Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
In this episode, you'll hear part two of my conversation with Patrick
Green, executive director and founding director of the Center for Engaged
Learning, teaching and Scholarship at Loyola University Chicago.
More links and information about today's conversation can be found on Digication's
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Full episodes of Digication Scholars Conversations can be found on
YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
I have found that people have done the portfolio work, sometimes their portfolio.
I mean, we obviously look at our portfolios, but what I have found
is that they are just so much more articulate in how to explain themselves
and sort of seeing what matters.
Yes.
As a matter of fact, we hear that time and time again from our students
when our students do portfolios.
They will report that they are able, in an interview, they are able to articulate.
Themselves, their skills, their experiences so much better because
they've worked on this portfolio.
They've shared and articulated in the portfolio, their
skills, their experiences.
They've curated it, right, so they've made meaning of it.
And then they walk into an interview situation or apply to a graduate or a
professional school, they can articulate this and they are leaps and bounds
ahead of other candidates because they've worked on a portfolio and we
hear that from students all the time.
They'll come back and they'll share with us, you know, that portfolio
I did, it helped me get this experience, it helped me get into
this graduate or professional school.
Um, it set me apart.
I went into this interview so much more prepared because of that portfolio.
So we know.
It has an impact.
But what's so interesting is the way it has an impact, it's not, it's
not that all of the sudden, uh, the, the portfolio got that experience.
It's that it enhanced their communication and meaning making of their skills
and their, um, you know, experiences and all of the different assignments.
It just completely.
Allowed them to communicate themselves better.
So I wanna switch a little bit.
We don't have to talk about portfolio the entire time, although
I would love with you, I feel I can just talk about it for hours.
Um, but, um, I wanna save, uh, just a little, you know, at least I wanna spend
some time on talking about, you know, experiential learning and community-based
learning, service learning, and so on.
Um, for those who might be listening and are not familiar with all of those
things, or maybe they've heard it, but you know, they won't personally,
um, you know, have those experience.
Or maybe some of us, you know?
They've never been exposed.
What do you th...
cos, that's your job.
That's your day-to-day.
What do you tell them?
What's so...
All about this things, why are they high-impact practice?
And how does that relate to portfolio, and the things that we talk about?
Yeah.
Thanks for that question.
So, you know, community-based learning or service learning, and I use those
terms, um, interchangeably, um, is a form of, uh, teaching and learning where, uh,
you engage students in the community.
Um, Doing some type of community-based work, whether it's direct service,
volunteer work, or indirectly working on a community project, then allowing
the students to reflect on that experience and connect it directly
back to whatever they're studying.
Uh, and so service learning and community-based learning for the past
three decades has been a really powerful form of teaching and learning because
not only has it brought students learning to life, so whatever they're
studying, um, has been brought to life.
It also has allowed.
The community to be seen as a really important player in
the educational enterprise.
So the community becomes a co-educator, uh, and by the community.
It could be a community organization, it could be members of a neighborhood,
um, or a nonprofit organization.
Uh, and the wisdom and experience and knowledge that resides in the community.
Is really brought to the forefront and as students are working with members
of the community or with a nonprofit organization, they're also addressing
the priorities of the community.
So what really makes service learning or community-based learning unique is it
emphasizes both the learning of students.
And the priorities of the community?
Uh, I think more broadly, the term experiential learning is really an
umbrella term for lots of different types of, um, teaching and learning.
And so service learning, community based learning would be an
example, but you also have.
Internships.
You also have, um, global experiences or study abroad experiences.
You also have undergraduate research.
So experiential learning tends to be just a broad term that
encompasses, um, an experience that students have, um, over time.
Uh, and then deep reflection on that experience.
Um, certainly, uh, assessment and evaluation of the experience.
Uh, and then.
Uh, I think with experiential learning, always connecting it back to the
topic at hand or the theme of, of the course, what, what is being studied.
Um, and the reason that that all of these types of experiential learning
are often referred to as high impact learning, again, just as I mentioned
with, with learning portfolios, is because it's about deep learning.
So learning that, um, transfers and is integrated over time.
And I think portfolios play a key role in that because of
that critical reflection piece.
So all of these types of high impact learning require critical
reflection and portfolios are one of the ideal, um, modalities for
that, that critical reflection.
Um, but my life's work has been really focused on creating community-based
learning, service learning, experiential learning opportunities for students.
Again, I think, you know, as, as you.
