WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: en-GB 00:00:08.310 --> 00:00:12.540 I'm Travis Badder, and this is the Silver Core Podcast. 00:00:13.950 --> 00:00:18.600 Silver Core has been providing its members with the skills and knowledge necessary 00:00:18.605 --> 00:00:23.070 to be confident and proficient in the outdoors for over 20 years, and we make 00:00:23.070 --> 00:00:24.900 it easier for people to deepen their. 00:00:25.485 --> 00:00:26.805 To the natural world. 00:00:27.705 --> 00:00:32.925 If you enjoy the positive and educational content we provide, please let others 00:00:32.925 --> 00:00:37.725 know by sharing, commenting and following so that you can join in on 00:00:37.785 --> 00:00:39.615 everything that Silver Core stands for. 00:00:40.665 --> 00:00:43.605 If you'd like to learn more about becoming a member of the Silver 00:00:43.635 --> 00:00:49.144 Core Club and community, visit our website at silvecore.ca. 00:00:49.695 --> 00:00:52.364 All right, you guys are gonna make me work for it today. 00:00:53.175 --> 00:00:58.545 I've got a few guests on this Silver Core podcast, and I like to make sure I get a 00:00:58.545 --> 00:01:02.685 decent intro for everybody cuz I, I view it like somebody coming into your house. 00:01:02.745 --> 00:01:05.535 You don't ask somebody to come into your house and introduce themselves. 00:01:05.535 --> 00:01:08.355 You bring them into your house and you introduce 'em to your 00:01:08.355 --> 00:01:09.285 guests who're gonna be there. 00:01:09.285 --> 00:01:12.645 And that's exactly what I'm gonna attempt to get through with the three of you. 00:01:12.645 --> 00:01:16.695 I had to call back some of the accolades just to make this one flow. 00:01:17.355 --> 00:01:21.025 So today I'm joined by Linda Miller, a competitive shooter who has won 00:01:21.045 --> 00:01:25.755 medals at the Commonwealth Games Cuba, world Cup, Mexico World Cup, and was 00:01:25.755 --> 00:01:30.075 the first woman to win the Ontario Lieutenant Governor's Medal for shooting 00:01:30.855 --> 00:01:32.655 Retired Captain Keith Cunningham. 00:01:32.655 --> 00:01:37.125 With over 25 years of experience in the Canadian and US Armed Forces combat 00:01:37.130 --> 00:01:42.285 tours of Vietnam peacekeeping and counter, snipping operations as Cyprus, 00:01:42.285 --> 00:01:47.265 and together with Linda run Milk and Training Center and they coach high level 00:01:47.265 --> 00:01:49.395 competitive shooters and professionals. 00:01:49.785 --> 00:01:53.655 Around the world and have authored the book Mental Marksmanship, which we've 00:01:53.655 --> 00:01:57.735 discussed in past episodes of the Silver Core Podcast with my friend Ryan Stacy, 00:01:58.335 --> 00:02:03.855 finally retired Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman of the US Army, founder of the 00:02:03.855 --> 00:02:08.745 Grossman on Truth, author of numerous books, notably on killing the psychology, 00:02:08.835 --> 00:02:13.605 the psychological cost of Learning to kill in War and Society, and has teamed up with 00:02:13.605 --> 00:02:15.875 Linda and Keith in their brand new book: 00:02:16.275 --> 00:02:22.050 on hunting, a definitive study of the mind, body, and ecology of 00:02:22.050 --> 00:02:23.340 the hunter in the modern world. 00:02:23.430 --> 00:02:27.600 Welcome to the Silver Core Podcast, Linda, Keith, and Dave. 00:02:29.340 --> 00:02:30.120 Thank you Travis. 00:02:30.870 --> 00:02:31.560 Thanks Travis. 00:02:33.540 --> 00:02:34.620 sound very exciting. 00:02:34.625 --> 00:02:37.050 I'm really glad you did the intros, . Yes. 00:02:37.500 --> 00:02:41.370 Hey, you know, it's always easier for somebody else to, you bet. 00:02:42.644 --> 00:02:48.584 So we've we're, um, you guys are just wrapping up a week of recording 00:02:48.584 --> 00:02:50.954 your audiobook for On Hunting. 00:02:50.954 --> 00:02:54.674 And right now I believe you guys are all in Dave's house in separate rooms. 00:02:54.674 --> 00:02:57.734 I think we've got all of our technical issues kind of sorted 00:02:58.125 --> 00:03:01.424 and, um, there might be a little bit of delay while we're talking here. 00:03:01.424 --> 00:03:04.875 Hopefully that doesn't interrupt the flow too much, but I, what I'm 00:03:04.875 --> 00:03:10.484 really curious about is what was the impetus for the book on hunting? 00:03:10.484 --> 00:03:12.114 How did this first come about? 00:03:13.464 --> 00:03:14.265 You're up, Dave? 00:03:14.804 --> 00:03:17.174 Uh, well, I, I've had the idea for a long time. 00:03:17.864 --> 00:03:23.265 Um, I, I wrote "On Killing" and, uh, it evolved into, on combat, 00:03:23.864 --> 00:03:28.935 uh, the two distinctly different dynamics, but the, the third leg of 00:03:28.935 --> 00:03:31.154 understanding human beings is hunting. 00:03:31.875 --> 00:03:36.404 Uh, you know, it, it's all we did that, Linda, there's a great quote in the 00:03:36.404 --> 00:03:42.494 book about if the existence of mankind was 24 hours, Right up until the last 00:03:42.494 --> 00:03:44.295 six minutes, all we did was hunt. 00:03:45.015 --> 00:03:47.054 You know, it's who we are, it's what we were built to do. 00:03:47.054 --> 00:03:48.405 It's what we were designed to do. 00:03:48.885 --> 00:03:52.605 And, and I mentioned that to Linda one time, uh, and I thought, what do you 00:03:52.605 --> 00:03:54.135 think about co-authoring this book? 00:03:54.135 --> 00:03:58.785 I've got an outline and a concept that passed it to Linda and boom, you 00:03:58.785 --> 00:04:00.015 know, I'll let her take it from there. 00:04:03.255 --> 00:04:07.964 So next, um, as with most of these things, I had to actually get knowledgeable 00:04:07.964 --> 00:04:11.760 about hunting cuz like most people, I was a hunter but I really didn't know 00:04:11.760 --> 00:04:16.589 much more than just how to, you know, ask my gunsmith to keep my gun tuned 00:04:16.589 --> 00:04:20.010 and go out into the stand and, you know, shoot a deer when it arrived. 00:04:20.040 --> 00:04:21.779 So I did a lot of reading. 00:04:21.779 --> 00:04:26.400 I read a couple of hundred books, um, some of them very old, some of them very new. 00:04:26.820 --> 00:04:32.550 And it was very interesting to see other people's perspectives on hunting and 00:04:32.550 --> 00:04:38.219 some of their, their discomforts uh, and where I thought it all tied back 00:04:38.219 --> 00:04:41.400 together again was very, very old times. 00:04:41.729 --> 00:04:48.870 And my first idea was that old times were back to the, um, uh, gods 00:04:48.870 --> 00:04:52.560 and goddesses of the great Greek and Roman empires because they all 00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:56.460 had, you know, gods and goddesses, usually goddesses of, of the hunt. 00:04:57.090 --> 00:05:00.539 And then I realized that that's not old. 00:05:00.930 --> 00:05:06.780 What's old is stone stone age man, or even earlier before, certainly 00:05:06.780 --> 00:05:10.950 well before written records and well before a lot of artifacts, 00:05:11.280 --> 00:05:13.530 and we were hunters all that time. 00:05:13.530 --> 00:05:20.100 We came from hunting stock and trying to get an understanding of the depth of that 00:05:20.105 --> 00:05:23.040 connection drove a lot of my reading. 00:05:23.700 --> 00:05:27.270 And then, you know, there were other things that they've had on his 00:05:27.270 --> 00:05:29.170 wishlist, and I think we met them all. 00:05:29.505 --> 00:05:32.294 Um, he thought that we needed to talk about ethics. 00:05:32.745 --> 00:05:36.705 So we talked about, um, and did a fair bit of research about how 00:05:36.705 --> 00:05:41.685 animals behave and what kind of ethics they would've brought to the table 00:05:41.685 --> 00:05:47.505 before man, and then how early men would've, what ethics they would have. 00:05:47.510 --> 00:05:51.945 Ethic, mostly ethics of efficiency because you can't be spending more 00:05:51.945 --> 00:05:55.155 calories than you're getting, you know, or you're not gonna live. 00:05:55.635 --> 00:05:59.455 Um, and right through to modern times when we have much more 00:05:59.505 --> 00:06:02.265 capable, um, killing power. 00:06:03.135 --> 00:06:07.275 And we need to temper that, uh, in order to have a fair and safe hunt. 00:06:07.815 --> 00:06:12.164 And so then we, what, what else did we wanna cover, Dave? 00:06:12.164 --> 00:06:15.585 It was, um, uh, the tools and skills, I think. 00:06:15.794 --> 00:06:15.945 eh? 00:06:16.005 --> 00:06:21.555 What's in common, uh, across time and around the world and the types of skills 00:06:21.555 --> 00:06:25.890 that you need and the kinds of tools that you now more or less allowed to use. 00:06:26.010 --> 00:06:27.480 Uh, they're all available to us. 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:31.680 We could go back to addle addles and slingshots, but many jurisdictions, you're 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:34.080 not allowed to use those for a game hunt. 00:06:34.710 --> 00:06:39.060 Um, and then we talked about the relationship between some of those 00:06:39.060 --> 00:06:44.850 skills and processes to, um, other things that you might be knowledgeable in. 00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:53.765 Um, police work, military, anything that involves any kind of, of stalking and tool 00:06:53.765 --> 00:06:56.745 use and, uh, if need be, then killing. 00:06:57.435 --> 00:07:00.585 And so we looked at, at that and the connections. 00:07:01.005 --> 00:07:05.625 And then finally we looked at what's the place of the hunter in 00:07:05.625 --> 00:07:07.815 the modern world Is there a place? 00:07:08.505 --> 00:07:11.865 And what does that, what does that look like, and how does 00:07:11.865 --> 00:07:14.025 he participate and contribute? 00:07:14.655 --> 00:07:18.674 And what we found was that because we are all under the 00:07:18.674 --> 00:07:21.344 skin, all wired to be hunters. 