Sarah Holtan: I wanted a passion project where I could have full
autonomy, full creative control.
I wanted to choose my guests, choose my topics.
I didn't wanna have to do all the stuff that it takes when you work for a company.
It just appealed to me, and in so many of my other work aspects of life, I
do have to work under other people.
And this was just a great way to say, okay, I can be creative on
my own and really stretch myself.
That's why I call myself the lone wolf.
Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies podcast for higher education
podcasters to learn and get inspired.
I'm Neil McPhedran.
Founder of Podium Podcast Company and Higher Ed Pods.
Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee, founder of JPod Creations.
Podcasting is broadcasting.
We want you to know you're not alone.
In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there, and
we can all learn from each other.
Neil McPhedran: You got it, Jen, and we've been talking about it for
the last few episodes and I'm gonna bring it up again, but we've got
our Slack channel on Higher Ed Pods.
Jennifer-Lee: It's a hip place to be right now.
Neil McPhedran: Sign up to be a member and part of that process.
You can join the Slack channel.
So we would love to see you there.
Jen, today we are chatting about,
Jennifer-Lee: Being a lone wolf.
Neil McPhedran: Being a lone wolf in podcasting.
That's right.
Jennifer-Lee: In Higher Education Forest.
Neil McPhedran: That's right.
We are chatting today with Sarah Holtan.
Sarah is the Assistant Provost of Academic Affairs at Carol University,
where she oversees the general education program, institutional
accreditation, and study abroad.
Sarah is also the host and sort of everything behind the podcast
called Get Down to College Business.
What a great name.
Uh, and her podcast is really specifically about addressing how
colleges can apply proven business tactics for operational excellence.
And we said the lone wolf thing off the top 'cause she called herself a lone wolf.
And we get into that actually in this episode.
Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, I really like that she gives us techniques for if you are
gonna be someone starting a podcast at a higher education institute, and
maybe you're having to do it on your own without support for the first
bit and she also goes into like what are the legalities around it, so.
Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I think it's a good episode 'cause we sort of get into
some of the nitty gritty of having a higher education podcast that is separate
from your day job and some of the advantages and disadvantages of that.
But Sarah actually was at a different institution for a number of years
where she started the podcast, again, separate from the institution,
and then when she moved to Carroll University, she took it with her.
So I think this is a great conversation and super applicable to a whole
chunk of higher education podcasters who have a podcast or are thinking
about launching a podcast separate from their University Day job.
Jennifer-Lee: Yeah.
So let's get into it.
Neil McPhedran: Let's go.
Hello, Sarah.
Great to see you again, and thanks for joining us here today for
the Continuing Studies Podcast.
Sarah Holtan: It's great to be invited and I'm looking forward to our discussion.
Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, I'm excited that we're finally interviewing people that we met
in Chicago because it's one thing to meet them face to face and then interview them.
We've been cold calling for the last year, which is great, and we made
lots of good friends on the way, but it's always nice to meet in person,
then lure you on to the podcast.
Sarah Holtan: I love that the three of us were able to
connect at the Higher Ed PodCon.
That was such an incredible way to grow my network.
Sounds like it worked the same way for you.
Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and you were one of our speakers.
Can you tell us a little bit about what you spoke about that day?
Sarah Holtan: Right, so Chris Lewis, who is another higher ed podcaster, he and I
had a joint session and we talked a bit about the art of strategic storytelling
and how to ask questions of your guests.
So particularly targeted toward the type of format where you bring in a guest and
you're really trying to get at a topic a little bit more in depth and how to
use storytelling techniques to kind of pull the best out of your guest and make
you both shine and make it interesting for the audience that it's, you know,
it's natural, conversational, fun.
One of our biggest techniques really, that we kept talking about, which came
up the whole day of other presenters too, was just the art of listening.
And I think you guys probably noticed that too, right?
Like you have to be so present when you're interviewing someone because
you even zone out for a moment, they could say something that really you
should have followed up on, and you just don't wanna miss those opportunities
when you're doing an interview.
Jennifer-Lee: Listening is the biggest skill that people don't
do when doing an interview.
I know we've, we broke these rules on our podcast.
I've definitely broken them throughout my career, but I also would agree that,
and I would like your opinion on this, don't ask, tell us about your journey.
Don't ask, tell us about yourself.
Like everybody does it on a podcast.
Sarah Holtan: So do you want me to tell you about myself?
Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, but see that would've been a great way
to lead into, it's different.
So take it away.
Sarah Holtan: I'd be happy to.
So actually, I love that you guys allow your guest to frame it up for themselves.
That way they get to kind of shape and influence like what's put out
there versus just a standard bio.
So I'll start with why I was invited here, which is that I
am a podcast host and producer.
I have a podcast titled Get Down to College Business.
It's intended for college leaders who are looking to upskill themselves.
And so they're looking for bite-sized, accessible pieces of information that
share lessons from other higher ed leaders and business leaders as well who
have figured something out or maybe have thought about or operated differently.
And so the topics range anything from employee wellbeing to change management
to using AI in your everyday workload to blowing up your budget model.
So how do we do our work better in higher ed?
And then these other hats that I wear, I also have a day job.
I'm an assistant provost at Carroll University, which is in a
suburb of Milwaukee in Wisconsin.
Right now I'm overseeing the general education program as well
as our institutional accreditation.
Then beyond that, I get to wear another hat.
I co-own construction supporting businesses, and so that was my family
business that I grew up in, and now I'm an owner and on the board.
And so I still kept a foot in business, which I think all my
previous careers, including my first career in the media, kind of came
together into this one podcast.
And so that's the easy, short version of who I am and my journey.
Neil McPhedran: That's great.
Thanks for sharing that with us.
It's funny, I find, especially in the podcast space, we end up chatting
with folks like yourself who are doing a lot of different things.
So many people we've interviewed that are doing a bunch of things.
And so when did you launch Get Down to College Business?
Sarah Holtan: So the first episodes aired in January of 2023.
So as we're recording this in mid to late August, 2025, it's
been about two and a half years.
Little more than that.
I've got, I think, 60 some episodes published.
I do twice a month.
That's about what I can handle.
It's kind of an on the side thing, which I love.
It's my passion, but it's hard for me to do more than that.
So I committed to the two per month with a couple of summer hiatuses, and
that's been a good cadence for me.
Neil McPhedran: That's great.
And when you say committed, you committed to yourself to do that?
Sarah Holtan: I did commit to myself.
There's no one I report to, so I appreciate that distinction.
I think it was more to my audience though, too, so they
would feel like it was reliable.
And when I do take a break, I try to inform them on my social media,
like, I'm gonna dip out for a minute.
I'll be back at this time.
So that anyone who I guess really cares could find out that I'm coming back.
I think that's one of the things that I've learned about podcasts is like
you can get really into them and all of a sudden they just stop and you
have no idea if they're coming back.
And I always get sad.
I'm like, are they coming back?
I don't know.
Jennifer-Lee: Well, that's something that we talk about all the time is making sure
that you tell your listeners where you're going because compared to other mediums
that we do, podcasting is very loyal.
Like you have a bond with them.
We wanna know where you go.
Sarah Holtan: Agreed.
Neil McPhedran: Yeah.
No, I agree.
And I appreciate that.
I said committed to yourself and you expanded that to
committing to the audience.
And I think you're totally right and we say this, we've said this on this
podcast, but we also say it to our other podcasts that we are involved with.
It's really about communicating to the audience and it's setting up
that cadence and sticking to it, and then if you're gonna vary from
it, it's just really about having that conversation with the audience.
Saying, this is what's happening.
I'm going for two weeks, or I'm just gonna have to do it every three weeks for the
time being, you know, so on and so forth.
I think as long as you're communicating to the audience, I
think, and that's a really good tip.
Sarah, when we were chatting with you, you referred to yourself, and I thought
this was super interesting, as a lone wolf podcaster in higher education.
Do I have that right?
Can you sort of unpack that a little bit for us?
Sarah Holtan: Sure.
Absolutely.
I did say that.
I do feel like a lone wolf, only because my podcast, while it's about
higher education and I work in higher education, the two are separated.
And so I don't have an institutional podcast that I host and produce.
I chose deliberately to do a separate one and separate it out
from the institution where I work.
I did that primarily because podcasting is my passion.
I wanted a passion project where I could have full autonomy, full creative control.
I wanted to choose my guests, choose my topics.
I didn't wanna have to do all the stuff that it takes when you work for a company.
It just appealed to me and in so many of my other work aspects of life, I
do have to work under other people.
And this was just a great way to say, okay, I can be creative on
my own and really stretch myself.
