WEBVTT 00:00:00.090 --> 00:00:03.060 Sarah Holtan: I wanted a passion project where I could have full 00:00:03.060 --> 00:00:06.150 autonomy, full creative control. 00:00:06.180 --> 00:00:09.600 I wanted to choose my guests, choose my topics. 00:00:10.110 --> 00:00:16.379 I didn't wanna have to do all the stuff that it takes when you work for a company. 00:00:16.705 --> 00:00:22.195 It just appealed to me, and in so many of my other work aspects of life, I 00:00:22.195 --> 00:00:24.145 do have to work under other people. 00:00:24.145 --> 00:00:27.685 And this was just a great way to say, okay, I can be creative on 00:00:27.685 --> 00:00:30.085 my own and really stretch myself. 00:00:30.415 --> 00:00:32.335 That's why I call myself the lone wolf. 00:00:35.065 --> 00:00:38.095 Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies podcast for higher education 00:00:38.095 --> 00:00:40.194 podcasters to learn and get inspired. 00:00:40.765 --> 00:00:41.725 I'm Neil McPhedran. 00:00:42.135 --> 00:00:46.065 Founder of Podium Podcast Company and Higher Ed Pods. 00:00:46.545 --> 00:00:48.945 Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee, founder of JPod Creations. 00:00:48.945 --> 00:00:50.625 Podcasting is broadcasting. 00:00:50.625 --> 00:00:52.125 We want you to know you're not alone. 00:00:52.455 --> 00:00:55.334 In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there, and 00:00:55.334 --> 00:00:56.685 we can all learn from each other. 00:00:58.155 --> 00:01:01.099 Neil McPhedran: You got it, Jen, and we've been talking about it for 00:01:01.099 --> 00:01:04.595 the last few episodes and I'm gonna bring it up again, but we've got 00:01:04.595 --> 00:01:08.015 our Slack channel on Higher Ed Pods. 00:01:08.015 --> 00:01:10.325 Jennifer-Lee: It's a hip place to be right now. 00:01:10.595 --> 00:01:14.705 Neil McPhedran: Sign up to be a member and part of that process. 00:01:14.765 --> 00:01:16.745 You can join the Slack channel. 00:01:16.745 --> 00:01:20.075 So we would love to see you there. 00:01:20.615 --> 00:01:24.030 Jen, today we are chatting about, 00:01:24.785 --> 00:01:26.255 Jennifer-Lee: Being a lone wolf. 00:01:26.735 --> 00:01:27.845 Neil McPhedran: Being a lone wolf in podcasting. 00:01:27.845 --> 00:01:28.475 That's right. 00:01:28.565 --> 00:01:29.315 That's right. 00:01:31.115 --> 00:01:32.705 Jennifer-Lee: In Higher Education Forest. 00:01:32.795 --> 00:01:33.425 Neil McPhedran: That's right. 00:01:33.815 --> 00:01:37.765 We are chatting today with Sarah Holtan. 00:01:38.255 --> 00:01:44.165 Sarah is the Assistant Provost of Academic Affairs at Carol University, 00:01:44.465 --> 00:01:49.089 where she oversees the general education program, institutional 00:01:49.089 --> 00:01:52.419 accreditation, and study abroad. 00:01:52.809 --> 00:01:58.839 Sarah is also the host and sort of everything behind the podcast 00:01:58.839 --> 00:02:01.830 called Get Down to College Business. 00:02:02.160 --> 00:02:02.809 What a great name. 00:02:03.339 --> 00:02:08.410 Uh, and her podcast is really specifically about addressing how 00:02:08.410 --> 00:02:14.470 colleges can apply proven business tactics for operational excellence. 00:02:14.650 --> 00:02:19.075 And we said the lone wolf thing off the top 'cause she called herself a lone wolf. 00:02:19.375 --> 00:02:21.924 And we get into that actually in this episode. 00:02:22.315 --> 00:02:26.545 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, I really like that she gives us techniques for if you are 00:02:26.545 --> 00:02:31.105 gonna be someone starting a podcast at a higher education institute, and 00:02:31.105 --> 00:02:37.304 maybe you're having to do it on your own without support for the first 00:02:37.304 --> 00:02:42.135 bit and she also goes into like what are the legalities around it, so. 00:02:42.405 --> 00:02:45.405 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I think it's a good episode 'cause we sort of get into 00:02:45.405 --> 00:02:51.674 some of the nitty gritty of having a higher education podcast that is separate 00:02:51.674 --> 00:02:58.095 from your day job and some of the advantages and disadvantages of that. 00:02:58.330 --> 00:03:01.570 But Sarah actually was at a different institution for a number of years 00:03:01.570 --> 00:03:04.720 where she started the podcast, again, separate from the institution, 00:03:04.720 --> 00:03:08.410 and then when she moved to Carroll University, she took it with her. 00:03:08.410 --> 00:03:12.400 So I think this is a great conversation and super applicable to a whole 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:18.610 chunk of higher education podcasters who have a podcast or are thinking 00:03:18.610 --> 00:03:23.549 about launching a podcast separate from their University Day job. 00:03:23.910 --> 00:03:24.179 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah. 00:03:24.179 --> 00:03:25.709 So let's get into it. 00:03:26.040 --> 00:03:26.609 Neil McPhedran: Let's go. 00:03:27.630 --> 00:03:28.290 Hello, Sarah. 00:03:28.290 --> 00:03:31.709 Great to see you again, and thanks for joining us here today for 00:03:31.709 --> 00:03:33.420 the Continuing Studies Podcast. 00:03:33.869 --> 00:03:36.630 Sarah Holtan: It's great to be invited and I'm looking forward to our discussion. 00:03:37.035 --> 00:03:40.485 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, I'm excited that we're finally interviewing people that we met 00:03:40.485 --> 00:03:44.985 in Chicago because it's one thing to meet them face to face and then interview them. 00:03:44.985 --> 00:03:47.895 We've been cold calling for the last year, which is great, and we made 00:03:47.895 --> 00:03:51.815 lots of good friends on the way, but it's always nice to meet in person, 00:03:51.915 --> 00:03:53.855 then lure you on to the podcast. 00:03:54.315 --> 00:03:56.055 Sarah Holtan: I love that the three of us were able to 00:03:56.055 --> 00:03:57.925 connect at the Higher Ed PodCon. 00:03:57.945 --> 00:04:01.665 That was such an incredible way to grow my network. 00:04:01.725 --> 00:04:03.555 Sounds like it worked the same way for you. 00:04:04.089 --> 00:04:06.220 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and you were one of our speakers. 00:04:06.220 --> 00:04:09.399 Can you tell us a little bit about what you spoke about that day? 00:04:09.459 --> 00:04:14.920 Sarah Holtan: Right, so Chris Lewis, who is another higher ed podcaster, he and I 00:04:14.920 --> 00:04:20.110 had a joint session and we talked a bit about the art of strategic storytelling 00:04:20.440 --> 00:04:22.750 and how to ask questions of your guests. 00:04:22.780 --> 00:04:28.930 So particularly targeted toward the type of format where you bring in a guest and 00:04:28.930 --> 00:04:32.500 you're really trying to get at a topic a little bit more in depth and how to 00:04:32.500 --> 00:04:38.780 use storytelling techniques to kind of pull the best out of your guest and make 00:04:38.780 --> 00:04:42.620 you both shine and make it interesting for the audience that it's, you know, 00:04:42.620 --> 00:04:45.170 it's natural, conversational, fun. 00:04:45.530 --> 00:04:48.470 One of our biggest techniques really, that we kept talking about, which came 00:04:48.470 --> 00:04:52.830 up the whole day of other presenters too, was just the art of listening. 00:04:53.520 --> 00:04:55.950 And I think you guys probably noticed that too, right? 