00:07:21.865 --> 00:07:29.010 That we all can access this incredible depth of history that we, our little 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:34.830 pool of jeans has to those pools of jeans that, that are our fore bearers. 00:07:36.270 --> 00:07:37.800 I find that so interesting. 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:42.210 And Keith, did you wanna chime in on there at all of the, I don't know if 00:07:42.210 --> 00:07:45.900 they, I don't know if Dave mentioned it, but, uh, the, the part that. 00:07:47.025 --> 00:07:51.375 kind of perked my ears up, was one, one time we were at, at one of Dave's 00:07:51.375 --> 00:07:56.955 seminars and he, he, uh, said to Linda, I'm gonna make you famous and rich. 00:07:57.555 --> 00:08:02.445 And, and Linda said, well, , I'm not too, I don't care much about the famous, but 00:08:02.450 --> 00:08:04.245 I'm very interested in that rich part. 00:08:05.145 --> 00:08:09.735 And, uh, my contribution to the book was pretty much to stay outta 00:08:09.735 --> 00:08:13.890 Linda's way while she was reading all those, all those 200 and some books. 00:08:14.470 --> 00:08:18.150 Uh, and then throughout the book we needed, uh, campfire stories. 00:08:18.150 --> 00:08:22.500 And so that's where I came in and, uh, and wrote several of those, uh, those 00:08:22.500 --> 00:08:27.270 campfire stories, which I enjoyed writing, and I certainly enjoyed, uh, reading 00:08:27.275 --> 00:08:29.460 them, uh, when we did this audio book. 00:08:30.930 --> 00:08:34.020 There's something that so human about. 00:08:34.020 --> 00:08:34.770 Yeah, yeah. 00:08:35.100 --> 00:08:35.430 Sorry. 00:08:35.520 --> 00:08:36.450 Say, say again, Dave. 00:08:36.750 --> 00:08:40.590 As we were doing the narration, uh, the campfire stories that 00:08:40.590 --> 00:08:43.964 Keith had written were really the areas that choked us all up. 00:08:44.655 --> 00:08:44.834 All right. 00:08:44.834 --> 00:08:45.814 That was so powerful. 00:08:46.185 --> 00:08:47.775 And then Linda did her homework. 00:08:47.775 --> 00:08:51.495 But they, all of the areas I kind of anticipated, the one that came 00:08:51.495 --> 00:08:55.755 outta nowhere and really was most important was the whole business 00:08:55.760 --> 00:08:58.635 of, uh, of sustaining the ecology. 00:08:59.145 --> 00:09:03.555 And we got that Nairobi, you know, we got the, the Kenya versus uh, 00:09:03.645 --> 00:09:06.885 uh, uh, Linda kind of run with that. 00:09:06.944 --> 00:09:08.444 I think it's most smart thing in the book. 00:09:08.444 --> 00:09:12.015 And I didn't see that coming is where the hunter is really the deep 00:09:12.015 --> 00:09:16.395 pockets and the great resources to sustain conservation over the years. 00:09:18.975 --> 00:09:19.275 Yeah. 00:09:19.275 --> 00:09:22.725 If I may be so crude, we're the only ones who actually give a damn. 00:09:23.444 --> 00:09:23.715 Yeah. 00:09:24.135 --> 00:09:24.465 Hunters. 00:09:24.465 --> 00:09:25.725 Hunters, yeah. 00:09:25.725 --> 00:09:26.085 Yeah. 00:09:26.745 --> 00:09:28.245 It's not the first time I've heard that. 00:09:29.075 --> 00:09:32.625 You know, hunters will quite often be, you know, the bird watchers. 00:09:32.655 --> 00:09:34.965 They like going out there and watching the birds just like we do. 00:09:34.965 --> 00:09:37.694 But why aren't they contributing to conservation the same way? 00:09:37.875 --> 00:09:37.995 Right. 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:38.165 Right. 00:09:38.730 --> 00:09:40.890 If he had hunter a hunting license to do it. 00:09:40.930 --> 00:09:44.340 And, uh, and, uh, you know, and, and pay for a tag for every deer 00:09:44.340 --> 00:09:47.400 that, for every bird that they spotted, they probably wouldn't, 00:09:47.880 --> 00:09:49.500 that it wouldn't pursue that sport. 00:09:49.500 --> 00:09:51.810 And then here are hunters paying vast amounts of money 00:09:51.810 --> 00:09:52.770 to do what they need to do. 00:09:52.770 --> 00:09:58.650 But, but Linda, dive into that Kenya versus, uh, Namibia model. 00:09:59.580 --> 00:10:01.020 Sorry, was there a question in there for me? 00:10:01.230 --> 00:10:03.720 Yeah, can you go ahead and, and you know, what's happening in Kenya, 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:05.340 what's happening in Namibia and that. 00:10:05.835 --> 00:10:07.245 Comparison dynamic. 00:10:07.605 --> 00:10:07.965 Yeah. 00:10:08.475 --> 00:10:15.435 Um, Kenya had a really serious problem, um, decades ago with, um, 00:10:16.875 --> 00:10:21.495 with poaching and a lot, uh, b both for ivory, it was called the Ivory Wars. 00:10:22.005 --> 00:10:28.425 Um, but there were lots of other, um, uh, victims in, in what was going 00:10:28.425 --> 00:10:36.225 on, and, and there were lots of very powerful parties who were supporting uh, 00:10:36.225 --> 00:10:42.885 illegal meat trade and any kind of high value, uh, ivory or anything like that. 00:10:43.335 --> 00:10:49.785 Um, and so the government of Kenya said, absolutely no more. 00:10:50.085 --> 00:10:54.915 We're not going to allow anything to be taken, uh, in, in any 00:10:54.915 --> 00:10:56.625 kind of hunting or poaching. 00:10:57.255 --> 00:11:01.605 Well, it's easy to stop hunting because we're all law abiding and, 00:11:01.965 --> 00:11:03.495 you know, pay a great deal to hunt. 00:11:04.860 --> 00:11:07.650 But it's not so easy to stop poaching, right? 00:11:07.650 --> 00:11:13.830 So the first thing that happened in Kenya is that the animal population 00:11:14.220 --> 00:11:19.590 absolutely dropped, um, because everybody, there were no hunters. 00:11:19.590 --> 00:11:23.550 There was no investment in, uh, in anti poaching efforts. 00:11:23.555 --> 00:11:26.340 It just, they took over and they killed. 00:11:26.790 --> 00:11:32.730 I think the best estimate is something between 70 and 80% of the game in Kenya. 00:11:33.700 --> 00:11:38.625 Now it has come back a little bit, but they still don't have the kind 00:11:38.625 --> 00:11:41.085 of funding that Hunters had brought. 00:11:41.085 --> 00:11:43.035 So they're still struggling somewhat. 00:11:44.445 --> 00:11:48.795 They have a booming business in, uh, in safaris, uh, photo 00:11:48.795 --> 00:11:51.705 safaris and, um, and that's great. 00:11:51.885 --> 00:11:57.135 Uh, but, but it doesn't contribute to the economy the way, uh, safari hunting does. 00:11:57.875 --> 00:12:03.165 Namibia on the other hand had, um, had an unfortunate war with 00:12:03.165 --> 00:12:04.814 South Africa with a good outcome. 00:12:05.324 --> 00:12:09.944 The outcome was that Namibia won their independence from South Africa, and the 00:12:09.944 --> 00:12:14.115 people who were in charge said, we're not gonna follow that Kenya example. 00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:18.675 What we're gonna do is we are gonna set up conservancies, and the 00:12:18.675 --> 00:12:20.805 conservancies are going to be owned. 00:12:21.314 --> 00:12:25.334 Uh, some are owned by tribes, some are owned by investors, some are owned 00:12:25.395 --> 00:12:30.210 by um, people that have lived there for, uh, for several generations, uh, 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:31.890 with some German background in them. 00:12:32.370 --> 00:12:35.280 And, um, the conservancies are huge. 00:12:35.340 --> 00:12:41.880 The one that we were on was 25,000 acres, and they are in charge of 00:12:42.060 --> 00:12:46.440 keeping their animal population up so that it can be hunted. 00:12:46.860 --> 00:12:50.010 And when it is hunted, the meat, of course, is all used. 00:12:50.400 --> 00:12:55.890 Uh, it goes either to the, um, running of the business on the conservancy or 00:12:55.890 --> 00:13:01.800 to the local indigenous tribe, or if it's a, an indigenous, uh, conservancy, 00:13:01.800 --> 00:13:05.670 then of course they, uh, they take care of the meat and, and, uh, give 00:13:05.670 --> 00:13:08.219 it out or sell it, uh, in some cases. 00:13:08.224 --> 00:13:10.170 So it's, it's a booming business. 00:13:10.530 --> 00:13:16.170 Uh, the animals become assets and it's in everyone's interest to take care of 00:13:16.170 --> 00:13:18.915 them, and it's worked extremely well. 00:13:19.775 --> 00:13:23.010 Yeah, it's interesting that North American model of conservation 00:13:23.010 --> 00:13:26.640 and, and how it is applied and how other places can pick it up. 00:13:26.640 --> 00:13:31.319 Once you commoditize something and you realize that it's, it's a resource and 00:13:31.324 --> 00:13:36.300 there's a scarcity to it, all of a sudden the idea of conserving that becomes 00:13:36.329 --> 00:13:38.790 first and foremost, it gives it value. 00:13:39.180 --> 00:13:43.439 And, you know, if, if you outlaw hunting, the poachers will go around 00:13:43.439 --> 00:13:48.150 all of a sudden that life really has , it lacks the value that it 00:13:48.150 --> 00:13:49.380 has when it's when you're hunting. 00:13:49.380 --> 00:13:53.940 And I've, I've got friends who are, do security and work over in South 00:13:53.940 --> 00:13:57.870 Africa and you know, I remember we're having sushi over here in Delta and 00:13:57.870 --> 00:14:01.020 a guy gets a text message come in and he looks at this, makes kind 00:14:01.020 --> 00:14:03.240 of a funny face and puts it down. 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:04.740 I was like, what was that about? 00:14:04.740 --> 00:14:08.790 He's like, oh, there's some poachers they caught over in and the fellow's 00:14:09.290 --> 00:14:10.410 property that they, he knows of. 00:14:11.505 --> 00:14:11.925 Really? 00:14:12.075 --> 00:14:13.425 And he's, oh, yeah. 00:14:13.425 --> 00:14:14.415 And he shows you the picture. 00:14:14.415 --> 00:14:16.425 And there's three guys that just killed them, and that's what 00:14:16.425 --> 00:14:17.655 they do with poachers over there. 00:14:17.655 --> 00:14:20.265 They're just very, very ruthless. 00:14:20.270 --> 00:14:20.895 Justice. 