Silvan (00:00)
Hi everyone, welcome to Long Game, a heated rivalry podcast. My name is Sylvan and I'm joined of course by Declan and we have a very special guest joining us on the podcast today. We've got Bri who is one of our long time listeners and frequent commenters on YouTube joining us. So thanks so much for coming on Bri.

Bri (00:19)
Thank you for asking.

I'm super stoked.

Silvan (00:23)
Yeah, and we're super happy to have you on and we really like, you know, the comments that you've been leaving on our YouTube videos. they've been so lovely to read right from the beginning.

Bri (00:34)
I'm happy to hear you say that because I remember I told you like I thought I was in trouble when you contacted me. I thought you were gonna tell me to tone it down. Like, dude, that's a bit much. And I know it was, but I just I I feel like

when you watch something or you read something and you're really passionate about it and it it like it gets you, and you have nobody to be like, my God, can you believe that? What the hell? Like, yeah, so this was great. Finding your podcast was just fantastic.

Declan (01:07)
Thank you so much.

Silvan (01:10)
Thank you. Yeah, it's really sweet. And that's what I've loved about sort of developing the community with everybody. we are going to be talking about part four of the book. So I think this is part nine of the podcast and we're going to be talking through chapter 23. So Declan and Bri, let's just get stuck into it, shall we?

Declan (01:31)
Absolutely.

Bri (01:33)
Let's do it.

Silvan (01:34)
So chapter starts off with Scott Hunter and the interviews and the press he does.

following the very infamous Scott and Kip kiss on the ice rink.

Bri (01:45)
The never been kissed moment when he calls Kip down from the stands.

Silvan (01:50)
I love that reference. love a Drew Barrymore rom-com, so spot on there. What struck me with this opening was there is no award speech that you get from game changers. And so that was quite interesting to not have.

Declan (02:05)
Yeah.

Yeah, I do think from the TV show, it's a nice add on to have that sort of explanation about how Scott is feeling from having come out and the sort of press that he's dealt with and able to speak on his experience and what it actually means for him because you don't really get that towards the end of his book, which is a bit of a missed opportunity, I think. I think it's nice that Jacob Tierney has decided to include that aspect in the show.

But in the book it's sort of just sort of it's alluded to you get an idea of what's discussed but you don't sort of get the detail of what could have been said even though it's a great opportunity to have some sort of like relatable moments for Shane and Ilya to sort of see and be able to relate back to. So yeah I do think it's a nice addition for the show it kind of reminds me of the the sort of flushed out version of like the

the scene with Ilya in Russia where he's speaking Russian on the phone in the show we get to hear what's said and I think that's a lot more effective yeah exactly and now that we have that more effective context you can sort of appreciate it a bit better so it's not necessarily like a bad thing it's not in the book it's more there was more that could have been added on and they took the opportunity to flush that out

Bri (03:15)
Chapter nineteen.

now I only saw the TV show, I think it was January or February. All the episodes had dropped. And then I came back from New Year's and I watched it, and I haven't seen it since. So the episodes are pretty stuck in my head, and I do picture a lot of the television show while I'm reading, because they complement each other.

And you get everything you get from the actors, but when you read the book, then you get like their their inner thoughts. And like, yeah, I really look forward to the like Ilya's perspective on things. That's fantastic. So I'm not sure, like in the beginning, this is chapter 23. And I feel like I just must have automatically gone to like he made the call, and we got to see their perspectives in the book when those phone calls were happening on the show.

And then it was like this is the chapter where we're going to the cottage. And I just I just lost my mind.

Silvan (04:31)
Yeah, exactly. And we are going to the cottage. And I think that's one of the things that I know a lot of people that I've been speaking to did whereby they went straight from the TV show. They read Heated Rivalry, the book, and then they went straight to long game. So they skipped Game Changer and they skipped all the other books in between. And now I know we're only up to Heated Rivalry on the podcast, but I feel like had you not read Game Changer, there's this whole context you would have missed.

Bri (05:01)
I loved game. And I mean like.

When freaking Scott picks up Kip in the kitchen and is like carry him like can I fuck you? Absolutely. That is just the best. I was like, and I know Kip's not like a little guy. He's pretty sturdy. Like, maybe Francois Arnot is like, is he tall in real life? Was he like, but the fact that these guys can just pick each other up and throw each other around, that's I freaking love that.

Declan (05:10)
you

Thanks.

Now, we did like episode 3 in the TV show because I think it's better than the book, to be honest, and it's more condensed and it trims a lot of the bad stuff in the book and makes it on the song a lot more coherent.

Bri (05:47)
Yes.

Silvan (05:50)
I think what I really get in the beginning of this chapter is how identical the dialogue is when Ilya gets into Shane's car, for example. He's like, what is this? And he's like, it's a Jeep and why are you driving a Jeep kind of thing? And there's, was a similarity that I'm noticing in these later chapters in Heated Rivalry where Jacob doesn't adapt or change too much here. He keeps a lot of the dialogue.

