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Hey folks, WWDC 2025 is just
around the corner and I'll be

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in the Cupertino area again.

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I've got a jam packed schedule
planned for WWDC week.

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You'll find me out one more thing or
community kit, two of the best community

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events that are happening that week.

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But I especially wanna let you
know that on Monday, June 9th at

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4:00 PM Pacific, I'll be recording
a very special milestone episode.

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We're hitting our 200th episode
of Empower Apps at Community Kit.

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We'll be talking about everything
announced at the keynote and

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the State of the Union, and I
may have a very special guest.

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Be sure to sign up as space is limited.

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The link is provided in our show notes.

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I will be also hosting panels and
helping folks with server side swift

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questions at one more thing and even
doing a live demo of Bushel at the

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CommunityKit Indie Fair on Wednesday.

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Speaking of bushel, version 2.1 is
out and to celebrate both the new

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release and WWDC, I'll be offering a
50% off annual subscriptions for new

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customers till the end of WWDC Week.

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So definitely take advantage
of this as soon as you can.

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There's never been a better time to
streamline your workflow with Bushel

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Links to all these events and more
will be in the show notes below.

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Thank you for joining me and I hope
you enjoy today's episode with Peter.

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Welcome to another
episode of Empower Apps.

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I'm your host, Leo Dion.

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Today I am joined by Peter Witham.

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Once again, Peter, thank you for making
your 400th appearance on the show.

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And I only look a day over 38.

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This true.

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For people who don't, listen to this
podcast, I'll let you introduce yourself.

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thank you Leo having me back again.

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Always look forward to
this and chatting with you.

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Yeah, my name's Peter Winham.

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I am primarily an iOS developer,
although I also work with Android and

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React native, but Swift is my thing
'cause I have the Compile Swift,

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podcast is what I'm primarily known for.

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Shout out to my co-host on that, Jeff.

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So yeah, that's probably where folks
have heard my, weird Texas accent before.

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Texas accent.

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I like it.

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For people who, are subscribed to the
newsletter and follow me on social, I

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will be in California once again for WWDC.

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There's a bunch of events going on,
including leading a panel and giving

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a talk and talking about Bushel.

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But I will be recording a special
200th episode live from Community Kit.

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You'll definitely want to check that
out since Peter won't be available.

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I figure now's as good of a time as
ever to go over the year and what

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we're thinking when it comes to WWDC.

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I will also post a link to all the
stuff so you can register there as well.

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It's been a heck of a year, like in
the Apple space, where do we begin?

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Not all good stuff and I feel like I went
over this in my year review of stuff that

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I'm, I was worried about and it feels
like it all it's all come to a head.

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Yeah.

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What's your thoughts about it?

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Doesn't It has been a very
up and down year, I think

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Since the last, dub dc right?

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So many things we could
cover in both directions.

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I guess the one that stands out the
most and, we'll get into the topics,

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but, the fouled promises maybe of
AI that never really happened yet.

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And things like this, but I feel like
it's not been one of the best years

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for Apple and not necessarily all
their fault as we'll probably get into.

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But yeah, it's been a tough one.

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Are you surprised by the AI stuff

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I am.

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The way Gruber described it, it's like
they never really demoed anything.

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Is it that surprising or
what part of you is shocked,

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Yeah.

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I think, I'm always one of those
people who, hey, whoever the company

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is, but especially Apple, don't
give it to us until it's ready.

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And so therefore, if they don't feel
it's ready, It's better to suffer

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the brief beating that you get from
saying something will be here and

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then putting it all over the website
and then, pulling it back again.

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And I do feel that folks have
been a little unfair, They

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did give us something, right?

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Not everything that it should have been.

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And, hey, is that better than giving us
something that was a complete disaster?

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There's that side that says.

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Siri was never that great to begin with.

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Could it really have been any worse?

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I'll take what I've got.

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I have been using some of the
stuff on the Mac, for example.

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Like what?

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services have been pretty good.

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Especially for folks like ourselves where
it's okay, gimme a quick summary of this

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document for podcast notes and things
like that, i'm not expecting miracles

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and I feel it was okay, but I think it
was the fact that it was really sold to

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us as, Hey, this is really gonna bring
your iPhone, your watch, those other

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platforms to life in a whole new way.

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And it didn't,

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the iPhone 16, that was the selling

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Yeah.

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I had the clip of, Snoop and Jason Mahomes
trying to sell you an iPhone 16 with ai.

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Yeah, like they really pushed it.

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And you're right.

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I don't think, I don't think that those
folks out there, who are putting these,

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lawsuits together about, Hey, I bought
this because of this and it didn't happen.

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It's we all know Apple's
got a lot of lawyers.

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Good luck with that.

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Because there is that thing of
they made you want to have it, but

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they didn't force you to get it.

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They just made you want it, which
is what Apple is excellent at.

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Yeah.

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it seems like it's a big hurdle for
them to get where every, I like, I

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don't know what tools you use, but
I've been using Claude and cursor

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quite a bit and they're a great fit.

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I don't know how Apple is gonna be
able to compete with that, it almost

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feels like too late in a lot of ways,
for them to get into that space.

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it

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Now there's rumors that they're
gonna provide SDKs for some

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models, but I dunno, I'm we'll see.

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Also, will we get it in the
version zero or will we have to

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wait till version two and yada.

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Yeah.

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We never get anything in version zero.

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Version zero is just the,
police holder for the installer.

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But I agree with you.

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Apple.

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Has to get it right next time is what
it comes down to in simple terms.

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And it's interesting because
you mentioned about the SDKs.

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I was thinking about this the other
day, is this Apple's way of saying, we

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couldn't deliver so far on the promise,
but if we open it up, we're sharing that

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responsibility with the developers, right?

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Maybe you can do it better than we
can, which I feel like is a smart thing

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That's what they should do at this point,

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'cause I'm with you.

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I don't think they'll cash
up with everybody else.

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They certainly won't, go
speed ahead of everybody.

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Not now, but the best they can hope
for is to catch up and continue to use

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their platforms to push their services.

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Which is what it comes down to.

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Yep.

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Yeah, and we know, like they've been
doing a lot with private cloud compute.

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They talked about that actually at
the server side Swift conference

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and how that's a big deal.

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So I'm curious to see how
they might let developers plug

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into that and be able to take

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I think that is the one area where Apple
does have a better chance than anybody

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getting ahead of everybody else in the
sense of, maybe their, marketing spin

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should be, your privacy still comes first.

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That has been a big selling point
that they've tried to spearhead,

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absolutely.

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I'd use them, if they'd have, I was
all excited to use these services and

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that, and like I say, I've not been
disappointed with what I got, just that

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I didn't get everything I was hoping for,

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we did talk about Siri, so yeah, I'm
not expecting anything outta Siri

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Yeah.

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speaking of, things that they keep
trying to fix, iPad OS supposedly

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is gonna have a redesign this year.

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I just, I don't know what they're
trying to do with the iPad.

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I don't think I'm the
target audience for it.

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I wish it was what I want
it to be, but it just isn't.

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What's your thoughts on the redesign?

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It really does depend what
they mean by redesign for me.

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they're looking at redesigning everything,

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yeah, there's the visual

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to go with a vision

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And, like with everything Apple,
usually when they, redesign these

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things, It's nice, I like it.

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It is still something they're very
good at as far as redesigning, iPad os

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functionally, I use my iPad every day.

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of course I'm a developer, It's not a
replacement for my Mac and that is not

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anything I expected it to be But the
one thing that greatly disappoints me

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is every time I plug in an external
display to my iPad and it's okay, I

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got another big iPad on the screen.

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What value is that to me?

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And a lot of that does fall, I think, to
developers of third party apps because

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it depends how they use that experience.

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The I'm not gonna name and shame or
anything like that, but there are

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some that are like, Hey, you tried.

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It's pretty good.

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And there are others that are.

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pretty terrible, so I don't need a big
iPad display, so I guess for me, I need,

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what do you use your iPad for?

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Yeah, engineering manager
by trade is my thing.

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So it's a lot of the management
type things, classic example

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is, the web browsers open a lot,

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And it's handy, I'm one of
those unfortunate people.

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I have to use teams every day and, greatly

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Yeah.

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Welcome to

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Yeah.

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So it's great, let iPad handle teams
and Outlook and all that stuff, right?

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That's a good idea.

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That's what that's for.

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Primarily, and it's because I'm used
to full screen apps at this point.

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That's cool.

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But I'd like windowed apps when
I plug in external display,

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I think like for me, what burns me
out about the iPad is just like.

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You have to have the
app in the foreground.

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Like copy and pasting
between stuff is really hard.

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Like compared with the ability I
have to use my mouse and be able

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to drag stuff around on the Mac.

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Like I just lose a lot of

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That's,

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it makes it really difficult.

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that's why I want multiple windows, like
true multitasking, which I know isn't,

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it depends how you want to interpret.

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What multitasking is.

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To me, multitasking is, like
you said, multiple windows.

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It, it's the Mac experience for me.

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The you hit on a really good
example of pane, actually.

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The, the copy and the paste, and
that kind of feels like stage

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manager, that thing that I never use.

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And immediately turn off on everything
was isn't this just a fancy clipboard?

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Because it feels like that,

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So I bought myself one of
these portable monitors.

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Oh, how do

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you seen these before?

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Yeah.

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50 bucks, at Best Buy.

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And I was like, let's see what happens
when I hook this up to my iPhone.

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You can't even do it in portrait mode,
even though the iPhone is portrait,

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it displays it like portrait, but in
the middle of the landscape display.

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it only works if the iPhone is in
landscape and then it fills up the screen.

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'cause it's oh, I wonder if I could take
my iPhone to a coffee shop with a display

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and a keyboard and just start writing.

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I was just curious and yeah, it's like
stuff like those paper cuts that like,

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yeah.

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Make the experience

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I had read these reports about,
these possible enhancements

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to using an external display.

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And I got excited too.

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I'm like.

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Oh, great.