00:14:21.375 --> 00:14:27.075 Now, it creates a very different system when you bring that value for 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:28.665 the life of the animal out of it. 00:14:28.665 --> 00:14:30.225 And it's kind of like life and death, right? 00:14:30.225 --> 00:14:33.435 Death is what gives life value. 00:14:33.855 --> 00:14:38.895 When we start looking at these animals and our resources as something that is gonna 00:14:38.895 --> 00:14:44.925 be, I guess, a commodity , all of a sudden it gets respected in a different way. 00:14:44.925 --> 00:14:46.425 At least that's my observation. 00:14:46.425 --> 00:14:49.245 And when looking, reading through your book, I, I see some of, 00:14:49.305 --> 00:14:52.454 um, the work, Dave, that you've done in the past on, from, "On 00:14:52.454 --> 00:14:54.854 Killing" bleeding over into this. 00:14:54.860 --> 00:14:59.265 And I, I see a parallel between the number of, uh, uh, these ideas. 00:14:59.925 --> 00:15:01.185 What, what are your thoughts on that? 00:15:01.515 --> 00:15:05.564 Well, you know, this, this really is, you can't understand killing, 00:15:05.564 --> 00:15:09.344 you can't understand combat until you understand hunting. 00:15:09.975 --> 00:15:14.955 So on killing, for example, if you go to Google Scholars scholar.google.com, 00:15:15.825 --> 00:15:19.815 uh, and you look up, uh, uh, any work and see how many times it's been 00:15:19.815 --> 00:15:24.255 cited in scholarly works, and, and I, I was at this thing where this 00:15:24.260 --> 00:15:28.395 one academic guy was retiring and they said his, his, his papers have 00:15:28.400 --> 00:15:31.335 been cited over, you know, 200 times. 00:15:32.115 --> 00:15:33.435 I thought, wow, that's pretty cool. 00:15:33.435 --> 00:15:37.080 You know, throughout his lifetime, his stuff has been, What about my stuff? 00:15:37.140 --> 00:15:40.470 I went to google.scholar.com and "On Killing" alone has 00:15:40.470 --> 00:15:43.410 been cited over 3,600 times. 00:15:43.680 --> 00:15:45.390 Well, that's what On Hunting is gonna be. 00:15:45.390 --> 00:15:45.990 Wow. 00:15:46.140 --> 00:15:48.810 It's gonna be that level of scholarly dynamic. 00:15:48.810 --> 00:15:50.670 And Linda's laid that foundation. 00:15:50.670 --> 00:15:51.900 She did her lit review. 00:15:51.900 --> 00:15:53.130 You know, she put it all together. 00:15:53.520 --> 00:15:57.990 But here's the heart of the matter that Crazy American will pay. 00:15:57.990 --> 00:15:59.100 Well, what's the record, Linda? 00:15:59.100 --> 00:16:04.160 A quarter of a million dollars to, to go over it and shoot that, that, that lion. 00:16:04.710 --> 00:16:06.060 who's, and here's the key. 00:16:06.420 --> 00:16:08.699 He's at the end of his life cycle anyway. 00:16:09.209 --> 00:16:13.530 And oh, by the way, death by old age in nature is a horrible, 00:16:13.535 --> 00:16:18.390 hideous, slow death as you're eaten alive by rodents and insects. 00:16:18.420 --> 00:16:18.510 Mm-hmm. 00:16:18.780 --> 00:16:22.469 , you know, they, nobody puts you unless there's a predator there that puts you 00:16:22.469 --> 00:16:26.219 out of your mercy, out, out of your, you know, and, uh, what we had one part 00:16:26.219 --> 00:16:30.719 in there where a guy said, if as he watched a calf Wildebeest being killed 00:16:30.900 --> 00:16:33.380 and eaten alive on this photo, safari. 00:16:33.839 --> 00:16:37.979 Within, within 30 seconds, everybody on the Saari was screaming, put him out of 00:16:37.979 --> 00:16:39.990 his mercy, put him out of his misery. 00:16:40.500 --> 00:16:41.060 Right? 00:16:41.160 --> 00:16:45.000 And that's the ethical kill at the hunter at the end of the life cycle. 00:16:45.270 --> 00:16:49.920 And that pays for all of the game wardens you would ever need to protect that game. 00:16:50.130 --> 00:16:53.640 This is so important to get across, is what we're doing. 00:16:53.640 --> 00:16:58.880 So killing, uh, as you said is, is commoditized, but they're gonna die. 00:16:58.910 --> 00:17:01.439 They're at the end their life cycle and so slow, hideous death. 00:17:01.770 --> 00:17:05.940 and we can get value from that death, but we honor that creature, 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:07.839 uh, we honor their memory. 00:17:08.430 --> 00:17:11.430 And uh, and the money goes back into the community. 00:17:11.430 --> 00:17:12.420 It's, it's brilliant. 00:17:12.420 --> 00:17:14.130 And I, I never saw that coming. 00:17:14.130 --> 00:17:18.270 And Linda just, and Linda and Keith and their, uh, uh, in their, uh, their 00:17:18.569 --> 00:17:22.290 own safari had really given great information to make that come alive. 00:17:22.890 --> 00:17:27.750 Is that, does that tie in Keith, you know, from your perspective in there, I'm sure. 00:17:27.750 --> 00:17:28.430 Was there a. 00:17:30.195 --> 00:17:31.725 I, I have trouble hearing Keith. 00:17:32.025 --> 00:17:34.065 I have trouble hearing Dave so I'm not sure if there was 00:17:34.070 --> 00:17:35.205 a question in there for me. 00:17:36.045 --> 00:17:37.965 Yeah, just been around gunfire too long. 00:17:37.965 --> 00:17:40.425 Keith , thank you for that compliment. 00:17:41.955 --> 00:17:42.735 , what was the question? 00:17:44.295 --> 00:17:49.485 Just what, what, what you had to, to, to add into that equation of, that the, the 00:17:49.485 --> 00:17:53.955 hunting and your experiences in Namibia and how, how it kind of framed this 00:17:53.955 --> 00:17:59.175 model of the, the economics uh, of, uh, of the the hunter in the modern world. 00:18:01.065 --> 00:18:06.405 It was incredibly obvious, uh, when you go and hunt on those, uh, uh, conservatories 00:18:06.405 --> 00:18:12.555 and, uh, and deal with the, the PH's and all of their, uh, trackers, uh, exactly 00:18:12.555 --> 00:18:15.285 how all that model, uh, is playing out. 00:18:15.615 --> 00:18:17.745 And it was, it was just so obvious. 00:18:18.105 --> 00:18:22.455 Uh, it would be good if our own, our, our own, uh, lawmakers here 00:18:22.455 --> 00:18:24.210 were to, to see that sort of stuff. 00:18:24.690 --> 00:18:29.250 One of the things that really stuck in my mind is, uh, the pH told us, 00:18:29.550 --> 00:18:34.380 uh, of a drought that was going on, uh, in the land, uh, and, uh, the 00:18:34.380 --> 00:18:39.390 animals on his conservatory 25,000 acres were starving to death. 00:18:39.870 --> 00:18:44.520 Uh, and so he had to bring in feed, uh, and it wasn't a lot, it was just 00:18:44.520 --> 00:18:46.320 enough to try to keep them, them going. 00:18:46.590 --> 00:18:50.310 You had to bring in feed and, and feed the animals until the next rain came. 00:18:50.850 --> 00:18:55.065 Uh, and it was hunters that, uh, that backed him on that with money. 00:18:55.514 --> 00:19:01.274 There wasn't one anti gunner, one greenie one, anybody else at all, 00:19:01.785 --> 00:19:02.985 uh, that helped him with that. 00:19:03.405 --> 00:19:04.815 Uh, except the hunters. 00:19:04.815 --> 00:19:08.264 And I think that says a whole lot right there we're the ones that give a damn. 00:19:09.905 --> 00:19:10.175 Amen. 00:19:10.585 --> 00:19:11.955 Why do you think that is? 00:19:11.955 --> 00:19:12.795 Because there's nothing. 00:19:14.024 --> 00:19:15.345 Oh, I was gonna say, why do you think that is? 00:19:15.435 --> 00:19:18.555 Cuz there's nothing stopping the bird watcher from buying a. 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:21.000 A migratory bird tag. 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:24.930 There's nothing stopping the hiker or the photographer from going out and 00:19:25.370 --> 00:19:28.680 contributing to conservation in the exact same way that that hunters do. 00:19:29.040 --> 00:19:31.230 Well, I think that why, why is it the hunters? 00:19:31.290 --> 00:19:35.040 Well, I think it is because if, if, if, uh, anti hunter goes out and 00:19:35.040 --> 00:19:39.570 buy and, and buys a tag, the concept is that he's supporting hunting. 00:19:40.139 --> 00:19:45.090 Uh, and in fact, if it was to ever get out that if they wanted to reduce the 00:19:45.090 --> 00:19:48.915 number of animals killed in a hunt, All they gotta do is go out and buy every 00:19:48.915 --> 00:19:51.195 tag, uh, that's available out there, 00:19:51.915 --> 00:19:53.205 Uh, but we won't let that get out. 00:19:53.205 --> 00:19:53.765 Don't do that. 00:19:54.015 --> 00:19:55.035 We won't let that get out. 00:19:55.455 --> 00:19:55.935 . So some, 00:19:59.355 --> 00:20:00.435 sometimes they do that. 00:20:00.435 --> 00:20:04.245 I, for example, when the grizzly bear hunt in British Columbia was permissible 00:20:04.245 --> 00:20:08.475 right now it currently isn't, uh, there are indigenous groups that are like, 00:20:08.745 --> 00:20:12.645 they're saying, look at the conservation of our grizzly, uh, population 00:20:12.645 --> 00:20:15.115 is not being addressed properly. 00:20:15.585 --> 00:20:20.820 And we are now taking matters into our own hands, and we are initiating calls 00:20:20.820 --> 00:20:22.530 or putting bounties on the grizzlies. 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:27.870 I mean, the idea of this, this feel good, uh, live and let live and everything 00:20:27.875 --> 00:20:33.720 lives it, it sounds good in theory, but the reality of humanity in recorded 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:37.530 history would say that it doesn't play out in prac in the practical world. 00:20:38.040 --> 00:20:41.090 And there's probably a reason why. 00:20:41.570 --> 00:20:46.995 Like maybe the life death cycle and that struggle both in the human 00:20:46.995 --> 00:20:53.145 sense as well as as with animals, is just an innate part of us. 00:20:53.205 --> 00:20:55.545 And I think you guys touch on that in a way in the book 00:20:55.605 --> 00:20:57.345 that that's really intriguing. 