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Brad Frost: Brendann.

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Brendan Dawes: Hey Brad, how are you?

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Brad Frost: I'm doing great.

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I'm just gonna get right into it.

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What has you waking up excited these days?

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Brendan Dawes: You start
with the big questions.

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Uh, why are we alive?

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Yeah.

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Um, just the possibilities.

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you know, I mean, I'm in a very
privileged position, my job is.

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I work on some beautiful projects.

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Most of the time I'm just doing stuff
for myself and selling my art and things.

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So, each day, I guess I'm curious
to know what it's gonna hold.

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And that's why I get up, because I
don't know how the day's gonna pan out.

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I don't know if I'm working on
something, maybe a difficult problem,

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am I gonna be able to solve it today?

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Usually when you go to bed and you
wake up in the morning, you go, ha

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ha, a missing semi coal on you, idiot.

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Or something like that.

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So I'm a very much seizing
the day living in the now so

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that's what drives me really.

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And like I said, I'm in a very
privileged opportunity to po position,

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to work with people that are smarter
than me and more talented than me.

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I can learn from them, and
that's what I want to do.

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I want to, One of my favorite quotes
is Larry King, who said, I never

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learned anything whilst I was talking.

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Brad Frost: Yeah.

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Brendan Dawes: and I know I'm
gonna be talking on this thing.

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So it's ironic.

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But for me it's about taking
time, pausing and listening.

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I wanna be present to just listen
to other people and new ideas

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and be challenged on things.

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So yeah that's why I, I get up,

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Brad Frost: that's beautiful.

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You've already covered so many things.

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It sounds like you've created the
conditions by which you are able to

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be directed at creative opportunity
and being comfortable with the unknown

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of what comes through that process.

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And to realize that brain is doing
something overnight that then allows you

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to wake up the next day, do it all again,

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Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

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Brad Frost: And you are
listening for signals.

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your own intuition and instincts,
but also through the collaborations

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you have with others with different
and more complimentary skill sets.

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And it's not a smarter thing,
I'm sure that they would say

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the same thing, about you.

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Allow that in Brendan at the very least.

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Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Maybe.

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I'm just trying to improve every day,
I don't get complacent about what I'm

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doing or how I'm doing it, and I just
wanna constantly learn new things.

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I have this idea that there's the
things you know, which are like

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this: imagine a sort of messy circle.

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On the outside of that are
all the things you don't know.

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And both those things are
expanding or they should expand.

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The outer one is obviously
infinite, but you wanna position

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yourself as a creative person.

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You don't wanna be bang in the
middle of all the things you

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know, that's really boring, right?

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So you wanna be on the edge on that,
on the event horizon of the things

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you do know and the things you don't
know, and that's constantly expanding.

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That's where I position myself.

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I want to do things I
don't know how to do.

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I guess that's what drives me each morning
when I wake up, it's to go, okay, what can

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I learn today and what don't wanna know?

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The other thing is I just
encourage people to read.

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Put down the pocket sadness machines
and swap that rectangle for an analog

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papery one and read lots of stuff.

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Fiction, nonfiction, things you
don't know about, things you

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don't think you're interested in.

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The more input you've got going on in
your head, the better you're gonna be

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as a creative person or as a person
generally, and so I'm constantly trying

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to just give myself strategies to
try and just push myself even more.

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Brad Frost: You just described one of
the main reasons I wanted to talk to you.

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In this moment, with the,
technology paradigm shifting

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and everyone is scared shitless.

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There are people like you.

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I think about often who, and you
described it so well just that those

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rings of where you're at, where what's
comfortable and the stuff, it being too

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close to the center is that comfort.

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It's not just boring, it's
risky and, and increasingly so.

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Brendan Dawes: Mm.

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Brad Frost: what I see a lot is a lot
of folks in that center of the circle

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of what they've already known and that
is being radically disrupted right now.

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What you're describing is this
process and these things that you

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can do and teach yourself and train
yourself to do is to really embrace

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the comfort of the unknown or get more
comfortable being uncomfortable, in

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order to do useful things with it.

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I come from a certain lens of creative
professional that I'm around a lot.

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And I think that there's been a lot of
those, what we could you know, capital C

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creativity has been just totally absent
and not encouraged for a very long time.

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And it's been the, the focus has been
on the center of that known circle.

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It's like, how could we you at this
thing that is known and quantifiable

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and reproducible and how do we just keep
you there and, punching out the widgets.

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Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

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Brad Frost: And it's just it's depressing.

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And that's all been burned to a
crisp, seemingly overnight and

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everyone's freaking out about it.

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So I think that you starting to
describe these kind of things that you

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could do to start to allow that in.

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Process the fear, but ultimately
harness it, move past it and get closer

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to that outer edge of that circle is

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Brendan Dawes: yeah, definitely.

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First of all, you realize that evolution
wasn't about survival of the fittest,

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Darwin, it was about adaptation.

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So the thing survived 'cause
they could adapt, right?

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It wasn't about who was strongest.

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And and I'm summarizing that, but I've
seen it in the past where, during the

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Flash days people would say I'm a Flash
designer, or certain database type things.

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They were ColdFusion people or, and I
thought that thing's gonna die eventually.

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And then what are you gonna call yourself?

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Brad Frost: Yeah

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Brendan Dawes: and so people but I just
say though, I totally get it because

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for a long time, pays the bills, money
coming in, you gotta feed family.

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You gotta do all that and,
and that's what you gotta do.

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But things change, nothing persists.

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So you've got to be able to adapt.

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And if you aren't adaptable, then
you're going to struggle and then

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you're gonna start to hit out on.

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The changes.

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So let's take, we, the reason I really
loved your, the Creative Infinite

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thing you did the little, should we,
was it a talk or an essay or a thesis?

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I dunno.

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But it was a,

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Brad Frost: I

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Brendan Dawes: it was really resonated
with me because you were taking a very

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curious approach to this new technology
rather than, a lot of people are just,

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we're we live in a very polarized
culture now, an extreme culture where

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it's black or white, there's no nuance.

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Brad Frost: Yeah.

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Brendan Dawes: were taken

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Approach of going, hang on a
minute, this thing's interesting

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and we need to explore it.

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There are problems.

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We know there are problems, but
let's not just, throw it out on it.

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So I really.

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I really love that approach.

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But this is nothing new, right?

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With new, with technology as we all know.

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There's a great book that's all
about the use of machines and music.

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I'll have to dig it up.

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I can't remember what the name of
it was, but it talks about how when

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electric microphones were invented.

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There was like headlines in newspapers
and commentary about it's cheating, right?

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Which seems so insane right now,
but at the time, when you sang, you

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had to project your voice, right?

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Be loud and before microphones,
people like Sinatra, Billie Holiday,

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Julie London, people like that, they
realize that, hang on a minute, I

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could speak in a more intimate way.

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So weirdly, the technology
of an electric microphone.

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Made the more human.

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And it was certain people who
realized that and thought, I can

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work with this tool and understand
it and become an expert in it.

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And that's what they did.

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And of course, and then of course now we
wouldn't, you couldn't imagine, a vocal

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performance not being intimate or wow.

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Whoever wants to be 'cause of technology.

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Brad Frost: yeah,

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Brendan Dawes: So that's just one
example and there's loads like that.

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So it's nothing new.

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The whole AI thing.

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I just don't like reactionary opinions.

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It's not critical thinking.

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For me it's just extremism either way.

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Brad Frost: Yeah.

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Brendan Dawes: yeah.

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That's why I really resonated with what
you were saying in that video you did.

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Brad Frost: Yeah.

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I appreciate that.

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I think you're right when new things come
along and you said the word is curiosity

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to be able to be curious about something.

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Well, Also I think that what we've been
talking about with AI so specifically

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that I don't know was true with
previous generations of technologies.

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Whether it be that flash or just
advancements of the web or some other

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creative technology or music gear or
whatever it's like it is important.

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'cause there's a lot of like gross
shit built into the foundations of

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like how the stuff even came into

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Brendan Dawes: absolutely.

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Brad Frost: That is once again worth
acknowledging, and it's worth unpacking,

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those aspects of it should be rejected
and unequivocally condemned and we

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should figure out the ways to mitigate
the harms and offset all of that.

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But at the same time, it's it is here.

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And the fact that we could just kinda
pull some shit out of the ether and

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have it in front of us in order to
guide or facilitate this process.

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And that's just speaking creatively
that you're like talking about

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the real stuff of it's yeah, okay.

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Human eyes can only get so

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Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

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Brad Frost: at detecting certain things.

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And so if you like
supercharge this stuff in

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Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

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Brad Frost: office, like you're
gonna save a lot more people, , so,

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so you have to be able to live
in that nuanced, like gray area.

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But also, I've seen you in these different
programming languages, things give a

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guess at how many different languages
or like software tools, like we, we will

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set aside even like the physical world.

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Like a, get.

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Like how many of those things have
you learned, forgotten, touched

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ha has been on your computer and,

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Brendan Dawes: Yeah,

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Brad Frost: not been on your

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Brendan Dawes: I dunno.

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Yeah, 30, 40.

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I dunno.

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It's some of them, and by the
way, learned that's open for

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interpretation, but yeah, I dunno.

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30 or 40 or something.

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They come and go, and then you stick
to various ones because, some of

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them are just so flexible and now
they're made like all great languages.

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I, you know, I still
love, I love a text file.

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I think a text file is a
beautiful thing, right?

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So it's that.

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But the whole idea of Unix where you
can pipe a simple thing into another

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thing, you have this pipe command,
which is really how a lot of sort of

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node base like touch designer behind
me, the, how you'd link things up.

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It really comes from that
really that thinking of.

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It's just a thing that
makes texts go big, right?

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And then you pipe that into another
thing, so you think in a very modular way.

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So Unix really from
the off, what was that?

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Where you could pipe an output
into another input and keep going.

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And that is a very powerful concept.

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So I've always drifted to visual
software that allows me to do that.

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But the power, of course, is where
you're combining things that are

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command line and then maybe some C+
or, or JavaScripts or whatever it is.

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It's the power is in the
combinations of those things.

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And often my projects, so I've got, this
is just, but it wasn't ready as a prop

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by the way, this, I did this newspaper.

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So that's my GitHub repo
for my website, right?

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That's back on that, yeah.

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But then what I did.

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So this, I did this is like a 25th
anniversary broadsheet newspaper.

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I did.

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So I used my API on my website
to make a page for each project,

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but it's all very abstract.

236
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So these sculptures are made
algorithmically from the project title.

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And then it, I used a local LLM to
make a haiku for each project, and

238
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then it typographically screwed it up.

239
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But there's about five different programs
working together to come together

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to make that, and then even, I even
wrote a command line thing because

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it spat out these PDFs, but because.

242
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They had to be done in a certain way.

243
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So the print was, the margin
was on the right side.

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I then wanted to randomize it, but also
allow for it to be proper on the right

245
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page, if so I wrote then that there was
then a command line script to actually

246
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take all these PDFs I did and put
them in the right order, but randomly

247
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so all those things you know, that's
just an example of five or six pieces

248
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of software coming together to work.

249
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Make one thing, right?

250
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Yeah

251
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Brad Frost: it's, that's, it is just
so demonstrative of thi this moment

252
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because historically, you had to jump
into the fray to learn those five or

253
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I, here's my, my

254
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Brendan Dawes: yeah.

255
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Brad Frost: I was only showing this
earlier in, in that, that this is

256
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like what we're talking about I

257
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Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

258
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Brad Frost: bit now is ah, yes,
this thing flows into this thing.

259
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This thing flows into this thing and
this thing flows into this thing.

260
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But then around it now is just
this thing that just goes.

261
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I wanna do this make a newsletter
that rips this stuff down, does this

262
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stuff, randomizes it, reassembles
it in this way, chops it up, tears

263
00:14:45,820 --> 00:14:49,620
it apart again, and then sends
it to the printer and it will do

264
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Brendan Dawes: yeah,

265
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Brad Frost: it'll just do it.

266
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And you're like what?

267
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Okay.

268
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And it'll screw it up along the way.

269
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And that's where I think
like your deep knowledge of,

270
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Brendan Dawes: yeah.

271
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Brad Frost: being the closer you are
to those materials, you're able to work

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with them in a more sophisticated way.

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And I find that stuff with
what I'm do like web stuff.

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Like I'm able to speak the language a
little bit more and so it, it gets to

275
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the end result a little bit faster.

276
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But I notice myself.

277
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Attempting things that I wouldn't
have otherwise dreamed of,

278
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because it was off limits to me.

279
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I was like no I can't do that
type of backend development.

280
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I know enough to be dangerous,
but just even conceptually.

281
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Less of a fear thing and more of
the, there, there ain't no time for

282
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Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

283
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Brad Frost: I'm now there is

284
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just do it.

285
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Brendan Dawes: yeah.

286
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Amazing.

287
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You're just being more creative.

288
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You haven't got that fear as such, and
you do learn from those processes as well.

289
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You go, all right, that's how that works.

290
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Let me delve into that a bit
deeper on, and that's what you do.

291
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But you, like you said, you often have to,
if you are using AI and things, you often

292
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have to fix these things yourself because
you think Yeah that's not gonna work.

293
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And then, so you still
need some knowledge.

294
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For sure.

295
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Brad Frost: Yeah.

296
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But above all, and I think what
you're describing 'cause like that

297
00:16:05,610 --> 00:16:10,690
newspaper was that the fully formed
vision when you started the process?

298
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Or did it over the process of doing it

299
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Brendan Dawes: it came out.

300
00:16:15,615 --> 00:16:19,505
Yeah, no, it came out of oh there's
this service, the newspaper club,

301
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which they can print newspapers.

302
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So the idea came from that and
I just thought, I wanna do it.

303
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And it was 25 years last
year of having my website.

304
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So I did a few things.

305
00:16:31,655 --> 00:16:32,015
I did.

306
00:16:35,285 --> 00:16:39,515
Thing that I did, a plotter sold,
I sold quite a lot of those,

307
00:16:39,935 --> 00:16:42,995
but they were, you could buy one
and each one was unique to you.

308
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And it was made off a
20, a five by five grid.

309
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So it's 25.

310
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Yeah.

311
00:16:48,355 --> 00:16:51,265
But it generatively plotted these,
and they're always different.

312
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That's the point.

313
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So I did that, and then I thought
there's this newspaper thing, and

314
00:16:55,835 --> 00:17:01,215
I, I could do like this kind of look
back, but rather than just doing

315
00:17:01,215 --> 00:17:05,565
a, here's this project, I wanted to
create something new from a thing.

316
00:17:05,955 --> 00:17:11,975
I think that the thing is as well,
because my website runs on Kirby  and

317
00:17:11,975 --> 00:17:16,805
it already had a backend, API that
spits out JSON of every project.

318
00:17:16,805 --> 00:17:21,505
And I thought the data's there,
so you know, this beautiful thing

319
00:17:21,505 --> 00:17:25,075
of interpretability, you can
just glue these things together.

320
00:17:25,775 --> 00:17:29,195
JSON can talk to touch
designer and blah, blah, blah.

321
00:17:29,465 --> 00:17:33,390
So it's just, and then, and then it
grew Really, it grew from there's,

322
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,590
there was lots of different layouts
and now I wish I'd done other

323
00:17:36,590 --> 00:17:37,835
things with it, hey, it's there,

324
00:17:37,975 --> 00:17:38,395
Brad Frost: that's it.

325
00:17:38,485 --> 00:17:38,995
That's it.

326
00:17:38,995 --> 00:17:39,325
Yeah.

327
00:17:39,325 --> 00:17:41,125
It exists and it didn't before.

328
00:17:41,270 --> 00:17:41,560
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

329
00:17:41,725 --> 00:17:44,725
Brad Frost: and it's it really
is like here's input, here's

330
00:17:44,725 --> 00:17:46,345
this thing and this thing.

331
00:17:46,555 --> 00:17:51,205
It's what if we just take these
two objects and glue 'em together?

332
00:17:51,660 --> 00:17:52,770
Brendan Dawes: Because the thing is

333
00:17:52,855 --> 00:17:53,425
Brad Frost: we do?

334
00:17:53,685 --> 00:17:57,495
Brendan Dawes: web, that's a
website that, that's all from a web.

335
00:17:57,795 --> 00:18:00,255
That content is all from a website content

336
00:18:00,685 --> 00:18:01,015
Brad Frost: Yeah.

337
00:18:02,535 --> 00:18:04,245
Brendan Dawes: It only
exists 'cause it's a website.

338
00:18:04,315 --> 00:18:09,315
Brad Frost: the it's it's just like
demonstrating that true fluidity.

339
00:18:09,745 --> 00:18:13,735
That I think is evasive for
people to, to understand.

340
00:18:13,735 --> 00:18:18,805
In my neck of the woods, it work in the
realm of like design systems and stuff.

341
00:18:18,805 --> 00:18:24,290
And often thought of and operated as a
constraining function in a lot of ways.

