good thing. 00:43:48.690 --> 00:43:58.960 If someone steals something from you or from someone else, well, from you, there is more of a personal offense. 00:44:01.850 --> 00:44:08.206 So you would probably have a harder time loving that person if they stole something personally from you. 00:44:08.370 --> 00:44:20.230 But I find it interesting that particularly if you find, If you meet someone who has stolen something, at some point, not from you, but from just 00:44:20.230 --> 00:44:21.230 somebody else. 00:44:23.320 --> 00:44:29.090 Do you hate them automatically because you're like, well, I don't think that was a thing you should have done, 00:44:30.459 --> 00:44:31.756 Yeah, right. Does that mean I hate them? No, 00:44:32.850 --> 00:44:46.130 No, no Yeah, right It becomes really clear and easy In most situations like that, whether it be stealing or lying or whatever. Yeah that it's possible to separate, 00:44:47.041 --> 00:44:48.383 What someone does? 00:44:50.130 --> 00:44:54.405 From Their personhood. Who they are. Yeah. Yeah. 00:44:56.557 --> 00:45:02.610 Yeah. And that's... Right. That's the case with pretty much everything. 00:45:03.228 --> 00:45:19.692 Yes. Like, we, you know, the example that was coming into my mind is we generally agree that alcoholism is not good. That being hooked on drugs is not good. 00:45:20.125 --> 00:45:25.823 Right that that's not good for you. It's not good for your family. Not good for you in so many different ways and, 00:45:27.885 --> 00:45:38.570 But that doesn't mean that because I disapprove of your abusive substances Means I can't love you. Right, right. Do you think that the difficulty in? 00:45:40.488 --> 00:45:48.617 Using the same kind of like the same type of mindset when it comes to to same-sex attraction or human sexuality issues in general. 00:45:49.040 --> 00:45:59.653 I think the difficulty comes from the assertion by those who do express same-sex attraction 00:45:59.834 --> 00:46:04.770 that, no, I am not choosing to do this. 00:46:07.290 --> 00:46:14.732 Like I would choose to steal something, but that this is who I am. 00:46:15.443 --> 00:46:19.270 This is even how God has made me. 00:46:20.584 --> 00:46:27.300 And therefore, if this is how God has made me, how can it possibly be wrong? 00:46:28.335 --> 00:46:31.194 Right. Yeah, I think that is a- Is that the crux of the issue? 00:46:31.194 --> 00:46:33.994 I think on some level. Yeah. 00:46:35.168 --> 00:46:39.354 I'm curious, and this is maybe a side issue to the answering of that question, 00:46:39.354 --> 00:46:44.354 but as I've grown up in the faith and in church, 00:46:44.917 --> 00:46:52.794 I remember, and it may be it was just my experience in the churches I was like in the circles I was running in. But I remember at some point 00:46:52.794 --> 00:46:59.357 very much understanding the Christian position to be, well, yeah, homosexuality is a choice. 00:47:00.554 --> 00:47:05.154 And then I remember the first time I ran across somebody who had a more nuanced understanding 00:47:05.154 --> 00:47:11.354 of that, and said that like, well, no, you didn't necessarily choose to experience same 00:47:11.354 --> 00:47:16.686 sex attraction. But you're you are making a choice as whether or not you live that out. 00:47:17.274 --> 00:47:23.674 Whether or not you choose to live a homosexual lifestyle, which I think, I don't know, maybe 00:47:23.674 --> 00:47:31.274 I'm making a bigger assumption, I think that that's a fairly well-understood theological distinction. 00:47:31.274 --> 00:47:39.074 Maybe it's not, but I remember when that theological distinction happened in the life of the church and public theology. 00:47:39.074 --> 00:47:43.794 Do you remember that, or was it just because I was younger and growing up as it's happening? 00:47:43.794 --> 00:47:48.770 I guess I don't even really remember when that distinction really would have been made. 00:47:48.834 --> 00:47:56.994 I think from my experience, that's kind of always been the distinction. 