1 00:00:06,500 --> 00:00:10,700 Welcome to Oxford Plus, the podcast series that takes you deep into the myths and 2 00:00:10,700 --> 00:00:13,140 truths of the Oxford investing landscape. 3 00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:16,269 I'm your host, Susannah de Jager, and I've spent over 15 4 00:00:16,269 --> 00:00:17,889 years in UK asset management. 5 00:00:18,689 --> 00:00:20,460 My guest today is Dave Norwood. 6 00:00:20,730 --> 00:00:24,610 Dave graduated from Keeble College, Oxford, with a degree in modern history 7 00:00:24,950 --> 00:00:26,440 and went into investment banking. 8 00:00:26,860 --> 00:00:30,730 He has founded and been a director of numerous UK technology companies 9 00:00:30,750 --> 00:00:35,939 including Oxford Nanopore, Proxy Imogen, Synergen, 4D Pharma, Index 10 00:00:36,049 --> 00:00:38,310 IT, Evolution Group and Aura Capital. 11 00:00:38,629 --> 00:00:42,690 Dave is also the founder of IP Group PLC and Oxford Science Innovation, 12 00:00:42,940 --> 00:00:46,530 now Oxford Science Enterprises, the largest university venture 13 00:00:46,530 --> 00:00:50,575 fund globally, which has brought in over 1.5 billion of investment into 14 00:00:50,575 --> 00:00:53,275 Oxford since its inception in 2015. 15 00:00:53,935 --> 00:00:57,355 Dave is also a grandmaster in chess and has represented both England 16 00:00:57,355 --> 00:00:59,095 and Andorra internationally. 17 00:00:59,635 --> 00:01:02,724 Without Dave, much of the investment landscape of Oxford would not look 18 00:01:02,724 --> 00:01:05,695 how it does today, and so I'm looking forward to hearing his thoughts 19 00:01:05,695 --> 00:01:09,655 and predictions as to what will and should change over the next 10 years. 20 00:01:09,955 --> 00:01:12,235 Dave, thank you so much for joining today. 21 00:01:12,470 --> 00:01:13,390 You're very welcome. 22 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:14,370 It's nice to be here. 23 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:15,210 Wonderful. 24 00:01:15,890 --> 00:01:19,700 So, going back a few years now, you set up OSI. 25 00:01:20,590 --> 00:01:24,760 I'd love to know what it was you identified that precipitated 26 00:01:24,770 --> 00:01:29,720 the need to set up OSI, Oxford Science Innovation, as it then was. 27 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,250 That's a good question, sadly we'll have to go back a few more 28 00:01:33,250 --> 00:01:34,630 years, I'm actually quite old. 29 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,899 So probably better we start further back because it then 30 00:01:37,909 --> 00:01:39,779 will hopefully make more sense. 31 00:01:40,409 --> 00:01:45,699 It really goes back to when I arrived at Oxford a long time ago, 1988, and 32 00:01:46,140 --> 00:01:50,050 I read history, everyone assumes I read chemistry but I read history, 33 00:01:50,050 --> 00:01:51,970 chemistry was too difficult for me. 34 00:01:51,970 --> 00:01:53,475 I was surprised when I saw that. 35 00:01:53,699 --> 00:01:55,410 I'll be honest, I'm one of those people. 36 00:01:55,410 --> 00:01:55,669 Yeah. 37 00:01:56,054 --> 00:01:59,145 I did sort of make friends with quite a few sort of scientists, 38 00:02:00,015 --> 00:02:03,005 particularly when I also have a background in chess and most chess 39 00:02:03,005 --> 00:02:05,214 players are good at maths or science. 40 00:02:05,515 --> 00:02:10,134 So again, they don't tend to be historians and I kind of kept in touch with these 41 00:02:10,134 --> 00:02:13,915 people after I'd left Oxford, and I sort of stumbled into the world of finance, 42 00:02:13,925 --> 00:02:15,295 so I really didn't know what I was doing. 43 00:02:15,295 --> 00:02:17,315 I didn't really want to do it, if I'm honest. 44 00:02:17,855 --> 00:02:20,885 But what interested me was going back to Oxford, seeing my friends who were 45 00:02:20,905 --> 00:02:24,475 going to do these research projects in various areas, and more and more, you 46 00:02:24,475 --> 00:02:27,875 know, we'd be in the pub and I'd be like, so what are you planning to do? 47 00:02:27,875 --> 00:02:31,025 Oh, I want to build this machine, or I've got this idea for a computer game, or... 48 00:02:31,345 --> 00:02:34,204 and I just love to hear their stories and then they'd be like, 49 00:02:34,204 --> 00:02:37,915 well, if only we could find £50,000, we could build a prototype and 50 00:02:38,625 --> 00:02:39,954 so I'm like, well, you know what? 51 00:02:40,405 --> 00:02:41,904 And I've always been a reasonable salesman. 52 00:02:41,905 --> 00:02:42,524 So I sort of went. 53 00:02:42,870 --> 00:02:47,490 and got some of the rich people I knew to just, in finance to put some money 54 00:02:47,490 --> 00:02:49,040 into these early ideas in Oxford. 55 00:02:49,060 --> 00:02:53,119 So it was a complete accident and they didn't even go particularly well. 56 00:02:53,130 --> 00:02:56,739 But you know, I remember one guy introducing me to his tutor. 57 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:58,990 He said, my tutor can't believe you've raised this money. 58 00:02:58,990 --> 00:03:00,650 He wants to, he really wants to meet you. 59 00:03:01,099 --> 00:03:04,850 So I met him and he was a sort of very eminent professor and then he started 60 00:03:04,850 --> 00:03:08,695 telling me more and more stories and about ideas in Oxford that there were 61 00:03:08,745 --> 00:03:13,365 and he invited me to a dinner and it was actually a seminal moment in my life. 62 00:03:13,365 --> 00:03:19,735 I got invited to a dinner and I'm going back now to probably about 1997 and it's a 63 00:03:19,735 --> 00:03:24,415 very odd story actually because a few days before I actually got bitten by a snake. 64 00:03:25,815 --> 00:03:27,224 That is not what I expected you to say. 65 00:03:27,264 --> 00:03:27,925 Yeah, I know, that was it. 66 00:03:27,995 --> 00:03:29,044 What kind of snake? 67 00:03:29,214 --> 00:03:34,394 Yeah, it was an adder, I'd been for lunch in the Ashdown forest with a couple of 68 00:03:34,394 --> 00:03:36,204 friends and we'd gone for a walk after. 69 00:03:36,385 --> 00:03:37,884 That's spectacularly unlucky. 70 00:03:37,884 --> 00:03:40,694 Well, it wasn't unlucky because I saw this adder and I was fascinated by 71 00:03:40,694 --> 00:03:43,515 snakes, so I gently trod on its tail. 72 00:03:44,835 --> 00:03:49,745 Yeah, looking back it was a silly thing to do, but I gently trod on its tail 73 00:03:49,815 --> 00:03:51,615 and then started stroking its neck. 74 00:03:51,745 --> 00:03:52,635 No you didn't! 75 00:03:52,635 --> 00:03:56,705 I did, and then it turned around and bit me, and it was pretty horrific because 76 00:03:56,715 --> 00:04:00,205 the blood sort of spurted out, but I thought it was a grass snake anyway, 77 00:04:00,214 --> 00:04:03,715 so I wasn't particularly worried, it was only when my arm started to throb. 78 00:04:04,849 --> 00:04:07,990 Anyway, we went back to the hotel where we'd had the lunch and I told 79 00:04:07,990 --> 00:04:11,490 them I'd been bitten why one of the snakes in their garden and the guy 80 00:04:11,490 --> 00:04:14,829 went paler than me and they rang for an ambulance and rushed me to hospital. 81 00:04:14,849 --> 00:04:17,130 I literally nearly died because I had a terrible reaction, 82 00:04:17,850 --> 00:04:19,289 spent almost a week in hospital. 83 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,640 So I got out of hospital and I had my arm in a sling. 84 00:04:23,650 --> 00:04:28,450 So this professor had actually invited me to a High Table lunch at Queen's 85 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:34,690 and I was ringing him to say I can't go, I've been bitten by a snake and 86 00:04:34,690 --> 00:04:37,850 I'm still not feeling very well, and I rung him and he was like, Oh, I'm so 87 00:04:37,850 --> 00:04:40,830 pleased you rang me, you're going to meet this professor who's brilliant, 88 00:04:41,150 --> 00:04:45,820 he's an amazing inventor, he'd love to meet you and I didn't have the heart 89 00:04:45,830 --> 00:04:46,850 to say, well, actually I'm not coming. 90 00:04:46,850 --> 00:04:49,559 So I thought well sod it, I'll just go, right, how bad can it be? 91 00:04:49,559 --> 00:04:53,009 As usual, like really enjoying myself, we had a lovely meal at High Table, 92 00:04:53,029 --> 00:04:57,100 lots of nice wine and then port and anyway, I was with my friend who's 93 00:04:57,130 --> 00:05:01,275 Professor Pete Dobson, who actually built Begbroke really, was his project. 94 00:05:01,325 --> 00:05:04,825 But he introduced me to this lovely old guy called Professor 95 00:05:04,825 --> 00:05:08,304 Alan Hill, who obviously noticed that my arm was in a sling. 96 00:05:08,325 --> 00:05:12,825 So I told him the story of the snake and I thought, what's odd is I thought I'd have 97 00:05:12,834 --> 00:05:15,075 built some kind of immunity to being... 98 00:05:15,124 --> 00:05:19,195 I've been bitten by like lots of things like mosquitoes and stuff in my life and 99 00:05:19,195 --> 00:05:20,765 he goes, no, it's the opposite, you know? 100 00:05:20,895 --> 00:05:25,715 And so I learned, Oh, you must be a chemist and you know, so he then started 101 00:05:25,795 --> 00:05:30,945 telling me his story and his story was unbelievably romantic and truly 102 00:05:30,945 --> 00:05:35,275 inspirational and he told me about this idea he'd had years and years ago, that 103 00:05:35,545 --> 00:05:39,614 a way to sort of measure blood sugar levels and a bit of me being nice, I 104 00:05:39,615 --> 00:05:41,895 said so what's that useful for you know? 105 00:05:42,594 --> 00:05:46,134 And he goes, well it's funny you say that, at first that was my 106 00:05:46,135 --> 00:05:47,904 thought, what is it useful for? 107 00:05:47,905 --> 00:05:51,395 He said well it became useful when we realised that with a sort of tiny 108 00:05:51,395 --> 00:05:54,805 prick of someone's finger, you know, you take a tiny amount of blood and 109 00:05:54,815 --> 00:05:57,205 you can see what the glucose level is. 110 00:05:57,835 --> 00:06:02,094 Which actually became a product which has revolutionised diabetes. 