00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:04.422 Brian Gillette took his first MSP job as VP of sales and 00:00:04.429 --> 00:00:06.592 had to ask what MRR stood for. 00:00:06.989 --> 00:00:11.237 Three years later, that company had grown from about 700K to over 2 00:00:11.238 --> 00:00:15.043 million in recurring revenue, and he did it without a marketing budget. 00:00:15.936 --> 00:00:19.988 MSPs, he was an actor in LA, which is where he learned to hear "no" 00:00:20.020 --> 00:00:23.573 at auditions after audition and kept his self-worth out of it. 00:00:24.022 --> 00:00:28.272 Today, he runs Feelgood MSP, hosts the MSP Sales Podcast, and wrote 00:00:28.570 --> 00:00:31.817 How to Sell a Shitload of Managed Services Without Selling Your Soul. 00:00:31.910 --> 00:00:36.412 His approach, the Feelgood Close, is built for technical owners who hate 00:00:36.413 --> 00:00:38.855 the idea of being a salesperson. 00:00:39.680 --> 00:00:43.825 talking about why fear-based selling stopped working for MSPs and what 00:00:43.826 --> 00:00:49.006 replaced it when the person running the process would rather be fixing a server. 00:00:49.053 --> 00:00:51.628 Brian, welcome to the Evolved Radio Podcast. 00:00:52.085 --> 00:00:52.749 Thanks, Todd. 00:00:52.793 --> 00:00:55.861 I'm, uh, very honored and excited to be here 00:00:56.975 --> 00:00:58.080 I'm glad to have you. 00:00:58.144 --> 00:01:01.597 Uh, I, I mean, obviously I know you in the industry and have, uh, 00:01:01.626 --> 00:01:05.571 sent, sent some, some people your way as well, heard great things. 00:01:05.590 --> 00:01:10.199 But I saw you on the stage at ScaleCon, and there was a, a whole series of 00:01:10.200 --> 00:01:13.369 things that I was like, "Oh, damn, I gotta have Brian on the podcast." 00:01:13.375 --> 00:01:15.776 So, uh, this is gonna be great. 00:01:15.810 --> 00:01:18.182 Um, I love a lot of your takes. 00:01:18.238 --> 00:01:23.936 I feel like a lot of it is founded in really good data and information that 00:01:23.936 --> 00:01:25.815 you have, the systems that you use. 00:01:26.143 --> 00:01:30.105 But it feels somewhat counterintuitive, I think, to what also a lot of other 00:01:30.106 --> 00:01:32.319 people see or hear in the industry. 00:01:32.675 --> 00:01:34.351 So looking forward to the takes here. 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:40.004 Um, maybe to, to start us off with something fiery, um, I would love 00:01:40.006 --> 00:01:44.811 to hear you rank the worst to best typical prospecting strategies 00:01:44.821 --> 00:01:47.064 for a traditional tech-led MSP 00:01:48.064 --> 00:01:48.341 Oh, boy. 00:01:48.774 --> 00:01:49.155 Okay. 00:01:49.210 --> 00:01:53.979 Um, eh, I'll do my best to keep these in a linear order, but it 00:01:53.979 --> 00:01:57.478 might be sort of clusters, you know, o- of, of tiers, you know. 00:01:57.578 --> 00:01:57.878 Dat is mooi. 00:01:58.326 --> 00:02:02.005 Let's call D tier is, uh, what most people do, which is nothing. 00:02:02.797 --> 00:02:03.173 Like, 00:02:03.199 --> 00:02:03.925 Excellent start. 00:02:03.937 --> 00:02:04.289 Okay. 00:02:04.828 --> 00:02:06.259 doing… Let me say it this way. 00:02:06.506 --> 00:02:10.375 Doing a great job for your customers is not lead generation. 00:02:11.664 --> 00:02:17.362 That's just being a business, and you will get some customers just because 00:02:17.362 --> 00:02:20.129 you've hung a shingle if you just don't, if your business just doesn't 00:02:20.138 --> 00:02:21.878 die for several decades in a row. 00:02:21.922 --> 00:02:23.665 Yeah, but that's not what sales is. 00:02:24.256 --> 00:02:28.123 So waiting is gonna be, I'm gonna call that D tier. 00:02:28.212 --> 00:02:30.396 But then really anything else in the D tier 00:02:32.578 --> 00:02:36.186 Oh God, uh, how many enemies do I wanna make at once? 00:02:36.848 --> 00:02:42.732 Um, using canned material over and over again and then sending it out in mass. 00:02:44.654 --> 00:02:50.911 Um, like if we're still email- if we're still mailing people baggies of aspirin in 00:02:50.920 --> 00:02:54.683 envelopes, uh, I think it's just D tier. 00:02:54.685 --> 00:02:57.458 I think, I think it's… I just don't think it works. 00:02:57.569 --> 00:03:00.468 Um, and if it does work, you're not attracting the kind of people that 00:03:00.469 --> 00:03:01.650 you actually even wanna work with. 00:03:02.594 --> 00:03:03.271 And then 00:03:03.338 --> 00:03:07.844 the, uh, the prescribed Lenovo posted LinkedIn material, right? 00:03:07.916 --> 00:03:08.291 Ja 00:03:08.411 --> 00:03:11.259 do something like, like you said, doing nothing is the worst, but 00:03:11.483 --> 00:03:11.760 Yeah. 00:03:11.793 --> 00:03:13.525 know, that, that is, uh, not 00:03:13.591 --> 00:03:14.111 Yeah. 00:03:14.196 --> 00:03:14.405 it 00:03:14.777 --> 00:03:17.202 And I, yeah, I'm gonna put that stuff in C tier of, like, 00:03:17.533 --> 00:03:20.944 vendor-generated syndicated content. 00:03:21.513 --> 00:03:23.286 Like, what did Microsoft make for you? 00:03:23.295 --> 00:03:25.009 Like, they don't know how to sell this stuff. 00:03:25.010 --> 00:03:26.045 That's why they're channel. 00:03:26.361 --> 00:03:28.858 Like, they don't know how to-- They don't know what end users even want. 00:03:29.409 --> 00:03:32.843 So, uh, that's gonna be your C tier, and then I'm gonna call your B tier… 00:03:33.118 --> 00:03:38.594 A-and also down in there is just, like, AI forward automation is the worst possible 00:03:38.594 --> 00:03:40.617 way of building a high-trust relationship. 00:03:40.774 --> 00:03:44.343 Um, we're building high-trust relationships, so you can't start 00:03:44.570 --> 00:03:48.075 by looking like a schmuck who is sending them, like, "I noticed you 00:03:48.075 --> 00:03:52.324 breathe air. Our company synergizes with…" It's just nonsense. 00:03:52.920 --> 00:03:56.043 But then you're gonna get up into the B and A, A-tier stuff, and S-tier 00:03:56.052 --> 00:03:59.868 stuff is, like… I think one-to-one cold email is probably B tier. 00:03:59.961 --> 00:04:03.838 It's way better than people actually think it is, but it's not, it's, 00:04:03.856 --> 00:04:05.073 it's not the most effective. 00:04:05.083 --> 00:04:09.307 But if you're actually doing one-to-one emails, it works great, just 00:04:09.307 --> 00:04:10.670 nobody has the discipline to do it. 00:04:11.156 --> 00:04:16.589 Uh, A tier is gonna be your sort of marketing-supported cold calling, be that, 00:04:16.601 --> 00:04:20.468 be that in-person cold calling, like w- door-to-door, hitting people over the 00:04:20.470 --> 00:04:24.794 phone, uh, with lead magnets and marketing resources and follow-up, uh, cadences. 00:04:25.900 --> 00:04:29.417 And I'm gonna call S tier, like the best thing you could possibly do is going 00:04:29.417 --> 00:04:36.044 to be going to trade shows for your ideal markets and sending individual 00:04:36.050 --> 00:04:41.571 video prospecting to your prospects, sending videos of you talking to 00:04:41.572 --> 00:04:43.832 people one-on-one via LinkedIn or email 00:04:44.968 --> 00:04:47.881 So like actually recording like, "Hey Jim 00:04:48.143 --> 00:04:48.491 Yeah. 00:04:48.587 --> 00:04:49.675 and such company," like, 00:04:49.948 --> 00:04:50.183 Yeah. 00:04:50.655 --> 00:04:51.560 to a person, right? 00:04:51.928 --> 00:04:52.868 Hey, Jim, Sarah here. 00:04:52.868 --> 00:04:53.912 Just want you to know I'm not a robot. 00:04:53.929 --> 00:04:56.004 Listen, I was looking at your website the other day, noticed 00:04:56.004 --> 00:04:57.614 you guys work with Clio. 00:04:58.030 --> 00:05:01.135 Uh, we actually have 12 law firms in the greater Cleveland area that are 00:05:01.135 --> 00:05:03.460 working with Clio, and I wondered if you guys had figured out how to 00:05:03.460 --> 00:05:05.457 solve that pr- this one problem. 00:05:05.510 --> 00:05:06.993 We actually automated a way for another firm. 00:05:06.994 --> 00:05:08.972 We saved them, like, four hours of admin work a week. 00:05:09.407 --> 00:05:12.690 Anyway, just wanted to say hi, introduce myself, and, um, would love to connect 00:05:13.892 --> 00:05:18.569 I love the idea of sending video on LinkedIn because it, it sort 00:05:18.571 --> 00:05:22.840 of, again, like makes sense, but it feels counterintuitive because, um, 00:05:22.907 --> 00:05:26.085 video itself, depending on sort of the day of the week of the Microsoft 00:05:26.091 --> 00:05:28.478 algorithm, doesn't do great on LinkedIn. 00:05:28.923 --> 00:05:31.503 Uh, I think they're, they've been- made a couple of attempts to change 00:05:31.503 --> 00:05:34.902 that, but I think that's different if the video is directed at a person. 00:05:34.969 --> 00:05:35.748 So I think that's 00:05:35.764 --> 00:05:36.035 Yeah. 00:05:36.037 --> 00:05:36.855 That's a great suggestion. 00:05:37.268 --> 00:05:42.030 Even if it's a bad cold call, man, like I'm gonna open seven out of 10 videos that 00:05:42.033 --> 00:05:44.303 I get DM'd 'cause I don't get that many. 00:05:45.845 --> 00:05:48.446 But I'm not gonna open all the text ones, but I'm gonna open the video 00:05:48.447 --> 00:05:50.154 ones, and I'm gonna give it five seconds 00:05:50.875 --> 00:05:51.121 Yeah. 00:05:51.583 --> 00:05:52.293 Okay, that's cool. 00:05:52.321 --> 00:05:54.354 So, um, I love that. 00:05:54.371 --> 00:05:57.232 That's, uh, gives you good sort of ranking of, like, where we 00:05:57.232 --> 00:05:59.107 stand on what we should be using. 00:05:59.436 --> 00:06:03.791 Um, cold calling I think ranks higher than maybe people would want to do. 00:06:03.796 --> 00:06:06.159 We'll certainly circle back to that one in a minute here. 00:06:07.280 --> 00:06:11.494 Um, as technical people, we tend to overexplain the solution 00:06:11.536 --> 00:06:13.020 and talk a lot about features. 00:06:13.299 --> 00:06:14.969 Why is this a bad strategy? 