00:47:56.994 --> 00:48:05.073 I think that my feeling on it, though, is that that brings up many theological questions 00:48:05.505 --> 00:48:12.714 that I don't really know how to answer, which would be first, like, okay. 00:48:12.714 --> 00:48:27.994 So the assumption then is, okay, God made them this way. That's a tricky statement in and of itself, but God made them this way, and what he's 00:48:27.994 --> 00:48:30.730 asking them is to just have. 00:48:32.278 --> 00:48:37.229 An extraordinary level of self-control or theological understanding 00:48:37.308 --> 00:48:41.768 so as not to express the sexuality that they experience. 00:48:43.648 --> 00:48:50.928 Which is, feels unfair to me. It feels like a, it feels like an expectation 00:48:50.928 --> 00:48:55.928 that I wouldn't want, you know, as a heterosexual man, 00:48:55.928 --> 00:49:00.815 I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I would feel like well, 00:49:02.368 --> 00:49:07.208 why, why wouldn't I express what I feel is a part of me? 00:49:07.208 --> 00:49:13.545 So it does bring up those questions, but I don't think necessarily that it's, 00:49:13.950 --> 00:49:22.556 it's particularly improper or incorrect to say, okay, there is a proclivity for this attraction. 00:49:26.337 --> 00:49:33.331 And because of what I know about God and who he has made me to be, 00:49:34.178 --> 00:49:39.168 my response to those proclivities may be different than others. 00:49:39.168 --> 00:49:48.419 So for instance, many people know that I have a history of addiction and That, 00:49:49.211 --> 00:49:53.020 that there's lots of questions whether or not addiction is, 00:49:54.127 --> 00:50:01.347 Hereditary. Yes, right and it seems to be an answer Yes, and yes, yes and no, right, 00:50:03.930 --> 00:50:08.116 And You know because I have a 00:50:08.260 --> 00:50:13.808 History in my family a strong history in my family of addiction. And so and so I would say well, okay 00:50:13.808 --> 00:50:21.917 Yeah, I do feel that we would call what I have an addictive personality. 00:50:22.808 --> 00:50:31.088 And I can see that even in the sober life that I've been living for the last, you know, seven years. Yeah. 00:50:32.927 --> 00:50:42.973 In regards to alcohol that That yeah, I have a proclivity for addiction i've made the choice to set that aside right right, 00:50:44.161 --> 00:50:47.717 But that has not done away with this sense of, 00:50:48.554 --> 00:50:51.903 Being addicted to other things that I see is very easy for me. Yep, 00:50:53.253 --> 00:50:58.484 Yep, right. I have a very addictive personality across the board not just with substance, 00:50:59.978 --> 00:51:10.304 and so can see how something that is not God's heart or desire for my life to be a part of who I am, right? 00:51:10.697 --> 00:51:14.778 What does that speak to me theologically? It speaks to me that there is a, 00:51:15.497 --> 00:51:18.883 that we still don't understand, and we never will, 00:51:20.477 --> 00:51:30.457 the depth of sin's hold and pervasiveness in humanity hold and pervasiveness in humanity, 00:51:30.957 --> 00:51:35.957 that sin goes down into our personhood. 00:51:36.977 --> 00:51:45.337 Not just our conduct, but it affects, yes, who we perceive ourselves to be 00:51:45.337 --> 00:51:49.857 and who we actually are outside of Christ, right? 00:51:50.022 --> 00:51:54.973 And until faith in Christ is expressed And we... 00:51:55.981 --> 00:52:01.951 Go through the lifelong journey of being sanctified by his spirit and in his word to be transformed 00:52:01.951 --> 00:52:14.796 into his image and likeness, that we will always experience to some degree those proclivities, 00:52:15.525 --> 00:52:22.111 those pulls to things that we know are not God's best for us, but we feel are still deeply 00:52:22.111 --> 00:52:23.501 personal to who we are. 00:52:24.023 --> 00:52:28.939 I mean, what you're articulating is a theology of sin and depravity. 00:52:29.272 --> 00:52:32.000 Exactly. Total depravity. Total depravity. 00:52:32.271 --> 00:52:36.271 A good Calvinist that I'm not. Right. Right? I'm not a Calvinist. 