00:04:55.950 --> 00:04:59.730 Like you have to be so present when you're interviewing someone because 00:04:59.760 --> 00:05:03.660 you even zone out for a moment, they could say something that really you 00:05:03.660 --> 00:05:06.450 should have followed up on, and you just don't wanna miss those opportunities 00:05:06.450 --> 00:05:07.500 when you're doing an interview. 00:05:07.895 --> 00:05:10.325 Jennifer-Lee: Listening is the biggest skill that people don't 00:05:10.325 --> 00:05:11.645 do when doing an interview. 00:05:11.915 --> 00:05:14.945 I know we've, we broke these rules on our podcast. 00:05:14.945 --> 00:05:19.594 I've definitely broken them throughout my career, but I also would agree that, 00:05:19.594 --> 00:05:23.495 and I would like your opinion on this, don't ask, tell us about your journey. 00:05:23.705 --> 00:05:25.475 Don't ask, tell us about yourself. 00:05:25.625 --> 00:05:28.625 Like everybody does it on a podcast. 00:05:29.135 --> 00:05:31.175 Sarah Holtan: So do you want me to tell you about myself? 00:05:32.015 --> 00:05:33.905 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, but see that would've been a great way 00:05:33.905 --> 00:05:36.455 to lead into, it's different. 00:05:37.745 --> 00:05:40.085 So take it away. 00:05:40.235 --> 00:05:41.825 Sarah Holtan: I'd be happy to. 00:05:42.125 --> 00:05:46.180 So actually, I love that you guys allow your guest to frame it up for themselves. 00:05:46.180 --> 00:05:49.930 That way they get to kind of shape and influence like what's put out 00:05:49.930 --> 00:05:52.000 there versus just a standard bio. 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:55.330 So I'll start with why I was invited here, which is that I 00:05:55.330 --> 00:05:57.520 am a podcast host and producer. 00:05:57.520 --> 00:06:00.790 I have a podcast titled Get Down to College Business. 00:06:01.625 --> 00:06:05.555 It's intended for college leaders who are looking to upskill themselves. 00:06:05.555 --> 00:06:11.105 And so they're looking for bite-sized, accessible pieces of information that 00:06:11.105 --> 00:06:16.385 share lessons from other higher ed leaders and business leaders as well who 00:06:16.625 --> 00:06:20.825 have figured something out or maybe have thought about or operated differently. 00:06:21.845 --> 00:06:27.675 And so the topics range anything from employee wellbeing to change management 00:06:27.675 --> 00:06:33.015 to using AI in your everyday workload to blowing up your budget model. 00:06:33.015 --> 00:06:36.975 So how do we do our work better in higher ed? 00:06:37.095 --> 00:06:39.735 And then these other hats that I wear, I also have a day job. 00:06:39.735 --> 00:06:43.395 I'm an assistant provost at Carroll University, which is in a 00:06:43.395 --> 00:06:45.915 suburb of Milwaukee in Wisconsin. 00:06:46.365 --> 00:06:49.185 Right now I'm overseeing the general education program as well 00:06:49.185 --> 00:06:51.345 as our institutional accreditation. 00:06:51.950 --> 00:06:54.200 Then beyond that, I get to wear another hat. 00:06:54.200 --> 00:06:58.580 I co-own construction supporting businesses, and so that was my family 00:06:58.580 --> 00:07:01.070 business that I grew up in, and now I'm an owner and on the board. 00:07:01.070 --> 00:07:04.820 And so I still kept a foot in business, which I think all my 00:07:04.820 --> 00:07:10.010 previous careers, including my first career in the media, kind of came 00:07:10.010 --> 00:07:12.560 together into this one podcast. 00:07:12.620 --> 00:07:17.330 And so that's the easy, short version of who I am and my journey. 00:07:17.730 --> 00:07:18.270 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 00:07:18.300 --> 00:07:20.100 Thanks for sharing that with us. 00:07:20.250 --> 00:07:25.590 It's funny, I find, especially in the podcast space, we end up chatting 00:07:25.590 --> 00:07:30.300 with folks like yourself who are doing a lot of different things. 00:07:31.110 --> 00:07:36.370 So many people we've interviewed that are doing a bunch of things. 00:07:36.370 --> 00:07:40.300 And so when did you launch Get Down to College Business? 00:07:40.660 --> 00:07:44.950 Sarah Holtan: So the first episodes aired in January of 2023. 00:07:44.950 --> 00:07:49.660 So as we're recording this in mid to late August, 2025, it's 00:07:49.660 --> 00:07:51.190 been about two and a half years. 00:07:51.190 --> 00:07:52.180 Little more than that. 00:07:52.180 --> 00:07:55.860 I've got, I think, 60 some episodes published. 00:07:55.900 --> 00:07:57.530 I do twice a month. 00:07:57.550 --> 00:07:58.750 That's about what I can handle. 00:07:58.750 --> 00:08:01.825 It's kind of an on the side thing, which I love. 00:08:01.825 --> 00:08:05.065 It's my passion, but it's hard for me to do more than that. 00:08:05.065 --> 00:08:10.045 So I committed to the two per month with a couple of summer hiatuses, and 00:08:10.075 --> 00:08:11.995 that's been a good cadence for me. 00:08:12.055 --> 00:08:12.595 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 00:08:12.895 --> 00:08:15.805 And when you say committed, you committed to yourself to do that? 00:08:16.350 --> 00:08:17.610 Sarah Holtan: I did commit to myself. 00:08:17.760 --> 00:08:20.460 There's no one I report to, so I appreciate that distinction. 00:08:20.460 --> 00:08:22.770 I think it was more to my audience though, too, so they 00:08:22.770 --> 00:08:24.540 would feel like it was reliable. 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:27.990 And when I do take a break, I try to inform them on my social media, 00:08:27.990 --> 00:08:29.820 like, I'm gonna dip out for a minute. 00:08:29.820 --> 00:08:31.170 I'll be back at this time. 00:08:31.170 --> 00:08:34.680 So that anyone who I guess really cares could find out that I'm coming back. 00:08:34.680 --> 00:08:38.310 I think that's one of the things that I've learned about podcasts is like 00:08:38.310 --> 00:08:40.680 you can get really into them and all of a sudden they just stop and you 00:08:40.680 --> 00:08:43.140 have no idea if they're coming back. 00:08:43.420 --> 00:08:44.350 And I always get sad. 00:08:44.350 --> 00:08:45.340 I'm like, are they coming back? 00:08:45.340 --> 00:08:45.910 I don't know. 00:08:46.540 --> 00:08:50.620 Jennifer-Lee: Well, that's something that we talk about all the time is making sure 00:08:50.680 --> 00:08:55.000 that you tell your listeners where you're going because compared to other mediums 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:57.370 that we do, podcasting is very loyal. 00:08:57.490 --> 00:08:59.110 Like you have a bond with them. 00:08:59.500 --> 00:09:00.430 We wanna know where you go. 00:09:00.555 --> 00:09:00.975 Sarah Holtan: Agreed. 00:09:01.675 --> 00:09:01.944 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:09:02.155 --> 00:09:02.994 No, I agree. 00:09:03.025 --> 00:09:04.555 And I appreciate that. 00:09:04.645 --> 00:09:07.314 I said committed to yourself and you expanded that to 00:09:07.314 --> 00:09:08.244 committing to the audience. 00:09:08.244 --> 00:09:12.145 And I think you're totally right and we say this, we've said this on this 00:09:12.145 --> 00:09:17.064 podcast, but we also say it to our other podcasts that we are involved with. 00:09:17.064 --> 00:09:20.064 It's really about communicating to the audience and it's setting up 00:09:20.230 --> 00:09:25.720 that cadence and sticking to it, and then if you're gonna vary from 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:28.420 it, it's just really about having that conversation with the audience. 00:09:28.420 --> 00:09:29.500 Saying, this is what's happening. 