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00:12:09,586 --> 00:12:12,676
'cause I remember years ago, I can't
think of who made it, maybe it was

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Motorola, there was that phone that
you could put in the back of a dock.

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It was like the Nintendo Switch thing.

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You put the phone in and then
boom, you got a computer.

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So I was like, if I
could do that'd be great.

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But yeah, you nail the problem,
which is okay, there's always

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something that makes it not work.

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And I get it.

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It's not necessarily Apple's fault, but
it is because with these huge phones,

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it's not a priority.

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Of all the apps that I can think of that
I can use in landscape mode, fraction of

235
00:12:43,196 --> 00:12:45,866
them, and certainly not the home screen.

236
00:12:45,866 --> 00:12:49,646
My gosh, I used to love having
my iPhone in landscape mode.

237
00:12:49,696 --> 00:12:50,296
I remember that.

238
00:12:50,355 --> 00:12:50,985
What's the deal?

239
00:12:51,195 --> 00:12:51,555
Yeah.

240
00:12:52,471 --> 00:12:54,601
I was gonna say something,
but of course I forgot.

241
00:12:54,711 --> 00:12:58,311
I don't know what their
plan is for the new design.

242
00:12:58,371 --> 00:13:05,381
that goes to, the other big topic I
wanted to talk about that I've actually

243
00:13:05,381 --> 00:13:09,551
started looking into how to implement
this properly in bushel, but we're

244
00:13:09,551 --> 00:13:15,621
gonna get possibly year based version
numbers, which I find interesting.

245
00:13:15,621 --> 00:13:19,641
It's a little bit odd
to do that for Gear 20.

246
00:13:20,031 --> 00:13:24,961
26. But, the idea would be is
that this stepped WC everything is

247
00:13:24,961 --> 00:13:27,521
gonna be version 26 for next year.

248
00:13:27,621 --> 00:13:30,891
there might even be a rumor that they
might do that for the iPhones this year.

249
00:13:30,891 --> 00:13:31,461
We'll see.

250
00:13:32,031 --> 00:13:35,511
I think the iPhone more
than the OSS need to.

251
00:13:36,591 --> 00:13:39,381
It's weird at this point
going with 17, 18, 19.

252
00:13:39,431 --> 00:13:40,661
yeah, what do you think of that?

253
00:13:41,450 --> 00:13:43,640
This came up pretty recently, right?

254
00:13:43,690 --> 00:13:47,020
And immediately I thought,
okay, this is a good idea.

255
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:52,480
And then I was like, oh, but that means
we will miss out on the iPhone 20.

256
00:13:53,110 --> 00:13:55,300
And doesn't that just
have a nice ring to it?

257
00:13:55,400 --> 00:14:00,710
We had the iPhone X, the iPhone 10,
whichever camp you want to be in.

258
00:14:01,101 --> 00:14:02,421
We also missed out on iPhone

259
00:14:02,630 --> 00:14:03,440
Oh yeah, that's true.

260
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,890
So it's like what, it's like they don't
want to commit to these wonderfully

261
00:14:06,890 --> 00:14:13,220
magical numbers, but I'm actually
in favor of the idea of the year

262
00:14:13,610 --> 00:14:18,855
because, like so many of the tools,
we use and now use the year number.

263
00:14:19,155 --> 00:14:24,375
But it does, you're right in that
it also struck me, this doesn't

264
00:14:24,375 --> 00:14:28,585
really work, it's because the way
the cycles work, here we are in

265
00:14:28,585 --> 00:14:31,565
2025, dub DC just around the corner.

266
00:14:31,565 --> 00:14:32,855
We are gonna get the new versions.

267
00:14:32,855 --> 00:14:34,655
We all know this, right?

268
00:14:34,805 --> 00:14:37,925
We're gonna call 'em 26 'cause
we'll get them in the fall.

269
00:14:39,065 --> 00:14:39,395
Okay.

270
00:14:39,395 --> 00:14:40,505
That does that.

271
00:14:40,505 --> 00:14:41,105
That's okay.

272
00:14:41,105 --> 00:14:41,975
That kind of makes sense.

273
00:14:41,975 --> 00:14:45,125
'cause we know we're getting
to see it way ahead of time.

274
00:14:45,425 --> 00:14:48,615
But the perspective of the
hardware, it feels a little bit

275
00:14:48,615 --> 00:14:51,645
like car model years, right?

276
00:14:52,291 --> 00:14:54,571
Oh, that's exactly what they're going for.

277
00:14:54,651 --> 00:14:57,861
The idea would be is that anything
but the budget phone would be

278
00:14:57,861 --> 00:15:02,151
for the next year, and then the
budget phone, like the 16 E right.

279
00:15:02,211 --> 00:15:03,561
Would've been the 25

280
00:15:03,700 --> 00:15:04,550
yeah, exactly.

281
00:15:04,850 --> 00:15:11,325
And so I think it's, I think I'm okay
with it, but we'll see how it plays out.

282
00:15:11,375 --> 00:15:14,945
what they need to do, and I know
I've said this every year, but what

283
00:15:14,945 --> 00:15:19,085
they need to do is just not have so
many versions of everything, right?

284
00:15:19,445 --> 00:15:21,575
Consumers can keep it simple.

285
00:15:21,605 --> 00:15:28,575
I want the iPhone 26, I want
the iPad 26 in size X. you and

286
00:15:28,575 --> 00:15:29,865
I have spoken about this before.

287
00:15:30,105 --> 00:15:34,395
It's no longer that simple thing of I
want an iPad of one of these two sizes.

288
00:15:34,425 --> 00:15:37,665
I want an iPhone of one of the,
by simplifying the numbers, you've

289
00:15:37,665 --> 00:15:40,155
not simplified the actual problem

290
00:15:40,510 --> 00:15:43,600
Do you think we'll get hints of a
foldable phone in our Swift UI code?

291
00:15:44,544 --> 00:15:45,504
I hope so.

292
00:15:45,804 --> 00:15:50,534
And the reason I say that is because
I think to us the developer community.

293
00:15:51,149 --> 00:15:56,699
We wouldn't be surprised as far as we are
concerned, it's a done deal at some point.

294
00:15:57,189 --> 00:15:59,769
So we won't be shocked or surprised.

295
00:16:00,039 --> 00:16:02,229
It'll just be, ah, there it is.

296
00:16:02,389 --> 00:16:07,279
And sometimes I do wonder if companies
Apple, in this case put those

297
00:16:07,279 --> 00:16:11,089
little things in there for people to
find, to see what the reaction is.

298
00:16:11,509 --> 00:16:11,959
Oh, okay.

299
00:16:11,959 --> 00:16:12,769
Should we do that?

300
00:16:12,769 --> 00:16:16,839
Because like we were saying earlier
about everything else, if Apple does a

301
00:16:16,839 --> 00:16:24,369
foldable, it better be the Apple we used
to know and love, where it's like you

302
00:16:24,369 --> 00:16:27,429
have made one better than everybody else.

303
00:16:27,699 --> 00:16:31,459
Because, along with that,
they're gonna charge more for it.

304
00:16:32,289 --> 00:16:32,859
no question.

305
00:16:33,155 --> 00:16:33,335
And

306
00:16:33,335 --> 00:16:33,695
it's gonna be

307
00:16:33,695 --> 00:16:35,165
I would be a what?

308
00:16:35,165 --> 00:16:36,995
I think that's the thing
is would I use one.

309
00:16:38,375 --> 00:16:39,870
Probably I probably wouldn't.

310
00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:41,640
'cause I love my iPhone 15.

311
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,510
I went down from the max
to the, to just the pro,

312
00:16:46,621 --> 00:16:46,911
Okay.

313
00:16:46,980 --> 00:16:50,760
I think for me was one of the best
decisions, was like, this is fantastic,

314
00:16:50,810 --> 00:16:51,950
this is what I should have done.

315
00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,490
So I don't want to foldable,
but I think it'll be in there.

316
00:16:55,490 --> 00:17:00,320
I think we'll have traces of
some mystery hardware that

317
00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:01,850
will clearly be the foldable.

318
00:17:02,180 --> 00:17:05,720
Just like we've said before
when they said, stop focusing

319
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,510
on actual physical screen sizes,

320
00:17:09,501 --> 00:17:09,741
Yeah.

321
00:17:10,235 --> 00:17:10,895
What do you think?

322
00:17:10,945 --> 00:17:12,415
do you think we're years away

323
00:17:12,596 --> 00:17:13,551
What would that look like?

324
00:17:14,835 --> 00:17:15,435
Yeah.

325
00:17:15,435 --> 00:17:16,455
It's so hard, right?

326
00:17:16,455 --> 00:17:19,065
Because all the mockups that
everybody does for these things

327
00:17:19,065 --> 00:17:24,355
is always the typical not thinking
like Apple, oh, let's just take two

328
00:17:24,385 --> 00:17:26,095
iPhones and sandwich them together,

329
00:17:26,095 --> 00:17:30,655
Apple will either figure out the crease
problem or they'll work around the crease

330
00:17:30,655 --> 00:17:32,425
problem, which is the Apple way, right?

331
00:17:32,455 --> 00:17:34,905
Where it's oh yeah, we can't
have see-through glasses.

332
00:17:34,905 --> 00:17:37,425
Let's put a screen on the
outside to show your fake face.

333
00:17:37,425 --> 00:17:41,445
Or, oh, we can't get rid of a notch,
so let's just make it an island

334
00:17:41,445 --> 00:17:42,975
and have a little widget at there.

335
00:17:43,025 --> 00:17:46,745
So like I feel okay, what are they gonna
do with the crease in a creative way that

336
00:17:46,969 --> 00:17:47,569
right.

337
00:17:47,975 --> 00:17:48,125
the

338
00:17:48,239 --> 00:17:49,979
I thought about this and I was like, okay.

339
00:17:50,029 --> 00:17:54,459
I've just never liked this idea of a
crease that's like a fold, that actual

340
00:17:54,459 --> 00:17:56,049
crease on the Samsung about where it is.