00:52:36.271 --> 00:52:40.111 Right? Like, if I was a Calvinist, I would be like, total depravity all the way here. 00:52:40.111 --> 00:52:46.111 Right? Right. Right. It's tea in the tulip. Tea in the tulip. Right. 00:52:46.169 --> 00:52:48.111 That's what this is. It's total depravity. 00:52:48.528 --> 00:52:52.551 Yeah. And so, like you said, that statement of the interlocutor, the person who's saying, well, 00:52:52.551 --> 00:53:00.471 made me this way?" Well, yes and no, right? Like, I don't want to deny that God made you, but like, 00:53:01.347 --> 00:53:06.151 you were born with sin. You were conceived in sin. All of us have gone astray, like she. 00:53:07.191 --> 00:53:13.751 Following our own ways. We've all have our own proclivities of sin that are not just, 00:53:13.751 --> 00:53:18.523 that are not just we do bad things, 00:53:18.568 --> 00:53:26.311 but that inside of us is a broken person, a broken soul that desires bad things. 00:53:26.311 --> 00:53:29.704 We are not basically good and we do bad things. 00:53:30.031 --> 00:53:39.471 We are broken at our core. We are fully bad and it's Christ in us that makes us good. 00:53:40.711 --> 00:53:42.154 Not the other way around. 00:53:42.311 --> 00:53:46.160 And so your particular brokenness and sin. 00:53:47.799 --> 00:53:53.889 Is going to be different from everybody else's, right? Like, for me, substance has not been, 00:53:54.529 --> 00:53:59.569 my thing. It's never been a big issue for me. But I've definitely had my other sin struggles. Sure. 00:53:59.753 --> 00:54:03.809 I've definitely got my other proclivities and ways in which I'm a broken person. 00:54:05.641 --> 00:54:12.753 And I do think, I think it's really important to make this distinction, is that Christ is not, 00:54:12.852 --> 00:54:19.249 and the Bible is not putting just a... I don't remember exactly what you were saying, 00:54:19.249 --> 00:54:25.729 but this triggered this thought in me, but there is a... the Bible has restrictions, 00:54:26.418 --> 00:54:29.969 on everyone's sexuality, right? Yes. 00:54:32.090 --> 00:54:40.449 The heterosexual person has ways in which they need to limit their sexual desire, 00:54:41.326 --> 00:54:42.839 in order to be in line with God's Word. 00:54:43.594 --> 00:54:51.009 If that means, well, I can't just pursue anyone I feel sexually desired towards 00:54:51.009 --> 00:54:53.110 if I'm in a covenant of marriage. 00:54:53.329 --> 00:54:57.289 If I'm outside of a covenant of marriage, I'm not married yet, right? 00:54:57.289 --> 00:55:01.320 I'm understanding sex to be for marriage and part of that covenant. 00:55:01.905 --> 00:55:06.037 Well then, God is asking me to not live this out yet. 00:55:06.920 --> 00:55:13.170 And so we're not like, there's a dichotomy there when we're saying like, well, part of my, 00:55:13.170 --> 00:55:18.361 you're asking me to limit part of my sexuality and its expression, it's part of me. And we're 00:55:18.530 --> 00:55:25.170 like, yeah, that's kind of the ask that we feel God is making on everyone. It's not something 00:55:25.170 --> 00:55:33.250 that we are leveraging. Yes, there is a unique cost, an absolute unique cost that is being made, 00:55:33.404 --> 00:55:38.930 or that is asked of someone who experienced same-sex attraction and wants to pursue. 00:55:39.970 --> 00:55:47.570 Holy sexuality, there is a unique cost that they will know that others will not. But others still 00:55:47.570 --> 00:55:54.290 have costs and limits in which we must say, my sexuality, my carnal flesh wants to go this 00:55:54.290 --> 00:56:00.627 direction, but I must withhold it for Christ's sake and by His power and His strength. 00:56:00.897 --> 00:56:07.271 Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Right. And then there's an underlying, there's an underlying point here I want to make. 00:56:07.910 --> 00:56:13.356 To what I just said. And that is that the goal is, the goal is not heterosexuality. 00:56:13.608 --> 00:56:15.688 The goal is holy sexuality. Right. 