Kevin: Hello and welcome back to Subspace Radio.
It's me, Kevin,
Rob: and me Rob,
Kevin: and we are back after a long trip through the
wormhole from, uh, what was it?
Star Trek Discovery Season 5?
Is that the last time
Rob: It was Star Trek Discovery, the end of that entire show, so we had a bit
of a break waiting patiently for Lower Decks to return for its fifth season.
Kevin: Yeah, and we're back with a, a, a double header.
They started us off as, as Star Trek seems to do these days,
with two episodes and one night.
So we're going to, we're going to give them the same treatment
here on Subspace Radio.
We're going to be talking about Lower Decks season five,
episode one, Dos Cerritos, and episode two, Shades of Green.
Rob: Damn right!
Kevin: How's it feel to be back on the Cerritos, Rob?
Rob: It feels good!
It feels good to be back on the Cerritos.
It was a little bit of a uh, re adjusting for me to get back into
it because we have been doing um, Prodigy and uh, and Discovery.
Whereas, yeah, so that two very different styles of show but with Discovery
as well, it has a very self serious,
Kevin: Yeah, sure is, it's a big contrast.
Rob: Yeah, and there's that fun element to Prodigy, but it does
have a serious, uh, story as well, dealing with the time travel elements.
So to return to the, uh, flippant nature, in some ways,
Kevin: Even for Lower Decks, this started light and fluffy for me, because
we had gotten into some lore and some heavy character arcs at the end of
Season 4, and so this felt, to me, surprisingly light, in a pleasing way.
Rob: Yeah, last season very much so, right off the bat got us straight into, like,
uh, that broad sweeping story arc as well.
But yeah, with this it was just, you know, two very much self contained
episodes with a little bit of, uh, overlapping of, um, Tendi's story,
definitely, and, um, and maybe some ramifications of what happened in episode
one carrying on over to episode two.
Kevin: Yes.
If only in the form of stubble on, uh, Boimler's face, it seems like that
might be the runner for the season.
Rob: Looks like it might be, uh, the slow, slow development
of, uh, Boimler's facial hair.
Kevin: Uh, yeah, let's, uh, let's jump into these.
The, the, the topic we, we picked out that we're going to be talking about
in the second half of this show is, uh, meeting yourself, which the crew of the
Cerritos did in our first episode here, and we'll talk about a few other examples
in Star Trek history of characters more or less literally meeting themselves.
Rob: And we had to be a bit tricky as well because we've already done
stories dealing with the prominent, uh, Uh, alternate universe in Star
Trek, which is the mirror universe.
We've already looked at that.
So this is other variations of, uh, you know, the characters that we see
that is not mirror verse version.
Kevin: Absolutely.
So, in Dos Cerritos, we've got kind of an AB structure here.
The Cerritos gets sucked into a rift and meets an alternate Cerritos, or a
fake Cerritos, or a bad Cerritos, if you will, and generally just don't get along
with their slightly different selves.
And meanwhile, Tendi's on Orion, uh, working to fit into that pirate culture
as she earns her way back to freedom so that she can return to Starfleet.
Rob: And her moral stance now as a Starfleet officer and how that,
uh, clashes with the Orions', uh, approach to, uh, living life and
pillaging as much as they can.
So the pirate, the pirate life of the Orions, uh, does clash quite severely
with the, uh, the upstanding moral character of a Federation member.
Kevin: I feel like Lower Decks has completely dominated the
unexpected reversal of attitudes.
But when it's revealed that the reason these pirates are being so
piratey around Tendi is that they believe Tendi Earned her freedom to
go and live out her non pirate dreams by being a really great pirate.
And so they're like, we have to be as nasty and violent as we
can in order to earn our freedom.
And Tendi's like, no, no, no, we can, we can do it another way.
And so she seems to have recruited a merry band of, of gentle pirates
by the end of this first episode.
Rob: And Tendi having to go back and sort of like, you know, heal
the damage that has been done in the more violent ways of her cohort.
Kevin: What did you make of the alternate universe Cerritos here?
Rob: Yeah, it didn't really push anything too far in the
way of, of alternate characters.
It made it, it was, it was quite a, not safe, but a quite a, uh, a standard.
They're pretty much exactly the same.
And the main focus of course was, Oh, who would have thought Mariner's
having second thoughts about taking a step forward within her life.
Kevin: Once again.
Rob: More fool us.
More fool us.
We keep on going.
Well, that's it.
Mariners never gonna have any self doubt about this stuff, you know,
it's the same thing with sort of like, um, uh, Discovery, where we go, Oh,
you know, maybe Michael Burnham won't talk about themselves all the time
and make it all about themselves.
But, I did like the particular thing that none of the alternate versions get along.
The only two who do get along are the Boimlers.
Kevin: Yes.
This is the Cerritos.
If everyone is just a little too much themselves, like if they, they, they
indulge in their worst instincts.
And I think that's like, it's no more literal than in Rutherford's case
where he literally turns himself into a robot to not feel the departure
of his friend Tendi, uh, which I, I am still going to call, there, there
will be, there will be a romantic reunion by the end of this series.
Surely that is the last shoe to drop here in season five of Lower Decks
Rob: Yeah, they're, they're leaning, they were leaning definitely hard,
hardcore into that way, you know, friends don't miss friends that much
that they, you know, that they're not showering, and their sweat marks are
seen on their uniforms, and their facial hair is growing out, and so, um, yes.
Methinks he protests a bit too much.
Kevin: Yes.
But, uh, even, even seeing Ransom with a mullet and Billups with a cape and just
like those slightly too much themselves, uh, versions, like that seemed to be
the, the alternate universe that we went into here is everyone's just a little
too indulgent of their worst impulses.
All
Rob: And they couldn't go, they couldn't do it like that.
I'm not sure if they've been neutered a little bit.
Gone are the days of like, seriously maiming and disfiguring characters, then
having them healed by the next episode.
Or, you know, dying and coming back without any explanation.
Um, to the point where, you know, there's this, you know, the white elephant
in the room is, where's the captain?
And we're all going, ah, and they just go, no, she was just sent
off to, you know, Starbase 80.
Kevin: 80.
Yeah.