Declan (06:11)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (06:18)
very, very similar, especially in this chapter and the next few chapters. The dialogue is identical. It's almost like it's lifted straight out of the book.

Bri (06:27)
That was a moment for me, guys. I literally wrote that down where he was like, Where is he? What the fuck are you driving, Hollander? my god! Because he's right away like, you know, it's good in the snow. So then, of course, my brain's going off to my movie stuff, and I'm like, I don't know if you ever saw Tu Wong Fu.

Where the the person was like, I don't know, but if there's a snowstorm tonight, he's going on my tires. That's a movie with like Wesley Snipes and who is that? my god, Patrick Swayze, R.I.P., he embodies Miss Vita Bohem in that. And John Legwizama with Chichi Rai Riga. There's so many good lines in that movie. I got more legs than a bucket of chicken. Like I

Declan (06:57)
Ha ha.

Bri (07:17)
Freaking love to Wong Fu. It's not the fact that he needed help with the bags, right? But the fact that Ilya is described as having his

his hat pulled a little low. They're both trying to be inconspicuous and Shane is like afraid to get out of the car. And like when you pick someone up from the train station, an airport, a bus stop, whatever don't you want to like greet them, get out of your car and hug them? And that just that was like

Declan (07:45)
Hmm

And this is the thing now like if you think about it if these two do you want to try to make a relationship work without coming out this is what it's gonna have to be like like this is like a prelude to how their relationship is going to look for the next few years and And it is a little sad that this is kind of how they have to do it We have to sneak around and there's also a little bit of humor in it as well the ridiculousness of the hat and the glasses like it's so cliche, but

and they have to go for it anyway but no it does it sort of it has in the background that sort of melancholy that sort of these guys are gonna have to like do this if they want to want to be together because this is sort of like their trial run for a relationship what what's it like whenever they're together whenever they are meeting up again like how is this now going to look in the future how's their relationship gonna play out and

it's going to be secrecy, it's going to be hiding where they are, where they're hanging out, but still being able to spend time together and enjoying time together and having that humor and the hollander, do you know you're a millionaire? Like why are you driving this way?

Bri (09:00)
I love

Ilya's appreciation for cars. Like I just I'm with him on that. I get the thing. I get the snow thing and the practicality of it, but I just love that Ilya loves cars.

Declan (09:05)
Yeah, yeah.

Ilya will be driving a Ferrari in the snow, no problem.

Silvan (09:18)
I

think you're right in what you say there, Declan, in that this is a real test of their relationship, because this is the first time where they're going to have two weeks alone uninterrupted, where they don't have to hide, they don't have to shield themselves from other people, because in the book, Rachel writes two weeks alone together, you know, possibly constantly alone together. So there's this real element of

wishing and hope that you get at the beginning of this chapter where you want that for them. You want them to feel or to test out what a real relationship is going to look like. Because if you think about it, the last, what, seven or eight years, they've been hooking up here and there and they've had an hour or two here and there. It's not given them an actual basis on which to launch an actual relationship from.

Declan (10:16)
100 % yeah you can see that and I like that this is where a lot of the writing really picks up I think here is where some of the best writing in the book is and that makes sense because if she was writing this chronologically which she probably was she is just getting steadily better as it goes on she gets a better idea of where she wants to take these characters I think that speaks to what you said earlier about Jacob Tierney doesn't really need to change much in these later parts

And I think that's why it's she sort of like full flow at this point. She is putting them in the habitat that she's always sort of wanted to put them on. She's just letting it run free now about how these guys are going to be when they're together. And I imagine it was really fun to write these scenes where she's finally getting to be nice to them and to let them have what they want rather than constantly making them visual of each other. So I do really like.

these sort of up-and-coming chapters, I do think it's some of the strongest writing in the series.

Silvan (11:17)
I agree and now Brie, I want to ask you. Ilya finally gets into Shane's home. He's been wanting this for so long. What do you think that means for Ilya?

Bri (11:33)
See, we get more from the books, right? So on the TV show, you had no idea that Ilya had the same kind of inner dialogue going on that Shane did. Fantasizing, wishing, thinking, is this possible? Could this really like cause he's I don't know if he do you think Ilya was like a Playboy before he met Shane?

Declan (11:57)
Yeah, 100%. He's actually sort of known as a womanizer,

Bri (11:59)
And cause

there's some moments here where I remember putting in the notes like he's really warring with himself. And I'm like, no, this is who you are now. Like, you know, it's Shane. Like in like in Twilight when Bella's like, it's him. It's always been him. And she's talking about Edward. I don't want to hear any of this Team Jacob, Team Edward nonsense. Come on now, we know.

