Welcome to Speak the Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church in counseling and discipleship. Hello. Hello. Hello. We are back at studio, and I am continuing this Han Solo episode of counseling through as we continue to look at the counseling through God's attributes.

And I've got a special guest with us. She hasn't been on the podcast, but she is an ABC partner. I've got Ellen Dykes. Ellen, how are we doing?

Hey, Mike. Yeah. I'm looking forward to our conversation today.

So am I. As y'all have heard, we've been going through the counseling through God's attributes. And what's been interesting about these is sometimes we have people choosing the same text or the same attributes, but the way they write about it is just super helpful. And so for our counselors out there, those of you who are pursuing or as counselors in training or already counseling, I pray that this resource would be super helpful for you and also our conversation with Ellen as she dives into her particular submission and contribution as God as comforter. Ellen, tell me a little bit about yourself, where you are, where you serve vocationally.

Sure. Yeah. So I live in Philadelphia. I'm a transplant here from the great heartland of the Midwest. I grew up in St.

Louis, Missouri, and have been out here for about twenty years, moved out here actually to study biblical counseling, and have been with Harvest USA for a little over eighteen years. And Harvest is a little bit of an international ministry in light of our podcast and online presence, but we focus on kind of discipleship counseling and church equipping surrounding areas of sexuality and gender and the beauty of God's design, all the brokenness that comes with that, the brokenness that always is associated in relationships normally with those areas. And so I serve now as the director of equipping for ministry to women. So my first many years were really in the trenches, what we're talking about on the podcast. Was in one on one ministry.

Our focus for long term care and counseling is in our group. So I was in the midst of that for about sixteen years with women, strugglers, wrestling with some battle in sexual sin, and then ministry to wives who are in marriages impacted by sexual betrayal. For the last two years, I've been in a basically a full time equipping role. So I'm focused on producing content, doing teaching and training. Harvest USA is starting to put out video discipleship courses on our website, and I've gotten to be a part of four of those so far.

Actually, our new one launches next week. It's called hope in your heartbreak, first steps for sexually betrayed lives. So all of that is really a part along with my own story is the backdrop for why I chose the topic of comforter for the book.

That's really good. Thank you. And I will put those things that you mentioned content wise. I'll put those links from harvest USA in the show notes.

Great.

God's strengthening comfort is mercifully ours, and Christ was your heading slash subheading on the comforter. And just a text second Corinthians chapter one verses three through six. Let me go ahead and read that. Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the father of compassion, and the God of all comfort who comforts us in all our troubles so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. For just as the sufferings of Christ overflow to us, so also through Christ our comforter overflows.

If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort in salvation. If we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which accomplishes in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we experience. And so with that, Ellen, could you just give us a short summary of in this particular submission as using it as a counseling resource, just this short summary of sort of an introduction to a consulate that you would give as you were to read a text or share this text with the consulate in session?

Yep. I love this passage, and it's been an anchor passage for me in my own ministry to harvest. And so in light of that, part of the summary is this is a key text for us as counselors because people are coming to us with a variety of struggles, pain, addiction, sin, and the whole gamut of our human experience. Let's say maybe 90% of it, we haven't had the exact same experience that Council League has had. And what this scripture is promising us is that that's not a deal breaker, actually, because we are in Christ and we have the comfort that God's giving to us.

That's what is going to flow out to the people that we're ministering to. The idea of God's comfort and compared to tangible physical experiences, like pleasures, food, even sex itself, all the things that we have in this world, the comfort of Christ and what Paul's talking about here, it might seem elusive, unattainable, even unattractive to something that gives us a more immediate emotional or physical relational kickback in light of the comforts of this world. But no matter what is crushing our heart or is confusing us, troubling us, afflicting us, which are normal experiences in this world. In Christ, we have access to the truest comfort of all because it goes right into our hearts and spirits, which is not something that the things of this world can do. And so I want to I wanted to dig into this because it's been personally transformational for me in my own walk with Christ.

And as I mentioned, it's just been an anchor for me in light of people coming coming for help. Because I think pain, emotional relational pain, mental pain, all of that is a key underlying aspect of suffering that is connected to the afflictions that people are coming to us for counseling help.

Yeah. That's really good. And to that particular point, that is a human disposition is to maximize pleasure and minimize pain. And then just the spiritual implications of that conflict. So when Paul talks about the flesh and the spirit being at odds with each other and what you just said about the mental, the emotional anguish that we experience is very real and true to your point.

Like, it it can be at first glance a little elusive to us. So in that in sort of the way that this is formatted, we have this section. And for our listeners, you guys recognize this structure at this point. But the in session counseling, how would you and sort of light of what you just shared in session, how would you track this counsilee towards the comfort of Christ in that?

Yeah. Yeah. We would want to be leading into this in our first definitely initial, if not the following sessions of getting to know what is the counselle's story in light of pain and suffering. How does that connect to either the sin struggle they're bringing to us or a pain, a painful situation is why they're reaching out for counseling. Normally there's a lot of woven togetherness of both suffering.