Rob: So they're going, come on, Lower Decks did always have that bite in
there, with its irreverence as well, but
Kevin: Yeah, you were expecting them to reveal that they had
mutinied against her or something
Rob: Yeah, or that she was, yeah, she'd been killed off or something like
that, and they're going, you're in an alternate universe, do whatever you want.
Kevin: I feel like that must be a seed planted for the inevitable
bookend return of this alternate Cerritos at the end of the season.
Rob: Alright, so you believe this is the, this is the arc that I
Kevin: Yeah, I don't think we've seen the last of them.
I feel like the fact that, that Boimler stole that PADD, the copy of Fleet
Magazine that tells the life story of the slightly better than Boimler Boimler.
Rob: He does have a beautiful beard.
Kevin: Yeah, and the advice he has started taking from the, the biography of a
successful officer that he's been reading.
Uh, so I feel like that has to come back somehow and the fact that, uh,
that, that unseen captain was mentioned and clearly given, given a, you know,
jeopardy that wasn't dealt with.
I think that has to come back.
Maybe it starts with, uh, Captain Freeman coming through the wormhole
there, uh, and, uh, and searching for our, our prime universe crew.
So we'll see.
Maybe, I don't know if I've called it, but yeah, it felt like the start of
something, not the end of something.
That first episode to me.
Rob: Yes, it definitely seemed like they were starting the ground running.
It didn't seem like they hit the, hit the season with, you
know, uh, all guns ablazing.
It was definitely a let's ease ourselves into it, let's, um, start the momentum
as opposed to hitting it with the momentum already, uh, already going.
Kevin: Yeah.
Speaking of the start of something, we skipped right over the opening
credits where they have gone completely overboard in that battle scene.
And, uh, rather than just add one scary big thing, by my count they added the
Hand of Apollo from Star Trek the Original Series, giving the Borg cube a hug there.
Rob: I did re I, that was the one I saw and that distracted me, so
I've missed some of the others.
Kevin: Then there was the Tholian web.
The Tholians came in and started doing lines over top.
And then in the background, V'ger from Star Trek The Motion Picture,
like the cloud of V'ger comes in.
And the last sound you hear is, is the like electronic noise of V'ger.
Um, I don't know if I missed one or two others in there, but those
were the three that stood out to
Rob: I was distracted by the space probe from Star Trek 4 as always.
Kevin: As always, yeah.
Rob: my ear.
Kevin: But yeah, we'll see.
How about, uh, you know, Tendi's, um, Tendi's hijinks in this?
Rob: Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see how much legs this has and
because it's, it's a case of the inevitable return of Tendi to Starfleet.
It depends on how
Kevin: Well, it went quickly.
Like, I don't think we need to beat about the bush.
We're about to talk about the second episode.
And to me, that was the resolution.
And, uh,
Rob: I was being coy, Kevin.
I was being coy, but they were doing it this episode, so I forgot.
I had
Kevin: Yeah, yeah.
Well, we were, we were watching it and, uh, our response was,
oh, that was quick, but I guess, you know, it was satisfying too.
Rob: Yeah, part of me was thinking it was maybe going to be the first episode.
I went, well, that's a bit quick.
Um, but there was some important stuff done in episode two to make
that resolution, um, of her going back to Starfleet more substantial.
So I think two episodes was a good way to do it.
I think the second episode had a lot more for her to do.
I definitely enjoyed that.
Connection with her sister, with her family, her family's position
within the Orion organization, her bringing that Starfleet mentality
into the Orion culture and how it doesn't, it doesn't sync at all.
It clashes far too much for her to, you know, be able to survive really,
and for her family to survive.
So it was very, um, that was for me very telling.
Kevin: Yeah, it set up the war with the blue Orions in, at
the end here of this episode.
It's pronounced Orions!
Uh, from, uh, the Animated Series, as we have said before,
um, great to see them back.
Um, and, uh, yeah, my, my, my partner Jess said, they seem like cartoon
villains from a 1960s cartoon.
And I said, funny, you should
Rob: off.
Just move into the 70s and
Kevin: That's right Yeah, exactly.
Uh, but yeah, they were real funny.
They're kind of the, the Pakleds of this season, I feel like.
Rob: Very much so.
Very much so.
And how easily, by the end, they just follow exactly
what, you know, the Orion say.
Okay, they're trying to be so butch and so aggressive and so
angry and so, you know, cunning.
And by the end, no, they're just pussycats.
Kevin: Yeah.
So moving into Shades of Green, this is, uh, where Tendi gets suspicious
when D'Erika, uh, her sister, is showing symptoms of fatigue and
raids her, her personal log and finds out she is hiding a pregnancy.
The, uh, she and her sister need to work together on a sailship race through
a nebula against the blue Orions, uh,
Rob: A bearded and fully haired Sisko would be very proud.
Kevin: Yeah, I know, it was, it was a strange, like, let's pluck that thing
from Bajor, Bajoran culture in Deep Space Nine and just use it here in the Orions.
I guess more than one species can have sailships.
They didn't.
They don't look exactly like the Deep Space Nine ones,
but they look pretty close.
Rob: Yeah, and they're going through a asteroid field, so there's a
little bit of Star Wars Attack of the Clones in there as well,
Kevin: We've had a few races through asteroid fields in Star Trek lately,
so I feel like they needed some element to mix it up from what
we've seen recently in Prodigy.
So I guess the sail ship, uh, was, the element was to do that as well.
Rob: I did like the mutiny with kindness, that
Kevin: Yes, the cutany!
Ha
Rob: very cute, that was, that was
Kevin: ha ha!
Tendi, yeah, Tendi was really annoying me.
Like she was, I mean, she was clearly out of line and doing the wrong thing.
Uh, and, and I guess you could understand why, but until it got to cuteny and
it won me over, um, she was, she was getting on my nerves as much as
she was getting on D'Erika's nerves.
Rob: It was a very nice flip on the idea of going, everyone
knew that D'Erika was pregnant,
Kevin: I know.
So good.
I feel like every episode of Lower Decks is having that moment where people were
acting the way they were for the complete opposite reason to what you expect.
Rob: Yes.
Yeah, and that's a good thing.
You get so caught up in the big moments of Star Trek's TV shows, like with
Lower Decks, when they do those big, you know, continuity, connections
to the larger canon, but you forget it's a week to week comedy show as
well, and it's very much a comedy show based on interpersonal relationships.
