WEBVTT 00:00:03.030 --> 00:00:08.640 Matt Abrahams: To fully be present and in the moment, you must awaken your voice. 00:00:08.940 --> 00:00:12.120 My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:12.120 --> 00:00:13.890 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:14.220 --> 00:00:18.030 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:18.181 --> 00:00:21.161 Today I am delighted to speak with Patsy Rodenburg. 00:00:21.181 --> 00:00:26.821 Patsy is a world renowned expert in voice, speech, and presentation, with 00:00:26.821 --> 00:00:31.591 over 45 years of experience coaching across creative and corporate industries. 00:00:31.801 --> 00:00:36.351 She's the former head of voice at the UK Royal National Theater and a Director 00:00:36.351 --> 00:00:38.031 for the Royal Shakespeare Company. 00:00:38.271 --> 00:00:41.961 She has transformed how actors, prime ministers, CEOs, and 00:00:41.961 --> 00:00:43.581 global leaders communicate. 00:00:44.151 --> 00:00:48.351 She's written many books including Presence and Power Presentation. 00:00:48.781 --> 00:00:49.951 Welcome, Patsy. 00:00:49.951 --> 00:00:52.771 I've been excited for our conversation for quite a while now. 00:00:52.771 --> 00:00:53.761 Thanks for being here. 00:00:54.151 --> 00:00:55.471 Patsy Rodenburg: I'm so delighted. 00:00:55.831 --> 00:00:59.911 And Matt, I think you're doing something so important about communication because 00:00:59.911 --> 00:01:01.741 I think it's what the world needs now. 00:01:02.071 --> 00:01:03.271 Matt Abrahams: Thank you so much. 00:01:03.481 --> 00:01:04.321 Shall we get started? 00:01:04.531 --> 00:01:05.431 Patsy Rodenburg: Yes, please. 00:01:05.581 --> 00:01:06.331 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:01:06.631 --> 00:01:09.751 You have worked with a number of famous people to help them 00:01:09.751 --> 00:01:11.731 with their presence and voice. 00:01:12.001 --> 00:01:13.801 I'd like to start with voice. 00:01:14.041 --> 00:01:18.211 What are some of the foundational vocal principles you provide when you coach? 00:01:18.631 --> 00:01:24.151 Patsy Rodenburg: My work is about embodiment and it's about a craft that is 00:01:24.151 --> 00:01:26.731 returning people to their natural selves. 00:01:27.031 --> 00:01:32.281 The good news is the vast majority of people are born with amazing voices, and 00:01:32.281 --> 00:01:34.741 somewhere along the line they lose them. 00:01:34.861 --> 00:01:41.431 And my job is to return people to their full power in their body, 00:01:41.701 --> 00:01:46.081 in their breath systems, in their voices, in their ability to speak 00:01:46.471 --> 00:01:49.786 and use language in an exciting way. 00:01:50.176 --> 00:01:52.666 Matt Abrahams: Beyond the embodiment piece, are there 00:01:52.666 --> 00:01:58.186 principles you help people with around breathing or articulation? 00:01:58.216 --> 00:02:00.556 Can you walk us through some of those exercises? 00:02:01.156 --> 00:02:03.496 Patsy Rodenburg: So the first thing I would do is I would look at somebody's 00:02:03.496 --> 00:02:08.231 body and I would look at the tensions in the body, starting with the feet. 00:02:08.766 --> 00:02:11.076 The body is like a connected journey. 00:02:11.226 --> 00:02:15.816 We have to connect to our whole body to find our voice, so the feet, the front 00:02:15.816 --> 00:02:17.496 of the feet, the knees not being locked. 00:02:18.271 --> 00:02:21.751 If you lock your knees, that tension goes all the way through 00:02:21.751 --> 00:02:23.551 the body into the throat. 00:02:23.911 --> 00:02:26.581 A lot of people with very tight voices, if you look down, 00:02:26.791 --> 00:02:27.841 they're locking their knees. 00:02:28.111 --> 00:02:32.251 The next thing that's incredibly important in the body is that the pelvic 00:02:32.251 --> 00:02:37.711 area is on top of the hips, but most people today, when they stand, they're 00:02:37.711 --> 00:02:43.111 either pushing their hips forward, locking their knees, and all that builds 00:02:43.111 --> 00:02:45.181 into the body and up into the throat. 00:02:46.026 --> 00:02:48.246 The important thing about the pelvic area is that that is 00:02:48.246 --> 00:02:49.506 where we have to breathe from. 00:02:49.506 --> 00:02:51.126 It's a very low breath down there. 