As at the beginning of our, our conversation, Jeff, you know,
I found my intersection, my passion at that intersection of
community and higher education.
Um, but at that intersection I also saw the, you know, the, the robust,
um, the cultural and social capital of the community along with the cultural
social capital, um, of the higher education and how both of those in.
In that intersection in working together could be elevated, um, and celebrated.
Um, and, and that's where knowledge can be co-created through community
engaged research or community based research, um, through community
engaged teaching and learning.
So for me, I found my passion.
I didn't have the words for any of this when I was going through it.
Right?
I, yeah, I had to go through several journeys before I even had the language
or the words to describe to you.
This is the work.
This is where my life passion is.
Community engaged teaching and learning and research.
Um, if you had asked me that, you know, uh, 20 years ago,
I didn't have that language.
Um, uh, and so for me it has been a journey as I discovered,
uh, some of my life passions.
It has been a journey for me to then also say I.
Oh, this is what I'm interested in and wanting to provide these opportunities,
um, for students, but also to provide these opportunities for faculty because
I think, obviously our goal is always student success and student learning.
But the way that we get there is actually by working closely with
faculty and enhancing the capacity of faculty in higher education, and
then of course working closely with our community partners and listening
closely and deeply to the community to say, what are those priorities?
What are your pressing needs?
What are the assets that you wanna celebrate and elevate?
And then how can we collaboratively address the world's wicked problems
in order to better our local communities and address, um, all
of these issues both locally, regionally, nationally, and globally?
I, I love that, and I want to, I wanna sort of look at it from a, from a, from
an angle that, That perhaps has been a, um, a challenge in higher education recent
years, um, higher education has been, um, under a lot of scrutiny and a lot of,
a huge microscope to, to try to, people trying to figure out, you know, this
whole idea of cost for higher education.
I think that there's no, I.
Arguing that higher education is expensive.
Um, what some people don't know is it's also expensive to run, to provide all
these services that you just talked about.
It's these, these things don't just run itself.
Um, could there be more efficient ways though?
I think that there might be, uh, but having all that said, one of
the things that people sometimes don't get, and I think that what
you said is really pointing me out, the fact that you are not coming to.
This college necessarily, just to get those listed skills for whatever
major that you happen to be, because you can kinda easily do that.
You can say, if you're gonna be an engineer, here is a list of skills
and sub skills, and we can sort of eventually list all of them.
It's a finite number.
It's a, maybe a huge list, but it's a finite number if it
divide 'em into little lessons.
The persons will get it, or they read enough books, they'll get
all of this stuff, you know?
And the same reason that we don't just say, well, stop going to school.
Just go to the library has everything.
Or now, in today's world, go to the internet, has everything,
go to YouTube, has everything.
Um, and in fact, what happens to society has now sort of reacted a little bit
by saying, Hey, here's some bootcamp.
Here's a a little, you know, Um, masterclass and this is how you
can learn how to do something.
You can just skip college.
And while I don't disagree that some of those things are really, actually
sometimes some of them are great at teaching certain skills that
higher education need to be, uh, you know, shouldn't be misunderstood.
That is only about acquiring those skills.
It's about those experiences.
It's also about this sort of, I love what you said about community and.
On one hand, you are creating the priorities and figuring out what
the priorities are in the community.
For the community.
You're also figuring it out for yourself.
Kind of like you figuring out my life's work is, is about this and that.
When does a student have an opportunity to do that?
If they just go to like this bootcamp, six week course?
Yeah.
They don't, you know, that's not what those.
But camps are afford, they're for something else.
Right.
And it's, it's not useless at all.
It's just not what higher education is about.
Right.
It's partially about that, but it's also about some other
fundamental part of development.
The human development.
Yeah.
You know, for themselves and for others.
Yeah.
Again, as you said, you know, higher education has been under
attack, it has been critiqued.
Um, And, and the value proposition of, of higher education and getting a higher
education degree has been questioned.
And we've seen that a lot in the past several years.
Um, and look, I, I have three kids, one in college, one about ready to go to
college, um, and the, my third, uh, a few years away yet, but will be as well.
And.
And here's what I have to say because I'm gonna speak from the lens of,
um, a, a scholar practitioner that works in higher education and a
parent, um, who's paying hefty bills.
Um, so I want to be really transparent here.
Um, I think the critiques around the value of a higher education degree is.
Um, actually around how it's being de defined and how
its value is being defined.