So to strip that back and show the cleverness of it, that's what the, that's
how the show works, it's not just a, you know, as some Podcasts are reviewed
as a flippant version of Star Trek.
Whoever said that, oh my god, have they ever watched the show?
The character, the character interpersonal relationships really
work, and they're really clever.
Beautiful writing of doing that stuff that still keeps us on our toes and
going, yeah, that's smart understanding of the characters and how each
character knows each other as well.
Very clever.
Kevin: And a very classic, uh, configuration of Boimler and Mariner
on the, uh, planet that is celebrating the achievement of post scarcity
technology, so they can, they can replicate anything they want, so they'll,
let's burn all the money, which is, uh,
Rob: you don't
Kevin: you know, something that, it, it, it kind of is the, the literal inter,
like it's the natural, uh, result of what Star Trek lore asks us to accept,
but it is a result that could only really work in animation, and, and
fun, fun to see it played out here.
Rob: Now I'm still trying to understand how the trick worked in the, I might have
been distracted with other things, so that the crew poisoning themselves and then
Kevin: Yeah, it's kind of bizarre.
I had to watch it twice myself.
So I, I gather what we what we were meant to accept is that the, the
ensigns that Boimler trained were so well trained that they figured out that
there's this bug on the planet that can make you fake your death, basically.
And when they were captured, they happened to still have this sample on
them from their, their research, I guess.
And so they decided as a means of escape, they would fake their deaths
and the robots would have to take them out of their cell or something.
But it didn't exactly play out that way.
Instead, uh, Boimler and Mariner were, were put in the
same cage and, uh, you know.
Rob: It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a very Shakespearean potion type of get
out jail free kind of going, oh yeah, it, you know, it fakes death, you know,
Kevin: Oh, it was kind of horrific, the green foam
Rob: coming out.
And like their skin turned like this green, sort of like zombie
esque color, um, and then, like that, snap, they're out of it.
Um, I did like the, the guards, who were not guards, they're robots who are meant
to be gardeners or servants and stuff.
They don't know how to deal
Kevin: Oh no, I have not watered my prisoners.
Yeah, that was That whole, that whole sequence just felt, like, it needed one
more pass of sense making for it to work.
There were, there were definitely funny elements in there, but it just kind
of skated by in the logic department.
Rob: Yeah, I'm trying to make sense of why is Boimler going through this.
He wants to be as good as his other version.
Does he not?
Yeah.
So, um, it seemed to be putting in a drama for the sake of it.
Kevin: My favorite stuff was every time, both times Boimler, uh, talked to Ransom
using Mariner's communicator, and he was like, Have you lost your communicator?
Do you need me to send one down?
Again, just a funny thing that can happen in Star Trek that we've never seen
happen before because it's absurd, but we get to do it in the comedy series.
Rob: And again, um, one of the strongest additions to any Star Trek
show coming in halfway through, uh, T'Lyn is still knocking it out of, uh,
the park, our, our Vulcan addition is a gre is a great, uh, her scenes with
herself in the alternate version were
Kevin: Yes.
Remarkable.
Fascinating.
Rob: say this, um,
Kevin: trash talking with me so openly because you believe
me to be from your universe?
Rob: And of course her attempts at getting Rutherford out of his funk by
being far too efficient and putting together the shuttle in record time.
Kevin: Yeah.
So sweet.
Nice little C story there.
Rob: Yeah, an additional C story added in.
And then of course,
Kevin: The sight gag of her appearing in the door that's opening and closing
while Rutherford's doing maintenance.
So good.
And then repeated with Tendi at the end of the episode.
Rob: I definitely, I'd like the wrapping up at the end so that all
of Tendi's family lost their money because of this bet because of
Starfleet's, uh, influence on Tendi.
And then you didn't see it coming, or?
Neither did I.
And then of course they're giving up all their money so the Orions take it.
Great.
That was a nice little flip.
Kevin: Normality is restored.
Rob: Ready to carry on with the rest of the season.
But yeah, I think I preferred this episode over, uh, the first one.
Kevin: Oh yeah.
Good.
Already, just two episodes in, I am already sad that this is ending.
Like this, I'm, I've got that feeling like, oh no, there's only
eight episodes left of Lower Decks.
Rob: It seems weird, yeah, especially because the way that we've talked about
this many times before, it's a whole different ballgame now since Star Trek
was huge in the 90s where you could, you could do three separate shows going for
however many seasons, you know, seven seasons at 23, 24 episodes a season.
And now we're in a different streaming where that's unheard of.
We, you know, some shows barely get to 24, um, in total.
Um, and so even though the momentum is building up the way that streaming
platform works, unless you're bringing in new subscribers and new viewers,
no matter how successful your writing is going, the model just does not
suit, uh, for it to go longer.
To make it to five seasons is
Kevin: I've seen some hints dropped in the media that this fifth season,
though it will be the ending of the series, it will not be the ending
of the stories for these characters.
Uh, and I wouldn't be surprised if they, um, they embrace the model
that Futurama did for a while there of having kind of TV movies.
For the, them to come back every now and then, I feel like maybe
maybe the economics of 10 episodes a year are not working out as
the well runs dry on streaming.
But the the thing is, this is probably a pretty cheap show to make.
It's not something where you need all the actors in the same place.
So scheduling is not a problem.
It's not like you have to keep your actors on contract, uh, for a whole
year in order to keep making this show.
So maybe it's like once a year we'll do a story.
We'll get the band back together for two hours of Lower Decks
and keep the party going.
That's what I would hope for.
Rob: Definitely.
Or there could be a way of, especially with recording stuff, they could do
like multiple stories in one or two hits, and that could be then released
once a year or something like that.
So there's definitely a way of doing it.
That's how a lot of like Big Finish, which is a Doctor Who audio adventure,
they record, you know, whole box sets of five to six different stories years
in advance and then release them, you know, as, as, as compilations
over, over the course of five years.
It's, yeah, so it's a model of how you shift according to, you know,
the way that people consume nowadays.
Kevin: All right.
Well, let's talk about characters meeting themselves in Star Trek.
Rob: Yes, let's, let's begin, shall we?
Do you have one from the original series?
Kevin: I do have one from the original series.