111 00:06:02,105 --> 00:06:06,914 So if you know any diabetics, their lives have been transformed by the ability to 112 00:06:06,914 --> 00:06:11,995 self test and it all came from Professor Alan Hill's idea all those years ago 113 00:06:12,015 --> 00:06:14,874 and I remember hearing about it and I'm like, oh, that sounds interesting. 114 00:06:15,505 --> 00:06:17,265 Why don't we create a company out of it? 115 00:06:17,455 --> 00:06:20,674 And he said, well actually, he's a very modest bloke, he said, well I would 116 00:06:20,674 --> 00:06:23,445 have loved to have done that, but we did create a company and we just sold 117 00:06:23,465 --> 00:06:28,155 it for $890 million and I was like, wow, and he said, well it's interesting 118 00:06:28,155 --> 00:06:32,375 though, like, you know, no one in the UK was particularly interested in it. 119 00:06:32,375 --> 00:06:37,564 It was as usual, a US company and you know, I'm like yeah, and I 120 00:06:37,564 --> 00:06:42,935 said well there's probably a lot of ideas like that in Oxford and he 121 00:06:42,935 --> 00:06:44,184 goes, you just wouldn't believe it. 122 00:06:44,195 --> 00:06:47,744 There were so many amazing ideas that could change the world, change 123 00:06:47,744 --> 00:06:49,405 people's lives and even make money. 124 00:06:49,785 --> 00:06:52,235 But actually he wasn't driven by the money, he was driven by the fact 125 00:06:52,305 --> 00:06:56,735 that literally, you know, hundreds of millions of people now around the world 126 00:06:56,765 --> 00:06:59,095 have had their lives improved by... 127 00:06:59,274 --> 00:07:02,915 and that in some ways was the beginning of sort of self diagnostics, you know, 128 00:07:03,035 --> 00:07:04,894 what we all got used to during COVID. 129 00:07:05,534 --> 00:07:09,425 A lot of it can be traced back to Alan Hill and the chemistry department. 130 00:07:10,684 --> 00:07:14,794 So, at least it gives you context as to why I was really interested and I 131 00:07:14,794 --> 00:07:20,094 carried on doing, helping sort of spin outs from Oxford on an ad hoc basis, 132 00:07:20,464 --> 00:07:24,224 until I found out that they were trying to build a new chemistry department. 133 00:07:25,135 --> 00:07:27,544 So this is all at the end of the 90s and they'd raised a lot 134 00:07:27,544 --> 00:07:30,085 of money from charities, the Wellcome Trust, the government. 135 00:07:31,034 --> 00:07:33,615 But they were trying to build this brand new, they wanted to build like the most 136 00:07:33,625 --> 00:07:35,164 modern chemistry department in the world. 137 00:07:36,070 --> 00:07:38,970 Oxford Chemistry is ranked top in the world and they thought we need a 138 00:07:38,970 --> 00:07:40,820 building that just looks fantastic. 139 00:07:40,860 --> 00:07:42,830 But they were £20 million short. 140 00:07:43,550 --> 00:07:46,059 So they came to me and said Dave, you're good at raising money. 141 00:07:46,059 --> 00:07:48,799 We've seen you raise money for these little companies. 142 00:07:49,539 --> 00:07:52,969 Why don't you raise us the 20 million pounds to help us 143 00:07:52,969 --> 00:07:54,030 do the chemistry building? 144 00:07:54,210 --> 00:07:59,550 So this is 1999 and I said, well what about, what do I get in return? 145 00:07:59,550 --> 00:08:03,239 And they looked at me as if like, well, you don't know what you thought of that. 146 00:08:03,260 --> 00:08:04,380 I said, well, here's an idea. 147 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:09,194 Why don't, in return for these £20 million, we would like to have a stake 148 00:08:09,194 --> 00:08:12,734 in all the ideas that come out of that department forever and they're like, 149 00:08:12,775 --> 00:08:14,304 well, forever's a very long time. 150 00:08:14,955 --> 00:08:15,564 That's not going to work. 151 00:08:16,405 --> 00:08:22,304 So we hammered out a long, interesting deal, which was basically, we would 152 00:08:22,305 --> 00:08:27,325 share 50 50 with the university, the stakes in the ideas that came out for 153 00:08:27,325 --> 00:08:31,675 the next 15 years and we finally did the deal in 2000, to go and raise £20 154 00:08:31,675 --> 00:08:36,325 million and it meant Oxford were happy because they got to build the state of 155 00:08:36,375 --> 00:08:40,495 the art chemistry department which is still there on South Parkes Road and we 156 00:08:40,495 --> 00:08:45,225 then had 15 years to try and turn some of the ideas into something that works and 157 00:08:45,234 --> 00:08:49,820 hopefully recoup that 20 million pounds and that was the beginning of IP group. 158 00:08:49,820 --> 00:08:53,670 That was how IP group started and it was a very unusual deal. 159 00:08:53,670 --> 00:08:57,990 It's the first deal of its kind and over those 15 years, 160 00:08:58,160 --> 00:08:59,270 I've got to be honest, right? 161 00:08:59,270 --> 00:09:02,930 There was lots of times where I thought, my God, this is the most stupid deal. 162 00:09:02,940 --> 00:09:04,970 Why on earth have I done this? 163 00:09:05,489 --> 00:09:08,620 And I realised that if I just sort of sat there and waited for the ideas to 164 00:09:08,620 --> 00:09:12,220 come, they probably weren't going to come and I wasn't going to get my money back. 165 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,790 So I sort of moved back to Oxford and I literally spent every day, whether it 166 00:09:16,790 --> 00:09:21,285 was taking a scientist to the coffee shop or dragging them over to the pub to hear 167 00:09:21,285 --> 00:09:23,954 their ideas in the chemistry department because I thought we've really got to 168 00:09:23,954 --> 00:09:29,790 work hard to make that stuff see the light of day and conveniently, when that 169 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:35,790 ended, the IP group deal ended in 2015, by this time I was long retired, right? 170 00:09:35,990 --> 00:09:39,209 My friends were still running IP group, I'm sure you've met them, 171 00:09:40,449 --> 00:09:44,549 but I'd long retired, I was still in touch with them, but only for catching 172 00:09:44,549 --> 00:09:46,020 up over coffee or a glass of wine. 173 00:09:46,879 --> 00:09:53,125 Oxford was saying, we've noticed that In that 15 years, more ideas have come out 174 00:09:53,125 --> 00:09:55,965 of the chemistry department, pretty much all the other departments put together. 175 00:09:56,285 --> 00:09:57,754 What was, why was that? 176 00:09:57,895 --> 00:10:01,965 And I'm like, well because we cared, we really had to try and make it work. 177 00:10:02,715 --> 00:10:05,965 So that was how the idea of Oxford Sciences came about. 178 00:10:06,034 --> 00:10:11,335 It wasn't my idea, it was really a continuation of an idea that we'd all 179 00:10:11,335 --> 00:10:14,915 sort of had all those years ago and Oxford said you know what, why don't we try and 180 00:10:14,925 --> 00:10:16,685 do this experiment with every department? 181 00:10:17,145 --> 00:10:21,555 So, we partner with Oxford, so rather than an IP group, which obviously has done 182 00:10:21,555 --> 00:10:26,475 deals with lots of universities, we just want our own private commercialisation 183 00:10:26,495 --> 00:10:31,824 vehicle, which we called OSI, it's now called OSE, or Oxford Science Enterprises 184 00:10:32,415 --> 00:10:35,164 and then we said, right, we're not going to go out and raise 20 million this time, 185 00:10:35,164 --> 00:10:38,420 we're going to be really ambitious and in the end, well, in total, we've probably 186 00:10:38,420 --> 00:10:43,460 raised about a billion and Oxford has got the biggest, in effect, dedicated fund or 187 00:10:43,460 --> 00:10:45,149 whatever you want to call it in the world. 188 00:10:45,599 --> 00:10:49,539 But again, with the same mission that goes back to that amazing dinner I 189 00:10:49,540 --> 00:10:53,810 had after I'd been bitten by a snake, which is find brilliant scientists 190 00:10:53,900 --> 00:10:58,149 who've got ideas that can change the world and help them do it, right? 191 00:10:58,190 --> 00:11:01,020 And so in effect, lots has changed, but nothing has changed. 192 00:11:01,109 --> 00:11:02,839 That's really what we're trying to do. 193 00:11:02,980 --> 00:11:07,970 Yeah that's exceptionally clear, particularly the snake bite. 194 00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:15,870 So that completely resonates with what arguably one still sees a lot of today. 195 00:11:15,950 --> 00:11:20,459 So my question to you would be, you know, we still see a lot of companies, 196 00:11:20,510 --> 00:11:25,825 arguably at the stage you're talking about, still being sold to the US so, 197 00:11:25,925 --> 00:11:31,135 we've got OSE and similar funds around the UK now that have emulated the same 198 00:11:31,135 --> 00:11:37,405 sort of structure and they're functioning really well and yet, it still seems to be 199 00:11:37,504 --> 00:11:43,105 the normal course, not without exception, Oxford Nanopore being an example, but 200 00:11:43,174 --> 00:11:48,644 that most companies ultimately end up needing to take US money or listing on 201 00:11:48,644 --> 00:11:54,145 the NASDAQ as a sort of default playbook and so, do you with your experience, 202 00:11:54,155 --> 00:12:00,505 see anything additionally that we can do to change that as it's still evolving? 203 00:12:00,515 --> 00:12:03,895 And I'll ask a different question later rather than lead the witness. 204 00:12:03,895 --> 00:12:07,590 Yeah, no, it literally is the key question for me that I've wrestled 205 00:12:07,590 --> 00:12:11,400 with all of my life, what you've asked me, and I don't have the answers. 206 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:17,569 I still think it's a great shame that the UK still does have incredible ideas and 207 00:12:17,570 --> 00:12:23,645 yet we do not have the capital to allow the best of those ideas to go forward and 208 00:12:23,995 --> 00:12:28,584 it's no use trying to pretend that we have and I've met with Prime Ministers, I've 209 00:12:28,584 --> 00:12:34,535 met with different governments, every side of the political spectrum, and they all 210 00:12:34,624 --> 00:12:37,314 recognise that they've got to do something about it and say they're going to do 211 00:12:37,314 --> 00:12:42,635 something about it, but somehow something happens It doesn't happen , so... 212 00:12:42,635 --> 00:12:45,475 I don't know what you're talking about Dave, I've never experienced this! 213 00:12:45,954 --> 00:12:47,254 Must be some other government! 