Intro: Boz is done taking care of people and also she booked a national commercial. Did Gina use the word
fatuous correctly?
Let Me Run This By You:
Tread documentary, tales of revenge.
Interview: We talk to
Severance's
Tramell Tillman about the
University of Tennessee, ongoing racial disparities in conservatories, wanting to be an orthopedic surgeon and trying advertising before realizing he was meant to be an actor,
Xavier University of Louisiana,
Hunters with
Al Pacino,
Howard University, graduating Summa Cum Laude from
Jackson State University,
Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity,
Dr. Mark G. Hendersen, mentors,
Jed Diamond,
The 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee, micro and macro racial aggressions,
The Great Society at Lincoln Center,
Brian Cox, the unknown harrowing adventures that sometimes accompany auditions and callbacks, making
Ben Stiller laugh,
Dan Erickson, being self-possessed,
Rachel Tenner,
Tigran Babadjanian, having the biggest break of your life two months before a global pandemic,
Sarah Edwards,
Doug Ellin's
Ramble On pilot with
Kevin Dillon,
Kevin Connolly of
Entourage.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice
1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.
2 (15s):
At 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
3 (35s):
Tell us
1 (37s):
I, and she'll never listen to this. So I had like this really hard thing with my sister in terms of, oh, it's just hard. Family stuff is hard. You know, I am just really working hard in therapy to work through some of the trauma that I experienced. And some of it is directly related to things that my sister did. And I'm not saying I didn't do shit either. I'm not saying that I am saying that I don't want to go to Chicago for two to four, my niece's graduation. And I told her, and my niece is like, don't come, I'm moving there in two months. Don't I'm
3 (1m 14s):
Thinking she's coming
1 (1m 15s):
To LA. My sister wanted me there for her, but here's the thing in order for that to happen, you have to have, as we know, emotional shit in the bank for someone to want to come and do the thing for you, when the person graduating doesn't want you there or doesn't care. And it's not enough, I don't have it in me. And I, and I just said that cause, and I said, if you want to talk, she said, you know, it's been on my heart to it's all texts. It's never a call, but on my heart to tell you that I'm really sad that you're not coming. And I said, oh, we're opening the door to what's on our heart. Okay, great. I had been working through all this shit in therapy. And if you want to talk about it, great, if not, but just suffice it to say, it's not a good time for me to come.
1 (2m 0s):
I am dumb taking care of people. I just, I love California. I will get on a plane for certain things. If you needed me to get on a plane, I would be on a plane in two seconds. If you Sasha and Chrissy needed me, I would go on a plane. But I am not because there's stuff in the bank account of love and life. I get it. I trust it. I have been taken care of. And so I am willing now to take care of back, but you, I I'm. So I'm just so like, yeah, I'm done. I'm done trying to take care of people that have, that have done no caretaking. Like I can't, I'm not going to do it
3 (2m 38s):
To get
1 (2m 39s):
It's that how life is. So she, she, she did not write back. She did not write back and that's okay. That is okay. Like I, you know, it's interesting. It's like, oh, people want to talk about feelings. Oh, wait, I could sit. I love talking about feelings. Let's go. But what I'm not gonna do is pretend.
3 (2m 56s):
Yeah. And honestly, like, without really knowing whether this is true, I just feel like sometimes when people say things like it's been on my heart, I just feel like you're just aping something that you heard, somebody else say you don't even really know what that means. Like if you really took a minute to look at what's on your heart, you know, you might, instead of it just being like, I'm disappointed in something you did, you would really be trying to
1 (3m 20s):
Figure out why
3 (3m 21s):
The dynamic that led to this situation
1 (3m 24s):
Anyway. So I just have to do what I have to do, you know? So, okay. So the, the, the commercial was really fun. So part of the,
3 (3m 35s):
I think, believe that was fun. Like, you know, that's the thing that you don't really expect us to be as fun,
1 (3m 40s):
Super fun. And I'll tell you why it is completely not about as we know the thing that's happening. It is about what is happening inside of us while we're doing the thing. And I really well, first of all, you know, to be very transparent, like there's no lines. So my phobia is about forgetting lines and being ashamed and then wanting to die and having the whole production throw like pitchforks at me. Right? Like that is my, so there's no lights. So I know that that's not going to happen. So like, I'm starting from a better place. And then my, you know, it's, it's an early call, which is great for me. Cause then you don't sit around and think, and everyone was lovely.
1 (4m 20s):
Like everyone, because I was reflecting back to my theater school time. Right. And my first job out of theater school was working on early edition. Oh no. ER was the first one, I think an E R was a nightmare for me, because of all the things we talk about on this podcast, I was insecure. I was a jerk because I was insecure, but mostly I was just straight up so insecure that everything I did was tinge with a horrible, like feeling right. And that comes through like, no people feel that shit. Right. So even if you hide it, so I don't have that now. Oh, I might have, if we hadn't done this podcast and I might have, if there were a lot of lines and like, I was really felt pressure, but what I felt was like, oh, I, I, it was my first experience in a long time of feeling like I am a part of a whole, I have my one part to do here.
1 (5m 20s):
I'm not responsible for any of this other shit. I am responsible for taking direction from the director, Ben, who was hilarious, Australian British guy, hilarious guy. And I'm, that is my job. And the first day who will tell me where to move and what to do and to not spill on my costume like that is it. And so I do those things and I, and I did take the direction I was wrapped into hours. So I w I know I went, it's an 11 day shoot. I don't, I'm not shooting. I wish I was shooting more than one day. Look, this is one of those instances where I wish I'd be aspect. Mostly I'm wishing secretly to be fired.
1 (5m 60s):
So I don't have to go through the hell of it. But I was like, oh, maybe the last minute they're not going to ask me. It's all set. They can't just be like, Hey, bring Chad back for no reason in this million billion dollar commercial. So, but I basically, you know, just did this little thing and then did some improv and the clients, this is fantastic. I just, the world is a strange place. The clients were in a bus cause I was outside and the clients and the, and the add people. And then the client were in this bus with monitors watching me and then giving directions to the director to give to me. So I don't hear them, which is good. Cause they usually probably say things like, you know, they're just blocked.
1 (6m 42s):
They're like that sucks to learn. Not to do that ever again. No. Talk about that. Okay. That was lame, you know, which is great. I don't need to hear any of that shit. But then, so then what Ben would do is we interpret what they were saying and give me notes and then we'd go from there. And it was like easy peasy. And I loved the outfit they picked for me and everyone was lovely. Look, look, everyone was lovely because of a lot of things. But mostly I have to say like the feeling is which I fucking hate because you know how we feel about when people say new agey, but like, yeah. But the feeling is that when I come at it and I am genuinely, like, I was very prayerful.
1 (7m 25s):
I was like, okay, whoever's running the show. Like, let me be of service. Like, I don't fucking know what that means here, but let me just do the thing and like go home. Like, that's it. And I don't have to be special. I don't have to be the star. I just want to do my job and do, and try to interpret what this man is telling me to do because that's my job. And then go home and everyone was lovely. And it was two hours, like two and a half hours.
3 (7m 48s):
Well, I would imagine in addition to not having to worry about the lines, the other thing you probably liked about the improv nature of it is like, what they're saying to you from the beginning is just for you to be you. And two things occurred to me about being on a commercial. Usually the lines are probably cheesy and therefore for hearts, I mean, that's gotta be some of the hardest acting, right? Like when you're having to really act like you love
1 (8m 13s):
Stella thing, but without selling it or like be you, but like less funny kind of, or
3 (8m 18s):
Right. And you just w they were just inviting you to be completely authentically yourself, which is always a good starting point for you. And yeah. And then not have, like, like you're saying, it's not really about your acting, it's about your presence and about your relationship with the other people who were making it. And it sounds like they did a great job of making everybody feel comfortable. So did you, does this mean you didn't meet any of the other 10 people or whatever?