It wasn't on my list when we first discussed this concept, but it, it came
to mind in the intervening time, and so
Rob: In a dream, in a fever dream, did you
Kevin: Yeah, well, in a, in a cup of tea, in fact, uh, because on my mug here, you
can see, uh, The Enemy Within, James T.
Kirk versus James T.
Kirk.
Rob: it was standing there staring you right in the face
Kevin: That's right, this is one, one of my favorite mugs
that I drink from every day.
And this is, uh, season one, episode four of the original series, so
a real early one in the series.
Yeah, and, and I would, I would say at the time, it was considered one
of the stronger episodes of the show.
This was probably like, one of the ones they had in the bank, in
their like, original list of ideas that they pitched, that, that,
uh, they were really confident in.
Uh, in some very clear ways, does not age very well, this
episode, that we'll talk about.
But, in terms of people meeting themselves, um, It does have Captain Kirk
meeting Captain Kirk after a fashion.
Uh, this episode, are you familiar with it, Rob?
Rob: I am not.
I
Kevin: Well,
Rob: about it before?
Kevin: It has come up once or twice, yeah.
Um, in this episode there is a transporter accident at the
start that splits Kirk in two.
Kirk beams aboard, uh, and is kinda tired and goes to his quarters and
everyone leaves the transporter room and then Kirk beams aboard a second time.
And the second Kirk has his back to the camera and the camera zooms in and
William Shatner, lit from below, spins around with eyeshadow on his, uh, or
eyeliner on, and is evil Captain Kirk.
And Kirk has been split into his good and evil parts.
Uh, I, I use those, uh, scare quotes you like to use, Rob.
Rob: Love it.
Love the
Kevin: Because it's, it's not so clear cut.
It's kind of Captain Kirk's aggression, his confidence, his, uh, his
animalistic Uh, side is split apart from his intellect, his, uh, emotional
intelligence, his compassion, um, which was the first captain to beam aboard.
And throughout this episode, we get to see what these two halves of a person,
um, are able to do and not able to do.
And how, uh, you know, a man split in two is not able to function and
ultimately is at risk of dying.
The transporter accident is recognized pretty early and the rest of the
away team must stay below while they try and figure out how to repair the
transporter and the temperature drops.
And this is a, you know, an episode where Sulu is trapped on the
surface below and is phasering rocks with his team huddled around the
glowing rocks to try and stay warm.
And so that's the ticking clock is the, the landing party will freeze to death if
they can't repair the transporter in time.
But meanwhile, Captain Kirk is second guessing himself, or good
Kirk is second guessing himself and starting to be unable to, to make
decisions without his confidence.
And a lot is made of, will you relinquish command?
No, I must not relinquish command.
And I can't let the crew see me this way because if they see me uncertain,
then they'll lose their faith in me.
And, and then I lose my command.
And you know, in modern Star Trek, it would be like you, you are clearly
having a day, you are incapacitated, hand over command to your first officer.
But that is like, not an option here in early Star Trek.
In, in early Star Trek, it's kind of the, I guess the submarine commander
model of like, if the captain goes down with the ship, and there is no second
in command, there is no handing over command because you're incapacitated.
They, they, they, do the toxic masculinity thing of pretending everything is fine.
Rob: Yep, there is no, there is no PTSD.
There is, uh, you've got to man up and just, uh, and deal with it.
And, you know, and if you have any type of, you know, effects in a negative
capacity, then that is deadly and that takes away any power you have.
Kevin: And meanwhile, evil Kirk has the run of the ship and
people don't realize at first that he's not the real Captain Kirk.
They don't realize at first that there are two Captain Kirks until, and
this is where things start to go pear shaped, um, evil Captain Kirk attempts
to rape Yeoman Rand in her quarters.
Rob: Right.
Kevin: Yes, uh, he, uh, it is an ugly scene.
Like, it It is hard to watch today.
I I can only imagine it was hard to watch at the time as well.
And I'm, I'm surprised it, it made it to air early in this unproven show's life.
I can only imagine that just the show was not, didn't have
that many eyeballs on it yet.
And, uh, and it made it through.
But, you know, network censors were a thing at the time, so, there's, you know,
it's a forced kiss, and a, and a, um, stop fighting me, and a physical altercation
where she's thrown to the floor and pinned down, and it's, it's real gross, uh, and
she, she scratches his face, which becomes like the identifier for the evil Captain
Kirk through the rest of the episode.
And she, she gets away.
Uh, and it takes a little while for the rest of the crew to kind of, or, or for
Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, the people who are in the know here, to kind of figure out
what's going on, that they're dealing with a, an evil duplicate of their captain.
Um, and, uh, the, the, next terrible beat is when, uh, uh, Yeoman
Rand reports what happens to her.
Um, she is called into sickbay, uh, to face Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, uh,
who question her on her experience.
So as far as she knows, um, Kirk has assaulted her in her quarters, and
leading the, the inquiry is Captain Kirk.
Rob: Oh my gosh.
Right.
Kevin: There is some, uh, there is some off screen, um, oral history about this
episode where in that scene where she had to seem so, like, shattered and
devastated and traumatized that in order to get there as an actor, um, she was,
she was like, working to get there, and so William Shatner, in order to
help her, struck her across the face, uh, between takes, so that she could
genuinely cry in the moment, for which, uh, she, she reportedly was grateful.
Um, so yeah, really kind of weird, you know, blending of the on screen
and off screen stories here, that, that really, you know, it, it's,
it's not a pleasant story to tell.
Rob: Ah, the 1960s, ugh.
Kevin: Yeah.
Um, and then capping it all off, the, uh, the button of this episode, when,
when Kirk is restored into one and everything is back to normal, Yeoman
Rand kind of, you know, takes her station on the, the bridge, and she,
she goes to Captain Kirk, and she finds, she's like, she's a little embarrassed
because she understands now that it wasn't her captain that did this to her.
So she tries to apologize to Captain Kirk, and he said, like, he, he
waves it away and says thank you, like, before she can say anything.
And then she walks over to Spock, and Spock goes, I wrote it down here.
Spock says to her, with a knowing wink, the, uh, imposter had some interesting
qualities, wouldn't you say, Yeoman?
Kind of implying that, that she, she enjoyed the, uh, the sexual attention.
Eeeh, that's the, that is the literally the comic beat at the end of this episode.
So it's hard to recommend.
But the thing is, everything else about this episode is quite
well executed and interesting.