Declan (12:12)
you

Silvan (12:27)
Well, I like that you bring up the fact that Ilya is seen as a player or a womanizer because I feel like this is a real almost indicator of them trying out monogamy because in the scene where, in the part of the book rather, where they're talking about, know, it's been a while, it's been, you know, haven't been with anybody since you, for example, and Ilya says same.

You know, there's this real sense of they don't want to be sleeping with anybody else right now. They only want each other. Exactly. And so for me,

Declan (13:04)
Mm-hmm.

Bri (13:07)
it's not a big deal, Hollander, that they hadn't been together for months at this point.

Silvan (13:13)
But it actually is a big deal given the history.

Bri (13:16)
Hell yeah it is.

Illy is like too cool for school. That's his his thing.

Declan (13:21)
Yeah. 100%. I think that's what it is. It's just, it's the final shields. It's the final masks that he's wearing. Um, to like convince Shane that he is sort of, Oh yeah, I'm interested, but you know, not too interested. You know, it's, it's, does whatever it is. Even though his inner monologue is like, I need to have this guy. Like there is no one else at this point.

And the fact that now he's sort of setting aside that life that he used to live. In a lot of ways, actually, this is like Ilya fully committing to Shane. Like this is kind of what they've both been building up to. Like Ilya is setting aside the casual flings, the womanizing, the sort of sleeping around. He is setting aside his sort of visage, his mask that he presents to people.

and he is finally going to allow himself to open up to this guy. And I like that that's where it comes in with the, let's just be honest with each other for these two weeks. Like that is a very important thing that is established.

Bri (14:25)
I noted that I was like when Shane says that to him, I'm like, and the bargain is struck because it's two weeks, and we're gonna try to be honest with each other. And I think Ilya, he has a lot of scar tissue, so that's a tough one for him.

Declan (14:31)
No.

Silvan (14:45)
I like the way you put that because he does have a lot of scar tissue. He's been through some wars

Bri (14:50)
I see that in Ilya when we when you mentioned his his penchant for humor. I think it adds a bit of levity, but I think it's like a like a buffer. I think it's a good way for him to just kind of like lessen the intense, like when you start getting too close in that in that moment and you just need to, but that's

To his credit, because it's a way for him to stay and be present and he doesn't run away. He's there. So that's how he gets through that. That's his his mechanism, his like perseverance. I don't I don't what you call it, like a yes, bingo.

Declan (15:20)
Yeah, yeah, it's a

Silvan (15:22)
Yeah.

Declan (15:26)
Yeah. A self-defense mechanism. Yeah. And

a lot of people will talk about a self-defense mechanism, like a negative thing, like a bad thing. It's like, you're doing that because of this thing, but they actually serve a purpose. They can be really useful for protecting you in certain situations. Now, the problem occurs whenever you cannot turn it off. And then that's when the self-defense mechanism comes in issue. So for example, Ilya used humor to...

sort of protect himself from further harm from people, from emotional harm and that's sort what he needed in that moment, that distance to be able to centre himself and to be secure himself but in that he also refused to open up new connections and he carried it on for so long after the events of his childhood that now he basically has nobody especially in the book as well because there is no Svetlana really

in the book in the same capacity that she is in the show where she is like an emotional anchor for Ilya in the show whereas in the book she is literally a casual fling that connects him to Russia yeah 100 % I think was a really wise decision

Silvan (16:39)
And I think for me here, we get this. There's a hesitation from Ilya because as soon as Shane says, let's be honest for these two weeks, know, Ilya says, I can't because if I do, you'll think I'm pathetic or worse. You'll say it back. And then what the fuck are we supposed to do? So for me, there's this real hesitancy, right? They're still in it and they still want to be honest, but there's still reservation about.

Is this going to work? What is it going to look like? Because, you know, Ilya says he was infatuated. And then, interestingly, Rachel writes, it was disgusting. So there's such a juxtaposition there of the language to compare these with.

Declan (17:19)
I'm

Yeah, it's because he's just up until this point never been a romantic and now he is seeing that in himself like he wants to be a romantic like he didn't realize that you could have love like that and Now that he's found it with this guy. He's going to open up he he is opening up from his insecurities and showing Shane and I like what he says. It's like like what happens if you do accept me then what the fuck do I do?

Because they know that this is gonna be messy one way or the other it's whether or not that is enough of a sacrifice to Warrant the good to get out of the relationship because if the good out balances the bad Then they're gonna be willing to try and I think these two weeks are pretty much all it takes to convince them at that point

Silvan (18:17)
Definitely. Now, Bree, I want to ask your opinion because in the book, Shane has an indoor hockey training facility at the cottage. This is never going to happen in the TV show. They did not have. Well.

Bri (18:28)
plastic hockey rank. I should have

Googled that because I have no idea what the hell that is.

Silvan (18:32)
Well,

what do you think it means that Shane's character has a hockey rink at his actual holiday home?