1 (8m 43s):
I met, yes. I met them at the fitting and then we now have like a little Instagram group. Cause we're like keeping track of like how much they're going to run it. And like, we're just keeping to end. And so then I heard the, one of my people who was shooting later that day had like trials and tribulations just due to like props that she had to like ride a bike, like craziness, if I had to write, oh, no, she was, she was very fit and like, very so, but she, you know, everyone's worried they want to do a good job and like, they don't want, and they want the shit to run and they don't want any problems. Cause it's a big payday. So we talked her through it. And then my other friend shoots today, a new friends, like, you know, we just met up, but lovely humans, everyone was super funny and super lovely and like regular folks.
1 (9m 31s):
And you know, it was a great experience. Now look, look, it's interesting. This happens. Maybe it happens a lot for some people, but like it's, it's like winning the lotto. Right. It's happened to me. I'm 46. It's happened to me twice and that's great, but I don't expect that it will happen again, but I am just grateful. I got to participate. And I'm also really grateful because like the casting director and I, you know, shall I say, I think I said her name and I can say it again. She's amazing. Jodie Sonnenberg, you would love her. Like she is dope. She's like one of us, like a regular lady, maybe younger than us. I'm probably flattering myself, but like she's younger.
1 (10m 12s):
And, but like just like regular, not what I would call like the 65 year old blonde lady who like fucking hates her life at this point and is like, fuck you to everybody, which I look, I don't blame you. Everyone's got their shit, but she's not that. And so I feel like that was how the, and I sent her a little gift because I felt like that was how she ran the callbacks. And so it makes a difference.
3 (10m 37s):
Yeah. Yeah. It though, even though you never can go wrong to just be kind and make people feel comfortable. I don't know why that took us collectively as a human race so long to figure out
1 (10m 50s):
Y we're still figuring it out. And also like it doesn't actually somehow we, we we've, we've come to the conclusion that like business and that can not exist, but actually it's a better business model to be kind, to make people feel comfortable unless maybe you're like in a lie detector test or, you know, career or in court. But even then,
3 (11m 15s):
Yeah, I, I haven't, since two, that that might be because we've also labored under the delusion that I'm business isn't personal, but everything is personal in the sense that you're a person and that you react to things with your personal lens and your personal experience, that thing that you said way, way, way at the beginning of our recording this podcast. But like every time you have even a slightly emotionally charged interaction with somebody, which is almost all interactions that you're just doing a recapitulation of some previously templating Nope. You know, situation you were in. So that you're likely to then have all the same reactions that you, you know what I'm saying.
3 (11m 58s):
So this idea that when two people are interacting in any way that it's not always definitely personal is I think fatuous, and really everybody just needs to acknowledge the humanity of the person that they're in front of, whether it's for a big payday or for, you know, can you, excuse me, when you get to the marshmallows,
1 (12m 19s):
You can tell that you read a lot because you see things like fatuous, which is fantastic. What does that mean?
3 (12m 28s):
Yeah, it means like it's, oh, have to look it up the exact definition, but it means like it's like it's fall asleep proposed to be something
1 (12m 36s):
I love that word. I mean, it really, it's a really, it's a thing for me that I'm, I'm working on in terms of like read more Bosworth, read more things so that, you know what that means. And also I love that, that you read a lot. I love that. I adore people that read a lot because I've just, my mother was an avid reader. And so I went the opposite direction.
3 (12m 56s):
Oh, sure. That makes sense. Well, I honestly, I read as much as I do and listen to podcasts, all kinds of, because really the bulk of what I have to do in my day is be a housewife. So it's very boring, very tedious, very like not interesting work. So in order to keep it interesting, I have to be sometimes I'm like, Hmm, I am always, I don't know. Like, it's almost like, what would I do if I didn't have those things? And I had to get through one of my, it would be hard. I would make an adjustment, but it w it would be hard. But anyway, that's just, you know, that's the reality.
3 (13m 37s):
You have a master's degree and yet your job is to, you know, get everybody to school in time and do the dishes and make KCBS for lunch.
1 (13m 50s):
Let me run this by you. You think I'm insane that I love Mars
3 (14m 3s):
Really puzzling about why you identify. I'm like, Hmm. At the beginning. I'm good. Okay. Okay. And again, I'm going, wait, what did I miss? So tell me exactly what you loved about this guy. I mean, I'm not saying that he didn't have good qualities or just,
1 (14m 32s):
He was a paranoid schizophrenia probably. Okay. I don't, I don't, he was definitely paranoid and probably schizophrenia and psychotic and needed medication. Okay. That part I don't identify with, but what, the thing that I liked it. Okay. Specifically, I liked this. He built his weapon was not a gun. It was with for him. Okay. It was for him. You did start shooting at the, okay. Wait, that's not very true. Okay. So he did start shooting at them, but only after they tried to attack his bulldozer, but the point is, what do I, I like that he built a fortress. Okay. This is the,
3 (15m 6s):
Yeah. So that was quite, it was impressive. He built,
1 (15m 10s):
And we talked a little bit about, but he like welded himself into a fucking bullet proof bulldozer that he fucking built in secret and was working on it. Here's the thing I think I identify with like working the, something to work on something specifically in secret for so long, and then seal himself into a fortress and then bulldoze the talent. I know that it's wrong. And that he destroyed a lot of people's lives because he destroyed their legacy, their property, their, whatever. I know it's wrong, but there is something satisfying about the fact of, of, of he warned them.
1 (15m 51s):
Now, look, he's alluded tick. So warnings from a lunatic, what are you going to do? But he did warn them. And then he proceeded. They couldn't stop him. He was an unstoppable undeniable force at the end. Yeah.
3 (16m 4s):
I mean, I will say the thing that I think every human could probably relate to is he found a way to make his point such that nobody could stop him even a equally heavy
1 (16m 23s):
Piece of machinery. I remember the alley bring out the big boys and the big boy, he just pushed the huge thing away. And I was like, he was like, fuck you, you think you're?
3 (16m 34s):
And he thought of everything. And he had the fan and he had the vents and he had the video cameras. And he even had like, he'd even thought about, you know, what was the thing? They said like, oh, he, even, he, he ha he built a thing with compressed air, the dust from Pam. He thought of everything. He thought of everything. And there was something about it that did kind of remind me of my dad. Not that he did anything like
1 (17m 3s):
That. Yes.
3 (17m 5s):
So what did, what reminded me of my dad was, you know, there's just, there's like two kinds of people in the world. There's people who get real involved in like zoning, dramas
1 (17m 17s):
And condo boards.
3 (17m 19s):
That kind of thing is really interesting to me and I, through my dad, I just knew a bunch of old men, men who talk like this, my dad talked like that. He said, he says, and I says, and they says, my dad talked like that. And my dad had a hot tub and my dad would sit in it and plan his revenge for people that wronged Tim. So there was that part of it was endearing, but yeah, he was quite mentally ill, but at the same time, it's like, I don't like any of those. They were all terrible.
1 (17m 55s):
I like how some people really believed in Marv. His snowmobiling friends were like, dude, mark told them, like, I mean, he was a good guy and they just, and those people are crazy too. Like everyone is bonkers. Right.
3 (18m 6s):
The idea that there was somebody who just like, man, I'm just living a snowmobile. Listen, this day's only granted to me so that I could snowmobile later.
