Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello and welcome Megan.
I'm like super excited to have you here.
Meghan: Hi.
Hi.
I am really excited to be here.
Anke: Wonderful.
So let's start out, as we always start, let people know where in this world
you are from, where you are based, and what's your business with dogs.
Meghan: Yeah.
Okay, cool.
So, I'm originally from Toronto, Canada, um, but I've been in London, England for.
Coming up to nine years now.
Um, yeah, I'm, I moved here in my early twenties for six weeks to
check it out, and clearly I love it.
Never left.
Um, and this is kind of where I began my journey with dogs.
I, um, got the university degree.
I got a job that I thought I was meant to have, you know, related to my degree.
And, um.
I just, I couldn't hack the commute.
I couldn't hack the sitting in one place.
I did it for about a year.
Um, and then what was the job
Anke: like?
What, what was the original career?
Meghan: Yeah.
I worked in, um, like social enterprise that worked in Oh, okay.
Um, which, you know, like could have, could have been a pathway for me,
but it just, um, it didn't, it didn't fit if something felt kind of off.
Um, and so yeah, I quit and I kind of felt like in total free fall and
I was like, what am I gonna do now?
I just wanna be outside.
I just wanna do something that I love.
I grew up with dogs and so I got a job at a dog daycare.
Um, as a dog walker and I worked there for about two months before I got fired,
which, which was probably for the best.
Um, me and the, the owner, we didn't really gel.
She maybe was a bit too into the, like, obedience training, um,
for her, her dogs and her staff.
Um, but I think that was like a real blessing in disguise or like
a real pivot moment in my life because I just thought, well, I'll,
you know, I'll just do this myself.
Um, so I started my own dog walking business probably in the same week,
uh, and just spent a lot of time like in my local park handing out
flyers to people with dogs, being like, hi, can I walk your dog?
And it just kind of snowballed from there.
Like it really kind of like grew quite quickly.
Um, and I just, yeah, I think that was like such a, a beautiful period of my life
that kind of like woke me up to like, what now feels like a calling or a purpose.
Um mm-hmm.
And yeah, I think the seed for me that started, uh, you know, when I was kind
of like, do like really good at it and I'm like, what is going on here?
Like, why am I able to kind of like connect and be with these dogs?
Like, it was about like energetic attunement.
Um, and I was really feeling like I had to be present for those dogs in
order to, you know, not lose them.
Um, oh, obviously helpful.
Yeah.
Um, and it's like in being present, they could feel that and then they
were more present and more responsive.
Um, and then in that, I was kind of went through like quite a significant like
transformational healing process, I would say that then just became this like.
Positive feedback loop almost.
Um, and then from there I started to, you know, I had lots of clients who
really kind of trusted me and so I just started offering training walks with
the dogs that I was already walking.
Like, I know your dog pretty well.
Why don't we go on a walk together and I can kind of show you
what I've learned about them.
Oh.
Anke: Yeah.
That is very cool.
I love that.
So it's not so preachy in a sense.
Like it's not like here's the, and this is what you do and
here's where the treat goes.
So it's more like, let me share with you what I've learned about
your dog while you were out working.
Meghan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
That's awesome.
Anke: I love that.
Yeah.
Meghan: Yeah.
And it just, um.
Yeah, it really sparked some like creative energy in me.
Mm.
Um, and um, from there I started to develop, um, kind of like,
well, what are the values that sit underneath the work that I'm doing?
Um, so the values that I kind of started with and still really apply to my work
today are, um, attunement, like that idea of like the, um, emotional connection.
Um, curiosity, autonomy, and joy.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and it was like those things that kind of were the foundation
for the framework that I then.
Developed, um, over time.
Um, and that was about a five year period of walking dogs and tr and developing,
working on this framework, um, that has evolved and is always evolving, right?
Like I'm constantly learning and you know, every session I have and every
conversation I have with a client, like.
It, it changes or informs like how I'm doing what I'm doing and why.
Um, and like, I guess I would say that I went on a para, I, I was
maybe mentioned that I was on this kind of parallel process of like, I.
Healing my own stuff, you know, and like being in relationship with
dogs, like so facilitated that.
Yeah.
And every time I learned something over here in the people world, or
like about our nervous systems or our kind of like reactive responses owing
to our trauma, I would just be like.
This is the same for dogs.
Anke: Mm-hmm.
We are also similar, isn't it?