214 00:12:47,885 --> 00:12:49,305 You know, they're all the same to me. 215 00:12:49,305 --> 00:12:53,645 Nothing ever happens and it is kind of tragic and I think because of that 216 00:12:53,645 --> 00:12:57,464 there isn't this belief that can sort of break this glass ceiling, you know... 217 00:12:57,714 --> 00:12:59,055 It's self fulfilling. 218 00:12:59,915 --> 00:13:01,898 Yeah. 219 00:13:01,898 --> 00:13:05,704 I'm not of the mindset which is like, selling these companies to Americans 220 00:13:05,704 --> 00:13:09,604 or the Chinese or it's necessarily a bad thing because what it does do 221 00:13:09,604 --> 00:13:14,224 is it recycles capital, it's a great learning experience, it's a great sort 222 00:13:14,224 --> 00:13:15,974 of role model for people to do, right? 223 00:13:15,974 --> 00:13:20,024 Well, they sold for $500 million, we can do one better and sell for a billion. 224 00:13:20,034 --> 00:13:24,494 So it's not all bad, and also when companies get bought, you know, you get 225 00:13:24,494 --> 00:13:26,074 your second generation entrepreneurs. 226 00:13:26,074 --> 00:13:30,674 I mean, one young lad, I'm not going to name him, one young lad who came 227 00:13:30,674 --> 00:13:34,464 to work for me, you know, made a hundred million dollars from his spin 228 00:13:34,464 --> 00:13:41,819 out and you know, so he has created a sort of role model here in Oxford 229 00:13:42,010 --> 00:13:43,839 for someone who can do that, right? 230 00:13:43,890 --> 00:13:47,779 You know, in my day, the only way you could become rich was to go into the city. 231 00:13:47,810 --> 00:13:52,380 So to me, I'm a historian, so I see things in a very different, and these things 232 00:13:52,380 --> 00:13:56,419 don't necessarily move fast, you know, it's not a, but yeah, the government 233 00:13:56,429 --> 00:14:02,945 still doesn't really do enough, we know that, and it will talk a good game, and 234 00:14:03,025 --> 00:14:06,805 if they are serious, and we, you know, whatever we are post Brexit, we want 235 00:14:06,805 --> 00:14:10,835 to be an IP based economy, we really have to do some urgent work, right? 236 00:14:11,495 --> 00:14:15,274 And like you say, you know, UK pension funds, I've talked about it, I've sat 237 00:14:15,274 --> 00:14:19,419 on the patient capital review, and they're still not investing anything 238 00:14:19,430 --> 00:14:23,129 like the amount we need to see this stuff work and if we don't make this 239 00:14:23,139 --> 00:14:25,519 stuff work, what has the UK got? 240 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,950 You know, there's a bit like, it's nice to do this stuff because it's really 241 00:14:28,950 --> 00:14:33,169 important to do things like cancer and we saw the impact of the COVID vaccine that 242 00:14:33,169 --> 00:14:36,000 came out of Oxford, which was amazing. 243 00:14:36,020 --> 00:14:38,549 I was so sort of proud to be involved in that in a small way. 244 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,220 So, you know, these things are incredibly important. 245 00:14:41,250 --> 00:14:46,230 They're also the future of our economy and you know, even AI, I mean, you know, 246 00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:50,490 AI, we could have an amazing role in the AI world because Oxford is becoming a 247 00:14:50,490 --> 00:14:55,380 hub for AI ideas and I worry that we're going to miss that opportunity too. 248 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:00,339 And in your interactions with government, when you've gone and sort of pleaded 249 00:15:00,339 --> 00:15:04,030 the case, what do you think the best intervention would be that they could do? 250 00:15:04,220 --> 00:15:07,760 So I think there's actually two really important things and to 251 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,820 some extent they're separate and to some extent they're connected. 252 00:15:11,710 --> 00:15:15,710 So I've looked at lots of US companies, obviously, you know, people quote 253 00:15:15,850 --> 00:15:17,800 so many success stories in the US. 254 00:15:18,170 --> 00:15:20,199 What's interesting about a lot of them is that they... 255 00:15:20,299 --> 00:15:24,700 their first customers were actually government departments, or some 256 00:15:24,739 --> 00:15:28,810 kind, like, you know, so this happens, and the Americans know how 257 00:15:28,810 --> 00:15:32,175 to build companies, that's one thing we can't deny they do well, right? 258 00:15:32,545 --> 00:15:35,805 But a lot of them get this amazing headstart where if they're doing 259 00:15:35,805 --> 00:15:39,505 something really well, the government falls over itself to make sure that 260 00:15:39,505 --> 00:15:42,074 kind of, I won't call it soft money because they've got it, but it goes 261 00:15:42,095 --> 00:15:45,005 to them and they get their first customers so they can prove it works. 262 00:15:45,105 --> 00:15:50,054 They can get money and scale up and it gives investors confidence and 263 00:15:50,054 --> 00:15:54,520 actually, you know, just even in areas like genomics where I've worked a lot, 264 00:15:54,540 --> 00:15:58,089 obviously, I was chairman of Oxford Nanopore in the early days, like you 265 00:15:58,089 --> 00:16:00,369 know, the government come and see us and say yeah, we really want to help, 266 00:16:00,379 --> 00:16:02,219 but could we get contracts out of them? 267 00:16:02,349 --> 00:16:08,090 So to me, you know, the NHS is this unbelievable resource, but how much 268 00:16:08,090 --> 00:16:11,379 does it really help UK startups? 269 00:16:11,419 --> 00:16:12,949 It just is impossible. 270 00:16:13,310 --> 00:16:18,689 So all this kind of value and where we could make a difference to how 271 00:16:18,709 --> 00:16:22,124 we don't and it's kind of weird, we'd almost rather give contracts 272 00:16:22,124 --> 00:16:23,734 to US companies than our own. 273 00:16:23,825 --> 00:16:26,565 And by the way, you don't have to spend money to do that. 274 00:16:26,994 --> 00:16:29,885 I feel like that's an important memo to anyone in government listening. 275 00:16:30,464 --> 00:16:31,904 This won't cost you money. 276 00:16:32,365 --> 00:16:33,685 This is a free solution. 277 00:16:35,785 --> 00:16:40,114 it's almost like they're embarrassed to give it to their own, which 278 00:16:40,354 --> 00:16:43,454 like bit of like benign nepotism would be a bad thing. 279 00:16:43,524 --> 00:16:46,645 Well, the Americans have no qualms about it and obviously now they're 280 00:16:46,645 --> 00:16:49,505 like, well we won't even give anything to China or anywhere else. 281 00:16:49,515 --> 00:16:53,644 So like, so they have no qualms about backing their right? 282 00:16:53,644 --> 00:16:56,985 Because they believe in ideas, they see the ideas create the world, right? 283 00:16:57,004 --> 00:17:01,205 So it's like, so that frustrates me, right, so that... 284 00:17:01,655 --> 00:17:05,365 and maybe if people saw that the government was more behind that, it'd be 285 00:17:05,405 --> 00:17:09,295 easier to for instance, for pension funds to say right, we're now going to commit 286 00:17:09,305 --> 00:17:15,684 10 percent say, to UK startups because we know, but you almost can't blame them 287 00:17:15,685 --> 00:17:17,964 at times saying, well we don't want to commit money because they're never going 288 00:17:17,964 --> 00:17:19,275 to be given a chance by the government. 289 00:17:19,334 --> 00:17:22,385 You know it becomes this vicious cycle that needs to be broken. 290 00:17:22,635 --> 00:17:25,585 So, you know, sorry, I feel I'm rambling a bit... 291 00:17:25,585 --> 00:17:27,134 I think it's spot on. 292 00:17:27,134 --> 00:17:31,795 In 30 years, I've created probably more spin outs than anyone ever and 293 00:17:31,795 --> 00:17:34,565 that sounds like a boast and it's not because most of them have gone wrong. 294 00:17:35,415 --> 00:17:38,695 But I would say if at critical moments we could have accessed the 295 00:17:38,695 --> 00:17:44,425 contract, whether it's from even the Ministry of Defence or the, you know, 296 00:17:44,495 --> 00:17:46,025 would have been transformational. 297 00:17:46,150 --> 00:17:49,840 And it's not a flat playing field and that, you know, in my conversations, 298 00:17:49,889 --> 00:17:54,679 much shorter dated rather than yours with government, it was a bit bizarre 299 00:17:54,719 --> 00:17:57,290 that you almost had this conversation where they'd say, oh, well, you know, we 300 00:17:57,290 --> 00:18:00,300 think it's a private sector problem and you'd say, but it's not and the playing 301 00:18:00,300 --> 00:18:05,090 field isn't even, and Silicon Valley, lest we forget, was a defense project and 302 00:18:05,090 --> 00:18:09,909 basically still is and the IRA, they're just pumping money into, you know, all of 303 00:18:09,909 --> 00:18:14,190 these spinouts and by the way, poaching some of ours because great tax breaks and 304 00:18:14,190 --> 00:18:18,975 you do go, to your point, if this is our plan, and we've you know, kind of slightly 305 00:18:19,025 --> 00:18:24,215 ditched financial services for want of a better expression, we do need to realize 306 00:18:24,264 --> 00:18:28,144 that we've got to fight for it, and that we're not just going to automatically 307 00:18:28,184 --> 00:18:29,435 be given a seat at the table. 308 00:18:29,445 --> 00:18:35,449 Exactly, exactly, and to me it's slightly heartbreaking because that's 309 00:18:35,449 --> 00:18:38,659 all I've done with my life and we, you know, I'm not complaining, we've 310 00:18:38,659 --> 00:18:43,540 had some nice success stories and I'm not starving just yet, but I would 311 00:18:43,540 --> 00:18:45,899 have loved to have seen more impact. 312 00:18:46,069 --> 00:18:49,665 But they all talk the talk, it doesn't matter whether you're 313 00:18:49,775 --> 00:18:51,425 Labour or Conservative or whoever. 314 00:18:51,695 --> 00:18:55,684 They all say that this is what they want to see and to be fair, there's been some 315 00:18:55,684 --> 00:18:58,425 good things like VCT, EIS and stuff. 316 00:18:58,445 --> 00:19:00,865 There's been these things are really great but... 317 00:19:00,865 --> 00:19:02,595 Nothing moving the needle higher up the scale. 