That's why I call myself the lone wolf, is because the two are
not tied together, even though there is overlap in the content.
Jennifer-Lee: And this is becoming more common even with people doing
things for their own personal brand and their passion projects and stuff.
A lot of companies and institutions are starting to crack down more onto like what
you're doing, what you're broadcasting.
Do you ever feel like you kind of have to watch what you say even
though podcasting is not regulated because it could reflect on future
job opportunities or your current one?
Sarah Holtan: Jen, I'm gonna answer that from a general perspective.
So communication's my discipline and my background.
I watch what I say all the time no matter what.
So I think we're coming of age in an environment, in a culture, in
which words matter more than ever.
And there you do wanna get your words right.
So I think I would watch what I say no matter what, even
if I didn't have a day job.
I will say though, that.
It's only been beneficial to understand the priorities of higher ed.
That helps me understand what kinds of topics should be addressed.
Where do colleges maybe need some more solutions or ideas?
So I think it's been more helpful.
I will say though, that.
In order to keep things separate and just to protect anybody, I do have a waiver
that my guests sign that just simply says that it's Sarah and Sarah's company
that I'm speaking to, that I understand that this is separate from a formal
organization other than Sarah and her company, and that they understand that.
It just helps 'cause I have my podcast under an LLC, so it creates
a layer of separation that I think is just smart with anything.
I mean, that's just how people operate businesses nowadays.
When podcasting becomes more heavily regulated, I think then
we'll just put more control measures into protect all of us.
It's a two-way protection.
It's not just protecting me from someone or someone being protected from me.
I think it's a mutual scenario.
Jennifer-Lee: I think that's so important and it's something that we don't really
discuss a lot because even though a lot of people are talking to their podcast is
from the institution, a lot of them have never talked about any type of waiver
or anything that they've had to sign.
And I know it's becoming a more popular thing to do in podcasts,
but it's great to hear that.
Sarah Holtan: And really my goal is to make everybody more informed, everyone
should sound good at the end of the day.
I've never gone into an interview thinking, Ooh, I'm
gonna get them on something.
That is just not my style in general.
I'm here to give back and have an impact.
I want my guests to sound as good as they can.
I want me to sound as good as I can and for people to listen
and enjoy listening to it.
I'm not a shock jock type at all.
Neil McPhedran: Fair enough.
I, I am interested in digging further into this separation of
your day job versus your podcast.
I think this is really interesting and is super applicable for a
portion of our audience for sure.
One thing I thought was interesting, and I think what I heard you say
was that although your podcast is separate from your assistant provost
role, it is quite aligned though from what you do actually there.
You mentioned that sort of an advantage of doing the podcast.
You've learned things from it or you've had conversations from it,
so on and so forth that have played into your role as assistant provost.
Sarah Holtan: Yeah, absolutely.
It's actually both ways.
So I think my topic ideas are often sparked, not always, but often
sparked by what I'm seeing at work.
Like, gosh, what, when do we change a budget model?
When is the best time to change a budget model?
I don't even know.
So then I'll start looking at it and then all of a sudden I'll find
someone who's written about it, posted something really interesting.
I'll reach out to them and then I'll learn about it.
So like that's an example of an upcoming podcast episode that I'm working on.
It's like, yeah, I don't know under what conditions it's a good idea to change a
budget model versus when you shouldn't and just stay with your status quo.
And so I feel like it's my own professional development.
But I don't know that I would've had that topic idea without my day job
because it had come up in meetings and people were talking about it, and
I just didn't know enough about it.
So I do think it ends up being like a symbiotic relationship where I understand
maybe what could make a good topic.
Then I start investigating it.
Then I learn from my guest and whatever they wrote or whatever they talked about,
and then I can bring it back and utilize it and think about like, okay, maybe
when I'm in the next meeting, I'll be able to have a more informed opinion.
Neil McPhedran: And then when you launched the, the podcast, you were actually at a
different school at that time, correct?
Maybe you could take us through that process.
I wanted to launch a podcast.
I wanted to keep it separate from my day job.
Maybe help us go through that process with you.
'Cause I think there's probably a couple things we can learn.
Sarah Holtan: So in my last institution, I worked there for 22 years, and in my 21st
year I got to cherry pick my projects.
I was special advisor to the president.
I also had a teaching rank and title.
I just had the best job.
But I'll tell you, when you're at a place for more than 20
years, you have shortcuts.