00:02:51.366 --> 00:02:53.976 We also have to breathe quickly to think quickly. 00:02:54.036 --> 00:02:56.376 If we think without breath, it becomes a gavel. 00:02:56.796 --> 00:03:01.176 So if you put your hand on your lower abdominal area and just feel that, you 00:03:01.176 --> 00:03:05.466 should feel the breath goes down and that takes a bit of time and it calms you. 00:03:05.856 --> 00:03:08.796 We get frightened when we speak because we forget to breathe. 00:03:08.946 --> 00:03:13.536 So if I move up through the body, the spine has to be up, not braced. 00:03:13.596 --> 00:03:16.326 Not pulling your shoulders back, not slumped. 00:03:16.836 --> 00:03:23.376 If we brace or slump, we reduce our breath and the energy gets stuck in the 00:03:23.376 --> 00:03:27.576 throat, which is when those wonderful ideas you have, they come out on a 00:03:27.666 --> 00:03:32.406 monotone, not because your are boring, because your voice is held and tight. 00:03:32.646 --> 00:03:34.866 And the two last things, are shoulders being free. 00:03:35.166 --> 00:03:38.946 If you are getting nervous, if you feel your voice is getting thinner, 00:03:39.216 --> 00:03:42.976 the first thing you can do is just to think to yourself release my shoulders, 00:03:43.216 --> 00:03:47.026 release my jaw, because until the body's in place you can't breathe. 00:03:47.026 --> 00:03:50.956 And we are looking to see no upper chest tension. 00:03:51.256 --> 00:03:54.346 You can put your hand on your upper chest and if you breathe in, which 00:03:54.346 --> 00:03:58.336 most people do when they're nervous, the chest lifts, it shouldn't lift. 00:03:58.996 --> 00:04:03.256 Because as it lifts, I dunno if you can feel the back of the rib cage 00:04:03.256 --> 00:04:06.646 tighten means that you are not breathing because the lungs are at the back. 00:04:07.126 --> 00:04:10.636 Matt Abrahams: So it's balance of body and rooting yourself into the ground. 00:04:10.726 --> 00:04:12.736 Patsy Rodenburg: Yes, and looking out at the world. 00:04:12.736 --> 00:04:16.306 And of course we know who we're going to listen to long before they speak. 00:04:16.306 --> 00:04:17.896 We know through their body. 00:04:18.376 --> 00:04:22.066 And if you are centered, you come on or you walk into a space 00:04:22.066 --> 00:04:24.076 with authority, with clarity. 00:04:24.286 --> 00:04:27.886 So the next thing I would do is open the voice with the breath underneath it. 00:04:28.291 --> 00:04:31.201 And you can feel this if you are sitting beside a desk. 00:04:31.441 --> 00:04:35.461 If you push your hands against the table, remember your feet on the floor, the front 00:04:35.461 --> 00:04:39.571 of the feet on the floor, and you breathe, you will feel the breath go down more. 00:04:39.841 --> 00:04:40.021 Matt Abrahams: Wow. 00:04:40.021 --> 00:04:41.161 That's a great activity. 00:04:41.161 --> 00:04:43.741 I'm doing that as I speak and I see what you're saying. 00:04:43.831 --> 00:04:49.501 It is fascinating to me that body leads to breathe which leads to voice. 00:04:49.581 --> 00:04:56.511 And by connecting those together, you can improve and open up your voice to 00:04:56.511 --> 00:04:58.671 do the things that we want it to do. 00:04:58.941 --> 00:05:02.361 I often will say, your voice is like a wind instrument. 00:05:02.391 --> 00:05:05.901 The more air you put through it, the more you can do with it. 00:05:06.171 --> 00:05:09.441 The limited voice work that I do, I recommend to my students and the people 00:05:09.441 --> 00:05:15.201 I coach, that reading out loud can be a tool to help because it mimics speaking 00:05:15.201 --> 00:05:19.731 out loud, but it gives you a little bit more cognitive bandwidth to pay attention 00:05:19.731 --> 00:05:22.671 to breath, because I don't have to think of the words, I'm reading them. 00:05:23.151 --> 00:05:25.101 Patsy Rodenburg: Read out loud, absolutely. 00:05:25.341 --> 00:05:26.391 Here's another trick though. 00:05:26.721 --> 00:05:31.251 So if you stand with your book, maybe, you're reading out loud, and you're 00:05:31.251 --> 00:05:34.881 holding the book up so that you're not looking down, which is not useful. 