Convene Podcast Transcript
Convene Interview, ep. 24

*Note: the transcript is AI generated, excuse typos and inaccuracies

Magdalina Atanassova: This is the Convene Podcast.
In today’s episode, deputy editor Barbara Palmer talks with Nir Hindie, entrepreneur, educator, and creator of the Business Artistry leadership approach ahead of his keynote at Convening LATAM. When he’s not teaching at IE Business School or mentoring at Harvard and MIT, Nir is advising executives around the world on how to build cultures where creativity doesn’t just solve problems — it makes things matter.
In this conversation, Barbara and Nir explore what an artist mindset can teach event leaders and organizations about experience design, emotional resonance, and human connection — why artistry goes beyond creativity, how events can become platforms for experimentation and insight, and what it means to design moments people actually remember.
We start now.
Barbara Palmer: Hello. Hi, I am here with Nir Hindie.
He is the founder of the Artian and also he developed a term called Business artistry and he is an instructor and an experimenter and an artist in business.
If you would just tell us a little bit about yourself and the journey that brought you here.
Nir Hindie: Sure. First of all, thank you and I'm happy to be here and grateful for the opportunity.
So as you rightly so I kind of develop a philosophy that I call Business Artistry. And thank you for giving me the title of an artist.
I still don't consider myself an artist, but I'm on the path maybe with the support of my friends.
Let me kind of maybe give you why I'm kind of sitting on this intersection.
For me, the journey started as a kid that I really loved the creative world, the arts, the photography, architecture. But I also loved entrepreneurship and technology. But society kind of channel us to choose what are we.
I chose the path of entrepreneurship and business.
I kind of at certain point came back to my relationship with artists and very quickly I started to see that they think in this in a similar way to the way entrepreneurs think.
And I was curious why did we separate those disciplines, the business and the arts? And I kind of embarked on a personal journey to try to discover how art impact business.
Because the other way is much clearer. And very quickly I realized that the most important learning that I had is that art is not an object.
Art is a way of thinking.
The object is the end result of this thinking.
And when I started to dive into what art might be, what it could be, what it represent,
I saw a lot of similarities in how we can bring it into business. And the two ways that I try to bring it into business is one innovation, how artists actually can be collaborators in technological innovation.
But from the other aspect of it is that leadership, how can we grow more creative Leaders that not only focus on the creative part, but also on the meaning part.
Barbara Palmer: Right.
You know, we're here in the events industry,
which is also a place where I think there's entrepreneurship and innovation.
And you are going to be at convening the Tomb in May.
And could you just talk a little bit about that intersection of a space like an event and how the artist mindset would fit in there?
Nir Hindie: Yeah,
I mean, for me, events, from very early on in my career, event became kind of a platform for distributing ideas. So even when I started to kind of experiment with this concept of artistic thinking in business and technology,
I collaborated with the Google campus for entrepreneurs here in Madrid and started to host events, et cetera.
So from one aspect, events were always kind of a platform for me to try and experiment and expose people and for different ideas.
And I always try to go to places that didn't expect me so to bring artists into startup conferences,
to bring artistic intervention into technology spaces and that way to kind of create this friction and intrigue, curiosity.
But the other aspect that I see, events,
for me, on a personal level, event is something that's supposed to be experiential.
It's not about the content. I mean, obviously content is important.
It's not to say that content is not important, but with the world that we are living today, you can listen to everyone in any place from your home computer. You don't have to go to an event.
So the question started that why do I go to an event?
And if you start to think about the similarities between an event,
for that matter, and artistic spaces, you will see, or art is art as a space in general.
Both of those worlds are for me, driven by experience.
And I think that when I look at artists, there is so much to learn when it comes to experience.
The way they think about the experience. What do they want you to feel? How do they want you to leave the space? How do they want you to interact with the work?
It's like everything is experience driven.
And then obviously part of this experience is the content itself, which is the artwork.
So I think there are a lot of opportunities for kind of exchanging ideas,
learning from each other and actually see how can I take a platform that people come together and make it memorable?
Barbara Palmer: When we think of conference spaces, we think maybe a little bit of like the rooms are empty usually and you then you bring something into the room.
What kind of experience will you be co creating or creating with the participants at convening the tomb?
Nir Hindie: So over here it will be more geared, I think about the ideas that I will share. Oftentimes, you know, when I'm invited to a business conference, nobody expect to hear about art in a business context.
Oftentimes the way to bring art into spaces is through the object itself and then it become decoration.
But the test that I offer very often to do is that if I'll take the piece or if I'll take the intervention and nothing changes, then it means it's decoration.
But if I'll take the piece or I'll take the intervention and something change for the experience of the participant, then it means that we were able, it was meaningful.