00:09:29.500 --> 00:09:33.490 I'm going for two weeks, or I'm just gonna have to do it every three weeks for the 00:09:33.490 --> 00:09:34.990 time being, you know, so on and so forth. 00:09:34.990 --> 00:09:37.450 I think as long as you're communicating to the audience, I 00:09:37.450 --> 00:09:38.830 think, and that's a really good tip. 00:09:39.220 --> 00:09:42.340 Sarah, when we were chatting with you, you referred to yourself, and I thought 00:09:42.340 --> 00:09:47.440 this was super interesting, as a lone wolf podcaster in higher education. 00:09:47.695 --> 00:09:48.475 Do I have that right? 00:09:48.475 --> 00:09:50.275 Can you sort of unpack that a little bit for us? 00:09:50.755 --> 00:09:51.055 Sarah Holtan: Sure. 00:09:51.055 --> 00:09:51.595 Absolutely. 00:09:51.595 --> 00:09:52.585 I did say that. 00:09:52.585 --> 00:09:56.815 I do feel like a lone wolf, only because my podcast, while it's about 00:09:56.815 --> 00:10:01.615 higher education and I work in higher education, the two are separated. 00:10:01.915 --> 00:10:07.195 And so I don't have an institutional podcast that I host and produce. 00:10:07.195 --> 00:10:12.385 I chose deliberately to do a separate one and separate it out 00:10:12.385 --> 00:10:14.635 from the institution where I work. 00:10:15.085 --> 00:10:18.225 I did that primarily because podcasting is my passion. 00:10:18.314 --> 00:10:24.375 I wanted a passion project where I could have full autonomy, full creative control. 00:10:24.405 --> 00:10:27.795 I wanted to choose my guests, choose my topics. 00:10:28.335 --> 00:10:34.605 I didn't wanna have to do all the stuff that it takes when you work for a company. 00:10:34.965 --> 00:10:40.395 It just appealed to me and in so many of my other work aspects of life, I 00:10:40.395 --> 00:10:42.375 do have to work under other people. 00:10:42.375 --> 00:10:45.925 And this was just a great way to say, okay, I can be creative on 00:10:45.925 --> 00:10:48.265 my own and really stretch myself. 00:10:48.655 --> 00:10:51.505 That's why I call myself the lone wolf, is because the two are 00:10:51.505 --> 00:10:55.675 not tied together, even though there is overlap in the content. 00:10:56.095 --> 00:10:59.275 Jennifer-Lee: And this is becoming more common even with people doing 00:10:59.275 --> 00:11:02.574 things for their own personal brand and their passion projects and stuff. 00:11:03.330 --> 00:11:08.850 A lot of companies and institutions are starting to crack down more onto like what 00:11:08.850 --> 00:11:10.560 you're doing, what you're broadcasting. 00:11:10.860 --> 00:11:15.480 Do you ever feel like you kind of have to watch what you say even 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:19.230 though podcasting is not regulated because it could reflect on future 00:11:19.230 --> 00:11:21.030 job opportunities or your current one? 00:11:21.480 --> 00:11:23.970 Sarah Holtan: Jen, I'm gonna answer that from a general perspective. 00:11:23.970 --> 00:11:26.430 So communication's my discipline and my background. 00:11:26.460 --> 00:11:28.500 I watch what I say all the time no matter what. 00:11:29.160 --> 00:11:35.055 So I think we're coming of age in an environment, in a culture, in 00:11:35.055 --> 00:11:38.325 which words matter more than ever. 00:11:38.445 --> 00:11:41.295 And there you do wanna get your words right. 00:11:41.295 --> 00:11:44.865 So I think I would watch what I say no matter what, even 00:11:44.865 --> 00:11:46.965 if I didn't have a day job. 00:11:47.415 --> 00:11:48.735 I will say though, that. 00:11:48.915 --> 00:11:53.685 It's only been beneficial to understand the priorities of higher ed. 00:11:53.685 --> 00:11:57.405 That helps me understand what kinds of topics should be addressed. 00:11:57.765 --> 00:12:02.235 Where do colleges maybe need some more solutions or ideas? 00:12:02.235 --> 00:12:04.005 So I think it's been more helpful. 00:12:04.305 --> 00:12:05.055 I will say though, that. 00:12:05.625 --> 00:12:10.395 In order to keep things separate and just to protect anybody, I do have a waiver 00:12:10.395 --> 00:12:15.135 that my guests sign that just simply says that it's Sarah and Sarah's company 00:12:15.165 --> 00:12:19.935 that I'm speaking to, that I understand that this is separate from a formal 00:12:19.935 --> 00:12:24.790 organization other than Sarah and her company, and that they understand that. 00:12:24.790 --> 00:12:28.960 It just helps 'cause I have my podcast under an LLC, so it creates 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:31.570 a layer of separation that I think is just smart with anything. 00:12:31.570 --> 00:12:34.210 I mean, that's just how people operate businesses nowadays. 00:12:34.570 --> 00:12:39.010 When podcasting becomes more heavily regulated, I think then 00:12:39.010 --> 00:12:42.010 we'll just put more control measures into protect all of us. 00:12:42.010 --> 00:12:43.030 It's a two-way protection. 00:12:43.030 --> 00:12:46.840 It's not just protecting me from someone or someone being protected from me. 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:48.340 I think it's a mutual scenario. 00:12:48.935 --> 00:12:51.185 Jennifer-Lee: I think that's so important and it's something that we don't really 00:12:51.185 --> 00:12:56.675 discuss a lot because even though a lot of people are talking to their podcast is 00:12:56.675 --> 00:13:00.305 from the institution, a lot of them have never talked about any type of waiver 00:13:00.305 --> 00:13:01.985 or anything that they've had to sign. 00:13:01.985 --> 00:13:05.795 And I know it's becoming a more popular thing to do in podcasts, 00:13:05.795 --> 00:13:07.055 but it's great to hear that. 00:13:07.505 --> 00:13:12.015 Sarah Holtan: And really my goal is to make everybody more informed, everyone 00:13:12.015 --> 00:13:13.665 should sound good at the end of the day. 00:13:13.694 --> 00:13:17.354 I've never gone into an interview thinking, Ooh, I'm 00:13:17.354 --> 00:13:19.245 gonna get them on something. 00:13:19.364 --> 00:13:21.885 That is just not my style in general. 00:13:21.885 --> 00:13:24.165 I'm here to give back and have an impact. 00:13:24.645 --> 00:13:26.925 I want my guests to sound as good as they can. 00:13:26.925 --> 00:13:30.645 I want me to sound as good as I can and for people to listen 00:13:30.645 --> 00:13:31.755 and enjoy listening to it. 00:13:31.755 --> 00:13:33.255 I'm not a shock jock type at all. 00:13:33.719 --> 00:13:34.319 Neil McPhedran: Fair enough. 00:13:34.860 --> 00:13:38.520 I, I am interested in digging further into this separation of 00:13:38.520 --> 00:13:42.390 your day job versus your podcast. 00:13:42.390 --> 00:13:44.730 I think this is really interesting and is super applicable for a 00:13:44.730 --> 00:13:47.310 portion of our audience for sure. 00:13:47.819 --> 00:13:50.760 One thing I thought was interesting, and I think what I heard you say 00:13:50.760 --> 00:13:56.550 was that although your podcast is separate from your assistant provost 00:13:56.550 --> 00:14:01.485 role, it is quite aligned though from what you do actually there. 00:14:01.515 --> 00:14:04.245 You mentioned that sort of an advantage of doing the podcast. 00:14:04.245 --> 00:14:06.795 You've learned things from it or you've had conversations from it, 00:14:06.795 --> 00:14:11.445 so on and so forth that have played into your role as assistant provost. 00:14:11.865 --> 00:14:12.795 Sarah Holtan: Yeah, absolutely. 