342
00:18:24,290 --> 00:18:24,470
It,

343
00:18:24,475 --> 00:18:24,715
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

344
00:18:25,130 --> 00:18:29,285
Brad Frost: like but at the same time
it's like it the way that the kind of

345
00:18:29,285 --> 00:18:34,945
digital world has been built up, it
has led to this just very, again, this,

346
00:18:35,305 --> 00:18:38,275
these skills are atrophied or there's not

347
00:18:38,370 --> 00:18:38,610
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

348
00:18:40,045 --> 00:18:42,415
Brad Frost: to do that kind of dreaming.

349
00:18:42,775 --> 00:18:47,515
And so what we see is a bunch of people
is here comes this new technology

350
00:18:47,515 --> 00:18:51,105
that's taken away what people
have been doing with their hands,

351
00:18:51,105 --> 00:18:52,965
assembling these things together.

352
00:18:53,310 --> 00:18:53,850
Manually.

353
00:18:53,850 --> 00:18:59,670
And that's what that, that's what people
like think of as their creative gifts

354
00:19:00,330 --> 00:19:01,940
and that gets ripped away from them.

355
00:19:01,940 --> 00:19:02,150
And it

356
00:19:02,277 --> 00:19:02,567
Brendan Dawes: yeah,

357
00:19:03,032 --> 00:19:03,572
Brad Frost: Crisis.

358
00:19:03,572 --> 00:19:06,062
And it's it was never,
that was never your gift

359
00:19:06,127 --> 00:19:06,187
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

360
00:19:06,287 --> 00:19:06,647
Brad Frost: place.

361
00:19:06,647 --> 00:19:09,587
Like your your gift is your ability to

362
00:19:09,637 --> 00:19:10,357
Brendan Dawes: envision it.

363
00:19:10,357 --> 00:19:10,597
Yeah.

364
00:19:10,667 --> 00:19:11,657
Brad Frost: of say what if?

365
00:19:11,867 --> 00:19:12,347
Yeah.

366
00:19:12,367 --> 00:19:16,627
Brendan Dawes: You've always gotta
remember, no AI has ever woken up

367
00:19:16,627 --> 00:19:19,987
and said, I think I'll just stare
out the window for five minutes.

368
00:19:20,737 --> 00:19:22,612
No AI has ever said that ever.

369
00:19:23,677 --> 00:19:27,797
Because it can't, it doesn't even
know what a bloody window is, so it

370
00:19:27,797 --> 00:19:29,597
doesn't even know we exist, by the way.

371
00:19:29,927 --> 00:19:31,487
Doesn't even know the world exists,

372
00:19:31,567 --> 00:19:31,957
Brad Frost: yeah.

373
00:19:32,217 --> 00:19:34,617
Brendan Dawes: itself, I'm not
saying someone programmed it to

374
00:19:34,617 --> 00:19:36,567
think that I'm saying by itself.

375
00:19:36,867 --> 00:19:39,717
It is never woken up and
thought, I'll just daydream.

376
00:19:40,077 --> 00:19:42,057
So you've gotta hold
onto that thought, right?

377
00:19:42,907 --> 00:19:47,287
Brad Frost: If you had to tell some
of these people I've alluded to again,

378
00:19:47,287 --> 00:19:53,077
I've, I've spent a lot of time just,
sweating the details of the mechanics

379
00:19:53,112 --> 00:19:53,382
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

380
00:19:54,077 --> 00:19:55,427
Brad Frost: Of some of these things.

381
00:19:55,427 --> 00:20:00,762
That there's this, that it's the narrow
focus and that's where their worth and

382
00:20:00,762 --> 00:20:07,402
their value the expense of that sort of
broader like what advice you got for him.

383
00:20:08,837 --> 00:20:10,277
Brendan Dawes: I dunno
if I'm the right person.

384
00:20:10,307 --> 00:20:15,537
I'm coming at it from I'm not in the
the coalface, in a corporate system,

385
00:20:15,837 --> 00:20:16,127
Brad Frost: yeah.

386
00:20:16,177 --> 00:20:19,527
Brendan Dawes: I, that's not the
world I inhabit, so I don't, I

387
00:20:19,527 --> 00:20:23,087
wouldn't deem to give them any kind
of, advice from that point of view.

388
00:20:23,277 --> 00:20:26,967
We might talk about Brian Eno in a
bit, but in that film, the, one of

389
00:20:26,967 --> 00:20:31,527
the lines that resonated with me was
when he was working with synthesizers

390
00:20:31,527 --> 00:20:35,217
in the early days, he realized when
he was twiddling knobs and things,

391
00:20:35,457 --> 00:20:36,457
'cause he says himself, he can't.

392
00:20:36,597 --> 00:20:36,887
Brad Frost: Yeah.

393
00:20:37,077 --> 00:20:39,657
Brendan Dawes: Boards or
anything, you can't read music

394
00:20:40,017 --> 00:20:41,517
or you can twiddle knobs, right?

395
00:20:42,117 --> 00:20:46,767
And he said, I realized it was less
about skill and more about judgment.

396
00:20:47,817 --> 00:20:49,707
And I thought, hallelujah.

397
00:20:49,757 --> 00:20:50,327
That's it.

398
00:20:50,377 --> 00:20:53,867
When you build like a generative system
and it's doing its thing, you think, I've

399
00:20:53,867 --> 00:20:57,347
just plugged that into there and it's, and
then it does this amazing thing, right?

400
00:20:57,707 --> 00:21:01,187
So you, there's a maybe you think
that's a bit of, 'cause I can bang

401
00:21:01,187 --> 00:21:05,177
out this thing I've got behind me
now I can bang out a million posters

402
00:21:05,567 --> 00:21:06,917
while we're sat here if you want.

403
00:21:07,367 --> 00:21:07,697
Brad Frost: Yep.

404
00:21:09,187 --> 00:21:11,017
Brendan Dawes: but then you,
but then there's, they're

405
00:21:11,017 --> 00:21:12,757
not a million great posters.

406
00:21:13,447 --> 00:21:18,397
There's like maybe two, so then
I'm using my judgment, my taste.

407
00:21:19,387 --> 00:21:22,057
So I think that is the
area we're moving into.

408
00:21:22,177 --> 00:21:25,327
It's about curation, it's about
judgment, it's about taste.

409
00:21:25,957 --> 00:21:30,877
I think there will always be
skills needed, of course, but

410
00:21:30,877 --> 00:21:35,137
a lot of that stuff is gonna be
increasingly automated for sure.

411
00:21:35,527 --> 00:21:36,067
So

412
00:21:36,617 --> 00:21:37,007
Brad Frost: Yeah.

413
00:21:37,537 --> 00:21:39,847
Brendan Dawes: yeah you're gonna
need to have to look at what you're

414
00:21:39,847 --> 00:21:41,347
doing in a more holistic way.

415
00:21:41,347 --> 00:21:48,707
And like you said, Brad, maybe that,
the chaing of the, the thing is not, the

416
00:21:48,707 --> 00:21:50,897
thing, it's like more of the vision thing.

417
00:21:51,417 --> 00:21:53,927
But it's a difficult look, it's
a difficult one, I'm someone who

418
00:21:53,927 --> 00:21:59,527
loves beautifully made shoes,
and which takes, weeks, to make.

419
00:21:59,927 --> 00:22:05,057
And I like them because of the craft
that goes into them, the human crafts,

420
00:22:05,057 --> 00:22:09,917
so I'm a kind of like contradiction,
with the kind of things that I love.

421
00:22:10,507 --> 00:22:12,547
But right now no AI is gonna make.

422
00:22:13,357 --> 00:22:13,567
Yeah.

423
00:22:13,567 --> 00:22:16,117
And the thing is, shoes have
been automated, aren't they?

424
00:22:16,297 --> 00:22:17,737
Most shoes are made

425
00:22:18,112 --> 00:22:18,602
Brad Frost: totally,

426
00:22:18,757 --> 00:22:21,577
Brendan Dawes: program, but
there's still a place I can go.

427
00:22:22,027 --> 00:22:26,817
If you want to pay the money, you can
get, shoes that are made in the old way.

428
00:22:27,387 --> 00:22:27,607
Brad Frost: Yep.

429
00:22:27,787 --> 00:22:30,477
Brendan Dawes: so maybe it'll move
to more luxury, and you go, or this

430
00:22:30,477 --> 00:22:33,997
website's been beautifully handmade,
and it's like a niche thing, yeah,

431
00:22:34,237 --> 00:22:34,527
Brad Frost: Yeah.

432
00:22:34,807 --> 00:22:36,347
I, yeah and in many respects that's

433
00:22:36,492 --> 00:22:36,822
Brendan Dawes: Yeah,

434
00:22:37,087 --> 00:22:39,507
Brad Frost: But at the same time
it could be none of those things.

435
00:22:39,507 --> 00:22:39,927
It could be

436
00:22:40,034 --> 00:22:40,324
Brendan Dawes: yeah,

437
00:22:40,559 --> 00:22:42,899
Brad Frost: Things in all
of those things all at once.

438
00:22:42,964 --> 00:22:43,254
Brendan Dawes: yeah,

439
00:22:43,289 --> 00:22:44,989
Brad Frost: I think that's
that's the struggle.

440
00:22:44,989 --> 00:22:48,129
I've been having this conversation
so often where it's like we're

441
00:22:48,129 --> 00:22:52,209
used to, I think making these kind
of linear jumps to things, right?

442
00:22:52,239 --> 00:22:52,809
Oh, here's

443
00:22:53,044 --> 00:22:53,334
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

444
00:22:53,709 --> 00:22:58,239
Brad Frost: Steve Jobs killed Flash
no longer, but we're gonna migrate

445
00:22:58,239 --> 00:23:03,539
into this canvas or just good old
fashioned web standards or, I, had

446
00:23:03,539 --> 00:23:05,339
this car or traded it in for a new

447
00:23:05,419 --> 00:23:05,709
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

448
00:23:05,819 --> 00:23:09,659
Brad Frost: oh, I switched from
an Android phone to an iPhone, ed.

449
00:23:10,079 --> 00:23:13,419
That, that's the kinds of
things that I think that our

450
00:23:13,419 --> 00:23:16,299
heads we're able to get around.

451
00:23:16,329 --> 00:23:17,529
Like we get our heads

452
00:23:17,635 --> 00:23:18,055
Brendan Dawes: Mm-hmm.

453
00:23:18,265 --> 00:23:20,622
Brad Frost: Type of advancement, right?

454
00:23:20,652 --> 00:23:22,092
The faster horses I should

455
00:23:22,382 --> 00:23:22,672
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

456
00:23:23,022 --> 00:23:28,322
Brad Frost: And it's really this idea
of crossing a threshold into going no,

457
00:23:28,322 --> 00:23:31,162
this  isn't going from one to another one.

458
00:23:31,162 --> 00:23:34,642
This is going from a one to a many thing.

459
00:23:35,122 --> 00:23:38,722
And that's the thing that I think
is it's still sinking in for myself

460
00:23:38,772 --> 00:23:41,772
and certainly I think for all of
us that it's just wait a minute.

461
00:23:41,772 --> 00:23:47,512
Like I could, quite literally say,
I want to make a thing about Brendan

462
00:23:47,642 --> 00:23:51,692
Dawes and I want you to create this as.

463
00:23:52,487 --> 00:23:53,867
movie, a play,

464
00:23:53,987 --> 00:23:54,277
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

465
00:23:54,797 --> 00:23:58,952
Brad Frost: a website, a, a
printed piece, like a poster a, a

466
00:23:58,952 --> 00:24:03,687
series of images, a flip book, a
matchbook a and it, and you can do

467
00:24:03,947 --> 00:24:04,237
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

468
00:24:04,617 --> 00:24:05,367
Brad Frost: And you can do it.

469
00:24:05,417 --> 00:24:08,267
That still is sinking
in for me personally.

470
00:24:08,297 --> 00:24:12,157
'cause I'm just like I don't, and like
you said with the generative like posters,

471
00:24:12,157 --> 00:24:13,867
it's like, is any of that gonna be good?

472
00:24:13,867 --> 00:24:14,827
The answer is no,

473
00:24:15,132 --> 00:24:15,402
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

474
00:24:15,547 --> 00:24:15,967
Brad Frost: not.

475
00:24:15,967 --> 00:24:19,557
But from that stance of the creative
infinite of just going like I

476
00:24:19,557 --> 00:24:24,927
never thought that I would be
able to go near writing an opera.

477
00:24:25,137 --> 00:24:25,467
No.

478
00:24:25,647 --> 00:24:26,277
And I'm not going

479
00:24:26,352 --> 00:24:30,337
By the way, but it's but to, but
to even just imagine that it's

480
00:24:30,337 --> 00:24:36,757
oh, I now like actually have
more of a. Chance at doing that.

481
00:24:36,757 --> 00:24:38,527
If that was something that was

482
00:24:38,632 --> 00:24:39,832
Interesting to me

483
00:24:39,882 --> 00:24:39,892
Brendan Dawes: yeah,

484
00:24:40,072 --> 00:24:44,242
Brad Frost: I could pursue that in a
way that I don't know if I would be able

485
00:24:44,382 --> 00:24:44,712
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

486
00:24:44,712 --> 00:24:44,922
I,

487
00:24:45,472 --> 00:24:46,762
Brad Frost: It's very fascinating.

488
00:24:47,002 --> 00:24:49,192
Brendan Dawes: One of the things you
have to watch out for with any of this

489
00:24:49,192 --> 00:24:54,142
stuff is that it's, you gotta remember,
that it's averaging everything out.

490
00:24:55,522 --> 00:24:56,722
That's how it works.

491
00:24:57,062 --> 00:25:00,812
It gets all this input, all
this mass massive data, and

492
00:25:00,812 --> 00:25:02,192
then it creates an average.

493
00:25:02,552 --> 00:25:06,512
So the stuff that it's making,
whether it's writing or making,

494
00:25:06,527 --> 00:25:06,942
Brad Frost: average.

495
00:25:07,002 --> 00:25:08,072
Brendan Dawes: It's just average.

496
00:25:08,372 --> 00:25:11,862
It's not gonna, that said, the
thing I clinging onto is, that

497
00:25:11,892 --> 00:25:17,562
when Alpha go beat Lisa doll the Go
Champion, a few years ago now, and

498
00:25:17,562 --> 00:25:19,932
it beat him four out of five times.

499
00:25:19,982 --> 00:25:21,272
The other one was a draw.

500
00:25:21,702 --> 00:25:26,022
So what happened was there was this move,
37, I think it was in one of the games.

501
00:25:26,022 --> 00:25:28,742
And it was a move that was so ridiculous.

502
00:25:29,492 --> 00:25:31,322
No human being would've done it.

503
00:25:31,997 --> 00:25:36,737
And it laid it down and it, and everyone
was like, what the hell this is crazy.

504
00:25:37,207 --> 00:25:38,137
And it won the game.

505
00:25:38,137 --> 00:25:40,657
And so that move is now
called the divine move.

506
00:25:40,707 --> 00:25:46,347
That's why I, where I think the promise of
all this is things like that to suddenly

507
00:25:46,347 --> 00:25:50,317
go, wha bam here's something new, right?

508
00:25:50,977 --> 00:25:55,017
It's not that it beat him, it was the
fact that it threw this move down.

509
00:25:55,467 --> 00:25:59,757
And so one of the commentators said, maybe
that is a promise as this technology,

510
00:25:59,757 --> 00:26:01,377
maybe it can show us something new.

511
00:26:01,377 --> 00:26:05,167
I think he said, that's quite exciting
along with all the, the problems.

512
00:26:05,217 --> 00:26:09,467
The thing that really scared me after
that, it was Alpha zero it was called.

513
00:26:09,467 --> 00:26:13,337
So AlphaGo was trained on
thousands of games, right?

514
00:26:14,087 --> 00:26:20,387
Alpha Zero was given the rules
and it became the best player

515
00:26:20,387 --> 00:26:22,947
of alpha of Go in 48 hours.

516
00:26:22,947 --> 00:26:23,367
It was just

517
00:26:23,492 --> 00:26:23,782
Brad Frost: Yeah,

518
00:26:23,787 --> 00:26:24,117
Brendan Dawes: rules.

519
00:26:24,297 --> 00:26:26,187
It wasn't trained on any games.

520
00:26:26,637 --> 00:26:29,447
That's and no one's talking
about that's war games level.

521
00:26:29,927 --> 00:26:30,497
It just went.

522
00:26:30,897 --> 00:26:31,347
Brad Frost: Yeah.

523
00:26:32,637 --> 00:26:33,027
Yep.

524
00:26:33,217 --> 00:26:38,537
And that's the big divide between all of
the paradigm shifts before it, the faster

525
00:26:38,722 --> 00:26:40,312
Into automobiles, right?