00:06:14.982 --> 00:06:18.684 Because I think in our head as technical people, we're trying to explain a lot 00:06:18.686 --> 00:06:23.123 of the value of what we're delivering or what we do or what a solution has. 00:06:23.619 --> 00:06:27.640 But I get a sense that this is, from the limited sales training that I've 00:06:27.642 --> 00:06:29.898 done, uh, this is not the right play. 00:06:29.947 --> 00:06:30.625 Why is that? 00:06:30.770 --> 00:06:31.010 Yeah. 00:06:31.884 --> 00:06:36.183 Well, this is a good question, and it's one that I have an answer for, 00:06:36.183 --> 00:06:40.166 but then I have to give a, I have to give a second answer on top of it. 00:06:40.660 --> 00:06:44.914 So the reason it doesn't work is that nobody cares about 00:06:44.929 --> 00:06:47.347 how the sausage is made. 00:06:47.357 --> 00:06:49.135 They care how the sausage tastes. 00:06:49.666 --> 00:06:53.111 And actually, sausage is the example I use in Feelgood because the more 00:06:53.111 --> 00:06:56.337 I learn about how they made it, the less likely I am to buy it. 00:06:57.317 --> 00:06:59.948 So you don't sell sausage by showing people the factory, you 00:06:59.948 --> 00:07:02.762 show sa- you sell sausage by asking people if they're hungry. 00:07:03.910 --> 00:07:07.530 And that's my example for you have to go to the outcomes. 00:07:07.589 --> 00:07:12.569 But this is the thing, Todd, that's actually really, uh, irritating to me. 00:07:13.826 --> 00:07:17.588 Somebody… There'll be a talking point in the zeitgeist about sales, and then 00:07:18.115 --> 00:07:20.014 you'll have, like, an influencer say it. 00:07:20.418 --> 00:07:23.677 Then you're gonna get your tier two influencers will start parroting it. 00:07:24.078 --> 00:07:28.933 Then you get your tier three influencers, which is, like, somebody reposting an Alex 00:07:28.934 --> 00:07:31.688 Hormozi tweet on their LinkedIn account. 00:07:31.779 --> 00:07:35.788 Like, they're not… And then they'll get 20,000 re- likes, likes on that image. 00:07:36.097 --> 00:07:37.274 They didn't originate anything. 00:07:37.275 --> 00:07:40.206 They're essentially just distributing other people's thoughts, right? 00:07:40.679 --> 00:07:44.852 And then it, then it gets down into the layman, the everyday people, 00:07:45.772 --> 00:07:46.930 the you and mes of the world. 00:07:47.180 --> 00:07:51.298 You know, the MSP owners who were all at the, at IT Nation together going, 00:07:51.298 --> 00:07:55.103 "You gotta sell outcomes. You gotta sell outcomes." But nobody knows what the hell 00:07:55.104 --> 00:07:57.885 that means, and nobody knows how to do it. 00:07:58.673 --> 00:08:02.401 So they say, "Don't sell speeds and feeds. Don't sell jargon. Don't use acronyms." 00:08:02.512 --> 00:08:04.092 Okay, but what are you gonna say instead? 00:08:04.222 --> 00:08:07.598 You're just gonna say, "We just handle it." And they go, "Handle what?" 00:08:07.873 --> 00:08:12.379 "Everything." "I'm good." Because they don't… There's no direct value. 00:08:12.659 --> 00:08:17.379 So yes, it doesn't work because the more people understand the product, the less 00:08:17.380 --> 00:08:21.977 likely they are to want to use it, uh, the un- the inner workings of a product. 00:08:22.145 --> 00:08:28.491 But you have to replace that sales, that airtime of your sales process with 00:08:28.492 --> 00:08:30.304 something that's worth talking about. 00:08:31.155 --> 00:08:35.158 Any sales thought, quote-unquote thought leader can tell you what to not do. 00:08:35.680 --> 00:08:39.454 But this is the evidence of somebody who's creating value for the market or 00:08:39.455 --> 00:08:44.367 parroting other thought leaders, is the people who only ever disparage methods 00:08:44.372 --> 00:08:49.026 and they don't give you a replacement method, which drives me up the wall. 00:08:49.569 --> 00:08:51.978 So instead, this is how you actually create outcomes. 00:08:51.978 --> 00:08:52.807 I'm gonna explain it. 00:08:53.597 --> 00:08:54.885 Look at the speeds and feeds. 00:08:54.887 --> 00:08:55.955 Look at the technical stuff. 00:08:55.958 --> 00:08:57.623 And by that I mean look at your tech stack. 00:08:57.623 --> 00:08:59.069 Write it down on a Google Doc. 00:08:59.238 --> 00:09:01.080 Or I mean a, a… Sorry, a Word doc. 00:09:01.704 --> 00:09:02.817 Who am I t- who am I talking to? 00:09:02.818 --> 00:09:03.252 MSPs. 00:09:03.576 --> 00:09:07.478 Write it on a Microsoft Word doc, every single thing in the stack. 00:09:07.494 --> 00:09:10.228 Then give me one sentence that says, what does that thing do? 00:09:10.909 --> 00:09:13.021 And this doesn't have to be public-facing, so internally. 00:09:13.049 --> 00:09:14.665 What does SentinelOne do? 00:09:15.664 --> 00:09:17.599 What does IT Glue do? 00:09:19.316 --> 00:09:19.935 Fill in the blank. 00:09:20.373 --> 00:09:26.302 Then after that, say, um, why should my prospect care? 00:09:26.436 --> 00:09:27.185 That's a new column. 00:09:27.537 --> 00:09:31.821 Now I need one sentence that explains why the prospect should 00:09:31.821 --> 00:09:34.653 care that that tool does that thing 00:09:36.948 --> 00:09:39.679 And then you wanna go one layer further that says, what 00:09:39.681 --> 00:09:41.526 does it help the prospect do? 00:09:44.410 --> 00:09:48.784 So, okay, the fact that I have documentation all centralized 00:09:48.813 --> 00:09:53.825 and keyworded and indexed is amazing for helping me run my MSP. 00:09:54.500 --> 00:09:56.445 But actually, can we find a through line? 00:09:56.714 --> 00:10:01.499 So now, why should my customer care that my documentation is on point 00:10:03.637 --> 00:10:07.555 Well, on the top of my head, um, they-- we are not going to 00:10:07.558 --> 00:10:09.340 have repetitive conversations. 00:10:09.646 --> 00:10:13.410 If they-- If you spoke to Clark on my team two weeks ago and you're 00:10:13.411 --> 00:10:17.358 speaking to Rubio on my team today, Rubio knows what you said to Clark. 00:10:18.245 --> 00:10:20.703 So they don't have to repeat themselves, which is one of the 00:10:20.711 --> 00:10:24.653 biggest frustrations of any outsource support is getting transferred 00:10:24.660 --> 00:10:26.141 and starting the story over again. 00:10:27.188 --> 00:10:27.237 Absolutely 00:10:27.920 --> 00:10:31.298 And then you could, you could extrapolate, like support calls are 00:10:31.299 --> 00:10:36.365 faster, tighter, and we will get better over time so that they are going to 00:10:36.366 --> 00:10:43.223 get white glove, individualized custom support every time, and that they will 00:10:43.237 --> 00:10:46.727 build a relationship over time with their support team that's just going 00:10:46.728 --> 00:10:48.317 to make it easier to work with us. 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:50.701 Does that make sense? 00:10:51.179 --> 00:10:55.653 Yeah, so I love this because, like I am of two minds of this because I 00:10:55.655 --> 00:11:01.190 think a lot of what MSPs struggle with, especially in sort of a modern sale, is 00:11:01.224 --> 00:11:04.077 f- uh, combating commoditization, right? 00:11:04.145 --> 00:11:08.680 And the way that we go through this, I think it kinda lends to a bit of 00:11:08.680 --> 00:11:13.639 commoditization, but I think the answer is also in the same recipe of if 00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:17.061 you're talking about these things in a unique way that the rest of the market 00:11:17.107 --> 00:11:20.279 isn't, right, because you have a more sophisticated approach to how you're 00:11:20.547 --> 00:11:24.485 communicating the value that you're delivering, you're already differentiated. 00:11:24.701 --> 00:11:27.931 Is-- Do you think that that's true, or is sort of, is there like a more 00:11:27.931 --> 00:11:32.585 advanced class for how you differentiate as an MSP, assuming that we kind of have 00:11:32.586 --> 00:11:35.899 very similar stack and we're producing the same outcomes for a business? 00:11:36.508 --> 00:11:36.835 Yeah. 00:11:36.920 --> 00:11:40.922 Um, I have a lot of loaded… I have a lot of opinions on the topic of 00:11:40.924 --> 00:11:45.462 differentiation, and yes, we have to differentiate, sure, if we don't 00:11:45.462 --> 00:11:47.263 want to be in a c- a commodity. 00:11:47.503 --> 00:11:50.004 But also, some people just might be fine being a commodity. 00:11:50.126 --> 00:11:54.938 Like, maybe you just wanna be a commodity, and you wanna have 10,000 clients. 00:11:54.999 --> 00:11:56.632 Like, f- good for you. 00:11:56.798 --> 00:12:00.559 That's not what I personally wanna do, but if that's what you are interested 00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:02.296 in, there's th- you could go that route. 00:12:02.309 --> 00:12:07.115 You could go super specific, you know, and low friction. 00:12:07.211 --> 00:12:10.803 You could be the, uh, the Electric AIs or whatever that… 00:12:10.828 --> 00:12:11.850 You remember that company that, 00:12:11.877 --> 00:12:12.662 Yep, absolutely 00:12:13.196 --> 00:12:17.673 Or, like, the, the Ripple IT now is, like, they're trying to get into the MSP space. 00:12:18.042 --> 00:12:21.212 That's a commoditizised, uh, commoditized version, and that's going to be 00:12:21.213 --> 00:12:23.058 very successful for those people. 00:12:23.714 --> 00:12:29.050 But everybody obsesses over different, but you have to remember that they don't 00:12:29.051 --> 00:12:30.539 want different for different's sake. 00:12:31.406 --> 00:12:32.630 What they want is not different. 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:35.730 What they want is better, right? 00:12:36.474 --> 00:12:40.915 So, like, "Hey, we're different because all of our techs also speak 00:12:40.915 --> 00:12:44.373 Klingon, and nobody else can do that." 00:12:44.949 --> 00:12:46.162 Like, well, congratulations. 00:12:46.162 --> 00:12:50.573 You're different than everybody else in a way that benefits me not at all. 00:12:52.008 --> 00:12:58.026 So we get so obsessed over differentiating the method, and we 00:12:58.027 --> 00:12:59.931 need to differentiate the effect. 00:13:00.886 --> 00:13:02.173 I'm gonna give you an example. 