So I'd want to get to know what is the story of the suffering and the pain that's connected to the situation that they're coming. But then I'd want to be leading into with this passage of let's look at this passage and see what is it saying to us about God? What is it saying to us about ourselves? Because there's so much here. It's normalizing affliction.

It's normalizing struggle. There's a we ness, a you plural in this that Paul is bringing up. This isn't just you and the Lord. There's a communal nature of this. So I'd want to be diving in with the council of tell me we might open up with this passage, then I'd want to be asking, like, what comes to mind when you think about comfort?

We could be ready with our own examples of, I've got this favorite blanket I would like to snuggle up within the fall or a hug from this beloved person in my life or something like mac and cheese or like you mentioned Chick fil A, maybe a Chick fil A meal when we were talking before we started recording. So I'd want to get to know both their story of suffering and then their understanding of comfort and try to get a sense of have they even made connections? Or is it on their faith radar screen that God's comfort isn't just this spiritualized idea? It's an actual real experience that is a part of our inheritance in Christ. So that'd be a lead in to the session.

I think that's great. Basically, rooting it in the idea of sanctification. Right? The process of change that the things that you used to take complete comfort in are pro more than likely should become a secondary comfort. Like, there there's a there's an ordering that's happening.

And so to your point about comforting and and how do they understand comfort and not dismissing their comforts and not saying that their comforts are legitimate and that they're not good because, obviously, there are creaturely comforts that God has blessed us with that we should enjoy, that God wants us to enjoy. But sometimes that that that whole idea of comforting becomes complicated and confusing because we're trying to lead out with the earthly creaturely comfort instead of the comfort that that the Lord's trying to give us. Is that Yeah. So when you were sharing that, it was I was thinking in that realm because it there is a reordering when the counseling is coming in because there's a high level of confusion and just disordering that's happening in their desires. So I just think that's a good point as far as the counseling point.

Right. And as counselors, we are in part a signpost to the comfort of the Lord. So our disposition, our manner with them, our tone of voice as we're talking about things is meant to be giving that counselee a taste of what God has for them in fullness and in abundance. Because yeah, our sanctification process being becoming more and more like Christ, a part of that is also going to be the healing of broken hearts, the binding up of wounds, the healing of crushed spirits, which we know that's a part of the very ministry that Jesus came to be and to fulfill, as we see in Isaiah 61 and Luke four sixteen-twenty one. And so I see all this is woven together.

When it comes to broken hearts, accessing or moving towards the Lord's comfort, I think it's really key for us as counselors to have those categories, both those categories really in our minds, which is where Paul goes. He's talking to a very troubled church full with so much of a history of sin, but he opens up his letter reminding them of God's mercy, that God is very compassionate to us, bending to us in the misery that we face in this life, and that he is a god of comfort, which refers to not just a soothing, which is true, but also a strengthening that God gives to us in the sufferings we have in this life, including, Mike, the suffering that comes from our own sinful choices. So I just think it's important to mention some of these things because we can go so quick to the repentance from sin. Yes. And amen.

And we but we also wanna have right alongside that the healing of broken hearts and the binding up of crushed spirits. I believe that's been part of what Paul is getting at and why he opens up this letter the way he does.

Yeah. No. That's really good. There is that compassion element too. It is it's not an opportunity to go sin hunting necessarily.

To be true, let's be honest. Some of us can we we go, as David Paulson said, on that idol hunt.

Yes.

And Yeah. And we can miss that person's

Yeah.

The the full aspect of who they are.

That's arguably, that's probably the biggest gun in our backpack to Paulson's point. But I the you bring a good distinction in that approach because it it's an approach issue. Right? So we do wanna be compassionate. We wanna recognize the reality of our brokenness, that there is a healing, which again is part of the sanctification.

Right? So, like, sanctification isn't necessarily just always confronting sin and and transforming that, but it's also just a peace and a mercy and a grace, which is like Paul's point and all the things that he mentions. But in in the in counseling session piece, you bring up as far as defining comfort, but then you bring up another point on defining a couple other words too. Like, in the structure of this, you have basically asking the consulee, how would they define mercy? How would they define comfort?

I wanna touch on that.

Well, this is really illuminating for me a while back when I was really studying this passage and just even studying the idea of of mercy. That's a word we can just say so eat flippantly. Oh, Lord have mercy or, oh, mercy me, as they might say maybe in the South. But it refers mercy refers to, as I mentioned a little bit ago, God's compassion to us as sinners and sufferers, like as his vulnerable, weak children who are facing afflictions in this life. So it's interesting that Paul is tying this in to describing God as our God and Father.

And many people have an experience that say fathers as being merciful and comforting. And we're not getting into all the parenting stuff right now, but I just think it's it's something for us to take note that got that Paul is going right there. Hey, we have a God and father who is bending towards you as his vulnerable child in a scary world that is full of scary and painful afflictions. And then he follows up with that with comfort and kind of I in the session notes, comfort refers to strengthening. It's helping someone as you're coming alongside them.

And this is a word too that Jesus uses to describe the Holy Spirit as a wonderful counselor as the comforter. But again, in my study of this, what was illuminating for me is that that this word, parakaleo, is also referred to strengthening. And that's what comfort does. It strengthens us. It gives muscles to our faith, which we need as we face the trials of this world, the scary painful situations of this world, which tempt us to go to, as you said, those creaturely comforts or to displace Jesus with one of his gifts, even a good gift.