1 (18m 16s):
There's no specific. And meesh, it's like, it's not even like retire. It's like snowmobile. So. Okay. So that leads me to also tell you a little teeny story of revenge. I think I like revenge because I feel like as a child, I never could get revenge. I could never be heard. And like you said, like no one was ever forced to listen to what I had to say. I never felt heard. Right. Okay, bye. So this is a story. Oh my God. I was telling this at a party the other night, because we were talking about breakup stories. Okay. My friend called me and said, I did something. This is in like, I don't know, 20, maybe 2000 something around there and said, or even earlier and said I did something really bad in New York city.
1 (19m 1s):
And I was like, what? And she was like, this is so she had been involved. This is Kaka, Coco crazy. And it's fine. Cause I won't mention her name. So she had been in, she had been engaged to an asshole in Manhattan. She lived in Manhattan. He lived in Manhattan and off air. I'll tell you who this is because I think you might know them anyway. So, so she had been engaged in this douche bag. Right. And they had this, this beautiful apartment on fifth avenue, right. That she had inherited. Okay. And they got into this thing, but she had put him on the deed or whatever and in the process and he had an affair and he was a gross, but he ended up getting the apartment in Manhattan.
1 (19m 42s):
It was hers, but he took it from her. So she was sold, live it. And she didn't know what to do. And she didn't tell anybody she did that. But she was like, listen, can I just come get my shit out before you take it over? And he was like, yeah. So what she did was take a big she'd went in with just a bucket. And he was like, what the fuck? And she was like, oh no, you know, I'm just like gonna put shit in there, whatever. She had something like 14 dozen eggs. Okay. And she dumped him in the bucket and she stirred it around and she had a Turkey baster and she put egg wet egg in the cracks of every floorboard, every piece of floorboard in the whole big ass, fifth avenue apartment she lined with with raw egg.
1 (20m 29s):
Okay. And she left, she left. So that seeps into the wood and it fucking starts to stink. And I didn't know any of this was going on until way after. And she felt the need to confess here like a year later and they couldn't figure it out. So they started, so of course he was like, what, what, what of piece of shit apartment did you inherit? And she was like, I have no idea what you're talking about. And so then the, he got people in and they started to tear up sections of the wood to figure out what died underneath. It was not, it was in the cracks. They had to fucking, he spends a million dollars re tearing up the floors and then having to, and it was like, she got her fucking revenge.
1 (21m 15s):
And I am like, I know
3 (21m 18s):
I love a good revenge story too. I once accidentally did revenge
1 (21m 23s):
At the
3 (21m 23s):
End of the story.
1 (21m 24s):
And so the bottom line is she was like, I was like, you know, so-and-so, I don't think it was that bad.
3 (21m 31s):
So I'm going to try to tell the story in a way that really removes all the identifying characteristics. But I, one time had a bad interaction with a company and I wanted to work for them. And I was really qualified to work for them. And I, and I kind of knew them in a way, it was the kind of situation where like, if you're not going to hire this person at a minimum, you send them a really nice thing. Why? And it was like nothing, no, no response, zero zip, zilch acting like, you know, it just like I was a non entity.
3 (22m 13s):
Sometime later I had occasion to work at that company in a different capacity, a backdoor like through a subcontractor. No, I did not intend to exact any revenge on this company, but I was having a really bad period at the time that I was working there and I was going to the bathroom, like every 10 minutes to change my tampon. And one day I left and I got called at home to say, we wouldn't be returning the next day because somebody had clogged up the whole toilet system such that it was a river shit and tampons coming out of the bathroom and
1 (23m 6s):
Plastic
3 (23m 7s):
Down the hallway,
1 (23m 9s):
Tastic
3 (23m 10s):
Doors and
1 (23m 13s):
Fantastic.
3 (23m 15s):
Oh shit. That was me. And then, and then just like, oh, no wonder who did that? That's God, that's horrible. And I had to spend a ton of money repairing and replacing and, and, and getting it back to,
1 (23m 28s):
You know, what also, this reminds me to say fucking think of fucking septic systems that can accommodate women's tampon products. So we don't have to wrap them up, touch them, wrap them up and put them in a fucking separate bag. You fucking,
3 (23m 45s):
Honestly, I men have no idea what it would be like to have to have to do that. And I'm not.
1 (23m 52s):
My dad used to say, my dad used to say, we have plumbing problems because you F you, you all flush the flush, the Kotex town. I'm like, first of all, you fucking idiot. It's not Kotex. And no one's putting maxi pads down, like shut up.
3 (24m 9s):
It's funny. And anyway, it's similar. It's similar to, we accidentally getting revenge on the theater school. When I kicked in the door, I've never done revenge directly, but I have acted. It turns out I've acted out revenge on more than one occasion. And it was actually just a satisfying
2 (24m 30s):
Ladies and gentlemen, do we have a show for you? My mind, my mind, not only do we have a fantastic actor, who's a great storyteller and has had an interesting life. We have Mr. Milczyn consult <inaudible> star of one of the very best television shows to ever exist. Severance. I could go on and on, but I won't. It's all there in the conversation. So please enjoy our conversation with Tremmel Tillman.
3 (25m 4s):
Congratulations. Tremmel Tillman. You survived theater school.
1 (25m 8s):
<inaudible> and you also
3 (25m 12s):
Were you, it was a big milestone for your program. I read if what if, what I can read on the internet is true. You were the first African-American to graduate from this MFA program. Is that right?
4 (25m 23s):
Well, I was one of the first African-American men to graduate from the program. There were two women in previous classes before me, Cecily Ash and Sherry Jackson. But the year that I was there from 2011 to 2014, I was the only African-American in the program. And I had asked, I said, you know where all the guys, you know, and they said, I don't really think we had many guys come through the program, black men. And from that point on, after I was there, every class had black men, black women, and then expanded and Latino men and Asian as well.
1 (26m 8s):
We, we it's, it's not like shocking. It's like wrong, but it's not shocking. And also I was just reflecting like when Gina and I are older than you are. But when we went to the theater conservatory at DePaul, I think I was the only Latina and Steph and we were forever. And then I was like forever. And so it is, it is so gross now, but we were, that was 1998. So I was like under the false assumption that, oh, 2014, it's going to be, it's a different world. Oh, no, no,
4 (26m 44s):
No, no. So, oh
1 (26m 46s):
Man.
3 (26m 47s):
Okay. Now that was in Tennessee, right?
4 (26m 50s):
It wasn't Tennessee yet,
3 (26m 51s):
But you're are you from Tennessee?
4 (26m 53s):
I am not. I'm originally from Maryland. So I was born in DC, raised in Maryland and trickled on down to Tennessee through like this crazy route
1 (27m 6s):
Where you going to be a surgeon or did I make that up in my brain?
4 (27m 9s):
You are absolutely right. The research. I was going to be an orthopedic surgeon and I went to school at Xavier university in new Orleans because they're number one, percenting African-Americans to medical school. So I said, you know, this is a school that I need to go to. And I was in biology. What is it by bio lab, chem lab? And I hated it. I absolutely hated it. It was those lab classes that were three hours to two days a week. And I wanted to gouge my eyes out and you know, this isn't for me
1 (27m 41s):
And just boring, boring as shit, or where you like, this is also because for me, like I can't add is my problem. Like, I'm terrible. And so was it that, or was it just boring as hell?
4 (27m 54s):
It was boring as hell. We were in this basically windows list, room, fluorescent lights. It was like severance. It was like separates and, you know, carving up frogs or balancing equations and math that I never really been friends. So it was just like, I don't want to do this. And, but, so, so there was so many people around me. I was inspired by because they were passionate about this. They love this, they lived and breathed chemistry and biology. And I was like, I don't have that same passion. And I don't want to devote 10 plus years of my life to something that I'm just like, I don't want to do.