00:13:02.377 --> 00:13:04.834 Are, is this on video, Todd, or we only release audio? 00:13:06.586 --> 00:13:10.171 Most, like 80% of listeners are audio only, but yeah, 00:13:10.901 --> 00:13:11.290 Okay 00:13:11.344 --> 00:13:12.337 is, is usable. 00:13:12.546 --> 00:13:15.496 If, if we want- if you wanna see what's happen- about to happen here, 00:13:15.772 --> 00:13:19.131 the magic trick, then uh, then check out the YouTube channel as well, but 00:13:19.482 --> 00:13:22.765 So magic trick, do, do you know what I'm holding in my hands right now? 00:13:23.964 --> 00:13:24.750 A deck of cards. 00:13:24.968 --> 00:13:26.008 Oh, holy crap. 00:13:26.022 --> 00:13:26.649 Okay, I called it. 00:13:27.218 --> 00:13:27.934 So you did call it. 00:13:28.187 --> 00:13:31.070 So literally, uh, uh, you can listen along or you don't have to … I, 00:13:31.078 --> 00:13:36.566 I'm not a professional magician, but this is my, my ADHD fidget totem of 00:13:36.568 --> 00:13:38.029 choice is a deck of cards, right? 00:13:38.405 --> 00:13:42.772 But point being that magicians like to fixate, they like to impress other 00:13:42.772 --> 00:13:49.146 magicians by getting, finding unique methods, and the truth is that you 00:13:49.147 --> 00:13:54.325 could use the same method for every single card trick, but if the effect 00:13:54.342 --> 00:13:57.473 is different, then the audience will have no idea that you did the 00:13:57.474 --> 00:13:58.674 same trick over and over again. 00:13:59.845 --> 00:14:00.420 You know what I mean? 00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:03.457 Like, if I have a way of getting a card… Hang on. 00:14:05.169 --> 00:14:07.554 I can't believe I'm doing this, but like I have a way of showing 00:14:07.555 --> 00:14:09.497 you that jack of diamonds, right? 00:14:10.466 --> 00:14:13.054 I already flashed, but if I can take the jack of diamonds, put 00:14:13.054 --> 00:14:13.840 it in the middle of the deck 00:14:17.487 --> 00:14:18.821 And then produce it on top again. 00:14:20.302 --> 00:14:21.631 So I could do that. 00:14:21.662 --> 00:14:22.728 That's one method. 00:14:23.099 --> 00:14:25.060 I could show you all sorts of different methods. 00:14:26.242 --> 00:14:29.406 That's a totally different method, same trick. 00:14:30.552 --> 00:14:33.055 So I'm not gonna get credit for two different tricks. 00:14:33.090 --> 00:14:35.650 The audience is gonna go, "You just did that trick." No, I did 00:14:35.650 --> 00:14:38.084 a totally different trick, but it was the stuff that you don't see. 00:14:38.095 --> 00:14:39.277 The method was different. 00:14:39.277 --> 00:14:42.555 The outcome or the effect was diff- was the same. 00:14:43.076 --> 00:14:45.239 I took a card from the middle of the deck to the top of the deck. 00:14:46.090 --> 00:14:51.499 So we have to differentiate not the method, but the effect. 00:14:53.229 --> 00:14:55.911 And it has to, again, not just be different, it has to be better. 00:14:55.914 --> 00:14:58.016 I know this is a long answer, Todd, but we can cut it down. 00:14:58.858 --> 00:15:02.608 Um, so what does better mean? 00:15:03.208 --> 00:15:05.131 That's the question you need to ask yourself. 00:15:05.162 --> 00:15:11.290 To the people you're doing IT support for, if you can't give them a better 00:15:11.290 --> 00:15:16.418 experience on the effect, it does not matter whether you do it the same or 00:15:16.420 --> 00:15:17.998 different than all of your competitors 00:15:18.650 --> 00:15:24.637 I think this is where a lot of MSP owners and s- like, uh, junior salespeople 00:15:24.637 --> 00:15:30.035 try to go to and do a pretty, average job at it, maybe sub average, because 00:15:30.357 --> 00:15:33.198 they're communicating things that really don't matter and are not sort 00:15:33.198 --> 00:15:35.138 of like differentiated value, right? 00:15:35.138 --> 00:15:37.690 They say, "We're better because we have the best people." 00:15:37.726 --> 00:15:39.743 Like bullshit, like how can I judge that? 00:15:39.772 --> 00:15:42.590 Like ev- the other three people that I had in the boardroom here 00:15:42.590 --> 00:15:43.861 said they had the best people too. 00:15:44.248 --> 00:15:47.515 Or, "We're proactive," which, you know, quite frankly has never really 00:15:47.515 --> 00:15:49.203 been that true in the industry anyway. 00:15:49.589 --> 00:15:53.969 Uh, you know, "We're, we're, uh, we care." Uh, okay, do you? 00:15:54.013 --> 00:15:54.222 Right? 00:15:54.222 --> 00:15:57.378 Like I don't know how you operate, so like why am I gonna believe you that 00:15:57.379 --> 00:16:02.428 that's gonna be true when the previous two MSPs that I've had relationships 00:16:02.428 --> 00:16:06.075 with were kind of terrible, and I'm judging you based on those relationships. 00:16:06.335 --> 00:16:08.740 So what are we, we then trying to communicate? 00:16:08.741 --> 00:16:10.726 'Cause these are not the things, in my opinion 00:16:11.324 --> 00:16:11.748 That's right. 00:16:12.055 --> 00:16:15.826 You have to remember that managed services is a service business. 00:16:17.002 --> 00:16:18.859 We're a customer service business. 00:16:19.128 --> 00:16:20.662 We're not a technology business. 00:16:21.503 --> 00:16:24.431 Like, our job is to help businesses do their job. 00:16:25.229 --> 00:16:27.943 So it's not to be impressively intelligent. 00:16:28.127 --> 00:16:30.233 Like, who gives a shit, dude, how smart you are? 00:16:30.233 --> 00:16:30.996 Who gives a shit? 00:16:31.009 --> 00:16:32.862 If it doesn't help me, why would I care? 00:16:33.324 --> 00:16:38.929 So you have to ask yourself those really hard questions, and the only way to do 00:16:38.930 --> 00:16:44.364 that is to understand who you're trying to do IT support for, and then talk to 00:16:44.372 --> 00:16:46.117 those people and ask them the questions. 00:16:46.118 --> 00:16:49.593 Like, "What do you want from an IT partner that you've never gotten 00:16:49.593 --> 00:16:52.234 before?" And then figure out how to work backwards from that. 00:16:52.261 --> 00:16:55.810 So they go, "Can you make the card come out of my pocket?" Like, yeah, 00:16:55.811 --> 00:16:59.141 let me build an a … Let me build a method that will give y- that effect. 00:16:59.407 --> 00:17:01.900 Let me figure out how to work backwards from the desired effect. 00:17:01.915 --> 00:17:03.403 That's how you build a good magic trick. 00:17:03.908 --> 00:17:07.068 And so the way you build a good sales proposition is you work backwards 00:17:07.069 --> 00:17:08.936 from what they want out of you 00:17:10.413 --> 00:17:13.143 So again, comes to personalization, right? 00:17:13.143 --> 00:17:16.018 Like the best outreach that you kind of noted was, 00:17:16.169 --> 00:17:16.179 Mhm 00:17:16.326 --> 00:17:17.841 a high level of personalization. 00:17:17.871 --> 00:17:22.455 And in the sales process, again, I would say it also echoes in account management. 00:17:22.789 --> 00:17:27.950 The more personalized, the more specific it feels to this conversation that 00:17:27.950 --> 00:17:31.895 I'm having with you is about you and not just sort of like the script that 00:17:31.895 --> 00:17:35.614 I'm talking to everyone else with, then that feels differentiated, right? 00:17:35.898 --> 00:17:36.724 Yeah, exactly. 00:17:37.379 --> 00:17:37.605 Yeah. 00:17:37.666 --> 00:17:39.481 there are tactics we, we could get into. 00:17:39.655 --> 00:17:43.280 We could ha- I could tell you how to make people like you more and make people feel 00:17:43.280 --> 00:17:47.473 more special with, like, two or three essentially conversational gimmicks, 00:17:47.714 --> 00:17:52.418 you know, to help people with low social IQ, like, feign higher social IQ. 00:17:52.853 --> 00:17:57.030 There's some of those moves we could do, but, um, on the front end of sales, we, 00:17:57.059 --> 00:18:00.954 we just have to remember that, like, we're not entitled to people caring about us 00:18:00.973 --> 00:18:05.139 simply because we are very good at what we do, and we're not entitled to people 00:18:05.139 --> 00:18:08.235 buying our services just because we're passionate about doing it the right way. 00:18:08.852 --> 00:18:13.812 That is our responsibility to the market, is make them care about it, you know? 00:18:14.104 --> 00:18:15.451 Um, and that's the starting point. 00:18:15.457 --> 00:18:17.203 So you, you wanna work backwards. 00:18:17.218 --> 00:18:21.220 You wanna work from, you know, the outside in rather than inside out when 00:18:21.221 --> 00:18:26.417 you're talk- meaning s- work from the client back to you when you're looking 00:18:26.418 --> 00:18:31.392 for differentiation, not inside out and then seeing if the client accepts it 00:18:33.002 --> 00:18:33.189 Okay. 00:18:34.242 --> 00:18:40.682 thing that MSPs tend to run into a lot in prospecting is just sort of 00:18:41.015 --> 00:18:43.064 whatever I have is good enough, right? 00:18:43.064 --> 00:18:47.761 Like gone are the days where there was lots of golden opportunity of converting 00:18:47.765 --> 00:18:51.934 people that were on T&M contracts to this amazing, amazing thing called an MSP. 00:18:52.276 --> 00:18:58.905 And now most businesses either have an MSP or some type of IT provider that, 00:18:59.019 --> 00:19:02.267 you know, maybe is not knocking it out of the park, but they're just not 00:19:02.268 --> 00:19:05.918 interested in entertaining something new because they don't feel that it 00:19:05.918 --> 00:19:10.983 will be different or better, or the pain is too great to sort of make a switch. 00:19:11.247 --> 00:19:15.376 So if, if you're doing some cold calling or, you know, dropping into 00:19:15.378 --> 00:19:18.368 some, some offices and people are like, "Oh yeah, we've already got an 00:19:18.375 --> 00:19:23.117 IT guy," what are some tactics to sort of like go a level deeper and, and 00:19:23.117 --> 00:19:24.751 sort of push past that resistance? 