00:56:16.003 --> 00:56:21.490 And I think I'm borrowing that language from Christopher Yuhon. He's a professor and writer 00:56:21.490 --> 00:56:26.050 who's struggled with same sex attraction and wrote in several books on this topic. 00:56:26.220 --> 00:56:42.050 But he makes this point of saying, like, the point isn't necessarily for the person who's experiencing same-sex attraction to become, like, a, like, you know, Mr. Heterosexual in all of the ways. 00:56:42.050 --> 00:56:43.946 That's not necessarily the goal. 00:56:44.171 --> 00:56:51.050 The goal is for them to find how is God called them to be holy with the sexuality that they possess. 00:56:51.050 --> 00:56:57.150 And I think that's a really important distinction that sometimes gets lost. 00:56:57.150 --> 00:56:58.026 Yeah, I think you're right. 00:56:58.230 --> 00:57:03.931 Yeah, maybe the goal has been heterosexuality. That's your goal. 00:57:04.030 --> 00:57:05.930 That's everyone's goal. Right. 00:57:06.230 --> 00:57:14.599 Well, actually the goal is to be holy, as Jesus is holy, and be conformed in the image and likeness of God's son. 00:57:14.710 --> 00:57:18.128 Because there's plenty of heterosexuals that have lots of sexual sin. 00:57:18.470 --> 00:57:19.892 Oh yes, yeah, right. 00:57:21.062 --> 00:57:29.472 That's a good point. I like that. I like that distinction. I guess, and then I think we're kind of running up on our hour that we normally hit. And I, 00:57:32.032 --> 00:57:41.840 think that there is still a significant burden of shame and guilt in a lot of church spaces 00:57:42.065 --> 00:57:48.432 when it comes to sexuality and sexual experiences and wrestling through them. 00:57:48.672 --> 00:57:56.243 Mm-hmm. There's They've not really become comfortable to be part of an ordinary testimony yet, right? 00:57:57.072 --> 00:58:04.615 Particularly if you haven't had some sort of I don't want to be dismissal if this is anybody's story, but if you've not. 00:58:05.592 --> 00:58:12.752 Experienced a radical transition in your sexual experience and expression if you're still in a place of like, 00:58:13.249 --> 00:58:17.132 Actually, like I'm not acting out on my same-sex attraction, but I still feel it, 00:58:18.100 --> 00:58:25.212 But that's not a common thing that ends up in testimonies on stages. 00:58:25.537 --> 00:58:30.612 And I think that that creates an era that can still create a space inside of churches 00:58:30.612 --> 00:58:37.132 where people feel like, it's not okay for me to tell people that I'm experiencing this, 00:58:37.132 --> 00:58:42.612 ask for help, ask for people to support me, what can I be doing and wrestling through, 00:58:42.612 --> 00:58:45.954 how can I do this with other people and not doing it alone? 00:58:46.612 --> 00:58:52.921 And so I want to take just that brief moment to say that if anyone's listening, if you're 00:58:53.092 --> 00:58:57.572 at our church, we want to be a church where you can come and wrestle with that. 00:58:57.572 --> 00:58:59.682 Yeah, absolutely. We want to be your pastors. 00:58:59.832 --> 00:59:02.332 We want to love you through that. We want to be with you. 00:59:02.332 --> 00:59:08.572 We don't want you to sit with feeling like the Bible has said one thing, and you're sitting 00:59:08.572 --> 00:59:15.612 underneath the thumb or the hammer of God because your sexuality feels like it's not 00:59:15.612 --> 00:59:22.812 incongruence. We want you to meet Jesus. We want you to experience Jesus and his love. 00:59:25.456 --> 00:59:37.612 Yeah, I guess that's my shepherd's heart right there. Yeah, a hundred percent. It certainly is, you know, your point about testimonies, 00:59:37.612 --> 00:59:41.930 like it becomes like a powerful part of a testimony for someone to say, 00:59:42.299 --> 00:59:46.728 I'm an addict, but I'm currently living a clean and sober life. 00:59:47.979 --> 00:59:54.229 Everyone's like, oh, bravo. I'm so encouraged and inspired by that. Someone would say, 00:59:55.029 --> 01:00:01.909 I have homosexual attraction. I'm not acting on that attraction. Everyone's like, 01:00:03.589 --> 01:00:11.109 they feel on the others like this. Right. And the church has not done, 01:00:11.109 --> 01:00:22.489 done, pastors have not done a particularly good job at unblurring the lines between those 01:00:22.489 --> 01:00:31.865 two types of statements or experiences to say, no, you are still welcome here in this community. 