3 (28m 31s):
It's such, it's such a con like the entire 10 years, you're just working constantly around the clock and not for nothing but certain specialties of medicine have there, like a certain type of person goes into radiology and a certain type of person goes into orthopedics. And they're not the nicest people, the orthopedic surgeons, because they, you know, they have to like get in there and break your bone and re
4 (28m 56s):
Set
3 (28m 56s):
It. So I think maybe you made the right choice and certainly for us, because we love everything that you're is,
1 (29m 2s):
I was, I was telling Gina before we got on that, I'm remember you in hunters, you were in hunters, right?
4 (29m 8s):
I wasn't hunters. Yeah.
1 (29m 9s):
Great. So I'm obsessed with any kind of Nazi hunting and like weird shit. And so I adored, I adored that and you were fantastic. And I was also talking about, not that I'm going to, we're going to have you on here and ask you to talk shit about Al Pachino. Cause that is not what I'm doing, but I am saying, like we were saying, cause you do, obviously you do theater and do you do television and film? And that there is this thing of like, I guess people were criticizing Pachino for wearing ear pieces on when he was doing plays because he couldn't remember shit. And I don't fault him for that. And I also just wondered, like, what was it like working with because you're, you're a trained theater actor.
1 (29m 52s):
What was it like working with someone like Al Pachino? I mean, yeah.
4 (29m 56s):
I mean, I think Albert Chino has earned his stripes to wear earpieces onstage. If he needs to, like, it's like you reach a certain point in your career and you know, your age where it's give the man whatever he wants. If he wants a billboard, he wants me to write like, just do it. Yes. But I, I didn't have the opportunity to work with him. One-on-one in a scene, but I was in the room when we did a table read and he is such a clown, you know, like this is funny and goofy and came in with wild hair and was just like, okay, what are we reading today?
3 (30m 40s):
Yeah, that's perfect. That tracks. Okay. So from carving up frogs in a windowless room to what you really were meant to do, what happened? What was the middle? What was the middle path?
4 (30m 53s):
Oh my gosh. So while I was at Xavier university, I had like a come to Jesus moment. I was like, I really want to do what I want to do in life. And what is that thing? And I remember that I really enjoyed like spirit week in high school. So, and I would get so involved. I would like create things and I loved creating events and decorating that. So I said, well, maybe I should get into advertising because that's a great vehicle for that. And you can convince people and I guess you can help people dependent on So I got into advertising, I changed my major.
4 (31m 33s):
I got a devastating phone call from my mom while I was working at express. And she said that we lost our house and I can't help you financially with your education. So I was on my own and I had to figure out, how am I going to pay for school? How am I going to, you know, pay extra bills and such. And so I wanted to go to Howard university cause I was from that area. And my mom suggested going to Jackson state university because my sister lived there with her husband in Jackson, Mississippi. So hurricane Katrina had come along, pushed me upward and ended up staying in Mississippi because it was cheaper.
4 (32m 14s):
I got a degree in mass communications, graduated Summa cum laude, got a job working in, in a nonprofit organization, helping kids was having a great time, helping kids and teaching and educating, getting them involved with community engagement. But then I was miserable. Like I was like pulling my hair out and couldn't figure out why am I not happy doing this great thing for the community? And I sat down with the head of acting at the time at Jackson and Jackson state university. And he said, you know, are you doing what you're are you doing what you're supposed to be doing in life? Are you doing the thing that lights your fire?
4 (32m 57s):
And I wasn't. And I said, and he said from L what is it going to take for you to go and follow that thing that you would do no matter what,
1 (33m 4s):
How did you know this human? How did you I'm so super solid.
4 (33m 8s):
It's it's so funny because I was, I pledged alpha Phi alpha fraternity incorporated at Jackson state university. And he is also an alpha and part of the organization, what we do, we have like regional conventions and the college brothers get to compete in some of these conventions. And so one of the competitions is a speech competition. And so I made the chapter, put me up to participate in the speech competition. And since this gentleman, Dr. Margie Henderson is a speech theatrical guy. He was the best person to serve as a mentor and coach.
4 (33m 48s):
So he met me through that.
1 (33m 49s):
That's amazing. So my whole thing in life now is if we don't have a mentor, we're fucked. I, I mean, I just cannot, and it's not a parent cause they do their own jobs. It's not even a TIAA. It has to be for me, it's someone that is not related to us, usually by blood, but is we are seeing represents something in us that we want to cultivate, that they are either doing or they can see. And I it's amazing. So you found this and then didn't, were you like, oh, I got to light my fire. I got to do it. Yeah.
4 (34m 23s):
Yeah. I got to light my fire and he saw, he saw much like my mom, he saw this talent within me and he said, you need to go follow your passion because you will be miserable for the rest of your life. And he, and he was right. It was absolutely right. And then I'm going to grad school and this is such a wild route. I ended up going to grad school and then the graduate program, I was supposed to go to university of Iowa. I didn't have the funding at the last minute. So they had to resend the offer. I spent two years in Mississippi, again, saving money, getting the legs, doing regional theater and a new stage theater. I worked with Jaylee productions and kind of getting the girth that I needed.
4 (35m 3s):
So I wasn't as green. And then university of Tennessee, Jen diamond, the head of acting popped up and he was like, why don't you come play with us?
1 (35m 11s):
Let me tell you something. I'm really glad you did not go to Iowa. I just want to say having been to Iowa. No, no, I'll go to Tennessee. Oh no, no, you, you, I don't know that you would. We know. So I'm glad you ended up where you ended up and Tennessee, it looks like, I'm sure it had its own plethora of challenges. Obviously they did, you know that, but okay. So did you like the school? You hate it? What was your master's degree like there?
4 (35m 41s):
So it was, it was a tender process, you know, because I was the only one in the program. It was a culture shock for me. Of course, you know, everyone in my class was lovely. You know, they were very giving and supportive, but they didn't quite understand exactly where I was coming from. And couldn't necessarily speak to the culture in which that I came from my teachers, it was a lot of they're doing the best they can, but there was so many blind spots and lot of microaggressions that was happening. I'll give you an example. Okay. This is, this, isn't a necessarily a funny anecdote, but it's like funny, ironic anecdote.
4 (36m 25s):
Okay. So I was doing Putnam county spelling bee and I was playing the comfort counselor, Mitch Mahoney. And this was the first time was breaking records here because this was the first time a first year grad student was in a production on campus.
1 (36m 43s):
Big deal. It's a big deal. That was the same for us. We wouldn't have been in that.
4 (36m 48s):
Yeah. So all eyes are on me. Right. I remember the way I was supposed to come in. I came from the back of the house. I had a hoodie on and I would walk through down the vom on the stage. And I would literally hear people say, oh my God, where does this hoodlum coming from? You need to get him out of the theater. People would gasp. I would stand on stage and tell people to get up. I, there was an, there was an elderly woman who grabbed her purse and like searched for the door.
1 (37m 19s):
Oh my God.
4 (37m 21s):
And people literally told me after the show that they thought I was going to Rob the place 300 seat theater me, I'm going to Rob up.
1 (37m 31s):
How did you get through that without saying, fuck this I'm outta here.
4 (37m 37s):
Oh no. I said, fuck this. And I said, I'm going to show you your prejudice. And I'm gonna show you how idiot idiotic you are. And my, my insurance got more grander. It got more batter. It got tougher. Like it went from me, treadmill, walking in as a character to me from, from Southeast Anacostia Berry farms, like, fuck what you heard I'm here, which you got like, it was just, just brash.
3 (38m 2s):
You made lemonade out of lemons.