And I think it's being defined in a very narrow way if you're talking
about, um, uh, getting a job that is a narrow definition of the whole
educational enterprise, um, that has existed for hundreds of years.
And I would challenge that if it's being defined, um, in very
specific ways with skills and certifications, that is a very narrow.
Um, interpretation of the whole educational enterprise.
It's also a very narrow interpretation of learning and development, and
I would ask people to reflect on their own learning and development
before they would categorize, um, A degree or higher education.
Um, because if you just reflect on your own learning and development, um, then
that, that definition will broaden.
Uh, because higher education is truly about young adulthood.
Um, Learning and development or for non-traditional students, um, who
may go at various times in their life, it is about learning and
development at a different life stage.
Um, and I would argue that that focus on learning and development
is, if you unpack that, is rich with a lot of different dimensions.
That's a really multidimensional phrase that I'm using when I
say learning and development.
Part of that learning and development.
May be related to skills and knowledge that is connected to a career, but
part of that learning and development is going to be all these other
dimensions of what it means to be human.
It may be about the community and their civic role in the community.
Mm-hmm.
What it means to be civically engaged, what it means to
be a member of a community.
Um, part of that development might be, I.
What it means to be part of a certain ethnic or racial identity.
What it means to be part of, um, where you call the United States, your home
and you call another country home, what it means to be transnational, what it
means to have home in multiple places.
All these other aspects of one's identity are.
All part of that learning and development.
Um, and this is beyond identity politics.
This is again, what it means to be human.
And as people begin to identify for themselves the meaning and meanings.
That they have in life, the priorities, where they spend their time, where they
spend their money, where they value, and what they value as they explore all of
that, that happens in an environment.
In higher education.
And that environment is a structured environment.
It is a safe environment.
It is also an environment that is built intentionally and strategically
so that individuals can explore that, um, so that individuals can
also open their minds to new frames of reference, to new perspectives.
Um, and all of that is.
Behind the intention of higher education and that, that learning and development.
And so, you know, for, for me, when I hear the critiques around the higher
education, around the value proposition of a college degree, um, however that may
be defined, if it's defined economically and by price point, it's defined
by the career and job, um, numbers.
Um, for me, part of the answer is in community-based learning
and experiential learning.
Um, because the intentionality of the connections that are created for
students through, uh, community-based learning and experiential learning,
these are curated experiences that students can't get on their own.
In the same way, in the same guided and structured way.
Um, and I think some people would argue with that and say, sure, a student
could get an internship on their own.
Yes.
But is it an educational internship?
Is it an academic internship that is curated, connected to a class that you
see offered, like at Loyola University of Chicago or at other institutions?
Right?
So again, these are curated experiences.
That students can't get in other ways.
Um, so what happens then is we're connecting students to networks,
communities, people, um, and students are connecting themselves through these,
their engagement to networks, communities, people, um, institutions, organizations.
And that process is where the, I think, um, Output and value of higher education
is just dramatically, uh, increased.
And, and I think that's where experiential learning plays a key role.
I, I, I really, I love that.
I agree.
I agree with you a hundred percent.
I too have three, um, teenagers who are, um, in high school right now, so I, my, my
bill is about to go up by a lot as well.
Um, I, I, I really do think that there is a genuine part of.
Um, going through these, being able to have that experience and figuring
out what matters to you, what are your passion, what are the things
that make you happy, is is a rather important part of the value proposition.
Who gets to just do that and explore?
You know, like it's hard to do that while you are working a job where it was highly
demanding and sure, you'll be learning that skill and you may be making money.
Um, but that's, that's a big part of what, you know, you're getting
out of higher education now.
It's sometimes hard to see it because it camouflages itself sometimes while
you're doing it is not, you are not happy.
You're like, oh, this is so hard.
I'm like, like really stressed, right?
Um, but ultimately though, We, I think you and I believe in the long term,
that's what's gonna bring happiness to that individual is when you become,
you know, you go through that phase of when, just like when Patrick Green goes,
went through the face of figuring out, ah, this is what I'm about, this is
what my life's work is gonna be about.
Right?
But it doesn't come for free.
It doesn't come easily, at least for most people.
You have to really work at it.
And, and I think that's, that's a, that's a big part of it.
But I also argue that on the flip side, society needs people like
this that are happily doing things that matters to the world in a way
that is wise and that is clever.
That is, you know, going to do, you know, tackle two things at once.