00:20:58.065 --> 00:21:01.935 Well, I think the anti hunters, uh, just simply don't know what they don't know. 00:21:02.355 --> 00:21:07.755 Uh, they're a very emotional bunch, uh, and they go off in, in, in that, uh, 00:21:07.755 --> 00:21:10.980 tangeant they don't, um, look into it. 00:21:10.980 --> 00:21:12.060 They don't study it. 00:21:12.060 --> 00:21:13.830 They just don't know what they don't know. 00:21:14.070 --> 00:21:15.720 They figure, well, you're killing animals. 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:17.370 You must be doing it all wrong. 00:21:18.060 --> 00:21:19.260 Well, they're wrong. 00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:25.950 , uh, you know, , there's, there's more conservation, uh, from us hunters than 00:21:25.950 --> 00:21:27.990 than they ever thought of providing. 00:21:29.820 --> 00:21:31.140 How do we get that message to them? 00:21:31.260 --> 00:21:35.325 How do we get that message in a way where everyone's pushing together in 00:21:35.325 --> 00:21:37.365 a, in the, cuz we've got the same goals. 00:21:37.365 --> 00:21:38.625 We all want to see the animals. 00:21:38.625 --> 00:21:42.135 We all want to, it's not as Shane Mahoney would say, that we 00:21:42.135 --> 00:21:43.995 have dominion over the animals. 00:21:44.085 --> 00:21:47.475 It's that we are one of them and we all work together in a certain way. 00:21:47.895 --> 00:21:51.015 And I believe that the anti-hunters and the hunters both want that 00:21:51.015 --> 00:21:56.475 same goal of having, having our ecosystem, having natural resources, 00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:57.725 having the animals around, 00:21:58.355 --> 00:22:00.135 but we're approaching it from two different ways. 00:22:00.135 --> 00:22:01.725 How do we kind of get in the same line? 00:22:02.365 --> 00:22:06.104 I think, I think the, if we can, I think we gotta pursue exactly what we're doing. 00:22:06.104 --> 00:22:09.945 I think, uh, they pursue it from the emotional side, and of course the hunters 00:22:09.945 --> 00:22:12.074 pursue it from the scientific side. 00:22:12.495 --> 00:22:15.824 Uh, we got lots of biologists out there that are, that are, uh, 00:22:15.824 --> 00:22:17.235 saying the way it needs to be done. 00:22:17.235 --> 00:22:23.295 And I think we just need to, uh, you know Steer the steady course and uh, 00:22:23.295 --> 00:22:27.705 and keep doing that and you, you hear a little bit less, I don't think I hear 00:22:27.705 --> 00:22:29.925 so much protesting as there used to be. 00:22:30.255 --> 00:22:34.185 And I think a lot of the protestors are maybe starting to have a bit of 00:22:34.185 --> 00:22:39.375 this scientific logic dribble into their little, their little brains. 00:22:39.645 --> 00:22:44.085 Uh, and it may be starting to, to show up just a little wee bit now, and I think if 00:22:44.085 --> 00:22:47.925 we just keep on doin it there's lots and lots of good models out there, Africa. 00:22:47.925 --> 00:22:52.814 It, it has lots of good models on how it happens, you know, here, uh, in North 00:22:52.814 --> 00:22:56.895 America we've got more, we've got more deer, moose and elk than we ever had, 00:22:56.955 --> 00:22:58.814 uh, you know, in the last hundred years. 00:22:59.115 --> 00:23:02.925 Uh, it's working and I think we just gotta stay the course, 00:23:04.064 --> 00:23:05.445 educate them whenever we can. 00:23:07.215 --> 00:23:10.725 When is the last time that rational, oh, sorry Dave, go on. 00:23:10.754 --> 00:23:15.650 Don't, I was gonna say, if we could just write a really powerful 00:23:15.655 --> 00:23:19.920 book on this subject, a book that hunters could say, here, read, 00:23:20.280 --> 00:23:22.200 read this, and you'll understand. 00:23:22.500 --> 00:23:23.760 If we could just, yeah. 00:23:23.790 --> 00:23:27.450 If somebody would just write this book and, and, and then Hunters can 00:23:27.450 --> 00:23:28.920 grab this book and shove it at 'em. 00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:30.870 Say, here, read this now, you'll understand. 00:23:30.875 --> 00:23:32.640 If only somebody could just write that book. 00:23:35.370 --> 00:23:37.140 . Well, I, yes. 00:23:37.710 --> 00:23:41.550 I think one of the things we have to be a little careful about is 00:23:41.550 --> 00:23:44.475 that the hunters is fewer than 10%. 00:23:45.105 --> 00:23:50.235 The anti-hunters, as far as we can figure, are something fewer than 5% in 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:53.715 between are a whole bunch of non-hunters. 00:23:53.985 --> 00:23:56.265 For a vast number of reasons. 00:23:56.505 --> 00:24:03.345 They just don't hunt and we've, we spent the last week doing an audio book with a 00:24:03.345 --> 00:24:11.125 fellow who fell in that category and he was absolutely educated, moved astonished. 00:24:11.610 --> 00:24:13.200 And said he felt blessed. 00:24:13.500 --> 00:24:17.640 It was a life-changing event for him to listen to our book. 00:24:18.150 --> 00:24:24.030 So I think it's that vast middle group that, that we can reach and, 00:24:24.180 --> 00:24:25.980 and get some effective traction. 00:24:26.820 --> 00:24:31.770 I didn't realize that those numbers, I didn't realize from the way that 00:24:31.770 --> 00:24:38.835 the anti hunters speak and have their voice herd, you would think they far 00:24:38.835 --> 00:24:41.295 outweigh the, the lowly hunters here. 00:24:41.295 --> 00:24:43.395 The, the few far and few between. 00:24:43.515 --> 00:24:46.755 I didn't realize that we almost, hunters almost double anti-hunting. 00:24:46.755 --> 00:24:47.815 That's interesting. 00:24:48.225 --> 00:24:52.995 The rest of this apathetic, well, huge, huge number of, of, of votes and 00:24:52.995 --> 00:24:58.275 determination and strength are with the non-hunters and they're a much 00:24:58.275 --> 00:25:00.075 more amenable group to our message. 00:25:01.185 --> 00:25:07.230 I can't think of the last time when I've been able to use rational, logical 00:25:07.230 --> 00:25:09.960 thought to combat an emotional argument. 00:25:10.350 --> 00:25:14.560 And I think that's where the campfire stories like what you're 00:25:14.580 --> 00:25:18.240 contributing there, Keith, are extremely important because we're 00:25:18.600 --> 00:25:20.760 humans, are storytellers at heart. 00:25:21.120 --> 00:25:23.460 I mean, we are drawn to the story. 00:25:23.460 --> 00:25:27.330 We're drawn to the visual story, the audio story, the whatever it might. 00:25:28.235 --> 00:25:31.635 And sitting around a campfire is as old as fire itself. 00:25:31.665 --> 00:25:34.574 I mean, soldiers, they would talk about having Hexie tv, right? 00:25:34.574 --> 00:25:38.235 Which is the little hexamine tablets, and they sit there watching that thing 00:25:38.264 --> 00:25:40.425 zoning out, and it's a bit of an escape. 00:25:40.514 --> 00:25:42.254 and the, yeah, the Hexie tv. 00:25:43.814 --> 00:25:49.395 Combining that with the stories of how things have been done in the past is 00:25:49.395 --> 00:25:53.314 the traditional way, how we've always carried that information forward and I, 00:25:53.675 --> 00:25:59.655 personally, I think you guys are probably touching on that key piece because it, 00:25:59.805 --> 00:26:07.305 the emotional argument side doesn't want to listen to facts, but if you can touch 00:26:07.310 --> 00:26:11.685 that emotional side through the story that incorporates those facts, I think that's 00:26:11.685 --> 00:26:14.385 probably the best possible solution here. 00:26:14.955 --> 00:26:19.305 I think you can start most discussions with the anti hunters 00:26:19.305 --> 00:26:22.794 with three words, Kenya and Namibia. 00:26:24.075 --> 00:26:26.745 Go off and study those two from a hunting point of view, and, 00:26:26.745 --> 00:26:28.035 and you'll see the difference. 00:26:29.955 --> 00:26:34.095 Ah, and then you can stick our book in their face or maybe even slap them with 00:26:34.095 --> 00:26:41.175 it . But the, the other powerful component that I didn't see coming until we all got 00:26:41.175 --> 00:26:43.575 together and did it, was this audio book. 00:26:43.575 --> 00:26:48.255 I don't think there's ever been an audio book like it, uh, Keith was reading the, 00:26:48.315 --> 00:26:50.445 the, the summaries and the forwards. 00:26:51.045 --> 00:26:52.365 And then a chapter title. 00:26:52.365 --> 00:26:54.585 So went a subtitle, a section title. 00:26:54.975 --> 00:26:57.195 So, and then he read the campfire stories. 00:26:57.585 --> 00:27:00.705 And then, you know, we, all these wonderful, wonderful quotes that, 00:27:00.765 --> 00:27:04.725 that Linda had pulled together, the best words for the best people. 00:27:05.055 --> 00:27:08.565 She read all the quotes, and then I read, you know, kind of the text in between 00:27:09.135 --> 00:27:10.725 and, and, and so there's all of us. 00:27:10.725 --> 00:27:14.805 But what's really cool is the guy who did the recording, he 00:27:14.805 --> 00:27:16.435 was doing all kinds of outtakes. 00:27:16.950 --> 00:27:19.500 We would say, oh, by the way, you know, here's what happened here. 00:27:19.500 --> 00:27:21.960 And we'd laugh about this and we'd fumble over this 00:27:22.385 --> 00:27:28.110 And so this may be the first audio book ever done with an outtakes reel 00:27:28.590 --> 00:27:29.780 that allows people, oh, that's awesome. 00:27:29.780 --> 00:27:30.390 People to dig deep. 00:27:30.395 --> 00:27:31.620 It's just so much fun. 00:27:32.020 --> 00:27:33.090 , you gotta listen to the audio. 00:27:33.090 --> 00:27:37.180 It's gonna be fun and it will be part of the tool that allows us to, to 00:27:37.180 --> 00:27:38.430 get this information in their hands. 00:27:39.044 --> 00:27:42.435 You know, you, you know, you go for a drive, you plug in an audiobook, and you 00:27:42.435 --> 00:27:44.745 listen an hour a day during your commute. 00:27:45.225 --> 00:27:48.584 Uh, at the end of this book, you will be informed and transformed. 