318 00:19:02,675 --> 00:19:03,595 You've got it. 319 00:19:03,935 --> 00:19:07,585 we can set these things up, but you know, you then want to get to that 320 00:19:07,585 --> 00:19:09,575 scale of capital and it's just a desert, 321 00:19:09,775 --> 00:19:10,065 Yeah. 322 00:19:10,395 --> 00:19:14,995 Okay and so coming to, that kind of spin and we spoke earlier about, you know, 323 00:19:15,045 --> 00:19:18,535 companies further up the spectrum being bought out by Americans, but something 324 00:19:18,535 --> 00:19:21,734 that I've heard recently from a number of people I've interviewed and kind of 325 00:19:21,775 --> 00:19:28,020 beyond is this thing of, because that capital isn't domestic, it's encouraging 326 00:19:28,130 --> 00:19:31,840 a sort of VC playbook that is quite short term, that's flipping things 327 00:19:32,170 --> 00:19:37,290 and that is actually, again, a self fulfilling prophecy that means that the 328 00:19:37,290 --> 00:19:42,110 most ambitious companies don't get an opportunity to really flourish and so 329 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,530 if we want to build another Nanopore, to use an example you're familiar with, 330 00:19:45,530 --> 00:19:49,879 and quite frankly, everyone is familiar with, actually that the capital that's 331 00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:54,070 loop that we're in is a dampening effect and I'd be really interesting 332 00:19:54,070 --> 00:19:58,675 to get your thoughts on that and if it can be sort of unpicked at all. 333 00:19:58,815 --> 00:20:03,344 And it's actually got harder, I mean, like, because of geopolitical tensions. 334 00:20:03,855 --> 00:20:08,165 You know, I was just out in Hong Kong two weeks ago, seeing some old friends, 335 00:20:08,165 --> 00:20:11,155 and when I was last there, it was like eight years ago before COVID. 336 00:20:11,429 --> 00:20:15,020 and raised a huge amount of money for Oxford over there and now there's a 337 00:20:15,290 --> 00:20:18,139 feeling from them, they were lovely, you know, they were delighted to see me 338 00:20:18,139 --> 00:20:20,989 and took me for some great dinners, but it was a bit like, well, you guys don't 339 00:20:20,989 --> 00:20:22,159 really want to deal with us anymore. 340 00:20:22,330 --> 00:20:24,120 You know, it's so... 341 00:20:24,770 --> 00:20:26,840 We need more domestic capital for other reasons. 342 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,905 Yeah, so it's a bit like, well, we can't deal with China. 343 00:20:29,005 --> 00:20:33,815 I got such grief for getting Huawei into Oxford Sciences, you know, I thought this 344 00:20:33,815 --> 00:20:37,804 was, you know, one of the world's great big companies and things are, we're all 345 00:20:37,804 --> 00:20:41,164 working well together and then suddenly it's become a sort of political problem. 346 00:20:41,844 --> 00:20:44,034 and it's all very well, sure, we can ban China, we can ban 347 00:20:44,044 --> 00:20:45,504 Saudi Arabia, we can ban anyone. 348 00:20:46,150 --> 00:20:47,810 But then where's the money gonna go? 349 00:20:48,100 --> 00:20:53,139 It's not making the life of the entrepreneurs on the ground any easier. 350 00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:56,699 The scientists and the entrepreneurs were like, we want to be really ambitious. 351 00:20:56,730 --> 00:20:58,230 Well, where are we going to get the money from? 352 00:20:58,230 --> 00:21:00,989 Cause the US is tricky. 353 00:21:01,050 --> 00:21:01,920 The US is very tricky. 354 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:06,930 We know that, you know, they're trying to get their capital, they do themselves, 355 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,610 they like to invest in their own stuff and they've done really well at it. 356 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,690 So, you know, they're interested in ideas to acquire at the right 357 00:21:12,690 --> 00:21:15,490 point, but it's usually so they can build their big companies bigger. 358 00:21:15,780 --> 00:21:20,099 You know, we've seen Google do this lots of times with, you know, the deep minds 359 00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:24,860 of the world set up by, one of my oldest friends them is the expertise is here. 360 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,740 The expertise is in the UK, but you know is the finance and the ambition 361 00:21:28,740 --> 00:21:30,770 because without the finance, you know, it's not very well being 362 00:21:30,770 --> 00:21:32,545 ambitious, but if you've not got any... 363 00:21:32,825 --> 00:21:35,780 the analogy is any petrol in the tank or whatever, you can't. 364 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,690 And these are very long, hard journeys, right? 365 00:21:38,990 --> 00:21:40,040 They don't happen overnight. 366 00:21:40,409 --> 00:21:45,679 Okay, and so, coming to something that is changing and, you know, the Mansion 367 00:21:45,679 --> 00:21:50,919 House Compact has been signed by a number of key DC pensions, defined 368 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:55,959 contribution pensions, schemes, and many of the larger players in the insurance 369 00:21:55,959 --> 00:22:00,190 buyout space and indeed lots of the consultants that advise those pension 370 00:22:00,190 --> 00:22:04,820 funds and they are committing now to 5%, which I appreciate isn't 10%, and 371 00:22:04,820 --> 00:22:08,639 it's certainly not what the Canadians have in their pension plans at 20%. 372 00:22:08,820 --> 00:22:12,190 But 5 percent is still massive compared to where we are. 373 00:22:12,190 --> 00:22:13,500 I think it's below 1 percent now. 374 00:22:13,890 --> 00:22:18,119 So there is going to be more pension capital by 2030 and obviously DC 375 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:19,330 pension plans will be growing. 376 00:22:19,330 --> 00:22:22,540 So call it that it might be 50, 60 billion, could be more 377 00:22:22,940 --> 00:22:24,180 that's going to be coming in. 378 00:22:24,339 --> 00:22:28,870 How do you see that impacting these problems and what do you think are 379 00:22:28,870 --> 00:22:31,090 the kind of straight up positives and what do you think are perhaps 380 00:22:31,090 --> 00:22:34,380 the bear traps that we need to look out for with that capital coming in? 381 00:22:34,710 --> 00:22:37,620 Well, as you say, it's all about, you know, if we look at what 382 00:22:37,629 --> 00:22:40,700 happens now, which is virtually nothing, it will be a quantum leap. 383 00:22:40,970 --> 00:22:45,429 So, like you say, it's not 20 percent like Canada, but it's still an 384 00:22:45,429 --> 00:22:47,419 enormous figure in the context... 385 00:22:47,885 --> 00:22:49,065 Of a depressingly low one. 386 00:22:49,065 --> 00:22:50,174 Exactly. 387 00:22:50,185 --> 00:22:55,235 Still, no, I mean, you know, with those kinds of figures, we could 388 00:22:55,605 --> 00:22:57,635 create some amazing companies. 389 00:22:58,105 --> 00:23:01,185 I think, again, this will all be a little bit controversial. 390 00:23:01,244 --> 00:23:03,885 We have to be careful and we've got to be honest. 391 00:23:04,345 --> 00:23:08,080 So, IP Group went and did deals with, you know, all the universities pretty 392 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,120 much, you know, it was one thing that I probably had a dozen universities signed 393 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:13,560 up before I retired and it was great. 394 00:23:13,570 --> 00:23:16,680 You know, we did say Frampton, we did Kings, Glasgow, and all 395 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,130 of them have got great ideas. 396 00:23:18,970 --> 00:23:21,899 But even if we look at the US, right, the US has only really 397 00:23:21,900 --> 00:23:23,110 got two or three clusters. 398 00:23:23,450 --> 00:23:27,290 That's a fact and they're unbelievably good at it and unbelievably big. 399 00:23:27,740 --> 00:23:31,050 But even they can't support, you know, there's only two really famous ones and 400 00:23:31,050 --> 00:23:35,569 that's the valley in the MIT cluster and actually, I remember going to, I 401 00:23:35,570 --> 00:23:39,740 think it was Gordon Brown, Tony Blair, so I'm going back a while, right? 402 00:23:39,820 --> 00:23:44,499 And they were like, we saw your work with this IP group idea, you know, could we do 403 00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:46,380 it with every single university in the UK? 404 00:23:46,540 --> 00:23:48,520 And I'm like, well, to be honest, no. 405 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,769 And actually, I've probably done it with too many. 406 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:58,010 I should have probably stuck to Cambridge, London Cluster and Oxford. 407 00:23:58,875 --> 00:24:01,215 And of course, it was like, well, that's not going to play well. 408 00:24:01,225 --> 00:24:02,645 We, you know, what about Manchester? 409 00:24:02,645 --> 00:24:04,225 I said, yeah, I love Manchester. 410 00:24:04,225 --> 00:24:05,565 I'm from Manchester, for God's sake. 411 00:24:05,565 --> 00:24:12,115 And, you know, but you won't necessarily get the scale and it's 412 00:24:12,145 --> 00:24:14,694 not just about, you've got really good science, you know, a world leading 413 00:24:14,694 --> 00:24:19,254 university, but if you don't get an ecosystem around it, it's difficult. 414 00:24:19,534 --> 00:24:19,935 Yeah. 415 00:24:19,985 --> 00:24:23,105 So, you know, let's say the UK only produced clusters in 416 00:24:23,105 --> 00:24:25,355 London, Oxford and Cambridge. 417 00:24:25,355 --> 00:24:29,535 That'd still be an amazing achievement that would transform the country. 418 00:24:30,315 --> 00:24:33,114 But obviously they didn't want that, they were like that's political suicide 419 00:24:33,114 --> 00:24:35,075 for us to be, you know, elitist. 420 00:24:35,244 --> 00:24:36,155 This is elitist. 