Um, that are not just sticking whatever that's convention for granted.
Um, right.
And so in order for that to happen, you really need these two areas.
I mean, you, you want them to be happy people figuring out what
matters to them, and hopefully align that in such a way that will also
address the priorities of community.
Um, and now you have a generation of people who are gonna be.
Knowledgeable who are able to learn because they went through that reflective
learning, critical reflection, you know, per um, experience and, um, are willing
to dedicate their lives towards something that's gonna be good for the world.
Um, I mean, that to me seems pretty worthwhile.
I.
Absolutely.
And, and what do we know about people?
We know people need meaning and purpose in their life.
Um, so how do we provide space for them to explore?
You know, what is meaningful and purposeful for you?
Where do you find meaning and purpose?
Um, and how can you connect that with your work?
Right now for some people they may, they may connect that to their hobbies,
to avocations and, and they may choose to do work in another direction.
That's fine.
However you find meaning and purpose, make sure that that is something that
you center her, you know, in your life.
Um, and, and I think the reality is, is that we know that, um,
work is important also for.
A paycheck for the ability to pay for the necessities in life to live
safely, healthfully, and comfortably.
Um, and so the, this is in no way to dismiss the necessity of work.
This is simply to elevate the dignity.
Of work.
Um, and so to allow people to recognize dignity in all work, um, you know,
I always make sure and, and, uh, you know, for my children growing up to
make sure that they know, thank those in the service industry because without
them, we wouldn't be able to go to a restaurant to function in an airport
properly and use the facilities.
Always thank those individuals and the dignity of their work allows us
the privilege to use the bathroom to sit down at a restaurant.
Um, that is incredibly important for us to remember.
Uh, and I think for us, elevating the dignity of work is not only about
honoring the multiple functions of work across all sectors of the economy.
It is also about recognizing that we hope people are able to find
meaning and purpose, uh, in their work, and that they see it as a
contribution to the larger society.
However, that may be the contribution of the individual who cleans the
bathroom is the biggest privilege.
That we have in this country to be able to utilize.
If you look around the world and how others around the world live, it is
a privilege that we are able to use a functional clean bathroom, and it is
because of our brothers and sisters working in the service industry who
have taken on that job and do it well.
That is dignity and work.
It also is an example of that is meaning and purpose, and we hope that
individuals in all types of the service industry, all types of jobs, professions,
in all sectors of the economy.
May they find not only dignity, but meaning and purpose in their work.
Um, speaking of, um, sort of higher education values and you know, and so
on, there are a lot of contemporary higher education, pressing issues.
Um, certainly in the last few years.
You know, we've seen.
Um, after George Floyd, the re reinvigoration of, you know, conversations
around racism, identity, um, there's, you know, um, the things like the Me
Too movement that have also started other, you know, kind of conversations.
Um, there is AI in, you know, looming over, um, Everyone and everywhere
in the world, including education and higher education, what are some
of the pressing issues that you as.
Um, a leader in, you know, in a prominent university, uh, what do
you see, um, that you can share and what is on the top of your mind?
Yeah.
Uh, so thank you for naming, um, some of those, those pressing issues.
Um, I would underscore, um, a commitment to diversity,
equity, inclusion, and justice.
Um, you know, the narrative has changed significantly.
We have, um, been forced to reckon with racial injustice.
Um, although our brothers and sisters, um, whose lived experience has been one
of racial injustice, um, especially, uh, the, the BIPOC Community, I would say
has been communicating this for decades.
We have been forced with the murder of George Floyd and
countless others to reckon.
With, with this and to face, um, that racism, uh, is um, an aspect
of our country, of our culture, of our, um, global community.
Uh, although it shows up in different ways and different cultures.
Um, and I think that, that within higher education, That, that is
something that we have to face, um, and have some really uncomfortable
conversations, uh, present and future.
Um, so I think the reckoning of, of racial injustice, uh,
is definitely at the forefront.
Um, I think the other element that we have to really, um, reckon with is,
uh, The environmental, uh, injustice and environmental sustainability.
Loyola is a leader in environmental sustainability.
Um, so I have several colleagues in our school of environmental sustainability.
Um, but you know, the climate change, um, And environmental injustice that,
that, uh, exists is, uh, certainly on the minds of this generation,
um, of college students and of, uh, young professionals who are really
trying to lead us in, in change, um, to address, I think environmental
injustice and, and climate change issues.