The, the idea, I feel like, that, that, uh, you know, a person, and let's go
there, a man split in two, would have these attributes that are, you know, that
we all carry around inside ourselves, and that we, we override our worst
instincts, we have learned to grow beyond them as people, but that in a
situation, in a sci fi situation like that, that they would be part of even
our hero, Captain Kirk, is interesting.
And it is explored in, I feel like, a, a truthful, um, deep way here, uh, as far
as the 1960s television could manage.
So, that stuff is, is good, and I, I kind of want to say this is a good episode of
Star Trek for those reasons, but, that, that toxic masculinity stuff, and, and
the culture around, around rape and how it was seen at the time is, is pretty gross.
Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's very much like, we've talked about it before, how the vision of the future but
from a modern point of view, and there's, they're still limited by what social mores
and cultural structures are set up within their socio economical, relationship wise,
um, you know, all that type of stuff.
They can only expand within that limited knowledge.
They need to learn by going forward.
That that could then expand.
It's, it's, yeah, it's a futuristic version from a, it's
a time capsule of that time.
It says more about that time than it does.
And sometimes it breaks through, like you said, there are those moments that
make it timeless and why it has lasted.
And, um, and, and, and you can see that with all the series moments
within, uh, Next Generation, there are some episodes that, you know,
people are wholly embarrassed by, even by cast members who have done it.
Deep Space Nine, we've discussed that as well, um, some bold,
controversial episodes, uh, quite, uh,
Kevin: They don't quite get there in
Rob: Yeah, and they're hamstrung by all the sci fi babble that they wrap
up to give it a justification within a heteronormative, um, you know, patriarchy.
Kevin: Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, I mean, despite all its faults, I'd say this is a great
episode for Grace Lee Whitney.
The late, the late great, uh, Yeoman Rand, uh, this and Miri that we talked
about, uh, not too long ago are, are I think her two best episodes.
And I would say arguably she does the most acting and, and, uh, uh, is, as you
know, at the peak of her powers as a, as an actor in this episode, which is,
you know, so much more the shame for, for how she is treated as a character.
Rob: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Very much a case of, we've seen it happen so, know, far too many times.
Kevin: What's your, uh, first meeting of the self?
Rob: Well, uh, thank you to your recommendation.
I watched an episode that, uh, I'd seen the sequel of, but I hadn't seen the
original and so I watched the original and then re watched the sequel and so my, my
opinion on the sequel episode has changed because of my watching of the first.
So, um, I was recommended to watch Second Chances, which is a,
a, a season 6 episode 24, right?
Kevin: Right at the end.
Yeah.
Just before, just before like the, the cliffhanger of the season.
Rob: So this is, um, another transporter incident that happened eight years ago.
So before, before, um, Riker went to the Enterprise when he
was, um, on board another ship.
Um,
Kevin: I think it's
Rob: The Potemkin, I believe.
Yep.
And there was, uh, sort of like a, a protective dome around this planet.
Sort of like, you know, energy field and so transporting in and out.
There's only time windows they can do it.
Um, they go back to that same planet and they find there someone who's been
abandoned for eight years and living there and it's a duplicate of William Riker.
In every way shape or form it is him and they find out it's that pesky transporter.
So they were able, they boosted a signal to do two transporter beams for Riker.
One got him out and the other one sorta like ricochet off the barrier and send
him back and copied him perfectly.
Kevin: A nice little visual story telling Okudagram in that conference room scene
where they explain what happened and the little waves bouncing off the atmosphere
to the little icon of a William Riker.
Rob: It it, it, was the perfect representation of a whiteboard
or a blackboard that we have seen so many times when complicated
explanations of scientific things.
Bring out the whiteboard, bring out the blackboard.
Um, so yes, what does this mean for William Riker?
What does it mean for William Riker?
Um, what does it mean for, uh, everyone on the ship?
Uh, because there's still things that need to be sorted out, information needs to
be downloaded, um, and they need to work together to, to, to get this information.
Um, but William Riker still has feelings for Troi, um, despite the fact that, you
know, Will, Will and Troi have got used to the fact that they're just friends.
The opportunity has come and gone, but this Will is a Will who's been thinking
about it non stop for eight years.
Um, again, we have a moment where we have the two female
characters talking about a man.
Um, uh, yeah, um, uh.
And we also open the scene with Will Riker playing his trombone.
Mm, mm, mm.
Kevin: Yeah, that was good.
I like that.
I mean, you hear, you hear the stories that, like, that was something that
Jonathan Frakes, you know, said, Hey, I know how to play the trombone.
You want to use it?
And they used it no more than they did here.
Rob: And it's a cute moment, you know, how Troi knows so much
about Will, that there's that one song that he always struggles.
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe Any others?
Any other suggestions?
Um, so to watch that was great to see, I mean, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, Jonathan
Frakes does an incredible job here playing both versions of the character.
Kevin: Yeah, I thought really subtle.
Um, Jonathan Frakes not known for big noting himself as an actor.
Whenever he talks about his acting, he's like, whoo, you know,
um, I was in over my head every single moment of that seven years.
And, uh, I feel lucky to have been asked.
And every, every time they asked me back, I feel lucky to be asked back.
But yeah, he, he did some subtle stuff.
Like every time, every time I was finding Thomas Riker a little annoying and I
was like, hang on, is that, um, is that something about Will Riker I don't like?
The very next scene there'd be Will Riker and the contrast would be so apparent.
I'd be like, oh no, that's a character choice.
It's so good.
Rob: Yeah, and it just shows the great work, um, him and
Marina Sirtis have together.
Their connection is incredible doing both versions of it.
Kevin: Ah, once again I am going to call for the Riker Troi box set.
Their relationship is played out in little episodes like this scattered through the
whole series, and I think they amount to more than the sum of their parts.
Rob: No, it's great.
And, um, it's interesting.
So many of the other characters, periphery characters are like, we hardly
see any, uh, Picard in this episode.
He does, he does appear a bit
Kevin: I almost thought this was a Patrick Stewart directed episode
for how little we see him, but it was LeVar Burton who directed it.
Rob: And written by the great Ronald D.
Moore.
Kevin: Wow, very good.
Rob: Love our Ronald D.
Moore.