421 00:24:36,225 --> 00:24:39,325 It's about creating the most powerful companies in the world with the best 422 00:24:39,335 --> 00:24:42,005 science in the world, run by the best people in the world, you know. 423 00:24:42,255 --> 00:24:45,635 So there's no, you know, it doesn't necessarily fit the 424 00:24:45,635 --> 00:24:47,025 sort of levelling up idea. 425 00:24:47,215 --> 00:24:47,655 Yeah. 426 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:48,900 That's my worry. 427 00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:49,800 I'm brutally honest. 428 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:50,190 Right? 429 00:24:51,145 --> 00:24:52,925 Well, they've been conflated almost, haven't they? 430 00:24:52,925 --> 00:24:54,875 And they don't necessarily sit that comfortably in reality. 431 00:24:54,875 --> 00:24:55,620 I think that's right. 432 00:24:55,895 --> 00:24:59,344 And one can see why, because you have universities geographically spread 433 00:24:59,344 --> 00:25:00,815 out, you have these great ideas. 434 00:25:00,975 --> 00:25:04,914 It's a tempting thing to say therefore, hey, let's pump more money in and create 435 00:25:04,924 --> 00:25:09,690 jobs and to some degree, it can be done, perhaps, but I had somebody called Mark 436 00:25:09,730 --> 00:25:13,449 Preston and he is from the motorsports industry and we were talking about 437 00:25:13,490 --> 00:25:17,129 the motorsports cluster and one of the things that he really highlighted, which 438 00:25:17,129 --> 00:25:20,620 is pretty well understood, but it's very relevant to this conversation, is 439 00:25:20,620 --> 00:25:23,759 just the high labor mobility and that if you move to Oxfordshire with your 440 00:25:23,759 --> 00:25:27,580 family from anywhere in the world, as a brilliant motorsports, you know, F1, 441 00:25:27,730 --> 00:25:32,449 Formula E, either an entrepreneur or somebody, joining one of the big teams, 442 00:25:32,670 --> 00:25:37,570 if that doesn't work out, there are lots of other jobs here and that's the human 443 00:25:37,790 --> 00:25:42,359 talent reality is that you don't want to move your family around willy nilly, but 444 00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:44,780 moving them here for motorsports is easy. 445 00:25:45,050 --> 00:25:47,599 So then you need to work out, right, well, what's adjacent to that? 446 00:25:47,599 --> 00:25:51,740 What can we do that has that kind of translational experience where people 447 00:25:51,770 --> 00:25:55,220 can say, well, this actually isn't too far away, so I feel comfortable 448 00:25:55,220 --> 00:25:56,659 taking that job in Oxford too. 449 00:25:56,705 --> 00:25:57,445 Spot on. 450 00:25:57,675 --> 00:25:59,275 And I've actually seen that happen. 451 00:25:59,545 --> 00:26:02,755 Like, even people who came with their families, like you say, they came from 452 00:26:02,755 --> 00:26:06,774 the US with their families, went into one job, it didn't work out, or the science 453 00:26:06,774 --> 00:26:11,224 didn't work, or the chemistry didn't work, and then within a few months they 454 00:26:11,224 --> 00:26:13,215 were over the road at another start up. 455 00:26:13,805 --> 00:26:17,355 And, you know, I used to just go to Boston and hang out there 456 00:26:17,405 --> 00:26:18,595 for a few days and watch them. 457 00:26:18,595 --> 00:26:22,935 I'd go to the bars, I'd meet some of the entrepreneurs and just listen to them. 458 00:26:22,965 --> 00:26:23,785 I just listened. 459 00:26:24,314 --> 00:26:25,844 Because I'm like you know what? 460 00:26:26,235 --> 00:26:27,514 I'm not clever, they're clever. 461 00:26:27,534 --> 00:26:31,585 What do you, know, and one of the best things that someone said to me It's like, 462 00:26:32,114 --> 00:26:36,745 you know, you really need sort of three things to make an ecosystem work, three 463 00:26:36,745 --> 00:26:40,354 things and I'm like, oh interesting, I'm gonna listen and he said the first 464 00:26:40,354 --> 00:26:41,614 you need to have world class science. 465 00:26:41,665 --> 00:26:42,054 Tick. 466 00:26:42,105 --> 00:26:42,424 Done. 467 00:26:42,884 --> 00:26:46,365 Secondly, it's got to be just a beautiful place, a nice place to live and I'm like, 468 00:26:46,725 --> 00:26:48,185 well, that's good, oxford's got that. 469 00:26:48,965 --> 00:26:51,665 The third, you've got to be able to walk everywhere and it's like, 470 00:26:51,685 --> 00:26:55,465 Ooh, I like that too and that's how MIT sort of built that cluster. 471 00:26:55,465 --> 00:26:59,765 You see them, they, you know, a scientist is there, you can walk over for coffee 472 00:26:59,765 --> 00:27:02,635 with another engineer to give him a job interview, then you can walk over 473 00:27:02,635 --> 00:27:08,645 and see a VC about raising $20 million to do whatever he wants to do and that 474 00:27:09,345 --> 00:27:11,284 is the beauty of these ecosystems. 475 00:27:11,304 --> 00:27:14,415 You've got to sort of create, and once it starts to work, it becomes 476 00:27:14,415 --> 00:27:16,645 self referencing and self fulfilling. 477 00:27:17,034 --> 00:27:21,835 But again, realistically, like, you know can we create an ecosystem 478 00:27:21,835 --> 00:27:23,165 in all these university towns? 479 00:27:23,165 --> 00:27:24,655 Of course we can't, it's nonsense. 480 00:27:24,764 --> 00:27:25,315 We know we can't. 481 00:27:25,820 --> 00:27:29,310 So coming back to kind of that point around how you build a cluster and 482 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,949 kind of cross pollination between industry and universities, I'd love 483 00:27:33,949 --> 00:27:37,190 to get your thoughts on the Ellison Institute for Technology and how that's 484 00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:38,389 going to change the landscape here. 485 00:27:38,565 --> 00:27:39,275 Fantastic. 486 00:27:39,504 --> 00:27:40,435 Just so exciting. 487 00:27:40,485 --> 00:27:41,125 It is isn't it? 488 00:27:41,145 --> 00:27:47,995 Just so exciting and I think just having someone coming into the ecosystem 489 00:27:48,004 --> 00:27:53,594 like that and doing things a bit differently and shaking it up and it's 490 00:27:53,594 --> 00:27:58,554 just amazing like, and I'm sort of so excited because, you know, here's 491 00:27:58,564 --> 00:28:02,674 someone who's built, who's created success on a scale that we can never 492 00:28:02,674 --> 00:28:05,104 imagine and it's fantastic to have that. 493 00:28:05,104 --> 00:28:10,225 So I think that will, you know and it hopefully will encourage more people 494 00:28:10,225 --> 00:28:14,495 who've won so big to think about doing stuff here, like people love Oxford. 495 00:28:14,495 --> 00:28:15,515 Oxford's got this weird... 496 00:28:16,065 --> 00:28:20,435 and if we could pull in some of that super talent, people who've got so 497 00:28:20,435 --> 00:28:24,425 much more money that they don't need to worry about money or whatever, but 498 00:28:24,734 --> 00:28:26,635 actually just want to see ideas work. 499 00:28:27,395 --> 00:28:28,565 So I think we need to be bold. 500 00:28:28,594 --> 00:28:33,560 I mean like, areas like DNA sequencing, I've spent most of my 501 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,770 life on that and AI again, I've spent most of my life observing that. 502 00:28:37,170 --> 00:28:42,600 You know, the UK could really make a pitch to be world leading in one of probably 503 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,070 the three big areas in the world today. 504 00:28:44,110 --> 00:28:47,380 I still think the sequencing of DNA is just everything. 505 00:28:48,190 --> 00:28:51,760 AI is clearly going to change everything we do and quantum will 506 00:28:51,990 --> 00:28:53,420 speed all of that up as well. 507 00:28:53,420 --> 00:28:57,800 So you've got three areas that are converging and you know Oxford could be 508 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:03,560 a world leader in all three and people could start, like you say, with the 509 00:29:03,589 --> 00:29:06,770 Ellison Institute, you could start to see that sort of stuff, Oh well, we want 510 00:29:06,770 --> 00:29:10,199 to be part of this and not just part of it, we will bloody make it happen 511 00:29:10,529 --> 00:29:12,139 because we know how to make it happen. 512 00:29:12,139 --> 00:29:16,260 So giving some of these companies a bit of a rocket up their backsides, 513 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:17,360 because some of them do need it. 514 00:29:17,409 --> 00:29:19,889 I mean, some of them are British as well, right? 515 00:29:19,889 --> 00:29:22,360 We can't just keep blaming politicians, that's boring, right? 516 00:29:22,900 --> 00:29:24,909 You know, everyone just moans or give them more money. 517 00:29:25,449 --> 00:29:29,409 But, you know, I do think sometimes we're complacent, we don't try and 518 00:29:29,409 --> 00:29:30,999 grow our companies as aggressively. 519 00:29:32,150 --> 00:29:34,790 That's definitely something I've heard before, just that ambition 520 00:29:34,790 --> 00:29:37,920 gap and it's a cliche, but it seems to be one for a reason. 521 00:29:37,970 --> 00:29:40,770 I mean, again, I mean, I don't want to get into the politics of it all, 522 00:29:40,770 --> 00:29:44,840 but it's almost slightly traumatizing that, you know, Moderna delivered a 523 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:49,020 vaccine and became worth, you know, 20 billion and we delivered a vaccine 524 00:29:49,020 --> 00:29:51,640 and we didn't do anything out of it. 525 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,450 It's a slightly, of course, it was great because we hopefully saved millions of 526 00:29:55,450 --> 00:30:00,580 lives and then helped particularly in the developing world because it was cheaper 527 00:30:00,589 --> 00:30:05,080 and more easy to deliver., So it was great for humanity, but a bit of what we'd also 528 00:30:05,090 --> 00:30:09,975 like to see a sort of, you know, a big unicorn win out of it, which is what... 529 00:30:10,170 --> 00:30:13,130 And reinvestment back into the university that housed it. 530 00:30:13,140 --> 00:30:17,195 Exactly, exactly, you know, that's it, you know, you start to see if this stuff 531 00:30:17,195 --> 00:30:22,084 works, it just goes back into funding research and inspires that new generation 532 00:30:22,085 --> 00:30:28,895 of scientists who can see, Oh, this lab was built by this success and that's what 533 00:30:28,895 --> 00:30:32,335 I've spent my life trying to encourage people to do and at times you do feel 534 00:30:32,335 --> 00:30:34,495 though that we're still sluggish, right? 