341
00:17:56,515 --> 00:17:58,105
Have you looked at an actual foldable

342
00:17:58,209 --> 00:18:03,359
I feel like they could oh, apple
will be, is they, if anyone could

343
00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:05,284
make a seamless screen that just.

344
00:18:05,819 --> 00:18:08,789
It looks like it snaps
together, it would be them.

345
00:18:08,999 --> 00:18:13,109
But maybe they can make a dynamic
island that runs all the way along

346
00:18:13,109 --> 00:18:15,629
that middle piece that's thin.

347
00:18:16,290 --> 00:18:16,950
Or something like

348
00:18:17,159 --> 00:18:21,019
And because, I was thinking the other day,
I was like, okay, clearly I'm not Apple,

349
00:18:21,019 --> 00:18:27,619
but what's an Apples way and an Apish
way is have it fold the other way so that

350
00:18:27,619 --> 00:18:32,419
the screens are on the outside and that
crease could become a magic island that

351
00:18:32,419 --> 00:18:35,659
I can read when my phone is laying flat

352
00:18:35,819 --> 00:18:36,479
Do you know what I mean?

353
00:18:36,839 --> 00:18:37,139
Yep.

354
00:18:37,239 --> 00:18:39,459
if you thought of this already
and that's what you're doing,

355
00:18:39,459 --> 00:18:41,049
I didn't steal the plans.

356
00:18:41,409 --> 00:18:41,949
No, they should

357
00:18:42,019 --> 00:18:45,589
if they haven't thought of
it, hey gi, gimme a call.

358
00:18:45,639 --> 00:18:45,939
We'll put

359
00:18:46,073 --> 00:18:46,363
yeah.

360
00:18:46,508 --> 00:18:49,518
I'll say if I just solved
the problem, it's all right.

361
00:18:49,518 --> 00:18:51,618
I'll just take 1% of anything,

362
00:18:51,948 --> 00:18:54,098
did you, so you do some Android,

363
00:18:54,788 --> 00:18:55,178
Yeah.

364
00:18:55,478 --> 00:18:56,563
did you watch any of Google

365
00:18:56,678 --> 00:19:01,978
I didn't watch it, but I have read I
gotta say, for me, I was like, Google,

366
00:19:02,758 --> 00:19:08,198
I think may have a better year than
Apple right now, but again, assuming

367
00:19:08,198 --> 00:19:13,418
they can deliver the magic, whoever
delivers the magic's gonna get it.

368
00:19:13,808 --> 00:19:17,318
But certainly it feels like all the
right promises are there from Google.

369
00:19:17,368 --> 00:19:18,238
Love more, hate them.

370
00:19:18,238 --> 00:19:20,098
Just Apple right now.

371
00:19:20,148 --> 00:19:21,208
feel like, Google.

372
00:19:21,568 --> 00:19:24,623
Yeah, they're so smart to have
their conference just before.

373
00:19:24,723 --> 00:19:29,733
Because they can say even if they,
accidentally now what Apple's gonna

374
00:19:29,733 --> 00:19:33,513
announce, they can still say we
did it first, so I'm excited for

375
00:19:33,513 --> 00:19:34,923
what Google's doing this year.

376
00:19:35,063 --> 00:19:37,523
I don't wanna be a
full-time Android developer.

377
00:19:37,553 --> 00:19:38,783
No offense to anybody.

378
00:19:38,783 --> 00:19:39,983
It's not my thing.

379
00:19:40,133 --> 00:19:40,853
I'm a Swift

380
00:19:41,168 --> 00:19:44,318
if you do want to be a full-time
manager or a developer, you skip tools.

381
00:19:44,318 --> 00:19:45,098
That way you can

382
00:19:45,263 --> 00:19:45,893
Oh yeah.

383
00:19:46,103 --> 00:19:46,673
a previous

384
00:19:46,932 --> 00:19:48,072
Aren't those guys great?

385
00:19:48,072 --> 00:19:50,352
They are doing such a phenomenal job.

386
00:19:50,692 --> 00:19:54,112
And I know folks that have used
the Skip tools and of course, like

387
00:19:54,112 --> 00:19:55,162
you say, you've interviewed them.

388
00:19:55,162 --> 00:19:55,972
I've interviewed them.

389
00:19:56,262 --> 00:20:00,292
I really think that they have a great
solution and that is probably the

390
00:20:00,338 --> 00:20:04,588
and I'm really excited to see now we
have the ecosystem steering committee.

391
00:20:04,822 --> 00:20:06,292
That's another smart thing, right?

392
00:20:06,342 --> 00:20:09,832
swift has not been pushed in.

393
00:20:10,357 --> 00:20:14,527
In the sense of realizing it's
available for other platforms

394
00:20:14,807 --> 00:20:16,487
especially embedded stuff.

395
00:20:16,827 --> 00:20:17,607
Like folks like

396
00:20:17,863 --> 00:20:19,943
I don't know if you
follow the Edge OS stuff

397
00:20:19,977 --> 00:20:20,247
Yeah.

398
00:20:20,407 --> 00:20:21,147
And things like that.

399
00:20:21,807 --> 00:20:25,131
'Cause hey, if I could write, and I
often say this with the folks that I

400
00:20:25,131 --> 00:20:29,271
hang out with, if I could write Swift
as my solution anywhere for anything,

401
00:20:29,331 --> 00:20:31,251
you better believe that's what I do.

402
00:20:31,321 --> 00:20:34,681
I just don't believe in having
to jump through hoops to make it

403
00:20:34,681 --> 00:20:38,951
work, which is why those, you're
saying about the SKIP tools, it's

404
00:20:38,951 --> 00:20:40,631
great, you've solved my pain point.

405
00:20:40,751 --> 00:20:41,411
Well done.

406
00:20:41,531 --> 00:20:41,921
Yeah.

407
00:20:42,811 --> 00:20:46,171
So one thing I wanted to mention
that we talked about version numbers

408
00:20:46,171 --> 00:20:50,491
is I feel like the yearly cycle
is weird, I don't know how to put

409
00:20:50,491 --> 00:20:55,051
it, but I get it, it's a marketing
thing, but at the same time what,

410
00:20:55,250 --> 00:20:55,670
Does it?

411
00:20:56,120 --> 00:21:01,360
and what I also feel like we're pushing
features sometimes that nobody wants.

412
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:02,770
An unfair

413
00:21:02,936 --> 00:21:05,976
and it's like just to have
something to show off for the

414
00:21:05,976 --> 00:21:07,866
new model, blah, blah, blah.

415
00:21:08,496 --> 00:21:13,526
And yeah, but you guys haven't fixed
like all these issues on the previous os.

416
00:21:14,096 --> 00:21:18,786
And I think, two thoughts on
that is yeah you're putting

417
00:21:18,786 --> 00:21:20,436
an undue pressure on yourself.

418
00:21:20,526 --> 00:21:24,906
Oh, it's that time of year again, people
are gonna expect new hardware, people

419
00:21:24,906 --> 00:21:31,196
are gonna expect the new OSS in WWDC,
knowing that they won't be available.

420
00:21:31,436 --> 00:21:37,076
But also, like we said, last year,
they still had most of the year.

421
00:21:37,691 --> 00:21:40,151
this is part of the other bigger problem.

422
00:21:41,531 --> 00:21:47,966
You have folks that are driving everything
based on the money side of the equation.

423
00:21:48,861 --> 00:21:53,661
And you've created this artificial
enterprise of once a year, twice

424
00:21:53,661 --> 00:21:57,681
a year you do this as opposed
to ship it when it's ready.

425
00:21:57,861 --> 00:21:59,931
I think these versions need s years.

426
00:22:00,441 --> 00:22:08,681
Like what hap, we had the iPhone s's
like we need like iOS what, like 18

427
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:09,250
Yeah.

428
00:22:09,295 --> 00:22:12,895
I don't mean that literally, but
like we're doing these every year

429
00:22:12,895 --> 00:22:16,705
and like we still have bugs in
version four that haven't been

430
00:22:16,885 --> 00:22:20,205
someone asked me the other day, what's
the biggest thing you want this year?

431
00:22:20,535 --> 00:22:24,485
And it's the same answer I always give,
which is, Hey, I love those years when

432
00:22:24,485 --> 00:22:27,390
they just truthfully say, nothing major.

433
00:22:27,630 --> 00:22:28,680
It's a bug fix year.

434
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,850
As developers we're like, fantastic.

435
00:22:30,850 --> 00:22:31,870
Thank you so much.

436
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,310
But I get it to all the
top level sweet folks.

437
00:22:35,310 --> 00:22:36,690
It's the marketing thing, right?

438
00:22:36,959 --> 00:22:38,069
from fixing bugs.

439
00:22:38,099 --> 00:22:39,869
How does that ship a new phone?

440
00:22:40,389 --> 00:22:42,939
But you do lose customers
if you don't fix bug.

441
00:22:43,179 --> 00:22:44,804
That's the problem that

442
00:22:45,294 --> 00:22:46,554
until now.

443
00:22:46,654 --> 00:22:50,224
Because I think that's the
thing is the competition has.

444
00:22:51,289 --> 00:22:53,749
Never been as fierce as it is now.

445
00:22:53,959 --> 00:22:59,309
And people, we are reaching a tipping
point where things are now so expensive

446
00:22:59,909 --> 00:23:04,589
that you folks are now saying, you
gotta give me a reason to buy it.

447
00:23:05,069 --> 00:23:07,499
I'm not just gonna get,
but it's a new iPhone.

448
00:23:07,589 --> 00:23:08,879
Okay, take my money.

449
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:10,139
It's a new iPad.

450
00:23:10,139 --> 00:23:15,629
Take my money right now,
because of lots of situations.

451
00:23:16,349 --> 00:23:19,379
It's, why do I have to get it?

452
00:23:20,339 --> 00:23:23,399
And you've gotta give me that
new shiny, even this thing

453
00:23:23,399 --> 00:23:25,259
of, it's got a better camera.

454
00:23:25,259 --> 00:23:28,539
I don't think it works as,
to sell it like it used to.

455
00:23:28,639 --> 00:23:28,969
Do.