00:05:35.031 --> 00:05:39.621 And if you hold the book with one hand and stand against a wall and 00:05:39.621 --> 00:05:44.116 gently push with your other arm, which engages the breath just like it 00:05:44.116 --> 00:05:45.466 did when you were pushing the table. 00:05:45.676 --> 00:05:46.696 You'll feel the breath. 00:05:46.966 --> 00:05:52.036 Now, take a breath and read out sending your voice to a point just above eye 00:05:52.036 --> 00:05:57.376 line, and then the voice not only leaves you, but it grows in strength. 00:05:57.886 --> 00:06:01.396 Most voices I meet, there's nothing wrong with them. 00:06:01.546 --> 00:06:05.746 They can be improved, Matt, but they're just rusty and dusty. 00:06:05.926 --> 00:06:07.426 They're not used, you know? 00:06:07.841 --> 00:06:10.691 Matt Abrahams: I often tell people, in my mind I'm amazingly eloquent, but when 00:06:10.691 --> 00:06:12.641 I open up my mouth, I'm not as lucky. 00:06:12.941 --> 00:06:14.951 You said several things there that really stand out to me. 00:06:14.951 --> 00:06:16.541 The voices you meet. 00:06:16.631 --> 00:06:21.191 I love that idea that we are our voice and we meet the person, but the voice 00:06:21.191 --> 00:06:25.691 they bring, and I like this idea of being generous enough to let your voice out. 00:06:25.751 --> 00:06:28.001 Your voice is a gift and you're giving it to the world. 00:06:28.121 --> 00:06:30.371 I want to get very tactical and practical here. 00:06:30.491 --> 00:06:35.021 Many people I know feel that their voice is quiet, they speak quiet. 00:06:35.206 --> 00:06:38.326 You said something that made me wonder, you said visualize your 00:06:38.326 --> 00:06:41.296 voice going out over your eye line. 00:06:41.476 --> 00:06:46.096 I imagine, like an athlete warms up, that there are some things we 00:06:46.096 --> 00:06:48.316 can do to help warm up our voice. 00:06:48.316 --> 00:06:52.966 I often marvel that people think they can go from silence to vocal 00:06:52.966 --> 00:06:54.706 brilliance without warming up. 00:06:54.881 --> 00:06:58.636 Do you have a favorite warmup activity or two that you could share 00:06:58.636 --> 00:07:00.316 that we could practice perhaps? 00:07:00.676 --> 00:07:02.146 Patsy Rodenburg: I'd get somebody standing. 00:07:02.146 --> 00:07:05.776 Of course, you stand, you feel, you stretch a bit. 00:07:05.986 --> 00:07:07.306 You let the shoulders go. 00:07:07.516 --> 00:07:12.166 You might flop over to one side and breathe, the, the rib cage starts working. 00:07:12.166 --> 00:07:14.326 The rib cage gets very rusty, very quickly. 00:07:14.656 --> 00:07:17.236 Do both sides so that we just get that. 00:07:17.236 --> 00:07:19.846 Very gentle, silent breaths. 00:07:20.176 --> 00:07:23.536 So if you breathe quietly, you'll be amazed how wonderful 00:07:23.536 --> 00:07:24.496 it feels in the throat. 00:07:24.496 --> 00:07:25.186 It's open. 00:07:25.336 --> 00:07:27.886 And the other one, which is great, is to give yourself a hug. 00:07:28.116 --> 00:07:32.406 Just flop over a bit from the waist with your arms up against your chest, and in 00:07:32.406 --> 00:07:36.876 that position, breathe in and out and you will open the back of the rib cage. 00:07:37.176 --> 00:07:41.856 I have to say most people today don't even think that the back of the rib cage 00:07:41.856 --> 00:07:44.526 is important, but we know it organically. 00:07:44.526 --> 00:07:48.621 So that if you get those muscles working and then first thing 00:07:48.621 --> 00:07:52.131 in the morning, you have to get the breath underneath the voice. 00:07:52.131 --> 00:07:53.571 So here's an image. 00:07:53.601 --> 00:07:56.781 I mean, you are an athlete, you know these things, to throw the voice. 00:07:56.781 --> 00:08:01.101 So if you can throw a ball, if you just breathe in, there's a suspension and you 00:08:01.101 --> 00:08:05.061 throw the ball on the breath, just like you did when you were pushing against 00:08:05.061 --> 00:08:05.971 the wall, you're feeling the breath. 