01:00:33.209 --> 01:00:46.169 We desire to shepherd you and to get you closer to Jesus and allow Jesus the freedom and the 01:00:46.169 --> 01:00:50.689 place that he desires to transform you from the inside out and to speak into your life 01:00:50.689 --> 01:01:01.329 and to speak into your heart and to display his love for you and to call you to holiness. 01:01:02.248 --> 01:01:09.369 And there's a... It goes back to what seems pretty simple in the church, but sometimes it's not. 01:01:09.369 --> 01:01:14.779 It's like, well, who comes to this place? 01:01:15.009 --> 01:01:20.208 Who gets access to the community that calls themselves Christians? 01:01:20.329 --> 01:01:28.649 Is it those that are already good enough to be Christians, which is a misnomer in and of itself? 01:01:28.649 --> 01:01:32.280 Or is it those coming to seek? 01:01:33.621 --> 01:01:43.453 Like community in their pursuit of life-transforming relationship with Jesus, no matter where they are, 01:01:44.748 --> 01:01:54.973 in that phase of their life. If you are like the poster boy for sinful expressions and habits, 01:01:55.839 --> 01:02:02.733 you don't need to get yourself cleaned up before you come to the community of faith, 01:02:02.733 --> 01:02:08.493 At least here at Conduit, we welcome you and love you, and we'll preach the word. 01:02:10.188 --> 01:02:13.213 And ask that the Holy Spirit of God move upon your life, just like we would ask, 01:02:14.333 --> 01:02:21.873 he would do to anyone. But certainly, do not allow either past experiences or, 01:02:23.368 --> 01:02:28.573 the work of the enemy to produce incredibly heavy guilt and shame upon you, 01:02:28.573 --> 01:02:33.573 you stop you from responding to the grace of God? 01:02:35.025 --> 01:02:38.968 Yeah. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. A physician came to heal those who are sick, 01:02:39.413 --> 01:02:42.101 not those who are already healthy. Not those who are already healthy, yeah. 01:02:42.668 --> 01:02:44.081 Like that's the thing. 01:02:45.333 --> 01:02:48.475 Well, we hope that in some ways this was. 01:02:50.813 --> 01:02:56.829 I don't know, helpful is the right word. At the very least you have a sense of maybe some, 01:02:57.801 --> 01:03:02.893 in which to have the conversation with others or internally in yourself and give you some 01:03:02.893 --> 01:03:04.893 opportunities to think through it. 01:03:04.893 --> 01:03:12.213 If you maybe appreciate conversations like this or you would appreciate that we explore 01:03:12.213 --> 01:03:19.773 a little bit more the complexity of theological conversation and Christian faith and sexuality, 01:03:19.773 --> 01:03:21.549 we can certainly do that. Yeah. 01:03:21.773 --> 01:03:26.913 Or if you have a specific question, some specificity around something, you can certainly ask us. 01:03:26.913 --> 01:03:32.133 Yeah, you can put it in the comments here or you can text it to our our mailbag line, which is seven one six, 01:03:33.162 --> 01:03:42.673 two zero one zero five zero seven and we can either use that as a part two of this episode or we'll include it in a mailbag if it's, 01:03:44.001 --> 01:03:47.913 if it's appropriate there, but we do thank you for listening and thank you for watching and, 01:03:49.861 --> 01:04:02.633 We we hope that it was helpful or Or maybe it made you angry enough to think through or pray about or walk with or, I don't 01:04:02.870 --> 01:04:03.356 know. 01:04:03.680 --> 01:04:08.673 I don't know what I hope it did in you, but I know it's not an easy conversation for anyone 01:04:08.673 --> 01:04:11.503 to have, but in the same regard, it is also an easy conversation. 01:04:13.633 --> 01:04:14.842 And we hope our heart has come through on this. 01:04:17.513 --> 01:04:18.317 We'll see you all next time. Thanks.