00:19:25.425 --> 00:19:25.716 Yeah. 00:19:25.887 --> 00:19:29.129 Um, I'll tell you the thing everybody thinks is gonna work that doesn't 00:19:29.133 --> 00:19:35.928 work is basically saying… Looking for missed opportunity cost by 00:19:35.930 --> 00:19:39.800 them having, like, a mediocre provider, it just never translates. 00:19:39.872 --> 00:19:42.792 It actually just makes you look desperate to be like, "Okay, well, 00:19:42.792 --> 00:19:45.289 what if, you know, what if w- I could have done it a little bit better? 00:19:45.291 --> 00:19:47.832 How do you think that would've changed your business if you were only down for 00:19:47.832 --> 00:19:51.899 one minute instead of an hour, and maybe you could've gotten an extra client? 00:19:51.899 --> 00:19:55.240 And how much would that be worth to you?" And, like, trying to extrapolate 00:19:55.256 --> 00:20:01.482 and find value through hypothetical opportunity cost from the status quo. 00:20:01.604 --> 00:20:02.744 It just never works. 00:20:03.466 --> 00:20:08.774 Um, instead, if somebody has somebody that they're happy with, there's a 90% 00:20:08.774 --> 00:20:12.153 chance that they don't need you to sell them anything, and maybe you should just 00:20:12.153 --> 00:20:18.503 stop selling and go, "Sounds like you don- sounds like you're content." Uh, and 00:20:18.503 --> 00:20:22.908 that's where I would start by, by kind of taking it away a little bit, you know? 00:20:23.325 --> 00:20:25.020 If they go, "You know, I actually have an IT guy. 00:20:25.235 --> 00:20:29.235 We love him." You go, "Okay, it sounds like, sounds like you guys are set up. 00:20:29.243 --> 00:20:32.229 Th- this might probably be the last time we need to have a conversation. 00:20:32.229 --> 00:20:34.453 I just wanna make sure I, uh… If you don't mind, let me ask a couple 00:20:34.454 --> 00:20:40.215 questions before I go." Because, because under those circumstances we don't 00:20:40.215 --> 00:20:45.628 want to assume that their definition of IT is the same as our definition of 00:20:45.628 --> 00:20:50.265 IT, or that their definition of good is the same as our definition of good. 00:20:51.430 --> 00:20:54.185 So we could be like, "Okay, so just so I cl- what does he do for 00:20:54.185 --> 00:20:59.876 you, just so I can ask?" And he might only do a couple things. 00:20:59.876 --> 00:21:04.296 Maybe it's just he sold them a firewall that leased with a internet 00:21:04.296 --> 00:21:08.558 circuit through Sandler part- Sandler Partners, and then he comes by once 00:21:08.558 --> 00:21:11.687 a month and defrags their computer, and they're, like, really happy. 00:21:12.544 --> 00:21:15.948 All right, but that's not what you sell, so that could lead 00:21:15.948 --> 00:21:17.032 to a different conversation. 00:21:17.979 --> 00:21:20.874 Maybe it's, like, an MSP that actually is way better than 00:21:20.876 --> 00:21:22.868 you and you couldn't beat them. 00:21:23.552 --> 00:21:27.098 But we don't know until we figure out, like, what does this person do, you know? 00:21:27.798 --> 00:21:31.575 But you wanna do that on the way out the door, i- if you will, uh, um, 00:21:31.587 --> 00:21:33.416 figuratively speaking, meaning know… 00:21:33.430 --> 00:21:38.607 Make sure that they hear you and don't ignore what they said. 00:21:39.360 --> 00:21:41.350 Don't be like, "We have an IT guy, but h- but how do you know he's 00:21:41.351 --> 00:21:43.736 as good as me, and what, how do you know I'm not better than him?" 00:21:44.645 --> 00:21:45.878 It's just not gonna be successful. 00:21:45.888 --> 00:21:48.662 Go, uh, I call it, I call it closing the folder. 00:21:49.140 --> 00:21:51.660 Like, you have a sales folder in front of them and they go, "We're happy." 00:21:51.660 --> 00:21:53.573 You go, "Okay," and you close the folder. 00:21:53.657 --> 00:21:55.526 And now they feel safer. 00:21:55.962 --> 00:21:58.865 You… They feel like you're not gonna keep pushing super hard, and they might 00:21:58.866 --> 00:22:02.026 be a little bit more candid with you, and it also demonstrates that you're… 00:22:02.098 --> 00:22:03.248 it's just a conversation 00:22:03.506 --> 00:22:04.030 That's right. 00:22:04.234 --> 00:22:04.550 That's right. 00:22:04.550 --> 00:22:05.531 And you're listening to them. 00:22:05.631 --> 00:22:07.336 Um, so that's kind of the move. 00:22:07.363 --> 00:22:10.703 And then, you know, like, you could always do the, like, "Would you like 00:22:10.704 --> 00:22:11.954 to see what good looks like from us?" 00:22:11.954 --> 00:22:12.676 But why would they? 00:22:12.733 --> 00:22:15.158 If they don't have any pain, then there's just, there's no sale 00:22:16.448 --> 00:22:19.781 So is this, like this is not a matter of like there's a way to sort of 00:22:19.790 --> 00:22:21.919 hack this resistance and get past it? 00:22:21.921 --> 00:22:25.046 It's really just sort of you should move on to greener pasture and find somebody 00:22:25.048 --> 00:22:26.776 else who is maybe having some pain? 00:22:28.378 --> 00:22:30.408 It could, yeah, I think very often, yeah. 00:22:30.447 --> 00:22:34.077 Um, what I… It doesn't mean that the second somebody objects, 00:22:34.081 --> 00:22:35.604 you just, like, cower away. 00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:40.633 Again, it's about b- the, the move here is not to become persistent, 00:22:41.209 --> 00:22:43.160 the move is to become curious. 00:22:44.575 --> 00:22:47.447 And if you could become genuinely curious and like, "Wow, you know 00:22:47.447 --> 00:22:52.912 what? I'm actually, I'm really s- pardon me being so aghast, but you 00:22:52.912 --> 00:22:55.796 don't know how rare it is that I meet somebody who loves their IT guy." 00:22:57.178 --> 00:23:00.149 And they chuckle, and you go, "Do you mind if I ask what makes you love him?" 00:23:02.677 --> 00:23:06.325 And talk about, get them to talk about what he's doing right instead 00:23:06.325 --> 00:23:08.925 of saying, "What is he doing wrong that I could improve?" Because 00:23:08.926 --> 00:23:10.529 then they, they feel exploited. 00:23:10.529 --> 00:23:13.224 They're like, "I just told you to go away, and you didn't hear me." You 00:23:13.224 --> 00:23:17.020 go, "Wow, I'm just gonna be honest, so many people don't like IT guys 00:23:17.022 --> 00:23:18.195 because our industry, you know it. 00:23:18.230 --> 00:23:21.138 You know what we're like." And they chuckle. "Do you mind if 00:23:21.138 --> 00:23:22.306 I ask what you love about him? 00:23:22.695 --> 00:23:26.386 Like, what, what makes you happy?" And then get some information there, and then 00:23:26.386 --> 00:23:29.678 go, "Okay, and he's probably got your cybers handled, and I'm assuming that he's 00:23:29.678 --> 00:23:31.393 got a plan for you guys to use AI, right? 00:23:31.393 --> 00:23:32.653 He sounds like he's on top of it." 00:23:33.395 --> 00:23:35.214 And that would be your way of … That's sort of a 00:23:35.214 --> 00:23:37.020 non-threatening discovery question. 00:23:37.995 --> 00:23:41.841 "So he's good on AI, you're good on, uh, cyber, and then you gu- are 00:23:41.841 --> 00:23:43.849 good on X other thing that we do. 00:23:43.867 --> 00:23:45.397 You guys, your phones are covered and stuff. 00:23:45.830 --> 00:23:49.190 Well, listen, it sounds like you guys f- found a, found a good, uh, found a winner. 00:23:49.732 --> 00:23:53.102 Um, you tell me, Miss Customer, is there any reason for me to even 00:23:53.102 --> 00:23:54.291 follow up with you in the future?" 00:23:56.433 --> 00:23:59.314 And the truth is, Todd, that if they actually have any cur- any 00:23:59.316 --> 00:24:01.568 need in there, they're gonna be like, "Well, what do you do?" 00:24:02.486 --> 00:24:02.496 Right. 00:24:02.496 --> 00:24:02.506 Yeah 00:24:02.701 --> 00:24:05.843 Because you've, you've demonstrated like an, being a normal person. 00:24:06.745 --> 00:24:08.215 But if you just go, "Well, how do you know? 00:24:08.216 --> 00:24:10.948 I'm probably better than him, and maybe you're overpaying, and let me just see a 00:24:10.948 --> 00:24:14.835 quote," and, and trying to force people who don't, aren't asking for anything 00:24:14.836 --> 00:24:17.754 into a sale, you end up in a bad spot 00:24:18.374 --> 00:24:19.317 Yeah, that's great. 00:24:19.401 --> 00:24:19.875 I love that. 00:24:20.269 --> 00:24:27.011 Um, another issue that people tend to face is relying a little too much on FUD, and I 00:24:27.018 --> 00:24:27.028 Mhm. 00:24:27.182 --> 00:24:30.164 that you're kind of very much against fear-based sales. 00:24:30.541 --> 00:24:35.611 Um, but I think people kinda hear this as a way to sort of break 00:24:35.617 --> 00:24:39.030 through to a business owner that really doesn't care about IT. 00:24:39.040 --> 00:24:42.723 And quite frankly, like that's most of the MSP prospecting market. 00:24:42.736 --> 00:24:43.849 They don't know what we do. 00:24:43.866 --> 00:24:45.081 They don't particularly care. 00:24:45.082 --> 00:24:47.144 That's why they're partnering with you. 00:24:47.482 --> 00:24:52.072 So how do you break through to kind of a reluctantly engaged prospect 00:24:52.087 --> 00:24:53.621 where they're like, "Eh, I don't know. 00:24:53.621 --> 00:24:54.146 I don't care. 00:24:54.176 --> 00:24:56.308 I, I, I don't think any of this is very interesting. 00:24:56.310 --> 00:24:59.343 I don't think I need this." Uh, if you're not gonna rely on 00:24:59.355 --> 00:25:00.751 FUD, then how do you do that? 00:25:00.793 --> 00:25:04.178 Saying like, this is past, you know, you've-- you're actually in a meeting 00:25:04.178 --> 00:25:07.890 with them talking about what you do and what you offer, or even more so 00:25:07.927 --> 00:25:12.289 in a QBR, like from the, a bit more on the account management strategy, 00:25:12.435 --> 00:25:15.917 similar approaches, but they're just sort of like, "Meh, I'm not that 00:25:15.917 --> 00:25:19.906 interested," and people tend to rely on fear in order to drive that engagement. 00:25:19.924 --> 00:25:22.991 So if that's the wrong approach, how do you sort of get to the 00:25:22.991 --> 00:25:24.378 same result in a different way? 00:25:24.910 --> 00:25:25.201 Yeah. 00:25:25.230 --> 00:25:25.602 Yeah. 00:25:26.411 --> 00:25:28.794 Well, l- imagine it this way, right? 