00:14:12.795 --> 00:14:14.565 It's actually both ways. 00:14:14.805 --> 00:14:19.095 So I think my topic ideas are often sparked, not always, but often 00:14:19.095 --> 00:14:20.925 sparked by what I'm seeing at work. 00:14:20.925 --> 00:14:23.715 Like, gosh, what, when do we change a budget model? 00:14:23.715 --> 00:14:25.785 When is the best time to change a budget model? 00:14:25.815 --> 00:14:26.505 I don't even know. 00:14:26.505 --> 00:14:28.815 So then I'll start looking at it and then all of a sudden I'll find 00:14:29.055 --> 00:14:32.385 someone who's written about it, posted something really interesting. 00:14:32.625 --> 00:14:34.695 I'll reach out to them and then I'll learn about it. 00:14:34.695 --> 00:14:38.310 So like that's an example of an upcoming podcast episode that I'm working on. 00:14:38.310 --> 00:14:41.880 It's like, yeah, I don't know under what conditions it's a good idea to change a 00:14:41.880 --> 00:14:46.380 budget model versus when you shouldn't and just stay with your status quo. 00:14:46.380 --> 00:14:48.960 And so I feel like it's my own professional development. 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:53.195 But I don't know that I would've had that topic idea without my day job 00:14:53.255 --> 00:14:56.435 because it had come up in meetings and people were talking about it, and 00:14:56.435 --> 00:14:57.815 I just didn't know enough about it. 00:14:57.815 --> 00:15:02.315 So I do think it ends up being like a symbiotic relationship where I understand 00:15:02.315 --> 00:15:04.145 maybe what could make a good topic. 00:15:04.145 --> 00:15:05.465 Then I start investigating it. 00:15:05.735 --> 00:15:09.485 Then I learn from my guest and whatever they wrote or whatever they talked about, 00:15:09.515 --> 00:15:13.205 and then I can bring it back and utilize it and think about like, okay, maybe 00:15:13.205 --> 00:15:16.385 when I'm in the next meeting, I'll be able to have a more informed opinion. 00:15:16.830 --> 00:15:21.000 Neil McPhedran: And then when you launched the, the podcast, you were actually at a 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:23.560 different school at that time, correct? 00:15:23.710 --> 00:15:26.550 Maybe you could take us through that process. 00:15:26.550 --> 00:15:28.230 I wanted to launch a podcast. 00:15:28.230 --> 00:15:32.010 I wanted to keep it separate from my day job. 00:15:32.160 --> 00:15:34.860 Maybe help us go through that process with you. 00:15:34.860 --> 00:15:36.565 'Cause I think there's probably a couple things we can learn. 00:15:37.195 --> 00:15:43.075 Sarah Holtan: So in my last institution, I worked there for 22 years, and in my 21st 00:15:43.075 --> 00:15:46.465 year I got to cherry pick my projects. 00:15:46.465 --> 00:15:48.415 I was special advisor to the president. 00:15:48.415 --> 00:15:52.735 I also had a teaching rank and title. 00:15:53.095 --> 00:15:55.015 I just had the best job. 00:15:55.045 --> 00:15:57.445 But I'll tell you, when you're at a place for more than 20 00:15:57.445 --> 00:15:59.035 years, you have shortcuts. 00:15:59.165 --> 00:16:03.005 And you have social capital, so you get your job done fairly efficiently. 00:16:03.035 --> 00:16:05.135 You know who does what, how to get your job done. 00:16:05.135 --> 00:16:09.725 And I just felt like even though my job was really good, I had 00:16:09.725 --> 00:16:13.175 more in me and I was like, where do I put this extra energy? 00:16:13.295 --> 00:16:17.075 And so then I was starting to get into podcasts and I'm 00:16:17.075 --> 00:16:18.395 like, I couldn't maybe do this. 00:16:18.395 --> 00:16:18.965 I should do it. 00:16:18.965 --> 00:16:22.285 And then that's self-doubt kicks in and you're like, well, maybe I shouldn't. 00:16:22.285 --> 00:16:23.245 Maybe I should wait. 00:16:23.575 --> 00:16:25.855 Maybe my institution will do it. 00:16:25.885 --> 00:16:27.595 And then the more I thought about it, the more I was like, 00:16:27.655 --> 00:16:29.545 this is just go big or go home. 00:16:29.545 --> 00:16:31.595 And if you fail and you'll be fine, you'll recover. 00:16:31.825 --> 00:16:35.725 No one knows who you are so your reputation isn't much to risk, right? 00:16:36.235 --> 00:16:40.740 And I just felt like if I could do it myself I could do it exactly under 00:16:40.740 --> 00:16:44.250 my vision, and I think that's what I was actually craving at that time. 00:16:44.250 --> 00:16:47.700 Although I don't know if I would've been as self-aware of that as I am 00:16:47.700 --> 00:16:53.670 now, but it was like I needed my own passion project in order to really 00:16:53.670 --> 00:16:55.440 make that vision come to life. 00:16:55.530 --> 00:16:59.340 As I mentioned earlier, when you work on teams for someone else, it's 00:16:59.340 --> 00:17:01.170 just a different level of autonomy. 00:17:02.185 --> 00:17:05.395 Everything gets checked, triple checked, kicked around the 00:17:05.395 --> 00:17:09.175 can, modified, compromised, whatever, and that's good too. 00:17:09.565 --> 00:17:14.185 That works for many large sized projects and it's totally appropriate, but I felt 00:17:14.185 --> 00:17:17.905 like I could be a little speedboat and maybe get through things faster and kind 00:17:17.905 --> 00:17:20.305 of just do it and just my own challenge. 00:17:20.365 --> 00:17:22.375 So I think it was for personal reasons really. 00:17:22.615 --> 00:17:25.765 I also really wanted to start building my own personal brand. 00:17:26.305 --> 00:17:29.845 I am not old enough to start thinking seriously about retirement, 00:17:29.875 --> 00:17:31.665 but it is on the horizon. 00:17:31.725 --> 00:17:35.834 And so what kind of fun things could I do in retirement that sets me up for that? 00:17:35.864 --> 00:17:38.475 How do I build my network beyond my current institution? 00:17:38.985 --> 00:17:42.055 That's the best, I mean, I wouldn't have met you two if I 00:17:42.055 --> 00:17:44.355 hadn't done, you know, a podcast. 00:17:44.355 --> 00:17:47.445 People like you and some of the other people in our Ed Up community, 00:17:48.155 --> 00:17:51.725 they just wouldn't have been in my radar if I had stayed within 00:17:51.725 --> 00:17:53.135 the confines of an institution. 00:17:53.135 --> 00:17:54.845 So it was really just personal preference. 00:17:55.145 --> 00:17:57.155 Jennifer-Lee: And you mentioned the Ed Up community. 00:17:57.185 --> 00:18:00.575 Can you tell our listeners a little bit about what that is 00:18:00.575 --> 00:18:01.985 and why you're a part of it? 00:18:02.225 --> 00:18:02.554 Sarah Holtan: Okay. 00:18:02.554 --> 00:18:04.475 So there's two names you need to know. 00:18:04.475 --> 00:18:08.425 When we think about the Ed Up community, it's Elvin Freytes and Joe Sallustio. 00:18:08.735 --> 00:18:11.825 They're the co-founders of the Ed Up experience. 00:18:12.155 --> 00:18:14.014 They built it from scratch. 00:18:14.044 --> 00:18:15.875 It's an amazing podcast. 00:18:15.945 --> 00:18:18.659 Launching into different kinds of media. 00:18:18.719 --> 00:18:21.689 They basically started from ground up and then they created this 00:18:21.689 --> 00:18:26.219 community of other podcasts that they've invited in to be a part of an 00:18:26.219 --> 00:18:28.320 affiliation or association with 'em. 00:18:28.739 --> 00:18:32.760 And so they invited me into their network about a year and a half ago. 00:18:32.760 --> 00:18:36.810 So I've been part of their association for about that long, and it's 00:18:36.810 --> 00:18:39.929 been wonderful 'cause they open doors, we support each other, we 00:18:39.929 --> 00:18:41.280 take our challenges to each other. 