456
00:23:29,149 --> 00:23:33,679
If you think about it like content
creators like you and myself, do we

457
00:23:33,679 --> 00:23:38,809
buy a new $1,100 camera every year?

458
00:23:39,809 --> 00:23:42,419
I'm sure some folks do, but I don't,

459
00:23:43,804 --> 00:23:44,154
right.

460
00:23:44,309 --> 00:23:48,809
and I think the average consumer now is
like starting to realize how expensive

461
00:23:48,809 --> 00:23:51,059
these things are and what you get for it.

462
00:23:51,569 --> 00:23:55,799
So I don't think the yearly
cycle necessarily works anymore.

463
00:23:56,399 --> 00:24:00,259
It does it, and in the, in that
sense, like you say, I agree.

464
00:24:00,259 --> 00:24:05,509
Give me a, an on off cycle for
bug fixes In software, I would

465
00:24:05,509 --> 00:24:06,979
be more inclined to buy hardware.

466
00:24:06,979 --> 00:24:12,859
If you gave me a two year cycle,
wouldn't feel so bad and I'd

467
00:24:12,859 --> 00:24:14,119
have paid off the other one,

468
00:24:14,219 --> 00:24:18,089
I think the iPhone just, there
isn't gonna be that much more

469
00:24:18,089 --> 00:24:19,619
innovation in the smartphone.

470
00:24:19,649 --> 00:24:24,209
Not having said that, I do
think it's not a device that's

471
00:24:24,209 --> 00:24:25,649
gonna go away anytime soon.

472
00:24:25,699 --> 00:24:28,279
when the smartphone
came out, I don't think.

473
00:24:28,639 --> 00:24:30,739
Sales of computers went down.

474
00:24:30,739 --> 00:24:34,699
I just think more people had access
to technology with the smartphone.

475
00:24:35,449 --> 00:24:37,609
AI is not gonna take away the smartphone.

476
00:24:37,659 --> 00:24:38,679
Yeah, you don't want the

477
00:24:38,964 --> 00:24:39,774
having a screen.

478
00:24:39,984 --> 00:24:43,374
We want a screen, we want something
we can look at regardless of

479
00:24:43,374 --> 00:24:44,694
whether there's AI behind it

480
00:24:44,739 --> 00:24:46,719
look at the ipo, the iPod.

481
00:24:47,199 --> 00:24:51,429
That was in theory, a great idea
with no screen, no controls, but.

482
00:24:52,389 --> 00:24:55,029
Maybe it was just way too
ahead of its time in that.

483
00:24:55,029 --> 00:24:55,269
Yeah.

484
00:24:55,289 --> 00:24:55,739
yeah.

485
00:24:55,789 --> 00:25:00,829
Yeah, I'm, at this point, if you tried
to get me to use anything that didn't

486
00:25:00,829 --> 00:25:05,959
have some kind of input system, other
than it relying on my weird accent

487
00:25:05,959 --> 00:25:08,899
voice, it's just not gonna sell on me.

488
00:25:08,899 --> 00:25:10,249
It's just not gonna happen.

489
00:25:10,589 --> 00:25:13,689
I think there was a joke someone said
the other day about, they stopped

490
00:25:13,689 --> 00:25:17,779
the car project because you couldn't,
it wasn't recognizing when someone

491
00:25:17,779 --> 00:25:22,169
said, please stop, turn left, but
I agree with you and I think the

492
00:25:22,169 --> 00:25:25,469
phone device is not gonna go away.

493
00:25:25,739 --> 00:25:32,249
But I recognize on the flip side,
you only sell so many so often

494
00:25:32,549 --> 00:25:37,379
I'm sure Apple's doing just fine,
but there will be a tipping point.

495
00:25:37,739 --> 00:25:37,979
Yeah.

496
00:25:37,979 --> 00:25:38,879
Let's go for it.

497
00:25:38,909 --> 00:25:42,789
Do you, when you say Costa iPhone,
are you talking specifically

498
00:25:42,789 --> 00:25:44,440
about tariffs or was there

499
00:25:44,453 --> 00:25:46,193
no, I was just talking.

500
00:25:46,243 --> 00:25:50,743
I try not to touch on
anything close to politics.

501
00:25:50,743 --> 00:25:57,223
It's such a dangerous area, but
anything that raises the price of the

502
00:25:57,223 --> 00:26:02,693
phone, even if it's just, apple wants
to raise the price, I think it's a

503
00:26:02,693 --> 00:26:06,813
dangerous gamble let me put it this way.

504
00:26:06,963 --> 00:26:08,193
I think a lot of folks.

505
00:26:08,503 --> 00:26:11,593
when they buy the huge television, right?

506
00:26:11,693 --> 00:26:13,673
hey priorities, right?

507
00:26:13,953 --> 00:26:21,453
And so do you need to spend 1200,
1300 plus on a phone every year?

508
00:26:21,863 --> 00:26:24,593
Do you think people buy new
phones every year still?

509
00:26:24,817 --> 00:26:26,467
I think there's enough.

510
00:26:26,677 --> 00:26:26,967
Okay.

511
00:26:27,817 --> 00:26:34,007
this model, working for me, it's
usually I won't entertain the idea

512
00:26:34,007 --> 00:26:35,507
for at least a couple of years.

513
00:26:35,967 --> 00:26:36,837
That's what I do.

514
00:26:36,897 --> 00:26:40,507
And even I got a 15 and it's fantastic.

515
00:26:40,537 --> 00:26:41,917
I have no reason to change it.

516
00:26:42,337 --> 00:26:46,597
But I'm sure there are folks who are
just, I want to have the latest one.

517
00:26:47,077 --> 00:26:48,097
There's enough of them.

518
00:26:48,097 --> 00:26:51,437
Otherwise they would, it's like
those spam phone calls and everyone

519
00:26:51,437 --> 00:26:53,057
says, how do people fall for this?

520
00:26:53,057 --> 00:26:53,987
Why do they keep doing this?

521
00:26:54,267 --> 00:26:55,287
Because enough people.

522
00:26:55,392 --> 00:26:58,182
do it, that it's worth
them to keep doing that.

523
00:26:58,282 --> 00:27:01,762
I'm not saying the iPhone is spam
folks before you're right in, I'm

524
00:27:01,762 --> 00:27:05,452
just saying that whatever it is,
there's always enough people to buy

525
00:27:05,452 --> 00:27:08,602
into the business model, otherwise
the business model wouldn't exist.

526
00:27:09,042 --> 00:27:09,822
I think it's hurt the

527
00:27:10,042 --> 00:27:15,202
I think it's mostly people who have
iPhone elevens and are upgrading.

528
00:27:15,202 --> 00:27:18,952
I don't think it's people who are
like, I have the 14, I need the 15.

529
00:27:19,002 --> 00:27:19,242
Yeah.

530
00:27:19,242 --> 00:27:23,822
And I think, it's driven by the younger
market, younger than ourselves, Leo.

531
00:27:23,872 --> 00:27:28,222
If we are, if we're fruitful, I wish
I had that kind of disposable income,

532
00:27:28,582 --> 00:27:32,392
but then I'd probably be taking
vacations if I could do that as well.

533
00:27:34,253 --> 00:27:34,493
Yeah.

534
00:27:34,543 --> 00:27:38,558
I don't, yeah, maybe they'll
raise the cost of the iPhone.

535
00:27:38,558 --> 00:27:43,898
They've already raised the cost of
the cheapest iPhone, obviously, so I.

536
00:27:44,753 --> 00:27:46,893
That's been the way they've done it.

537
00:27:47,133 --> 00:27:51,933
I think that's the elephant in the room
right now, more so than the prices,

538
00:27:52,023 --> 00:27:55,713
and I think that's gonna be one of
the sticky situations Apple's probably

539
00:27:55,713 --> 00:27:57,603
gonna be in for the next rest of the

540
00:27:57,647 --> 00:27:58,277
yeah, and I,

541
00:27:58,327 --> 00:28:01,417
regardless of politics.

542
00:28:01,447 --> 00:28:02,377
It's just, a bad

543
00:28:02,617 --> 00:28:02,977
Yeah.

544
00:28:03,027 --> 00:28:07,137
At the end of the day, it comes
down to it's still the consumer

545
00:28:07,137 --> 00:28:09,297
that gets hurt in the middle.

546
00:28:09,417 --> 00:28:13,557
Regardless of how you get there, whether
a price increase is forced on you,

547
00:28:13,557 --> 00:28:17,487
or they choose to, or, any of these
companies or, whatever the situation,

548
00:28:17,817 --> 00:28:20,277
it's gonna be us that, that suffer, right?

549
00:28:20,312 --> 00:28:21,122
It always is.

550
00:28:21,452 --> 00:28:30,292
And I think that more than anything maybe
would drive a slower rate of iPhone sales.

551
00:28:30,752 --> 00:28:38,122
I think it definitely gets worse
when you talk about whatever the

552
00:28:38,122 --> 00:28:39,832
plans are for the vision Pro.

553
00:28:40,492 --> 00:28:45,222
You couldn't convince enough people
to spend three K on this now.

554
00:28:46,362 --> 00:28:47,862
The price of a phone goes up.

555
00:28:47,862 --> 00:28:51,012
Surely at some point the price
of everything else hardware

556
00:28:51,012 --> 00:28:52,452
is gonna go up as well, right?

557
00:28:53,452 --> 00:28:53,842
Yeah

558
00:28:53,942 --> 00:28:58,842
And on that note, it will affect me
when it comes to Max because we're

559
00:28:58,902 --> 00:29:01,752
pretty regular upgrade now Max, right?

560
00:29:01,752 --> 00:29:02,682
I got the M four.

561
00:29:02,802 --> 00:29:03,432
I love it.

562
00:29:03,702 --> 00:29:04,722
But by the time the M

563
00:29:05,087 --> 00:29:06,162
What kind of M four did you

564
00:29:06,222 --> 00:29:08,442
the M four Pro Mac Mini,

565
00:29:08,622 --> 00:29:10,422
Oh, I really want to get

566
00:29:10,501 --> 00:29:17,336
I got the 64 gig version or whatever it
is, 48, whatever that top number was.