What I'm trying to do when I come to the event spaces or any event that I'm being invited to speak at,
is actually to provoke different questions and let them leave the session with what if actually we do X or we connect Y and B?
So for me, it will be much more caring of one,
reminding them the importance of creativity and artistry in this industry.
Second is to kind of raise questions about how we do things.
Can we even change the way we do things?
And third, maybe kind of equip them with something that they can lean into their own, for that matter,
creative interest.
Barbara Palmer: I'm thinking about conference organizers and I feel like the idea of bringing art into what they do is a new idea and maybe their mind immediately goes to the objects.
Like, oh, if I'm going to bring art, I'll have an art exhibit which might be part of it.
If you could talk a little bit more about how to think about art as a conference organizer and how you can do that in a way that is manageable.
Nir Hindie: What is the first question that you have in mind when you start to think about your event?
An artist will start and ask, okay, how do I want people to live and what I want them to feel in business? Oftentimes the question that we start is that, okay, how do I make it the more efficient, the more kind of seamless, the more whatever it is, I think the power artists will work with what I want you to feel and will work backward.
What do I need to do in order to achieve it?
And oftentimes I feel that in business, what we do is that we are so focused on the logistics and, you know, the content and the food, which. And the security, which are all important.
But we don't ask ourselves the simple question. When participant, a human being leave this spot or they leave this place, what do we want them to feel? So the first kind of maybe tool or way of thinking like an artist is change your Departure question,
that's one thing.
Barbara Palmer: Okay, all right.
Nir Hindie: And then I can suggest maybe a tactic to think about it. So,
you know, when you are in the arts, when you learn how to draw,
they.
They teach you techniques, how to see the world. Because at the end, drawing is not about drawing. It's about.
It's exercising observation.
And oftentimes we are being, for that matter, to draw a chair. But the moment I tell you to draw a chair, you have a mental model how a chair should look like.
So in order to try to break this mental model, they will tell you in your drawing class,
try to draw all the spaces around the chair.
Don't draw the chair. Draw the spaces around the chair.
And oftentimes I recommend using the same.
When I say successful event, immediately people have in their mind what successful event is.
But maybe if we will focus on the question of what unsuccessful event is,
we will actually see blind spot that we miss when we only focusing on what we have.
So those are kind of two ways that I will recommend you to. One is where you start with which question you start. And one is that which tool do you use to observe what you're actually doing?
Barbara Palmer: You teach graduate students at business school. You consult with executives of major companies.
So I'm very curious about the events industry as a platform.
What is the potential in your mind for the events industry through asking these better questions and creating these experiences that create change? What, what do you think is the potential for the events platform?
Nir Hindie: I think first of all, they will increase the value in the. The eyes of the business industry. You know, so people won't look at.
At events just as a marketing tool,
but maybe businesses will look at events as a place when what if questions can be asked that maybe the events can be a place that different disciplines interact,
that events that people that don't meet each other in the organization actually meet.
So I think that if we will shift the focus from just this is an event for content or this is an event for networking, and maybe there is an opportunity to position the event as a platform for experimental thoughts, whether it is around innovation,
whether. Whether it's around collaboration between different stakeholder disciplines, et cetera.
So I see it as more as kind of, how do we make an event as part of a business strategy and not just for that matter,
something we do?
Barbara Palmer: I know that when you're talking about art, you're not just talking about visual art. You're talking about all, like,
theater and narratives.
And I wonder, do you see parallels between how artists approach creating a work of Art an event.
Designers look at creating an event.
Nir Hindie: I think this is a challenging question because I think that every artist has their own way to kind of work or create their own work.
I do think that again, if we look at the event as kind of the vehicle for the learning or for the inspiration or for the kind of revelation.
So you can definitely think about what is the. The same kind of journey that I want to take a participant through,
like, how do they live? And I think it goes back to the question that I kind of suggested the beginning. So when. When someone enter to this,
to an event, and I don't want to use the word space all the time because then we make event about space, but it can also be an online.
For that matter.
How do you enter to the.
The first email that you get when you are registering to the event? What is the even, you know, being playful with.
I'm just inventing now, you know, kind of funny gif that makes it joyful or even addressing questions about that. Many people often have that when they enter to the virtual room and they feel uncomfortable to open the camera.
How do you make them do that?
So I think that there is a lot of points that you can think.
One, how can I make you more comfortable? And sometimes how can I challenge you?
So I definitely see kind of a way to think about it, end to end.
What is the journey that I want you to go through?
Barbara Palmer: There's so much data now available about attendee experience.
And I know there's a big push towards like getting a lot of surveys and personalizing everything toward the attendee.
But when you're thinking about artists as creating, they often have like a personal vision.
Could you kind of address kind of the tension between trying to create an event that you think everybody might like or an event that's more like from a kind of a vision of an event?