00:18:41.280 --> 00:18:42.780 Like, Hey, how would you guys solve this? 00:18:42.780 --> 00:18:43.830 How would you work through that? 00:18:43.830 --> 00:18:48.270 So again, it's another community that I don't think I would've ever had in my 00:18:48.270 --> 00:18:50.850 network if I hadn't done this podcast. 00:18:51.270 --> 00:18:51.870 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 00:18:52.410 --> 00:18:53.970 Yeah, great guys, obviously. 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:56.640 Gotten to know them pretty well over organizing pod with them. 00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:57.450 Jennifer-Lee: So they can do anything. 00:18:57.660 --> 00:18:58.680 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, absolutely. 00:18:58.710 --> 00:19:00.300 I've experienced that firsthand. 00:19:00.600 --> 00:19:02.760 Jennifer-Lee: For anyone that doesn't know they were your partners 00:19:02.760 --> 00:19:03.970 in crime for creating PodCon. 00:19:03.990 --> 00:19:04.890 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, exactly. 00:19:05.100 --> 00:19:09.330 We met them online and we worked together online for months and months and months. 00:19:09.330 --> 00:19:12.270 It was really cool to meet them in real life in Chicago. 00:19:12.540 --> 00:19:16.530 So when you were launching your podcast, you did go to your institution 00:19:16.530 --> 00:19:17.940 and said, Hey, I'm doing this. 00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:20.460 So maybe just sort of go through that process for us. 00:19:20.945 --> 00:19:25.715 Sarah Holtan: Yeah, so I did approach my supervisor at the time and said, 00:19:25.715 --> 00:19:27.395 Hey, this is what I'm thinking. 00:19:27.425 --> 00:19:28.775 Here's why I plan to do it. 00:19:28.775 --> 00:19:33.695 Here's how I will protect both of us, which is to put it under an LLC. 00:19:33.695 --> 00:19:34.955 I'm gonna have waivers. 00:19:35.435 --> 00:19:38.045 They all knew me enough, I think, to have the trust to say, oh, 00:19:38.045 --> 00:19:39.725 this could only benefit us. 00:19:39.725 --> 00:19:43.585 So they were cheering me on from the sidelines, and in fact, some 00:19:43.585 --> 00:19:46.735 of my first handful of guests were from that institution, 00:19:46.795 --> 00:19:47.765 right, because who else knew me? 00:19:47.845 --> 00:19:50.365 Especially before you have your podcast, trying to find guests to 00:19:50.365 --> 00:19:53.335 go on this non-existent podcast is quite interesting though. 00:19:53.335 --> 00:19:57.925 They've been all fully supportive and it was great, but I think 00:19:57.955 --> 00:20:02.155 everyone felt comfortable having that layer of separation just in case. 00:20:02.155 --> 00:20:05.545 I think just being cautious by nature, it doesn't hurt. 00:20:05.545 --> 00:20:08.395 There's no disadvantage to keep a level of separation. 00:20:08.840 --> 00:20:12.800 But there could be potential disadvantages to not having separation and maybe 00:20:12.800 --> 00:20:17.750 blurring lines if your institution didn't love the final product, or maybe the topic 00:20:17.750 --> 00:20:22.490 wasn't conducted in a way they would've aligned with their goals and priorities. 00:20:22.490 --> 00:20:26.540 So I think having that layer of separation and having the agreement upfront made 00:20:26.540 --> 00:20:27.885 everyone feel much more comfortable. 00:20:28.524 --> 00:20:31.375 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, always do your homework and to make sure, you know, 00:20:31.375 --> 00:20:33.085 like you can always access lawyers. 00:20:33.085 --> 00:20:36.715 It's better to ask the questions and get yourself into something down the 00:20:36.715 --> 00:20:38.485 road that's gonna affect your career. 00:20:38.635 --> 00:20:39.445 Sarah Holtan: Absolutely, yes. 00:20:39.445 --> 00:20:43.045 I, I didn't mention that, but I did have formal legal advice as well. 00:20:43.285 --> 00:20:46.465 Again, just as a layer of protection, and I felt like the investment 00:20:46.465 --> 00:20:48.490 upfront was worth it, just in case. 00:20:48.600 --> 00:20:52.254 Like I said, I'm kind of cautious by nature, so I would rather just know 00:20:52.254 --> 00:20:55.435 what I'm getting into and what could be potential minefields and then 00:20:55.435 --> 00:20:57.055 try and mitigate any of that risk. 00:20:57.545 --> 00:20:59.465 Thankfully I haven't had any trouble, so. 00:20:59.885 --> 00:21:01.835 Jennifer-Lee: But I think it's important too because it's something 00:21:01.835 --> 00:21:06.305 as we're creating our own brands, and this goes for anyone doing podcasting 00:21:06.395 --> 00:21:09.515 similar to you and it's not just in the higher education space, is 00:21:09.575 --> 00:21:11.465 really protecting what you've built. 00:21:11.765 --> 00:21:16.680 'Cause it's your podcast and so you don't want to get to the point where, you know, 00:21:16.980 --> 00:21:20.580 someone takes your podcast from you too, because you don't officially own it, 00:21:20.580 --> 00:21:24.930 because you go together with another type of partner or another institution. 00:21:24.930 --> 00:21:27.270 So I think it's just protecting what you've built. 00:21:27.810 --> 00:21:28.320 Sarah Holtan: Amen. 00:21:28.320 --> 00:21:28.560 Jen. 00:21:28.560 --> 00:21:30.900 I was hearing a couple of stories about that, unfortunately, 00:21:30.900 --> 00:21:33.120 when we were at Higher podcast. 00:21:33.120 --> 00:21:33.550 Yes. 00:21:33.550 --> 00:21:36.540 That they thought the podcast was their own because they were 00:21:36.540 --> 00:21:37.990 the ones doing the work on it. 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:41.520 And then it turns out it's not actually owned by 'em. 00:21:41.520 --> 00:21:45.150 So mine fortunately, is all squared away that I own it. 00:21:45.460 --> 00:21:49.240 Neil McPhedran: Well, and that it afforded you the ability now that you're at the 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:54.430 Carroll University, you took your podcast with you 'cause it's yours and there was 00:21:54.430 --> 00:21:58.510 no sort of weirdness, grey area there. 00:21:58.730 --> 00:22:01.480 Because if you hadn't and that, that would've been a bit of a weird one. 00:22:01.480 --> 00:22:04.840 If you hadn't sort of done that, that might have a tricky one to take it 00:22:04.840 --> 00:22:05.955 with you when you go to your new gig. 00:22:06.659 --> 00:22:07.500 Sarah Holtan: I don't think you would. 00:22:07.919 --> 00:22:08.159 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:22:08.220 --> 00:22:10.230 Sarah Holtan: I think you'd have to start over to be honest. 00:22:10.320 --> 00:22:12.360 Jennifer-Lee: Well, and that's the hard part is, and this is a good 00:22:12.360 --> 00:22:15.810 lesson for anybody going in the higher education space, it's okay 00:22:15.810 --> 00:22:18.150 to do one that's institute focused. 00:22:18.150 --> 00:22:21.360 Just be aware when you have those conversations. 00:22:22.225 --> 00:22:25.915 If you have planned to take this with you later on, you might not be able to. 00:22:25.915 --> 00:22:29.245 And make sure it's, if you want it to keep it separate, it's not the 00:22:29.245 --> 00:22:30.715 title of the university or whatever. 00:22:30.895 --> 00:22:32.665 But these are conversations that we're all learning because 00:22:32.665 --> 00:22:35.375 podcasting is still relatively young. 