00:27:48.584 --> 00:27:52.604 And, and again, with Keith's, uh, you know, the, those campfire stories and 00:27:52.604 --> 00:27:56.084 uh, those great quotes, uh, it comes together to form something very powerful. 00:27:58.020 --> 00:28:01.470 I think those outtakes are, are important too, cuz it humanizes you. 00:28:01.649 --> 00:28:01.860 Yeah. 00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:05.010 Instead of that professional at the other end of the microphone, 00:28:05.010 --> 00:28:06.660 that's just relaying information. 00:28:06.660 --> 00:28:07.410 They're like, oh, okay. 00:28:07.410 --> 00:28:07.680 Yeah. 00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:09.000 They're imperfect just like me. 00:28:09.004 --> 00:28:14.550 Or they, they, they can make mistakes or get upset or flub things just like me. 00:28:14.555 --> 00:28:18.120 And that humanizing process is something that I, I see. 00:28:18.210 --> 00:28:24.435 Um, modern social media and the way that people communicate it seems to be, Have a 00:28:24.435 --> 00:28:29.024 dehumanizing approach to it and it creates an us against them sort of mentality. 00:28:29.385 --> 00:28:34.034 And when we can start looking at people that we would say as the opposition 00:28:34.034 --> 00:28:38.625 or the other side and realize that their goals and intentions by and 00:28:38.625 --> 00:28:43.034 large will align very much with our own and one-on-one dealing with them, 00:28:43.034 --> 00:28:44.625 they're pretty darn good people. 00:28:44.735 --> 00:28:45.155 Yes. 00:28:45.205 --> 00:28:45.794 Uh, yes. 00:28:45.800 --> 00:28:49.215 We just seem to differ on a few different ways of Implica application 00:28:50.595 --> 00:28:52.665 that humanization is hugely, important. 00:28:54.270 --> 00:28:55.470 you know, from the perspective of that. 00:28:55.650 --> 00:28:57.390 Talking about, so we're talking about ethics. 00:28:57.720 --> 00:28:57.870 Yeah. 00:28:58.170 --> 00:28:59.890 Linda, tell him about on runting. 00:29:00.990 --> 00:29:02.670 I can't remember what I said. 00:29:02.670 --> 00:29:04.510 I said something about on runting. 00:29:04.770 --> 00:29:08.790 It seemed right to me at the time, and Keith came back with what? 00:29:10.950 --> 00:29:13.920 Um, let's write a book on, on runting. 00:29:14.930 --> 00:29:15.460 On runting? 00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:17.610 It seemed funnier at the time. 00:29:17.610 --> 00:29:21.090 I'm not sure . Yeah. 00:29:22.095 --> 00:29:24.975 So capture as you're knee deep into all this stuff. 00:29:24.975 --> 00:29:28.995 And after a full long week of recording the audio, oh, let's 00:29:28.995 --> 00:29:31.715 write our next book, on runting. 00:29:31.730 --> 00:29:34.635 You'll, you'll hear in more details in the, in the outtakes. 00:29:35.805 --> 00:29:40.065 So eth ethics, would you brought those up as one of the important 00:29:40.065 --> 00:29:41.415 pieces of the puzzle in here. 00:29:41.415 --> 00:29:47.655 So ex ethics, I always remember because, so we hold the contract for online 00:29:47.655 --> 00:29:49.534 hunter education in British Columbia. 00:29:50.025 --> 00:29:56.235 One of the things that the province wants, uh, BC residents to know is the 00:29:56.235 --> 00:29:59.775 difference between morals and ethics and how ethics apply and how morals apply. 00:29:59.775 --> 00:30:02.235 And, you know, ethics are external. 00:30:02.445 --> 00:30:03.795 Morals are my own right. 00:30:03.800 --> 00:30:07.635 Ethics are something that's kind of, everyone agrees on together. 00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:11.175 And morals are something that I will hold to myself and it's a standard 00:30:11.175 --> 00:30:12.735 that I'm, I need to be able to meet. 00:30:13.455 --> 00:30:15.975 So ethics are gonna change depending on where we are. 00:30:16.275 --> 00:30:20.220 People will have different ethics in different areas of the world that 00:30:20.730 --> 00:30:24.750 have, had the culture and the group hold things perhaps a little bit differently. 00:30:25.320 --> 00:30:30.930 What was the take in the book on, was it thought to try and systemize ethics and 00:30:30.930 --> 00:30:33.030 so everyone's basically on the same page? 00:30:34.050 --> 00:30:35.010 Not, not at all. 00:30:35.250 --> 00:30:35.850 Not at all. 00:30:35.855 --> 00:30:36.120 No. 00:30:36.120 --> 00:30:36.400 Okay. 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:42.780 It's more, uh, an explanation of what ethics is, what some types of ethics are. 00:30:43.110 --> 00:30:46.580 So some people think they're being ethical if they follow all the rules. 00:30:46.990 --> 00:30:51.915 And some people think they're ethical if they're, um, one step closer to God. 00:30:52.604 --> 00:30:53.205 Do you know what I mean? 00:30:53.205 --> 00:30:54.284 Like they're, yes. 00:30:54.645 --> 00:30:54.794 Yeah. 00:30:54.824 --> 00:30:59.865 It's a very, very different kind of, of set of ethics, and most people 00:30:59.865 --> 00:31:04.365 subscribe to a few ethics from half a dozen different types of ethics, 00:31:04.465 --> 00:31:06.405 and, and you're exactly right. 00:31:06.405 --> 00:31:10.004 They're culturalized, so they, it isn't one size fits all at all. 00:31:10.225 --> 00:31:16.090 You, you really need to come to terms with your own moral behavior. 00:31:16.110 --> 00:31:20.370 And, uh, I guess my favorite line in the book on that is that, uh, 00:31:20.610 --> 00:31:24.630 morals and ethics are the things that you do when nobody's watching. 00:31:25.590 --> 00:31:26.100 Right. 00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:28.780 But that brings us back, back to something really important, Had a 00:31:28.780 --> 00:31:32.340 um, was that, that Hunter's oath? 00:31:33.210 --> 00:31:34.260 Talk about that, Linda. 00:31:34.500 --> 00:31:38.910 So there is this, you know, with all that said, there's still the hunters oath 00:31:38.910 --> 00:31:40.350 that you introduced that's so powerful. 00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:42.310 Yep. 00:31:42.800 --> 00:31:44.460 And that's, that's Keith Bailiwick. 00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:45.180 Yeah. 00:31:45.570 --> 00:31:48.690 Well, I don't, I don't have it memorized and I don't have, I was just looking 00:31:48.690 --> 00:31:51.180 around here to see if there was a, a copy. 00:31:51.570 --> 00:31:56.280 Linda has the copy in there and, uh, and the hunter's oath is in there someplace. 00:31:56.280 --> 00:32:01.740 And it's a good sort of general, general statement to, uh, to follow 00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:03.090 from an ethics point of view. 00:32:04.230 --> 00:32:08.750 Linda's looking for, well, perhaps, perhaps I add that to the description, 00:32:09.040 --> 00:32:13.725 but, in what we do here in the, on the video, in the audio format, and people 00:32:13.725 --> 00:32:16.995 can have a copy of the Hunter's Oath that they can kind of, uh, look at. 00:32:17.385 --> 00:32:20.145 But, uh, if that's all right with you guys. 00:32:20.355 --> 00:32:20.774 You bet. 00:32:20.895 --> 00:32:25.605 But maybe we just talk about it generally and, and it wraps up, the book, wraps up 00:32:26.024 --> 00:32:31.425 with the Hunter's prayer, which is also another, you know, it, it actually began 00:32:31.430 --> 00:32:33.025 as I understand the sniper's prayer. 00:32:33.815 --> 00:32:35.580 and it evolved into this hunter's prayer. 00:32:35.580 --> 00:32:38.490 And that's another one of, uh, Linda and Keith's amazing 00:32:39.010 --> 00:32:40.169 contributions to the community. 00:32:41.970 --> 00:32:45.149 We've got a, well, that's a very, we've got a book on the go right 00:32:45.155 --> 00:32:46.679 now called The Sniper's Prayer. 00:32:47.220 --> 00:32:51.540 Um, and, uh, and Linda wrote in the back, uh, the Sniper's Prayer. 00:32:51.990 --> 00:32:55.050 Uh, and it, what what's amazing about that, of course, is 00:32:55.050 --> 00:32:56.550 that Linda was never a sniper. 00:32:56.820 --> 00:32:58.230 She was never in the military. 00:32:58.560 --> 00:33:03.000 Uh, and yet she captured , the whole essence of, of what 00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:04.530 it's like, uh, to be a sniper. 00:33:04.890 --> 00:33:08.460 Well, there's a very similar, very thin line between being 00:33:08.460 --> 00:33:09.720 a sniper and being a hunter. 00:33:10.230 --> 00:33:14.310 Uh, and so she, uh, she changed the words slightly and turned it into 00:33:14.315 --> 00:33:17.820 the hunter's prayer, and that's, that's in the book, uh, as well. 00:33:18.360 --> 00:33:19.650 And uh, they're just amazing. 00:33:20.030 --> 00:33:21.450 Did you find the oath there, Linda? 00:33:22.600 --> 00:33:23.550 I did find the oath. 00:33:24.900 --> 00:33:25.800 Do you want me to read it? 00:33:25.800 --> 00:33:26.160 Yes, please. 00:33:26.910 --> 00:33:27.720 I can do that. 00:33:27.930 --> 00:33:29.130 I have the capability. 00:33:30.540 --> 00:33:32.550 The Hunter's Oath by Captain Keith A. 00:33:32.550 --> 00:33:32.850 Cunningham. 00:33:33.660 --> 00:33:37.560 I pledge on my honor as a hunter to follow the laws of nature 00:33:38.130 --> 00:33:41.790 always to hunt ethically and to obey the laws of the land. 00:33:42.420 --> 00:33:47.040 I further pledge to develop and maintain the skills required to develop an 00:33:47.040 --> 00:33:49.530 effective and humane shot to my quarry. 00:33:50.490 --> 00:33:55.710 I promise to always do everything within my power to recover my game animal and 00:33:55.710 --> 00:33:58.219 use it with respect for the life given. 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.245 Oh, I like that . That's so, and it's so simple and it wraps, 00:34:04.304 --> 00:34:07.004 it wraps up what a hunter is. 00:34:07.095 --> 00:34:07.845 Very succinct. 00:34:08.424 --> 00:34:08.705 Succinctly. 00:34:08.710 --> 00:34:08.835 Yep. 00:34:09.255 --> 00:34:11.685 Yeah, because anyone outside of that is a poacher. 00:34:11.924 --> 00:34:12.465 That's right. 