And you have social capital, so you get your job done fairly efficiently.
You know who does what, how to get your job done.
And I just felt like even though my job was really good, I had
more in me and I was like, where do I put this extra energy?
And so then I was starting to get into podcasts and I'm
like, I couldn't maybe do this.
I should do it.
And then that's self-doubt kicks in and you're like, well, maybe I shouldn't.
Maybe I should wait.
Maybe my institution will do it.
And then the more I thought about it, the more I was like,
this is just go big or go home.
And if you fail and you'll be fine, you'll recover.
No one knows who you are so your reputation isn't much to risk, right?
And I just felt like if I could do it myself I could do it exactly under
my vision, and I think that's what I was actually craving at that time.
Although I don't know if I would've been as self-aware of that as I am
now, but it was like I needed my own passion project in order to really
make that vision come to life.
As I mentioned earlier, when you work on teams for someone else, it's
just a different level of autonomy.
Everything gets checked, triple checked, kicked around the
can, modified, compromised, whatever, and that's good too.
That works for many large sized projects and it's totally appropriate, but I felt
like I could be a little speedboat and maybe get through things faster and kind
of just do it and just my own challenge.
So I think it was for personal reasons really.
I also really wanted to start building my own personal brand.
I am not old enough to start thinking seriously about retirement,
but it is on the horizon.
And so what kind of fun things could I do in retirement that sets me up for that?
How do I build my network beyond my current institution?
That's the best, I mean, I wouldn't have met you two if I
hadn't done, you know, a podcast.
People like you and some of the other people in our Ed Up community,
they just wouldn't have been in my radar if I had stayed within
the confines of an institution.
So it was really just personal preference.
Jennifer-Lee: And you mentioned the Ed Up community.
Can you tell our listeners a little bit about what that is
and why you're a part of it?
Sarah Holtan: Okay.
So there's two names you need to know.
When we think about the Ed Up community, it's Elvin Freytes and Joe Sallustio.
They're the co-founders of the Ed Up experience.
They built it from scratch.
It's an amazing podcast.
Launching into different kinds of media.
They basically started from ground up and then they created this
community of other podcasts that they've invited in to be a part of an
affiliation or association with 'em.
And so they invited me into their network about a year and a half ago.
So I've been part of their association for about that long, and it's
been wonderful 'cause they open doors, we support each other, we
take our challenges to each other.
Like, Hey, how would you guys solve this?
How would you work through that?
So again, it's another community that I don't think I would've ever had in my
network if I hadn't done this podcast.
Neil McPhedran: That's great.
Yeah, great guys, obviously.
Gotten to know them pretty well over organizing pod with them.
Jennifer-Lee: So they can do anything.
Neil McPhedran: Yeah, absolutely.
I've experienced that firsthand.
Jennifer-Lee: For anyone that doesn't know they were your partners
in crime for creating PodCon.
Neil McPhedran: Yeah, exactly.
We met them online and we worked together online for months and months and months.
It was really cool to meet them in real life in Chicago.
So when you were launching your podcast, you did go to your institution
and said, Hey, I'm doing this.
So maybe just sort of go through that process for us.
Sarah Holtan: Yeah, so I did approach my supervisor at the time and said,
Hey, this is what I'm thinking.
Here's why I plan to do it.
Here's how I will protect both of us, which is to put it under an LLC.
I'm gonna have waivers.
They all knew me enough, I think, to have the trust to say, oh,
this could only benefit us.
So they were cheering me on from the sidelines, and in fact, some
of my first handful of guests were from that institution,
right, because who else knew me?
Especially before you have your podcast, trying to find guests to
go on this non-existent podcast is quite interesting though.
They've been all fully supportive and it was great, but I think
everyone felt comfortable having that layer of separation just in case.
I think just being cautious by nature, it doesn't hurt.
There's no disadvantage to keep a level of separation.
But there could be potential disadvantages to not having separation and maybe
blurring lines if your institution didn't love the final product, or maybe the topic
wasn't conducted in a way they would've aligned with their goals and priorities.
So I think having that layer of separation and having the agreement upfront made
everyone feel much more comfortable.
Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, always do your homework and to make sure, you know,
like you can always access lawyers.
It's better to ask the questions and get yourself into something down the
road that's gonna affect your career.
Sarah Holtan: Absolutely, yes.