526
00:26:40,312 --> 00:26:41,842
You had to slog through the

527
00:26:42,007 --> 00:26:43,927
And put all of that infrastructure in

528
00:26:44,167 --> 00:26:46,357
That takes generations.

529
00:26:46,357 --> 00:26:49,877
And there's, there is, obviously
the first time somebody saw

530
00:26:49,877 --> 00:26:51,557
Model T I'm sure that their minds

531
00:26:51,587 --> 00:26:51,877
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

532
00:26:52,042 --> 00:26:52,402
Yeah.

533
00:26:52,667 --> 00:26:53,717
Brad Frost: and all of that stuff.

534
00:26:53,717 --> 00:26:58,477
But then the time that person saw
that model for the first time to the

535
00:26:58,477 --> 00:27:05,127
time that it like really shifted the
how people live their lives there's

536
00:27:05,127 --> 00:27:06,777
some pretty serious time there.

537
00:27:06,962 --> 00:27:07,262
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

538
00:27:07,467 --> 00:27:12,147
Brad Frost: talking about that now
that we're unmoored from the world of

539
00:27:12,377 --> 00:27:12,797
Brendan Dawes: Mm-hmm.

540
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:17,410
Brad Frost: And this stuff can
just progress on its own in this,

541
00:27:17,450 --> 00:27:17,740
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

542
00:27:18,085 --> 00:27:21,695
Brad Frost: Scarily fast paced
like that, that I share that

543
00:27:21,950 --> 00:27:22,240
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

544
00:27:22,355 --> 00:27:23,705
Brad Frost: you, where
you're like, wait a minute.

545
00:27:23,885 --> 00:27:24,215
Like

546
00:27:24,310 --> 00:27:24,600
Brendan Dawes: Whoa.

547
00:27:24,725 --> 00:27:26,825
Brad Frost: the time, by
the time we're getting

548
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:27,210
Brendan Dawes: Yeah,

549
00:27:27,300 --> 00:27:28,050
Brad Frost: Staring out that

550
00:27:28,097 --> 00:27:28,432
Brendan Dawes: yeah, Yeah.

551
00:27:28,502 --> 00:27:31,382
Brad Frost: for five minutes,
that thing just quadrupled.

552
00:27:31,432 --> 00:27:33,607
It's freaking, it,

553
00:27:33,672 --> 00:27:34,062
Brendan Dawes: know.

554
00:27:34,222 --> 00:27:35,062
Brad Frost: extinguished

555
00:27:35,262 --> 00:27:35,622
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

556
00:27:35,952 --> 00:27:36,642
It's crazy.

557
00:27:36,642 --> 00:27:37,812
Yeah, I know.

558
00:27:39,992 --> 00:27:43,102
Brad Frost: But I also think though
this comes back to what you're

559
00:27:43,102 --> 00:27:46,402
describing as far as like taste
and judgment and all of that stuff.

560
00:27:46,452 --> 00:27:51,182
We need to collectively as a society
get to the what is our judgment

561
00:27:51,757 --> 00:27:52,047
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

562
00:27:52,777 --> 00:27:54,962
Brad Frost: on like that kind of stuff.

563
00:27:54,977 --> 00:28:05,027
And that frankly, like ultimately this
stuff can only impact society at the

564
00:28:05,027 --> 00:28:11,287
pace that our brains and machinery
can do something with with it.

565
00:28:11,287 --> 00:28:15,277
In certain realms you could just see
it like light years ahead, but then in

566
00:28:15,277 --> 00:28:20,857
other realms, like from what's it like
enters back into the world of atoms

567
00:28:21,067 --> 00:28:28,257
or the world of human systems, let's
say that's, that those are the brakes.

568
00:28:28,887 --> 00:28:29,577
Perhaps.

569
00:28:29,847 --> 00:28:30,327
Who the fuck

570
00:28:30,557 --> 00:28:30,887
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

571
00:28:31,317 --> 00:28:31,617
No.

572
00:28:31,617 --> 00:28:34,247
It's it never really pans out
how you think, you know it.

573
00:28:34,307 --> 00:28:39,967
If you look at, George Orwell wrote
about obviously the We Burning books

574
00:28:39,967 --> 00:28:44,227
or books would be banned, but that it
was more the Als Huxley model, that

575
00:28:44,947 --> 00:28:46,387
it wasn't, the books were banned.

576
00:28:46,417 --> 00:28:47,557
No one wanted to read.

577
00:28:48,977 --> 00:28:49,307
Brad Frost: yep,

578
00:28:49,627 --> 00:28:50,287
Brendan Dawes: That was the thing.

579
00:28:50,287 --> 00:28:52,117
It wasn't the government banned books.

580
00:28:52,387 --> 00:28:54,187
People just didn't wanna read anymore.

581
00:28:54,607 --> 00:28:58,322
And that's what's coming to pass,
depending on what survey you read.

582
00:28:58,412 --> 00:29:01,562
But, and, and the cameras
aren't the government cameras.

583
00:29:02,132 --> 00:29:04,112
We are our own surveillance.

584
00:29:04,167 --> 00:29:07,817
That's the, so it's, it depends
which science fiction books you

585
00:29:07,817 --> 00:29:09,677
read is which way it's gonna go.

586
00:29:10,947 --> 00:29:13,257
It's not laid out, in
concrete, that's for sure.

587
00:29:14,767 --> 00:29:15,187
Brad Frost: it does it.

588
00:29:15,242 --> 00:29:20,257
What you're describing there and like
what I'm seeing with all of this and

589
00:29:20,257 --> 00:29:24,007
I've described it already, I think a
couple ties of this kind of like atrophy

590
00:29:24,007 --> 00:29:32,367
of creativity like, bye Bob's an art
teacher and, went to just kinda whatever

591
00:29:32,397 --> 00:29:34,707
liberal arts college kind of thing.

592
00:29:34,737 --> 00:29:37,587
And that stuff has been so devalued for so

593
00:29:37,762 --> 00:29:40,842
Across society in general and
certainly in America, but you

594
00:29:40,862 --> 00:29:41,152
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

595
00:29:41,292 --> 00:29:42,432
Brad Frost: and lots of places, right?

596
00:29:42,882 --> 00:29:45,602
It's like we try to
sneak that a into stem.

597
00:29:45,602 --> 00:29:47,192
It's oh we'll turn it into steam.

598
00:29:47,192 --> 00:29:49,832
And it's it works half
the time, but not really.

599
00:29:49,832 --> 00:29:54,832
It's and you get at what you're picking at
here and what you've said a couple times

600
00:29:54,832 --> 00:30:00,762
already, which is just, freaking books and
philosophy and expression and goodness and

601
00:30:01,112 --> 00:30:01,402
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

602
00:30:01,452 --> 00:30:04,392
Brad Frost: aesthetics and
it just what's it all for?

603
00:30:04,452 --> 00:30:12,022
And I think that there's just been so much
of an overpowering desire to focus on the

604
00:30:12,022 --> 00:30:15,142
machinery that runs an economy, right?

605
00:30:15,142 --> 00:30:17,482
That it's just what's it all for?

606
00:30:17,542 --> 00:30:18,562
What's it all for?

607
00:30:18,562 --> 00:30:19,762
And it's absolutely.

608
00:30:20,602 --> 00:30:26,242
Positively possible to create
the machine that sure does.

609
00:30:26,242 --> 00:30:30,252
All of that mechanical stuff that,
makes the line go up into the

610
00:30:30,407 --> 00:30:30,767
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

611
00:30:31,122 --> 00:30:35,682
Brad Frost: while also taking care of
people and while also like delivering

612
00:30:35,862 --> 00:30:37,992
beauty and goodness and all of that.

613
00:30:37,992 --> 00:30:43,262
I fundamentally reject any
inkling of oh it has to be this

614
00:30:43,262 --> 00:30:45,032
one or the other kind of thing.

615
00:30:45,352 --> 00:30:45,642
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

616
00:30:45,742 --> 00:30:50,682
Brad Frost: I don't know as the
mechanics again is going down to zero.

617
00:30:50,732 --> 00:30:55,982
My hope is that it opens the door
for more of us to reconnect with the

618
00:30:55,982 --> 00:31:00,912
humanities with arts, with expression,
with like with, yeah, who is it?

619
00:31:00,912 --> 00:31:02,052
Is it Milton Keys?

620
00:31:02,142 --> 00:31:04,482
Like some, an economists like back in like

621
00:31:04,537 --> 00:31:06,752
The turn of like the
industrial revolution.

622
00:31:06,752 --> 00:31:11,252
It's ah, yes, we're all gonna be
sitting here with 90% more free time

623
00:31:11,407 --> 00:31:11,707
Brendan Dawes: Never.

624
00:31:11,912 --> 00:31:12,662
Brad Frost: and we are going

625
00:31:12,667 --> 00:31:12,967
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

626
00:31:12,967 --> 00:31:13,237
Yeah.

627
00:31:13,502 --> 00:31:17,582
Brad Frost: yeah, and it did pan out, but
we're in, we're at another one of those

628
00:31:17,882 --> 00:31:18,172
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

629
00:31:18,182 --> 00:31:21,722
Brad Frost: And again, there's
nothing like technically stopping

630
00:31:21,722 --> 00:31:24,152
that from actually being the case.

631
00:31:24,152 --> 00:31:29,392
But the question is how do we create the
conditions by which we have a machine

632
00:31:29,452 --> 00:31:33,802
that just prints money and takes care of
everybody and then we're able to like,

633
00:31:34,107 --> 00:31:34,557
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

634
00:31:34,827 --> 00:31:35,307
This is the,

635
00:31:35,427 --> 00:31:35,847
Brad Frost: do all of

636
00:31:36,122 --> 00:31:38,462
Brendan Dawes: it may come down
to universal income and all

637
00:31:38,462 --> 00:31:40,252
those discussions and, yeah.

638
00:31:40,252 --> 00:31:42,852
You need to, rip it all up
and start again, really.

639
00:31:43,312 --> 00:31:47,202
But with capitalism is such a huge force.

640
00:31:47,802 --> 00:31:49,062
That's the system we're in.

641
00:31:49,612 --> 00:31:53,302
It, and we've seen how quickly
it can collapse very quickly.

642
00:31:53,872 --> 00:31:57,202
There wasn't many things nice about
COVID, but what was surprising to

643
00:31:57,202 --> 00:32:00,832
many was we didn't all go out in the
street and start killing each other.

644
00:32:01,132 --> 00:32:02,452
We actually did the opposite.

645
00:32:02,512 --> 00:32:03,772
We all helped each other.

646
00:32:03,917 --> 00:32:04,157
Brad Frost: Yep,

647
00:32:04,212 --> 00:32:05,862
Brendan Dawes: There was lots
of commentators at the time.

648
00:32:05,862 --> 00:32:07,362
We were like, oh, this
is gonna be terrible.

649
00:32:07,542 --> 00:32:09,042
And actually the opposite happened.

650
00:32:09,042 --> 00:32:10,512
It was like, oh, hang on.

651
00:32:10,512 --> 00:32:11,592
People are helping each other.

652
00:32:11,622 --> 00:32:12,402
This is amazing.

653
00:32:12,852 --> 00:32:14,412
So it can happen.

654
00:32:14,712 --> 00:32:17,982
But and then of course we
just went back to how it was

655
00:32:18,252 --> 00:32:18,732
Brad Frost: yeah.

656
00:32:18,837 --> 00:32:20,997
At the end of the day,
human nature is human

657
00:32:21,002 --> 00:32:21,362
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

658
00:32:21,537 --> 00:32:25,647
Brad Frost: and we're gonna learn
and continue learning the hard ways

659
00:32:25,742 --> 00:32:26,162
Brendan Dawes: exactly.

660
00:32:26,447 --> 00:32:26,737
Yeah.

661
00:32:26,757 --> 00:32:28,617
Brad Frost: that will always exist.

662
00:32:28,617 --> 00:32:37,427
But my hope is that there will
be more room for us to at least

663
00:32:37,477 --> 00:32:43,917
contemplate a world where not everybody
struggling as, as hard as they are.

664
00:32:43,917 --> 00:32:44,817
And I think that you're right.

665
00:32:44,817 --> 00:32:44,997
Yeah.

666
00:32:45,027 --> 00:32:47,887
Like things like, universal
basic income and like other

667
00:32:47,887 --> 00:32:48,907
tactics and stuff like that.

668
00:32:48,907 --> 00:32:50,447
But also just like from like a job

669
00:32:50,512 --> 00:32:50,802
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

670
00:32:51,002 --> 00:32:51,812
Brad Frost: Perspective.

671
00:32:51,812 --> 00:32:53,762
There is great book called Bullshit Jobs.

672
00:32:53,887 --> 00:32:54,367
Brendan Dawes: No,

673
00:32:54,662 --> 00:32:55,202
Brad Frost: heard of this?

674
00:32:55,262 --> 00:32:55,652
Awesome.

675
00:32:55,742 --> 00:32:56,402
Fantastic.

676
00:32:56,612 --> 00:32:59,132
And the definition of
bullshit job is like.

677
00:33:00,227 --> 00:33:04,127
A job that the person
performing that job describes as

678
00:33:04,267 --> 00:33:04,657
Brendan Dawes: right?

679
00:33:04,907 --> 00:33:05,327
Brad Frost: meaning

680
00:33:05,377 --> 00:33:05,587
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

681
00:33:05,747 --> 00:33:06,917
Brad Frost: this job should not

682
00:33:06,952 --> 00:33:07,242
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

683
00:33:07,247 --> 00:33:07,687
Yeah.

684
00:33:07,847 --> 00:33:10,717
Brad Frost: is, this is drudgery,
this is the bureaucrat, the person

685
00:33:10,717 --> 00:33:15,247
who is processing whether or not
someone should receive welfare or not.

686
00:33:16,417 --> 00:33:22,417
they're like, if, I wasn't in their
way, that would actually create the

687
00:33:22,417 --> 00:33:27,277
conditions by which anybody that was
asking for that extra relief would

688
00:33:27,542 --> 00:33:33,402
And so it's like my job is actually
preventing better outcomes from

689
00:33:33,527 --> 00:33:33,817
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

690
00:33:34,072 --> 00:33:38,042
Brad Frost: And I think that there's a
whole lot of that so much of the stuff

691
00:33:38,042 --> 00:33:42,772
that I witness even in and around like
the creative field, but a lot of times

692
00:33:42,822 --> 00:33:48,002
the creative field through a lens of
a big machine, there's so much room

693
00:33:48,722 --> 00:33:56,502
just not have it feel like such a damn
slog, how can you inject a bit of joy,

694
00:33:56,502 --> 00:34:02,102
inject a bit of fun, inject a bit of
dreaming of imagination, of humanity.

695
00:34:02,102 --> 00:34:05,092
Like I've got like a bass guitar
in my background here, right?

696
00:34:05,302 --> 00:34:09,082
I've worked with clients who've worked
with each other for years, and they

697
00:34:09,082 --> 00:34:13,492
like get on a call with me like an
outsider, and they're like, oh, like

698
00:34:13,642 --> 00:34:15,352
that's a nice Rickenbacker  bass.

699
00:34:15,742 --> 00:34:17,092
And then I'm like, oh, you play.

700
00:34:17,092 --> 00:34:20,092
And then they're, the colleagues are
like, oh, I didn't know you played.

701
00:34:20,432 --> 00:34:21,562
And and it's just it's a

702
00:34:22,027 --> 00:34:22,317
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

703
00:34:22,612 --> 00:34:24,352
Brad Frost: And it's and
it's because we're busy.

704
00:34:24,352 --> 00:34:24,892
We're busy,

705
00:34:24,977 --> 00:34:25,267
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

706
00:34:25,312 --> 00:34:26,002
Brad Frost: these things.

707
00:34:26,002 --> 00:34:27,442
Look at my hands, they're busy.

708
00:34:27,442 --> 00:34:29,092
Look at the toil, look at all of that.

709
00:34:29,092 --> 00:34:30,132
And it's just man.

710
00:34:30,232 --> 00:34:30,592
Might it

711
00:34:30,757 --> 00:34:31,047
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

712
00:34:31,522 --> 00:34:32,632
Brad Frost: if we just like.

713
00:34:33,832 --> 00:34:37,692
Just brought, just even move
that, turn that knob up,

714
00:34:38,402 --> 00:34:39,077
twiddle that knob, Brian Eno,

715
00:34:39,087 --> 00:34:39,927
Brendan Dawes: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

716
00:34:40,102 --> 00:34:41,032
Brad Frost: like, you know, like

717
00:34:41,032 --> 00:34:42,802
5% more.

718
00:34:43,162 --> 00:34:47,712
Just inject a little bit of pulse,
inject, inject a little bit of humanity,

719
00:34:47,872 --> 00:34:48,112
Brendan Dawes: Absolutely.

720
00:34:48,132 --> 00:34:51,482
Brad Frost: like back into the
equation and more time on our hands.

721
00:34:52,522 --> 00:34:52,812
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

722
00:34:53,712 --> 00:34:54,727
That's the dream.