00:22:35.495 --> 00:22:41.095 So it's good things to think about when you're approaching your institution or 00:22:41.095 --> 00:22:44.990 your business, and if you wanna be a big part of it in the future, you gotta 00:22:44.990 --> 00:22:46.700 figure out where that all fits, right? 00:22:47.149 --> 00:22:49.760 Sarah Holtan: And I would add to that, there's plenty of advantages 00:22:49.760 --> 00:22:53.270 to having an institutional podcast versus being a lone wolf like me. 00:22:53.270 --> 00:22:56.060 I think about like just the time it takes to do the podcast. 00:22:56.060 --> 00:22:58.150 I mean, that's all in my own time. 00:22:58.580 --> 00:23:00.710 That is not built into my work schedule. 00:23:00.740 --> 00:23:05.959 The funding for the podcast is self-funding through my sponsorships 00:23:05.959 --> 00:23:07.639 and through my other work. 00:23:07.699 --> 00:23:10.760 You start from scratch with your listener base, right? 00:23:10.760 --> 00:23:14.360 Because you're a single person versus affiliated with an institution 00:23:14.360 --> 00:23:18.139 that might already have a social media following or have other 00:23:18.439 --> 00:23:20.570 networks that they can draw from. 00:23:20.959 --> 00:23:25.159 So there's plenty of advantages to doing an institutional podcast, for sure. 00:23:25.280 --> 00:23:25.550 Neil McPhedran: Yep. 00:23:25.639 --> 00:23:27.800 I would sort of just on this point here, because I think it's a good 00:23:27.800 --> 00:23:32.754 one, Jen and I are going through a process with another podcast right 00:23:32.754 --> 00:23:39.115 now where they had been doing it with the school for five years and then the 00:23:39.115 --> 00:23:41.245 funding just disappeared basically. 00:23:42.264 --> 00:23:45.925 And the institution stopped paying for the hosting and they're like, 00:23:45.925 --> 00:23:47.215 well, hang on a second, right? 00:23:47.245 --> 00:23:48.985 It's MBA associated. 00:23:48.985 --> 00:23:52.889 And so they'd baked it into coursework and everything, so they went through a 00:23:53.170 --> 00:23:58.420 process of then trying to get it back from the school so they could take 00:23:58.420 --> 00:24:01.330 it on and carry forward themselves. 00:24:01.330 --> 00:24:04.360 And I think that, Jen knows more than I about sort of that, but 00:24:04.540 --> 00:24:06.640 it's, it was a tricky situation. 00:24:06.705 --> 00:24:07.765 Jennifer-Lee: It wasn't easy either. 00:24:07.955 --> 00:24:08.645 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, it wasn't easy. 00:24:09.130 --> 00:24:11.800 And then now like, and then who owns the RSS feed? 00:24:11.800 --> 00:24:18.389 And so I think the point here is whether you're doing what you are doing, Sarah, 00:24:18.389 --> 00:24:21.659 which is like you, this was your thing and you went to your institution. 00:24:21.659 --> 00:24:23.010 You said, this is what I'm doing. 00:24:23.399 --> 00:24:24.570 Here it is upfront. 00:24:24.570 --> 00:24:29.070 You got legal advice and you started up an LLC and you did it that way, or 00:24:29.070 --> 00:24:31.530 you're doing it with your institution. 00:24:31.950 --> 00:24:36.430 Having the conversation early on makes a lot of sense. 00:24:36.430 --> 00:24:38.700 'Cause I think either way things can go funny. 00:24:39.149 --> 00:24:41.070 Jennifer-Lee: And it's really hard when you start and you're 00:24:41.070 --> 00:24:43.419 the host of the podcast too. 00:24:43.555 --> 00:24:47.185 Neil, I have interviewed other institutions where the podcast 00:24:47.185 --> 00:24:48.905 stays and the hosts change. 00:24:48.905 --> 00:24:49.855 And that's fine. 00:24:50.345 --> 00:24:53.845 But if you put all your, your own sweat equity in it, obviously the 00:24:53.845 --> 00:24:56.245 university or college has put in dollars. 00:24:56.515 --> 00:24:58.765 With podcasting, it's so hard, but you have all these things and like 00:24:58.945 --> 00:25:02.155 gaining your ownership is so important. 00:25:02.155 --> 00:25:04.585 Like I've had people come to me in different respects, they're 00:25:04.585 --> 00:25:05.845 like, oh, well it's okay. 00:25:05.845 --> 00:25:07.135 We have all our episodes. 00:25:07.585 --> 00:25:10.195 We'll just restart it on another platform. 00:25:10.195 --> 00:25:12.175 I said, no, you're gonna compete with your ghost. 00:25:12.325 --> 00:25:14.665 And nobody talks about competing with your ghost. 00:25:14.905 --> 00:25:17.095 And like with your website, like Sarah, you've been doing 00:25:17.095 --> 00:25:18.745 your podcast for how long now? 00:25:19.075 --> 00:25:19.765 Sarah Holtan: Two and a half years. 00:25:19.815 --> 00:25:20.975 Jennifer-Lee: Two and a half years. 00:25:20.995 --> 00:25:23.635 You haven't been on that long, but two and a half years, you probably 00:25:23.635 --> 00:25:27.025 have a lot of potential SEO behind the scenes that you don't know. 00:25:27.025 --> 00:25:30.754 So if you were to lose that tomorrow, it, it's hard. 00:25:31.205 --> 00:25:33.544 Neil McPhedran: Maybe we just sort of dig into a little bit more, some of 00:25:33.544 --> 00:25:37.685 the advantages, disadvantages of, or maybe an another way to put it, share 00:25:37.685 --> 00:25:42.455 some pro tips with us here for going it alone and launching your own podcast, 00:25:42.514 --> 00:25:43.955 what would you say are some key things? 00:25:44.355 --> 00:25:47.355 Sarah Holtan: All right, so when I think about some pro tips, like things 00:25:47.355 --> 00:25:51.915 that, if I had the wisdom two and a half years ago when I started, I think, 00:25:52.005 --> 00:25:54.855 and everybody said it to me, but I don't know that I took it a hundred 00:25:54.855 --> 00:26:00.615 percent seriously, was this idea of setting your goals beyond monetization. 00:26:00.675 --> 00:26:01.935 And I was like, oh, sure. 00:26:01.935 --> 00:26:03.405 Like, yeah, I get it. 00:26:03.465 --> 00:26:08.035 But really to keep yourself motivated, whether you're a lone wolf or even if 00:26:08.035 --> 00:26:11.875 you're connected to the institutional podcast, so say someone taps you on the 00:26:11.875 --> 00:26:13.975 shoulder and says, can you work on this? 00:26:13.975 --> 00:26:15.295 Or can you start one up for us? 00:26:15.835 --> 00:26:19.645 And so I think in higher ed, it's gonna resonate with a lot of your 00:26:19.645 --> 00:26:22.405 listeners to have the goal of impact. 00:26:22.945 --> 00:26:25.795 Like, what am I giving back to this community? 00:26:25.855 --> 00:26:30.504 You know, am I uplifting and highlighting our alumni, our students, our 00:26:30.504 --> 00:26:33.195 faculty, staff, our administrators. 00:26:33.615 --> 00:26:36.285 Am I providing new content for this space? 00:26:36.315 --> 00:26:41.865 Am I helping all of us grow professionally and build our network and make new 00:26:41.865 --> 00:26:45.825 marketing tactics that land well with the constituents that we wanna pull in? 00:26:45.825 --> 00:26:49.305 Like have those goals and then just kind of always have them 00:26:49.305 --> 00:26:50.655 as North Star and a work toward. 00:26:50.655 --> 00:26:53.535 And again, it's so obvious, and I know other people have said it, but I don't 00:26:53.535 --> 00:26:55.175 know that I took it fully seriously. 00:26:55.945 --> 00:27:00.360 Now that I really do, it's for me, impact is the number one goal that I have. 00:27:00.780 --> 00:27:03.209 And then building my personal network, right? 