I love that.
How you just sort of take one step at a time, you know, start
like, this sounds really like how I started my sewing business.
Just like, Hey, do you want a dress?
Right.
I mean, it's, it's kind of, initially it's, it's hard in the beginning.
It's like when nobody knows you, but it catches on quickly.
Right.
So I'm really curious about, um.
The framework you mentioned, you know, so do you wanna, do you
wanna unpack that a little bit?
Like, is there, like, has it got a name or like, what's the,
what do they call pieces to it?
Obviously we're not gonna have time to sort of dig in.
That's when people can find out more about you and get, get closer.
But if you wanna have a little kind of overview of the framework.
Meghan: Yeah.
Yeah, I would love to.
Um, it's funny if you've asked if it has a name and I've thought,
you know, for years, like, why doesn't have this, this have a name?
I'm not a marketing dude.
Well, I can, I can go into the pieces, right?
So, um, you know, a, I guess because of how I began and the language that
I used was around training and it was about like skills development.
Um.
That was maybe how I started, but, um, because I was learning a lot about
like the nervous system and polyvagal theory and like stuff to do with like
somatic healing, like in my own life.
Um, and I started to apply that more with working with dogs and like how I
was positioning myself in the world.
Um.
A lot of my work became about supporting people who dogs are reactive.
That's in air quotes for people who are listening.
Um, anxious, fearful, um, you know, so dogs that have any kind of
like behavioral concerns and, um.
No, no matter like what the behavioral issue that someone
kind of comes to me to address, I usually start in the same place.
And then it is very much emergent when we go from there.
And I do have kind of like tools and frameworks that we work
through, but I guess the, um, the seed is always like trying to help
them understand that the dog is.
In a reactive state owing to like a dysregulation in their nervous system.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and they're acting from a place of fear and not aggression.
And that can be a trauma response or it can be just, you know, a chronic kind
of like fear place that they're in.
Um.
And because for me the why is so important.
'cause it informs the what.
And you know, even people who come to me with less of like a
obedience background or like, how do I get my dog to stop doing that?
You know, people still don't necessarily have that framing of understanding.
And once I can support them to see that, and they can see that, you
know, your dog is dysregulated, then the approach changes.
Right?
We care about.
Regulating your dog and helping them feel safe, helping them feel
understood, um, rather than kind of change the behavior, which is kind
of like more on the surface, right?
Yeah.
Um, so that's kind of
Anke: bandaid kind of stuff.
So how do you, you know, how does somebody go about, somebody
goes, oh yeah, nervous system.
That makes sense.
You know, so for us, you know, people will go, oh yeah, I can go
meditation, do meditation, do somatic exercises, that kind of stuff like.
I have tried yoga with my dog.
It was very funny, a downward dog, and I'd get my face licked.
So yoga with a dog did not work well for me.
So, I mean, what's what, like how do you suggest somebody helps their dog?
Common nervous system.
Meghan: Yeah.
Cool.
Tha thank you for that question.
Um, 'cause it, um, well I guess like, so for a few years, like I was working
with my own tools and the things that I had learned and, um, I have like
a different like caretaker skills.
So I often start with the person and I'm like, you know, it's.
Actually also about your self-regulation.
It's about your ability to practice attuned communication
and consent based handling and cultivate your observation skills.
And so we kind of start with the person.
Then when we actually look at working with the dog, something
that, um, slots honestly like it's.
So, such a, um, transformative approach that I've come across, um,
two years ago now, I guess, um, is something called Tellington Touch.
Mm-hmm.
Um, is, is that, is that familiar?
Anke: Well, I mean, to me it is, but it might not be to listener.
So if you can kind of just like un unpack it a little bit.
Meghan: Sure.
Yeah.
So I'm, I've been studying this for the last two years.
I'm doing my practitioner training, uh, and it's basically like a
combination of body work, groundwork, um, and observation to support a
dog to, um, change their posture and improve their physical ballads.
Um.
Because there's, I guess the, the theory behind it is that our physical balance and
our posture, uh, influences our emotional balance and our, our mental balance.
Anke: Well, that makes sense.
Yeah.
I mean, we know it's like I.
And you feel kind of different instantly.
Right.
So that would make sense.
Meghan: Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly right.
And often what I kind of ask my clients to do when I'm trying to, um,
explain that is, you know, get them to think about a recent difficult
conversation that they've had.