I, I didn't mention that, but I did have formal legal advice as well.
Again, just as a layer of protection, and I felt like the investment
upfront was worth it, just in case.
Like I said, I'm kind of cautious by nature, so I would rather just know
what I'm getting into and what could be potential minefields and then
try and mitigate any of that risk.
Thankfully I haven't had any trouble, so.
Jennifer-Lee: But I think it's important too because it's something
as we're creating our own brands, and this goes for anyone doing podcasting
similar to you and it's not just in the higher education space, is
really protecting what you've built.
'Cause it's your podcast and so you don't want to get to the point where, you know,
someone takes your podcast from you too, because you don't officially own it,
because you go together with another type of partner or another institution.
So I think it's just protecting what you've built.
Sarah Holtan: Amen.
Jen.
I was hearing a couple of stories about that, unfortunately,
when we were at Higher podcast.
Yes.
That they thought the podcast was their own because they were
the ones doing the work on it.
And then it turns out it's not actually owned by 'em.
So mine fortunately, is all squared away that I own it.
Neil McPhedran: Well, and that it afforded you the ability now that you're at the
Carroll University, you took your podcast with you 'cause it's yours and there was
no sort of weirdness, grey area there.
Because if you hadn't and that, that would've been a bit of a weird one.
If you hadn't sort of done that, that might have a tricky one to take it
with you when you go to your new gig.
Sarah Holtan: I don't think you would.
Neil McPhedran: Yeah.
Sarah Holtan: I think you'd have to start over to be honest.
Jennifer-Lee: Well, and that's the hard part is, and this is a good
lesson for anybody going in the higher education space, it's okay
to do one that's institute focused.
Just be aware when you have those conversations.
If you have planned to take this with you later on, you might not be able to.
And make sure it's, if you want it to keep it separate, it's not the
title of the university or whatever.
But these are conversations that we're all learning because
podcasting is still relatively young.
So it's good things to think about when you're approaching your institution or
your business, and if you wanna be a big part of it in the future, you gotta
figure out where that all fits, right?
Sarah Holtan: And I would add to that, there's plenty of advantages
to having an institutional podcast versus being a lone wolf like me.
I think about like just the time it takes to do the podcast.
I mean, that's all in my own time.
That is not built into my work schedule.
The funding for the podcast is self-funding through my sponsorships
and through my other work.
You start from scratch with your listener base, right?
Because you're a single person versus affiliated with an institution
that might already have a social media following or have other
networks that they can draw from.
So there's plenty of advantages to doing an institutional podcast, for sure.
Neil McPhedran: Yep.
I would sort of just on this point here, because I think it's a good
one, Jen and I are going through a process with another podcast right
now where they had been doing it with the school for five years and then the
funding just disappeared basically.
And the institution stopped paying for the hosting and they're like,
well, hang on a second, right?
It's MBA associated.
And so they'd baked it into coursework and everything, so they went through a
process of then trying to get it back from the school so they could take
it on and carry forward themselves.
And I think that, Jen knows more than I about sort of that, but
it's, it was a tricky situation.
Jennifer-Lee: It wasn't easy either.
Neil McPhedran: Yeah, it wasn't easy.
And then now like, and then who owns the RSS feed?
And so I think the point here is whether you're doing what you are doing, Sarah,
which is like you, this was your thing and you went to your institution.
You said, this is what I'm doing.
Here it is upfront.
You got legal advice and you started up an LLC and you did it that way, or
you're doing it with your institution.
Having the conversation early on makes a lot of sense.
'Cause I think either way things can go funny.
Jennifer-Lee: And it's really hard when you start and you're
the host of the podcast too.
Neil, I have interviewed other institutions where the podcast
stays and the hosts change.
And that's fine.
But if you put all your, your own sweat equity in it, obviously the
university or college has put in dollars.
With podcasting, it's so hard, but you have all these things and like
gaining your ownership is so important.
Like I've had people come to me in different respects, they're
like, oh, well it's okay.
We have all our episodes.
We'll just restart it on another platform.
I said, no, you're gonna compete with your ghost.
And nobody talks about competing with your ghost.
And like with your website, like Sarah, you've been doing
your podcast for how long now?
Sarah Holtan: Two and a half years.
Jennifer-Lee: Two and a half years.
You haven't been on that long, but two and a half years, you probably
have a lot of potential SEO behind the scenes that you don't know.