Bri (18:41)
That he's filthy stinking rich and he gets to play a game and get paid for it. He's essentially like that part of his child, like it like, you know, that kid that you're always gonna be on the inside gets to just live out his dream. That the fact that he has that, I mean, mind you, I think they also did a really good job of portraying the house on the show, choosing whatever location they chose, because when you read it, you're like.

Declan (18:44)
I'm to

you

Bri (19:11)
You just see glass, so much glass, right? Windows and wood and the views of the lake. So I thought that they really did a good job because I was visualizing the television show when I was reading them inside the cabin.

Declan (19:14)
Hmm.

think with the rank in particular, I think it actually says a lot about Shane, that little thing. Like, this is his holiday home, this is where he switches off from his job, his job is hockey, whether he likes it or not. His inability to switch it off, like, that's almost an obsession.

Silvan (19:50)
But I suppose there's no distinguishing from Shane the player, from Shane the person in a way that we were talking about a couple of episodes. That person is literally one.

Declan (19:58)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's always like a present thing in his life, in a sense. And you notice Ilya doesn't have an indoor ice rink at his house. Ilya knows when to switch off. He can create separation. I think a lot of that obsessiveness is something that will come back to bite you in on the ass. And I'm saying that with a little bit of, you know, knowing how I've read ahead. But.

The obsessiveness of the sport is definitely there. And I think that your work being at home, at your holiday home, is sort of like a good example of that.

Bri (20:38)
Well, Ilya has the cars now as an adult, right? So that's something he acquired as an adult as he got older. He got away from Russia. He got like this whole other thing that he created for himself. Whereas Shane, it's like he never really had to give anything up. He just like improved upon it and made it better and got more bigger, better toys. So

Declan (20:42)
Yeah, he-

with Shane, he cannot separate his enjoyment from the sport itself. he doesn't really have over hobbies. So he doesn't. Whereas Ilya does. Ilya has his cars. Ilya has all this stuff. Like he lives like a typical like athlete, rich athlete. Whereas Shane is just like hockey. Hockey, hockey. want to be the best. Hockey is the best. And that's interesting.

Bri (21:23)
Yeah.

Silvan (21:29)
Yeah, and we see this with the books that they're both reading. Like Shane is reading books about hockey and we talked a little bit about it in the previous episode about how sort of Ilya questions like, you're a bit obsessed and Shane is like, aren't you? And it is like, not in the same way. is this separation, I think, and that's such a lovely, it's such a good way of articulating that.

So I wanted to dissect the conversation that Shane and Ilya have about Scott Hunter. Because again, here, had you not read Game Changers, you and especially that last episode of the, or the epilogue, I don't know which it is, where and Kip go to the gay club and then Ilya joins them later. And if you didn't have that backstory and you're reading this straight, you wouldn't understand

For me, how important that last chapter was in Game Changer and Kip and Scott and their relationship and definitely in terms of Scott's own advancement. to me, that was the best chapter of the book in Game Changer.

Declan (22:34)
Yeah, because it was showing the consequences of what Scott and Kip have done and then you sort of have it reoccur again in Heat It! Rivalry. It lends more weight to it because you have the context of where it's coming from and the emotion behind it. So yeah, I think it's a good thing to bring back for this because it also shows a potential future for Shane and Ilya, I think.

Silvan (23:00)
Yeah, because where this is situated in the book is very different from the TV show. know, here we get this conversation a lot earlier. However, in the TV show, we get this mention and it's a really brief mentioning When all of them are at the table and Ewan and David are there and then Ilya just happens to mention, yeah, like I spoke to Scott after the NHL Awards. So he sent an email. can't remember what it was.

So what's the significance of having Ilya visit the Game Changer world and visit Scott and Kip at that point in the club from Game Changer?

Declan (23:32)
Yeah, whenever they first come out. The fact that Ilya is brave enough to be seen there is, I think, a good indicator for his confidence in the sexuality compared to Shane. Shane would not come near that place with a ten foot pole. He just wouldn't because he would be afraid of being in any way connected to queerness at all. Like, Shane would not be seen dead in a gay club or anything like that because

The fear of getting caught is just so visceral on him, whereas Ilya is so much more relaxed about it. He really just doesn't care what people think. And that's much to his benefit. But it also means that he gets that interaction with Scott and Kip. He gets to see them in their happiness, getting their happily ever after. And that is just more ammunition to push him forward with his own sort of secret relationship. So, interesting they didn't put it in the show.

Silvan (24:32)
What's the significance of that? Why don't they put it in the show? Like, what are they trying to keep from the viewers? Is it going to come into a narrative later on, for example?