1 (38m 4s):
Yes. <inaudible>
3 (38m 9s):
I wish I could say, wow, you're the first person of color we're having on our program. Who's describing a theater school experience, but actually every single person of color that we've interviewed has had unfortunately, a very similar story to tell. Now what I'm curious about is did anything change to your knowledge from the time you started till now at that school,
4 (38m 31s):
There was many instances where we had conversations about, you know, issues like this, about racial equality, having conversations about how to deal with one, another microaggressions were, were shared. Actions were, were done. And I honestly, I had to pick my battles. You know, I had to figure out what's more important. Am I going to get through this program? Or I'm going to like annihilate every white person who is just saying something sideways into the,
1 (39m 2s):
And I feel like there's also like a thing that happens where people, yeah. You have to choose your own survival at a certain point, rather than try to educate, be the, have the one person, you know, black man of color, trying to fucking change a whole goddamn university is like asking a bit much. And also you just gotta get the fuck out and then maybe you can make changes later. Once you're, you've, you've grown and now you have whatever inner resources to be like, this shit was fucked up, which is what we do. We're like talking to people and getting their stories later and being like, oh, this was fucked up. Let's see if it's changed. Okay. So you graduated. Did you, did you, did you get, do you feel like you got acting training that you really liked at the time?
4 (39m 47s):
Oh God. Yes. Oh God. Yeah. And it just one thing I wanted to say to add on to that Jen and anyone who's listening, it's not our job to educate anybody. It is not our, it is not our job. It's their job to educate themselves period. So, but it took me a while to get to that point where I was like, okay, this is not my problem. I am becoming the punching bag for the result of the problem, but it's is not my issue. So let me go do it. Okay.
1 (40m 18s):
Right. And the other thing, I just really quick, our theater school experience, I had a boyfriend at the time who was white and I went to visit his parents and they were making jokes about Latino cleaning ladies and doing voices and all this stuff. And, and I said nothing. And then after roots, he said to me, why didn't you speak up? Why didn't you tell my parents? And I said, why is it? And I was like, oh, I'm ashamed. And then I was like, where the fuck did he speak about
4 (40m 46s):
Yeah, exactly. If he knew that was an issue, why didn't he
1 (40m 49s):
Anyway? So that's the whole thing about people trying to change anyway. Okay.
4 (40m 53s):
Yeah. I hear you. But to answer your question, I did, I got a lot of really valuable tools in grad school that helped me build character as much that I used while I was doing severance, you know, that toolbox. So there was a lot of quality training and a really tender experience that I had, but it made me tougher. It made me stronger. I can't say that that being on set nowadays, it's much different. You know, severance is primarily white, you know, that's, you know, behind the camera, it's primarily male is primarily straight male. So it's like being in these environments.
4 (41m 35s):
It's like, I knew that walking into this, I could either let this control me and hamper me or I can let it bolster it. I can let it feed me so that I know that all the environments that I am going to be, and I'm not going, it's not all going to look like me. So it's like, Tramell what are you going to do? How are you going to use this to allow this to fuel you forward?
3 (42m 0s):
So you don't have to answer for, for severance. But I did wonder about that when I was watching the show, I did think it was how intentional was this to make, you know, I guess is it, is, are you the only black character? No. No, but there's only a few, right?
4 (42m 18s):
It's a handful.
3 (42m 19s):
How intentional was it on behalf of the writers that I've never really looked into anything about the writing of the show. So maybe that'll be my homework for later to figure out if that was an intentional stance. But so now when you are on my favorite show
1 (42m 36s):
Or her favorite show, just
3 (42m 37s):
Talk to me about, I want to know about the experience of auditioning and how excited you were about it from the first time you read the material and callbacks and all that stuff and love to hear a good audition story.
4 (42m 49s):
Yeah. So as far as whether or not the intentionality of the racial makeup of the show was there, that I'm not sure about. I really did appreciate that when we saw key or the town of key or outside of lumen, we started seeing multi-racial faces even in O and D we saw multi-racial faces, and I appreciated that. So, and I wonder as the season continues or the seasons come on, that we'll start to see more people of color. And it's just this town where there's a marsh positive, different cultures, which I am hoping for.
1 (43m 26s):
You know, that would be fantastic.
4 (43m 28s):
Yeah. So when it comes to the, the audition process, so I came across severance in 2019, near the end of 2019 while I was doing the great society and Lincoln
1 (43m 42s):
Center on Broadway.
4 (43m 45s):
That was my Broadway day.
1 (43m 46s):
It was so off. I didn't see it, but that's amazing Lincoln center where you scared.
4 (43m 52s):
Oh my gosh, I was there. The tension was there, but I had a friend of mine who was at Lincoln center. And he was like, listen, the heated toilet seats with the other day is what I'm changed yours.
1 (44m 3s):
Okay. So you were able to like embrace the awesomeness.
4 (44m 6s):
Yes. I embraced it. I enjoy it.
1 (44m 9s):
I'd be like, I'm not going to sit on this toilet seat because they're going to fucking charge me so I won't sit down. But anyway. Okay. So you're you, you, you were you okay. You came across it at 20 and 2019 when you were doing the play.
4 (44m 22s):
Well, I was doing the play. We got word that we're closing early, cause it's a tough play. And I went to the audition and I didn't know what this was about. I wasn't sure it was kind of eerie, but you know, it's one of many auditions. You go, you do the thing and then you leave. And I went and did the thing and I left and I got a call back was really, really excited because then I started to sink my teeth deeper into the character, into the show. And I had very, very limited information about the character. But I said, this is something I'm really excited about. I really want to make this work. And, and I knew that the callback was featuring or involving Ben Stiller and Dan Erickson, they were going to be in the room.
4 (45m 2s):
So I said, if nothing else, I get to be in the room with Ben Stiller. So this is like, this is so callback audition. I was running like a few minutes late because of transportation. I was coming from Washington Heights and I was going into the Bronx because we film out in the Bronx. I basically ran on foot from one bridge to the other bridge. The other bridge I was like in this industrial part of the Bronx, like there was this guy, I was w I was racing this guy who was, had an old refrigerator in a shopping cart and was looking at me weird. And I was running in a full suit, like running neck and back, I turned a corner and these guys were standing there loading like rolls of carpet.
4 (45m 51s):
And one dude stopped me. He's like, Hey, you want to see me what? This guy's ass? And I turned around. I said, you know, maybe later I got to go to an audition. And then I read and they started laughing and then I'm running across the bridge. People are looking at like, what the hell? Then I finally get to the studio. The audition is on the other side of the
1 (46m 7s):
Studio.
4 (46m 7s):
So it's like an hour long run. I'm like sweating and running and, and I get there and it's perfect because the way the audition is set up, no one knew what time I came in. So it was like, I could just sit and just kind of sign it. And then it was,
1 (46m 25s):
There was no like monitor there, like Mr. Steelers rush right into your, did you have to rush right into the meeting?
4 (46m 33s):
No. I was able to just sit and breathe, wipe the sweat. Awesome. Brown.
1 (46m 37s):
Can we ask you something when you hear that Ben, Stiller's going to be in your callback? Like I had a similar thing when I was still acting a lot where they did that. They said Lily, which house ski from chow ski sisters from matrix is going to be in your audition with some other people. And it threw me so much that I was, how, how are you able to, and this is why I really don't do a lot of acting anymore because I'm not able to get over my fucking self. So how were you able to be like, you know what, I'm gonna do my job, regardless of like, you, you seemed excited that Ben Stiller was going to be there. How, okay. So like, what do you do internally to be like, you know what?
1 (47m 17s):
I'm walking into the room with Ben Stiller. I'm gonna fucking do my job. How do you get there?
4 (47m 23s):
Well, one of course I prepared. I prepared like hell. And I think I harassed every person I knew to help me run these lines so that I wouldn't allow the nurse to take over to. I changed my perspective of the room. I realized that this was my time and this was an opportunity for them to get to know me. And they are fortunate to get to know who I am as an actor, you know? And then I also changed my view of Ben Stiller and Dan Erickson. And I said to myself, they're not rooting against you. They want you to solve the problem.