723
00:34:54,902 --> 00:34:55,352
Brad Frost: do it.

724
00:34:55,747 --> 00:34:55,757
Brendan Dawes: Yeah,

725
00:34:56,252 --> 00:34:56,762
Brad Frost: Yeah.

726
00:34:57,842 --> 00:34:59,192
We'll see how it pans out.

727
00:34:59,192 --> 00:35:02,547
But it's I we've been doing some really
cool stuff and like just trying to

728
00:35:02,547 --> 00:35:06,647
build like more community and stuff and
just like create more space for that.

729
00:35:06,647 --> 00:35:10,657
Just just as an extension of just
trying to, it's hey, we're all gonna

730
00:35:10,707 --> 00:35:14,427
do some stuff that's like useful,
like for your job, but then we're

731
00:35:14,427 --> 00:35:16,287
also gonna talk about, pets and

732
00:35:16,597 --> 00:35:16,697
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

733
00:35:16,782 --> 00:35:18,102
Brad Frost: funny stuff and movies

734
00:35:18,317 --> 00:35:18,677
Brendan Dawes: Brilliant.

735
00:35:18,702 --> 00:35:19,332
Brad Frost: the rest of it.

736
00:35:19,337 --> 00:35:19,487
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

737
00:35:19,572 --> 00:35:21,882
Brad Frost: it's just,
yeah, it's a it's totally

738
00:35:22,307 --> 00:35:22,577
Brendan Dawes: Cool.

739
00:35:22,577 --> 00:35:23,357
Being human.

740
00:35:23,382 --> 00:35:24,732
Brad Frost: all of this is possible.

741
00:35:25,157 --> 00:35:26,417
Brendan Dawes: Being human basically.

742
00:35:26,717 --> 00:35:27,017
Yeah,

743
00:35:27,162 --> 00:35:29,092
Brad Frost: So can I tell
like the, Eno, story?

744
00:35:30,133 --> 00:35:32,713
' my wife and I were watching this,
I've been trying to watch it

745
00:35:32,713 --> 00:35:36,123
forever and I'm like, this damn
movie, like it's, I can't just

746
00:35:36,393 --> 00:35:36,723
Brendan Dawes: Yeah

747
00:35:36,833 --> 00:35:39,803
Brad Frost: ah, it's like these
screenings and like these theaters

748
00:35:39,803 --> 00:35:41,513
and these cities that I don't live in.

749
00:35:41,513 --> 00:35:42,773
I'm in Pittsburgh . And I'm like, ah.

750
00:35:43,673 --> 00:35:47,383
And so it like finally popped up
where oh yeah, I could rent it.

751
00:35:47,403 --> 00:35:52,623
So my wife and I were watching
it and and just incredible.

752
00:35:52,653 --> 00:35:54,033
Just utterly incredible.

753
00:35:54,033 --> 00:35:57,583
And it's just, hitting
all of my boxes and stuff.

754
00:35:57,583 --> 00:36:01,453
So I'm just like freaking bawling the end.

755
00:36:02,518 --> 00:36:03,778
It's yeah, directed.

756
00:36:03,808 --> 00:36:07,588
Directed by Gary and then there's this
and then I can't remember what your

757
00:36:07,588 --> 00:36:10,563
credit was, but it's I saw your name jump
out on the screen and I like screamed

758
00:36:10,563 --> 00:36:10,953
Brendan Dawes: yeah,

759
00:36:12,478 --> 00:36:12,808
Brad Frost: It's like, what?

760
00:36:13,653 --> 00:36:14,163
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

761
00:36:14,943 --> 00:36:15,213
Yeah.

762
00:36:15,243 --> 00:36:15,993
I, I was,

763
00:36:16,018 --> 00:36:17,938
Brad Frost: That is so cool.

764
00:36:18,346 --> 00:36:20,836
Brendan Dawes: yeah, it was like
five years of my life, really.

765
00:36:20,896 --> 00:36:23,476
And it's still, me and Gary have
a company off the back of that

766
00:36:23,476 --> 00:36:26,496
now, and we're working on loads
of really amazing projects.

767
00:36:26,496 --> 00:36:32,166
But yeah, it was, I was I did, I
basically made the software that,

768
00:36:32,286 --> 00:36:33,966
so the film is different every time.

769
00:36:34,326 --> 00:36:37,716
And we did that, we started it in 2019.

770
00:36:38,506 --> 00:36:41,516
I've known Gary since 2007.

771
00:36:41,516 --> 00:36:43,466
I met him at, South by Southwest.

772
00:36:43,856 --> 00:36:49,056
We were on a panel together and through
a mutual friend and, became friends

773
00:36:49,056 --> 00:36:50,496
and we always wanted to work together.

774
00:36:51,561 --> 00:36:56,231
And we, discussed various things over
the years, but I think in 2019 he

775
00:36:56,231 --> 00:37:01,781
emailed me to say, I've got this idea
for a film that is never the same twice.

776
00:37:01,781 --> 00:37:04,151
It had nothing to do with Brian
Eno, by the way, at this point.

777
00:37:05,021 --> 00:37:07,141
And he said, do you think it's possible?

778
00:37:07,141 --> 00:37:11,181
And I said yeah, don't
know how, but let's try it.

779
00:37:11,901 --> 00:37:15,221
So we used it just on the
film about Dieter Rams, the

780
00:37:15,221 --> 00:37:17,391
industrial designer, legend and

781
00:37:17,706 --> 00:37:18,256
Brad Frost: Which is

782
00:37:18,331 --> 00:37:18,811
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

783
00:37:19,171 --> 00:37:20,851
Bit more serious vibe on that one.

784
00:37:20,851 --> 00:37:24,201
So we were using that footage
and trying to make a system

785
00:37:24,201 --> 00:37:27,061
that, made a film dynamically.

786
00:37:28,321 --> 00:37:31,771
And then, and of course Brian Eno had
done the soundtrack for that movie.

787
00:37:31,771 --> 00:37:34,651
So Gary had gone to Brian and said.

788
00:37:35,236 --> 00:37:36,226
Can we do a documentary?

789
00:37:36,226 --> 00:37:39,106
No one's done a proper full
feature length documentary.

790
00:37:39,106 --> 00:37:40,396
Come, can I do one on you?

791
00:37:40,456 --> 00:37:42,466
And he just said, no, right?

792
00:37:42,526 --> 00:37:45,406
He said, I'm not, he
said, I'm not interested.

793
00:37:45,486 --> 00:37:47,976
I don't wanna talk about the
past, or, that kinda stuff.

794
00:37:48,426 --> 00:37:53,526
So Gary went away and then he came
to me and with this idea, and then as

795
00:37:53,526 --> 00:37:59,356
we were developing it, Gary said, I
want to take this to Eno and show him

796
00:37:59,356 --> 00:38:00,916
and see if he'll do the documentary.

797
00:38:00,916 --> 00:38:06,256
So we did a demo and he had a
meeting with Brian in the UK and he

798
00:38:06,256 --> 00:38:07,786
just said, yeah, this is amazing.

799
00:38:07,786 --> 00:38:09,556
This is the kind of
thing that I want to do.

800
00:38:09,556 --> 00:38:12,526
It's 'cause there's not one
story Is there a person?

801
00:38:12,576 --> 00:38:16,896
Then COVID hit but we're starting to
get in the footage together and yeah.

802
00:38:16,896 --> 00:38:19,266
And it was, yeah, it was, and it came out.

803
00:38:20,271 --> 00:38:22,341
Sundance in 2024.

804
00:38:22,341 --> 00:38:25,371
It premiered there in January, 2024.

805
00:38:25,641 --> 00:38:27,171
I'd never been to Sundance.

806
00:38:27,241 --> 00:38:30,181
I actually tell I had once
done an installation there,

807
00:38:30,181 --> 00:38:32,191
but never shown a film there.

808
00:38:33,151 --> 00:38:34,291
Yeah, it was amazing.

809
00:38:34,291 --> 00:38:35,191
It was mind blowing.

810
00:38:35,251 --> 00:38:37,141
We actually opened Sundance that year.

811
00:38:37,751 --> 00:38:41,501
And then it was just a year of
touring it around the world.

812
00:38:41,501 --> 00:38:43,391
And eventually we would do it live.

813
00:38:43,441 --> 00:38:47,731
We contacted Teenage Engineering
in Sweden and they built a machine

814
00:38:47,731 --> 00:38:49,951
for it with my software in it.

815
00:38:50,701 --> 00:38:51,811
And that was amazing.

816
00:38:51,921 --> 00:38:55,491
Premiered all over the world, and
traveled, Gary went everywhere.

817
00:38:55,491 --> 00:38:59,301
I did the New York one and
just a lot of European ones.

818
00:39:00,051 --> 00:39:00,341
Brad Frost: Yeah.

819
00:39:00,386 --> 00:39:03,356
Brendan Dawes: did it live, so we
generated the film in real time.

820
00:39:04,631 --> 00:39:06,161
So we didn't know what was gonna happen.

821
00:39:06,161 --> 00:39:09,761
And yeah, we had just amazing adventure
really for, and then of course it

822
00:39:09,761 --> 00:39:16,071
all culminated in, it was shortlisted
for an Academy award, we didn't make

823
00:39:16,071 --> 00:39:20,011
the final, nominations, but we were
in the last 15, which was amazing.

824
00:39:20,061 --> 00:39:21,141
So yeah, it was crazy.

825
00:39:21,141 --> 00:39:21,951
And now it's gone on.

826
00:39:21,951 --> 00:39:25,851
We now, me and Gary now have a
company, Anamorph, and we're working

827
00:39:25,851 --> 00:39:29,411
on projects that I'm not allowed
to tell you what they are, but

828
00:39:29,676 --> 00:39:30,036
Brad Frost: Yeah.

829
00:39:30,441 --> 00:39:31,671
Brendan Dawes: The like's huge.

830
00:39:31,836 --> 00:39:33,846
We got it when it all came out, we.

831
00:39:34,491 --> 00:39:36,081
Everyone was writing about us.

832
00:39:36,711 --> 00:39:42,191
We got inundated with projects
and, some, really some, just,

833
00:39:43,041 --> 00:39:43,731
Brad Frost: Shit ones.

834
00:39:43,731 --> 00:39:44,001
Yeah.

835
00:39:44,261 --> 00:39:47,831
Brendan Dawes: yeah,
just like really weird.

836
00:39:48,401 --> 00:39:50,101
And we only wanted to work on stuff.

837
00:39:50,101 --> 00:39:52,381
We wanted to, made us
get up in the morning.

838
00:39:52,381 --> 00:39:53,731
So that's,

839
00:39:53,831 --> 00:39:54,161
Brad Frost: Yep.

840
00:39:54,331 --> 00:39:55,471
Brendan Dawes: and that's
where we're at now.

841
00:39:55,471 --> 00:39:59,921
You're working on these various projects,
which you'll eventually see, but so

842
00:39:59,921 --> 00:40:01,691
a lot of my time is spent doing that.

843
00:40:02,631 --> 00:40:03,681
But yeah, no, it's been cool.

844
00:40:03,811 --> 00:40:06,511
One of the lessons is you just
don't know who you're gonna

845
00:40:06,511 --> 00:40:07,891
meet and where it's gonna go.

846
00:40:08,301 --> 00:40:13,451
I met Gary at South by, but it took
12 years for something to happen.

847
00:40:13,581 --> 00:40:17,341
When I've been on these premiers
and I, we're at the Barkin, sold

848
00:40:17,341 --> 00:40:21,416
out 2000 C theater, I'm on stage
with Brian Eno, i'm thinking.

849
00:40:21,916 --> 00:40:24,046
How is this what is going on?

850
00:40:24,156 --> 00:40:25,086
This is nuts.

851
00:40:25,086 --> 00:40:27,256
And I, so it's been fun.

852
00:40:27,256 --> 00:40:28,306
It's been really amazing.

853
00:40:28,306 --> 00:40:28,516
Yeah.

854
00:40:28,936 --> 00:40:33,361
And also the reaction like you to
the film is the real reward from it,

855
00:40:33,411 --> 00:40:37,911
Brad Frost: oh, there there's like my
genuine reaction to the effects of the

856
00:40:37,911 --> 00:40:42,996
film, but then to, testament to what you
just said, it's I'm like, I know Brendann.

857
00:40:43,166 --> 00:40:45,366
I've I've watched the Super Bowl with you.

858
00:40:45,416 --> 00:40:46,886
I've had beers with you,

859
00:40:46,936 --> 00:40:47,236
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

860
00:40:47,641 --> 00:40:49,646
Brad Frost: in the uk like many years ago.

861
00:40:49,646 --> 00:40:51,166
And it's we've had conversations.

862
00:40:51,196 --> 00:40:52,216
I know that guy.

863
00:40:52,216 --> 00:40:52,996
It's amazing.

864
00:40:54,026 --> 00:40:58,951
You touched on why the enduring
legacy of the web, right?

865
00:40:58,981 --> 00:41:02,611
And this is something that I've been
like really eager and keen to, to remind

866
00:41:02,611 --> 00:41:06,961
people of, and South by Southwest was
right like this, that the web in embodied

867
00:41:06,961 --> 00:41:08,881
form, at least for many years, right?

868
00:41:08,881 --> 00:41:11,696
Before, it kinda the QR code business

869
00:41:11,836 --> 00:41:12,046
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

870
00:41:12,146 --> 00:41:12,806
Brad Frost: Took over.

871
00:41:12,916 --> 00:41:15,586
But the, that spirit, right?

872
00:41:15,586 --> 00:41:20,686
Is that ultimately here are human
beings scattered across the globe.

873
00:41:21,106 --> 00:41:25,306
People with ideas, people with
complimentary skill sets, people

874
00:41:25,306 --> 00:41:30,406
that are all and interested and
curious to do interesting work.

875
00:41:30,466 --> 00:41:34,696
And you get together in person and
you're like, they're freaking great.

876
00:41:34,866 --> 00:41:35,046
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

877
00:41:35,206 --> 00:41:35,866
Brad Frost: a blast.

878
00:41:35,866 --> 00:41:36,856
That was a lot of fun.

879
00:41:36,856 --> 00:41:43,376
Let's keep in touch and then forward,
there's something really potent.

880
00:41:44,826 --> 00:41:51,696
That I don't think was quite as
possible before the advent of the web.

881
00:41:51,731 --> 00:41:52,091
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

882
00:41:52,181 --> 00:41:52,901
No, you're right.

883
00:41:52,901 --> 00:41:53,321
It was

884
00:41:53,321 --> 00:41:58,511
Yeah, absolutely it was the whole
flash scene, and a lot of the people

885
00:41:58,511 --> 00:42:02,391
that were in that scene, they've
gone on to do other companies.

886
00:42:02,391 --> 00:42:07,881
They're now, embedded in huge companies
and they've gone on to do other things,

887
00:42:07,881 --> 00:42:08,171
Brad Frost: yeah,

888
00:42:08,601 --> 00:42:12,001
Brendan Dawes: That time when you think
back at it, it wasn't about money.

889
00:42:12,001 --> 00:42:17,011
It was just about trying to make
cool stuff and see where it can go.

890
00:42:17,011 --> 00:42:19,761
And the same with the web
industry exactly the same.

891
00:42:19,761 --> 00:42:25,231
It was we were experimenting with, all
the crazy websites and, but also, like

892
00:42:25,231 --> 00:42:30,301
you said, when you got together at, I
remember like the first Flash conference

893
00:42:30,301 --> 00:42:33,661
and my, it was blowing my mind that
there was these people that I'd only

894
00:42:33,661 --> 00:42:38,361
knew as usernames, and suddenly you're
in a bar with them, or, you are having

895
00:42:38,361 --> 00:42:42,751
these conversations and you realize
that they're really cool and and you

896
00:42:42,751 --> 00:42:44,221
wanna hang out with them and stuff.

897
00:42:44,221 --> 00:42:48,226
And then you come back home and
you're deflated and you get that

898
00:42:48,226 --> 00:42:51,556
post-conference guard, I just
wanna be at South by all the time.

899
00:42:51,606 --> 00:42:51,966
But yeah.

900
00:42:52,146 --> 00:42:54,486
I think it was like a
renaissance for sure.

901
00:42:54,536 --> 00:42:58,556
I'm sure that's what Paris felt like
in the thirties or whatever it was like

902
00:42:58,556 --> 00:43:03,526
that, but it was just more distributed,
it wasn't about a physical city.

903
00:43:04,276 --> 00:43:06,436
'cause I didn't even live in
London, and I still don't.

904
00:43:06,436 --> 00:43:07,486
That's the beauty of the web.

905
00:43:07,486 --> 00:43:10,256
But, I've had emails, I'm
sure you get emails as well.

906
00:43:10,616 --> 00:43:12,026
People don't know where you are.