567
00:29:17,546 --> 00:29:22,486
I got that one in the Pro with,
a one terabyte drive inside

568
00:29:22,486 --> 00:29:23,686
and I'm using the externals.

569
00:29:24,226 --> 00:29:25,186
That's awesome.

570
00:29:25,500 --> 00:29:28,500
I have no reason to change
this thing anytime soon.

571
00:29:28,570 --> 00:29:32,680
for what we do as developers
and content creators, Xcode will

572
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,300
always take some time to compile.

573
00:29:34,790 --> 00:29:38,750
rendering video and things
like that, it's gonna keep me

574
00:29:38,856 --> 00:29:39,096
probably

575
00:29:39,101 --> 00:29:39,491
And that,

576
00:29:39,942 --> 00:29:41,202
same here with my M1

577
00:29:41,411 --> 00:29:41,921
there you go.

578
00:29:41,921 --> 00:29:42,521
The M ones.

579
00:29:42,731 --> 00:29:45,551
So imagine an M four studio, right?

580
00:29:45,731 --> 00:29:49,001
You are not gonna need, you
might wanna replace that thing

581
00:29:49,001 --> 00:29:52,621
every couple of years but in your
heart, you don't need to, right?

582
00:29:53,081 --> 00:29:56,151
And I feel that's the same problem as
with the phone and everything else.

583
00:29:56,151 --> 00:30:00,561
You nailed it when you said from a
hardware perspective, these things

584
00:30:00,561 --> 00:30:03,381
are now so mature that we are not.

585
00:30:03,771 --> 00:30:06,651
You and I are old enough to
remember the early days of I

586
00:30:06,651 --> 00:30:09,381
got a 66 megahertz intel chip.

587
00:30:09,771 --> 00:30:14,391
Pre SSDs, pre lc, like CRT monitors.

588
00:30:14,391 --> 00:30:14,996
We've come a long way.

589
00:30:15,350 --> 00:30:21,020
But that goes back to, like you said, with
that phone in my pocket, I got more power

590
00:30:21,020 --> 00:30:22,940
in my pocket than I ever dreamed I would.

591
00:30:23,540 --> 00:30:25,130
What are we gonna see with Vision Pro?

592
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,250
Like where can they possibly
go with that device?

593
00:30:28,730 --> 00:30:29,840
You didn't get one, did you?

594
00:30:30,350 --> 00:30:30,800
Okay.

595
00:30:30,980 --> 00:30:33,410
have not tried the demo.

596
00:30:33,470 --> 00:30:37,160
Here's the reason why I'll be completely
transparent with the audience.

597
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,530
Because I know if I try one, that's it.

598
00:30:40,940 --> 00:30:40,942
I'm done.

599
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:41,405
Oh, you

600
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:42,090
I'm done.

601
00:30:42,090 --> 00:30:42,840
Take my money.

602
00:30:42,940 --> 00:30:43,120
And

603
00:30:43,375 --> 00:30:43,945
Wow.

604
00:30:44,110 --> 00:30:48,820
why I haven't, because I know the
benefits for me, the huge benefit

605
00:30:48,820 --> 00:30:54,240
would be the one that a lot of folks,
mention, Tim Mitra, for example, he's

606
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,100
always saying about the huge desktop.

607
00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:56,970
Yeah.

608
00:30:57,300 --> 00:30:58,050
Oh my gosh.

609
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:03,660
If I had that, I'd be set, but I also know
that enough people say about the weight,

610
00:31:04,050 --> 00:31:05,280
it's oh, that's why I don't have one.

611
00:31:05,430 --> 00:31:10,880
Not to mention that I can't justify
the cost, but I did say to myself,

612
00:31:10,940 --> 00:31:14,330
oh, V two might be a thing, but.

613
00:31:14,660 --> 00:31:19,850
I think part of the question maybe you're
asking is there will be a V two, right?

614
00:31:20,985 --> 00:31:23,745
Or what are they gonna do with
the V two to actually sell it?

615
00:31:23,825 --> 00:31:28,415
The big part of the problem, obviously,
is that the developers did not flock

616
00:31:28,415 --> 00:31:33,715
to it like they thought they would, I
feel like with that product, what pushes

617
00:31:33,715 --> 00:31:39,515
me away is, besides the lack of apps,
is the the thousands of paper cuts.

618
00:31:39,635 --> 00:31:43,145
I feel like I'd use it and be
like, oh, but This is a problem.

619
00:31:43,145 --> 00:31:44,435
This is a problem.

620
00:31:44,465 --> 00:31:45,215
This is a problem.

621
00:31:45,245 --> 00:31:48,605
It's just after all, I'm just gonna
be like, I don't want to use this.

622
00:31:48,635 --> 00:31:51,665
And we've heard reports of people
who've owned them and just left them

623
00:31:51,665 --> 00:31:55,475
in their drawer because they're just
like, I'm sick and tired of dealing

624
00:31:55,529 --> 00:32:00,329
I'd love to know the percentage
of people, and I hope it's low,

625
00:32:00,929 --> 00:32:02,879
but if they're honest, they said.

626
00:32:04,124 --> 00:32:07,184
I'm still using it to feel like
I got my money's worth out of it.

627
00:32:07,844 --> 00:32:11,654
And I know that be because I know
there were folks use it to watch,

628
00:32:12,054 --> 00:32:14,154
essentially like an infinite big screen.

629
00:32:14,484 --> 00:32:16,464
And I bet that's amazing.

630
00:32:16,524 --> 00:32:19,934
That's another reason why yeah, if I
was to see the latest mission Impossible

631
00:32:20,624 --> 00:32:24,434
on one of those, and my whole room
is a screen, I'm gonna feel like

632
00:32:24,434 --> 00:32:25,814
it's the best thing I ever bought.

633
00:32:25,864 --> 00:32:26,354
exactly.

634
00:32:26,544 --> 00:32:27,414
so there is that.

635
00:32:27,414 --> 00:32:30,894
But I also know Jeff, the co-host on
the compulsory of podcast, he has one.

636
00:32:31,304 --> 00:32:36,614
But I lived through his experience of
spending a long time crafting his app.

637
00:32:36,894 --> 00:32:38,394
Shout out to Jeff, by the way, buddy.

638
00:32:38,704 --> 00:32:44,164
Spent, I watched him spending a long time
making his app work exceptionally well.

639
00:32:45,019 --> 00:32:50,539
On the Vision Os and then after
a while saying, how's that going?

640
00:32:50,809 --> 00:32:51,279
And it's what?

641
00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:52,119
Why did I bother?

642
00:32:52,669 --> 00:32:53,324
And I get it,

643
00:32:54,060 --> 00:32:55,350
So does he have a vision pro?

644
00:32:55,394 --> 00:32:55,874
does.

645
00:32:55,984 --> 00:32:56,584
Does he use

646
00:32:56,729 --> 00:32:57,599
He says he does.

647
00:32:57,659 --> 00:32:58,679
And I believe him.

648
00:32:58,959 --> 00:33:00,039
What does he use it for?

649
00:33:00,203 --> 00:33:00,713
yeah.

650
00:33:01,143 --> 00:33:01,713
That was the thing.

651
00:33:01,713 --> 00:33:03,213
I didn't, it was like,
okay, I'll believe you.

652
00:33:03,213 --> 00:33:07,213
I won't ask too many questions, we would,
have you come on the podcast against him.

653
00:33:07,213 --> 00:33:07,873
You can ask him.

654
00:33:08,173 --> 00:33:10,843
'Cause I feel like there will be
a great conversation between the

655
00:33:10,843 --> 00:33:12,433
two of you about the Vision Pro,

656
00:33:12,569 --> 00:33:13,949
I'd be curious like what?

657
00:33:14,293 --> 00:33:18,623
But he does, I think, for him to
speak on his behalf, but obviously

658
00:33:18,623 --> 00:33:23,473
as a developer, he spent a lot of
time with his app and felt like.

659
00:33:23,788 --> 00:33:26,708
Wow, what a waste of time that
was, and again, folks, I'm

660
00:33:26,708 --> 00:33:28,028
just interpreting what he said.

661
00:33:28,028 --> 00:33:31,058
it wasn't worth the development
time, and he's not the only

662
00:33:31,058 --> 00:33:32,138
one I've heard that from.

663
00:33:32,238 --> 00:33:35,578
And I think, like you are saying,
that's been the thing to touch on

664
00:33:35,578 --> 00:33:37,558
it, the death by a thousand cuts.

665
00:33:37,888 --> 00:33:38,518
Yeah.

666
00:33:38,568 --> 00:33:40,908
As we know with all Apple devices, right?

667
00:33:40,908 --> 00:33:46,758
Let's be honest, whether Apple likes it or
not, it's the third party apps that make

668
00:33:46,758 --> 00:33:49,488
or break it, it made the iPhone, right?

669
00:33:49,968 --> 00:33:55,638
Not to say that the iPhone's not a
fantastic phone, but it didn't really

670
00:33:55,638 --> 00:33:59,088
become useful to like myself until
great, now I got apps on it, right?

671
00:33:59,118 --> 00:34:02,628
And that's what the Vision
Pro clearly needs as well.

672
00:34:03,108 --> 00:34:08,418
But I don't blame developers if they took
the stance of, you know what Apple, we

673
00:34:08,418 --> 00:34:11,718
all know you don't like us developers.

674
00:34:11,778 --> 00:34:13,518
You really never give us.

675
00:34:14,433 --> 00:34:17,373
The attention because we are
not, we don't put the money

676
00:34:17,373 --> 00:34:19,053
in your pocket in that sense.

677
00:34:19,633 --> 00:34:20,383
Yes, we do.

678
00:34:20,383 --> 00:34:23,353
Because look at the app store, right?

679
00:34:23,633 --> 00:34:26,543
And Apple makes huge amount
of money from services.

680
00:34:26,543 --> 00:34:27,983
That's a whole other conversation.