Declan (24:44)
Could have just been he ran out of time? Ran out of space? Like that, those last couple episodes are packed. Absolutely packed. And so maybe trying to get them together for a scene like that just didn't fit. Even though it would say a lot about Ilya being able to show up to that and where his thoughts are with his sexuality. So maybe the showrunners intend to have that more of like a...

like Ilya's public persona or how he wants to be perceived publicly to be a bit different than the TV show that he might have a bit more hesitance than he does in the books so maybe that's all we'll find out in the next the next season

Silvan (25:26)
Yeah, maybe. And you talked about sort of Ilya being brave. And I think that's so true because later on we see this whole conversation in another chapter about, you know, Ilya telling Shane that, you you are brave. And I think nobody gets to tell Ilya that he's brave because what he does here is hugely brave. And I wonder if there is a bit of longingness or yearning from Ilya's point where he's like, that's what I want. I want what Kip and Scott have.

I went with Scott as really, because he doesn't really know.

Declan (26:00)
Yeah, I do think that that is the motivation behind him showing up there. do get that idea that he's like wanting to view the future that he could have himself and seeing it displayed in the public way and the affectionate way that Scott kept to. I imagine it was the kick up the ass that he needed to actually try to make something with shame work.

Bri (26:31)
I did owe all that. Excellent. A plus Declan.

Declan (26:33)
Yeah.

Silvan (26:36)
Declan is our resident English teacher. Now, in this chapter, we do get a bit of the racy scenes as well. What was that like for you to read?

in terms of how this is paced in the book in this chapter specifically.

Bri (26:52)
I think my brain just jumped to when Ilya flipped over Shane's parents' photo. Do you remember that in the book? Like, I knew it was coming. It was gonna be good. Like, and I fully support that. Like, I don't you don't even want the dogs in the room. Like dog cat.

Declan (26:59)
Yeah.

Silvan (27:00)
Yeah. Yeah.

Bri (27:13)
Whatever. Everybody's gotta get out.

I love when Rachel mixes the like sweet, tender, intimate moments with like the headboard banging like that.

Declan (27:27)
Yeah, I think that's good sign, though, that that's sort of where their relationship's going at this point. It's more than just, you know, headboard buying. is supposed to be tender. It's supposed to be intimate. It's supposed to be sweet. And. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think that.

Bri (27:37)
Yes. Yes. But you get the funny moments. Like what

is is this magic mic shit? I laughed so hard when I read that. That was great.

Declan (27:48)
Yeah.

Silvan (27:52)
I almost wish Rachel wrote, because Rachel writes comedy really well. And she writes these cultural, pop culture references and weaves it in. And everyone who's listened to us from the very beginning knows I like a good pop culture reference, especially in the last episode that we recorded. And she weaves these in really well. And I think, first of all, it kind of dates the show because like, depending on which magic mic you were thinking of, of course, one, two, or three.

Bri (28:21)
The first

one. Always the first one.

Silvan (28:22)
It's exactly, so it

Declan (28:22)
Hehehehehe

Silvan (28:24)
dates the

book in a way, but I don't think that's a bad thing because I think it shows, it almost grounds the book in a cultural phenomenon.

Declan (28:34)
Yeah, it's a moment in time. That's who it is. And that little reference works. Yeah, 100%. It also adds lightness to their interactions as well. Up until this point, everyone's been quite serious with the sex. It's been like, this is gonna be hot, this is gonna be this, and this is gonna be that. But they're having fun. And if you're, as a couple, sex is supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be a little...

Bri (28:37)
I think it brings us in.

Declan (29:02)
little silly and a bit stupid and those sides are a lot more available to them now because they're becoming more comfortable around each other and because of that they're allowed to have these little interactions and I just think it's a sweeter version of them that really works I mean it's still spicy and it's still hot but it's not afraid to be tender as well and a bit fun and a bit silly

Silvan (29:28)
think you're right there because Rachel writes about, you know, I think, Ilya giving Shane like a hickey or something like that. And he says something.

Bri (29:36)
I took Umbrage with that. That was something

Declan (29:38)
What?

Bri (29:39)
that w Hickeys, you don't even know when you're getting one. Like she's making it. I wrote in my notes, I was like, no Hoover action required. This is not a painful thing. This is something where you get up the next day and you're getting ready for school and you're like, holy crap, and you gotta whip out that concealer. Like you didn't know. You had no idea you're covered in them.

Declan (30:01)
Ha ha ha.

Silvan (30:06)
Well, and that's such an interesting take. think what I got from that was Ilya was marking him and he could mark him because they were going to be uninterrupted for two weeks. So he says mine and then Shane says yours. And then they say all of this for two weeks is mine. So it's almost this branding on Shane that he doesn't have to hide what he's doing to him. He can leave his mark and he can let the world see it, even though no one gets to see it.

Declan (30:12)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Bri (30:36)
I love

that. Did you see the the culpa movies on Prime, like Culpa Mia, Kolpa Tuya, Kolpa Nuesha? Sh and she writes that, like, and he gets it tattooed, Ed Es Mio, or something like that, like your mind. That's what that made me think. I love that. There's so much stuff going on right now with like these like romance things that are popping up on every network, and I'm like sucked in now. And you know, romance wasn't my thing, it was like fantasy, like witches and

Declan (30:49)
Yeah.