Kevin: Much like, uh, The Icarus Factor that we talked about recently where
Riker's dad comes to the ship, this is a Riker centric episode that, to me,
has a structure that is uniquely TNG.
The science fiction story is so in the background, is so beside the point.
It is basically a soap opera, this episode.
Uh, and you know, Jonathan Frakes, lots of experience appearing in soap operas.
And so he is in his comfort zone with this material.
Rob: It is a beautiful moment where the two Wills are talking about his dad
and he's there going, you know, well, I've, you know, dad's come on the ship
and we've, you know, been able to heal things a little bit and he goes, well,
you know, I'm still in that place where, you know, you were eight years ago.
Um, amazing stuff.
And then kind of a hopeful ending at the end of sort of like, you
know, maybe there's a chance.
Um, moving forward, you know, taking my middle name to be
Thomas, there's this sense of, acknowledgement, bittersweetness,
Kevin: Notice no goatee in this episode.
Rob: No goatee, no, no, no peeling off of the side hairs.
Kevin: was a Deep Space Nine invention.
I'll have you know, not all of Deep Space Nine's ideas were good.
Rob: Yeah, look, well that's a thing, that's a thing.
I'm there going, you know, I always hold Deep Space Nine to a higher standard than
any, any of the other Star Treks, but I'm there going, this is where, uh, TNG, uh,
you know, sets up something incredible, and Deep Space Nine kind of screws the
pooch, if you don't mind me saying.
Kevin: On the subject of meeting yourself, uh, I thought that this, this idea that
I think the science fiction scenario here allows us to explore uniquely.
This idea that eight years on, Will Riker knows that he made that choice to leave
Troi and not go and meet her as agreed,
Rob: Yes.
Kevin: and he, he has, he and she have reconciled themselves to that decision.
And then they can meet him effectively before that decision was made, and
that version of him is convinced he would not do the same thing, but
when push comes to shove, he does.
And so that, that idea that the decisions we make are often, when push comes
to shove, different than the ones we would have ourselves make, or think
ourselves able to make, is a really interesting character idea that I
really loved exploring in this episode.
Rob: Very much so.
It's a case of, you know, you don't really know what decision you'll make until
Kevin: Yeah, how many times do we say, I could never do that, or I would
never do that, but you never know
when the circumstances are, are just so.
Rob: And I was really quite, I literally sat upright.
I knew what was going to happen at the end because of, you know, the sequel episode.
But that that peril that they were put in with the, with the, the
bridge collapsing and the two of the, the two of them working together
and the look they gave each other.
That's, that, that was some exciting stuff.
That was beautifully written and put together.
Well done, Mr.
Burton.
Well done, Mr.
uh, D.
Moore.
And well done, Mr.
Riker and Mr.
Riker.
Well, Mr.
Frakes and Mr.
Frakes.
Yeah, that was a really, I'm there going, this is, this is, I did not expect this.
This is tense and really well done.
Kevin: Mmm!
Ah, I'm gonna take us to something a little less well done, which is Star Trek:
Nemesis, in which, uh, Captain Picard meets a clone of himself, uh, which we
are asked to believe young Tom Hardy is a, a, a, young and inexperienced, immature
mirror of the captain we knew and love.
Rob: Uh, yeah, so like, when, when press was coming out about Nemesis, there
was, the big thing was the big villain will be a clone of Picard, and we'll
go, Ooh, okay, this is gonna be good.
And then, no, no, no, he's a young clone.
He's a young hybrid, no, he's a young Romulan clone.
He's a young Romulan clone going to the, to the, uh, other twin
planet Remus where they are bat looking vampire y looking Romulan.
It's, what, it's a mess.
Kevin: It's a mess.
The, the story of this is a mess.
And, you know, all due respect to, uh, Brent Spiner, who I believe had a, a
big hand in the story structure here, but whew, boy, it's all over the place.
We are asked to believe that Shinzon, who is abandoned as a mining slave
on Remus, also fought and won several triumphant battles in the Dominion
War, and somehow came into possession of Data's prototype B4 and modified
it to entrap the Enterprise into, into, uh, giving up the secrets of
Federation communications protocols.
It's, oh, it is, it is such a long walk, this, this plot.
Rob: Yeah, directed by someone who didn't want to direct Star Trek at all.
They didn't want to give it to Frakes because of the underperforming
nature of Insurrection.
So Frakes is there and they're trying to tell this director how Star Trek is
and he hated working on it and hated
Kevin: What could this movie have been with Frakes at the helm?
Rob: Oh, just imagine, can you imagine just how, what a
beautiful send off it would be?
It would be, I, I believe in some ways it would, yeah, no, it would
be, it would be up to like Star Trek 6 Undiscovered Country level of, you
know, knowing, you gotta, you gotta know this shit, you gotta know this stuff.
They did, he just was, the director came in and did it as just another gig and
didn't care about the ramifications of it, hence chase scenes are thrown in for no
reason to just up the excitement and take away from the gravity of the whole story.
Kevin: Yeah, I feel like the, for me, the start of this movie still works.
The, the Romulan Senate getting killed off, um, Riker and Troi's wedding, um,
Or their first of two wedding ceremonies.
Very, very fan service y that scene, but it was still working
for me up until that point.
And the moment it goes off the cliff is like they detect the signal, the
prositronic signal that sends them to that planet to go on the scavenger
hunt for, uh, B4's body parts.
When they're driving the Argo around on this pre warp civilization, uh,
where they engage in firefights with no thought to the Prime Directive,
that's when it like plunges off the cliff for me and never really recovers.
Rob: And then we get into, you know, psychological violation.
Kevin: Yeah, I was just gonna say, some more, some more rape
fantasy, uh, if you please.
Rob: Yeah, just bring, uh, Maria Sirtis in.
Um, let's just, that's what she's there to service.
Great.
This is, uh, this is in the early noughties.
You know, we thought we'd moved on from, you
Kevin: can't believe we weren't past that.
It feels to me like they wanted to cut it out once they had seen what they
had shot, but it was so intertwined in the plot that they couldn't cut
it out without major reshoots that I guess they had run out of money for.
Rob: Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.
Kevin: Whew, but yeah, um, and, like, we're here to talk
about this meeting yourself.
I guess the scenes where Jean Luc Picard and Shinzon come face to
face are at least interesting.
When, when Shinzon seems to profess genuine curiosity about this man and
his family life and how he got to where he is, like, that stuff is compelling.