So if you were to lose that tomorrow, it, it's hard.
Neil McPhedran: Maybe we just sort of dig into a little bit more, some of
the advantages, disadvantages of, or maybe an another way to put it, share
some pro tips with us here for going it alone and launching your own podcast,
what would you say are some key things?
Sarah Holtan: All right, so when I think about some pro tips, like things
that, if I had the wisdom two and a half years ago when I started, I think,
and everybody said it to me, but I don't know that I took it a hundred
percent seriously, was this idea of setting your goals beyond monetization.
And I was like, oh, sure.
Like, yeah, I get it.
But really to keep yourself motivated, whether you're a lone wolf or even if
you're connected to the institutional podcast, so say someone taps you on the
shoulder and says, can you work on this?
Or can you start one up for us?
And so I think in higher ed, it's gonna resonate with a lot of your
listeners to have the goal of impact.
Like, what am I giving back to this community?
You know, am I uplifting and highlighting our alumni, our students, our
faculty, staff, our administrators.
Am I providing new content for this space?
Am I helping all of us grow professionally and build our network and make new
marketing tactics that land well with the constituents that we wanna pull in?
Like have those goals and then just kind of always have them
as North Star and a work toward.
And again, it's so obvious, and I know other people have said it, but I don't
know that I took it fully seriously.
Now that I really do, it's for me, impact is the number one goal that I have.
And then building my personal network, right?
So beyond just the confines of my institution and the other spaces
that I work in, there's networks I've developed through podcasting that
I would not have had any other way.
And it seems like everyone kind of introduces you to somebody
else and you realize that like the higher ed community is not as big
as I once thought it was, right?
A lot of us are connected in some way, so that's been amazing.
I also do it for professional development.
I love to learn, but I fully acknowledge that reading all the books and the
articles, I just have limited time.
Y'all probably do too, but we all can do a podcast while doing something
else, while driving my kids to soccer and going grocery shopping
and exercising and commuting.
So you're able to essentially learn while you're doing something else.
And so I think the professional development piece of podcasting
has been super, you know, on the forefront of one of my goals.
So just really considering your goals.
I think also for many of us in higher ed, I have a media
background, but I was never on air.
I was a producer, and so not having my on air skills developed very well.
Just practice and you don't even need to actually be interviewing a real guest,
like interview your friend or your kid or the dog or yourself and just record
it on whatever virtual platform you use.
And then force yourself to listen to it.
You get so much better.
I still make myself listen to my episodes.
I know some people don't, but I think I get better faster.
And then one other tip that I would love to share with you guys is just
really read about podcasting expertise.
They don't have to be higher ed podcasters, just whoever you admire.
There's other podcasters that do their shows on it.
There's books, there's articles.
You know, any of that will help you get better 'cause other people have
learned through trial and error.
So if you can minimize your trial and error phase, you'll
have more fun with it too.
Oh, and this is controversial because I know a lot of podcasters on our
shoestring budget, and maybe it sounds extravagant, but if you can hire some
of the technical side to be done.
So I rent a studio.
I do all the upfront work.
But I do not hit the record button and I do not have to do the post editing myself.
And I just, in my mind, that is money well spent.
Because I'm not good at the technical side, and to be honest,
I don't wanna spend the time on it.
That's where I would probably fall off my consistency train is if I
had to sit down and post edit and then, you know, do all the things to
make it go into the podcast world.
So if you can afford it, do it, because I really think it makes a difference.
Neil McPhedran: I do really appreciate your point, Sarah, and I completely agree.
Even if over time you think you can take on more and more of the podcast,
upfront, getting some help, whether in those areas that you are not interested
in or not in your wheelhouse is going to be helpful for you in the long run.
And even if that is in the short term, getting that help and then
learning it properly so then you can run with it yourself, I
think is definitely invaluable.
'Cause you know, back to the cadence and keeping going, and people who try
to tackle it all themselves and learn it all themselves, those are the ones
I think that experience the pod fade and just give up kind of a thing.
Sarah Holtan: And it's easy to give up, right?
If it's not tied to your job.
It could be, again, you have to know what your goals are and your motivation, so
that will keep you sustained for a while.
But it will also be the thing that goes if it can't, right?
If you hit particularly busy or trying part of your life, that's
gonna be the extra that you give up.
And so having that help can be the difference between keeping it going.