Like, see you.

Bri (31:04)
Freaking warlocks and vampires and all that. Now I'm just like, man, I gotta watch that.

Declan (31:09)
I was actually just about

to bring up that exact thing in MM romance so there are obviously sub genres of MM romance and one of them is supernatural, it's fantasy, it's vampires, it's werewolves, fighting and marking someone is a big sort of like claiming moment in those kind of books it's like a marking, it's you belong to me, it's we are now fated, we are mates, we are this so it's like a little call back to that trope, that sort of like

claiming trope of leaving a mark on someone that's your mark, that's your person, that's your soulmate. the layers are there, yeah, she's obviously a fan of reading NETMEMORAMANCE herself, otherwise I suppose she wouldn't be such a good writer of it.

Bri (31:44)
Dammit and I love that. Like

Silvan (31:54)
Can I?

Bri (31:55)
I'm excited

when you mention this chapter, by the way, chapter 23. And it's because my my filthy mind went in the gutter right away. And

Declan (31:58)
you

Silvan (31:59)
Is it?

Declan (32:04)
Hahaha.

Silvan (32:04)
Well, can I

keep us there? Because I'm not done talking about sex. So on page 274, this, know, if you have children in the car or wherever you are, maybe skip the next two, three, five, 17 minutes of this podcast because they don't need to hear this. So Rachel writes, his tongue slipped into the crease of Shane's ass as his big hands pulled his cheeks apart.

Shane held his breath. He couldn't believe Ilya was actually going to, and then he says, God, Ilya. And then there's a bit of the chapter and then he says, Ilya's tongue was inside him. Now, hang on a minute, because you're telling me as a gay man, okay, they've been fucking for seven or eight years and Ilya hasn't once rimmed Shane? How is that even possible?

Declan (33:00)
I have an answer to this question.

Silvan (33:01)
Please.

Declan (33:04)
pacing. It's literally pacing. Like you need to save something for towards the end because if you give it all at once then it's boring. So whenever you're reading MM Romance you will find that the characters never just have sex the first time. They never do everything the first time. So little moments, big moments of like different types of foreplay, things like that, they begin to become scattered throughout the book and they build up and they build up and they build up. And because a lot of people like

don't rim like some people just don't want to do it it's seen as like a very like personal thing it's like a very intimate thing it's someone it's something you do with someone you really trust and so she's left before the end just as a little like see they've not done everything yet I've saved this exactly for you guys

Bri (33:54)
You guys are in boxes for me, right? So I just glanced at Sylvan's face because I was so focused on what you're saying, Declan. And Sylvan's just like

Declan (34:00)
Hahaha

you

Silvan (34:05)
I

OKAY

Bri (34:06)
So for Sylvan,

this is just a reminder that this is not real life. This is fiction. This is like when you watch a movie and the chick's running away and she's always gotta fall, or somebody does something stupid and yells, and it's like, sure, just just alert the killer where you are. Hold up a neon sign, you stupid bitch. Like, but you need this for the movie to continue. You need this for the story to keep going. Cause Sylvan's like.

Silvan (34:11)
I know it's fiction.

And I know it's fake

Like, how have you not rimmed those bubble cheeks in seven years? How has it never occurred to you? And how has Shane, also who's been with other men, how has neither of those other two men ever rimmed him? Like, come on!

Declan (34:36)
Ha

Bri (34:52)
Cause it's a it's it's it's not a memoir.

Declan (34:52)
Partners.

Silvan (34:58)
I think, I don't know,

as a gay man I read that and I actually had to stop and take a pause because I was like, wait, what do you mean he's never been rimmed? Like, hang on, is Ilya that bad a top that he has never tried?

Declan (35:13)
Did Rachel Reed not say that Ilya would be bad at sex? She said...

Silvan (35:17)
Really?

Bri (35:20)
can always bring it back to this is how you write a story or this is how you film a show. This you need you need it to wait. You need there to be what did you say in one of your previous like way back when you said the longing or the yearning that you take a reader on?

Declan (35:35)
You need long, you need yearning

to build it up. Yeah, otherwise, if you just continually put sex in, it becomes boring.

Bri (35:43)
Elephant's like he's not having any of it.

Silvan (35:44)
Get that, but no women

in seven years, really?

Declan (35:48)
Well, now they've aired it.

Silvan (35:51)
It's like the equivalent of like taking someone's virginity at the very end of a book. It's like, on, like, no.

Declan (36:00)
You're right,

this is basically like a period drama at this point.

Silvan (36:05)
Even in Bridgerton they get fingered halfway through episode 1.

Declan's never watched Bridgerton.

Declan (36:15)
never watch britterton

Silvan (36:18)
Like they do a lot of funky stuff in Bridgerton and they're supposed to be like all chased and stuff. This is set in the modern world and they've never rimmed. I just found, you know what, of all the things Rachel Reed has done that hasn't been believable, the whole Kipp and Scott thing, this to me is the most unrealistic I feel. This is the hill I will die on.