00:25:28.794 --> 00:25:30.456 That, like, all business 00:25:32.819 --> 00:25:39.434 Leader, most of business leadership is about mitigating risk, not just on 00:25:39.438 --> 00:25:44.196 IT, but like people who go to business school are actually considerably less 00:25:44.196 --> 00:25:49.727 likely to be entrepreneurs because what they teach you in business school is 00:25:49.774 --> 00:25:56.834 everything that can go wrong and how to m- how to, uh, mitigate risk and l- like 00:25:56.843 --> 00:25:59.072 shorten as much downside as possible. 00:25:59.884 --> 00:26:07.722 And, and yet, is a CFO using FUD when the CFO goes, "Yeah, you can't spend 00:26:07.722 --> 00:26:11.333 more money than you make here, John Cho. You can't keep doing that. You're gonna 00:26:11.333 --> 00:26:15.689 run out of money." Like, that's not FUD, that's just business leadership. 00:26:16.348 --> 00:26:20.309 And so the thing is that when we don't hold ourselves or we aren't 00:26:20.314 --> 00:26:26.253 perceived at, at an executive level as a true thought leader in technology, 00:26:26.818 --> 00:26:30.709 then we come across as, like… 00:26:31.878 --> 00:26:34.314 Did you ever, do you ever watch The Office, the American Office? 00:26:35.838 --> 00:26:36.303 Well, 00:26:36.443 --> 00:26:37.761 the memes, but never watched it, 00:26:37.877 --> 00:26:38.535 well, okay. 00:26:38.536 --> 00:26:42.091 Well, there's an episode where there's insurance, there's this Italian-American 00:26:42.092 --> 00:26:46.085 insurance guy who comes in and he's a really pushy sales guy, and Michael 00:26:46.119 --> 00:26:50.046 thinks he's getting shaken down by the mob bec- just because he's Italian. 00:26:50.528 --> 00:26:55.122 But he sells insurance, and he was like, "Hey, you never know. A truck r- runs off 00:26:55.124 --> 00:26:59.634 the side of the road, there's injury. This place could go up in flames tomorrow." And 00:26:59.636 --> 00:27:02.370 he just sounds like a schmuck, you know? 00:27:02.745 --> 00:27:05.196 Uh, and you don't take him seriously as an it… And then he's like, 00:27:05.197 --> 00:27:07.831 "I'm gonna keep following up. I'm gonna be very persistent." 00:27:08.431 --> 00:27:11.424 And then Michael goes, "Oh my God, I think he's in the mob and I think 00:27:11.425 --> 00:27:14.006 he's threatening my life." It's actually, now that I think about 00:27:14.008 --> 00:27:15.086 it, it's a great example for this. 00:27:15.495 --> 00:27:21.078 Like, you can talk about risk mitigation without it having to be fear-mongering. 00:27:21.605 --> 00:27:25.699 It's really more about the positioning and how you wanna be perceived. 00:27:26.846 --> 00:27:27.462 Do you know what I mean? 00:27:27.662 --> 00:27:30.372 So yes, when somebody's like, "Hey, I just don't care about 00:27:30.372 --> 00:27:31.529 cyber," you go, "Yeah, of course. 00:27:31.530 --> 00:27:32.209 I don't blame you. 00:27:32.215 --> 00:27:35.153 I wouldn't… Th- that's why I'm here is so that you don't 00:27:35.154 --> 00:27:36.217 have to care about cyber. 00:27:36.464 --> 00:27:38.896 But let me explain w- what that means. 00:27:39.494 --> 00:27:41.735 My job is to close a bunch of doors for you. 00:27:41.786 --> 00:27:45.484 I just told you that these ones are open, and today I'm not equipped 00:27:45.532 --> 00:27:46.784 to close them on your behalf. 00:27:46.928 --> 00:27:50.605 So really, if you'd like to continue not caring about this, you need to 00:27:50.605 --> 00:27:52.424 empower me to take care of it for you. 00:27:53.910 --> 00:27:55.430 Do you want me to keep being your IT guy? 00:27:55.462 --> 00:27:55.810 Good. 00:27:55.847 --> 00:27:57.505 This will be the last time we talk about it. 00:27:57.523 --> 00:28:00.646 Just give me the keys to the kingdom and I will keep it safe 00:28:00.657 --> 00:28:03.215 for you." I don't think that's FUD. 00:28:03.442 --> 00:28:04.191 Do you know what I'm saying? 00:28:04.651 --> 00:28:05.478 But where 00:28:05.547 --> 00:28:06.965 stewardship in a m- more so, 00:28:07.162 --> 00:28:08.302 it's, it's exactly right. 00:28:08.302 --> 00:28:11.727 We're steward- we are stewards of their business so that, and they are 00:28:11.729 --> 00:28:14.721 stewards of their business, and you can empower someone to be a steward 00:28:14.721 --> 00:28:19.701 without being like, you know, be- being extreme, being the other way. 00:28:20.013 --> 00:28:22.571 And I will say the last thing, I know I'm, I'm giving long answers, 00:28:22.836 --> 00:28:26.580 but Todd, a lot of people push back on me because FUD works 00:28:27.486 --> 00:28:27.966 Read, ja 00:28:29.274 --> 00:28:34.429 Um, to which I say, "Yeah, do you know what the number one best 00:28:34.508 --> 00:28:36.416 possible tactic is to close a deal? 00:28:36.613 --> 00:28:39.610 Bar none, if it's, if the only metric is get the deal closed. 00:28:40.843 --> 00:28:41.573 It's lying. 00:28:43.005 --> 00:28:43.888 Works like a charm. 00:28:44.574 --> 00:28:44.734 Ja. 00:28:45.130 --> 00:28:45.644 Every time. 00:28:45.644 --> 00:28:49.412 Just tell them whatever they need to hear, hide the real truth in the 00:28:49.414 --> 00:28:52.459 fine print, and get them to sign it, and then you say, 'Not my problem. 00:28:52.459 --> 00:28:55.856 You should have read it.' That's the best closing tactic there is. 00:28:56.565 --> 00:28:57.785 Does that mean we should use it?" 00:28:59.746 --> 00:29:02.956 Well, especially in our industry because like I always, I always say like 00:29:02.970 --> 00:29:07.108 we're, MSP sales is difficult because you're essentially selling trust, 00:29:07.498 --> 00:29:07.508 Mhm. 00:29:08.180 --> 00:29:12.825 So if you sell trust by lying to people, that's, that's not gonna work, 00:29:13.011 --> 00:29:13.844 That's what I'm saying. 00:29:13.997 --> 00:29:17.195 And so like, yeah, okay, that would get deals done. 00:29:18.736 --> 00:29:21.350 But I don't wanna… That's not how I'm, that's not how I live my life. 00:29:21.355 --> 00:29:23.338 That's not how I do it, uh, period. 00:29:23.350 --> 00:29:27.995 I'm going to rise above my animalistic desire to get to coerce 00:29:28.004 --> 00:29:31.111 someone into giving me what I want, and I'm going to be a freaking 00:29:31.125 --> 00:29:32.783 reasonable, trustworthy per- partner. 00:29:32.964 --> 00:29:35.893 And the truth is that long-term, you're gonna have the relationships. 00:29:35.907 --> 00:29:37.966 You know, Todd, you've been in this channel a long time. 00:29:38.349 --> 00:29:43.048 There's a few… If I, if I mention a few characteristics of some MSP vendors, 00:29:43.405 --> 00:29:49.044 MSP vendors who burn a lot of MSPs, who have been through the market a lot, and 00:29:49.047 --> 00:29:51.100 who everybody… You know the names. 00:29:51.639 --> 00:29:52.788 You can see their faces. 00:29:52.801 --> 00:29:54.167 You know who I'm talking about. 00:29:55.097 --> 00:30:01.205 Like, yeah, they've made a ton of money by being people that are not admirable. 00:30:01.628 --> 00:30:04.195 And so, okay, are they successful? 00:30:04.283 --> 00:30:06.240 Not by my definition of success. 00:30:06.624 --> 00:30:09.693 I would never want to look to emulate that person 00:30:11.700 --> 00:30:12.252 You know what I mean? 00:30:12.308 --> 00:30:15.616 And now a lot of those people, uh, there is eventually a reckoning. 00:30:16.326 --> 00:30:20.391 You can only sort of be a con man for so long before people catch on. 00:30:21.101 --> 00:30:24.944 And that's how when, when you're coming in trying to undercut a 00:30:24.946 --> 00:30:29.646 trust-driven relationship using fear with a stranger, you come across as 00:30:29.647 --> 00:30:34.418 a con man, rightly so, and your trust is permanently gone with that person 00:30:36.734 --> 00:30:41.486 So the, the, like the building of a salesperson, right? 00:30:41.509 --> 00:30:46.642 Like, uh, how much of this, uh, is innate skill versus something that 00:30:46.642 --> 00:30:48.208 you learn and can build, right? 00:30:48.225 --> 00:30:51.171 Like I, I, think you come at this as from a different angle. 00:30:51.171 --> 00:30:55.468 I think you have the t- the stereotypical entrepreneurial sales, 00:30:55.569 --> 00:30:58.771 uh, um, story of selling kids to… 00:30:58.858 --> 00:31:00.691 Uh, selling candy to the kids in the school, 00:31:01.013 --> 00:31:01.418 Ja 00:31:01.561 --> 00:31:03.518 you're, you're the typical lemonade stand kid. 00:31:03.934 --> 00:31:04.218 Ja 00:31:04.643 --> 00:31:07.794 do you think that that had a bearing on your success? 00:31:07.851 --> 00:31:11.101 And I think you… I've heard you speak of some examples where you took 00:31:11.102 --> 00:31:14.000 someone who had no skill set at all and 00:31:14.149 --> 00:31:14.310 Hm. 00:31:14.575 --> 00:31:15.739 incredibly successful. 00:31:15.961 --> 00:31:16.280 How much 00:31:16.310 --> 00:31:16.430 Ja. 00:31:16.449 --> 00:31:21.319 attribute that to the things that they learned versus the systems that you use? 00:31:21.723 --> 00:31:23.571 Yeah, really good question, Todd. 00:31:23.634 --> 00:31:26.628 Um, I mean, undeniably it's helped me, that it's in my temperament to 00:31:26.629 --> 00:31:31.992 be… I think that would be, that'd be, uh, total BS to be like, "No, it's 00:31:32.001 --> 00:31:34.366 all, I get all the, all the credit and this was all hard work." Like, 00:31:34.379 --> 00:31:41.341 yeah, I'm a, a, a charming, outgoing, extrovert, high energy, high drive guy. 00:31:42.247 --> 00:31:42.918 You know what I mean? 00:31:43.209 --> 00:31:46.629 And all of those things are to my benefit and I can't pretend they aren't. 00:31:47.481 --> 00:31:53.466 Also, um, there's a lot of really charming high drive p- losers who 00:31:53.468 --> 00:31:54.680 never achieve anything, you know? 00:31:55.102 --> 00:31:58.823 So it's not like I was just… Like, I also had to pick up the phone all those 00:31:58.825 --> 00:32:02.834 times in a row to, to find those, to start those conversations to close those deals. 