And, um, for anyone listening, you know, you can do that too.
Think of something that was a bit, a bit difficult, a challenge at work, a
conversation with a boss or something.
And try and have that conversation in your mind.
Well.
You know, like scrunching up your, your face and tensing your shoulders and being
quite like inward and think about what that, the feeling tone of that is, right.
And then try and reimagine that conversation again.
But you've kind of exhaled, you've got your feet in line with your hips in
line with your shoulders, and you're just a bit more kind of like open.
And the feeling tone of that is quite different.
And it's just the same for dogs.
Anke: I love it because it's so true though, right?
And when the problem is it works both ways.
Like it works in a good way, but it also, you know, like if we are tense,
they also pick it up, you know, so it's like so connected that kind
of can backfire in a way, right?
Meghan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Totally.
Right.
And that's why this kind of piece around atunement is so important,
um, because if a to is that bridge between the human and the dog, right?
Like.
Our own embodied experience and our own ability to like self-regulate in those
moments is so, um, a part of that puzzle.
Yeah,
Anke: and I think actually when I look at my own experience, I think.
Dogs can really like teach us in that, in that way.
Like I had here Mr.
Mr Kay, and he was like, you know, really horrible start to his like little life.
And then he, and when I got him he would constantly, where's Kay?
He'd be hiding in some flower pot.
Like, he'd literally be hiding all the time, right?
So.
And he was very sort of very sensitive, very skittish, very nervous.
And, and so, so you can imagine going for a walk with him in the historic
part of town where there's like noises bouncing off and it'd be like, you know,
it wasn't much fun with him, you know, he was like such a polar, like crazy.
And sometimes, but sometimes it was better than or worse than others, you know?
And I came to the point where I'm like, for God sake, you know?
And then it was like, wait.
Yeah.
How am I, I'm all right.
Like, I'm, you know, and I'm like, well, and then I would make a conscious
effort to, you know, breathe, touch a tree and kind of like, you know, and,
and all of a sudden the dog would slow, like calm down as well, you know, so
it's, it's easy to see and I think they can almost bring to light a lot
of the time what's going on with us.
Right.
Meghan: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Breathe and touch a tree.
That's, that's medicine right there.
Um, and yeah, so it's, so I just think it's like so important to think about
how we're showing up in those moments.
Um, and then thinking on the other side, like for the dog, like, well,
you know, if your dog is walking down the street and they hear a sound and
they hear a cyclist or there's a kid running around and like every time they
are a bit experience that arousal like.
What are they doing with their body?
Right?
They're gonna be probably contracting and tensing in the same way.
Yeah.
Um, and then once that kind of happens chronically, right?
That becomes their, their habit.
Their posture, right?
And so I think having this more body-based approach that,
um, works directly with like.
Um, supporting them to change their posture through, through
body work, through groundwork, through non habitual movement.
It's just like the, the changes that I've seen have been unlike anything I've
seen in the years prior to doing it.
Um, I.
Anke: I mean, it makes, it makes all, all the sense in the world.
And is that something that, that you teach the owners or is that something
that, um, you know, they'll come to you for and you teach the dog?
Or how, how does that work?
Meghan: Hmm, yeah.
So, um.
The, the, we do, we do a lot in the session.
So, um, I, I slot it into, um, my kind of framework, but I will run a
session like a, like a TTouch session.
I'm permitted to do that even though I'm not a certified practitioner
yet, 'cause I'm already or a professional, like working with dogs.
Um, but I, I do a lot of like.
Observation, like how is the dog, um, coping in their environment?
How are they moving around in their body?
Are they putting all of their weight on all four of their paws?
Like, what's going on?
What's getting in their way?
And as I do that, I am sharing that information with the caretaker
and sh and like kind of, you know, asking them what they're observing
as well and trying to kind of guide them along the process with me.
And then kind of based on whatever the observations then that's.
That's gonna inform the intervention.
So, um, if someone's coming to me and they're saying, oh, my dog gets
really startled with noise all the time, and then I might see that the
dog has kind of an ear that's a bit asymmetrical, maybe they need some ear
work and some support to kind of like release whatever's going on there.
Um, and so I'll do the, the touch work in the session.
Um.
Or, you know, or the groundwork, which was more like, kind of like moving
the dog through different elements in like a very slow and intentional
way to influence their proprioception and their vestibular system.
Um, but then at the end we kind of like wrap up and there's
always, there's always homework.