And I don't know if you guys have found this to be true, but you really
have to put a lot of episodes out there before it starts to pick up and
there's some traction and some momentum.
I would say the first 20 to 30 episodes that I made just kind of seemed they
were there and I had a slow growth.
And all sudden right around 35, 38, I was like, oh, okay, now
the members are looking good.
And then by 50 some it was in a totally different place.
So it's almost like that flywheel effect.
So sustaining your ability to do it, if it means having to hire out pieces
of the podcast, it is gonna be well worth it if you wanna keep it going.
Jennifer-Lee: And don't get upset with the numbers.
I've seen a lot of cool things happen with really teeny audiences.
But be consistent.
Yeah, maybe you have low numbers compared to Joe Rogan, but you're doing it again
for like different reasons and goals.
So if you align yourself to your reasons and goals, you're gonna be fine.
Quick question for you before we go, because I know we gotta wrap this up
soon, is you talked about monetization.
Not a lot of people talk about that here on this show.
Can you tell what you did to get monetization?
Sarah Holtan: I'm not a natural sales person, so that is
something that I'm growing in.
It doesn't come naturally to me.
So again, area of growth, getting better at it all the time and
more comfortable, 'cause it's like I want my product out there.
'Cause I really do believe people are learning from it and that
there's really good things happening for the people who are listening.
So I believe in it, but you know, it's different to kind of sell yourself, right?
Yeah, so there's two ways that I make money and I, I make enough to keep going.
I cannot quit the day job.
I'd say probably most of your guests don't need to monetize it, right?
That wouldn't,
Neil McPhedran: Very, very few.
Sarah Holtan: Yeah.
That's probably unusual.
Okay, so yeah, so direct sponsorships.
So sponsorships of like that are basically ads I call 'em.
I have one that's a pre-roll right now, so you'll hear it before
the rest of the episode starts.
So it's people who've signed on that said, we wanna be in front of your audience.
And then the other way to do it that I'm working on is that my guests
are actually contributing to, like compensating me to be on there.
But they do have, we co-create the content.
So I really am careful to protect the integrity of this show.
I want my listeners to get value, so I do not accept the type of guest that
is only going to have a commercial.
I don't want that.
I do want though, like people who are in education or adjacent to education and
have something really valuable to offer and they want to be in front of my guests.
They want their spokesperson, so you know, whoever they appoint from
their company to make it on my show.
But they weren't on my radar for whatever reason, wasn't familiar
with them, so that they have a chance to be in front of my audience.
As, as the creative control person, I try to make sure that
there's tons of value in it.
Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I know that the Ed Up guys chatted about that.
Joe was sort of taking me through that.
Sarah Holtan: Oh yeah.
That's where I got the idea from.
Neil McPhedran: Okay, great.
I think we covered a number of things here today, Sarah, and I really
appreciate you joining us and giving us some insights into what you've
created, and I think it's just excellent.
We really appreciate it.
Sarah Holtan: Thank you, Neil and Jen, and thank you for all that you
do to put out more information in an accessible format for the listeners.
Jennifer-Lee: Thank you so much.
Neil McPhedran: Jen, that was great conversation with Sarah.
I really enjoyed that.
I think there's some super applicable tips and things that we can be doing
for our higher ed podcast and sort of figuring out how to keep church and
state separate from your day job at the institution, but still be in this
world of higher education podcasting.
Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and I think another great tip from her was that,
really, if you're thinking of doing a podcast, make sure that you are
having the discussions with, uh, the institute that you're working with.
Because as we mentioned, sometimes when it comes down to ownership
no one knows who owns the podcast.
So if somebody helps build it up and they leave that institute and they put all the
work into it, who gets ownership of it?
So I think that was a really interesting that, that we never
really talked about before.
Neil McPhedran: The podcast prenup basically.
Jennifer-Lee: Podcast prenup.
I like that.
Neil McPhedran: Now that I'm thinking about it after it kind of is, right?
Like you go into a relationship, it's all hunky dory.
You know, you're not thinking about it ending, but stuff happens.
Jennifer-Lee: And you both put work into the relationship, care.
Neil McPhedran: That's right.
Right, right.
It very much is that.
So, some really good practical insights to apply to the podcasting
space in the higher education world.
So Jen, I think let's leave it there.
Jennifer-Lee: Thank you for tuning into the Continuing Studies podcast, the
podcast for higher education podcasters.
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