00:08:06.676 --> 00:08:11.416 If you can do that and hum to a point, so you are just warming up 00:08:11.416 --> 00:08:13.306 the support of the breath, humming, 00:08:15.646 --> 00:08:17.866 very light, and you can play all over the play. 00:08:17.941 --> 00:08:21.046 Ma, ma, ma ma, ma ma. You can play with your voice and you are trying to get a 00:08:21.046 --> 00:08:26.056 buzz on the lips, which is the physical sign that your voice is coming forward. 00:08:26.326 --> 00:08:29.311 Most people today, their voice is stuck back down the throat. 00:08:29.701 --> 00:08:30.841 So they're mumbling down there. 00:08:31.441 --> 00:08:34.321 And if the voice is stuck down the throat, you can't speak clearly 00:08:34.321 --> 00:08:37.711 because the speech muscles can't feel the energy of the voice. 00:08:38.161 --> 00:08:42.601 Keep the breath, keep the idea of it leaving you, and then maybe 00:08:42.601 --> 00:08:45.991 on an, Ooh, that's a lovely way of getting the voice forward. 00:08:46.561 --> 00:08:49.531 Ooh, just bringing your lips. 00:08:49.891 --> 00:08:53.971 And literally, if you did that for a few minutes and then you spoke a bit of text 00:08:53.971 --> 00:08:58.816 out aloud or if you are having a difficult conversation, practice it out loud. 00:08:59.206 --> 00:09:03.166 Walk around the house with purpose, with your presence. 00:09:03.466 --> 00:09:04.966 Walk around, looking around. 00:09:05.236 --> 00:09:08.956 Look outside a window, breathe, and practice what you have to say. 00:09:09.256 --> 00:09:10.306 Practice out loud. 00:09:11.011 --> 00:09:12.061 Matt Abrahams: Thank you so much. 00:09:12.061 --> 00:09:18.001 I have heard of vocal warmups where you buzz your lips and puff out air, 00:09:18.181 --> 00:09:21.451 but I have never heard of working with the body, stretching the body. 00:09:21.451 --> 00:09:24.931 I like just leaning to the side, opening up the ribs, leaning 00:09:24.931 --> 00:09:26.131 forward, hugging yourself. 00:09:26.191 --> 00:09:29.941 Very useful and I like that idea of visualizing, pulling the voice 00:09:29.946 --> 00:09:31.771 forward so we're not mumbling. 00:09:32.101 --> 00:09:35.871 Patsy Rodenburg: What I'm doing now is I'm just imagining the voice projected out. 00:09:35.871 --> 00:09:40.321 It's not pushed, it's just you let it out and within a few days 00:09:40.321 --> 00:09:41.461 you will feel the difference. 00:09:41.791 --> 00:09:43.831 This is the simple stuff that people forget. 00:09:43.831 --> 00:09:45.031 They want to get onto the speech. 00:09:45.031 --> 00:09:47.431 Speech is the last thing in the chain. 00:09:48.001 --> 00:09:51.571 So once you've warmed up your body and your breath and your voice, you 00:09:51.571 --> 00:09:54.571 can start moving your mouth about a bit, but these muscles will tune up 00:09:54.571 --> 00:09:58.171 very quickly as long as they've got the voice and the breath behind them. 00:09:58.681 --> 00:10:01.021 Matt Abrahams: Yet again, you are emphasizing the connection 00:10:01.021 --> 00:10:03.211 of body, breath, and voice. 00:10:03.751 --> 00:10:06.751 I'd like to transition to talk about physical presence, something 00:10:06.751 --> 00:10:08.251 I know is very important to you. 00:10:08.401 --> 00:10:12.301 What advice do you have for anyone wishing to improve their physical 00:10:12.301 --> 00:10:13.861 presence in how they communicate? 00:10:14.641 --> 00:10:16.771 Patsy Rodenburg: I think the physical presence of the human being is 00:10:16.771 --> 00:10:18.121 the most important thing we have. 00:10:18.211 --> 00:10:21.991 We don't do anything well in life unless we put our full presence on it, but 00:10:21.991 --> 00:10:25.951 it's, if you talk to anthropologists, what made us so powerful on the 00:10:25.951 --> 00:10:27.841 planet is that we could build teams. 00:10:28.381 --> 00:10:33.091 A team doesn't exist until everyone is present, and presence is having 00:10:33.121 --> 00:10:37.291 an energy connecting to the world around you, and we all have it. 00:10:37.321 --> 00:10:39.361 It's the survival thing that we do. 00:10:39.481 --> 00:10:45.876 But presence is an outward focus, not on yourself, but to something else. 00:10:46.116 --> 00:10:48.486 And it's what we do when we walk in the countryside. 