Declan (36:38)
Done.

So this is Rimmedgate, apparently.

This is serious business for Sylvan. We didn't realize that he would get so heated about this. He might need to take a few minutes. He's taken this quite personally.

Bri (36:53)
I love it. This is like Sylvan Unleashed. Yes.

Silvan (37:00)
don't know why. I don't know why this has struck such a nerve for me, but it has. But then it gets better. It gets better because Rachel writes, Unfortunately, so Shane was going to come. The realization hit him suddenly and in panic, he jerked his hips off the bed to remove any friction against his aching cock. Unfortunately, the move also caused him to smash Ilya in the face with his ass.

Has Rachel Reed never

heard of Pink Eye?

Bri (37:32)
Even thinking of that, dude. I was just like, I loved because I wrote, and we're back to last names because that never gets over me. Where like I'm like, Illy gets bashed in the face by Shane's bum. And I was he's like, what the fuck, Hollander? I'm like, my god, this super intimate moment, like Declan just said, right? They're so close at this point. They're so like up in each other's grill. Like you can't, and it's like back to surnames. That I I I

Declan (37:59)
Yeah.

Bri (38:01)
I needed a minute to keep reading because I was laughing so hard I couldn't hold the book anymore. That was fantastic. He I mean he's literally rub Rachel says he's rubbing his jaw.

Declan (38:14)
It is that it's the awkwardness it's the it's the silence it's the fun they're like They're not taking this too seriously. They're having a really good time like but they're not taking it too seriously and I like that I think that that says more about how they've developed over time. It's less like dumb daddy sort of Onlyfans porn video. It's it's like this what happens real couples. I can tell you my times my partner's

elbow me in the face or near me or whatever. Like, it just happens.

Bri (38:49)
A little comment about just how much I love the portrayal of their confidence, like they're unabashedly confident in their own skin. And rightfully so, they do have quite nice physiques. But especially with Shane talking about his kind of inexperience compared to Ilya, how he meets this guy, our trival, whatever, and he just like he leaves himself out there, you know.

Take off your clothes. Okay. He's so obedient. He just like he strips, he folds it, he puts it down. There's no like, I don't know. I like reading that where the person isn't so like inhibited. I like that about Shane.

Declan (39:22)
You

Yeah, 100%. I think I mentioned this last time as well about how Shane is only able to be this comfortable around Ilya because he trusts him so much and how Shane's worldview centers around controlling as much of his life as possible and these are the moments where he sort of lets go of control and that's why he's so respondent to Ilya because he gets something with Ilya that he doesn't really get with anybody else in his life so that's...

to what works for it.

Silvan (40:04)
Yeah, and that's such a lovely reflection there, Bri, because there is this comfort with the intimacy here now. And I think you really have to be comfortable with the person to be able to laugh whilst you're having sex or in the act. You know, it really does take that level of we're being a bit silly here and that's OK, like Declan said.

Bri (40:26)
It was just funny, right? Because in the book, Shane's like enthusiastically like thanking him. He goes from thank you to sorry, sorry in like a matter of seconds.

Silvan (40:35)
Sweet baby chain has never been rimmed before that's why he's thankful. He's experienced sensation on a whole other level

Declan (40:39)
Thanks.

Bri (40:43)
Gave me whiplash though with the like him saying thank you to my god, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. It's like it the whole mood, everything just but they recover so smoothly because they have that friendship and that that banter and all that. And it I like the way it doesn't get strange or awkward after it's just they keep on rolling. I love that.

Declan (40:54)
you

We break the tension, yeah.

Silvan (41:10)
And in this chapter, I was very much thinking about what the cottage symbolized.

For both of you, what does the quarter symbolize for you as a reader?

Declan (41:25)
cottage is a sort of symbol for Shane's life in general. Like it is him. It's hockey, it's peace, it's tranquility, it's orderly, it's clean, it's glass, it's everything. You can imagine this place is immaculate, beautiful, still, peaceful, and you have your hockey rink right next to it. It's sort of everything that Shane values in his life. The peace, the...

the order, the tranquility, and he's letting Ilya into that space, which is really quite meaningful. And Shane does say earlier in the book when he's doing his stupid TV, whatever, documentary thing, that this is where he goes to be at peace, is where he goes to relax. This is where he spends the only time that he's not doing the one thing he loves.

which is hockey, like this is where he spends his off season and he chooses to spend it in this place and now he's invited Ilya to do that as well. That's really meaningful to open up your space like that and to do it for someone who is so private, like up to this point, like Shane has not wanted Ilya anywhere near any of his spaces to the point where he literally bought an entire apartment block just to keep him separate from that part of his life.