But then the very next scene he's like, Oh, let's, uh, let's, uh,
invade Troi's, uh, Troi's dreams.
And, uh, and his, his viceroy is telling him there's no more time for games.
And it's kind of revealed that,
I mean, the, my most charitable viewing of this is that Shinzon honestly was
interested in, in Jean Luc Picard and captivated by the idea that he could
become as, as good a man as Picard had been, um, and attempted to make
that happen, but, but was so far down the river of wrongful deeds that he
was irretrievable from the start.
So, um, so there is a almost tragic reading of this, but I
don't think they pull it off.
Like, I think that's what they were going for, but they don't pull it off.
Rob: No, there was not enough care and time put into it
and yeah, they've diluted it.
There's a classic moment in, um, Doctor Who, in season 22 where they, um, were
about to be cancelled and they had a year and a half off and they came
back with The Trial of a Time Lord.
And the big overarching thing, sorry spoilers, is the main villain in it,
the Doctor is put on trial and there's the Valeyard, who's like the prosecutor
trying to put, getting the Doctor, um, uh, sentenced to death, really.
Um, and you find out at the end of this overarching story that the Valeyard is
actually a future incarnation of the Doctor, who's gone evil and has come
back to, you know, to, to kill his past self, which is a great concept.
But they diluted it because they then backed away from it and went, Oh, no,
we can't actually have a future self of the Doctor become evil, because then
that's locked into, you know, canon.
So they go, well, he's a con he's a amalgamation of the evil elements of the
Doctor from in in between regenerations.
Kevin: It's The Enemy Within all
Rob: It's it's The Enemy Within.
Uh, the script writing is the enemy within.
And so here again, it's that case of how fascinating would it have been
to have a clone of Picard, a pure Picard, so then you could have had
you know, Stewart up against Stewart.
Um, but diluting it with, oh, it's a younger version, and it's a Romulan,
and putting Tom Hardy in a fake nose to look more like, uh, Patrick
Stewart, and all these other elements dilutes away from, you know, you
know, what makes Picard who he is.
Is it,
Kevin: It's, it's such a trivial detail.
But I think it speaks to me of the care that was put into this movie that the
scene where Picard is looking back on his Academy album and pulls out a photo
of himself and he's completely bald.
It's bald Tom Hardy in a cadet's uniform.
And he says to, uh, he says to Crusher, You remember this kid?
And, and they, they, they go about pretending that Picard was bald in
his academy days, and we've seen him before at that age and was not.
Like, it is, it, it really does feel like so much money had fallen out of
the franchise at that point that a lot of the people who still cared had left.
Rob: Yep.
And it's always the way like even in even in the 80s when they were making
the movies and they were successful there was always number crunching when it
came to how much money was allocated to Star Trek um but especially here because
First Contact was such a big success and then they wanted that success matched
and when Insurrection didn't do that
Kevin: How quickly the fortunes turn, yeah.
One bad movie and you,
Rob: Within a couple of years you
Kevin: sent to movie jail, as Jonathan Frakes likes to
Rob: Jonathan Frakes used to say, you know, he was the king of the world.
He was offered, you know, so many opportunities in film and stuff like
that after, after First Contact.
And as soon as Insurrection came, we went, Oh, he's back to being a TV director.
Kevin: And the thing is, this movie does feel cheap in some of the same
ways that Insurrection felt cheap.
It feels, in parts, it feels kind of like an episode of the week, uh,
that, that like, you could have done this on a TV budget and it wouldn't
have looked much different at times.
But, It was kind of a self fulfilling prophecy by that point of like, well,
if you can only earn TV money, we'll only give you TV dollars, and then
you'll only be able to earn TV money.
Rob: Yeah, it's very much a case of as soon as we hit the 2000s,
it goes from the heady heights of three seasons going simultaneously,
pretty much, um, to, and movies as well, to then the movies are ending.
All the shows are gone except for one and that kind of peters out when
it was trying something different.
I wouldn't say Enterprise was hitting its, its straps, but it was
definitely trying stuff that was more interesting than what came before.
Um, yeah, and this is just a, a mess of no money, no faith in the
people who have been a part of it for decades, uh, to, to bring it home.
Kevin: Yeah.
Um, I enjoy the soundtrack.
The score of this movie still gets me.
I do like that.
There's a lot of like, kind of driving Romulan strings that
really work for me in this.
Rob: this Jerry Goldsmith again?
Kevin: Yeah, it was Jerry Goldsmith.
Rob: Awesome.
Awesome.
Kevin: Yeah.
Finding some new colors to Star Trek musically once again.
Rob: A hugely underrated composer.
I know John Williams always gets, uh, the main focus, and rightly so.
But, yeah, Jerry Goldsmith is one of those composers who did some
incredible, diverse, uh, film scoring.
Even diverse within the same franchise.
Um, and, uh, yeah, he should, uh, definitely get a lot
more attention than he gets.
Kevin: Where this, yeah, that guy earns his paycheck so often in Star Trek
history, but probably no finer example of this movie where we might criticize it
for lacking gravitas, I feel at times the only gravitas it has comes from the score.
Rob: Mm hmm.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: So, well done, sir.
Rob: Well done, Mr.
Jerry Goldsmith, you are missed.
And, uh, what a wonderful, uh, composer you were.
Um, one thing I forgot to mention earlier from, uh, seeing we're talking so much
about Riker, and let's get to something, yeah, more positive than Nemesis.
Um, the alternate universe Boimler did the Riker step over the chair, um, to s
Kevin: that.
That's amazing.
Rob: And didn't even need to say Riker.
Um, that's, that's how confident and successful he
was in his alternate universe.
Kevin: Well, he's rocking the Riker beard.
That's what gives him that power.
Rob: Rockin the Riker be it, rockin the Riker, taking a
seat and doing it unironically.
Kevin: Yeah.
Very good.
Uh, did you have anywhere else you wanted to take us?
Rob: Um, yeah, just, uh, I'll talk quickly about, uh, the sequel, uh,
follow up to, uh, Second Chances.
Defiant, going, yeah, going back and watching it for, uh, for the,
for the longest time, that was my only interaction with Thomas Riker.
Kevin: Yeah, there's no Riker meeting Riker in this, but
still, uh, very interesting to see where that character went.