907
00:43:12,026 --> 00:43:17,156
I've had emails from people
who think I'm 18-year-old and

908
00:43:17,156 --> 00:43:18,416
live in New York or something.

909
00:43:18,466 --> 00:43:21,246
It's because no, you're
anonymous, aren't you?

910
00:43:21,246 --> 00:43:25,626
You're just a username or you are
just a website and I look you up.

911
00:43:26,196 --> 00:43:27,186
But that's one of the great

912
00:43:27,261 --> 00:43:27,551
Brad Frost: Yeah.

913
00:43:27,816 --> 00:43:27,996
Brendan Dawes: it.

914
00:43:28,086 --> 00:43:31,696
But  the other thing I would
say though is that you've gotta

915
00:43:31,696 --> 00:43:33,406
embrace those possibilities.

916
00:43:34,151 --> 00:43:35,841
I could have said to Gary, yeah, I dunno.

917
00:43:35,841 --> 00:43:37,101
Gary, I'm not sure.

918
00:43:37,101 --> 00:43:42,901
It sounds a bit weird and I'm a
bit busy, it's like I just replied.

919
00:43:42,901 --> 00:43:43,441
Yes.

920
00:43:43,441 --> 00:43:45,481
Like immediately, he's just, and

921
00:43:45,521 --> 00:43:45,811
Brad Frost: Yeah.

922
00:43:46,051 --> 00:43:49,321
Brendan Dawes: I didn't even think whether
it was possible didn't care, to be honest.

923
00:43:49,681 --> 00:43:52,501
I was like, there's gotta
be some way of doing this.

924
00:43:52,501 --> 00:43:53,866
And it's always fascinating, isn't it?

925
00:43:53,871 --> 00:43:56,901
I was thinking about this every day and I
think it's like anything where something

926
00:43:56,901 --> 00:44:02,311
is built off a, I imagine architects is
like the, just blows your mind when you're

927
00:44:02,311 --> 00:44:04,681
stood like, and there's a building and Oh.

928
00:44:04,681 --> 00:44:07,501
Especially when it's being made and
thousands of people are hammering

929
00:44:07,501 --> 00:44:09,151
away in a building and you think, God,

930
00:44:09,156 --> 00:44:09,446
Brad Frost: Yeah

931
00:44:09,446 --> 00:44:11,186
Brendan Dawes: that
started out as a sketch or

932
00:44:12,521 --> 00:44:12,811
Brad Frost: yeah,

933
00:44:13,136 --> 00:44:13,526
Brendan Dawes: now this.

934
00:44:13,746 --> 00:44:13,986
Brad Frost: yeah.

935
00:44:13,986 --> 00:44:14,316
That was

936
00:44:14,426 --> 00:44:14,846
Shower

937
00:44:15,076 --> 00:44:15,466
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

938
00:44:15,776 --> 00:44:16,196
Brad Frost: Yeah.

939
00:44:16,316 --> 00:44:17,396
Brendan Dawes: Those kind of things.

940
00:44:17,696 --> 00:44:20,746
And the same with whether you,
the websites you've built or.

941
00:44:21,391 --> 00:44:24,501
They've all just started the
conversation or an email.

942
00:44:25,231 --> 00:44:26,011
So it's the same thing.

943
00:44:26,191 --> 00:44:28,531
So that still continually blows my mind.

944
00:44:28,531 --> 00:44:30,601
It's like, how did we get here?

945
00:44:30,751 --> 00:44:32,671
And then here's the other thing as well.

946
00:44:33,631 --> 00:44:37,201
People look at the thing you've
made as like this thing, right?

947
00:44:37,201 --> 00:44:38,101
This giant.

948
00:44:38,191 --> 00:44:39,991
And it's got all these moving parts.

949
00:44:40,291 --> 00:44:44,211
So quite rightly they
go how did you do this?

950
00:44:44,211 --> 00:44:48,871
And you of course you didn't just
go blah, you, it just appeared.

951
00:44:49,171 --> 00:44:52,506
And maybe, we've just been talking about
you probably can do that these days.

952
00:44:52,836 --> 00:44:58,896
But it took, there was a all little
parts that get joined together that,

953
00:44:59,071 --> 00:44:59,551
Brad Frost: Yes.

954
00:44:59,616 --> 00:45:03,316
Brendan Dawes: it's not like you
just go make a generative film.

955
00:45:03,536 --> 00:45:03,896
It's

956
00:45:04,551 --> 00:45:05,001
Brad Frost: Yeah.

957
00:45:05,036 --> 00:45:08,666
Brendan Dawes: But I get why people, they
just see the entire thing, don't they?

958
00:45:08,846 --> 00:45:11,226
They don't see all the
parts, that, that make it.

959
00:45:12,276 --> 00:45:12,786
But yeah.

960
00:45:13,261 --> 00:45:15,661
Brad Frost: I think like what you're
touching on there and what you

961
00:45:15,661 --> 00:45:21,541
said earlier about how these new
tools are averages and that time

962
00:45:22,506 --> 00:45:24,726
Is it is the way out of

963
00:45:25,181 --> 00:45:25,471
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

964
00:45:25,626 --> 00:45:26,826
Brad Frost: I think effectively.

965
00:45:26,826 --> 00:45:29,431
It is like the time plus
craft, plus judgement

966
00:45:29,531 --> 00:45:29,831
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

967
00:45:29,961 --> 00:45:30,201
Brad Frost: other

968
00:45:30,351 --> 00:45:32,241
Brendan Dawes: And also people as well.

969
00:45:32,451 --> 00:45:33,471
Were collaborating.

970
00:45:33,586 --> 00:45:33,876
Yeah.

971
00:45:34,411 --> 00:45:34,911
Brad Frost: well, Yeah.

972
00:45:34,911 --> 00:45:38,421
You invoking like teenage, so
you're already fully stacked

973
00:45:38,421 --> 00:45:39,201
and that it's like sure.

974
00:45:39,201 --> 00:45:40,461
Let's pull it, those

975
00:45:40,706 --> 00:45:44,096
Could you talk a little bit about
that sort of creative collaboration,

976
00:45:44,126 --> 00:45:49,306
especially across different mediums,
across different intellectual planes

977
00:45:49,736 --> 00:45:53,126
and levels of deep expertise that.

978
00:45:54,116 --> 00:45:54,926
No doubt.

979
00:45:54,986 --> 00:45:57,816
There's, you're all sh showing
up with a great deal of respect

980
00:45:57,851 --> 00:45:58,141
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

981
00:45:58,196 --> 00:45:58,976
Brad Frost: for one another.

982
00:45:58,976 --> 00:46:03,086
Like how does that play out
in an actual partnership?

983
00:46:03,116 --> 00:46:04,876
'cause you're all ostensibly in the muck

984
00:46:05,266 --> 00:46:05,556
Brendan Dawes: Yeah,

985
00:46:05,673 --> 00:46:09,843
Brad Frost: And it's like trying
to learn, feel each other out

986
00:46:10,063 --> 00:46:12,823
Honor their expertise,
but also play your part.

987
00:46:12,873 --> 00:46:13,353
Can you speak

988
00:46:13,418 --> 00:46:13,868
Brendan Dawes: Sure.

989
00:46:13,868 --> 00:46:14,138
Yeah.

990
00:46:14,138 --> 00:46:16,898
I think first of all, you
don't wanna be surrounded by

991
00:46:16,898 --> 00:46:18,338
people who just agree with you.

992
00:46:19,148 --> 00:46:21,598
'cause you, that's just
a terrible position.

993
00:46:21,658 --> 00:46:22,348
That's just sicker.

994
00:46:22,348 --> 00:46:25,018
Fancy and we've seen the guy in the white.

995
00:46:25,133 --> 00:46:25,433
Yeah.

996
00:46:25,548 --> 00:46:25,728
Brad Frost: does?

997
00:46:26,063 --> 00:46:27,113
Brendan Dawes: See what that guess is.

998
00:46:27,303 --> 00:46:27,603
Brad Frost: Yeah.

999
00:46:27,608 --> 00:46:27,908
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

1000
00:46:28,023 --> 00:46:28,833
Brad Frost: we all know where that

1001
00:46:29,108 --> 00:46:29,378
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1002
00:46:29,618 --> 00:46:33,248
So you wanna be challenged
and you want people to push

1003
00:46:33,248 --> 00:46:35,198
you that you are working with.

1004
00:46:35,438 --> 00:46:38,078
I think that's one of the
core things of collaboration.

1005
00:46:38,678 --> 00:46:41,708
But from my point of view,
I want 'em to be good.

1006
00:46:41,978 --> 00:46:46,113
I don't want to worry about whether
they can do it, and that is, that, that

1007
00:46:46,118 --> 00:46:50,948
doesn't mean that you, that doesn't
mean you don't want, room for failure.

1008
00:46:50,948 --> 00:46:51,878
You absolutely do.

1009
00:46:51,878 --> 00:46:54,878
I'm not saying that, but you want
people to know what they're doing.

1010
00:46:54,988 --> 00:46:58,278
And you're trying to work with
people who are at the top of the game

1011
00:46:58,848 --> 00:47:00,858
because then you learn things as well.

1012
00:47:01,458 --> 00:47:05,608
But I find with a collaborative
process, yeah, you have disagreements,

1013
00:47:05,608 --> 00:47:10,168
but if you respect each other, you
don't take those things personally.

1014
00:47:10,218 --> 00:47:12,558
Oftentimes you think, God,
I don't agree with that.

1015
00:47:12,558 --> 00:47:15,578
And then, a day later going,
yeah, they were right.

1016
00:47:16,728 --> 00:47:18,338
Now I think about it because.

1017
00:47:18,953 --> 00:47:22,313
What they're doing is they're giving
you a different lens to see something.

1018
00:47:22,833 --> 00:47:28,623
You've got your lens and it's, and your
biases and you're often so locked in

1019
00:47:28,623 --> 00:47:33,033
on, it's gotta be blue, it's gotta be
blue, it's not gonna be any other color.

1020
00:47:33,363 --> 00:47:36,243
And then they go, have we tried it pink?

1021
00:47:36,243 --> 00:47:38,073
And you're, what are
you talking about, man?

1022
00:47:38,313 --> 00:47:40,563
And then you go and you go,
actually that looks quite good.

1023
00:47:40,753 --> 00:47:45,233
So things, yeah, but also you
realize that there can be a lot

1024
00:47:45,233 --> 00:47:49,103
of great problem solving, we have
a lot of things to fix and solve.

1025
00:47:49,583 --> 00:47:54,523
And I love just discussing with
intelligent, clever people.

1026
00:47:55,153 --> 00:47:59,023
You just get into the weeds of it
and it's, oh God, it's so good.

1027
00:47:59,023 --> 00:48:01,143
It's and you're just,
you're not making anything.

1028
00:48:01,143 --> 00:48:04,893
You're just talking about the detail.

1029
00:48:05,283 --> 00:48:06,423
The detail of it.

1030
00:48:06,423 --> 00:48:06,993
It's the thing.

1031
00:48:07,023 --> 00:48:09,783
Charles Eames had this thing,
like the detail isn't just the

1032
00:48:09,783 --> 00:48:11,133
detail, it makes the product.

1033
00:48:11,133 --> 00:48:14,923
Which I'm sure we've all heard
before, but all these details matter.

1034
00:48:14,923 --> 00:48:17,383
And when you start discussing
those things with other people

1035
00:48:17,383 --> 00:48:19,783
like that, oh, it's just the best.

1036
00:48:19,783 --> 00:48:20,353
It's just,

1037
00:48:20,433 --> 00:48:20,823
Brad Frost: yeah

1038
00:48:21,233 --> 00:48:24,060
Brendan Dawes: as I'm sure you know,
Eno and I know your stuff Oh with,

1039
00:48:24,065 --> 00:48:26,221
with and all that stuff is amazing.

1040
00:48:26,271 --> 00:48:29,561
I think it just comes from a point
of respect, but you also have a

1041
00:48:29,561 --> 00:48:32,231
shared vision, so that's important.

1042
00:48:32,351 --> 00:48:33,851
If you all have different, might,

1043
00:48:33,891 --> 00:48:33,951
Brad Frost: Yeah.

1044
00:48:34,191 --> 00:48:36,171
Brendan Dawes: I think it
should be this and that.

1045
00:48:36,221 --> 00:48:38,321
You still have to have the central goal.

1046
00:48:38,321 --> 00:48:41,941
I think you have to have an
emotional compass to head to.

1047
00:48:42,811 --> 00:48:48,091
If you're not all going there, then you
get mutiny and then things fall apart,

1048
00:48:48,301 --> 00:48:52,291
which is why companies break apart
and startups fail and stuff like that.

1049
00:48:52,321 --> 00:48:55,461
'cause often the founders
go, I didn't want this.

1050
00:48:55,461 --> 00:49:02,741
and the relationship side, over time you
learn each other's habits, idiosyncrasies.

1051
00:49:03,281 --> 00:49:06,761
We were doing a thing in Venice, me
and Gary, before the film came out.

1052
00:49:06,761 --> 00:49:11,091
It was another installation we did
and we were sharing, a place in

1053
00:49:11,091 --> 00:49:16,296
Venice and Gary got up, breakfast and
he walked past my room and he went.

1054
00:49:17,586 --> 00:49:18,586
Have you made your bed?

1055
00:49:18,606 --> 00:49:20,406
I went, yeah, of course.

1056
00:49:20,406 --> 00:49:20,466
Have.

1057
00:49:21,471 --> 00:49:25,586
And so that was like, for me
I'm very organized, right?

1058
00:49:25,946 --> 00:49:28,906
So I have to I have to, I
can't work without shoes on.

1059
00:49:29,146 --> 00:49:30,286
That's just me, right?

1060
00:49:30,286 --> 00:49:31,126
I'm weird.

1061
00:49:31,456 --> 00:49:33,616
But, and Gary's not like that, right?

1062
00:49:33,616 --> 00:49:37,156
So he just gets up and gets on
with it, or I'm like getting

1063
00:49:37,156 --> 00:49:38,536
the corner straight and Yeah.

1064
00:49:39,406 --> 00:49:42,741
But his desktop is like
an explosion has gone off.

1065
00:49:43,131 --> 00:49:43,341
Yeah.

1066
00:49:43,461 --> 00:49:44,811
In an icon factory.

1067
00:49:45,021 --> 00:49:46,461
And I'm like, oh my God.

1068
00:49:46,581 --> 00:49:51,921
And when he opens his laptop, he says,
now don't look, but that it works for him.

1069
00:49:52,641 --> 00:49:53,791
And that's his process.

1070
00:49:53,841 --> 00:49:54,381
It works.

1071
00:49:54,771 --> 00:49:59,151
My process is not that I'm very
organized, so in, in that kind

1072
00:49:59,201 --> 00:50:02,201
Brad Frost: And then in between
is the marriage, is the,

1073
00:50:02,251 --> 00:50:02,851
Brendan Dawes: you need.

1074
00:50:03,226 --> 00:50:03,616
Yeah,

1075
00:50:03,641 --> 00:50:04,001
Brad Frost: is the,

1076
00:50:04,066 --> 00:50:07,306
Brendan Dawes: you've got the tension
between the two and you need that.

1077
00:50:07,306 --> 00:50:10,786
I'm like, here, and he is there,
we still have the same goal,

1078
00:50:11,056 --> 00:50:14,746
but we work in different ways,
but then it comes together, so

1079
00:50:15,011 --> 00:50:15,401
Brad Frost: Yeah.

1080
00:50:15,766 --> 00:50:16,996
Brendan Dawes: I think
you need that tension.

1081
00:50:18,261 --> 00:50:19,041
Brad Frost: I think so.

1082
00:50:20,131 --> 00:50:23,921
I'm also curious 'cause because you
did also say at, maybe even at the

1083
00:50:23,921 --> 00:50:27,581
top, you're like, oh yeah I do a fair
amount of things like that are on my

1084
00:50:27,736 --> 00:50:28,096
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1085
00:50:28,571 --> 00:50:31,241
Brad Frost: So you're still
able to exercise your full.

1086
00:50:32,591 --> 00:50:35,951
Instincts and just operate
like without really any

1087
00:50:36,211 --> 00:50:39,991
But then there are other moments
where that friction is welcome

1088
00:50:39,991 --> 00:50:42,121
and helps you grow as well.

1089
00:50:42,121 --> 00:50:44,631
And I like I see that a lot playing music.

1090
00:50:44,631 --> 00:50:48,321
There's just so much that is
just I need to just, I just

1091
00:50:48,321 --> 00:50:51,681
need to go I will just get to

1092
00:50:51,776 --> 00:50:52,076
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1093
00:50:52,371 --> 00:50:52,971
Brad Frost: play.

1094
00:50:53,031 --> 00:50:55,601
And that's that is that
and that is the act.

1095
00:50:55,601 --> 00:51:01,391
And that is like what my body, my soul is
just like, you need to do this now, do it.