00:10:48.636 --> 00:10:52.746 We become present because we look at a tree, or a bird in a tree. 00:10:53.106 --> 00:10:54.576 That's what art is supposed to do. 00:10:54.576 --> 00:10:56.526 It's supposed to bring us back to our presence. 00:10:56.526 --> 00:10:57.576 We go to the theater. 00:10:57.846 --> 00:11:01.746 The actor has to be present, the ensemble is present, and they help 00:11:01.746 --> 00:11:05.766 bring us back, as Shakespeare says, to be or not to be, that is the question. 00:11:05.976 --> 00:11:06.876 That is the question. 00:11:07.416 --> 00:11:10.611 And so I believe we're all born fully present. 00:11:10.641 --> 00:11:13.851 Most of us, very few people on the planet haven't got presence, 00:11:13.851 --> 00:11:15.201 so we have to refind it. 00:11:15.741 --> 00:11:19.311 I started this in the seventies and I created something called the three circles 00:11:19.311 --> 00:11:23.241 of energy because I found people were saying, oh, that actor has it and that 00:11:23.241 --> 00:11:24.801 one doesn't have it, which is rubbish. 00:11:24.801 --> 00:11:25.521 We all have it. 00:11:26.031 --> 00:11:29.931 So what I talk about in presence is if we understand where we take 00:11:29.931 --> 00:11:31.671 our presence away from ourselves. 00:11:31.821 --> 00:11:33.141 And that's first circle. 00:11:33.351 --> 00:11:36.166 First circle people you will often see it in their body. 00:11:36.166 --> 00:11:37.906 They're pulling their presence away. 00:11:38.326 --> 00:11:42.856 They're looking down, they're, shallow breaths, so they're going into a 00:11:42.856 --> 00:11:45.316 little shell and the voice follows. 00:11:45.316 --> 00:11:48.886 So I'm going to do a voice of first circle when everything falls back. 00:11:49.336 --> 00:11:52.426 So instead of the voice going out, is falling back. 00:11:52.666 --> 00:11:55.306 We can work in all sorts of ways on presence, but I would 00:11:55.306 --> 00:11:58.096 ask people to do exactly what I've talked about in the voice. 00:11:58.366 --> 00:12:03.906 And look out to the world and make sure that they're not in first 00:12:03.906 --> 00:12:07.476 circle, which is that pulling back, I used to call it denial. 00:12:07.716 --> 00:12:10.656 I used to call second circle a state of readiness. 00:12:10.836 --> 00:12:14.196 So any athlete I'd work with, I can get them immediately present 00:12:14.196 --> 00:12:16.416 because they know that they have to be present to win the game. 00:12:16.721 --> 00:12:21.371 Third circle is when people are bluffing and they push out and you'll see third 00:12:21.371 --> 00:12:24.641 person energy pushing out their chest. 00:12:24.641 --> 00:12:28.151 They're too loud, that you meet at a party and they're looking beyond 00:12:28.151 --> 00:12:29.861 you, that they're not with you. 00:12:29.921 --> 00:12:33.761 So the most powerful thing we can do in communication is stay present 00:12:33.761 --> 00:12:35.561 with somebody, present with a group. 00:12:35.621 --> 00:12:39.911 And when it works and people become present with us, we have an exchange. 00:12:40.241 --> 00:12:43.391 You can't ever say anything important to somebody unless you 00:12:43.391 --> 00:12:44.711 are present and they're present. 00:12:45.001 --> 00:12:51.091 So we practice every day being present and you can by just sitting, 00:12:51.091 --> 00:12:56.131 breathing to a point, and looking at something across the room, or imagine 00:12:56.131 --> 00:12:59.131 doing something that you do very well and you'll realize you're present. 00:12:59.131 --> 00:13:00.841 If you drive very well, you are present. 00:13:00.901 --> 00:13:02.551 If you, crafts people are present. 00:13:02.701 --> 00:13:05.581 You don't make a great table without putting your presence into it. 00:13:05.791 --> 00:13:11.751 And we can physically say to ourselves, look, I've just pulled back on my heels. 00:13:11.871 --> 00:13:13.641 My shoulders are rounded. 00:13:13.791 --> 00:13:18.261 My sternum has collapsed, my head, and my breath is very shallow, and I've 00:13:18.261 --> 00:13:20.511 just absented myself from the world. 00:13:20.901 --> 00:13:24.441 Matt Abrahams: I like this notion of the circles and that the happy medium is 00:13:24.441 --> 00:13:27.431 in between the pulling and the pushing. 00:13:27.521 --> 00:13:29.826 It seems to me that it starts with awareness. 