Rob: See where they went.
It's kind of disappointing.
It's quite sad that, how, how he sort of like, you know, turned into a Maquis.
It's, they seem to shoehorn him into the Maquis, the story they wanted to tell.
Kevin: Yeah, we're asked to believe he went off to that posting that we
saw at the end of Second Chances and started to express political opinions
that, uh, were, were suspiciously similar to the Maquis views on things.
Rob: Yes, but still quite Starfleet in the way of doing things.
He's not willing to go the full, uh, Maquis way.
And of course, there's big connections with him and Kira.
Kira, who has of course been a resistance fighter, known as
Kevin: Well, if you're gonna hire Jonathan Frakes, someone's gotta kiss him.
Rob: Wow, look, you know, there's been quite a lineup, but, um, you know,
I think, you know, Kira has a long history of relationships with bad boys.
Um, just had to get, you know, the long way around before she found her good man.
Um, uh, a good blob in a bucket.
Um.
Uh, but yes, it's a bit of a, it's a bit of a disappointing story after
the highs of, uh, Second Chances.
Um, and, uh, it's a shame to see what they did with, with Thomas
Riker, and I don't really know what's ha, has there been any further
developments with Thomas since then?
Kevin: Nope, as far as we know, he's still rotting in a Cardassian
prison for, in a life sentence.
Rob: And of course, it's always good to have, uh, Mark Alaimo there as Gul Dukat.
He's in a particularly, you know, excellent, uh, frame of mind here, him
Kevin: Yeah, one of the saner outings for, uh, for Gul Dukat in
Rob: This, this is his early cunning warrior phase
Kevin: Yeah, political intrigue.
I liked him playing both sides of saying, well, if that's the
story you're going with, I'm going to take this to my superiors and
this is what they're going to do.
So we probably need to come up with a better story before we leave this room.
Like, that,
Rob: Him with, him going up against the Obsidian Order and Sisko there within
this Cardassian type of environment, yeah, that, that stuff was really
clever and interesting, um, uh, so, yeah, just wanted to bring it up and
I was, uh, and I'm saying, I'm saying it for the first time, you're hearing
it right here first, Kevin, you know, Deep Space Nine kind of screwed it up.
Kevin: It's gotta happen now and then.
Rob: got to happen every once in a while.
Kevin: Season three, they still hadn't really figured out what they were yet.
Rob: Exactly.
Exactly.
Some highs, some lows.
Kevin: highs, some lows, yes.
They learned from what worked in Season 3 and flew from there, but they had
Rob: I'm still trying to figure out what the hell Thomas was doing with O'Brien.
He goes, you know what you did.
I'm going, I
Kevin: There's a lot of threads about that online, um, because people are
like, well, is he angry at him because he was a transporter chief and the
transporter messed up his whole life?
Uh, but no, uh, apparently when you go back to the script, it is clearer
than it was on screen that this was a tactic by Thomas Riker to avoid
a conversation with the one person aboard Deep Space Nine who knew him
well enough to maybe spot the imposter.
So he's like, Yeah, I'm not talking to you, and okay, it's, it'll be confusing
enough that I'll be able to get on board the Defiant before he, he, he
Rob: But is it a Wrath of Khan type of situation?
Didn't O'Brien leave before season six?
Kevin: Uh, ooh, good question.
Good question.
So, you're saying O'Brien would, would not have been there for the events of Second
Chances, and therefore might be less, I, I think still, you know, I think you're
right, and yet, still, like, O'Brien knew Riker well enough that he'd, like, strike
up a casual conversation that Thomas Riker would not be able to keep up the pretense.
Rob: And go, why have you got fake beard on the side of your face?
Kevin: Yeah, O'Brien would have smelled a rat, and so, uh, yeah,
he cut the conversation short.
Rob: Or at least spirit gum?
Kevin: what was intended.
Rob: Yeah, yeah, I kind of got that idea, but I was there going, clearly
you want to talk to O'Brien, so I wanted to make him feel uncomfortable.
Kevin: Yeah, I mean, I think they could have papered over it by just not having
them meet and it would have been much cleaner, but, uh, they wanted to make
Rob: comes in and he could have been the one to go at the last minute.
Wait a minute, that's not, but no, they just, they've already buggered
off and he's going, Oh, okay.
Oh, well, that's a shame.
Kevin: Yeah.
So there you go, um, yeah, Defiant.
I, I, I'm sure there are some further stories of Thomas Riker out there in
comics or novels to be found, if people want to go looking for them, but yeah,
Rob: in Lower Decks before?
Kevin: Oh.
I suspect it was mentioned as a gag, but uh, but that's probably it.
Yeah, it'd be nice to know that he got out of that prison somehow.
Like, that promise Kira makes, we'll get you out of there.
I think we, we know as the viewer that it's a hollow promise that she won't be
able to keep, but it's still pretty sad.
Rob: Yeah.
It's, it's very, it's, it's, it's a bummer.
It's a, you know, I know Deep Space Nine was the grim, you know, the grim uncle
of the, uh, of the Star Trek family, but I'm there going, Oh, so much hope.
So much, so much possibilities at the end of the Next Gen episode.
And then here you go.
Oh, calm down, everybody.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: Hmm.
Kevin: Oh, well, there you go.
We have seen ourselves in, in, uh, the annals of Star Trek.
Rob: Exactly.
Reflecting back on us.
And do we like what we see?
But it's very much a case of, you know, would you get on well with
yourself if you found, you know, a version of yourself, Kevin?
Would you
Kevin: Well, I, yeah, I don't know.
I think I, I think I buy, uh, Lower Decks episode one.
And, also, there's that scene in Second Chances where, uh, Riker leaves the
room and Data and Worf talk about, uh, could you get along with yourself?
And Worf goes, No, I'm very hard to get along with.
Rob: right.
Kevin: I think it would be a bit like that.
I think the last line of that scene is like, perhaps it is
seeing in your double something that you do not like in yourself.
And I think it would be a bit like that.
Rob: Yeah, it happens in Doctor Who all the time.
Every time there's a multi doctor story, they never get on well.
Fair enough.
If I met my, if I met a past version of myself, I would, I would shit myself
up the wall, that's for damned sure.
Slap myself around the face going, what the hell are you doing?
Calm the fuck down.