So the fact that now at this moment in time he's willing to bring Ilya in, that's, I'm bringing you into my life. Like this is the real me. I'm letting you see the real me and what I love, what I like and the things that bring me enjoyment. So that's what I think the college actually represents. It's Shane himself.

Silvan (43:10)
Yeah. What about for you, Bri? What does does the cottage look like? What you imagined it would look like?

Bri (43:18)
Well, I based my visual from the show. So yes, I think they scouted an excellent location. But in terms of like maybe metaphorically speaking, for me, especially like what going off of Declan, like the glass, the windows everywhere, to me it was like a window into Shane's soul. So Ilya comes along and Shane's just like.

Okay, come see me. This is who I am. And it's also a bit of foreshadowing, maybe, because it's like the happy home that they could create for themselves. and Shane's parents are not too far away. Like we always know that they're pretty close by. And if you could merge that, and Shane could have his whole snow globe right there.

Declan (44:02)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's really sweet. I quite like that.

Bri (44:24)
there was even that moment when they got, was that when they got there and they were like, Yeah, we skipped over that a little bit. Shane, when they first got to the cottage and he made that comment, whatever, and Shane was now a little disgruntled, Mr. Grumpy Pants, and he was like, Well, you know, maybe we'll just make something to eat. So now, you know, like and I'm in my head thinking like, my god, please no more tuna spit. Do not be making tuna. Like

Declan (44:55)
No. Yeah, which is much better.

Silvan (44:53)
No, we get eight burgers instead.

Bri (44:54)
So

At the very

end of chapter 23, like the last two lines, after all that, right? like with this whole the intimacy, the craziness, and we we're back, we're back to freaking like last names again. They're so close. They're so like on the verge of saying the words. And it's like, it what does he say?

Silvan (45:22)
I like you, Hollander. And then I see says, I like you too, Rosanoff. But can I comment on that? So yes, we go back to the last names, but because the emotional intimacy has increased tenfold, so they're not ready to say I love you. And both of them are feeling it. I feel at this point, however, they can't say it. So the closest thing they can get is I like you. But then to take the edge off, Hollander, Rosanoff, you know that there's.

Bri (45:25)
You rose enough.

Yes.

Declan (45:47)
Mmm.

Silvan (45:50)
There's a little bit of holding back there. They can't quite get there yet.

Declan (45:54)
Yeah, it is. It's just that little bit of distance.

Bri (45:58)
That killed me at the end of chapter twenty-three. The I like you's at the end. I'm like, seriously? Good lord.

Declan (46:04)
but it's also very sweet.

Silvan (46:07)
It is, we go through a little bit of a roller coaster embed and then we end off at this really, really sweet point in the chat.

Declan (46:14)
Mm.

Well, that is all we have time for this week. Thank you so much, Bree, for joining us. It's been absolutely wonderful having you on. It's so nice to have someone who's been watching for so long come on, give thoughts and reactions to the way that you got to view the TV show and the book as well. It's a really nice perspective, so was. So thank you so much.

Bri (46:38)
So I just wanna say thank you. This was amazing. I had so much fun. I can't believe you wanted me. I'm just

Like a regular like listener. Like I like like I told S Sylvan, I like, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a film director, like I know nothing about technology. You can't DM me on anything, but do you have an email? Like I'm just yeah, I'm I'm stuck in nineteen ninety-six forever. So

Declan (47:05)
No, it's nice for us to be able to get an opportunity to speak with somebody as well that is just sort of enjoying the show from the perspective of a viewer and just a casual reader. It gives us a good idea as well of how others view it. Because we get so many different opinions, obviously, movie directors and psychologists and all these different people from all these different professions, but just seeing how the casual viewer is absorbing it is really nice. It's a really nice perspective. So thank you so much for joining us.

Silvan (47:35)
Yeah, thanks, Brie.

Bri (47:35)
Thank you.

And I love how you guys too also just so you know, bring up the like the viewing audience and the readers and how a lot of them are like

yeah, so that was one of the reasons I started listening to your podcast. It wasn't just for the content of the show, but the way you guys are so like open to hearing what all these people all over the world have to say. And you never poo-poo anybody. You're very open-minded and you love, you like welcome differing perspectives. And you know, like between people just appreciate.

Like us coming together, and I really that's just that's the best.

Declan (48:17)
you. Variety is the spice of life as they say.

Silvan (48:17)
Thank you.

Declan (48:22)
But that is all the time we have for this week. Thank you so much for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to like, to comment, and to subscribe and share wherever you are and whatever platform you're watching it. Also, if you're not already aware, we do have a fable as well, which is a book club. It's the Long Game Pod book club, and there we are making our way through different MN romance books.

At the moment we have voted on our next book which is Echoes of Us by Alex Cross which is a really great volleyball college romance. So that's a fantastic read and I'm looking really looking forward to reading that one with everyone so if that's one you want to be a part of make sure you join that but we'll see you next time and maybe we'll get through another chapter of this book.