Like, who are you creating this for?
Right.
Nir Hindie: I think this is the question that everyone need to start with,
who am I creating it for?
Do I try to make everyone happy with that or do I try. What is the purpose of the event? I mean, I think that to say that there is one size fits all will be kind of a mistake of the purpose of what event is.
I think every event should have an objective. And this is something that I guess the professional in the industry doing together with the client. And the moment you have clarity around that,
it's easier. I'm not saying easy. It's easier to try and kind of address it. You know, it's.
There are different kind of examples that not all of them. I want to share in this podcast. So I can still surprise everyone in the Convening LATAM at Quito that I will show how artists actually approached event with business companies and.
And it also a testimony for that matter to the business leader on the other side that they were, as you just said, they were willing to give up on the.
I want everyone to like it then to.
I want to inspire people and that's my creative vision.
Barbara Palmer: I love the idea of surprise, but also maybe the idea of like taking risks.
Nir Hindie: Yeah.
Barbara Palmer: And not being afraid of taking risks.
Nir Hindie: Yeah.
Maybe over here I can share one example that I had when I started to do the events,
I ran small events, obviously not big ones for to kind of expose people around the artistic thinking and its influence and its perception of what technology could be.
And just to give you an example, when I started to do that, everyone told me, Nir, you should do it in a gallery, in a museum, etc. And I said, no, no, no, no, I.
I don't want to do in gallery or museum because over there I will get the people that already believe in it. I was not looking for the believers, I was looking to the, for the curious, the people that not exposed to that.
But there might be interest over there.
So I started to host the events I was doing at the Google campus for entrepreneurs in Madrid. And then what happens is that you have someone going to a coffee and then suddenly they see sound installation that a group of artists that I invited and collabor actually installed and they simulated how a black hole in space might sound.
Now that's a moment that you have curiosity from people that never thought that they will come because yeah, okay, they are there to buy a coffee and then they have this chance to kind of drop in and see something that totally different so they are not feeling, they are losing their time.
We experiment with delivering and having discussion on topics that hard to grasp. So it involves experimentation, it involves risk taking,
it involves also willing to kind of step out of your comfort zone because every time I did an event I didn't know if I'm going to get 10 people or 150 people.
And I can't stress how anxious I was until, you know, the event ended because I didn't know who will show up.
Barbara Palmer: Right.
I'm thinking about like how the world has changed recently in the.
Just the proliferation of AI everywhere.
And I wanted to ask you,
does AI change the value of an artist mindset? What does AI change about art? If anything,
Nir Hindie: I'll tell You maybe, if you will allow me, I will answer it differently. I'll tell you what, AI doesn't change and maybe I will try to give an example over here for the listeners.
So before AI,
everyone that uses LinkedIn,
probably remember that there were, I don't know how many millions of people on this platform, but there were million voices.
Now when you go on LinkedIn, you have million users, but there is only one voice,
the AI voice.
Everyone uses AI, including myself, and everyone sounds like an AI.
So I think that, yes, AI help us to create content,
but it doesn't necessarily tell us what's meaningful for human.
It doesn't know how to keep who I am near. I'm not a native English, I do my mistakes. I'm not perfect and I have my own way. So AI flatten humanity,
it increase efficiency,
but it flattened the humanity.
And I think that,
that while AI help people like me to create more,
it requires from me to do a better job on curating,
to do a better job on making sure that it means something to someone,
that it is about humans. So, you know, it's like,
I think even more today there is a role for humans to play because a. Now that everyone has the access to those tools,
the output is very often the same.
This is the opportunity to actually, to bring your creativity, your perception of the world, your uniqueness.
Otherwise you are just someone you know among many others.
Barbara Palmer: Yeah, I see like a parallel there to like conferences that are like cookie cutters that like, you. Oh, I've been here before.
Everyone does it the same way.
And it seems like what you're suggesting is a way to like,
create something more human,
more, More emotional,
something that speaks more directly to individual humans.
Nir Hindie: Yeah.
Barbara Palmer: Is that, is that.
Nir Hindie: Yeah, 100%. You know, you use the right word, emotional. It's like,
this is for me the difference between creativity and artistry.
Because creativity, it's about problem solving, it's about new ideas, and you have very creative engineers and you have very creative lawyers and you have very creative business people.
But for me, creativity is not enough because creativity,
it's about this problem solving and new ideas, but artistry is about making meaning.
So, you know, you might have people that will be creative, but they will stop when they solve the problem. Artists will stop when it matters to someone.
And in this gap between. It works to. It matters is what you just said. Rightly so, Barbara, which is the emotional part?
That's why there are certain experiences that you have, whether it is the hotel that you go or the product that you Buy or the event that you, you attend that is memorable.