00:13:29.856 --> 00:13:32.736 You have to have that awareness of where are you in that moment, 00:13:33.126 --> 00:13:36.726 and certainly different emotions, different situations might cause you 00:13:36.726 --> 00:13:39.996 to start in one place, but once you have that awareness, you can move. 00:13:39.996 --> 00:13:43.386 And it sounds to me that we can check in with our bodies, that there are 00:13:43.386 --> 00:13:47.736 physical tells of where we are to bring us more to that neutral place. 00:13:47.916 --> 00:13:49.956 Patsy Rodenburg: It's about generosity and curiosity. 00:13:49.956 --> 00:13:53.116 If you are curious and you're generous, you are generally present. 00:13:53.286 --> 00:13:55.476 Now, the thing that you've said that's so important. 00:13:55.976 --> 00:13:59.816 Is that the physicality that we're talking about that stops the breath and 00:13:59.816 --> 00:14:06.056 the voice, either pulling away in first circle or pushing out in third, that 00:14:06.056 --> 00:14:09.146 stops us being aware of our presence. 00:14:09.476 --> 00:14:10.976 It cuts us off from the world. 00:14:11.401 --> 00:14:13.321 Matt Abrahams: When you and I very first chatted, and it was a 00:14:13.321 --> 00:14:17.101 lovely first chat we had, you said something that really stuck with me. 00:14:17.101 --> 00:14:21.091 You told me your thoughts on how important leveraging the space 00:14:21.151 --> 00:14:24.001 around us is for our communication. 00:14:24.241 --> 00:14:27.391 Most of us think of communication as getting what I have in my head 00:14:27.391 --> 00:14:31.141 into your head, but the space in which we do it and how we leverage 00:14:31.141 --> 00:14:33.031 that space can be really important. 00:14:33.031 --> 00:14:35.581 Can you share some insights on why we should pay attention to 00:14:35.581 --> 00:14:37.201 our communication environment? 00:14:37.981 --> 00:14:41.191 Patsy Rodenburg: Because, A, we're talking about our physical energy, 00:14:41.191 --> 00:14:43.021 which is a physical energy around us. 00:14:43.666 --> 00:14:47.906 We have a problem in our design is that we haven't got 360 sight, 00:14:47.926 --> 00:14:50.326 so we do have to feel around us. 00:14:50.596 --> 00:14:53.476 So when you are speaking to people, you have to be aware 00:14:53.476 --> 00:14:55.216 of their space and your space. 00:14:55.516 --> 00:14:59.686 Now, that could also be making sure that you sit in a place 00:14:59.686 --> 00:15:00.736 where everyone can see you. 00:15:00.736 --> 00:15:04.816 It's a simple stagecraft, but you have to have the sense that there's 00:15:04.816 --> 00:15:09.451 space and breath around you and everyone for them to feel safe enough. 00:15:09.601 --> 00:15:14.221 We talk about a safe space, whether any space is safe, but the leader who 00:15:14.221 --> 00:15:18.811 allows everyone their space, and that we can all see each other and recognize 00:15:18.811 --> 00:15:24.071 each other is a very good leader and has a chance to make people feel at ease. 00:15:24.441 --> 00:15:26.071 It's the physical space around us. 00:15:26.071 --> 00:15:29.611 And then we get into stagecraft when, what is the best place to stand? 00:15:29.911 --> 00:15:33.511 What is the best place that, you see people giving keynotes and they're 00:15:33.511 --> 00:15:38.731 standing, and actually, you know, if there's 500 people, 50 can't see them 00:15:38.821 --> 00:15:40.321 because they're not in the right place. 00:15:40.561 --> 00:15:44.131 Now, that doesn't mean to say you can't walk around, but you've got to establish 00:15:44.131 --> 00:15:50.026 things and you have to establish a safety, in a way, within your space. 00:15:50.206 --> 00:15:51.286 Where am I sitting? 00:15:51.346 --> 00:15:52.756 Am I looking down at you? 00:15:53.026 --> 00:15:54.016 Am I doing this? 00:15:54.016 --> 00:15:56.866 You know, I, I say to teachers, do you know that most of 00:15:56.986 --> 00:15:58.156 the students can't see you? 00:15:58.486 --> 00:15:59.806 And you're wondering why they're bored? 00:16:00.076 --> 00:16:01.336 So those are the sorts of things. 00:16:01.336 --> 00:16:04.336 So it's our physical presence, which does have space. 