00:32:02.834 --> 00:32:09.667 So, um, the, I think, us- you're, you're gonna have a l- a ceiling if 00:32:09.667 --> 00:32:14.531 you're like a talent… This comes up in acting a lot too actually. 00:32:14.646 --> 00:32:19.629 Um, a lot of really famous actors were not natural actors. 00:32:20.808 --> 00:32:27.010 They had to work super, super, super hard for a long time at it, like decades 00:32:27.423 --> 00:32:28.957 before anybody gave a crap about them. 00:32:28.965 --> 00:32:32.084 Mark Ruffalo didn't get his first break until his late 30s. 00:32:32.084 --> 00:32:33.754 He had been an actor for like 15 years. 00:32:33.908 --> 00:32:37.328 Nobody cared about Mark Ruffalo 'cause he was not natural at it. 00:32:38.377 --> 00:32:41.646 And then there's the Margot Robbies who book their first audition for a 00:32:41.785 --> 00:32:44.435 Australian soap opera and then come to New York and book their first 00:32:44.435 --> 00:32:47.149 movie audition for Wolf of Wall Street because she's Margot Robbie. 00:32:47.189 --> 00:32:52.840 And yeah, she's gonna be successful as an entertainer because she's Margot Robbie. 00:32:53.093 --> 00:32:53.613 Okay? 00:32:53.982 --> 00:32:59.122 Um, but so many of the top performers actually had to overcome obstacles 00:32:59.595 --> 00:33:01.008 in order to achieve their results. 00:33:01.010 --> 00:33:05.172 So I don't think it's necessarily about… It's, it's more about 00:33:05.172 --> 00:33:08.068 your grit than your innate talent. 00:33:08.136 --> 00:33:13.102 And maybe grit is innate, so in that way maybe, maybe this is a backwards answer. 00:33:13.995 --> 00:33:17.267 But it's more like how many times in a row are you willing to do 00:33:17.267 --> 00:33:20.848 this is going to determine if you can be successful at sales. 00:33:21.288 --> 00:33:25.569 And if it's less natural for you than me, then sure, you might have 00:33:25.575 --> 00:33:29.369 to do 10,000 times to my 7,500. 00:33:30.782 --> 00:33:34.156 So the question is are you going to do it 10,000 times or are you 00:33:34.156 --> 00:33:35.761 only going to do it 1,000 times? 00:33:35.783 --> 00:33:40.211 That's the bigger determiner versus do you need 7,500 or 10,000 00:33:41.037 --> 00:33:41.218 Yeah. 00:33:41.362 --> 00:33:41.671 Okay. 00:33:42.490 --> 00:33:46.155 Uh, I guess related as well, like I'm an ops person through and through, and 00:33:46.155 --> 00:33:51.323 I tend to always view o- like, I never viewed myself as very good at sales. 00:33:51.413 --> 00:33:55.782 Um, when I, I was good at warm sales, so if I was brought into like a warm 00:33:55.783 --> 00:33:59.140 prospect that was second meeting, I would do very well, and that, 00:33:59.151 --> 00:34:00.391 that worked pretty well for me. 00:34:00.743 --> 00:34:05.166 Um, m- my lens for sales is very much about the systems approach 00:34:05.166 --> 00:34:09.117 to it of do these things and you will produce good outcomes, right? 00:34:09.157 --> 00:34:16.151 Like, yes, there are, um, some sort of emotional sleight of hand, some engagement 00:34:16.158 --> 00:34:20.625 techniques, some, you know, some prospecting, uh, tricks that you can do. 00:34:20.938 --> 00:34:23.395 Like, those are some of the things that you can pick up, and the way, the way that 00:34:23.395 --> 00:34:27.241 you act and the way that you do things I think are, are a big component of this. 00:34:27.242 --> 00:34:30.315 But my favorite expression that I use about sales to sort of 00:34:30.315 --> 00:34:34.020 the RevOps side of things is activity precedes results, right? 00:34:34.071 --> 00:34:37.481 And I'm very curious if people are not achieving the results, I wanna 00:34:37.481 --> 00:34:41.539 see your activity because, you know, you need to get those reps in in order 00:34:41.539 --> 00:34:43.742 to achieve something out of this. 00:34:44.081 --> 00:34:48.059 So how much do you put weight in the idea that there are 00:34:48.060 --> 00:34:49.709 systems that are required, right? 00:34:49.709 --> 00:34:53.126 Like I've heard you talk a bit about, you know, if you're a professional, you should 00:34:53.127 --> 00:34:54.988 be using a CRM, those sorts of things. 00:34:55.243 --> 00:34:58.293 I don't find that those things come naturally to a lot of people 00:34:58.293 --> 00:34:59.831 that I see in the sales industry. 00:35:00.105 --> 00:35:04.701 And how much should we sort of push people towards that, of the mechanics 00:35:04.794 --> 00:35:08.988 of sales is just as important around the techniques and sort of 00:35:08.992 --> 00:35:10.816 the, the personal influence part? 00:35:11.413 --> 00:35:11.704 Yeah. 00:35:11.745 --> 00:35:13.015 Uh, that's every- that's all of it. 00:35:13.019 --> 00:35:15.035 It's, it's mechanics is the right word. 00:35:15.086 --> 00:35:20.773 Like, sales is a series of processes and SOPs, and y- you're gonna get 00:35:20.773 --> 00:35:24.703 leverage via tools, just like it's exactly like on the operations side. 00:35:25.359 --> 00:35:26.935 Sales is operations. 00:35:27.164 --> 00:35:32.148 It's just hard- way, way more ambiguous, and there's a lot more waiting. 00:35:32.214 --> 00:35:34.997 But then once you have a data set, then you can start 00:35:34.999 --> 00:35:36.635 forecasting much more accurately. 00:35:37.147 --> 00:35:37.750 Do you know what I'm saying? 00:35:37.763 --> 00:35:40.497 When you have data intelligence based off of a data set, you know 00:35:40.746 --> 00:35:45.206 500 cold calls gets me a client, then it's no longer ambiguous. 00:35:45.241 --> 00:35:46.184 Pick up the phone more. 00:35:46.841 --> 00:35:47.630 That's the answer. 00:35:47.951 --> 00:35:51.976 So the thing is that because it's unnatural for MS- for technical founders, 00:35:51.976 --> 00:35:55.146 it sounds like that's really the q- the lens you're asking these questions 00:35:55.147 --> 00:35:56.493 through is like a technical founder. 00:35:57.273 --> 00:36:01.627 It's un- it's unnatural, so you just like want to f- you want another answer. 00:36:02.195 --> 00:36:05.986 You keep shaking the eight ball waiting for a different answer, going to IT Nation 00:36:05.995 --> 00:36:07.498 again waiting for a different answer. 00:36:07.715 --> 00:36:08.830 The answer's never gonna change. 00:36:09.003 --> 00:36:14.385 It's the simple and hard repetitive tasks that will get you new clients, period. 00:36:15.222 --> 00:36:19.905 Make more … I say in my c- in my coaching community when people are 00:36:19.905 --> 00:36:22.497 like, "Eh, I tried that, doesn't work," and I say, "You're not allowed 00:36:22.497 --> 00:36:25.595 to tell me something doesn't work until you've tried it 1,000 times." 00:36:26.054 --> 00:36:26.194 Ja, 00:36:26.575 --> 00:36:27.219 That's my number. 00:36:27.731 --> 00:36:30.513 'Cause how many tries did it take Edison to make a light bulb? 00:36:30.537 --> 00:36:31.814 Over 900 tries, right? 00:36:33.300 --> 00:36:36.149 And he was like, "I found 900 ways to not make a light bulb," or 700. 00:36:36.162 --> 00:36:37.149 W- it was a high number. 00:36:38.374 --> 00:36:42.735 Um, so okay, that's like my, that's my metric. 00:36:43.021 --> 00:36:46.610 If you have tried it 1,000 times, you can tell me it doesn't work. 00:36:46.665 --> 00:36:51.514 If you tried it four times, you can go quit freaking whining and do the job 00:36:53.649 --> 00:36:54.446 You see what I'm saying? 00:36:55.030 --> 00:36:58.916 no, I, I totally agree, and this is what I, I find is a, a bit problematic and 00:36:58.918 --> 00:37:01.957 why I'm sort of asking these questions through the technical founder lens is 00:37:02.011 --> 00:37:05.744 I think this is the group that needs to hear a lot of this the most, right? 00:37:05.744 --> 00:37:08.612 Because they're somewhat introverted. 00:37:08.839 --> 00:37:11.906 They're a bit pessimistic about these ideas of like, "Oh, that's crap. 00:37:11.906 --> 00:37:15.710 It doesn't work." Like, "I, I would not take calls from, from anyone. 00:37:15.726 --> 00:37:17.563 All these vendors are bothering me," right? 00:37:17.565 --> 00:37:20.912 So they tend to apply their psychology to everyone else that they're 00:37:20.913 --> 00:37:22.364 potentially trying to prospect to. 00:37:22.803 --> 00:37:27.618 Uh, and, you know, uh, they always end up wanting to hide behind a keyboard of 00:37:27.619 --> 00:37:31.983 like, "Well, can't I just put together a really good SEO campaign or an AdWords 00:37:31.984 --> 00:37:35.697 campaign, and then, uh, the floodgates will open, and I will have all of the 00:37:35.707 --> 00:37:40.619 inbound that I need?" And like, sure, like, that's not necessarily a terrible 00:37:40.620 --> 00:37:44.185 strategy, but I don't think it's very reliable, and it's very expensive. 00:37:44.515 --> 00:37:48.222 Uh, versus, like you say, of just like make 100 calls. 00:37:48.443 --> 00:37:52.037 That was honestly one of the best pieces of advi- of advice I got when I was 00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:53.804 first starting my consulting company. 00:37:54.117 --> 00:37:59.383 A friend of mine, a mentor of mine said, "Todd, it's legs and lungs. Move around 00:37:59.383 --> 00:38:03.162 as much as you can and talk to as many people as you can." And I was like, "Huh, 00:38:03.451 --> 00:38:06.976 that seems deceivingly simple. I guess I'll give it a try." And lo and behold, 00:38:07.083 --> 00:38:09.812 like, there was two things that I think were very, very valuable out of that. 00:38:09.826 --> 00:38:14.908 One, it helped me to refine what I was trying to say o- over and over and over 00:38:14.909 --> 00:38:18.570 again until, like, I felt better and more comfortable pitching what I was doing. 00:38:18.954 --> 00:38:22.233 And then I also realized the second piece was I was not pitching 00:38:22.233 --> 00:38:23.480 to everyone that I talked to. 00:38:23.583 --> 00:38:27.731 I was just looking for feedback, inputs, and additional people to talk to, right? 