Most likely you won't remember the lecture or the content that you consumed over there, but you will remember certain moment that happened to you with someone.
Barbara Palmer: Right.
I'm thinking about like events organizers.
I have never met anyone busier and so I wonder if you could speak a little bit about what's the benefit to conference organizers to think this way. Is there an opportunity to do less?
Is there an opportunity to.
It just sounds like, oh, more.
This will take more resources.
Could you just talk a little bit how to how they might think about that in a way that makes it doable.
Nir Hindie: Listen, you know, when it comes to time management and task management,
I'm like, I'm a human like everyone else. I'm suffering from it as well.
I think it's a matter of where you want to put your focus on.
And sometimes it's not about doing more, it's about doing less.
You know, and sometimes you will say, okay, you know what, maybe not every event need to have all the 10 components that I think maybe certain events can have seven out of 10.
We tend to kind of rush to do more.
And nine out of 10 people will always offer what should we do more.
But there is one person, one out of 10 that will tell you what you should do less.
And I think that's a conversation worth having.
So one, what can you do less?
And second,
is that what where your focus is?
And I think if will people remind themselves is that the focus for that matter is the human experience leaving the the event?
Maybe that can be a good compass to start with.
But again, I'm not an event professional. It's just something I think about when I hosted the events I needed to also with the small budget that I had and the team that I had, how can we make it the most impactful event that we are able to achieve?
And I'm very happy to always kind of raise the bar for myself.
Barbara Palmer: You've talked about the mindset of the artist.
It just reminds me one thing that I always think when I think of artists, I think they have a lot of courage.
Like they, you know, they have a lot of self belief and courage. And I think when I think of events that I've gone to that have kind of stretched forward,
I feel like courage is part of the mix in there.
Nir Hindie: Yeah. I'll tell you, I think first of all, you know, it's like,
let's call it risk taking. You know, it's like, I mean maybe that's, that's Another word. I think it's also experimental approach. They are willing to try different things,
which I think is also important. And there is one thing that I think it's very important to say over here because you just asked me about more and more. For that matter,
one of the things that people I think don't realize is that how many constraints artists work with across the board. These are the people that have less access to resources than most of the business world and they are still able to build incredible experiences.
Which tells user that it's not only about resources and the spectacle.
Because you can say, okay, I want to bring the best lad screen to impress you,
but the fact that I impress you doesn't mean that I impacted you. I don't think it's the same.
There is the difference between the spectacle and the meaningful.
And that's why I want people to understand when I speak about artists, I give them all the respect because these are people that always working with less resources, less people, less money, less access, less licenses, less.
But still they are able to create experiences that,
you know, leave us at awe.
Barbara Palmer: I'm also thinking about failure.
Maybe like a way of thinking differently about failure. Like, oh, that was just another thing that. A way that that didn't work. I'll keep trying.
Nir Hindie: Yeah, listen, I'm coming from the business world and that's why when I give keynotes on these topics, I'm not for that matter, daydreaming about what business can and could not do.
But you can create an environment that you will say, okay, if at every event I do these 10 steps, can I allocate one step that I will try something new out of those 10,
maybe not everything needs to be 100% the same or 100% experimental.
Maybe we can do 95% the same and 5% experimental.
Is that a conversation worth having?
I think so,
because that's how you differentiate yourself.
Barbara Palmer: That's a great point. Yeah.
I'm just wondering, is there anything we haven't talked about that you would like to talk about? Just in terms of this intersection between art and business,
Nir Hindie: Even when we use the word business or events,
I prefer a different language. And I'll tell you why. Barbara. One of the things that I learned is that there is no such thing innovative and creative companies, or for that matter, innovative and creative events.
There are only innovative and creative people who build those companies, who manage those companies,
and there are only innovative and creative event managers or event directors that decide to do this innovative and creative event.
It's not about the noun,
the business,
the event,
the space.
It's about who activate them.
It's always about the people.
And I want people to remember that,
yes, creativity solved the problem, but don't stop at creativity because artistry, it's what evokes emotion.
And I think that, you know,
the pandemic kind of, even though we are six years after it, just showed how important events are for people,
this physical interaction.
Barbara Palmer: Yeah, I think that's a wonderful note to end on. Thank you for this conversation. I feel like I always think that when you're really shifting your mindset, things are a little harder to talk about at first.
So I appreciate this conversation to kind of wrestle with some of this.
Nir Hindie: I appreciate the opportunity to share it.
Barbara Palmer: All right, thanks.
Nir Hindie: Thank you, Barbara.
Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, thank you. Thank you.
Remember to subscribe to the Convene Podcast on your favorite listening platform to stay updated with our latest episodes. For further industry insights from the Convene team, head over to PCMA.org/convene. My name is Maggie. Stay inspired. Keep inspiring. And until next time.