00:16:04.546 --> 00:16:08.161 And when somebody enters it without permission, it can be scary. 00:16:08.221 --> 00:16:11.641 And when we're in second circle with our space and we're seeing 00:16:11.641 --> 00:16:13.651 each other, we have equality. 00:16:13.771 --> 00:16:17.731 First circle people by pulling back, they're not necessarily inferior, 00:16:17.731 --> 00:16:19.561 but they're signaling inferiority. 00:16:19.651 --> 00:16:22.921 Third circle people, they're pushing their space and they're 00:16:22.921 --> 00:16:24.721 taking up too much space. 00:16:25.141 --> 00:16:27.331 They're signaling superiority. 00:16:27.451 --> 00:16:30.661 So we have to have a regard for each other's space, 00:16:30.871 --> 00:16:32.221 because then we can be equal. 00:16:32.626 --> 00:16:36.286 Matt Abrahams: Thinking about how space and our use of space helps 00:16:36.286 --> 00:16:37.966 communicate things is really important. 00:16:38.146 --> 00:16:41.266 I have a very particular, uh, instance that came to mind. 00:16:41.266 --> 00:16:44.896 I was coaching a very senior leader of a company everybody has heard of, and 00:16:44.896 --> 00:16:48.556 he was up on stage presenting, and he had something very serious to say they 00:16:48.556 --> 00:16:50.386 were going to do a reduction in force. 00:16:50.386 --> 00:16:51.856 People were going to lose their jobs. 00:16:52.006 --> 00:16:54.976 And totally spontaneously, this was not rehearsed 'cause I worked 00:16:54.976 --> 00:16:58.731 with him on his content, he stepped off the stage and walked into the 00:16:58.731 --> 00:17:00.291 audience to deliver the message. 00:17:00.441 --> 00:17:03.681 And while the message was not pleasing, people were not happy to 00:17:03.681 --> 00:17:05.901 hear the news, it felt different. 00:17:06.051 --> 00:17:10.101 There was a connection that happened in that moment when he walked off the stage. 00:17:10.161 --> 00:17:12.351 It was not inauthentic or disingenuine. 00:17:12.351 --> 00:17:16.431 I think he really felt that in that moment, where you put yourself says a lot. 00:17:16.821 --> 00:17:19.606 Patsy Rodenburg: Well, that's a wonderful example of him realizing 00:17:19.606 --> 00:17:21.741 that he had to meet them closer. 00:17:22.186 --> 00:17:24.466 Matt Abrahams: We have to think about it and, and we need to avoid 00:17:24.466 --> 00:17:28.246 the lecterns and podiums that cause us to be back from the audience. 00:17:28.516 --> 00:17:31.216 Patsy Rodenburg: Which takes, causes us into third circle and masked. 00:17:31.216 --> 00:17:32.476 We, we become masked. 00:17:33.976 --> 00:17:35.986 Matt Abrahams: Patsy, before we end, I like to ask three 00:17:35.986 --> 00:17:37.636 questions of everybody I interview. 00:17:37.636 --> 00:17:41.176 One I create just for you and the others are similar across everybody. 00:17:41.176 --> 00:17:41.926 Are you up for that? 00:17:42.016 --> 00:17:42.316 Patsy Rodenburg: Yep. 00:17:42.821 --> 00:17:47.581 Matt Abrahams: So across your varied experiences, I am sure you have worked 00:17:47.581 --> 00:17:51.031 with many people who have anxiety around whatever they're doing, a doctor 00:17:51.031 --> 00:17:54.151 giving bad news, uh, somebody giving a keynote, that's really important. 00:17:54.391 --> 00:17:57.361 Actors getting out on stage and taking risks that they haven't. 00:17:57.931 --> 00:18:02.311 Do you have two or three things that you can quickly share that help 00:18:02.311 --> 00:18:07.021 people feel more confident in their communication in those circumstances? 00:18:07.411 --> 00:18:09.241 Patsy Rodenburg: Number one, we've talked about it. 00:18:09.751 --> 00:18:10.696 Try to stand up. 00:18:11.386 --> 00:18:12.466 Feel the floor. 00:18:12.556 --> 00:18:18.616 Release your shoulders, and before you go into the space, breathe deeply and slowly. 00:18:19.276 --> 00:18:20.296 Keep that going. 00:18:20.596 --> 00:18:24.406 Feel the suspension of the breath, which is I breathe in just that 00:18:24.406 --> 00:18:26.086 moment before you throw a ball. 00:18:26.596 --> 00:18:32.266 And this sounds counterintuitive, as you go into any space, look 00:18:32.266 --> 00:18:36.176 at people in the eyes, and the more you look the calmer you get. 00:18:36.741 --> 00:18:42.891 You look at people, you breathe, you take your time, you don't rush to begin with. 00:18:43.041 --> 00:18:47.121 The rushing will kick off even more adrenaline, and you'll get more panicked. 