00:34:12.465 --> 00:34:12.735 Yeah. 00:34:13.150 --> 00:34:13.485 That's right. 00:34:13.875 --> 00:34:14.085 Yep. 00:34:14.134 --> 00:34:20.085 I, I mean, there's, and, and if, sorry, go, go on Linda. 00:34:20.685 --> 00:34:24.435 If you're, if you're not following all of those elements, you might wanna just 00:34:24.435 --> 00:34:28.159 take a little look inside next time you're sitting in a tree stand and wondering 00:34:28.185 --> 00:34:30.045 what you need to be spending your time on. 00:34:30.045 --> 00:34:33.945 Just take a look at that oath and see if you have done everything, all of 00:34:33.945 --> 00:34:36.555 those elements as well as you want to. 00:34:37.635 --> 00:34:41.025 You know, it's very easy for people to get caught up in the 00:34:41.025 --> 00:34:42.764 competition of it all right? 00:34:43.155 --> 00:34:47.565 When they spend so much money to get their kit and gear, when they 00:34:47.565 --> 00:34:52.215 spend so many seasons chasing game and being unsuccessful. 00:34:52.215 --> 00:34:58.080 When they uh, travel to a remote location or they take time off of work and they 00:34:58.080 --> 00:35:04.320 start getting very, the goal for people can quite often be the animal, I've 00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:11.130 gotta get this animal, and sometimes otherwise, ethical people are people 00:35:11.130 --> 00:35:15.810 that you would view as ethical, can get caught up in the, the excitement 00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:19.819 or the competition, or the ego, or whatever it might be of the moment. 00:35:20.720 --> 00:35:24.795 And really challenge what their core beliefs are. 00:35:25.335 --> 00:35:29.685 And I remember, you know, any hunter out there who's been hunting for 00:35:29.685 --> 00:35:34.515 some time will have a story of when their ethics are put to the test, 00:35:34.515 --> 00:35:39.075 when their morals are put to the test, and how they responded to that. 00:35:39.915 --> 00:35:44.714 I, I remember even just last season, a friend of mine says, let's go out. 00:35:44.714 --> 00:35:49.585 We, neither of us were able to get a draw in BC for a bull moose. 00:35:49.925 --> 00:35:54.884 But, they've got an open season in this one area for Spike Fork, so they've gotta 00:35:54.884 --> 00:35:58.665 have a maximum of two on, uh, on one side. 00:35:59.325 --> 00:36:02.325 And, uh, let's see what we can do. 00:36:02.325 --> 00:36:08.745 And we were putting in long hours trekking through swamps and, uh, recovering tons 00:36:08.745 --> 00:36:11.055 of territory on a, uh, side by side. 00:36:11.055 --> 00:36:13.305 Tons of, tons of territory by foot. 00:36:13.305 --> 00:36:17.295 And anyways, one evening we're driving back to base camp. 00:36:17.819 --> 00:36:20.939 Going out the hill, we're about a half a kilometer away from base camp. 00:36:20.939 --> 00:36:21.720 But what do we see? 00:36:22.500 --> 00:36:27.270 Two moose ske daddling up the road and first thing you go is 00:36:27.270 --> 00:36:28.439 like, holy crow, look at that. 00:36:28.439 --> 00:36:30.359 You look and it's, that's a spike fork. 00:36:30.419 --> 00:36:30.940 It's a legal. 00:36:30.964 --> 00:36:34.140 It's one that it's a legal animal that we are allowed to 00:36:34.169 --> 00:36:35.520 harvest, we're allowed to take. 00:36:35.520 --> 00:36:39.720 And you're looking at this and look at the watch and it's like, nah, 00:36:39.720 --> 00:36:45.645 we're, we're about five minutes after last light can't do it . But for a 00:36:45.645 --> 00:36:49.845 lot of people they would say, who's gonna know ? Nobody's gonna see this. 00:36:49.845 --> 00:36:50.235 Right. 00:36:50.805 --> 00:36:55.695 The problem is you take that and the worst part about these two moose 00:36:55.695 --> 00:36:58.455 was we're we sat down, we look at each other and say, no, it's, it's 00:36:58.455 --> 00:36:59.865 after last light, we can't do it. 00:37:00.645 --> 00:37:01.845 Let's just let 'em skedaddle. 00:37:01.845 --> 00:37:04.305 So we wait and they go around the corner. 00:37:04.634 --> 00:37:07.815 We give 'em about 20 minutes or so, cuz they were kind of going slow. 00:37:08.145 --> 00:37:11.595 We go around the corner there they are still like, they just weren't going and 00:37:11.600 --> 00:37:13.035 we've been searching forever for these. 00:37:13.680 --> 00:37:15.150 But the problem is you go home. 00:37:15.180 --> 00:37:16.650 Are you gonna enjoy that? 00:37:16.650 --> 00:37:19.620 Are you gonna be able to tell that story afterwards around the campfire and 00:37:19.620 --> 00:37:23.500 say, oh, that one time, we were able to shoot those animals after last light. 00:37:23.970 --> 00:37:26.850 Are you gonna, every time you eat it, you're gonna remember the time that 00:37:26.850 --> 00:37:29.250 you were a poacher and not a hunter. 00:37:29.490 --> 00:37:30.569 It's just not worth it. 00:37:32.580 --> 00:37:32.790 Yep. 00:37:33.120 --> 00:37:34.350 You were an ethical hunter, sir. 00:37:35.940 --> 00:37:38.970 Well, there's always gonna be times when those ethics are put to the test, right? 00:37:40.095 --> 00:37:44.234 It's, it's in those moments that you can then turn around afterwards and be proud 00:37:44.234 --> 00:37:48.194 of yourself and share that experience with others and share it with your 00:37:48.194 --> 00:37:54.075 family and your children and, and, uh, hope hopefully that bleeds off in others 00:37:54.080 --> 00:37:58.424 and you build an environment of people who are sharing those same core values. 00:37:58.935 --> 00:38:00.674 What was that saying the other day, Dave? 00:38:01.125 --> 00:38:04.665 Somebody said, you don't convert people by evangelism. 00:38:04.665 --> 00:38:06.944 You convert people by your own behavior. 00:38:07.214 --> 00:38:07.365 Yeah. 00:38:07.424 --> 00:38:09.440 Better to live the sermon than to preach it. 00:38:10.009 --> 00:38:10.680 There it is. 00:38:10.980 --> 00:38:11.490 Yeah. 00:38:12.089 --> 00:38:16.140 What was it Better to what better to live the sermon than to preach it? 00:38:16.770 --> 00:38:17.160 Oh, yeah. 00:38:17.520 --> 00:38:24.120 I, I a thousand percent believe that the example is the best 00:38:24.120 --> 00:38:25.650 way of leadership, right? 00:38:26.310 --> 00:38:31.109 Everyone has that rules for thee or, or he rules for you, but not for thee. 00:38:31.109 --> 00:38:35.040 And yeah, when they talk about politicians, the ones that we truly 00:38:35.040 --> 00:38:38.879 admire and truly respect are the ones who will actually walk the walk. 00:38:39.299 --> 00:38:43.620 And they will do what they say and maybe not so much out there 00:38:43.620 --> 00:38:46.140 preaching to everyone else, telling them what's up and how to do it. 00:38:46.140 --> 00:38:48.510 But you can see through their example that they're living the 00:38:48.510 --> 00:38:50.010 lifestyle that you aspire to. 00:38:51.390 --> 00:38:56.310 That's a, that's one of the things in this book that, uh, I would imagine would 00:38:56.315 --> 00:39:00.240 be a difficult thing because if you're coming across as an authority and you're 00:39:00.240 --> 00:39:06.570 trying to provide the information, is to walk that delicate tightrope of telling 00:39:06.570 --> 00:39:08.510 people what's up with a wagging finger 00:39:08.860 --> 00:39:11.880 and laying out information on the table for them to be 00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:13.110 able to make a decision from. 00:39:14.550 --> 00:39:15.330 Actually, it's pretty easy. 00:39:15.990 --> 00:39:17.730 Well, I think you guys made it look easy. 00:39:18.300 --> 00:39:24.270 We, we went through a voyage of discovery and, and if you remember your own voyage, 00:39:24.300 --> 00:39:28.950 it's very much easier to tell the story in a way that other people can share 00:39:28.950 --> 00:39:32.730 your voyage rather than you telling them where they have to moor the boat. 00:39:33.180 --> 00:39:33.780 Mm. 00:39:34.560 --> 00:39:41.220 . So when we look at hunting and over in North America, this is predominantly, 00:39:41.220 --> 00:39:45.420 there's a term that a, another fellow runs a business here in Vancouver. 00:39:45.420 --> 00:39:50.290 He taught me about, he calls 'em "GOWD's" G O W D's I'm like, what is a GOWD? 00:39:50.310 --> 00:39:52.680 He's like, it's a grumpy old white dude, right? 00:39:54.290 --> 00:39:59.310 And that's the stereotypical hunter of the past is this grumpy old white dude. 00:39:59.310 --> 00:40:00.720 Like, you can't come on this area. 00:40:00.725 --> 00:40:01.680 This is my land. 00:40:02.535 --> 00:40:03.134 My area. 00:40:03.134 --> 00:40:04.634 I've been hunting it all this time. 00:40:04.634 --> 00:40:08.654 And, um, they're trying to take away my rights and they're trying to, 00:40:08.654 --> 00:40:12.945 and there's a, there's this negative connotation associated with hunting 00:40:12.945 --> 00:40:17.685 by a lot of anti-hunters and, and new people getting into hunting as well. 00:40:17.685 --> 00:40:21.375 There's a barrier to entry and one thing that I was talking about with 00:40:21.375 --> 00:40:24.705 the executive director of the Wildlife Federation in the podcast that just 00:40:24.705 --> 00:40:30.375 released recently was how the face of hunting is changing and the demographics 00:40:30.375 --> 00:40:35.415 are changing and the way that we are able to incorporate traditional belief 00:40:35.415 --> 00:40:41.895 systems and values into all of those who are getting in, who come from different 00:40:41.895 --> 00:40:43.845 backgrounds and different ways of life. 00:40:44.205 --> 00:40:50.075 And I think the future of hunting as it's being approached currently is actually 00:40:50.080 --> 00:40:54.814 looking pretty optimistic , but I'd be curious, after all of the research 00:40:54.819 --> 00:40:58.274 you've done in "On Hunting", what does the future of hunting look like to you? 00:41:01.455 --> 00:41:07.845 I think there's, there's enough biological or biologists out there who are, are, who 00:41:07.845 --> 00:41:09.674 are preaching the importance of hunting. 