1096
00:51:01,481 --> 00:51:04,451
And then I do it and I'm
like, that, that was needed.

1097
00:51:04,571 --> 00:51:08,321
And then there's playing with other people

1098
00:51:08,691 --> 00:51:08,981
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1099
00:51:09,671 --> 00:51:13,081
Brad Frost: at that, that
relationship that you're describing.

1100
00:51:13,501 --> 00:51:16,081
And those are where you go.

1101
00:51:16,441 --> 00:51:23,246
I would've never a million
years played this on my own.

1102
00:51:23,346 --> 00:51:27,246
In no universe would I have
gotten anywhere close to this.

1103
00:51:27,271 --> 00:51:31,841
I specifically remember one time I, I
have these like, start calling the frosty

1104
00:51:31,841 --> 00:51:37,501
nights where we just local musicians,
some friends that we met, just good people

1105
00:51:37,531 --> 00:51:39,631
come over to my basement and we just like,

1106
00:51:39,756 --> 00:51:40,046
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1107
00:51:40,171 --> 00:51:40,711
Brad Frost: session.

1108
00:51:40,741 --> 00:51:41,251
That's it.

1109
00:51:41,281 --> 00:51:42,601
That's the entire night there.

1110
00:51:42,601 --> 00:51:43,561
There's no agenda.

1111
00:51:43,561 --> 00:51:45,271
There's just come over,
we're playing music.

1112
00:51:45,961 --> 00:51:51,031
And I'll never forget, like it was the
first one of those that we did, and

1113
00:51:51,031 --> 00:51:55,981
I was like, behind the drum kit and
usually my brothers playing drums, but I

1114
00:51:55,981 --> 00:51:58,291
was playing drums and I was like, what?

1115
00:51:59,941 --> 00:52:03,961
though don't, I didn't know
I could do this first of

1116
00:52:04,116 --> 00:52:04,356
Brendan Dawes: Right.

1117
00:52:04,441 --> 00:52:08,101
Brad Frost: second of all, this
is so not my style at all, but it

1118
00:52:08,101 --> 00:52:10,051
worked, but it freaking worked.

1119
00:52:10,051 --> 00:52:11,581
And I was like, oh, that was.

1120
00:52:11,866 --> 00:52:12,946
That was amazing.

1121
00:52:12,946 --> 00:52:16,336
And then you, and then that's
something you suddenly know about

1122
00:52:16,446 --> 00:52:16,746
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1123
00:52:16,746 --> 00:52:17,406
Exactly.

1124
00:52:17,436 --> 00:52:17,826
Yeah.

1125
00:52:18,516 --> 00:52:18,696
Yeah.

1126
00:52:18,696 --> 00:52:19,626
You go somewhere,

1127
00:52:19,666 --> 00:52:20,716
Brad Frost: take that back into

1128
00:52:20,766 --> 00:52:21,156
Brendan Dawes: yeah,

1129
00:52:21,316 --> 00:52:21,766
Brad Frost: your own

1130
00:52:21,996 --> 00:52:22,566
Brendan Dawes: absolutely.

1131
00:52:22,566 --> 00:52:22,836
Yeah.

1132
00:52:23,046 --> 00:52:23,376
Yeah.

1133
00:52:23,466 --> 00:52:24,306
No, that's it.

1134
00:52:24,396 --> 00:52:27,116
That's one of the great things
they show you, like I said, it's

1135
00:52:27,116 --> 00:52:30,806
a different lens to see things
and you go, oh, that's quite cool.

1136
00:52:31,136 --> 00:52:32,906
That's less, less, like you say.

1137
00:52:32,906 --> 00:52:33,746
I'll have a bit of that.

1138
00:52:33,746 --> 00:52:34,436
Yeah, why not?

1139
00:52:34,466 --> 00:52:35,486
Yeah, so yeah.

1140
00:52:35,886 --> 00:52:36,606
Brad Frost: Yeah.

1141
00:52:36,881 --> 00:52:40,771
And I always understood the real
sentiment behind "great artists steal"

1142
00:52:40,791 --> 00:52:45,631
like I, I get it, but it's like I
still like I've just still never liked

1143
00:52:45,721 --> 00:52:50,881
that terminology for it, it really is,
it's a transmission, it's a sharing.

1144
00:52:50,981 --> 00:52:52,721
It's a continuation

1145
00:52:52,831 --> 00:52:53,221
Brendan Dawes: yeah,

1146
00:52:53,621 --> 00:52:54,901
Brad Frost: versus a theft.

1147
00:52:54,901 --> 00:53:00,146
It's, it is a. Like it
feels additive rather than,

1148
00:53:00,181 --> 00:53:01,381
Something is being taken

1149
00:53:01,716 --> 00:53:04,806
Brendan Dawes: yeah, the steal thing
suggests that you're gonna use it

1150
00:53:04,806 --> 00:53:06,636
verbatim and you don't do that, do you?

1151
00:53:06,636 --> 00:53:07,896
Inspiration it.

1152
00:53:08,191 --> 00:53:09,541
Brad Frost: You can't,
you're a different mind.

1153
00:53:09,541 --> 00:53:10,171
You're a different

1154
00:53:10,206 --> 00:53:10,656
Brendan Dawes: exactly.

1155
00:53:10,801 --> 00:53:11,281
Brad Frost: Yeah.

1156
00:53:11,586 --> 00:53:12,036
Brendan Dawes: fuzzy.

1157
00:53:12,606 --> 00:53:16,751
I think, inspiration, it goes in
your head, but the memory of it is

1158
00:53:16,801 --> 00:53:20,671
clouded and then all these other
things stick onto it, which is you.

1159
00:53:21,331 --> 00:53:26,501
And your own idiosyncrasies and it comes
out, but somewhere in there is the,

1160
00:53:27,221 --> 00:53:29,801
that thing you saw, yeah, for sure.

1161
00:53:30,466 --> 00:53:30,876
Brad Frost: That's beautiful.

1162
00:53:31,161 --> 00:53:34,671
Have you ever been upset by
someone commodifying your

1163
00:53:34,856 --> 00:53:35,306
Brendan Dawes: No,

1164
00:53:35,306 --> 00:53:36,176
Brad Frost: like doing anything?

1165
00:53:36,181 --> 00:53:40,256
Brendan Dawes: I get a lot of, quite
a few times a year I get, like when

1166
00:53:40,296 --> 00:53:44,721
I did the Cinema Redux thing, which
was the movie, and it was the rows

1167
00:53:44,721 --> 00:53:50,991
of a 60 frames a sec, 60 frames, and
it's, each row is one minute of film

1168
00:53:50,991 --> 00:53:52,761
time and it does the entire film.

1169
00:53:52,761 --> 00:53:54,951
And that was really successful for me.

1170
00:53:55,006 --> 00:53:55,276
Brad Frost: So

1171
00:53:55,431 --> 00:53:55,731
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1172
00:53:55,781 --> 00:53:58,841
But people, the thing is with
that, it, you could code it

1173
00:53:58,841 --> 00:54:01,271
in five minutes less with ai.

1174
00:54:01,321 --> 00:54:04,021
So it, it was dead simple.

1175
00:54:04,121 --> 00:54:05,651
Which was one of the points of it, really.

1176
00:54:05,651 --> 00:54:08,261
But the other point was
the data wasn't abstracted.

1177
00:54:08,411 --> 00:54:11,866
What you saw was the data,
which someone pointed out to me.

1178
00:54:11,866 --> 00:54:13,426
And afterwards I was like, oh yeah.

1179
00:54:13,786 --> 00:54:17,376
But anyway but people do copy
it, and I get emails from, oh,

1180
00:54:17,376 --> 00:54:18,956
this guy's, he's ripped you off.

1181
00:54:18,956 --> 00:54:22,786
And I go, yeah I've I've put
that idea out into the world.

1182
00:54:23,236 --> 00:54:24,856
It's done really well for me.

1183
00:54:25,136 --> 00:54:26,276
It's made me money.

1184
00:54:26,276 --> 00:54:32,126
It's led to lots of opportunities, let
them, I think it's dangerous if you hold

1185
00:54:32,126 --> 00:54:34,676
onto one idea and think this is mine

1186
00:54:34,701 --> 00:54:35,151
Brad Frost: yeah,

1187
00:54:35,186 --> 00:54:37,376
Brendan Dawes: I'm gonna
sue anyone who comes at me.

1188
00:54:38,016 --> 00:54:40,956
Obviously you need patents for, if
you've got a company and those kind of

1189
00:54:40,956 --> 00:54:43,236
things that they're commercial decisions.

1190
00:54:43,236 --> 00:54:47,146
But with art and stuff, it's,
where do you draw the line?

1191
00:54:47,146 --> 00:54:51,516
'Cause someone could say to me, doing
sequence of images was done, blah, blah.

1192
00:54:51,566 --> 00:54:52,166
I don't know,

1193
00:54:52,606 --> 00:54:52,826
Brad Frost: Yep.

1194
00:54:53,156 --> 00:54:57,236
Brendan Dawes: was, but yeah, so I
don, I don't, I just write back to

1195
00:54:57,236 --> 00:54:58,556
these people and go, oh it's fine.

1196
00:54:58,586 --> 00:54:59,126
Don't worry.

1197
00:54:59,726 --> 00:55:02,986
Let them play with it, it's
it's not rocket science.

1198
00:55:02,991 --> 00:55:03,831
You hope so?

1199
00:55:04,541 --> 00:55:09,071
Brad Frost: No it's, there is, there
just becomes like a declarative

1200
00:55:09,071 --> 00:55:11,171
fact that it's I made this.

1201
00:55:11,311 --> 00:55:12,331
I put this out into

1202
00:55:12,406 --> 00:55:12,696
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1203
00:55:12,901 --> 00:55:17,731
Brad Frost: I shared this end of
story, and then what happens afterwards

1204
00:55:17,731 --> 00:55:20,131
is not really my business, right?

1205
00:55:20,131 --> 00:55:24,138
And, and I've received a lot of
emails over the years on like

1206
00:55:24,478 --> 00:55:26,338
a methodology around things.

1207
00:55:26,338 --> 00:55:31,878
So I've had like now 13 plus
years of emails challenging

1208
00:55:32,628 --> 00:55:35,458
that or better alternatives

1209
00:55:35,568 --> 00:55:35,778
Brendan Dawes: Right.

1210
00:55:35,858 --> 00:55:38,648
Brad Frost: Saying this is an
original and this isn't whatever.

1211
00:55:38,648 --> 00:55:43,838
And it's just and you just learn how to
just get comfortable going yes like,.

1212
00:55:44,378 --> 00:55:45,338
But I think that you're right.

1213
00:55:45,338 --> 00:55:47,288
I see the people being
precious about whether

1214
00:55:47,413 --> 00:55:47,653
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

1215
00:55:48,008 --> 00:55:51,988
Brad Frost: and it's this is the thing
and it's I'm be proud of that thing.

1216
00:55:52,083 --> 00:55:52,383
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1217
00:55:52,408 --> 00:55:54,718
Brad Frost: proud of the work
that you do and that thing, be

1218
00:55:54,718 --> 00:55:57,448
proud of your your expertise, but
know that you're a lot bigger.

1219
00:55:57,448 --> 00:55:57,958
That and

1220
00:55:57,968 --> 00:55:58,248
Brendan Dawes: absolutely.

1221
00:55:58,248 --> 00:55:58,258
Yeah,

1222
00:55:58,318 --> 00:56:03,358
Brad Frost: This stuff is a transmission
and it's a, it's an additive and growing

1223
00:56:03,358 --> 00:56:09,133
and contributing in these layers of just
everything sitting on top of each other.

1224
00:56:09,183 --> 00:56:13,533
You don't get that if
you clutch your pearls.

1225
00:56:13,538 --> 00:56:13,868
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

1226
00:56:13,868 --> 00:56:14,138
Absolutely.

1227
00:56:14,193 --> 00:56:15,093
Brad Frost: you try to

1228
00:56:16,508 --> 00:56:16,808
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1229
00:56:16,808 --> 00:56:17,258
Own it.

1230
00:56:17,433 --> 00:56:19,593
Brad Frost: go, cease
and desist letters and

1231
00:56:19,898 --> 00:56:20,888
It's get o get

1232
00:56:20,983 --> 00:56:21,373
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

1233
00:56:21,523 --> 00:56:21,883
Exactly.

1234
00:56:22,133 --> 00:56:25,183
Because the other thing is and also
you should be thinking of other ideas.

1235
00:56:25,303 --> 00:56:27,283
You, if you are just
holding onto that one idea.

1236
00:56:27,338 --> 00:56:27,698
Brad Frost: that's it.

1237
00:56:27,698 --> 00:56:28,358
That's just it.

1238
00:56:28,358 --> 00:56:29,318
Yeah, it's it's just,

1239
00:56:29,623 --> 00:56:29,743
Brendan Dawes: Yeah,

1240
00:56:29,888 --> 00:56:30,878
Brad Frost: it, that's it.

1241
00:56:31,118 --> 00:56:32,558
To invoke Brian Eno.

1242
00:56:32,558 --> 00:56:33,888
It's I don't wanna, I don't want to

1243
00:56:34,078 --> 00:56:34,378
Look

1244
00:56:34,868 --> 00:56:35,158
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

1245
00:56:35,428 --> 00:56:38,878
Brad Frost: I think is really
funny to, come back to that.

1246
00:56:39,018 --> 00:56:39,308
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1247
00:56:39,408 --> 00:56:40,908
Brad Frost: I think
that, that's fascinating.

1248
00:56:40,908 --> 00:56:42,708
It's a commendable position.

1249
00:56:42,768 --> 00:56:46,718
And I understand the idea of I don't
wanna like necessarily be the one in the

1250
00:56:46,718 --> 00:56:49,238
limelight or whatever or to go backwards.

1251
00:56:49,238 --> 00:56:53,618
But you also, that beginning
of our conversation talked

1252
00:56:53,618 --> 00:56:57,878
about this thing the microphone

1253
00:56:57,938 --> 00:57:02,425
And talked to my power, Rebecca
Garza Borman who amongst other

1254
00:57:02,425 --> 00:57:04,695
things made like YouTube's logo.

1255
00:57:04,820 --> 00:57:05,300
Brendan Dawes: Wow.

1256
00:57:06,150 --> 00:57:09,210
Brad Frost: But she and her
husband are amazing musicians.

1257
00:57:09,240 --> 00:57:14,850
And she talked about just as stuck with
me and I think about it a lot whenever

1258
00:57:14,850 --> 00:57:23,273
I'm recording is she's just like, my
grandkids will know what I sounded like,

1259
00:57:23,323 --> 00:57:26,353
What I exist, like what that I existed.

1260
00:57:26,403 --> 00:57:30,543
They would, they will know, they'll
be able to connect me through that.

1261
00:57:30,628 --> 00:57:37,578
Like for someone as, as amazing as Brian
Eno to be able to encapsulate at least

1262
00:57:37,578 --> 00:57:42,378
that and then that could then serve
as the creative like launchpad for.

1263
00:57:42,738 --> 00:57:43,758
So many people

1264
00:57:43,773 --> 00:57:44,063
Brendan Dawes: yeah,

1265
00:57:44,238 --> 00:57:48,086
Brad Frost: that's, That's why you
look backwards or that's why you

1266
00:57:48,086 --> 00:57:49,826
like, spend the time to do that.

1267
00:57:49,826 --> 00:57:56,166
That archival is like, how do you
put it in, into a vessel that can

1268
00:57:56,166 --> 00:57:58,716
continue just like the generative

1269
00:57:58,741 --> 00:57:59,031
Brendan Dawes: yeah,

1270
00:57:59,111 --> 00:57:59,861
Brad Frost: Its itself

1271
00:57:59,961 --> 00:58:00,141
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

1272
00:58:00,141 --> 00:58:00,651
Absolutely.

1273
00:58:01,061 --> 00:58:01,691
Brad Frost: To give

1274
00:58:01,711 --> 00:58:02,641
Brendan Dawes: Yeah, definitely.

1275
00:58:03,121 --> 00:58:03,421
Yeah.

1276
00:58:03,431 --> 00:58:03,791
Yeah.

1277
00:58:03,841 --> 00:58:04,621
That's the idea.

1278
00:58:04,671 --> 00:58:09,051
I don't think we'll ever stop making
versions of it, so it's gonna run and run.

1279
00:58:09,051 --> 00:58:09,111
Yeah.

1280
00:58:10,291 --> 00:58:10,621
Yeah.

1281
00:58:10,681 --> 00:58:10,701
Brad Frost: You shouldn't.

1282
00:58:10,948 --> 00:58:13,058
Brendan Dawes: constantly
adding footage to it yeah.

1283
00:58:15,708 --> 00:58:16,188
Brad Frost: So

1284
00:58:16,298 --> 00:58:16,598
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1285
00:58:17,058 --> 00:58:18,048
Brad Frost: It's so cool.