00:38:27.786 --> 00:38:27.796 Ja 00:38:27.862 --> 00:38:30.422 eventually they're like, "Oh, that sounds interesting. You should talk 00:38:30.422 --> 00:38:32.122 to my friend so and so." And then 00:38:32.181 --> 00:38:32.476 Ja 00:38:32.671 --> 00:38:34.895 not that I'm pitching this person for the product. 00:38:35.190 --> 00:38:37.857 And I think that that's a really powerful strategy for people to just 00:38:37.867 --> 00:38:41.212 get up, move around, and start talking to as many people as you can about 00:38:41.214 --> 00:38:43.041 what you're trying to provide, right? 00:38:43.413 --> 00:38:43.714 Yeah. 00:38:44.099 --> 00:38:45.581 There's a reason everybody knows who you are, Todd. 00:38:45.619 --> 00:38:48.139 And by the way, this is our first conversation, isn't it? 00:38:48.774 --> 00:38:49.061 Ja 00:38:49.514 --> 00:38:53.013 But we both knew who we each other were for years. 00:38:53.334 --> 00:38:53.833 Yeah, yeah 00:38:54.182 --> 00:38:56.872 And there's a reason people know who you are, because of the legs and lungs. 00:38:56.879 --> 00:38:57.682 Like, I love that. 00:38:57.780 --> 00:39:04.006 Um, but let me say it this way, like, sometimes people hear me and they get 00:39:04.007 --> 00:39:07.612 discouraged, especially because I can, espec- in contexts like these, I can 00:39:07.613 --> 00:39:09.657 be very direct on, like, an interview. 00:39:10.741 --> 00:39:16.339 Um, people take it personal when if, if f- they were to hear something like, 00:39:16.352 --> 00:39:21.400 "You aren't good enough at this skill today." This is not a personal attack. 00:39:22.167 --> 00:39:23.868 This is a benchmark. 00:39:24.969 --> 00:39:29.273 If you, you're comparing somebody's cybersecurity posture against NIST 00:39:29.701 --> 00:39:34.393 and they're not compliant, it's not an attack on their business. 00:39:34.536 --> 00:39:38.483 This is a data point, and you're gonna use that data point to create an 00:39:38.494 --> 00:39:41.991 action plan to close the delta, right? 00:39:42.180 --> 00:39:47.668 That's, that's all technical people do all day: collect data, identify 00:39:47.668 --> 00:39:52.028 a goal, quantify the delta, make an action plan, and execute it. 00:39:52.731 --> 00:39:58.367 That's all I'm asking you to do, is to unemotionally observe the data 00:39:58.367 --> 00:40:00.084 points of your current skill set. 00:40:00.626 --> 00:40:04.481 But if you wanted to, you could think of even the soft skills and the social quirks 00:40:04.481 --> 00:40:05.833 and the stuff you were referring to. 00:40:06.245 --> 00:40:10.904 Dude, 90-plus percent of that you could write an SOP for how to make a friend. 00:40:11.864 --> 00:40:14.554 You could write an SOP for how to pick up a partner at a bar. 00:40:15.688 --> 00:40:18.543 I could do, we could do it, because it exists. 00:40:18.781 --> 00:40:20.979 Like, psychology is science. 00:40:21.261 --> 00:40:25.391 It's, it's not just art, and really all art is, is an intuitive 00:40:25.393 --> 00:40:27.435 understanding of an underlying science. 00:40:28.382 --> 00:40:28.816 So 00:40:28.855 --> 00:40:31.279 give you a really excellent example of this, Brian, right? 00:40:31.289 --> 00:40:34.353 Like, and this is, this is reflecting back, like something that I took away 00:40:34.354 --> 00:40:39.118 from you in, at, at your talk at ScaleCon, is, uh, yes, you're an introvert. 00:40:39.167 --> 00:40:40.644 You're not very good at networking. 00:40:40.869 --> 00:40:44.227 Here's a strategy to help you at one of these networking events when you're, 00:40:44.274 --> 00:40:47.491 you're, you're, you're stuck as a wallflower, and there are these little 00:40:47.492 --> 00:40:49.298 pods of people standing around talking. 00:40:49.601 --> 00:40:52.213 Walk up to one of them, just sort of slide in and be like, 00:40:52.682 --> 00:40:54.178 "Hey, what'd I miss?" Right? 00:40:54.503 --> 00:40:55.402 Like, "What's up?" Right? 00:40:55.451 --> 00:40:59.957 And it's such a simple and deflective way of just, like reducing the mental 00:40:59.958 --> 00:41:03.977 load of like, how do I show up and introduce myself and not stand there 00:41:04.030 --> 00:41:05.928 awkwardly for 15 minutes and then just 00:41:06.106 --> 00:41:06.326 Ja. 00:41:06.750 --> 00:41:07.067 right? 00:41:07.120 --> 00:41:10.293 Because to your point, people are actually very, very inviting. 00:41:10.294 --> 00:41:13.020 They're like, "Oh, hey, this is so-and-so. We were talking about this thing." And 00:41:13.020 --> 00:41:16.025 then all of a sudden you're in, you're involved in the group, and all of that 00:41:16.262 --> 00:41:20.043 sort of mental baggage of how difficult it will be to, to network with these 00:41:20.043 --> 00:41:21.977 people completely dissolves, right? 00:41:22.015 --> 00:41:24.655 I think that's a really effective strategy around like exactly what 00:41:24.656 --> 00:41:27.405 you're saying of like, there's these little things that you can do to 00:41:27.407 --> 00:41:29.340 make these things easier, but it's 00:41:29.461 --> 00:41:29.729 Ja 00:41:30.104 --> 00:41:32.655 and it's really not as difficult as we may think it is. 00:41:33.100 --> 00:41:34.821 No, it's not, and you can fake it. 00:41:35.720 --> 00:41:39.051 The amount of highly successful entrepreneurs that are really just 00:41:39.051 --> 00:41:45.850 sociopaths mimicking human behavior like, like, nobody's gonna convince 00:41:45.863 --> 00:41:47.913 me that Alex Hormozi is a normal dude. 00:41:48.647 --> 00:41:49.899 There's something wrong with him. 00:41:49.899 --> 00:41:52.810 That's why he's worth $200 million and he's not 40, you know? 00:41:53.140 --> 00:41:56.479 Like, but he just breaks things down into checklists. 00:41:57.082 --> 00:41:58.814 So, like, let me give you one right now. 00:41:58.814 --> 00:41:59.948 You mentioned QBRs. 00:42:00.509 --> 00:42:04.533 I'm gonna give you three Cs: compliment, callback, curiosity. 00:42:05.560 --> 00:42:06.698 Do those three things. 00:42:06.701 --> 00:42:08.339 So first of all, compliment people. 00:42:08.397 --> 00:42:11.642 I don't know why people over… Th- they overcomplicate this. 00:42:12.490 --> 00:42:15.999 Give someone a genuine compliment, this is all the way back to Carnegie, 00:42:16.488 --> 00:42:19.435 and they will like you more, period. 00:42:19.462 --> 00:42:20.245 It's not hard. 00:42:20.263 --> 00:42:21.622 And it, it just has to be genuine. 00:42:22.151 --> 00:42:23.569 You can't be like, "Nice tooth. 00:42:23.607 --> 00:42:27.444 Okay, anyway, let's buy this cybersecurity package." It has to be 00:42:27.446 --> 00:42:31.812 like, "Hey, man, you're looking good." That could be s- that could be it. 00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:33.770 Then I mentioned curiosity. 00:42:33.863 --> 00:42:36.486 Curiosity's the most charismatic thing you can have. 00:42:37.198 --> 00:42:40.595 Be genuinely interested in the person you're talking to and they will like you. 00:42:41.232 --> 00:42:44.089 Meaning ask them a question, and if there's something in there that sparked 00:42:44.127 --> 00:42:49.524 another mental thought for you, follow that question and just follow the, the 00:42:49.533 --> 00:42:53.390 hair of curiosity through your brain, and they will feel seen and loved and 00:42:53.390 --> 00:42:54.961 liked, and they will like you back. 00:42:55.406 --> 00:42:56.616 And the last one was callback. 00:42:56.638 --> 00:42:57.057 If you… 00:42:57.540 --> 00:43:00.149 This is for the technical people on the call who you're going, like, 00:43:00.160 --> 00:43:02.794 building friends is exhausting, seeing friends is exhausting. 00:43:03.254 --> 00:43:09.111 Recall something from the last time you spoke and bring it up again. 00:43:10.979 --> 00:43:11.935 Something you discussed. 00:43:11.937 --> 00:43:15.513 Be like, "Hey, whatever happened with such and such?" Or, "Hey, reme-" Uh, 00:43:15.577 --> 00:43:17.701 even a joke that worked before, like… 00:43:17.814 --> 00:43:18.567 Or something they said. 00:43:18.567 --> 00:43:21.127 "Hey, I remember when you said that. It made me laugh." Call 00:43:21.138 --> 00:43:24.790 back one thing from a previous conversation and that is the recipe 00:43:25.077 --> 00:43:26.716 to building an ongoing relationship. 00:43:26.846 --> 00:43:29.988 If you do that in your QBRs, even in your sales meetings, call back 00:43:29.989 --> 00:43:33.790 something from your last sales conversation, you'll be more likable 00:43:35.591 --> 00:43:38.550 But all right, um, couple other ones before I let you run here. 00:43:38.624 --> 00:43:43.475 Um, the other piece that I don't know how much, I suppose you h- I mean, 00:43:43.475 --> 00:43:45.815 you have lots of opinions, so I'm sure you'll have an opinion on this. 00:43:45.820 --> 00:43:49.191 It's a bit outside the, the vein of sort of, uh, the typical sort of 00:43:49.191 --> 00:43:51.103 prospect lead develop type idea though. 00:43:51.103 --> 00:43:56.581 But one thing I see a lot of organizations struggle with is how do you appropriately 00:43:56.843 --> 00:43:59.402 hand off a new prospect for onboarding? 00:43:59.762 --> 00:44:04.898 Like you have the owner or a salesperson that is involved in this, uh, this, 00:44:04.910 --> 00:44:08.053 uh, relationship development with a new prospect, and then they hand 00:44:08.053 --> 00:44:11.324 them off to, you know, a project manager or a technical team lead, 00:44:11.573 --> 00:44:13.186 and they're like, "This is John. 00:44:13.198 --> 00:44:17.033 He's gonna run you through this process, and it's gonna be amazing." And then 00:44:17.034 --> 00:44:20.026 they kind of disappear and they're like, "Well, but wait, what happened to Brian? 00:44:20.029 --> 00:44:20.891 Like we were buddies. 