00:27:03.209 --> 00:27:07.469 So beyond just the confines of my institution and the other spaces 00:27:07.469 --> 00:27:11.070 that I work in, there's networks I've developed through podcasting that 00:27:11.070 --> 00:27:13.249 I would not have had any other way. 00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:15.360 And it seems like everyone kind of introduces you to somebody 00:27:15.360 --> 00:27:18.659 else and you realize that like the higher ed community is not as big 00:27:18.659 --> 00:27:20.280 as I once thought it was, right? 00:27:20.280 --> 00:27:23.520 A lot of us are connected in some way, so that's been amazing. 00:27:24.110 --> 00:27:25.909 I also do it for professional development. 00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:31.490 I love to learn, but I fully acknowledge that reading all the books and the 00:27:31.520 --> 00:27:34.040 articles, I just have limited time. 00:27:34.040 --> 00:27:38.090 Y'all probably do too, but we all can do a podcast while doing something 00:27:38.090 --> 00:27:41.750 else, while driving my kids to soccer and going grocery shopping 00:27:41.750 --> 00:27:43.820 and exercising and commuting. 00:27:44.149 --> 00:27:49.710 So you're able to essentially learn while you're doing something else. 00:27:49.710 --> 00:27:52.470 And so I think the professional development piece of podcasting 00:27:52.470 --> 00:27:56.100 has been super, you know, on the forefront of one of my goals. 00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:58.560 So just really considering your goals. 00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:02.700 I think also for many of us in higher ed, I have a media 00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:04.110 background, but I was never on air. 00:28:04.110 --> 00:28:10.620 I was a producer, and so not having my on air skills developed very well. 00:28:10.620 --> 00:28:16.675 Just practice and you don't even need to actually be interviewing a real guest, 00:28:16.675 --> 00:28:22.705 like interview your friend or your kid or the dog or yourself and just record 00:28:22.705 --> 00:28:25.165 it on whatever virtual platform you use. 00:28:25.165 --> 00:28:27.264 And then force yourself to listen to it. 00:28:27.625 --> 00:28:29.514 You get so much better. 00:28:29.514 --> 00:28:32.575 I still make myself listen to my episodes. 00:28:32.575 --> 00:28:35.770 I know some people don't, but I think I get better faster. 00:28:36.055 --> 00:28:39.925 And then one other tip that I would love to share with you guys is just 00:28:39.925 --> 00:28:43.420 really read about podcasting expertise. 00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:46.840 They don't have to be higher ed podcasters, just whoever you admire. 00:28:46.840 --> 00:28:50.020 There's other podcasters that do their shows on it. 00:28:50.020 --> 00:28:51.460 There's books, there's articles. 00:28:51.850 --> 00:28:54.700 You know, any of that will help you get better 'cause other people have 00:28:54.700 --> 00:28:56.140 learned through trial and error. 00:28:56.140 --> 00:28:59.530 So if you can minimize your trial and error phase, you'll 00:28:59.530 --> 00:29:00.700 have more fun with it too. 00:29:01.540 --> 00:29:05.200 Oh, and this is controversial because I know a lot of podcasters on our 00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:10.415 shoestring budget, and maybe it sounds extravagant, but if you can hire some 00:29:10.415 --> 00:29:12.395 of the technical side to be done. 00:29:12.395 --> 00:29:14.225 So I rent a studio. 00:29:14.495 --> 00:29:16.035 I do all the upfront work. 00:29:16.035 --> 00:29:21.455 But I do not hit the record button and I do not have to do the post editing myself. 00:29:21.965 --> 00:29:26.004 And I just, in my mind, that is money well spent. 00:29:26.035 --> 00:29:28.855 Because I'm not good at the technical side, and to be honest, 00:29:28.855 --> 00:29:30.155 I don't wanna spend the time on it. 00:29:30.155 --> 00:29:35.905 That's where I would probably fall off my consistency train is if I 00:29:35.905 --> 00:29:39.685 had to sit down and post edit and then, you know, do all the things to 00:29:39.685 --> 00:29:41.995 make it go into the podcast world. 00:29:41.995 --> 00:29:45.805 So if you can afford it, do it, because I really think it makes a difference. 00:29:46.165 --> 00:29:49.285 Neil McPhedran: I do really appreciate your point, Sarah, and I completely agree. 00:29:49.285 --> 00:29:56.669 Even if over time you think you can take on more and more of the podcast, 00:29:57.179 --> 00:30:02.760 upfront, getting some help, whether in those areas that you are not interested 00:30:02.760 --> 00:30:07.860 in or not in your wheelhouse is going to be helpful for you in the long run. 00:30:07.860 --> 00:30:11.815 And even if that is in the short term, getting that help and then 00:30:11.815 --> 00:30:16.345 learning it properly so then you can run with it yourself, I 00:30:16.345 --> 00:30:18.835 think is definitely invaluable. 00:30:18.835 --> 00:30:23.635 'Cause you know, back to the cadence and keeping going, and people who try 00:30:23.635 --> 00:30:27.024 to tackle it all themselves and learn it all themselves, those are the ones 00:30:27.024 --> 00:30:30.925 I think that experience the pod fade and just give up kind of a thing. 00:30:31.014 --> 00:30:32.605 Sarah Holtan: And it's easy to give up, right? 00:30:32.605 --> 00:30:34.254 If it's not tied to your job. 00:30:34.685 --> 00:30:38.345 It could be, again, you have to know what your goals are and your motivation, so 00:30:38.345 --> 00:30:41.105 that will keep you sustained for a while. 00:30:41.105 --> 00:30:44.165 But it will also be the thing that goes if it can't, right? 00:30:44.165 --> 00:30:48.274 If you hit particularly busy or trying part of your life, that's 00:30:48.274 --> 00:30:50.165 gonna be the extra that you give up. 00:30:50.165 --> 00:30:53.315 And so having that help can be the difference between keeping it going. 00:30:53.705 --> 00:30:57.605 And I don't know if you guys have found this to be true, but you really 00:30:57.605 --> 00:31:01.294 have to put a lot of episodes out there before it starts to pick up and 00:31:01.294 --> 00:31:03.425 there's some traction and some momentum. 00:31:03.485 --> 00:31:09.730 I would say the first 20 to 30 episodes that I made just kind of seemed they 00:31:09.730 --> 00:31:12.430 were there and I had a slow growth. 00:31:12.430 --> 00:31:16.450 And all sudden right around 35, 38, I was like, oh, okay, now 00:31:16.450 --> 00:31:17.800 the members are looking good. 00:31:17.800 --> 00:31:20.950 And then by 50 some it was in a totally different place. 00:31:20.950 --> 00:31:23.290 So it's almost like that flywheel effect. 00:31:23.290 --> 00:31:29.170 So sustaining your ability to do it, if it means having to hire out pieces 00:31:29.170 --> 00:31:33.550 of the podcast, it is gonna be well worth it if you wanna keep it going. 00:31:33.830 --> 00:31:35.689 Jennifer-Lee: And don't get upset with the numbers. 00:31:35.689 --> 00:31:39.159 I've seen a lot of cool things happen with really teeny audiences. 00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:40.870 But be consistent. 00:31:41.330 --> 00:31:45.770 Yeah, maybe you have low numbers compared to Joe Rogan, but you're doing it again 00:31:45.770 --> 00:31:47.959 for like different reasons and goals. 00:31:48.080 --> 00:31:52.760 So if you align yourself to your reasons and goals, you're gonna be fine. 00:31:53.179 --> 00:31:55.699 Quick question for you before we go, because I know we gotta wrap this up 00:31:55.699 --> 00:31:57.889 soon, is you talked about monetization. 00:31:58.235 --> 00:32:00.274 Not a lot of people talk about that here on this show. 00:32:00.274 --> 00:32:03.215 Can you tell what you did to get monetization? 