4 (48m 4s):
So they're rooting for,
1 (48m 5s):
Right. I, I think it's like making people, a member of your team versus an, a collaborator versus they are in power. And I feel like for a lot of like othered communities and women and other, it's so hard to feel like I belong. I speak for myself in the room with these fancy people. But like, if I could do that, what you're what you did. I probably would've worked a fucking fuck ton more than I did as an actor because I couldn't get over it. But you were able to like center yourself and like these people are on my team.
3 (48m 39s):
Yeah. But you're also telling us that you've been doing this your whole life. I mean, every story you've told me so far, you sound very self-possessed. You sound very, I mean that those of us, that people who listen to this podcast know that we, we spent really the majority of our lives feeling. We had no idea what was going on and only are now in middle age, getting to the point where we feel like we have a little bit more agency and understanding sort of our role that we play in our, in our own lives. But it feels to me that going back to sitting in bio lab and saying, this is not for me. And also not to mention your, your mom giving you this devastating news and that not being an obstacle to your success, that you, that you, that you viewed that sure.
3 (49m 24s):
As a challenge, but something that, it sounds like you thought you were equipped to take on this challenge. So this sense of self-possession have you always had it and did you have to develop it?
4 (49m 34s):
Oh God, no, no. I, I, for me, this is, this is operating out of a sense of, you cannot fail. You have to succeed. You have to figure it out. Like, because the option is like wallowing in a gutter somewhere and, you know, falling to pieces or succumbing to, to the darkness in that way, you know? So it was like, you get yo ass up and you figure your shit out for me, you know? And whether or not the self-possession, I think the self-possession came along the way, you know, there's that thing, you fake it till you make it, you know, but I didn't always have it.
4 (50m 16s):
And you know, I'm still working towards it because this industry is, is, is so hard. And if you don't have the confidence or the support or the sense of community, it can, it can ruin you because there is so much rejection and there is so much waiting and uncertainty. Okay.
1 (50m 35s):
Okay. Yes, absolutely. So you walk into that room, you, you, you're there, like it's your certs your time. And so you walk in there and what happens at the back?
4 (50m 46s):
So I walk in, I sit down, I do the scene with hellyes Haley's party, you know, so we're doing that scene and I make Ben's still alive. And I said, if I don't get the part, it is like, I don't know, my Hersha Ali gets cast in this part, you know, that's fine. But you know what? I made Ben Stiller
1 (51m 14s):
Amazing. That's fantastic
3 (51m 18s):
Image of you riding alongside this man with the grocery cart. I love this poetry of this, right? Because you were describing, like, if you had let things pull you off your track, if you had let yourself be felled by your obstacles, you could have been with a person, you know, running down, maybe not, maybe not run down the street with a grocery cart, but you could have
4 (51m 40s):
In
3 (51m 40s):
That lane there, and you're running out Broadway or whatever it was. And to the Bronx, you could have been in a different position that you were in and it is sort of your own perseverance in part that yeah. Got you.
1 (51m 51s):
Okay. So you meant, you made Benz to her lap and then you later you leave or do they have you do another scene?
4 (51m 57s):
I believe they had me do another scene. I can't remember the other city.
1 (52m 1s):
No, we know what happened, something good. So you leave, they say, thank you so much for coming. You
4 (52m 6s):
Leave. And
1 (52m 7s):
Then does your agent, is your agent like you're on check avail right away?
4 (52m 11s):
Well, so I leave, I will, before I leave, I asked what happened next. Like, you know, so what do y'all do now? And they said, well, then we're going to go audition guys for the role in LA. So I said, oh, okay. So I wasn't the only
1 (52m 26s):
You're so you're so fucking awesome and brave to ask them what happens next. My dumb ass runs out of there. Like I'd rather be fucking anywhere else, but you're like, Hey, what happens next? Like, if that is an adult thing to do, okay. So they're say we're going to LA. And you're like, okay.
4 (52m 43s):
So I was like, alright, this is gonna take a couple of days. And I said, all right, well then, you know, well, good luck. It we'll be in touch. And I was like, yeah, we'll be in touch again, taking charge of the room, but not being a Dick about like, just like, you know, it's your time, it's your space. And letting them know that you're interested without being desperate, you know, that kinda thing, you know? So then I leave and I immediately, I wait until I get out of the studio and I call my team and I'm like screaming and I'm jumping up and down, you know? And, and they said, okay, well now we wait. And we waited. It probably was like a week and a half. Okay. It is,
1 (53m 20s):
I love Rachel tenor. I've worked with Rachel tenor before. I love her. She's she she's amazed that she knows she used to be in Chicago and that's where we're from. Oh yeah. And she, you should. Yeah. Oh yeah. And so anyway, so Rachel tenders office, did Riley tell you? I don't know who it was?
4 (53m 38s):
No. No. They, so Rachel called my manager and was, they were talking about something else. I'm talking about another project. Cause you know, of course they have other people they represent and she was, they were about to get off the phone and Rachel says, oh, grunt my manager. You know what your mail got the part. Right. Just off hand. It just like, you know, he got it right. And I'm like, and then Tikrit calls me and he was like, and he calls my agent. So my agent and my manager was on the phone and I know that's either really good news or really bad news is it's either one or the other. So I was like, okay, y'all are both on the phone. What's going on? Tell me what's going on. And it was like, are you ready? And I was like, yes.
4 (54m 18s):
He's like, you booked it. You're going to be on separate.
1 (54m 22s):
That's so awesome. And also, let me just tell you something, the, the it's interesting because this business is so wackadoo, like in that, in that Rachel just, it's like an, it's like a little things that they're just living their life, but means so much to other people. So like her, like, you know this and, and, and she's just doing her job, but like for us on the other end of that, it's like my whole life just changed by an offhanded comment to Tikrit, to my manager.
3 (54m 53s):
And do you have a, a practice that you do when you're cause sometimes it's a lot longer than a week. You have to wait, do you have a practice? Something that you'd really try to do in the waiting? Cause I find the waiting to be so excruciating.
4 (55m 7s):
I obsess, no,
1 (55m 10s):
I just feel everything
4 (55m 13s):
Eating my feelings. Now I really try to do what I can to let it go and move on. I try not to think about it. I usually don't tell people about auditions. I stopped doing that because then people ask about it and then I'm starting to obsess about the audition and did I do this? So I, when I go for an audition, I just go do it. And then I take the, the sides and I throw it away. And then that's symbolic for me and representative of me to, of me letting this go. And if I don't hear back, I don't hear back. And then just move on to the next thing. And
1 (55m 44s):
So, okay. So it was a week and a half, Rachel, your, your team calls you you're like. Yeah. And do you feel in that moment, like your whole life is about to change? It has changed.
4 (55m 52s):
Oh my gosh. I said, I said in that moment I said 2020 is going to be the best year.
1 (55m 58s):
Oh shit. I'm forgetting about, I'm forgetting about what year it was. Oh, my,
4 (56m 8s):
I got the gig in January of 2020. I remember the day that I found out that we weren't doing it. I went in for a fitting. I went in for a fitting. It was my first fitting. They had all these suits lined up and belts and socks and shoes. It was great. I said, this is we're building the character. This is coming together at the tail end of the fitting. A PA comes in and says, there's an emergency meeting. We all need to go in. I was not invited to the meeting. I walked out, the studio was vacant. Nobody was there. Everybody was in this meeting. I get an email saying we're going to pause production for two weeks.