1286
00:58:18,358 --> 00:58:22,788
How many projects do you have that are
like humming along or do you like run

1287
00:58:22,788 --> 00:58:25,188
them for a stretch and then stop them?

1288
00:58:25,838 --> 00:58:27,468
Like generative projects?

1289
00:58:28,668 --> 00:58:34,468
Brendan Dawes: Separate projects probably
right now there is four or five that we're

1290
00:58:34,468 --> 00:58:37,378
working on outside of my own art practice.

1291
00:58:37,378 --> 00:58:40,128
So I've got a solo show coming
up at the end of the year.

1292
00:58:40,168 --> 00:58:44,038
I've just got an email about another
one that I'm with the same gallery

1293
00:58:44,038 --> 00:58:47,638
that I'm, a group show that I've
been invited to be part of, so

1294
00:58:47,638 --> 00:58:48,958
I need to do something for that.

1295
00:58:49,598 --> 00:58:53,228
Yeah but the bigger projects,
probably about four or five.

1296
00:58:53,828 --> 00:58:54,308
Brad Frost: Amazing.

1297
00:58:54,458 --> 00:58:57,438
Brendan Dawes: a few others that
we're talking about, but they're

1298
00:58:57,438 --> 00:58:58,938
all very different to each other,

1299
00:58:58,988 --> 00:58:59,528
Brad Frost: yeah.

1300
00:59:00,468 --> 00:59:02,658
Could you speak a little bit to that.

1301
00:59:02,658 --> 00:59:04,878
You're describing a breadth, right?

1302
00:59:04,938 --> 00:59:08,298
There's like creative depth and
expertise, but that there's like

1303
00:59:08,298 --> 00:59:12,498
breadth and you're like just touching
all of the these different mediums.

1304
00:59:12,598 --> 00:59:14,428
Do you feel like you grew into that?

1305
00:59:14,478 --> 00:59:18,488
Or did you always just go I'm just
gonna make stuff and I, like it's

1306
00:59:18,488 --> 00:59:21,128
going to show up in many different ways

1307
00:59:21,818 --> 00:59:23,618
many different formats and outputs.

1308
00:59:24,628 --> 00:59:26,088
Brendan Dawes: yeah, it wasn't planned.

1309
00:59:26,088 --> 00:59:28,338
Let, there was no strategy.

1310
00:59:28,488 --> 00:59:30,948
It was only because I didn't
know what I wanted to do.

1311
00:59:31,498 --> 00:59:33,218
When I. I left school.

1312
00:59:33,283 --> 00:59:37,693
I didn't go to college or university
or, and I became a photographer for a

1313
00:59:37,693 --> 00:59:39,583
while because my dad was a photographer.

1314
00:59:39,583 --> 00:59:40,903
So I got a job

1315
00:59:41,263 --> 00:59:42,623
At, in new, in the newspaper.

1316
00:59:42,673 --> 00:59:46,353
And then I was already learning
how to code I a Sinclair's

1317
00:59:46,353 --> 00:59:48,213
ZX 81, in the eighties.

1318
00:59:48,543 --> 00:59:51,123
And that's what taught me how
to code or I taught myself.

1319
00:59:51,963 --> 00:59:54,093
And then I did a sound engineering course.

1320
00:59:54,143 --> 00:59:59,303
And because, at the time computers
were just coming in, Cubase and AKAI

1321
00:59:59,583 --> 01:00:05,703
samplers, the mono samplers, the S
1000, things like that, the Mc 2 0 2,

1322
01:00:05,763 --> 01:00:07,413
Roland and all those kind of things.

1323
01:00:08,223 --> 01:00:09,813
They were just really starting to happen.

1324
01:00:09,813 --> 01:00:13,983
And I was like, I can program computers
and I like computers, so now let's

1325
01:00:13,983 --> 01:00:15,753
use a computer to make some music.

1326
01:00:16,053 --> 01:00:16,343
Brad Frost: Yeah.

1327
01:00:16,478 --> 01:00:20,678
Brendan Dawes: I, got a record contract
and put out like three singles during the

1328
01:00:20,678 --> 01:00:22,568
rave scene and all that kind of stuff.

1329
01:00:22,628 --> 01:00:25,453
But at that, at the time I
wasn't earning any money, so

1330
01:00:26,243 --> 01:00:30,563
I got a job in a factory just making
circuit boards, for, and I was

1331
01:00:30,563 --> 01:00:33,143
there for eight years till I was 29.

1332
01:00:33,743 --> 01:00:39,203
So I was really, struggling to
make a career in anything really.

1333
01:00:39,203 --> 01:00:40,313
I thought, I'm just gonna be in this

1334
01:00:40,508 --> 01:00:40,698
Brad Frost: Yeah.

1335
01:00:40,973 --> 01:00:41,753
Brendan Dawes: rest of my life.

1336
01:00:41,873 --> 01:00:46,093
And then this amazing thing called
the Web came along this, so this is 96

1337
01:00:46,093 --> 01:00:52,753
when I found it, and I just rang up a
local web design company that had just

1338
01:00:52,753 --> 01:00:54,743
appeared it was about 30 miles away.

1339
01:00:55,943 --> 01:00:58,493
They just took me on as a chance,
'cause I could do a bit of

1340
01:00:58,583 --> 01:01:00,023
this thing called JavaScript.

1341
01:01:00,893 --> 01:01:03,233
I ended up becoming
the art director there.

1342
01:01:03,443 --> 01:01:06,793
'Cause I was into graphic design,
discovered this thing called Photoshop.

1343
01:01:06,843 --> 01:01:08,733
But it was all 'cause of, computers.

1344
01:01:09,043 --> 01:01:13,153
So I left the factory and
took like a 50% drop in wages.

1345
01:01:13,183 --> 01:01:15,793
'cause, 'cause I have
an amazing wife, Lisa.

1346
01:01:15,793 --> 01:01:18,313
She was like, this is your
way outta the factory.

1347
01:01:18,403 --> 01:01:19,393
You gotta go for it.

1348
01:01:20,023 --> 01:01:22,243
And then, yeah, and then the
rest is history kind of thing.

1349
01:01:22,243 --> 01:01:26,733
But yeah I guess it comes from
the different mediums thing.

1350
01:01:26,733 --> 01:01:32,190
It's just, I love art forms in different,
you know, I love, I love a book.

1351
01:01:32,190 --> 01:01:33,600
I love cinema.

1352
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:39,610
I love music, I love, so why can't I,
manifest these things in different ways.

1353
01:01:39,940 --> 01:01:43,990
The thing is, a lot of the stuff
that I do now, it all starts from.

1354
01:01:44,665 --> 01:01:48,895
A digital thing, but as you've seen it
becomes a newspaper or it becomes a,

1355
01:01:48,940 --> 01:01:49,230
Brad Frost: Yeah.

1356
01:01:49,745 --> 01:01:52,265
Brendan Dawes: It could be a vinyl
record, it could be a print, it

1357
01:01:52,265 --> 01:01:56,165
could be a feature film, so yeah, I
think I just get bored quite quick.

1358
01:01:57,185 --> 01:02:00,335
Even though I do want to go
deep on stuff that is very true.

1359
01:02:01,155 --> 01:02:06,745
But I'm just curious as to go, what
if we did a book, or, what if we did a

1360
01:02:06,745 --> 01:02:11,495
book where the cover is different every
time, or, what if we curate a show in

1361
01:02:11,495 --> 01:02:16,345
New York at the end of the year what if
that the show could change every day?

1362
01:02:17,185 --> 01:02:19,015
How'd you do, how'd you do that?

1363
01:02:19,195 --> 01:02:19,675
Brad Frost: How do you do

1364
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:20,760
Brendan Dawes: is it possible?

1365
01:02:21,420 --> 01:02:21,780
Yeah.

1366
01:02:21,780 --> 01:02:22,740
So you know what?

1367
01:02:22,740 --> 01:02:24,390
You just ask yourself
questions, don't you?

1368
01:02:25,470 --> 01:02:25,865
That's what you do

1369
01:02:25,885 --> 01:02:26,305
Brad Frost: Yeah.

1370
01:02:26,695 --> 01:02:27,265
Yeah.

1371
01:02:27,330 --> 01:02:27,420
Brendan Dawes: know.

1372
01:02:27,955 --> 01:02:28,915
Brad Frost: Thank you for sharing

1373
01:02:28,925 --> 01:02:29,185
Brendan Dawes: All right.

1374
01:02:29,215 --> 01:02:33,585
Brad Frost: think, I think that journey,
especially like the fact that it

1375
01:02:33,585 --> 01:02:35,305
wasn't like, ah, yes, just right off.

1376
01:02:36,210 --> 01:02:39,300
To the races in the creative professions.

1377
01:02:40,020 --> 01:02:43,990
But I'm sure all the while like tinkering
in the background, but that ability to be

1378
01:02:43,990 --> 01:02:49,750
like computer general purpose technology,
could point it at different things.

1379
01:02:49,780 --> 01:02:52,300
Oh, here's music could do that.

1380
01:02:52,330 --> 01:02:54,160
By that it's like, ah here's websites.

1381
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:54,790
There's that.

1382
01:02:54,790 --> 01:02:59,240
And it's that transferable knowledge
that once you do that once or

1383
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:01,010
twice, then you're like, oh, okay.

1384
01:03:01,310 --> 01:03:01,600
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1385
01:03:01,700 --> 01:03:02,000
Brad Frost: To do

1386
01:03:02,125 --> 01:03:02,455
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1387
01:03:02,990 --> 01:03:04,820
Brad Frost: For me it took a while

1388
01:03:04,980 --> 01:03:10,260
'cause I did go deep into a
realm and I continue to feel that

1389
01:03:10,260 --> 01:03:14,370
gravitational pull of, this is what
people expect of me or this is this

1390
01:03:14,370 --> 01:03:17,890
thing and it's the thing that's,
feeding my family and the rest of it.

1391
01:03:17,950 --> 01:03:25,100
And so even though I have these
interests, I would not allow myself to,

1392
01:03:25,100 --> 01:03:29,510
to fully act on it or embrace it fully.

1393
01:03:29,630 --> 01:03:32,340
Brendan Dawes: And is that a
decision that makes you happy or not?

1394
01:03:33,175 --> 01:03:38,365
Brad Frost: I will say that I'm now
in a place that is maybe a little

1395
01:03:38,365 --> 01:03:40,425
closer to what you've been describing

1396
01:03:40,891 --> 01:03:41,161
Brendan Dawes: Yeah,

1397
01:03:41,271 --> 01:03:45,346
Brad Frost: For the longest time,
I wouldn't dare call myself an

1398
01:03:45,531 --> 01:03:50,471
It's aside from just being, doing
that stuff on the side and for

1399
01:03:50,471 --> 01:03:52,881
fun, I didn't go to art school

1400
01:03:52,916 --> 01:03:53,096
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

1401
01:03:53,340 --> 01:03:58,600
Brad Frost: in my, In my level of
like deep expertise I didn't feel that

1402
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:02,640
imposter syndrome, but I was like, even
being a musician, I'm like yeah, I like

1403
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:06,940
play music, but I don't know if I would
really call myself a proper musician or

1404
01:04:06,940 --> 01:04:08,920
a proper artist or a proper whatever.

1405
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:12,880
Allow myself all of that stuff, all of

1406
01:04:13,035 --> 01:04:13,425
Brendan Dawes: Right.

1407
01:04:13,450 --> 01:04:18,610
Brad Frost: The other vast creative
landscape in, because I was

1408
01:04:18,610 --> 01:04:23,010
like I am this and the path has
kind of, led me down this road

1409
01:04:23,205 --> 01:04:23,485
Brendan Dawes: yeah,

1410
01:04:23,781 --> 01:04:25,941
Brad Frost: Kind of at
the expense of the others.

1411
01:04:25,941 --> 01:04:31,136
But just now, as in two days ago I'm
no longer gonna be doing client work

1412
01:04:32,166 --> 01:04:36,166
the digital realm anymore, which
does, it just opens the door too

1413
01:04:36,316 --> 01:04:36,526
Brendan Dawes: Wow.

1414
01:04:36,596 --> 01:04:37,076
Brad Frost: to

1415
01:04:37,126 --> 01:04:37,396
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1416
01:04:37,526 --> 01:04:38,186
Brad Frost: what can

1417
01:04:38,566 --> 01:04:38,956
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1418
01:04:39,126 --> 01:04:39,396
Brad Frost: Yeah.

1419
01:04:39,396 --> 01:04:44,166
So to hear you just describing your
path to just allowing it all in

1420
01:04:44,786 --> 01:04:45,176
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1421
01:04:46,436 --> 01:04:46,676
Yeah.

1422
01:04:46,676 --> 01:04:48,086
And there is, reality

1423
01:04:48,276 --> 01:04:48,606
Brad Frost: Helpful.

1424
01:04:49,016 --> 01:04:52,336
Brendan Dawes: In course it does,
like I said at the time, I had to be

1425
01:04:52,336 --> 01:04:54,736
able to buy a house and, get married.

1426
01:04:54,736 --> 01:05:00,221
And so I took a really terrible job,
that I did for, I thought I was gonna be

1427
01:05:00,221 --> 01:05:01,931
there a week and I was there eight years.

1428
01:05:01,931 --> 01:05:07,541
You, as long as you don't lose that
thought of, I'm gonna get out of here.

1429
01:05:08,301 --> 01:05:12,091
And the thing was when I left that
factory, I still remember this moment.

1430
01:05:12,586 --> 01:05:16,696
I, left and on the foreman, it was,
I'd been working with for years.

1431
01:05:17,416 --> 01:05:19,696
All he said to me was, you'll be back.

1432
01:05:20,416 --> 01:05:21,586
That's all he said to me.

1433
01:05:22,586 --> 01:05:23,066
Not even in a,

1434
01:05:23,226 --> 01:05:23,556
Brad Frost: sounds

1435
01:05:23,786 --> 01:05:25,336
That sounds like the most like British

1436
01:05:25,546 --> 01:05:26,086
Brendan Dawes: yeah,

1437
01:05:26,336 --> 01:05:27,686
Brad Frost: uh, factory

1438
01:05:27,826 --> 01:05:29,016
stereotype I've ever.

1439
01:05:29,101 --> 01:05:29,431
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1440
01:05:30,476 --> 01:05:33,906
And I was just like, okay and
of course, but you know what

1441
01:05:33,956 --> 01:05:37,436
there's a bit of me sometimes
where I have a false memory going.

1442
01:05:37,916 --> 01:05:38,846
Did I go back?

1443
01:05:39,356 --> 01:05:42,206
And of course sometimes I
have to ask, did I go back?

1444
01:05:42,206 --> 01:05:47,006
And they went, no, but there's like a
false memory start in there somewhere

1445
01:05:47,006 --> 01:05:48,226
of I think I did go back there.

1446
01:05:48,346 --> 01:05:52,946
I didn't, but yeah, so because, it was
just that, born from jealousy or whatever,

1447
01:05:52,946 --> 01:05:57,006
or God, someone's got out of here rather
than going, good luck, you just said that.

1448
01:05:57,006 --> 01:06:01,206
But anyway, but so you just you and
that, that would then drive you on

1449
01:06:01,206 --> 01:06:03,056
to go I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this.

1450
01:06:03,106 --> 01:06:06,506
But yeah, a lot of my stuff has
been, I always say it's predicated

1451
01:06:06,506 --> 01:06:09,916
on the generosity of others,
people have given me chances.

1452
01:06:10,936 --> 01:06:14,761
Whether it's oh, they've given me a room
so I could attend a conference in New

1453
01:06:14,761 --> 01:06:18,766
York or speak at that conference, I could
room with them, or, things like that.

1454
01:06:18,816 --> 01:06:22,226
Yeah, you've always gotta be and then
you try and, give that back, and try and,

1455
01:06:22,676 --> 01:06:22,966
Brad Frost: Yeah.

1456
01:06:23,076 --> 01:06:25,336
Brendan Dawes: Help people when
you're in that position to do

1457
01:06:25,336 --> 01:06:27,136
but there was no plan as such.

1458
01:06:27,526 --> 01:06:28,276
Yeah, for sure.

1459
01:06:29,771 --> 01:06:30,341
Brad Frost: Yeah.

1460
01:06:30,401 --> 01:06:30,851
Yeah.

1461
01:06:30,981 --> 01:06:36,861
And again, getting
comfortable with that idea.

1462
01:06:37,191 --> 01:06:43,031
'cause at the end of the day, so many
people are like, that person's got it all

1463
01:06:43,261 --> 01:06:43,551
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1464
01:06:44,021 --> 01:06:44,411
Brad Frost: And it's

1465
01:06:44,596 --> 01:06:44,776
Brendan Dawes: No,

1466
01:06:44,891 --> 01:06:46,151
Brad Frost: dude, every, everybody

1467
01:06:46,306 --> 01:06:47,446
Brendan Dawes: yeah, absolutely.