There's always like tools that they can take with them because, well, I also
think is so powerful about TTouch is that you don't need to be a practitioner
to like have an impact, right?
There's quite simple.
Tools and like the combination of just knowing the basics and knowing
your dog and trusting your intuition, like you can have a, a real impact.
Anke: Hmm.
And that makes it more powerful because, you know, not everybody's
gonna have to, oh, you know, it's, it's just like massages.
You know, you think, well, they're kind of nice, but if I
have to go to, to one every week.
Then it becomes a less optimal kind of solution if you're sort of dependent
on, on the treatment in a way.
You know?
So if there is something that people can do by themselves with their dog,
you know, doesn't mean you shouldn't go back to the practitioner, but the day
to day, you know, if you can actually do something without needing the
professional help all the time, I think that makes it more usable for people.
Right.
Meghan: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a really, really accessible tool.
And it actually, like the kind of principles or like what we're like
trying to influence in the body, like actually benefits from less, not more
like, because it's not, doesn't, uh.
Have you gone, oh no, you're here.
Sorry.
Oh, sorry, sorry.
My, my laptop went strange for a second.
Um, but it's not actually aiming to influence the musculoskeletal system.
It works with the nervous system and it works with the fascia and the nervous
system doesn't like, need a lot, right?
To actually be able to like, experience a shift, be offered a new neural pathway.
So, you know, you can, um.
One of my clients once called it constructive cuddles.
'cause it's like you can just do it for like 20 seconds to, to a couple minutes at
a time, and you actually can like really influence the nervous system of the dog.
Anke: Oh, constructive cuddles.
That's like so cute.
Yeah.
It's almost like permission to cuddle, like I'm all in.
Yeah, yeah.
Always kind of try and hold back a bit because, you know, most dogs
don't really like it, you know, so, and we kind of really like it,
but like, oh, constructive cuddles.
Now there is an idea.
Meghan: Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
A lot, a lot of the work that I do is supporting people to think of,
to reevaluate the way that they engage in, in touch with their dog.
Because you're right there is like, you know.
A lot of ways that we do touch dogs that kind of, we do non thinkingly
that might actually be contributing to arousal or not necessarily being
something that the dog enjoys.
But this actually kind of asks you to kind of just take a second, get
in your body, look at what the dog might need and like ask them if
you can touch them in that way.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and t touch is very much a lot about like feedback.
So you do it for like 10, 20 seconds and then you just stop.
Anke: And then you'll see whether they lean in or walk off.
Meghan: Exactly.
Or do a shake or whatever it is.
And then, you know, you go back.
And so, you know, going back to that example of the dog who might need some
ear work, if I identify that, I'm not gonna just start touching the dog's
ears 'cause that might feel intense.
Right.
So it's about like finding the entry point, finding like what feels good
for them, and then kind of slowly through that process of like doing
it a bit, stopping, waiting for feedback, working towards the ears.
So.
It also gives the dog the experience of being handled in a way that is consensual.
Um, so it's quite trust building as well.
Anke: Mm, yeah.
I think there's more and more people talking about that, that um, idea of
giving the dog as much agency as possible.
You know, where we kind of, so used to, well, not me, but, but
like, I remember actually I had a neighbor, they had a guide dog.
You know?
Yeah.
And so that poor dog was like on like working all the time, you know?
And then the moment they'd unclip her and like, okay, now she got ordered to
do a wee somewhere like now and here.
Yeah.
You know, like that dog didn't even, wasn't even allowed to breathe by herself.
Right.
Yeah.
And it's like, oh God no, I don't wanna be in her, in her pause.
For sure.
So, yeah.
So is this something that where you think like, okay, uh, once we've got.
The dog kind of like calmed down or regulated a bit, then
it's that, or is this something that would turn into a habit?
It's something that you'll always do or, or is it like, okay,
once they kind of know how to.
Calm themselves down, then we're kind of good, or, or would you always like,
just like with meditation we say, well, you know, you might not need
to necessarily, but it's a good idea.
Or, you know, how, how does it work?
Meghan: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Um, well, like, you know, every case is, is different.
And, um, sometimes I'm in a session and I do something with
a dog and we just see them.
Change their posture in like in immediate way.
And it's a bit like weird magic.
Um, and sometimes it is more about the kind of like
consistent, still putting it in.