535 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,310 So coming back to kind of Oxford and the ecosystem here which you referred 536 00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:43,689 to, you were talking about kind of going across the road and meeting VCs 537 00:30:43,690 --> 00:30:48,129 and obviously, OSE is a big source of investment funding for lots of 538 00:30:48,129 --> 00:30:51,809 companies and you also spoke earlier about being cross department focused. 539 00:30:52,625 --> 00:30:56,395 Now that we are where we are and it's all still evolving and you know, we've 540 00:30:56,395 --> 00:31:00,914 got this amazing source of capital, do you still think that being cross 541 00:31:00,915 --> 00:31:06,465 department and dare I say it, trying to do everything, which has a negative 542 00:31:06,465 --> 00:31:10,785 inferrence I appreciate, is the best strategy or do you think that we need 543 00:31:10,785 --> 00:31:14,795 to see more emergent kind of singularly focused funds coming into Oxford? 544 00:31:15,015 --> 00:31:16,024 Yeah, good question. 545 00:31:16,235 --> 00:31:20,075 I think we need to almost go back to sort of some philosophy, right? 546 00:31:20,135 --> 00:31:22,645 I mean, that sounds a bit strange, but like... 547 00:31:22,945 --> 00:31:23,505 I'll go with it. 548 00:31:23,515 --> 00:31:25,254 Yeah, let me just give you a little anecdote. 549 00:31:25,305 --> 00:31:28,665 So, in the early stages of COVID, one of my favourite pubs, probably my favourite 550 00:31:28,694 --> 00:31:31,915 pub in the world, the first pub I ever had a pint in Oxford when I arrived 551 00:31:31,915 --> 00:31:36,870 in 1988, was the Lamb and Flag and one of my old, friends, she sent me this 552 00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:40,690 article in the BBC saying that the Lamb and Flag had closed because of COVID and 553 00:31:40,690 --> 00:31:44,690 I thought, my God, this is like the end of an era, like, so many great evenings 554 00:31:44,690 --> 00:31:48,850 there, where we had so much fun, but also so many serious evenings there, like, you 555 00:31:48,860 --> 00:31:51,959 know, Nanopore you know, we had no money in the early days, we used to have our 556 00:31:51,959 --> 00:31:56,825 board meetings in the pub, you know, in the early days of Nanopore and I just, 557 00:31:56,825 --> 00:32:00,825 this is just such a tragedy, we lose his pub, we lose so much of our history. 558 00:32:00,825 --> 00:32:03,145 Obviously he's got all the Tolkien and the C.S. 559 00:32:03,165 --> 00:32:06,955 Lewis connection, which is unbelievably important, you know and I just remember 560 00:32:06,955 --> 00:32:10,695 thinking, I've got to do something about this, and what I started doing, 561 00:32:10,695 --> 00:32:13,995 I thought, why don't we set it up, not for profit, something that's 562 00:32:13,995 --> 00:32:18,325 really about the community and about helping Oxford and bless them, St. 563 00:32:18,325 --> 00:32:20,834 John's, I gave them the pitch and I think they thought I was completely 564 00:32:20,834 --> 00:32:26,774 crazy and I said, I really want you to reopen this pub, but allow us to do it 565 00:32:26,785 --> 00:32:28,875 differently and we'll set it up as... 566 00:32:29,090 --> 00:32:32,510 we'll call it The Inklings, named after The Inklings, and we'll try and pull 567 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,410 together some of the best scientists, the best writers, the best entrepreneurs, 568 00:32:36,410 --> 00:32:40,600 the best financers, we'll pull everyone in and anyway, long story short, we 569 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,559 signed up more than 300 Inklings, and St. 570 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:48,320 John's allowed us to take over, and we reopened the pub and some of those 571 00:32:48,330 --> 00:32:53,040 300 names, some of them are famous authors, but a lot of them are world 572 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,440 leading scientists, particularly from the chemistry department and a lot of 573 00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,500 them are world leading entrepreneurs who built big businesses and no one 574 00:33:00,500 --> 00:33:04,379 was allowed to put in more than £10,000 and the minimum was only £1000, so it 575 00:33:04,379 --> 00:33:05,879 was very democratic, no one could... 576 00:33:06,389 --> 00:33:10,260 But what almost broke my heart was some of the messages from people who were 577 00:33:10,260 --> 00:33:15,010 like no, I learned my first chemistry in there, I learned everything in that 578 00:33:15,130 --> 00:33:18,630 pub, I learned more in there than in the labs and one guy built a business. 579 00:33:19,140 --> 00:33:22,569 I'm not going to embarrass him by saying who it is, the business was valued at 580 00:33:23,370 --> 00:33:27,940 four billion at the time and he said, I will, of course, I want to be involved, 581 00:33:27,940 --> 00:33:33,030 I'm honored to be involved because it was such a big part of my research life, 582 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,400 that pub and he's gone on to build this amazing company and I just thought, you 583 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,900 know what, doing this sort of process, I suddenly thought there's so much 584 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,829 going on, there's so many people with ideas and history and actually I just 585 00:33:45,830 --> 00:33:48,589 thought, you know what, if all we do is open this pub and some of them meet 586 00:33:48,590 --> 00:33:52,929 each other, we'll have actually done a massive service to the ecosystem, so... 587 00:33:53,150 --> 00:33:56,570 Well you joke, I've had people say on this podcast like, where 588 00:33:56,570 --> 00:33:58,070 do you go to meet entrepreneurs? 589 00:33:58,070 --> 00:34:01,370 You know, you bump into them on the street in the coffee shops in you know, 590 00:34:01,490 --> 00:34:05,060 Silicon Valley or you know, as you were saying in Boston and people have literally 591 00:34:05,060 --> 00:34:06,650 said, oh, you go to the Lamb and Flag. 592 00:34:07,095 --> 00:34:09,205 And it is, you know, it's incredible. 593 00:34:09,205 --> 00:34:10,195 I reckon I'm going to... 594 00:34:10,195 --> 00:34:12,255 We are not sponsored by the Lamb and Flag by the way! 595 00:34:13,395 --> 00:34:16,795 But I'll go there tonight and I'm certain I will bump into 596 00:34:17,045 --> 00:34:18,934 entrepreneurs, CEOs, whatever. 597 00:34:19,215 --> 00:34:21,144 So what is my dream? 598 00:34:21,144 --> 00:34:23,935 What I want to see, because I'm thinking, oh, I'm 55, right? 599 00:34:24,145 --> 00:34:28,970 I would want to see some young person in the Lamb and Flag, a scientist 600 00:34:28,970 --> 00:34:33,270 who's got an idea that's going to change the world and meeting someone 601 00:34:33,270 --> 00:34:34,610 who says, right, you know what? 602 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,779 I sold my business 5, 10 years ago, I've got half a billion dollars in 603 00:34:38,780 --> 00:34:42,250 the bank and I'm going to back you and we're going to work together, I'll go 604 00:34:42,250 --> 00:34:46,680 chair, you go CEO and we won't sell out quickly to whoever comes along, you 605 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,080 know, just, and I'll help you avoid the mistakes that I made and that's like... 606 00:34:51,125 --> 00:34:52,105 So sort of peer to peer. 607 00:34:52,340 --> 00:34:56,575 Exactly and you know, and it clearly won't work like that if it sounds twee 608 00:34:56,595 --> 00:35:00,135 but you know, just seeing things like that Ellison Institute, you realise that that 609 00:35:00,135 --> 00:35:06,355 magic rubs off, it becomes part of the DNA of Oxford and part of the Oxford story, 610 00:35:06,355 --> 00:35:09,875 which for me is still incredibly romantic, there's been so many disappointments, 611 00:35:09,925 --> 00:35:13,565 it's taken too long, and I'm still a believer that some of the best ideas 612 00:35:13,565 --> 00:35:16,970 in the world are in Oxford, and at some point they will see the light of day, 613 00:35:17,070 --> 00:35:20,010 you know, First Light Fusion is a dream. 614 00:35:20,020 --> 00:35:24,000 If it works, it will be one of the most important companies ever, right, in the 615 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,285 history of the world, you know, we'll see if it works, I desperately pray it does, 616 00:35:28,335 --> 00:35:31,555 but that's what you're playing for and if you have enough shots on goal like that. 617 00:35:32,355 --> 00:35:36,185 So rather than these kind of slightly, let's build it, finance it, sell it 618 00:35:36,195 --> 00:35:39,434 for a hundred two hundred, million or whatever, I would love to see 619 00:35:39,434 --> 00:35:43,365 some dreaming again, you know, like some, Oxford is about dreaming. 620 00:35:43,365 --> 00:35:46,234 That's the whole point, particularly if you're younger, but if you can have 621 00:35:46,234 --> 00:35:50,854 young people who are brilliant with dreams, marrying up with older people 622 00:35:50,854 --> 00:35:56,000 with money and experience, we could do some serious damage and I worry 623 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,120 that we've not, we mustn't lose that. 624 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,560 We've got to keep that magic. 625 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:01,230 That connectivity. 626 00:36:01,250 --> 00:36:04,740 Exactly and like I say, people in the world, what do people want to do? 627 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:05,589 They want to have impact. 628 00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:10,499 So actually, even though funding is difficult, everything's difficult, 629 00:36:10,740 --> 00:36:13,549 if you've got a really good idea that will have positive impact on 630 00:36:13,550 --> 00:36:16,940 the world, the chances are someone out there will help you get there. 