00:41:09.680 --> 00:41:12.285 I think it's got, uh, it's got legs yet. 00:41:12.944 --> 00:41:16.665 Um, I don't think the, the greens are, uh, and anti hunters. 00:41:18.105 --> 00:41:22.395 Are, are loud enough yet or to, to take that away from us? 00:41:22.395 --> 00:41:24.194 I think it has, it has a future. 00:41:24.645 --> 00:41:27.975 I think it'll continue for, you know, generations yet. 00:41:29.984 --> 00:41:33.585 And that might be me wishful thinking, but I think that's . I I 00:41:33.585 --> 00:41:37.935 also am very hopeful that we'll vote Trudeau out to Mexico around too. 00:41:37.935 --> 00:41:41.955 And so if we just, if we just think positively enough about it 00:41:41.955 --> 00:41:43.665 all, it just may come to pass. 00:41:44.685 --> 00:41:47.370 Well, you and the majority of other Canadians according 00:41:47.370 --> 00:41:48.690 to recent polls or teeth. 00:41:48.740 --> 00:41:48.940 Yes. 00:41:48.945 --> 00:41:49.230 Yes. 00:41:49.230 --> 00:41:50.460 Thank goodness. 00:41:50.490 --> 00:41:54.720 And I see that the liberals are, I I did, go ahead, Linda. 00:41:56.250 --> 00:42:01.890 I did a lot of research, uh, of, um, trends around the world and what I found 00:42:01.895 --> 00:42:05.010 now, it was hard to get really recent numbers because we were in the middle 00:42:05.015 --> 00:42:08.730 of a pandemic and nobody was doing anything, including gathering stats. 00:42:08.730 --> 00:42:11.165 They were busy taking care of the home fires. 00:42:11.815 --> 00:42:19.500 But, um, the trend since certainly the early 2010s or so, has been for 00:42:19.500 --> 00:42:25.650 hunting numbers to be increasing in most areas around the world, and for 00:42:25.654 --> 00:42:31.350 the percentage of females hunting to be increasing Now, it, there's a huge 00:42:31.350 --> 00:42:35.880 barrier to entry for women, and it's not, it's not what you might think, it's 00:42:35.880 --> 00:42:37.890 that they don't know how to get started. 00:42:38.130 --> 00:42:39.800 They don't know where to go to get started. 00:42:40.250 --> 00:42:42.750 So we do have some suggestions in the book. 00:42:43.110 --> 00:42:45.660 There are some universities running courses. 00:42:45.990 --> 00:42:50.549 There are, um, in fact, one of our dear friends just started hunting 00:42:50.970 --> 00:42:52.830 by going and getting a guided hunt. 00:42:52.890 --> 00:42:54.390 Now it was for Turkey. 00:42:54.540 --> 00:42:59.520 It wasn't an expensive hunt, but it, it gave her an opportunity to, to be 00:42:59.520 --> 00:43:02.820 schooled in some of the ways of hunting that you don't, you don't necessarily 00:43:02.820 --> 00:43:06.600 get from reading a book or trying to figure out what your granddad might 00:43:06.600 --> 00:43:07.970 have been doing with that old gun. 00:43:08.600 --> 00:43:10.785 So I think there's a, a lot of hope. 00:43:10.815 --> 00:43:15.345 I honestly, in complete candor and humility, think that the On Hunting 00:43:15.345 --> 00:43:20.295 book will give support to those people so that they'll see that, yeah, I'm, 00:43:20.295 --> 00:43:22.155 I'm part of a growing community here. 00:43:22.155 --> 00:43:23.745 I'm, I'm not a freak. 00:43:24.075 --> 00:43:28.995 Uh, this is really something that's right for people to do and, and really right 00:43:28.995 --> 00:43:31.065 for women to do, to get involved in. 00:43:31.070 --> 00:43:33.755 So I, I'm also optimistic. 00:43:35.205 --> 00:43:36.194 I think it's interesting. 00:43:36.254 --> 00:43:43.694 Linda talked about some of, if not the, Linda talked about a, uh, an 00:43:43.694 --> 00:43:47.805 anti-hunter online and he said, well, I support the World Wildlife 00:43:47.805 --> 00:43:49.845 Foundation and I contribute to them. 00:43:49.845 --> 00:43:54.645 And, but guess what, uh, they support hunting as a part of conservation 00:43:55.365 --> 00:43:56.775 and, uh, and that's a victory. 00:43:56.935 --> 00:43:57.335 Mm-hmm. 00:43:57.435 --> 00:44:01.695 , that their, their official position supports hunting is part of conservation. 00:44:01.695 --> 00:44:03.405 You know, you, I got the little stuff. 00:44:03.405 --> 00:44:03.915 Panda. 00:44:03.915 --> 00:44:09.165 Panda, you know, and I, I support the animals and, and WWF is that right? 00:44:09.225 --> 00:44:09.765 Is that right? 00:44:09.855 --> 00:44:11.930 Uh, Linda, I get that. 00:44:11.930 --> 00:44:12.190 Yeah. 00:44:12.860 --> 00:44:16.905 WWF, I didn't realize that they were supporters of hunting. 00:44:17.475 --> 00:44:17.985 Yes. 00:44:18.825 --> 00:44:19.125 Yep. 00:44:19.305 --> 00:44:23.415 They, they aren't as noisy about it the last couple of years as they 00:44:23.415 --> 00:44:27.275 have been in the past, but they have stood with hunting and hunters. 00:44:27.665 --> 00:44:29.880 Because they see what the economics are. 00:44:30.630 --> 00:44:35.370 The money comes from the hunters and the animals benefit and they, they get 00:44:35.370 --> 00:44:37.500 that cuz that's what their mission is. 00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:43.560 I, I think from a societal standpoint, when we looked at the last few years going 00:44:43.560 --> 00:44:48.300 through the covid, lockdowns and pandemic and all the rest, that, that associated 00:44:48.300 --> 00:44:56.070 with that there was a, uh, a rekindled fire in people to want to get outdoors. 00:44:56.430 --> 00:45:02.490 To wanna learn some traditional skills to be self-sufficient to, and that 00:45:02.490 --> 00:45:06.839 combined with the movement, the food movement of knowing where your food 00:45:06.839 --> 00:45:08.970 comes from, local sustainable food. 00:45:08.970 --> 00:45:15.870 And I think the pendulum of moving away from hunting, I think the 00:45:15.870 --> 00:45:19.860 pendulum is starting to swing a bit because people are having a difficult 00:45:19.865 --> 00:45:22.109 time trusting where their food. 00:45:22.680 --> 00:45:26.490 Uh, the chemicals that might be used and how the farms are, are, uh, 00:45:26.550 --> 00:45:30.300 treating the animals that they might be getting and they're looking at the 00:45:30.810 --> 00:45:35.100 hunting for more than just that one split second when the trigger is pulled 00:45:35.105 --> 00:45:39.810 or the arrow is let, loose hunting is everything that surrounds that. 00:45:39.810 --> 00:45:43.410 It's a lifestyle of being in tune with the nature of being in tune with the 00:45:43.410 --> 00:45:47.400 animals, of being in tune with the seasons that are, and there's a very 00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:51.785 natural part to the human condition that I think is drawn towards that. 00:45:52.125 --> 00:45:54.375 I think we're moving away from this. 00:45:54.585 --> 00:45:57.794 Everything comes in processed food and where here's one pill you could 00:45:57.794 --> 00:46:00.134 take a day and you get all your vitamins and nutrients from it. 00:46:00.555 --> 00:46:04.694 And I think people are realizing the sort of spiritual side of just 00:46:04.700 --> 00:46:08.805 being out and communing with nature that's associated with hunting. 00:46:08.865 --> 00:46:12.884 And most people will never, if they haven't hunted, will not 00:46:12.884 --> 00:46:17.325 experience the range of emotions and connectedness to their natural 00:46:17.325 --> 00:46:19.450 environment like those who do hunt. 00:46:21.509 --> 00:46:22.359 100%. 00:46:22.730 --> 00:46:23.029 Amen. 00:46:23.900 --> 00:46:26.850 There's a quote that you guys have in the book that I really liked. 00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:28.830 Let me see if I can pull that up really quick. 00:46:29.550 --> 00:46:32.130 And it's, um, yeah, here it is. 00:46:32.130 --> 00:46:35.850 It says, one of the delights of hunting is getting mentally 00:46:35.850 --> 00:46:37.740 and emotionally lost in nature. 00:46:38.070 --> 00:46:41.010 It is a total absorption in the present moment. 00:46:41.520 --> 00:46:45.480 The reality of everyday anxiety fades and the hunter becomes 00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:47.180 immersed in the natural world. 00:46:47.910 --> 00:46:50.790 He feels connected to something much bigger than himself. 00:46:51.780 --> 00:46:53.250 Can you guys talk a bit more on that? 00:46:53.250 --> 00:46:54.360 Like, what is that to you? 00:46:55.890 --> 00:46:57.780 That's, that's what it's all about. 00:46:58.290 --> 00:47:02.850 That's the hunter who goes out on the first day of the season, sees his, 00:47:03.180 --> 00:47:06.870 the kind of animal that is perfect for him to take and doesn't take 00:47:06.870 --> 00:47:11.100 it because he doesn't want the hunt to be over in less than 24 hours. 00:47:11.340 --> 00:47:15.830 He wants to hold onto that feeling for as long as he can. 00:47:16.200 --> 00:47:20.850 and, and yes, get his game animal if he can, but it's being there 00:47:20.850 --> 00:47:25.259 for that feeling that puts him in the bush and keeps him coming back. 00:47:26.910 --> 00:47:32.130 Uh, I think I agree with, I agree with Linda, although there certainly has been 00:47:32.130 --> 00:47:36.540 times when I have spent lots and lots of cold, wet, miserable days out there and 00:47:36.750 --> 00:47:42.870 not seen anything, um, that I am sometimes fearful not to take the first one. 00:47:43.470 --> 00:47:45.375 Uh, the first good one that comes along. 00:47:45.645 --> 00:47:49.904 You know, the old saying, yep, don't bypass, uh, on the first day, the 00:47:49.904 --> 00:47:51.435 one you'd take on the last day. 00:47:52.005 --> 00:47:53.775 Uh, so there is, there is that to it. 00:47:53.775 --> 00:47:57.884 But, but certainly being out, being out in the wilderness, being out in 00:47:57.884 --> 00:48:02.685 the bushes, I've often said I get a much more spiritual, uh, feeling, 00:48:03.134 --> 00:48:07.425 um, being out in the bush than I ever did when my grandmother used to drag 00:48:07.425 --> 00:48:12.325 me to church and make me sit in the, in the shadow of, of stained glass. 