00:44:20.899 --> 00:44:24.951 He, he sold me this whole thing and now I don't get to be involved with him?" So 00:44:24.951 --> 00:44:29.187 like what's the crossover that you think is sort of the best, uh, the best approach 00:44:29.188 --> 00:44:32.955 to this so it's not completely redundant where the salesperson is wasting all of 00:44:32.955 --> 00:44:35.023 their time, not wasting, but spending 00:44:35.053 --> 00:44:35.423 sure 00:44:35.502 --> 00:44:38.743 time with the onboarding process, but still having that crossover 00:44:38.743 --> 00:44:41.604 so the comfort- the client feels comfortable that they've made the 00:44:41.605 --> 00:44:43.150 right decision and there's continuity? 00:44:45.206 --> 00:44:46.346 Yeah, it's a really good question. 00:44:46.442 --> 00:44:51.232 Um, it's more about, I think it's more about the work you do on the back end 00:44:51.936 --> 00:44:55.625 because obviously, like, they assume the salesperson isn't gonna be their primary 00:44:55.625 --> 00:44:59.258 point of contact forever, especially when they know you're a salesperson. 00:44:59.894 --> 00:44:59.904 Mhm. 00:45:00.263 --> 00:45:04.217 Um, if you disguise the fact that you're a salesperson because you're 00:45:04.218 --> 00:45:06.644 ashamed of being a salesperson, then you might end up creating some 00:45:06.644 --> 00:45:09.804 confusion during onboarding 'cause it like, "Oh, I thought you were my… 00:45:10.144 --> 00:45:15.782 You said you were a customer success liaison, but I never talk to you again?" 00:45:16.261 --> 00:45:19.879 No, just be a salesperson, and then they'll, it, it will trigger them. 00:45:19.908 --> 00:45:23.764 It'll label appropriately in their mind so they have more right-sized expectations. 00:45:24.148 --> 00:45:27.249 But it, it, to me, it could be as simple as a internal meeting. 00:45:27.694 --> 00:45:30.802 It could even be a doc now, and it could, frankly, it could be an 00:45:30.811 --> 00:45:33.431 agent that just scrapes all the transcripts from the sales meeting. 00:45:34.017 --> 00:45:41.523 But the onboarding team needs to know who are these people, what do they do, why 00:45:41.524 --> 00:45:46.430 are they leaving their current solution, and what was their most recent solution? 00:45:47.679 --> 00:45:48.214 You know what I mean? 00:45:48.464 --> 00:45:49.332 so much in this. 00:45:49.371 --> 00:45:52.399 That's the, uh, uh, as you say that, I'm like, "Of course you 00:45:52.400 --> 00:45:53.534 need this information," but I 00:45:53.562 --> 00:45:53.866 Yeah 00:45:53.962 --> 00:45:55.679 this happens in most cases. 00:45:55.727 --> 00:45:56.302 It's wild 00:45:56.851 --> 00:46:02.239 Yeah, 'cause if, if they have a bad MSP now, like we, we want to 00:46:02.249 --> 00:46:05.891 start off on the right foot to be like, "And why are they bad? 00:46:06.675 --> 00:46:08.059 What don't you like about them? 00:46:08.399 --> 00:46:10.655 Let's position ourselves differently. 00:46:10.657 --> 00:46:12.397 Let's show them better." You know? 00:46:12.621 --> 00:46:16.649 Or if they have an IT guy and we need to be more of like a show of force, let's 00:46:16.649 --> 00:46:18.763 have three people on the call, you know? 00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:20.776 And we wanna show them that we have a deep bench. 00:46:21.644 --> 00:46:25.336 Uh, I think work backwards from the sales questions of what do you need, 00:46:25.343 --> 00:46:29.104 why do you need it, and why don't you have it, and have those pull through, 00:46:29.104 --> 00:46:31.813 the answers to those questions pull through into the onboarding phase. 00:46:31.904 --> 00:46:35.473 So we go, "Listen, Brian and I talked extensively about, uh, your conversations. 00:46:35.482 --> 00:46:36.909 I actually listened to some of your transcripts. 00:46:37.216 --> 00:46:39.615 I know that the main thing we wanted to resolve was this phone 00:46:39.617 --> 00:46:42.629 system issue you guys keep having, so that's the top of my list. 00:46:42.997 --> 00:46:44.843 Um, a- I am gonna get to that in just a minute. 00:46:44.843 --> 00:46:47.124 Let me set the stage for you guys a little bit and just walk you 00:46:47.125 --> 00:46:50.341 through what it's gonna be like now that with your new partnership." 00:46:51.317 --> 00:46:58.621 And proceed your onboarding process with a ten-second spiel demonstrating that 00:46:58.640 --> 00:47:03.015 the knowledge transfer was successful to the onboarding person, and the onboarding 00:47:03.015 --> 00:47:05.092 person understands the objectives. 00:47:05.678 --> 00:47:10.034 Then I think you won't need as much crossover because they will feel like… 00:47:10.066 --> 00:47:12.098 They'll feel the handoff was successful. 00:47:12.121 --> 00:47:15.577 But if they don't get any of that from their onboarding people, if they keep 00:47:15.587 --> 00:47:18.747 pulling back to your sales reps, it means your onboarding people aren't 00:47:18.794 --> 00:47:20.631 giving them a high degree of confidence 00:47:22.428 --> 00:47:22.616 Yeah. 00:47:22.979 --> 00:47:23.470 No, that's great. 00:47:23.503 --> 00:47:28.100 Again, like it's that, that continuity of not sort of the client having to 00:47:28.101 --> 00:47:32.289 repeat themselves and you're reflecting back like, "I, I actually understand 00:47:32.290 --> 00:47:35.872 why you're here and what you need." It just creates so much more confidence 00:47:35.878 --> 00:47:37.308 as you're kicking off that strategy. 00:47:37.348 --> 00:47:37.838 That's awesome. 00:47:38.509 --> 00:47:38.711 right. 00:47:39.830 --> 00:47:44.683 Brian, um, what is one thing a technical owner should start doing next week 00:47:44.685 --> 00:47:46.413 to improve their sales strategies? 00:47:46.413 --> 00:47:49.824 Recognizing like just saying, you know, start making some calls 00:47:49.830 --> 00:47:52.230 is maybe a bit too much to ask. 00:47:52.614 --> 00:47:57.653 Obviously, we'll link to your podcast and the group work that you do for, 00:47:57.671 --> 00:47:59.584 for coaching for sales development. 00:47:59.847 --> 00:48:00.930 Those would be good strategies. 00:48:00.934 --> 00:48:04.438 But is there some sort of low bar that people could take away as, 00:48:04.463 --> 00:48:07.277 as a really actionable strategy that they could start next week? 00:48:07.926 --> 00:48:08.696 Yeah, for sure. 00:48:08.763 --> 00:48:14.196 Um, go to your favorite client, ask them to talk to you for 15 minutes, and 00:48:14.198 --> 00:48:18.919 then run a informal customer discovery interview that basically says like, 00:48:19.086 --> 00:48:20.772 "What do you like about working with us? 00:48:21.049 --> 00:48:22.439 What don't you like about working with us? 00:48:22.805 --> 00:48:23.888 Why did you choose us? 00:48:24.504 --> 00:48:28.906 And if you were me and you want, and I, and you had to go find more 00:48:28.908 --> 00:48:30.446 people like you, what would you do?" 00:48:31.982 --> 00:48:34.912 And just straight up ask your best client how to get more best clients 00:48:36.964 --> 00:48:38.254 Basic market research, huh? 00:48:38.616 --> 00:48:38.970 Yeah. 00:48:39.058 --> 00:48:41.038 Uh, we call it a customer discovery interview. 00:48:41.763 --> 00:48:43.345 I had one today with a client. 00:48:43.397 --> 00:48:46.721 I love the guy, and the truth is, like, we basically accidentally 00:48:46.723 --> 00:48:48.210 secured a contract renewal with him. 00:48:48.210 --> 00:48:49.482 Was- wasn't even the objective. 00:48:49.513 --> 00:48:52.138 I was like, "What do you want us to be doing better at, and what are 00:48:52.138 --> 00:48:53.497 some of your wins so that I know?" 00:48:54.122 --> 00:48:57.345 But that market research, that's going to give you so much better context 00:48:57.353 --> 00:49:00.545 for, like, what's gonna work in the future, how do I get the right people 00:49:00.740 --> 00:49:03.083 putting the right bait on the hook to catch the right kind of fish. 00:49:03.093 --> 00:49:03.609 You know what I mean? 00:49:04.216 --> 00:49:07.792 Um, that's something you could do that doesn't require any new relationships. 00:49:07.816 --> 00:49:11.998 It just requires 20 minutes and, uh, a relationship that you 00:49:11.998 --> 00:49:14.384 probably already have a strong relationship with that person. 00:49:15.881 --> 00:49:16.480 That's what I would do 00:49:17.441 --> 00:49:17.597 Awesome. 00:49:18.305 --> 00:49:18.992 has been great, Brian. 00:49:19.067 --> 00:49:24.751 Uh, links to you, your LinkedIn and, uh, your podcast and your, uh, your program 00:49:24.751 --> 00:49:26.245 as well will be in the show notes. 00:49:26.272 --> 00:49:30.041 Any other last call-outs or calls to action for anyone listening? 00:49:30.359 --> 00:49:33.823 Uh, just that I wish I would have asked you more questions because 00:49:34.151 --> 00:49:36.709 I talked way more than you, I know, in this, uh, conversation. 00:49:36.710 --> 00:49:41.728 But, um, you-- I appreciate what you do, Todd, and actually you are very 00:49:41.730 --> 00:49:45.173 highly respected, if you don't mind my saying, uh, by a lot of the people 00:49:45.174 --> 00:49:49.518 in the channel, and I appreciate, uh, opportunities to have conversations 00:49:49.519 --> 00:49:50.700 with guys like you about this. 00:49:50.731 --> 00:49:52.779 But no, just, just keep your head up. 00:49:52.831 --> 00:49:56.465 My wall behind me says, "This is going to work," and I mean that. 00:49:56.474 --> 00:50:01.888 Just, uh, treat the unknown… treat the delta between where you are now 00:50:01.951 --> 00:50:06.066 and where you need to go as a project, and then break down each one of those 00:50:06.097 --> 00:50:11.373 confusing things into a, a project and make a scope of work for the project. 00:50:11.390 --> 00:50:14.183 And maybe the scope of work is get better people skills. 00:50:14.193 --> 00:50:16.741 Okay, fine, then break that into something manageable. 00:50:17.343 --> 00:50:18.263 And you, you can do it. 00:50:18.325 --> 00:50:21.649 You can close the gap, and you can become what you need to become to 00:50:21.649 --> 00:50:23.090 achieve what you want to achieve 00:50:24.486 --> 00:50:24.627 Awesome. 00:50:24.728 --> 00:50:25.327 Great advice. 00:50:25.755 --> 00:50:26.586 Thanks for being here, Brian 00:50:26.808 --> 00:50:27.182 Yeah. 00:50:27.270 --> 00:50:27.901 Thanks, man