1468
01:06:48,161 --> 01:06:49,901
Brad Frost: winging it
at the end of the day.

1469
01:06:50,116 --> 01:06:50,506
Brendan Dawes: You're right.

1470
01:06:50,531 --> 01:06:51,281
Brad Frost: You do, you just

1471
01:06:51,316 --> 01:06:51,466
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1472
01:06:51,521 --> 01:06:54,691
Brad Frost: Get comfortable with
that discomfort and just go forward,

1473
01:06:54,691 --> 01:06:56,221
let the curiosity guide you.

1474
01:06:56,221 --> 01:07:02,006
But also at a personal level, let
yourself be your full self and to not

1475
01:07:02,006 --> 01:07:05,220
go, we'd love to do the this, you know,

1476
01:07:05,375 --> 01:07:05,665
Brendan Dawes: Yeah,

1477
01:07:05,700 --> 01:07:09,660
Brad Frost: a through Z
but, know, do duty calls.

1478
01:07:09,660 --> 01:07:10,170
Again that's

1479
01:07:10,220 --> 01:07:10,520
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

1480
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:13,320
Brad Frost: but that doesn't
mean that you actually shut

1481
01:07:13,370 --> 01:07:13,760
Brendan Dawes: no.

1482
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:16,740
Brad Frost: it might mean that it's
like on ice or it might mean that's

1483
01:07:16,740 --> 01:07:20,650
not what you're gonna be doing for a
living or but there's a big difference

1484
01:07:20,650 --> 01:07:22,390
between going, ah, yeah, I can't

1485
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:22,680
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

1486
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:25,000
Brad Frost: there, I can't
prioritize that right now.

1487
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:27,150
But don't like fully chop

1488
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:27,770
Brendan Dawes: No, definitely

1489
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:27,930
Brad Frost: I

1490
01:07:28,100 --> 01:07:28,370
Brendan Dawes: not.

1491
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:28,800
Brad Frost: think that

1492
01:07:28,900 --> 01:07:29,260
Idea.

1493
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:30,270
Brendan Dawes: I agree.

1494
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:30,660
Yeah.

1495
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:32,855
Brad Frost: Brendan, this
has been awesome, man.

1496
01:07:32,855 --> 01:07:33,155
Thank

1497
01:07:33,220 --> 01:07:33,400
Brendan Dawes: Oh,

1498
01:07:33,545 --> 01:07:33,875
Brad Frost: so

1499
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:34,060
Brendan Dawes: you.

1500
01:07:34,335 --> 01:07:35,175
Brad Frost: For taking the time.

1501
01:07:35,215 --> 01:07:36,805
I've been thinking about you so much.

1502
01:07:36,835 --> 01:07:41,430
Like, Before even the Eno movie, I've been
thinking about you in this moment in time,

1503
01:07:41,510 --> 01:07:47,060
like that fluidity between, stitching the
different mediums and the different things

1504
01:07:47,060 --> 01:07:51,370
together in like cool and creative ways,
and like ending up with oh man, yeah.

1505
01:07:51,470 --> 01:07:52,820
Oh, that works like that.

1506
01:07:52,910 --> 01:07:53,690
That shouldn't work.

1507
01:07:53,690 --> 01:07:54,740
But that freaking works.

1508
01:07:54,740 --> 01:07:55,460
That's amazing.

1509
01:07:55,825 --> 01:07:56,185
Brendan Dawes: Thank you.

1510
01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:58,500
Brad Frost: As it's all
been just these, yeah.

1511
01:07:58,535 --> 01:07:58,895
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1512
01:07:59,015 --> 01:07:59,225
Yeah.

1513
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:01,470
Brad Frost: one thing up to
another, I'm like, oh, Brendan.

1514
01:08:01,790 --> 01:08:05,690
So by the time I had that moment
watching the film, I was just

1515
01:08:05,690 --> 01:08:07,330
like, oh my God, we gotta catch up.

1516
01:08:07,380 --> 01:08:08,010
Brendan Dawes: Oh, thank you.

1517
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:11,410
It's been an absolute pleasure and it's
great to hear, the stuff you are doing

1518
01:08:11,410 --> 01:08:14,500
and the stuff you're putting out there
and the thinking, I think it's great.

1519
01:08:15,130 --> 01:08:16,210
So keep it coming man.

1520
01:08:16,270 --> 01:08:16,900
Brad Frost: Thank you.

1521
01:08:16,930 --> 01:08:17,440
Thank you.

1522
01:08:17,540 --> 01:08:18,710
Plenty of inspiration to

1523
01:08:18,770 --> 01:08:20,320
So you keep doing your things.

1524
01:08:20,320 --> 01:08:21,610
I'm looking forward to, to see you.

1525
01:08:22,870 --> 01:08:24,220
Screaming at the next

1526
01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:26,810
or, whatever's to come.

1527
01:08:27,020 --> 01:08:29,000
Or maybe the robot that comes to

1528
01:08:29,136 --> 01:08:29,631
Brendan Dawes: yeah, Yeah.

1529
01:08:29,911 --> 01:08:30,241
Brad Frost: uh,

1530
01:08:30,381 --> 01:08:31,221
Brendan Dawes: I have my face on.

1531
01:08:31,681 --> 01:08:32,011
Brad Frost: on it.

1532
01:08:32,031 --> 01:08:32,301
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1533
01:08:33,751 --> 01:08:38,591
Brad Frost: So the only structure to the
show is just the first question and this

1534
01:08:38,591 --> 01:08:43,271
one, which is what music would you love
more people to, to know about to listen

1535
01:08:43,531 --> 01:08:43,741
Brendan Dawes: Okay.

1536
01:08:43,901 --> 01:08:45,761
I've got some vinyl just here, right?

1537
01:08:45,791 --> 01:08:46,781
So should I plug

1538
01:08:46,971 --> 01:08:47,511
Brad Frost: please.

1539
01:08:47,651 --> 01:08:47,921
Brendan Dawes: Okay.

1540
01:08:48,371 --> 01:08:51,706
So let me just, I grab a
load, see what we've got.

1541
01:08:53,716 --> 01:08:55,006
Loads of Pro Train, right?

1542
01:08:55,056 --> 01:08:55,596
Okay.

1543
01:08:57,636 --> 01:09:00,846
It's probably the Best Jam
album, the Sound Effect.

1544
01:09:00,846 --> 01:09:02,406
Sound Effects by the Jam.

1545
01:09:02,671 --> 01:09:03,391
Brad Frost: Okay.

1546
01:09:03,706 --> 01:09:08,366
Brendan Dawes: Paul Weller and on the
is start, and that's Entertainment,

1547
01:09:08,366 --> 01:09:11,666
probably the best, couple of the
best songs that Jam ever did.

1548
01:09:12,206 --> 01:09:15,086
These are all like, I'm not gonna
give you any new stuff, by the way.

1549
01:09:15,416 --> 01:09:17,396
So Human League Dare.

1550
01:09:17,966 --> 01:09:18,386
Yeah.

1551
01:09:18,561 --> 01:09:19,671
Brad Frost: Hell, oh man.

1552
01:09:19,746 --> 01:09:20,236
Figured

1553
01:09:20,486 --> 01:09:23,936
Brendan Dawes: So Sound of the Crowd still
one of the best songs I've ever love.

1554
01:09:23,936 --> 01:09:26,156
Action fleet with Matt, get Out.

1555
01:09:26,216 --> 01:09:27,356
I don't know why that's in there.

1556
01:09:27,566 --> 01:09:28,226
No, it's good.

1557
01:09:28,296 --> 01:09:29,286
James Brown.

1558
01:09:29,676 --> 01:09:35,166
So this is the one with funky drummer
on it as you, I no doubt know.

1559
01:09:36,051 --> 01:09:38,601
But that is quite a hard
album to get a hold of, right?

1560
01:09:39,051 --> 01:09:40,101
What else have I got?

1561
01:09:40,431 --> 01:09:44,721
I've got one that came today, so I
try and buy the original pressing.

1562
01:09:44,771 --> 01:09:46,691
And I've got a very eclectic taste.

1563
01:09:46,991 --> 01:09:50,291
So I've got like Sister
Sledge, we, our family.

1564
01:09:50,921 --> 01:09:54,101
This is the one with he's the
greatest dancer, probably the

1565
01:09:54,101 --> 01:09:56,051
best dance record ever made.

1566
01:09:56,561 --> 01:10:00,251
The worst dance record ever made is,
how Will I Know By Whitney Houston?

1567
01:10:00,611 --> 01:10:02,141
That's a pile of dog shit.

1568
01:10:02,441 --> 01:10:08,321
So anyway and then, ha, so I've also
got, now let's talk more British bands.

1569
01:10:08,321 --> 01:10:10,211
Suede Dog, man, star.

1570
01:10:10,751 --> 01:10:11,951
This is the masterpiece.

1571
01:10:12,551 --> 01:10:13,661
That's a masterpiece.

1572
01:10:13,871 --> 01:10:16,961
So that's the best album suede ever made.

1573
01:10:17,501 --> 01:10:20,501
I'm ruining the order of these
order these albums, by the way.

1574
01:10:20,811 --> 01:10:22,336
The best print, my favorite print.

1575
01:10:22,396 --> 01:10:24,116
Brad Frost: how do you
usually have a ordered?

1576
01:10:24,171 --> 01:10:26,061
Brendan Dawes: I have
them ordered by artist.

1577
01:10:26,061 --> 01:10:30,771
So I have it all in Discogs 'cause I'm a
geek and I have, and then it gives me the

1578
01:10:30,771 --> 01:10:34,041
order and the the one of the best album.

1579
01:10:34,731 --> 01:10:35,151
Yeah.

1580
01:10:35,841 --> 01:10:37,581
I Wanna Be A Lover is an amazing,

1581
01:10:38,601 --> 01:10:39,991
Brad Frost: that's what, all princes.

1582
01:10:40,071 --> 01:10:41,151
I think that he really.

1583
01:10:41,976 --> 01:10:46,776
Underscores the point of being
able to embrace new technology

1584
01:10:46,861 --> 01:10:51,641
Just master it and the art is enhanced by

1585
01:10:51,681 --> 01:10:51,981
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

1586
01:10:52,851 --> 01:10:54,171
He was, I just,

1587
01:10:54,406 --> 01:10:54,586
Brad Frost: it.

1588
01:10:54,586 --> 01:10:58,006
Brendan Dawes: He wrote it, produced
it, played it, all his, it's just,

1589
01:10:58,716 --> 01:10:58,836
Brad Frost: stunning.

1590
01:10:59,026 --> 01:10:59,926
Brendan Dawes: bogles my mind.

1591
01:10:59,926 --> 01:11:00,286
But yeah.

1592
01:11:00,286 --> 01:11:04,656
So that's some of, see if there's anything
else that's particularly interesting.

1593
01:11:05,226 --> 01:11:05,466
Yeah.

1594
01:11:05,466 --> 01:11:06,516
Talking Head remain.

1595
01:11:06,546 --> 01:11:08,976
Oh, I got a, got a shout out, aren't we?

1596
01:11:09,756 --> 01:11:10,836
The undertones.

1597
01:11:11,596 --> 01:11:11,886
Brad Frost: Yeah.

1598
01:11:11,956 --> 01:11:16,336
Brendan Dawes: first album, and this
has got all the amazing songs on it.

1599
01:11:16,916 --> 01:11:18,666
Jimmy stuff like that.

1600
01:11:18,666 --> 01:11:23,796
It hasn't got Teenage Kicks, so Teenage
Kicks came out as a single, and then

1601
01:11:23,796 --> 01:11:25,896
they put it on the album after it.

1602
01:11:26,586 --> 01:11:29,316
But yeah, so anyway,
bit of geeky trivia that

1603
01:11:29,461 --> 01:11:31,311
Brad Frost: you, did you
have to play it cool?

1604
01:11:31,311 --> 01:11:33,671
Like how did you play it with Brian Eno?

1605
01:11:34,151 --> 01:11:37,371
Just from a, someone
who really appreciates

1606
01:11:37,806 --> 01:11:39,396
It's you got the records on the shelf.

1607
01:11:39,396 --> 01:11:41,556
Like how did you, how did that go?

1608
01:11:41,586 --> 01:11:41,796
Were

1609
01:11:42,041 --> 01:11:42,311
Brendan Dawes: yeah.

1610
01:11:42,311 --> 01:11:44,411
No, we didn't really
talk about music as such.

1611
01:11:44,461 --> 01:11:48,001
I was kind slightly in awe of
him, but we just talked as normal

1612
01:11:48,001 --> 01:11:52,071
people, we were just yeah, and
he's just, he's such a lovely guy.

1613
01:11:52,071 --> 01:11:53,481
He is just very down to earth.

1614
01:11:54,001 --> 01:11:54,391
Brad Frost: Yeah,

1615
01:11:54,696 --> 01:11:56,616
Brendan Dawes: a lot of these
people are, it's usually the people

1616
01:11:56,616 --> 01:11:59,436
around them that are not great.

1617
01:11:59,551 --> 01:12:00,061
Brad Frost: yeah.

1618
01:12:00,121 --> 01:12:00,691
That's right.

1619
01:12:00,761 --> 01:12:04,271
Once those kind of like walls come
up that imbalance that gets in the

1620
01:12:04,391 --> 01:12:05,561
Of the collaboration.

1621
01:12:05,561 --> 01:12:08,741
I think especially it's, it is
if you're able to like, translate

1622
01:12:08,741 --> 01:12:11,911
it into like the respect that
doesn't even need to be spoken

1623
01:12:12,011 --> 01:12:12,301
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1624
01:12:12,481 --> 01:12:14,101
Brad Frost: then you're
just able to get on with

1625
01:12:14,226 --> 01:12:14,616
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1626
01:12:14,731 --> 01:12:15,181
Brad Frost: So

1627
01:12:15,306 --> 01:12:15,846
Brendan Dawes: Definitely.

1628
01:12:16,021 --> 01:12:17,161
Brad Frost: that's freaking awesome.

1629
01:12:17,281 --> 01:12:18,061
Oh, amazing.

1630
01:12:18,331 --> 01:12:18,781
All right.

1631
01:12:18,781 --> 01:12:22,441
Dude, thank you so much for that tour
and for the system behind the tour.

1632
01:12:22,441 --> 01:12:27,361
That's and I guess like the last thing
is if people wanna follow along with you,

1633
01:12:27,361 --> 01:12:29,071
like where's the best place that you're

1634
01:12:29,071 --> 01:12:29,361
Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

1635
01:12:29,581 --> 01:12:31,201
Brad Frost: that you're most active?

1636
01:12:31,336 --> 01:12:34,581
Brendan Dawes: I have I update
my blog pretty much every week.

1637
01:12:34,581 --> 01:12:36,041
So I write up what I'm doing.

1638
01:12:36,161 --> 01:12:42,731
I try and some weeks I miss, but like
you, I try and keep my website, it's my

1639
01:12:42,731 --> 01:12:44,991
own no one can tell me what to write.

1640
01:12:45,471 --> 01:12:48,141
It's just mine and no one can turn it off.

1641
01:12:48,291 --> 01:12:49,611
So it's really important.

1642
01:12:49,671 --> 01:12:53,181
Everyone should have their own
website, so it's very important.

1643
01:12:53,331 --> 01:12:57,338
Um, So there, brendandawes.com,
but also just brendandawes

1644
01:12:57,718 --> 01:12:59,128
all one word on Instagram.

1645
01:12:59,778 --> 01:13:00,468
Follow me there.

1646
01:13:00,468 --> 01:13:05,848
'cause I constantly post experiments and
stuff and blue sky come on there as well.

1647
01:13:05,848 --> 01:13:08,158
So yeah, those are the main things.

1648
01:13:08,573 --> 01:13:09,143
Brad Frost: beautiful.

1649
01:13:09,953 --> 01:13:10,433
Awesome.

1650
01:13:10,583 --> 01:13:12,733
Brendann, I can't thank
you enough for talking.

1651
01:13:12,733 --> 01:13:15,763
This has been like an
absolute treat, so thank you.

1652
01:13:15,888 --> 01:13:16,308
Brendan Dawes: Pleasure.

1653
01:13:16,308 --> 01:13:19,308
The pleasure's been all been
mine and thanks for inviting me.

1654
01:13:19,323 --> 01:13:24,073
I saw the one with Marc and I was like,
I'd love to do that one with Brad.

1655
01:13:24,103 --> 01:13:26,533
'cause it's such a
great conversationalist.

1656
01:13:26,653 --> 01:13:26,983
Yeah.

1657
01:13:27,263 --> 01:13:27,563
Yeah.

1658
01:13:27,563 --> 01:13:28,913
I'm glad we got to do it, man.

1659
01:13:30,258 --> 01:13:30,978
Brad Frost: Appreciate it.

1660
01:13:31,008 --> 01:13:33,663
Thank you and thanks everybody
for listed, so take care.