Um, one tool that they use, which IT touch uses, which I really,
really love is, um, body wraps.
So kind of using like, um, ace bandages, elastic catered, kind of stretchy
bandages to, uh, wrap the dog up in a certain way and like bring them.
Into movement in that wrap.
And what it does is it offers feedback into the nervous system and
influences the proprioceptive system.
Um, for people who aren't familiar with that, where is, it's like basically,
um, your body's understanding of the body parts in relation to each
other and the space around you.
So if I've got kind of chronic tension in my shoulders, um, if I put a wrap
on myself, I might, my brain might send a signal being like, why are my ears.
So close to my shoulders.
Um, and then through that I kind of relax and that changes my posture,
it changes my holding pattern.
And so applying a wrap every day for up to 20 minutes for a period of time,
you know, different for every case, but that can have that lasting impact.
Um, and, but you don't need to do it every day forever.
It becomes a case that, you know, you might do it occasionally for
maintenance, but these tools can have a profound lasting effect.
Anke: Mm.
And it does make sense because I think once you are getting used to
being aware of that, you know, like I remember that, um, when I was living
in London for all, all places there, I used to go to Tai Chi classes, right?
And the, I remember the very first class, the guy goes, okay, go and, you know,
stand there and relax your shoulders.
And so you rack your shoulders and he would come and goes,
you've done yoga, haven't you?
Meghan: You
Anke: know?
And he says, I could tell.
The way you relax your shoulders and somebody who hasn't got that bodily,
like that physical awareness, you know, he says like, they're kind of like this.
And then you kind of say, you relax your shoulder and they go kind of like that.
You know?
So it's, it's like, and he says, you can tell.
Who's done like ballet or, or gymnastics or, or kind of any, anything that requires
you to be like really consciously aware of your body and how it's placed in space.
You know, so you could tell immediately, you know, and I think it feels, it sounds
like, oh yeah, same for dogs, right?
So it's almost like once they realized like, oh, actually, hmm.
Is that, is that correct?
Or am I making this up?
Meghan: No, no, no.
That's, that's bang on basically, right?
It's like, you know, they don't, if we're talking about a
habit, a postural habit, right?
And so if you're in that place where your shoulders are chronically tense or your
a dog and your ears are constantly back, or a lot of, you know, you can map on
some of the more behavioral or emotional responses to how they hold themselves.
So like, um, a tucked tail is a, is a, is a fear, um, pattern, right?
Which we're probably familiar with.
But, um, um.
Yeah.
Like if we, if they're doing that, they're doing that non thinkingly, that's a habit.
And that often, um, you know, tensing yourself in that way, in a way that
doesn't like help you use your body effectively is probably quite painful.
And so how does our, how does our brain deal with pain?
Right?
It like.
Disaggregates parts of our body.
Um, so that that dog with a tucked tail might not have a lot of awareness in
their hind quarters, in their tail.
Right.
Um, and so by using these different practices and tools, you can help
them bring that part of their body back online and then, then yeah.
They have that awareness and they have that ability to kind of like move,
uh, in a way that is more integrated.
Anke: That makes so much sense.
So where can people go and uh, you know, do you work online or
do you strictly work locally?
Or how can people find out more?
And you know, I.
Get your help.
Meghan: Yeah.
Great.
Thank you.
Um, so yeah, I recently started, uh, a Substack and I'm trying
to be a bit more online and been doing this for six years now.
And, um, I, I work locally, but I am, I'm like ready to reach a bit further.
So I've got, um, a substack that is free and then there's a paid.
Version that is more about like kind of getting the, the live coaching
and the direct support about what's going on with people and their dogs.
Um, otherwise, yeah, I do online, um, coaching sessions, um, which can have a
benefit and there are elements of TTouch that can definitely be taught online.
Um, and then, yeah, I'm based in East London for those who are local.
Anke: Awesome.
Awesome.
So obviously we're gonna have the link right below this, so I'm
not gonna make it hard to find.
Thank you so much.
I was absolutely, you know, it's lovely to speak to somebody from London
where I used to live, and so Yeah.
And I love, I love what you're doing and I love how you're bringing, you know,
the, the, the human things and the, the how you bring that together in, in this
lovely and wonderfully accessible way.
So thank you.
Meghan: Thank you so much.
Yeah, so much.
It's been a real pleasure being on here.
Thank you for having me.
Anke: Thank
Meghan: you.
Okay.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.