681
00:34:28,283 --> 00:34:34,133
But why would I help Apple when I
feel like they're not really doing a

682
00:34:34,133 --> 00:34:39,473
whole lot to help me except just lie
in their pockets with my hard work?

683
00:34:39,563 --> 00:34:40,193
You know what I mean?

684
00:34:41,469 --> 00:34:41,679
yeah.

685
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:45,999
I know, even diehard developers go
spend a three grand on a vision pro.

686
00:34:46,999 --> 00:34:47,449
right,

687
00:34:47,643 --> 00:34:48,243
response

688
00:34:48,349 --> 00:34:48,649
or

689
00:34:48,649 --> 00:34:52,579
like, mine, I'll, I'd rather have
spent three grand on a phenomenal

690
00:34:52,789 --> 00:34:54,949
Mac mini, which is what I did.

691
00:34:55,759 --> 00:34:57,679
And love this thing for years.

692
00:34:57,949 --> 00:35:01,339
The Vision Pro is a V one, assuming.

693
00:35:02,029 --> 00:35:03,529
It's still the plan.

694
00:35:03,559 --> 00:35:08,659
It'll be redundant at some
point year or next year, but

695
00:35:08,659 --> 00:35:10,729
my Mac mini lives on, right?

696
00:35:12,004 --> 00:35:12,694
Exactly.

697
00:35:13,244 --> 00:35:14,294
That's the way I would look at it.

698
00:35:14,294 --> 00:35:17,804
I'd rather spend money on
a Mac than on a vision pro.

699
00:35:17,804 --> 00:35:18,914
'cause I know I'd use it

700
00:35:19,014 --> 00:35:19,164
yeah.

701
00:35:19,164 --> 00:35:22,469
Or for that matter,
that's two plus iPhones.

702
00:35:23,544 --> 00:35:24,054
Exactly.

703
00:35:24,549 --> 00:35:29,289
I know for yourself and like
in my household, we are two

704
00:35:29,289 --> 00:35:31,719
plus iPhone families, right?

705
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,919
Most people are, I think at this point, if
you've got one, you've got more than one.

706
00:35:36,189 --> 00:35:39,669
And so great, I'll upgrade
all of those this year.

707
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,349
not all have to sit in the
living room with headsets on,

708
00:35:43,649 --> 00:35:43,949
yeah.

709
00:35:45,509 --> 00:35:49,019
do you think we're gonna see
changes to the app store at

710
00:35:49,069 --> 00:35:49,729
this is

711
00:35:50,659 --> 00:35:51,889
of, legal

712
00:35:51,903 --> 00:35:56,583
yeah, I was gonna say, this is one of the
more, I think, interesting areas, right?

713
00:35:57,123 --> 00:36:00,323
We've seen so many changes, Over
the last year we've seen so many

714
00:36:00,323 --> 00:36:06,143
changes, many of which Europe, no
question, have forced the issue.

715
00:36:07,193 --> 00:36:10,693
Putting aside whether, I
feel that's right or wrong.

716
00:36:11,203 --> 00:36:17,803
There have been changes and there will be
more changes because once you open that

717
00:36:17,803 --> 00:36:19,783
door, you don't close it again, right?

718
00:36:20,053 --> 00:36:22,873
The US I think has had it better.

719
00:36:23,183 --> 00:36:29,523
And some, other countries that are not
Europe are still, locked in the sense that

720
00:36:29,523 --> 00:36:32,283
they are locked in on these platforms.

721
00:36:32,673 --> 00:36:39,343
But I also think if, let's say
the situation arose and take

722
00:36:39,343 --> 00:36:42,043
the Asian and US markets, right?

723
00:36:42,703 --> 00:36:48,793
If they were to suddenly be forced
to open up third party app stores,

724
00:36:49,993 --> 00:36:51,673
I don't think it would be a good id.

725
00:36:52,063 --> 00:36:53,653
It wouldn't be a good experience.

726
00:36:53,933 --> 00:36:55,073
for better or worse.

727
00:36:55,073 --> 00:36:57,363
And you know me, the audience knows me.

728
00:36:57,663 --> 00:37:01,383
I'm all for, hey, fair competition
is a good thing, right?

729
00:37:01,833 --> 00:37:07,203
But I also think security and
privacy is more important.

730
00:37:07,713 --> 00:37:09,933
Now I get it.

731
00:37:10,083 --> 00:37:11,343
You could argue that.

732
00:37:11,703 --> 00:37:16,023
Okay, privacy wise, apple still
has my data and they might be

733
00:37:16,023 --> 00:37:18,213
the nice people in the room.

734
00:37:18,213 --> 00:37:20,673
Right now we don't know
that's it in the future.

735
00:37:20,703 --> 00:37:26,983
I'm not claiming it is I do value not
having to worry that if an app makes

736
00:37:26,983 --> 00:37:32,623
it on my phone or my iPad, and I'm not
including the Mac very specifically there,

737
00:37:32,903 --> 00:37:37,913
if it makes it on my iPhone or my iPad,
there's a better than average chance.

738
00:37:37,913 --> 00:37:38,543
I'm good.

739
00:37:38,753 --> 00:37:44,063
Yes, there are still some problems,
things get through, but it's as

740
00:37:44,063 --> 00:37:49,473
someone who works on multiple platforms
as a job, I can honestly say, it

741
00:37:49,473 --> 00:37:51,153
is infinitely worse on Android.

742
00:37:51,633 --> 00:37:52,293
Is it really

743
00:37:52,357 --> 00:37:52,477
i.

744
00:37:53,197 --> 00:37:59,477
I had an Android phone and I wanted
to really love it because like the,

745
00:37:59,477 --> 00:38:04,727
one of the test phones I've got now
is a Samsung and it's beautiful.

746
00:38:04,967 --> 00:38:06,827
The screen, the cur, it's just fantastic.

747
00:38:07,007 --> 00:38:09,347
It's if I didn't have an
iPhone, this is what I have.

748
00:38:09,447 --> 00:38:10,077
But.

749
00:38:11,232 --> 00:38:13,722
Then I think about the app
stores, and then I think about,

750
00:38:14,112 --> 00:38:15,612
Android platform and that.

751
00:38:15,792 --> 00:38:18,652
So yeah, there will be
changes to the app stores.

752
00:38:18,982 --> 00:38:21,702
I think apple will always claim
it's gonna hurt them, right?

753
00:38:21,702 --> 00:38:24,202
You're cutting off, we
are bleeding to death.

754
00:38:24,922 --> 00:38:25,252
Okay.

755
00:38:25,252 --> 00:38:26,202
Apple, quit it.

756
00:38:26,232 --> 00:38:29,052
No one's gonna believe that you're
bleeding to death anytime soon.

757
00:38:29,322 --> 00:38:35,112
But they do have a good argument, Hey,
this way the users feel more confident.

758
00:38:36,292 --> 00:38:37,432
I can't argue with that.

759
00:38:37,432 --> 00:38:39,412
I think that's a valid
argument right there.

760
00:38:39,842 --> 00:38:43,982
But what do you think from like a app
builder's perspective, do you think

761
00:38:43,982 --> 00:38:46,172
it'll get better or worse for us?

762
00:38:47,172 --> 00:38:49,392
I think most people are
gonna stick with Apple.

763
00:38:49,942 --> 00:38:53,362
as somebody who only is on
Apple, I would say I don't trust

764
00:38:53,362 --> 00:38:55,612
the app store as a consumer.

765
00:38:56,462 --> 00:39:02,772
I just think there's a lot of sketchy
apps, on the app store, so I don't even

766
00:39:02,772 --> 00:39:06,012
feel like I'm paying for decent security.

767
00:39:06,712 --> 00:39:09,832
It sounds like you have more experience
on Android, so maybe I'm mistaken.

768
00:39:09,862 --> 00:39:14,572
So maybe we could get more
premium apps, stores that are

769
00:39:14,572 --> 00:39:16,732
better quality apps and stuff.

770
00:39:17,602 --> 00:39:18,172
I don't know.

771
00:39:18,442 --> 00:39:22,302
But yeah it's a unfortunate
situation we're in and how we got

772
00:39:22,302 --> 00:39:26,602
here as far as like they've been
pressed and pressed and have just.

773
00:39:27,652 --> 00:39:30,882
Que they just continue to squeeze and
think they can get more out of it.

774
00:39:31,131 --> 00:39:31,701
I do.

775
00:39:31,822 --> 00:39:33,592
and I think the iPhone's been hurt by it,

776
00:39:33,951 --> 00:39:35,691
Oh, absolutely I do.

777
00:39:35,941 --> 00:39:40,111
And I do say that I think for.

778
00:39:40,831 --> 00:39:41,941
Many different reasons.

779
00:39:41,941 --> 00:39:43,861
Like you said, death by a thousand cuts.

780
00:39:44,701 --> 00:39:49,861
I jokingly say it, but I
also believe too, welcome to

781
00:39:49,861 --> 00:39:51,541
Microsoft of the nineties folks.

782
00:39:52,491 --> 00:39:57,201
You, once you dominate a market,
it's not the question of whether

783
00:39:57,251 --> 00:39:59,081
you earned that success or not.

784
00:39:59,111 --> 00:40:01,206
'cause hey I think they did.

785
00:40:01,266 --> 00:40:07,806
I think Apple deserves everything they got
because they came up with the solutions

786
00:40:07,806 --> 00:40:09,276
to problems we didn't know we had.

787
00:40:09,276 --> 00:40:12,006
But when we realized we did, wow.

788
00:40:12,006 --> 00:40:14,646
Did it turn the world
around for everybody, right?

789
00:40:14,976 --> 00:40:15,696
Yes, of course.

790
00:40:15,696 --> 00:40:18,036
I'm specifically talking
about the iPhone here, right?

791
00:40:18,256 --> 00:40:22,006
And not, I'm not talking about
whether I think it's right or wrong.

792
00:40:22,456 --> 00:40:25,516
It did turn everything
around for everybody, right?