4 (56m 50s):
And I, and I thought in my mind, I said, this is nowhere in the world. It's going to be two weeks. So it turns into eight months. We picked back up September, October, we're part of the first production to start back up and we're, we're navigating it as best we can. We're following CDC rules. We're doing everything that we can to keep everybody safe. Our COVID specialists were fantastic, but it was, it was nerve wrecking because there weren't vaccines available at that time. And this was the only profession that you could accomplish your work. The only way you could do it is no mask. So we had to be masked was in order.
4 (57m 31s):
And you know, Patricia Arquette has even talked about vocally, how it was stressful for her because she was like yelling in people's faces as Cobell. And it was like, I don't know if I'm giving you something and if you're giving me something it's it was bananas. But we pushed through, I mean, it took us 11 months to film the first season, but we finished it and we got it done.
3 (57m 57s):
I'm so glad, by the way you mentioned fitting and your costume, because your costume is actually one of the most interesting parts about your character that can come off the way I meant it. I meant to say, I find your costume so much more integral to your character than necessarily any of the other characters. It's so perfect. Was it a collaboration? Did you say no, I want the short sleeves. What? Tell, tell us about your,
4 (58m 21s):
Oh, I love that. So Sarah Edwards, who's our wardrobe, a costume designer. I worked with Ben Stiller of course, to try to figure out who MailChimp was. And I in the process was kind of going along for the ride because of course they had more Intel about sure. I can of course, in the world. Right? So originally we started with the jacket and you know, and that was in the first step of sewed. You noticed the jacket never comes never, ever, ever, ever. Ben was so in love with the short sleeve white shirt was so specific. He said, this is the look I want to go with this look. So we kept that. I was very finicky.
4 (59m 2s):
I was very selective about the ties. I wanted the tie to be shaped a certain way, tied in a very specific way. The pants were like up on the belly button, you know, that was very specific, very clean, pristine shoes. Everything was, you know, intentional, you've talked
3 (59m 20s):
Several times about
1 (59m 20s):
Creating the character and giving like the dignity to the character. When I think a lot of people just go in and say the lines and do the thing. And not that they're not bad that they're bad actors. They're good actors, but you really like care about crafting the world of your characters, which is a whole nother level, which means that you're giving the dignity of, you know, to your characters. And I think it comes across in the show. It's like, you just buy in, I just buy it.
3 (59m 50s):
There was one of the things I really like about your costume is, you know, with the short sleeves, you it's, it's this nod to a physicality that you have right later in the season, we're going to see you sprinting. So it, it kind of fits that you, you, that you have to be sort of, you have to be physically, the character has to be physically ready for anything. And in this world that's so everything is so circumscribed and utilitarian. I feel, I feel like it really works. What did you mean about the tie? You had a certain way. You want it to have a tie? Like you had opinions about that?
4 (1h 0m 31s):
Oh yes. Cause I, I, I felt that that was part of the pristine of middle check and, you know, there's different knots you can make with a tie, but I wanted it extremely triangular and clean and crisp and wanted to make sure that that dimple, I wanted them to have a Dipple in the tie. So, you know, the, the dressers would always ask, do you want us to tie the pre tie, the tie for you? Or do you want to do it yourself? And I said, this is part of my process. Building milkshake is how he ties his tasks. So it's very, very clean.
1 (1h 1m 4s):
It's just like so thoughtful that I it's just, when I get on set and I look around, there are people like you on set and I'm like, this person, this is what they're supposed to be doing. This is like, remember we talked about the fire, right? Like
4 (1h 1m 20s):
This
1 (1h 1m 20s):
Is your fire that your juice is there. And it's like, I had the same similar thing working with someone named Jimmy Simpson. Who's like worked all over. But like, like you, I feel like, I feel like the same with you when I would watch you on set. I bet I would be like, oh, this is their world. This is where they shine. They can do a bunch of things. That's not what I'm saying, but what I'm saying is like, you're meant to be on set, creating this world with these people. And it's interesting you sprint later, right? And you also sprinted to the, to the callback. Like it does, it was your role. Like this is your role.
4 (1h 1m 57s):
This
1 (1h 1m 57s):
Is your world and you belong there. And I, oh man, it's so cool to hear.
3 (1h 2m 3s):
So because your character, we see a lot less of what your personal, like your sort of your inner life is. How does that affect the work that you're the actor work that you're doing? Do you have you just built your own story that you have internally that may or may not continue to be reflected as the seasons go on? And the story goes on, maybe we are going to learn a lot more about Mr. Milkshakes, like personalized, but how did you approach that acting work with that in mind?
4 (1h 2m 34s):
It definitely increases the acting work when you don't have a lot of backstory, but that's, that's where the creative juices flow for me. And that's what I get excited about. You know, I've always said that I've never really been enthralled with playing the romantic lead. I always like playing the supporting or the villain because they always have the, the most intense story. They're the most interesting, you know, so with this show, because I wasn't sure the tone of it, we were building it, finding it, it was up to me to kind of make sense of it and connect the dots. It's like, why would this man with a name like Seth milkshake, a black man, specifically, he is specifically black work at this company that has a history of white men and a few women taking rule over it in a small town that is governed by lumen in a way, why would he do this?
4 (1h 3m 38s):
And how does he fit into this world? How does, how does it make sense? So for me, it was a lot of trial and error error. I was doing a lot of research. I was trying to find, you know, looking into Colts, looking into military, you know, all of these things to make the, to make sense of this because he is extremely specific and I didn't want him to, to become a caricature, nor did I want him to become a clown. And, you know, Dan and Ben were very, we were all agreed on that. But if you like listen to the language and you see the world, it's easy for it to slip it to that.
4 (1h 4m 18s):
Right. So you have to we're towing that line off it to try to figure out what is the smart way to tell this story.
1 (1h 4m 27s):
So interesting to me, like you talked about before, about Hollywood. And like, I think one of the reasons that I wanted to become a television writer was to be in the room, creating the world from day one, down, down, down, down at the ground level. And I think in a show like severance, it really shows that I don't know the makeup of their writer room. I have no idea the writer's room for severance, but I'm assuming that Ben wrote the pie. Did whatever the point is. No. Who wrote the pilot? Dan, Dan. Dan. So Ben didn't read it at all. Okay, great. But the thing is like, I just think the specificity involved in this is what makes shows work for me is the specificity.
1 (1h 5m 9s):
And I think it starts from the pilot and the show runners, and then how they work with the cast who creates world. I Allah, you know, better call Saul in breaking bad and Ozark and all those things you can tell it is like a fucking group collaboration where everyone has, has bought in, like everyone is on board and everyone seems to be. And I think the writing really helps with that. It's like, you can always stand behind the script. And maybe if there's questions, I don't know. This is a question for you. Were you able to say like, if something felt weird in your mouth or if you were like word wise and if you were, were you able to have discussions like that with the writers or like
4 (1h 5m 50s):
Absolutely. Dan Dan was on set every day, then was on set and around. And what I loved about it is that there were S there were times where we could just stop and discuss and say like, what is this? What are we saying? You know, what about this language? Actually, there was a, there was a moment and I wish we had a photographer on set to capture this, but there was a moment in the elevator banks where there's these two seats there. It was me. And then, and we were rewriting a scene together. I wish someone could capture that moment because I would like put that on my wall. And so it was like, that was the level of collaboration and actually the scene that we were rewriting together, it was the, the basement, the stairwell scene where a heli is coming in and out and I'm standing with her.
4 (1h 6m 38s):
So it was that scene where we were like, trying to like, okay, what's the language, what makes sense? And that love that some of my favorite parts of this work that we do
3 (1h 6m 48s):
Behind the scenes, like a documentary, you know, how they do, they do like a feature at about the making.