00:32:03.215 --> 00:32:06.695 Sarah Holtan: I'm not a natural sales person, so that is 00:32:06.695 --> 00:32:08.165 something that I'm growing in. 00:32:08.165 --> 00:32:10.325 It doesn't come naturally to me. 00:32:10.504 --> 00:32:13.955 So again, area of growth, getting better at it all the time and 00:32:13.955 --> 00:32:16.970 more comfortable, 'cause it's like I want my product out there. 00:32:16.970 --> 00:32:20.659 'Cause I really do believe people are learning from it and that 00:32:20.659 --> 00:32:23.209 there's really good things happening for the people who are listening. 00:32:23.209 --> 00:32:26.480 So I believe in it, but you know, it's different to kind of sell yourself, right? 00:32:26.750 --> 00:32:32.300 Yeah, so there's two ways that I make money and I, I make enough to keep going. 00:32:32.300 --> 00:32:33.889 I cannot quit the day job. 00:32:33.919 --> 00:32:37.580 I'd say probably most of your guests don't need to monetize it, right? 00:32:37.580 --> 00:32:38.330 That wouldn't, 00:32:38.330 --> 00:32:39.439 Neil McPhedran: Very, very few. 00:32:39.439 --> 00:32:39.530 Sarah Holtan: Yeah. 00:32:39.560 --> 00:32:40.475 That's probably unusual. 00:32:41.300 --> 00:32:44.025 Okay, so yeah, so direct sponsorships. 00:32:44.055 --> 00:32:48.255 So sponsorships of like that are basically ads I call 'em. 00:32:48.375 --> 00:32:52.455 I have one that's a pre-roll right now, so you'll hear it before 00:32:52.485 --> 00:32:54.225 the rest of the episode starts. 00:32:54.465 --> 00:32:57.885 So it's people who've signed on that said, we wanna be in front of your audience. 00:32:58.275 --> 00:33:01.605 And then the other way to do it that I'm working on is that my guests 00:33:01.605 --> 00:33:06.220 are actually contributing to, like compensating me to be on there. 00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:08.590 But they do have, we co-create the content. 00:33:08.590 --> 00:33:12.400 So I really am careful to protect the integrity of this show. 00:33:12.790 --> 00:33:17.650 I want my listeners to get value, so I do not accept the type of guest that 00:33:17.650 --> 00:33:19.900 is only going to have a commercial. 00:33:20.380 --> 00:33:21.070 I don't want that. 00:33:21.070 --> 00:33:25.120 I do want though, like people who are in education or adjacent to education and 00:33:25.120 --> 00:33:28.900 have something really valuable to offer and they want to be in front of my guests. 00:33:28.905 --> 00:33:32.685 They want their spokesperson, so you know, whoever they appoint from 00:33:32.685 --> 00:33:34.455 their company to make it on my show. 00:33:34.455 --> 00:33:37.804 But they weren't on my radar for whatever reason, wasn't familiar 00:33:37.804 --> 00:33:42.014 with them, so that they have a chance to be in front of my audience. 00:33:42.020 --> 00:33:45.105 As, as the creative control person, I try to make sure that 00:33:45.105 --> 00:33:46.395 there's tons of value in it. 00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:49.890 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I know that the Ed Up guys chatted about that. 00:33:49.890 --> 00:33:51.260 Joe was sort of taking me through that. 00:33:51.690 --> 00:33:51.780 Sarah Holtan: Oh yeah. 00:33:51.780 --> 00:33:52.590 That's where I got the idea from. 00:33:52.830 --> 00:33:54.300 Neil McPhedran: Okay, great. 00:33:54.300 --> 00:33:57.510 I think we covered a number of things here today, Sarah, and I really 00:33:57.510 --> 00:34:03.360 appreciate you joining us and giving us some insights into what you've 00:34:03.360 --> 00:34:05.070 created, and I think it's just excellent. 00:34:05.070 --> 00:34:05.970 We really appreciate it. 00:34:06.560 --> 00:34:08.630 Sarah Holtan: Thank you, Neil and Jen, and thank you for all that you 00:34:08.630 --> 00:34:13.250 do to put out more information in an accessible format for the listeners. 00:34:13.429 --> 00:34:14.509 Jennifer-Lee: Thank you so much. 00:34:15.170 --> 00:34:17.120 Neil McPhedran: Jen, that was great conversation with Sarah. 00:34:17.120 --> 00:34:18.020 I really enjoyed that. 00:34:18.020 --> 00:34:25.100 I think there's some super applicable tips and things that we can be doing 00:34:25.310 --> 00:34:31.054 for our higher ed podcast and sort of figuring out how to keep church and 00:34:31.054 --> 00:34:37.174 state separate from your day job at the institution, but still be in this 00:34:37.174 --> 00:34:39.424 world of higher education podcasting. 00:34:40.085 --> 00:34:43.324 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and I think another great tip from her was that, 00:34:43.714 --> 00:34:47.915 really, if you're thinking of doing a podcast, make sure that you are 00:34:47.915 --> 00:34:51.784 having the discussions with, uh, the institute that you're working with. 00:34:51.784 --> 00:34:58.000 Because as we mentioned, sometimes when it comes down to ownership 00:34:58.150 --> 00:35:01.810 no one knows who owns the podcast. 00:35:01.810 --> 00:35:06.730 So if somebody helps build it up and they leave that institute and they put all the 00:35:06.730 --> 00:35:09.820 work into it, who gets ownership of it? 00:35:09.820 --> 00:35:12.100 So I think that was a really interesting that, that we never 00:35:12.100 --> 00:35:13.790 really talked about before. 00:35:13.790 --> 00:35:15.890 Neil McPhedran: The podcast prenup basically. 00:35:15.980 --> 00:35:17.000 Jennifer-Lee: Podcast prenup. 00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:17.720 I like that. 00:35:17.930 --> 00:35:20.120 Neil McPhedran: Now that I'm thinking about it after it kind of is, right? 00:35:20.120 --> 00:35:23.060 Like you go into a relationship, it's all hunky dory. 00:35:23.060 --> 00:35:26.390 You know, you're not thinking about it ending, but stuff happens. 00:35:26.600 --> 00:35:28.490 Jennifer-Lee: And you both put work into the relationship, care. 00:35:28.490 --> 00:35:29.030 Neil McPhedran: That's right. 00:35:29.210 --> 00:35:30.020 Right, right. 00:35:30.020 --> 00:35:31.130 It very much is that. 00:35:31.130 --> 00:35:38.050 So, some really good practical insights to apply to the podcasting 00:35:38.050 --> 00:35:40.420 space in the higher education world. 00:35:40.870 --> 00:35:42.490 So Jen, I think let's leave it there. 00:35:42.940 --> 00:35:45.700 Jennifer-Lee: Thank you for tuning into the Continuing Studies podcast, the 00:35:45.700 --> 00:35:47.860 podcast for higher education podcasters. 00:35:48.070 --> 00:35:51.460 We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring. 00:35:51.700 --> 00:35:55.120 If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our 00:35:55.120 --> 00:35:58.660 podcast on your preferred platform, so you'll never miss an episode. 00:35:58.660 --> 00:36:02.410 But if you found this episode particularly valuable, please consider 00:36:02.410 --> 00:36:05.230 sharing it with your friends and colleagues who also might be interested 00:36:05.230 --> 00:36:06.730 in higher education podcasts. 00:36:07.060 --> 00:36:11.830 We also invite you to join your peers on HigherEdPods.com, where you can connect 00:36:11.830 --> 00:36:15.930 with other podcasters in higher education and learn from others in the field. 00:36:16.350 --> 00:36:18.420 Thank you for being part of our community. 00:36:18.420 --> 00:36:22.830 We look forward to continuing to bring you valuable insights and conversations 00:36:22.830 --> 00:36:24.660 around higher education podcasts. 00:36:24.660 --> 00:36:25.950 See you in the next episode.