00:18:47.601 --> 00:18:52.341 If you have a chance before you go into a space, or even if you are in a space, 00:18:52.341 --> 00:18:56.961 you can reset by thinking, I'll just stop for a moment and take another breath. 00:18:57.171 --> 00:18:59.421 I, I promise you, I, it will help. 00:18:59.421 --> 00:19:02.961 I can't get rid of the nerves, but the nerves don't become debilitating. 00:19:03.331 --> 00:19:05.821 Matt Abrahams: And I think the anxiety and nervousness can actually help you. 00:19:05.821 --> 00:19:09.271 It gives you energy and focus, but I like this idea of the physicality 00:19:09.271 --> 00:19:12.281 of the deep breath and then the connecting through eye contact, while 00:19:12.301 --> 00:19:14.971 I agree, sounds counterintuitive, for me, it works really well. 00:19:14.971 --> 00:19:18.151 Because I realize these are normal people who just want to be and get 00:19:18.151 --> 00:19:19.421 some value from what I have to say. 00:19:19.846 --> 00:19:23.281 Patsy Rodenburg: And then I will also say, worry about the 00:19:23.281 --> 00:19:24.931 audience rather than yourself. 00:19:25.126 --> 00:19:28.966 A relief that you can worry about them understanding you 00:19:29.236 --> 00:19:30.136 and they'll give it back. 00:19:30.136 --> 00:19:34.066 The more generous you are in life in these ways, the more you get back. 00:19:34.456 --> 00:19:36.796 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for that generous answer and for giving us 00:19:36.796 --> 00:19:38.656 very specific actionable ideas. 00:19:38.776 --> 00:19:42.766 Question number two, and you have worked with so many, I'll be very curious, who 00:19:42.766 --> 00:19:45.526 is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:19:46.051 --> 00:19:47.551 Patsy Rodenburg: Michelle Obama comes to mind. 00:19:47.881 --> 00:19:48.901 She takes her time. 00:19:48.901 --> 00:19:49.711 She's listening. 00:19:49.711 --> 00:19:53.581 She's with you, she's with the audience, and she's not 00:19:53.581 --> 00:19:56.011 frightened of being disliked. 00:19:56.161 --> 00:19:59.671 One of the most off-putting things is people wanting to be liked all the time. 00:20:00.376 --> 00:20:01.906 Matt Abrahams: Final question for you, Patsy. 00:20:02.026 --> 00:20:07.936 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:20:08.266 --> 00:20:10.216 Patsy Rodenburg: Prepare an embodied way. 00:20:10.546 --> 00:20:15.196 Practice it, knowing that it won't be verbatim, practice. 00:20:15.766 --> 00:20:20.596 And again, it's the curiosity and the generosity that you bring into the space. 00:20:20.971 --> 00:20:23.011 Matt Abrahams: How wonderful of a recipe. 00:20:23.101 --> 00:20:27.361 It's about preparing, practicing, being present with 00:20:27.361 --> 00:20:29.311 your generosity and curiosity. 00:20:29.431 --> 00:20:31.681 A great recipe and great advice. 00:20:31.771 --> 00:20:33.601 And Patsy, thank you so much. 00:20:33.661 --> 00:20:39.631 You have done an amazing job of being very generous and helping us, not only awaken 00:20:39.631 --> 00:20:44.401 our voices and our presence, but awaken our minds to new ways of communicating 00:20:44.461 --> 00:20:45.991 and really connecting with others. 00:20:46.291 --> 00:20:46.861 Thank you. 00:20:47.406 --> 00:20:48.086 Patsy Rodenburg: Absolutely, my pleasure. 00:20:50.851 --> 00:20:53.011 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:20:53.011 --> 00:20:55.651 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:20:55.951 --> 00:20:58.411 To learn more about nonverbal presence, please listen to 00:20:58.411 --> 00:21:00.811 episode 137 with Dana Carney. 00:21:01.411 --> 00:21:06.631 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:21:06.931 --> 00:21:08.611 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:21:08.911 --> 00:21:11.101 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:21:11.881 --> 00:21:15.241 Please find us on YouTube and 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