4 (1h 6m 53s):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I hope so. I haven't heard anything, but I hope so
1 (1h 6m 58s):
When I really appreciate about this is that one you were able, it sounds like to fully embrace your first like mega roll. I would call it on a, on a huge hit TV show. You were ready. It sounds like you were ready. So like in casting, my friend who works in casting says, like, she never says like, oh, they were bad or good. They are ready for the part or not quite ready for the part. And what I'm hearing is, and I love that way of looking at it because there are so many auditions. I am not quite ready for it. I mean, clearly, but what the one, but you were, you were ready for this role. And I just want to let you know, like, cause we have a lot of, I teach at a conservatory a little bit and I just always say like, sometimes it takes a while to get ready for your role.
1 (1h 7m 48s):
And it's sometimes quickly sometimes slowly, but you, this is your role. Like it's so clear. And so I guess my question is like, not to jump too far ahead, but like what other roles, like, what do you want to do with your career? Like what do you, what's your dream post whenever I hope severance goes for a very long time, but you also do you want to go to the juice stage? What's your, what's your dream?
4 (1h 8m 11s):
I mean, I want to have a career where I can pick and choose where I can do it all, where I can decide if I'm going to direct a film out in South Africa, or if I'm going to join the writing room in, in Nevada for a new series, or if I'm going to do an eight season arc in Canada, like I just, or do a Broadway show for 16 weeks. I want to be in that place of autonomy because we're told often as actors and as artists, that we don't have it, that we don't have the opportunity to choose. And I, I, I feel that's bullshit. We do, we do have a choice. We can say, no, we can walk away and listen.
4 (1h 8m 52s):
I've there were many moments in my career where I said no, and I didn't have anything lined up and I didn't have the credits either. So it's, it's willing being able to, you know, take those risks that leads things and having the autonomy. I'm very big on non-profit management and philanthropy. I want to continue in those works. You know, I support causes that LGBTQ causes mental health causes, educational equity, and really want to see that come to light and want to continue that work as well.
3 (1h 9m 29s):
What are your favorite things about doing television show versus your favorite things about doing theater?
4 (1h 9m 36s):
Hm. Favorite things about doing a television show, craft services? No, no. I think my favorite thing is, is the challenge of understanding the audience, right? Because in television, usually the audience is you and the camera. So everything is a lot smaller. And with that scale, for me, things become more specific and there are gestures. There are moments, there are pauses that are caught on camera that we might not see on, on stage.
4 (1h 10m 18s):
What I love about stage is there's nothing like performing live. It's not feeling like it, you know, and it, and it tests, it tests the will. I believe Phylicia, Rashad said, television gets you. The money film gets you. The thing in theater gets you the street cred. And that's real. If you could, if you're a theater actor, you got so many props because you could do, you can do a lot of things. You can be big. And if you're big, you can be at you. You can know how to scale it back so that it translate on television.
1 (1h 10m 56s):
It's true. It's harder to like bring out something that's not really there than it is to scale it back. Like if you, I always say like right to my students and stuff like right. Fat, you know? Right. Big do the big thing. We can always pull it back. But like, if it's not there, you can't pull it from nowhere. So
4 (1h 11m 12s):
That's, there you go.
3 (1h 11m 13s):
Is your mom still living?
4 (1h 11m 15s):
She has.
3 (1h 11m 16s):
And so T where is she now tell us about where she's come from from calling you and saying she couldn't help you financially.
4 (1h 11m 24s):
So my mom is in Houston, Texas. She is living with my sister and my brother-in-law and my beautiful niece and nephew. Who's getting ready to graduate high school, this like, and I remember holding him in my arms and 2005 anyway, but my mom she's, she's doing really well. I had the opportunity to spend mother's day weekend with her and seeing my family on both sides. And she's just enjoying her day. She's getting ready to celebrate her 70 and
3 (1h 11m 58s):
She's
4 (1h 11m 58s):
Yeah, she's a young lady, very spry.
3 (1h 12m 1s):
She has, she always known of your talent. And were you a kid who was maybe singing and dancing or putting on shows?
4 (1h 12m 8s):
Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. There's so many characters in my family. We're all hams hams. But my, my desire to, to take film was, or take stage was always in small spaces. I only did it in my room, you know, and my mom saw that I had the talent and skill set and she said, you need to utilize this. And so she pushed me and challenged me. She was my first acting coach
3 (1h 12m 35s):
Really was. She
4 (1h 12m 37s):
Taught me how to act. Well, she never got paid to be an actor, but she has the personality. She's got the verb. And she, she knows what works and what does it, she was like, I don't believe you. This is not working. You know, you got to get into the character. I got, I believe you. I want to said the passion, you know?
3 (1h 12m 53s):
Oh, she must be so gratified to see you on television now. I mean, cause it's a real, I mean, the thing about the show is, is that reds, it's all good actors because you really cannot fake your way in the show. This show because of the tone of what you were describing, how that it's hard to find the tone when something has a tone like that. If you don't know exactly what you're doing with your character, all times, it really shows that it really sticks out like a sore thumb, right? Yep. And you've got those John Turturro and CR, oh my God. Did you get, do you been able to watch them do their stuff? We can being, being on set and watching John's juror?
4 (1h 13m 30s):
Well, when I was able to write, you know, cause with COVID, we try to keep people separate as much as possible, but some of my favorite moments on set was just watching Patricia Arquette and Adam Scott and John and Chris and you know, the office scenes, just sitting there, watching them interact with one another because I learned so much, you know, I'm listening to the, to the voices and the placement for the pauses and the breadth and all of that. It's just absorbing all of that.
1 (1h 14m 2s):
I love that. I love it. I love watching masters at work and you and I have a feeling, I would watch you the same way when I'm on set. And I watched someone that is just doing their they're just fricking pros. And I'm like, oh, this is it. This is what, this is the thing that we're all trying to do, but it's not easy. And it takes a lot and it takes work and it's not just being a beautiful person. You actually have to fucking work your ass off and you, you know,
3 (1h 14m 33s):
And you know how they say it like with Ella Fitzgerald, her thing was, yeah, she had a great voice, but really it was her phrasing and some of the greatest singers. It's it's yeah, it's the quality of their voice, but it's the way that they phrase things. And actually your show is full of actors who make unusual choices with phrasing and Kate sort of cadence and structure. It makes it so riveting to watch. Well, okay. So tell people where they can find you tell people what you've got coming up. I know you're on social media. So tell people where they can find you.
4 (1h 15m 5s):
Yes. I'm on Instagram. Tramell dot Tillman. I'm there. Catch me on apple TV plus watch severance. If you haven't enjoy it, where else am I? What else?
1 (1h 15m 17s):
Well, wait, are you feeling what's weird. Where are you in filming? Like what's happening with the show? I mean, you don't have to know spoilers, but like are you done? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So like, what is the future what's happening?
4 (1h 15m 27s):
So maybe possibly seasoned to be in the fall. You so waiting to get. Yeah, but it's coming season two is.
1 (1h 15m 37s):
Okay. Great. Because that what I was like, whoa, I don't want any, please don't ruin my day. That would be a really bad way to end this. And then do you still, like, while you're doing a show like this, or while it's on hiatus or whatever, are you auditioning for a million other things or is your team,
4 (1h 15m 55s):
I mean, we're still going. We're still, we actually, while I was in LA doing FYC, you know, this season I was filming a pilot called ramble on, I can say this now. Cause it's, it's Al ramble on with Doug Ellen, Kevin Connolly and Kevin Dylan, you know? So what's it
3 (1h 16m 14s):
About?
4 (1h 16m 16s):
So Kevin Connolly and Kevin, Dylan are embarking upon doing a podcast. You know, they're, they're coming off of what is it? 10 years since entourage. And so their life has changed since. And so they're finding other people to be a part of this podcast and I don't want to give any spoilers away, but there's a lot of big names that are part of this as well.
2 (1h 16m 49s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Jana Polizzi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.