793
00:40:25,766 --> 00:40:30,326
Not everybody had a cell phone back
when they were, super simple phones

794
00:40:30,626 --> 00:40:34,616
and everybody, most people do now.

795
00:40:35,016 --> 00:40:39,516
And so it's opened up people
around the world to the world,

796
00:40:39,636 --> 00:40:41,136
which is nothing but a good thing.

797
00:40:41,586 --> 00:40:45,306
But with that inevitably becomes okay,

798
00:40:47,376 --> 00:40:52,056
but now you think that we should
just accept everything you do.

799
00:40:53,076 --> 00:40:57,826
And that's acceptable to a certain
point until they, in this case, apple.

800
00:40:57,826 --> 00:41:01,816
And that's why I say welcome to Microsoft
of the nineties, until you start to

801
00:41:01,816 --> 00:41:07,346
abuse that and you start to, Apple's
always believed its own hype, but now

802
00:41:07,346 --> 00:41:09,356
it really believes it's a reality.

803
00:41:09,806 --> 00:41:10,556
Do you know what I mean?

804
00:41:11,096 --> 00:41:11,456
Yeah.

805
00:41:12,157 --> 00:41:15,577
I don't know, I'm a bit cynical about
it just 'cause from what I've seen,

806
00:41:15,727 --> 00:41:20,767
the apps that are the big ones on the
app store tend to be doom scrolling

807
00:41:20,767 --> 00:41:24,877
video apps or like gambling apps.

808
00:41:24,877 --> 00:41:26,347
And that's all I see.

809
00:41:26,617 --> 00:41:28,547
As far as what are the big hits?

810
00:41:29,117 --> 00:41:34,867
So it's great, you've got addictive
apps, but like at the same time what

811
00:41:34,867 --> 00:41:39,257
happened to the really, I don't know,
maybe it's just the market has changed,

812
00:41:39,807 --> 00:41:44,457
but it just seems like those are the
hits and like your productivity app,

813
00:41:44,487 --> 00:41:49,417
or, more creative games seem to be
getting squeezed outta the market.

814
00:41:50,091 --> 00:41:58,176
And I think I put a lot of that
blame on frankly, the unpredictable

815
00:41:58,176 --> 00:41:59,976
nature of App store review.

816
00:42:00,996 --> 00:42:05,136
If we've got 10 Tetris gloss,
that is all that should be allowed

817
00:42:05,136 --> 00:42:07,896
on the store is we have got the
maximum amount of Tetris glos.

818
00:42:08,346 --> 00:42:14,206
I'm not saying that, because the 11th one
could be groundbreaking, pivotal in some

819
00:42:14,206 --> 00:42:20,446
way, but what I am saying is it doesn't
feel like the rules for the app store.

820
00:42:20,446 --> 00:42:24,116
And I know we as developers I
know I'm preaching to the choir.

821
00:42:24,746 --> 00:42:31,136
The rules seem to apply one way for some
folks, one way for another set of folks,

822
00:42:31,496 --> 00:42:36,656
and then we can't help but touch upon
this, if you are one of those companies

823
00:42:36,656 --> 00:42:41,966
that Apple's decided they've got a beef
with you, it's a third set of rules and

824
00:42:41,966 --> 00:42:45,296
we will make out that to let you in.

825
00:42:45,656 --> 00:42:46,436
We'll, just.

826
00:42:47,006 --> 00:42:51,056
Kill Apple as a company, of
which none of us believe it.

827
00:42:51,476 --> 00:42:53,966
But it doesn't matter if
you've got enough lawyers,

828
00:42:54,326 --> 00:42:54,656
yeah.

829
00:42:55,926 --> 00:43:00,846
I do think that the biggest problem
is just the financial structure

830
00:43:00,906 --> 00:43:02,556
of how the app store was set up.

831
00:43:02,556 --> 00:43:06,966
This is what we've ended up with, where
we have games looking for whales and

832
00:43:06,966 --> 00:43:09,036
things like that more than anything else.

833
00:43:09,086 --> 00:43:14,066
And I think that's really where the
problem has reared its head and like

834
00:43:14,066 --> 00:43:15,986
you said, app store review, et cetera.

835
00:43:16,116 --> 00:43:17,766
it's to Apple's advantage, right?

836
00:43:17,766 --> 00:43:18,786
That they make a ton of money

837
00:43:18,891 --> 00:43:19,401
Of course.

838
00:43:19,401 --> 00:43:20,781
And I don't fault them for that.

839
00:43:20,911 --> 00:43:26,941
I think Apple deserves a
percentage of sales because they

840
00:43:26,941 --> 00:43:28,651
are doing an awful lot for us.

841
00:43:29,236 --> 00:43:32,876
Even if it doesn't feel like it,
anyone like us who's ever put an app

842
00:43:32,876 --> 00:43:39,596
in the app store suddenly appreciates
I had to do zero clever marketing to

843
00:43:39,686 --> 00:43:41,456
have a nice page in the app store.

844
00:43:41,736 --> 00:43:43,206
there are so many useful things.

845
00:43:43,206 --> 00:43:45,036
They deserve something for that.

846
00:43:45,036 --> 00:43:46,181
They're hosting this stuff.

847
00:43:46,486 --> 00:43:48,256
what does that percentage,
what should it be?

848
00:43:48,256 --> 00:43:48,976
I don't know.

849
00:43:48,976 --> 00:43:50,446
But they deserve something.

850
00:43:50,986 --> 00:43:57,046
But they don't, if I'm giving them
something, they shouldn't be able

851
00:43:57,046 --> 00:43:59,326
to dictate all the rules to me.

852
00:43:59,756 --> 00:44:04,081
As a someone putting an app in, I
should follow the guidelines that

853
00:44:04,081 --> 00:44:08,011
I agreed to and laid out and they
should be clear for me to understand

854
00:44:08,311 --> 00:44:10,501
so that if you accept it or reject it.

855
00:44:11,146 --> 00:44:12,166
It's okay, I get it.

856
00:44:12,346 --> 00:44:13,576
I pushed too far.

857
00:44:13,856 --> 00:44:16,466
Look at the amount of,
you said it yourself.

858
00:44:16,616 --> 00:44:22,106
Look at the amount of adverts that
you see for things famously, certain

859
00:44:22,106 --> 00:44:25,106
games that didn't exist, that
appeared in adverts and then Hey,

860
00:44:25,106 --> 00:44:26,576
we actually made a game of this now.

861
00:44:26,936 --> 00:44:28,076
That is Apple's fault.

862
00:44:28,886 --> 00:44:29,396
'cause

863
00:44:29,496 --> 00:44:32,196
They're the gatekeepers of
what gets in and what gets out.

864
00:44:32,306 --> 00:44:35,726
that's why they tell us their
monopoly is a good thing.

865
00:44:35,786 --> 00:44:41,546
And yet they don't demonstrate using
that monopoly for the right reasons to,

866
00:44:41,617 --> 00:44:45,067
I think this, I don't care
about the 30% cut, whatever it

867
00:44:45,196 --> 00:44:49,426
If I, it's like arguing about the
$90 or whatever it is, $99 a year

868
00:44:49,426 --> 00:44:50,776
to be in the developer program.

869
00:44:51,977 --> 00:44:52,307
right.

870
00:44:52,426 --> 00:44:57,916
Hey, if you're not making $99 a
year, I. I'll be transparent, right?

871
00:44:57,916 --> 00:44:59,596
I have a full-time day job.

872
00:44:59,866 --> 00:45:05,206
I don't make enough from the app store
to cover my yearly developer, cost.

873
00:45:05,566 --> 00:45:07,426
But that's not why I am doing it.

874
00:45:08,326 --> 00:45:11,656
But if I was doing it, I
would take it serious enough.

875
00:45:11,926 --> 00:45:14,206
I would feel like at that point
I'm doing something wrong.

876
00:45:14,566 --> 00:45:19,411
So before we close out, I wanted to ask
you, what have you been working on lately?

877
00:45:19,791 --> 00:45:20,091
Yeah.

878
00:45:20,091 --> 00:45:23,211
So over the past year in
particular, I have been doing

879
00:45:23,211 --> 00:45:24,921
a lot more game development.

880
00:45:25,311 --> 00:45:28,851
I actually did release like my Enders
hurdles game, which was just a fun,

881
00:45:28,971 --> 00:45:30,681
Hey, could we make SpriteKit work?

882
00:45:30,861 --> 00:45:33,621
That then ended up as a, oh
dang, we got a real game.

883
00:45:33,981 --> 00:45:35,601
I finally released it.

884
00:45:35,781 --> 00:45:39,441
I moved away from SpriteKit,
and went into like goodo.

885
00:45:39,561 --> 00:45:43,701
So I did finally release it on multiple
platforms because everybody wanted me to.

886
00:45:43,811 --> 00:45:46,211
But I have been doing a lot of
game development because it's

887
00:45:46,211 --> 00:45:49,731
my, when you do mobile apps.

888
00:45:50,361 --> 00:45:52,161
Every day as a job.

889
00:45:52,701 --> 00:45:56,301
At some point you're like, I
don't wanna do mobile app in the

890
00:45:56,301 --> 00:45:58,401
evening necessarily every night.

891
00:45:58,761 --> 00:46:03,411
So I do game development because I'm
free to do whatever I want and it

892
00:46:03,411 --> 00:46:05,631
doesn't matter if I ship it or not.

893
00:46:05,681 --> 00:46:08,891
so you're talking about
Gau and Sprite kit.

894
00:46:08,921 --> 00:46:10,391
Explain to me the differences

895
00:46:10,705 --> 00:46:16,145
For those, Sprite kit is Apple's, I
call it Apple's Gaming 2D technology.

896
00:46:16,275 --> 00:46:20,365
And then of course there's
various other ones for 3D this is

897
00:46:20,695 --> 00:46:23,935
everybody kept pushing me like, you
should make this for Vision Pro.

898
00:46:23,935 --> 00:46:24,835
And I'm like, what's the point?

899
00:46:25,015 --> 00:46:26,185
Just to circle it back.