631 00:36:17,225 --> 00:36:21,510 And do you think that, you know, ironically, the kind of deal that's 632 00:36:21,510 --> 00:36:28,029 in place with OSE that has this agreed IP for the ideas that come out, do 633 00:36:28,030 --> 00:36:31,099 you think that has any dampening effect on those individuals thinking, 634 00:36:31,100 --> 00:36:32,510 oh well it's already spoken for? 635 00:36:32,860 --> 00:36:36,680 Obviously the intention isn't that, but I've definitely heard, I've definitely 636 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,930 heard suggest things along that line. 637 00:36:39,180 --> 00:36:39,910 It's a good question. 638 00:36:39,935 --> 00:36:43,265 Probably good to clarify this because I've probably heard every side of 639 00:36:43,265 --> 00:36:45,125 the argument, again, not forever. 640 00:36:45,125 --> 00:36:48,185 So I know that I'm not anything to do with anything, I can sort 641 00:36:48,185 --> 00:36:50,015 of talk about it dispassionately. 642 00:36:50,015 --> 00:36:55,955 So I mean, the way all the deals that were ever done, whether it was 643 00:36:55,955 --> 00:37:00,935 IP group or OSI or CEOs there is, had a simple philosophy that they 644 00:37:00,935 --> 00:37:02,765 only shared the university stake. 645 00:37:03,745 --> 00:37:06,025 They never took anything off the scientists themselves, 646 00:37:06,465 --> 00:37:07,635 that was the whole philosophy. 647 00:37:07,685 --> 00:37:12,664 So theoretically, the scientists can never be any worse off because unfortunately, 648 00:37:12,665 --> 00:37:17,785 when we did this Oxford deal, some kind of lots of strange things sort of started 649 00:37:17,815 --> 00:37:22,205 to happen where people are like, well, the UK, the reason the UK because universities 650 00:37:22,215 --> 00:37:26,455 are taking too much equity, which isn't interesting and obviously the scientists 651 00:37:26,465 --> 00:37:29,095 love that idea because it's like, well, the university should have no equity or 652 00:37:29,095 --> 00:37:30,277 maybe 5 percent and we'll get it all. 653 00:37:30,277 --> 00:37:34,460 Well I think the spin out review has done quite a lot to break out 654 00:37:34,460 --> 00:37:36,890 that myth and the fact that Irene Tracy was one of the co-authors. 655 00:37:36,915 --> 00:37:37,545 Exactly. 656 00:37:37,605 --> 00:37:39,565 But that was where it all kind of got conflated. 657 00:37:39,565 --> 00:37:42,765 You know, there's something like, and I'm like, well, you know, we 658 00:37:42,765 --> 00:37:46,325 get what we get, we just get half the university stake for which we've 659 00:37:46,545 --> 00:37:48,199 committed a huge amount of capital. 660 00:37:48,199 --> 00:37:53,334 We didn't get given it because you know, they got this massive stake and Oxford got 661 00:37:53,335 --> 00:37:55,695 600 million for its projects, you know? 662 00:37:55,695 --> 00:38:00,035 So, you know, so to me, I am still slightly of the... 663 00:38:00,515 --> 00:38:04,525 at the end of the day, the university is a charity and if you are an employee 664 00:38:04,525 --> 00:38:07,765 of the university and you come up with a brilliant idea, you should want the 665 00:38:07,765 --> 00:38:12,535 university to have a big stake and actually, one of the things that I did was 666 00:38:12,555 --> 00:38:18,935 to give my stake in OSI to the university, to my old college, because I thought, 667 00:38:18,935 --> 00:38:21,865 well I don't want anyone thinking I'm here to try and make money and exploit 668 00:38:21,895 --> 00:38:23,455 these scientists, so I actually gave it. 669 00:38:23,805 --> 00:38:26,255 So it paid towards the H. 670 00:38:26,255 --> 00:38:26,345 B. 671 00:38:26,365 --> 00:38:27,055 Allen Center. 672 00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:27,480 Okay. 673 00:38:28,260 --> 00:38:28,710 Amazing. 674 00:38:28,985 --> 00:38:32,655 And I actually really believe passionately that, you've got to want to... 675 00:38:33,615 --> 00:38:37,815 the university, if you're there and a professor and you've had 20 years 676 00:38:37,825 --> 00:38:39,934 there, why wouldn't you want the university to do well out of it? 677 00:38:39,934 --> 00:38:43,234 It's going to pay for your labs, your students, it's... 678 00:38:43,245 --> 00:38:47,260 so, I think the debate got very charged and very emotional and this, you know, 679 00:38:47,470 --> 00:38:51,630 we could talk about it for hours, but I think they probably arrived at a 680 00:38:51,700 --> 00:38:56,279 reasonable place, but I don't believe ever, sorry just to finish, I'll have 681 00:38:56,279 --> 00:39:00,500 my rant here, this idea that, oh well that's why the UK's doing badly because 682 00:39:00,549 --> 00:39:03,470 the universities gobbled all the equity, that's just bollocks, I'm sorry. 683 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:08,830 No and I agree with you and as I say, the spin out review has been very helpful to 684 00:39:08,830 --> 00:39:13,800 sort of really open up what everyone's doing and compare it in broad daylight. 685 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,180 You know, kind of have the conversation in the open, such as we're doing here. 686 00:39:17,990 --> 00:39:21,590 It does, from conversations I'm having, and I'm not subject to it, 687 00:39:21,660 --> 00:39:25,740 but I don't think that people don't want the university to have it. 688 00:39:25,755 --> 00:39:30,725 I think that there has been a sense that somehow the signaling power of having the 689 00:39:30,725 --> 00:39:36,295 university is not somehow a positive thing and I guess I would say that out loud, 690 00:39:36,295 --> 00:39:39,245 not because I necessarily agree with it, you know, part of the tagline of Oxford 691 00:39:39,245 --> 00:39:43,185 Plus is to kind of dispel some of the myths and I would say this is a pretty 692 00:39:43,185 --> 00:39:49,855 well propagated myth and I think that it's quite important that we are sort of 693 00:39:49,875 --> 00:39:53,735 actively reaching out to people such as you've suggested, but also kind of, you 694 00:39:53,735 --> 00:39:59,874 know, institutions, entities, and make sure that Oxford has the right reputation 695 00:40:00,275 --> 00:40:05,254 as an investor, increasing the probability of success and I don't, truthfully, 696 00:40:05,295 --> 00:40:07,525 really understand why that isn't the case. 697 00:40:07,850 --> 00:40:08,760 It's an interesting one. 698 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,910 So I can only speak from my experience. 699 00:40:12,250 --> 00:40:21,039 2015, I kind of came back and I retired when I turned 50, which was January 2019. 700 00:40:21,130 --> 00:40:22,479 So I sort of had four years. 701 00:40:23,439 --> 00:40:26,380 I think in that four years, you'd have to check the numbers, but I think 702 00:40:26,390 --> 00:40:30,040 I'm probably confident that in that four years we created more spin outs 703 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:34,020 and raised more capital than in the last 20 years, just in four years. 704 00:40:34,155 --> 00:40:35,465 Which is an extraordinary achievement. 705 00:40:35,465 --> 00:40:38,185 So to me everyone, like, Oxford, 706 00:40:38,395 --> 00:40:42,425 what I love about Oxford, right, you know, you've got 20,000 incredibly clever people 707 00:40:42,504 --> 00:40:44,654 all disagreeing all the time, right? 708 00:40:44,714 --> 00:40:46,245 So I've just learned to live with that. 709 00:40:46,845 --> 00:40:48,475 But ultimately, numbers are numbers, right? 710 00:40:48,485 --> 00:40:52,294 Since Oxford Sciences arrived, the figures, any kind of matrix, 711 00:40:52,294 --> 00:40:54,155 anything you want to look at, just went through the roof. 712 00:40:54,485 --> 00:40:57,555 You know, and funds came and invested in Oxford, who'd never invested in 713 00:40:57,725 --> 00:41:00,678 Oxford, never even been to Oxford and I know that because I've brought a lot 714 00:41:00,678 --> 00:41:03,175 of them here and they said, Oh, we've never been here, this is beautiful, 715 00:41:03,275 --> 00:41:04,535 maybe we'll hang out here more, 716 00:41:04,655 --> 00:41:04,985 you know? 717 00:41:05,055 --> 00:41:05,355 So... 718 00:41:05,605 --> 00:41:06,755 And are they still coming? 719 00:41:06,755 --> 00:41:12,130 They're still coming, but again, so I'm not here to do an advert for OSC, right? 720 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:18,725 That's not, I left in 2019, I think, you know, it's still run by people who I'm 721 00:41:18,735 --> 00:41:22,105 very good friends with, I've got a drink with one of the senior people tonight. 722 00:41:22,725 --> 00:41:27,095 I think, you know, it's common knowledge OSC had some management issues, I left 723 00:41:27,095 --> 00:41:34,715 and then they went through two CEOs and it all became a bit, you know, COVID hit, so 724 00:41:34,715 --> 00:41:36,805 probably the personal thing wasn't there. 725 00:41:36,845 --> 00:41:40,325 I think some of the scientists like, oh, we don't see OSC anymore. 726 00:41:40,685 --> 00:41:44,805 I still can't get used to the name change as well so you know, we don't, whatever 727 00:41:44,805 --> 00:41:45,894 they call it, we don't see them anymore. 728 00:41:45,895 --> 00:41:49,420 So I think there was a bit of, you know, oh he's having a bit of a dark 729 00:41:49,420 --> 00:41:52,300 patch, not to say that it was under a great patch with me under it. 730 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,200 I'm not trying to make that pointment, I think there was definitely some 731 00:41:55,490 --> 00:41:59,940 internal strife, I think and I'm very hopeful they've got through that, I 732 00:41:59,940 --> 00:42:04,390 hear good things again, I hear oh yeah, we saw them again last week and it's, 733 00:42:04,900 --> 00:42:06,190 we, are all working together, so... 734 00:42:06,290 --> 00:42:08,570 And actually I've got Ed Bussey coming on next week and I'm really 735 00:42:08,570 --> 00:42:09,910 excited to hear what the plans are. 736 00:42:10,130 --> 00:42:14,369 I'm very excited that, you know, there's a platform where, hopefully, further to this 737 00:42:14,370 --> 00:42:19,580 conversation, we'll be able to dispel, in sort of real time and meet some of those, 738 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:25,200 not criticisms, that's too strong, but like, you know, get up in front of it. 739 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,590 I've always said, like I said, that's why I gave away my shares at the start. 