00:48:12.634 --> 00:48:13.964 And hard back seats. 00:48:14.415 --> 00:48:15.665 Um, if mm-hmm. 00:48:15.834 --> 00:48:20.714 , if I could, if I, I really like the, the religion that the, that 00:48:20.714 --> 00:48:24.225 the natives had where everything had a spirit out in the bush. 00:48:24.794 --> 00:48:27.884 Uh, and, uh, and that's, that's where I'm most at, certainly 00:48:27.884 --> 00:48:29.174 most at peace out there. 00:48:31.694 --> 00:48:32.924 You know, I think, how about you, Dave. 00:48:33.345 --> 00:48:33.495 Yeah. 00:48:33.495 --> 00:48:38.234 One of the, one of the pathologies of modern life is thinking 00:48:38.234 --> 00:48:39.545 that you don't have to kill. 00:48:39.545 --> 00:48:43.485 you're taking yourself out of the natural cycle of life. 00:48:43.755 --> 00:48:45.495 It's a, it's a deep pathology. 00:48:46.065 --> 00:48:47.805 Well, you know, I, I'm a, I'm vegan. 00:48:47.835 --> 00:48:54.345 Well, we exterminate billions of rats and mice around the graineries every year. 00:48:55.005 --> 00:48:58.005 Otherwise, they would get in the graineries and they would reproduce 00:48:58.125 --> 00:49:00.075 exponentially, and we would all starve. 00:49:00.645 --> 00:49:04.965 Your body right now is killing millions of microorganisms. 00:49:05.145 --> 00:49:08.595 When you stop doing that, your body rots and dies. 00:49:09.225 --> 00:49:13.725 to live is to kill and to think that you don't have to kill because you buy it 00:49:13.725 --> 00:49:18.735 packaged in this store or you, you get it secondhand and just, I'm a vegan, right? 00:49:18.735 --> 00:49:23.235 But all of these creatures had to die and all of this, this piece of land had 00:49:23.240 --> 00:49:28.904 to be turned into farmland so that you could be a vegan yet to live is to kill. 00:49:29.505 --> 00:49:33.495 And, and, and so hunters are in two, you said, oh, I can be 00:49:33.495 --> 00:49:34.935 spiritual, I can be in the woods. 00:49:34.935 --> 00:49:35.665 I can identify. 00:49:35.665 --> 00:49:36.065 No. 00:49:36.785 --> 00:49:40.004 If you're not part of that cycle of life, and that's one of the things that 00:49:40.004 --> 00:49:44.535 Linda has nailed over and over again, if you're not part of that cycle of life, 00:49:44.774 --> 00:49:51.044 if and hunters truly understand death, that that deer died so I can live and I 00:49:51.049 --> 00:49:53.654 will die and I will be warm food someday. 00:49:54.105 --> 00:49:54.915 And that's okay. 00:49:55.365 --> 00:49:57.225 You know, one of the things that, that anti, well, how 00:49:57.225 --> 00:49:58.555 would you like to be eaten? 00:49:58.560 --> 00:50:03.464 Well, you will be . You, you just don't know it. 00:50:06.570 --> 00:50:08.790 Something's gonna consume you, right? 00:50:09.390 --> 00:50:09.810 Ashes. 00:50:09.810 --> 00:50:11.520 Ashes dusted dust you miss. 00:50:13.170 --> 00:50:20.010 Um, what would you guys view as a success for this book once it's 00:50:20.010 --> 00:50:24.510 done, you know, number of copies sold, uh, messages received. 00:50:24.510 --> 00:50:24.780 What? 00:50:25.080 --> 00:50:27.030 What would be the ultimate success? 00:50:27.450 --> 00:50:31.350 Once this book is out into the general public for you, I think 00:50:31.350 --> 00:50:35.880 if we could get more people, uh, thinking the way our sound engineer, 00:50:36.330 --> 00:50:41.640 um, has, where he is a non hunter, he's certainly not against hunting. 00:50:41.640 --> 00:50:42.690 He's just didn't do it. 00:50:43.350 --> 00:50:50.640 Uh, and, uh, he ex explained to us in, in incredibly wonderful terms 00:50:50.660 --> 00:50:52.380 just what this book has done for him. 00:50:52.380 --> 00:50:53.590 And, and he listened to it. 00:50:54.270 --> 00:50:58.305 , he got emotional at the, at the, the parts that, uh, we intended 00:50:58.695 --> 00:51:00.075 people to get emotional at. 00:51:00.075 --> 00:51:04.425 And, and he absorbed that book and, uh, it has turned him around. 00:51:04.425 --> 00:51:08.685 And I think if we could get, and Linda mentioned that crowd before, 00:51:09.405 --> 00:51:13.815 uh, the non-hunters, uh, is a much bigger group than either 00:51:13.905 --> 00:51:15.705 the anti hunters or the hunters. 00:51:16.095 --> 00:51:19.755 And if we get more people of the non-hunting to, uh, read that 00:51:19.755 --> 00:51:22.165 book and just simply understand where we're coming from. 00:51:22.435 --> 00:51:25.335 Uh, I think that would be a, a great, great success. 00:51:25.335 --> 00:51:27.765 Just, just more of what Rick did. 00:51:29.205 --> 00:51:29.475 Yep. 00:51:29.475 --> 00:51:30.255 I agree with that. 00:51:30.315 --> 00:51:34.815 Uh, one of the fellas that kindly read through the manuscript told was right 00:51:34.815 --> 00:51:40.845 near the last draft, um, who's a non hunter, uh, but a very meticulous person. 00:51:40.850 --> 00:51:47.055 He read through it and he came back and said, you could call this book on 00:51:47.055 --> 00:51:51.875 humans instead of on hunting, because it's really about every one of us. 00:51:52.314 --> 00:51:56.220 And every person that reads it, that comes away with that in their mind. 00:51:57.149 --> 00:51:58.049 Success. 00:51:59.490 --> 00:52:04.439 You know, Travis, I, uh, I co opted a book on gun control with Glen Beck. 00:52:04.890 --> 00:52:07.379 They're called Control the Truth About Guns. 00:52:07.919 --> 00:52:13.919 New York Times Bestseller, not one single review, nobody nowhere. 00:52:14.350 --> 00:52:16.230 They just give it zero oxygen. 00:52:16.980 --> 00:52:22.110 And, and if, if, and the point is that we've gotta have hunters that are 00:52:22.110 --> 00:52:24.000 inflicting this book on non-hunters. 00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:28.500 We've gotta create a buzz, we've gotta create an energy, and we've got 00:52:28.500 --> 00:52:32.220 this tool that we can place in their hands, but they've got the turnaround. 00:52:32.640 --> 00:52:34.740 And, uh, and, and have your kids read it. 00:52:34.740 --> 00:52:36.480 Have your, your relative read it. 00:52:36.485 --> 00:52:38.670 Uh uh, and, and we gotta get through that. 00:52:38.670 --> 00:52:41.490 You know, when, when you write about hunting, when you write about 00:52:41.490 --> 00:52:46.260 guns, they will automatically censor it and they give it zero oxygen. 00:52:46.710 --> 00:52:49.050 So all the hunters out there and all the people. 00:52:49.635 --> 00:52:52.035 Who love our way of life and understand what this's about. 00:52:52.425 --> 00:52:57.015 They've got to become, you know, they've gotta become missionaries, you know, 00:52:57.015 --> 00:52:59.745 and, uh, uh, you know, it's, it's, oh, you're preaching to the choir. 00:52:59.745 --> 00:53:02.955 Well, you're preaching to the choir, you get missionaries, you know, so let's 00:53:02.955 --> 00:53:07.965 go out there and, you know, evangelize for our faith, which is, is as, uh, 00:53:07.965 --> 00:53:11.685 as Keith said is, is out there in the forest being a part of that food cycle. 00:53:11.865 --> 00:53:16.765 And this is the tool that you can use to, to, to make that transition. 00:53:17.279 --> 00:53:22.890 For, to be the, the, the evangelists, the, the missionary that will take our, 00:53:22.890 --> 00:53:28.080 our, our faith and, and our beliefs and put it in the hands of others so they 00:53:28.080 --> 00:53:30.360 understand it and embrace that dynamic. 00:53:30.630 --> 00:53:34.890 And it truly will bring you deeper into understand of humanity even if you never 00:53:34.890 --> 00:53:36.720 hunt, even if you never have hunted. 00:53:37.095 --> 00:53:42.615 This book will give you far, far deeper understanding of our humanity, who we are, 00:53:42.615 --> 00:53:44.655 what we do, and our place in the world. 00:53:44.955 --> 00:53:49.515 So success would be all those hunters out there grabbing this book and, and 00:53:49.515 --> 00:53:54.165 creating buzz about it, and talking on Facebook and talking online and, and 00:53:54.165 --> 00:53:56.295 wonderful, wonderful podcasts like yours. 00:53:56.595 --> 00:53:58.695 Now, picking up on this and help us get the word out. 00:54:00.825 --> 00:54:04.755 You know, as you're talking there, I get this image of people not in white 00:54:04.755 --> 00:54:09.150 shirts and black ties but dressed up in camouflage two by two, going through 00:54:09.150 --> 00:54:10.500 neighborhoods, knocking on doors. 00:54:10.500 --> 00:54:11.979 Have you heard the good word? 00:54:12.420 --> 00:54:13.069 . Hold it. 00:54:13.069 --> 00:54:13.629 Hold it up. 00:54:14.740 --> 00:54:15.990 Hold it up On Hunting. 00:54:17.520 --> 00:54:18.359 That's outstanding. 00:54:20.370 --> 00:54:22.890 Maybe they won't get the door slammed in their faces often. 00:54:26.609 --> 00:54:27.420 Oh man. 00:54:28.200 --> 00:54:31.440 Is there anything that we should be talking about that we haven't already 00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:33.359 talked about before we wrap things up? 00:54:35.040 --> 00:54:36.000 I think we've. 00:54:38.460 --> 00:54:38.940 Okay. 00:54:39.420 --> 00:54:43.080 Well, I tell you what, I'm gonna make sure we have links to where people 00:54:43.080 --> 00:54:46.230 can buy the book, where they can find out more information on the book. 00:54:46.235 --> 00:54:48.060 We'll put this, it's gonna be up on YouTube. 00:54:48.060 --> 00:54:49.620 It'll be up on the podcast. 00:54:50.430 --> 00:54:51.780 Linda, Keith. 00:54:51.930 --> 00:54:55.920 Dave, thank you so very much for taking the time to write this book 00:54:55.980 --> 00:54:59.430 and for taking the time to be on the Silver Core podcast to talk about it. 00:54:59.760 --> 00:55:00.360 Appreciate it. 00:55:01.800 --> 00:55:02.790 Thank you, Travis. 00:55:03.330 --> 00:55:08.330 Thank you Travis, for all you do, Amen.