900
00:46:26,185 --> 00:46:32,695
it's their 2D gaming technology and
it is a lot harder to work with than

901
00:46:32,695 --> 00:46:35,215
it should be because it's not a game.

902
00:46:35,935 --> 00:46:41,065
Engine it is more, hey, if you wanna
make a game engine with it, you can.

903
00:46:41,065 --> 00:46:42,985
So you've gotta do all that work, right?

904
00:46:43,315 --> 00:46:46,905
But if you look at others like,
there are three that I use,

905
00:46:46,935 --> 00:46:49,390
Gado, unity and Unreal Engine.

906
00:46:49,690 --> 00:46:52,030
They are pre-built engines.

907
00:46:52,030 --> 00:46:54,280
I just have to go make my thing right.

908
00:46:54,610 --> 00:47:03,920
And interestingly doing Gadot has made me
learn, GD script, which is very close to

909
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:05,630
working with Ruby and things like that.

910
00:47:05,930 --> 00:47:10,330
And so it's huh, in fact, Jeff and I
did a compiled Swift episode recently

911
00:47:10,330 --> 00:47:14,470
where we were talking about you go do
something else and you find it has side

912
00:47:14,470 --> 00:47:17,190
benefits to your mainstream work, right?

913
00:47:17,460 --> 00:47:18,960
And so that's what happened there.

914
00:47:19,300 --> 00:47:22,830
Not Sprite Kit turned out not to
be my thing because it was taking

915
00:47:22,830 --> 00:47:24,330
too long to do basic things.

916
00:47:24,660 --> 00:47:27,150
And that's a whole other
subject about how Apples.

917
00:47:27,705 --> 00:47:32,835
Not embracing gaming platforms the way
they would like you to think they are.

918
00:47:34,045 --> 00:47:36,535
I'll say it, I say it
every time, so apologies.

919
00:47:36,775 --> 00:47:41,095
Apple, just by Unity already and make
Swift the main programming language,

920
00:47:41,425 --> 00:47:43,645
and I will back you a thousand percent.

921
00:47:43,915 --> 00:47:45,895
So Gau is a different engine,

922
00:47:46,074 --> 00:47:46,464
engine,

923
00:47:46,614 --> 00:47:48,269
but you can use Swift in it.

924
00:47:48,329 --> 00:47:53,179
you can, it's not the main language, but
there are some very smart folks out there.

925
00:47:53,279 --> 00:47:53,909
I'll find the link.

926
00:47:53,909 --> 00:47:55,049
We'll put the link in the show notes.

927
00:47:55,329 --> 00:47:57,849
you can use Swift by way of a bridge.

928
00:47:58,299 --> 00:48:02,799
the cohost on Compulsive podcast,
Jeff, he actually embraced this.

929
00:48:02,839 --> 00:48:07,309
I tried to embrace it, but it got
to that thing of I was doing too

930
00:48:07,309 --> 00:48:12,469
much work to get Swift working
before I actually made anything.

931
00:48:12,889 --> 00:48:15,739
And that to me is always the
sign that something's wrong.

932
00:48:15,919 --> 00:48:16,339
Okay.

933
00:48:16,498 --> 00:48:17,308
it's really good.

934
00:48:17,398 --> 00:48:19,018
It's coming along in leaps and bounds.

935
00:48:19,288 --> 00:48:21,568
There have been conference talks about it.

936
00:48:21,608 --> 00:48:22,298
Apologies.

937
00:48:22,298 --> 00:48:24,878
I can't remember the
gentleman's name off hand.

938
00:48:24,878 --> 00:48:25,388
Who did it.

939
00:48:25,568 --> 00:48:26,918
We'll find it for the links.

940
00:48:27,318 --> 00:48:27,948
It's really good.

941
00:48:27,948 --> 00:48:33,528
And in fact, there's also an iPad app
now that you can use to make cado,

942
00:48:33,978 --> 00:48:34,438
Oh, that's

943
00:48:34,493 --> 00:48:36,773
You mean I can code them on the iPad?

944
00:48:37,163 --> 00:48:38,003
Interesting.

945
00:48:38,063 --> 00:48:41,183
Not really something I want,
but interesting nonetheless.

946
00:48:41,513 --> 00:48:42,593
But that's what I wanna see.

947
00:48:42,593 --> 00:48:48,173
I wanna see Swift taken seriously
in these other arenas, right?

948
00:48:48,413 --> 00:48:52,913
Game development in particular, because
yeah, I can type swift a lot quicker

949
00:48:52,913 --> 00:48:54,953
than learning another language, right?

950
00:48:56,978 --> 00:48:59,278
So that's what I've been
working on a lot lately.

951
00:48:59,578 --> 00:49:00,718
I still have apps.

952
00:49:00,718 --> 00:49:03,968
I've got like my JobFinder
Tracker app, which is, swift

953
00:49:03,968 --> 00:49:07,268
and Swift data and, all the in,

954
00:49:07,358 --> 00:49:08,138
what platform.

955
00:49:08,168 --> 00:49:09,428
it's on iOS

956
00:49:09,578 --> 00:49:09,968
Okay.

957
00:49:10,957 --> 00:49:14,797
I do wanna make it multi-platform,
meaning iPad, a better iPad

958
00:49:14,797 --> 00:49:19,087
experience, true native iPad
experience and Mac at some point.

959
00:49:19,397 --> 00:49:25,097
I just don't feel it has the core
features yet that it needs to have.

960
00:49:25,307 --> 00:49:28,727
And so it's kind, that thing of,
okay, let's get one platform.

961
00:49:28,787 --> 00:49:32,657
Right now I do the interfaces
for the others because it uses

962
00:49:32,657 --> 00:49:36,197
cloud kit and everything else,
so your data goes everywhere.

963
00:49:36,197 --> 00:49:39,077
But it's just not the
experience I want it to be yet.

964
00:49:40,518 --> 00:49:40,878
Yep.

965
00:49:41,158 --> 00:49:45,513
And I will say I haven't migrated it to
Swift six 'cause I'm a little afraid.

966
00:49:46,668 --> 00:49:48,348
Peter, thank you so much for coming on.

967
00:49:48,348 --> 00:49:51,828
Sorry you won't be in California
this year, but one of these years.

968
00:49:51,948 --> 00:49:52,488
I'll have to get you

969
00:49:52,663 --> 00:49:57,173
I almost made it to deep Dish this
year, except for last minute, work

970
00:49:57,173 --> 00:49:59,903
commitments almost made it, but yes.

971
00:49:59,963 --> 00:50:00,293
Yeah.

972
00:50:00,293 --> 00:50:01,013
Thank you, Leo.

973
00:50:01,063 --> 00:50:02,353
we will make it buddy.

974
00:50:02,383 --> 00:50:05,143
We will make it and be in the
same location at some point.

975
00:50:05,223 --> 00:50:07,928
It will happen, that would be fantastic.

976
00:50:07,958 --> 00:50:11,193
But as always, thank you for
having me back on the show.

977
00:50:11,193 --> 00:50:12,423
It's always a pleasure.

978
00:50:12,823 --> 00:50:15,403
We always have so much to talk
about when we get together

979
00:50:15,823 --> 00:50:17,803
and, just thoroughly enjoy it.

980
00:50:18,043 --> 00:50:19,783
It's always interesting, so thank you.

981
00:50:21,178 --> 00:50:25,138
And we'll put links to you and
your compile swift stuff and live

982
00:50:25,138 --> 00:50:27,298
streams, et cetera, in the show notes.

983
00:50:27,298 --> 00:50:29,188
So be sure to check that out.

984
00:50:29,798 --> 00:50:34,558
Like I said, I will be, doing a special
recording Monday, June 9th to talk about

985
00:50:35,008 --> 00:50:40,138
the events of the first day at dubbed
up, special 200 episode at Community Kit.

986
00:50:40,238 --> 00:50:42,158
I'll have a link to preserve your spot.

987
00:50:42,188 --> 00:50:44,108
You do have to reserve your spot free.

988
00:50:44,688 --> 00:50:45,858
So go check that out.

989
00:50:46,458 --> 00:50:48,588
I'll be doing a panel at one more thing.

990
00:50:49,038 --> 00:50:54,218
On Tuesday, I'm gonna be showcasing
bushel at the Indie Fair Community Kit.

991
00:50:54,728 --> 00:50:56,288
So definitely check that out.

992
00:50:56,338 --> 00:51:00,068
Bushel is gonna be on sale, till the 23rd.

993
00:51:00,118 --> 00:51:06,658
we just released Bushel two
point 10, 2.10, 2.1 0.0.

994
00:51:07,018 --> 00:51:08,518
So check that out.

995
00:51:08,518 --> 00:51:13,378
We added a menu bar, we
redid the snapshot interface.

996
00:51:13,958 --> 00:51:15,308
It's really great.

997
00:51:15,308 --> 00:51:17,168
if you're gonna test out Mac Os.

998
00:51:17,558 --> 00:51:23,148
26, you'll definitely want to, grab
a copy of bushel and give it a try.

999
00:51:23,368 --> 00:51:27,858
you get 50% off if you subscribe,
for your yearly subscriptions.

1000
00:51:27,858 --> 00:51:28,998
So take a look at that.

1001
00:51:28,998 --> 00:51:30,558
I'll have links to all that stuff.

1002
00:51:31,038 --> 00:51:32,178
And the show notes.

1003
00:51:32,598 --> 00:51:36,198
If you enjoyed this episode,
please and subscribe and post a

1004
00:51:36,198 --> 00:51:38,178
review, in your podcast player.

1005
00:51:38,678 --> 00:51:42,908
Consider joining our Patreon
to get these episodes early and

1006
00:51:42,968 --> 00:51:44,438
also subscribe to our newsletter.

1007
00:51:44,468 --> 00:51:45,818
Alright, that's it.

1008
00:51:45,998 --> 00:51:48,188
We'll see you, everybody in California.

1009
00:51:48,308 --> 00:51:49,058
Talk to you later.

1010
00:51:49,058 --> 00:51:49,538
Bye.