740 00:42:28,900 --> 00:42:33,010 So I was like, all I've ever wanted is to see brilliant ideas in Oxford 741 00:42:33,499 --> 00:42:34,669 get out there into the world. 742 00:42:34,860 --> 00:42:37,150 So if there's anything stopping that, I want to know about it. 743 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,469 like, so to me, but you know, I've not heard any... 744 00:42:40,649 --> 00:42:41,969 Like anything isn't it? 745 00:42:41,969 --> 00:42:45,150 You know, it takes years to win a good reputation, and it can be a short period 746 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,849 where, you know, you can lose it and we spoke about this on the way over here to 747 00:42:48,850 --> 00:42:52,609 the studio, but I think it's incredibly easy to be a naysayer, and actually we 748 00:42:52,609 --> 00:42:57,035 need to be part of people saying right, we can be more than the sum of our parts. 749 00:42:57,035 --> 00:42:58,395 We've got a lot of good stuff here. 750 00:42:58,675 --> 00:43:01,865 I love this, but pie makers and pie eaters, like everyone just wants the pie 751 00:43:01,875 --> 00:43:05,395 to be bigger because then everyone does better rather than worrying about, you 752 00:43:05,395 --> 00:43:10,065 know, everyone's little fiefdoms and I think it's really important that Oxford 753 00:43:10,124 --> 00:43:14,035 and all of its stakeholders take some responsibility for being constructive. 754 00:43:14,725 --> 00:43:18,725 100 percent agree and Oxford has got this weird, like, I love the 755 00:43:18,725 --> 00:43:21,835 place, but it does have an amazing ability to be petty at times. 756 00:43:22,024 --> 00:43:25,585 Yeah, I've seen it happen at a drinks party where it's like, you know, 757 00:43:25,595 --> 00:43:27,065 that person's over there, right? 758 00:43:27,295 --> 00:43:29,045 Are you serious that you're saying this? 759 00:43:29,075 --> 00:43:30,225 And I was really shocked. 760 00:43:30,635 --> 00:43:34,665 So, you know, we're all just got to get stronger and bigger and get on with it. 761 00:43:34,725 --> 00:43:37,900 I don't live here anymore, so I miss the place and the main reason 762 00:43:37,900 --> 00:43:41,600 I come back is to visit my pub, but you know, there's nothing I want to 763 00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,810 see more in my life than these ideas work and Oxford reach its potential. 764 00:43:45,810 --> 00:43:47,175 That's so important, right? 765 00:43:47,415 --> 00:43:50,175 You know, again, on the way over, we were talking about cancer vaccines, 766 00:43:50,445 --> 00:43:53,525 you're talking about blood sugar testing, you know, these are things 767 00:43:53,535 --> 00:43:56,744 that change millions of lives and we all want to see it happen. 768 00:43:56,744 --> 00:43:58,870 Absolutely and this place has got it. 769 00:43:58,900 --> 00:44:00,030 You know, what do we know? 770 00:44:00,390 --> 00:44:05,030 The world has got a lot of problems and we also know that a lot of the solutions 771 00:44:05,130 --> 00:44:06,780 are in this beloved city of ours. 772 00:44:06,790 --> 00:44:10,300 So, you know, we've just got to have that ambition to say, right, we're going to 773 00:44:10,380 --> 00:44:12,389 go for it and nothing's going to stop us. 774 00:44:12,544 --> 00:44:14,624 So when are we going to host the big Oxford conference when 775 00:44:14,624 --> 00:44:15,895 we get everybody to come here? 776 00:44:16,340 --> 00:44:16,950 You know what? 777 00:44:17,850 --> 00:44:23,370 Again, maybe it was COVID, but we need to do more of that, you know, Oxford's 778 00:44:24,170 --> 00:44:28,440 got some of the nicest buildings in the world, what they should be doing, and OSE 779 00:44:28,820 --> 00:44:34,500 should be helping them and it's like, fill those buildings, fill them with the best 780 00:44:34,500 --> 00:44:38,480 ideas in Oxford and the best people in the world, it's not complicated, that's what 781 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,400 needs to get done, and that's what I did. 782 00:44:40,420 --> 00:44:44,889 I wore myself out doing it, you know, but I kind of, it's like, you know, 783 00:44:44,929 --> 00:44:45,969 we're going to have another conference. 784 00:44:46,689 --> 00:44:48,359 , We don't just want to talk about AI. 785 00:44:48,359 --> 00:44:51,919 We want to show everyone what we've got, you know, and, if we think 786 00:44:51,929 --> 00:44:54,999 we've got another Nanopore, it's like, here, this is what we've got, 787 00:44:55,049 --> 00:44:59,659 and we have to be ambitious and give them nice dinners at High Table. 788 00:44:59,669 --> 00:45:01,779 It doesn't matter if you're one of the richest people in the world. 789 00:45:01,779 --> 00:45:03,179 It's so fabulous, it's such a treat. 790 00:45:03,329 --> 00:45:06,929 Well, as we've seen with the Ellison Institute, people who are 791 00:45:07,009 --> 00:45:10,519 successful beyond anything we can imagine still want to be involved 792 00:45:10,519 --> 00:45:11,969 in these projects and that... 793 00:45:12,089 --> 00:45:13,429 are hallowed halls, right? 794 00:45:13,529 --> 00:45:16,579 It's a privilege to live here, it's a privilege to go into a college, it's 795 00:45:16,579 --> 00:45:19,659 a privilege to be around people that their ideas have the potential to 796 00:45:19,659 --> 00:45:22,669 change the world and all the rest of us need to do is get on board and be 797 00:45:22,669 --> 00:45:24,839 helpful in whatever way we are capable. 798 00:45:25,034 --> 00:45:28,204 It's funny you say that, it takes me back to, days when I'd just 799 00:45:28,204 --> 00:45:31,304 arrived as an undergraduate and probably I was a bit cocky in those 800 00:45:31,304 --> 00:45:32,684 days because I was a chess player. 801 00:45:32,684 --> 00:45:34,009 You don't know what you don't know yet! 802 00:45:34,319 --> 00:45:36,834 Yeah, you just think, you know, and like some people, Oh, 803 00:45:36,834 --> 00:45:37,994 he's like a top chess player. 804 00:45:38,649 --> 00:45:38,869 Yeah. 805 00:45:38,869 --> 00:45:40,319 I mean, you have more reason than most. 806 00:45:40,384 --> 00:45:45,044 Well, no, you know, and I remember like, I think he was the college stud, 807 00:45:45,044 --> 00:45:48,144 he was a good looking guy, he was brilliant at sport and all that stuff 808 00:45:48,144 --> 00:45:52,194 and he came up to, I think I wanted to join the squash team, he let me play 809 00:45:52,194 --> 00:45:53,794 squash with him to give me a trial. 810 00:45:53,794 --> 00:45:57,554 He said, you might make it into the third team, you know, so it was like a... 811 00:45:58,084 --> 00:46:02,144 and I just remember him sort of walking by me and say, yeah, you've got a chess set? 812 00:46:02,144 --> 00:46:04,514 I said, yeah, I don't know. 813 00:46:04,514 --> 00:46:07,534 He said, what you need to understand about Oxford, he's like a year older 814 00:46:07,534 --> 00:46:10,774 than me, he wasn't my tutor, you know he said, what you need to understand about 815 00:46:10,774 --> 00:46:13,904 Oxford is no matter how big you think you are, it's so much bigger than you. 816 00:46:14,924 --> 00:46:18,914 Actually it's not a bad point, you know, it's not a bad point. 817 00:46:19,024 --> 00:46:21,289 No, I've said that to lots of people since I've moved here. 818 00:46:21,679 --> 00:46:24,729 Thank you, Dave, this has been a really great conversation. 819 00:46:24,739 --> 00:46:27,949 Is there anything else you want to add that you feel we haven't covered? 820 00:46:28,064 --> 00:46:32,644 No, I suppose the only thing that, you know, lots of new ideas in therapeutics 821 00:46:32,644 --> 00:46:38,874 and vaccines, there's no question, we need to see the convergence of AI with some 822 00:46:38,874 --> 00:46:44,043 of our, you know, things like chemistry and drug libraries because that will 823 00:46:44,043 --> 00:46:49,153 change everything, you know, the minute we start to use the power of generative 824 00:46:49,153 --> 00:46:53,693 AI to do research faster, it will be transformational, particularly when you 825 00:46:53,693 --> 00:46:56,173 sort of throw quantum computing into that. 826 00:46:56,493 --> 00:47:01,123 So you start to think, well, if there's ever been a time in human history, 827 00:47:01,203 --> 00:47:04,753 this is the historian in me sort of struggling to come out, I think 828 00:47:04,753 --> 00:47:08,468 we're going to see the equivalent of, you know, a hundred industrial 829 00:47:08,468 --> 00:47:09,998 revolutions in the next ten years. 830 00:47:10,898 --> 00:47:15,128 Literally, that's what I believe, passionately and that could, a big part 831 00:47:15,128 --> 00:47:18,878 of it could happen in Oxford and it only needs one idea to work in Oxford. 832 00:47:19,368 --> 00:47:21,998 We've seen how big ideas are, like that's what the Americans have 833 00:47:21,998 --> 00:47:27,148 taught us, you have one idea and it can be worth a couple of trillion. 834 00:47:27,718 --> 00:47:30,898 So, you know, I'd love to see people dreaming again. 835 00:47:30,948 --> 00:47:34,648 Like, the biggest ideas in the world, some of them are here, why 836 00:47:34,668 --> 00:47:39,333 can't we have at least one that starts to have that ambition. 837 00:47:39,648 --> 00:47:40,638 And just be ambitious. 838 00:47:41,388 --> 00:47:41,858 Thank you. 839 00:47:42,063 --> 00:47:42,433 Brilliant. 840 00:47:42,433 --> 00:47:42,893 Thank you. 841 00:47:43,328 --> 00:47:46,078 Thanks for listening to this episode of Oxford Plus, presented 842 00:47:46,078 --> 00:47:47,488 by me, Susannah de Jager. 843 00:47:47,968 --> 00:47:50,558 If you want to stay up to date with all things Oxford Plus, please 844 00:47:50,568 --> 00:47:54,988 visit our website, OxfordPlus.co.uk and sign up to our newsletter 845 00:47:55,078 --> 00:47:56,458 so you never miss an update. 846 00:47:56,798 --> 00:47:59,988 Oxford Plus was made in partnership with Mishcon de Reya and is produced 847 00:47:59,988 --> 00:48:01,648 and edited by Story Ninety Four.