Like, were talking about marriage and family, even to replace Jesus for a an experience of comfort that feels more tangible. And yet Paul is saying, and we help bring this to our counselees, is we're not going to shame them for those things, but we want to help lift their eyes to the true source of comfort and help them make some connections to, let's say they're in a habitual sin pattern, there's an addiction going on, help them make some connections of what is this giving to you? And specifically, how is this comforting your broken heart, your sinful heart? How is it soothing something there? And which is then gonna help us to make a launch pad more into the comfort of the Lord.

Yeah. That's really good. That is really good. And with that comfort, mercy, and to your point, first, second, maybe third session getting into this. Because depending on the consulee, this might even though this is this submission is maybe geared towards one session, but where it's applied and what session, and this could turn out into a couple of sessions.

So depending on that point and where the consulee is and the nature of their discomfort and need for comfort and everything that we are just talking about, how would you Ellen, how would you in the sort of after all of that establishing that in session, after session, getting into the after session and helping them engage in God's word and seeking the Lord as their comfort. In the after session assignment, you give four four things with some questions and some scripture. For the sake of this episode, what things from the after session assignment would you focus on primarily?

We've gotten to really talk through that passage or even just approach it. You're not gonna dive all the riches of that passage from two Throneedees one in one session. But I would probably encourage them and give them that assignment of to read it on their own, to read it reflectively, not just reading the ink on the page, but to even pray it back to God and ask the Lord or tell the Lord where for the counsellee of how do you ask the Lord to help you in understanding that God is your heavenly father who's full of comfort and mercy for you. Go back to those definitions in this session of what comfort and mercy are and invite them prayerfully or if they're not even ready to talk to God about it, to journal out what questions do you have for God. Even complaints.

The Psalms teach us to pour out our complaints. So what complaints do you have to God about the experiences that you've had perhaps previous that where you weren't comforted when you really needed comfort, where you weren't shown mercy, but maybe were shown condemnation. So I don't want to bring them into the passage and start helping them to pray it and to think through it and apply it personally themselves. But then I'd also want to be helping them to, as we just mentioned, Mike, is to start seeking to make some connections between the issue or the issues at hand, whether if it's a just a traumatic pain from the past or the sin struggles that they're having presently or a combination of both is to help to urge them to be thinking through how are they seeking comfort right now to soothe their heart in light of these other things going on. Because that's gonna be those are gonna be those breakthrough moments of recognizing, wow, this pornography binge, this secret same sex romantic relationship, this online gambling addiction, there's something about that is is an escape.

It does feel comforting because I'm not feeling what I'm feeling when I'm focused on these other things. I want them to start making those connections. So I'd be giving them assignments along those lines and then welcoming them back to our next session to to process it and to keep diving deeper into other passages. There's a few in the after assignment, after session assignment notes in the book about having them make these connections to other passages in God's word that are going to illuminate God's comfort for us through the presence of Christ, through our union with Christ. And then the final thing I would say is we because we don't want to miss this.

We talked about not wanting to miss broken hearts, but there is most likely a process of confessing sin, confessing the elevation of a creaturely comfort or the elevation of something over Christ. And the Lord is calling us to confess that out and to cry out for mercy and comfort, to turn away from it, for strength, to turn away from it. And all these would be things that we would just keep processing in our one on one times as they've done some of that on your own work.

Yeah. That's really good, Alan. Thank you. And I appreciate the way that you structured that and how you focused on comfort in asking meaningful questions as well as coming back to how they understand things, getting definitions. So I really appreciate that.

And for those of you listening counselors, would highly encourage you to pick up counseling through God's attributes. ABC Reza put this in the show notes. But what's beautiful about these particular episodes is like after you listen to it, this is something that a counselor literally could apply right before a session if they hear it. Even though they don't have the book in hand, but they can listen to these episodes and get a thought process for that would actually help them prepare as they think through their particular cases and the the individuals that they're trying to care for. Alan, thank you so much for your contribution in this book and thank you for joining us on Speak the Truth.

Any last encouragement that you would give to our counselors or counselors in training going through level one level two certification?

Yes, I love being a part of this, Mike. So thanks for the invite. I think I'll go back to something I said towards the beginning of the time. My encouragement for other counselors or in training is take to heart what Paul's saying here is the comfort that we receive. It's from the Lord in our own pain and sin struggles.

It's not meant to be hoarded. It's meant to be given out and given out to our counselors. And so that's instructive to us for lots of reasons. But I'll just close-up with two. One is how are you counselor facing your own pain and receiving the comfort of Christ.

These aren't just counseling topics, they're discipleship topics for us. And then ask, are there areas, are there aspects of your story where God is inviting you to share that story with your counsel leads in light of the comfort you've received to help them and even to help them, your counsel leads, see that you're in this process too of receiving the Lord's comfort and being strengthened with his mercy and compassion.

Yeah, that's really good. Thank you so much. We'll see you guys next time.