And I think the third element that I would say is really at our, um, That higher
education has to to deal with is, uh, you know, the Rogers Park community that
Loyola University of Chicago is in, is a community of immigrants and refugees.
It is one of the most diverse communities in.
The United States of America.
Um, and so with that comes great cultural wealth as students are able to
interact with members of the community, um, who speak different languages,
have fantastic options for restaurants from a variety of different cultures.
Um, but with that comes this, uh, reckoning.
Of the fact that we are a country of immigrants and refugees and that that is
part of the founding of our country, it is part of the evolution of our country.
Um, and it will always be the celebration of our country as
the United States of America.
And how can higher education be a leader?
In reckoning with, uh, immigrants and refugees, um, in really, uh, creating
safe spaces and places as well as making sure that doors are open, uh, so that
all of the individuals that find their way here, uh, Are made welcome and are
provided the opportunities that we hope for our children, the same opportunities
that we hope for our children.
Patrick, When do you wanna run for president?
You didn't realize that was gonna be a practice for a stump speech, right?
Um, no.
It's, uh, it's, it's really amazing what you said.
I think.
I think what you're saying is just, um, you know, these are, this is
why I love this idea of service learning and community-based learning,
because these are, you only get to feel passionately about these things
and understand them intimately.
If you go out to the world and look at it, you can't learn this through
a book watching a documentary.
You have to go interact with people.
And you talk to them and you see them, you observe, you, you, you give, and
then you, you know, you try to try, try to get something back and it's
only through all of these types of experiences that you can, um, you know,
um, I wanna share something that I'm so glad that this is just a podcast and a,
not like a scholarly defense, cuz I have no idea who actually said this first,
but I, I think I heard Steven Colbert.
Someone from Chicago, well at least had a, a big stint in Chicago,
called Chicago, I think probably his second home or something.
Um, who said, I think one time he said he was talking about service.
I think he was talking about service with the great John Batiste.
Um, the musician who was, who used to be, you know, playing on his
band and now has moved on, became a.
Like, uh, platinum sold out artists.
Um, really pretty amazing, you know, amazing guy, you know, itself.
I think they were talking about service.
I really loved the two of them talking about this.
And Steven Colbert said, uh, something along the lines of
service is love made visible.
Um, and it's very, you know, like you talked a lot about that
learning, you know, made visible and.
And, and, and it also comes back in this circle.
I mean, when you said that, I kept thinking about that little interaction
and, and how beautiful that is.
And I, I think if that doesn't connect with people...
What does, yeah.
You know, this is it.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's funny that you say that up on my wall, um, I have a sign that
says Work is love made visible.
And that is, you know, that, that is what I believe.
I mean, for me, that is, that is what this work is.
I mean, it is rooted, um, Uh, in faith it is rooted in, you
know, purpose and meaning.
It is, it is rooted in belief and, um, and I think that's why for
me, community engaged teaching and learning is so important.
And, um, and for me, the answer of why higher education matters.
Well, um, this has been a fascinating conversation, Patrick.
I feel like I can talk to you forever, and I hope that we
do get to continue this again.
Uh, at some point.
I feel like this, we're just scratching the surface.
Uh, I, um, I want to thank you again for sharing all your insights.
Telling us about your story, telling us about, you know, the origin
story of how your, your, your, your superhuman abilities came to be.
And, and then also sharing a little bit about, you know, what you have found and
what you have developed over, over that time and, you know, have been able to.
Um, make all of the, all of, all of that possible in, in, and express that in
the form of higher education with your students and with your faculty members.
I think that's just lovely.
Uh, what a, what a great, great way for me to, um, get inspired and I hope
everyone who's listening, uh, as well.
Um, are there any, uh, closing thoughts that you have, uh,
before we, we let you go?
And then, uh, but hopefully, you know how.
Have the opportunity to welcome you back in the near future.
Well, first of all, thank you so much for the time and, and thoughtful questions
and dialogue and, and, um, it has been a, a, a pleasure and I think, you
know, uh, My invitation for, um, anyone listening is, uh, to continue to be in
process and to continue to explore, uh, and wherever they may be, uh, uh, maybe
try to explore something new today.
That's lovely.
Next time we'll talk about all the books and the articles and all the other
things that you do that we didn't get to.
But, um, thank you again Patrick, and let's talk again soon.
That sounds great.
I would look forward to it.
Thank you.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
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