Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello and welcome, Julia and Barbara.
I'm excited to have you here.
We've been trying to arrange this for a while, but it's not that easy between
three and different countries and all.
So welcome.
Lovely to have you here.
So why don't we start out and I'll hand over the mic to both of you
to just quickly introduce yourself and then the good old question.
What's your business with dogs?
Excellent.
Julia: Well, I'm Julia Hawkins and this is Barbara Patterson.
And between us, we're barking up the right tree.
I love it.
Love the title.
Barbara, do you want to start talking about how it all happened?
Because you were the one that started it, weren't you?
Oh, it's all your fault then.
Yeah, it is.
Anke: Totally her
Barbara: fault.
Right.
So, um, so I live in Namibia, which is, uh, uh, country in Southern Africa on the
Southwest, um, side of this big continent.
And I've been a dog trainer for years and, um, been trying to expand my reach
and realized, um, that all the online, you know, that, you know, working online.
Um, it's fun.
I really enjoy it, but I was a bit tired of always doing everything just on my own.
Um, I've, I mean, I can, you know, I have a history of doing a lot of things
for the first time in a place and so on and always, always just on my own.
And I really didn't want to do it on my own.
And so Julia and I knew each other, uh, met in a, um, in a business group,
actually, in a dog, for dog trainers.
And.
Lit.
I literally woke up one morning thinking, Julia, I'm going to talk to Julia.
I think we had at that point, done the odd Facebook live together.
Julia: Yeah.
We had, haven't we?
Yeah.
At that point.
Yeah.
Barbara: Yeah.
And uh, yeah, so then I just sent a message over to Julia to say, Hey,
do you feel like doing this thing?
Julia: And that was what that was.
August 2023, wasn't it?
End of August 2023.
Um, and then what we did from there is we planned, um, an amazing free
festival for owners of Reactive Dogs, where we brought together, was it 33
of the world's, like, top experts.
It was, it was brilliant, wasn't it?
Anke: I think that's how I found you.
I think before, before we sort of go there, I'm still a little bit curious,
like, what, out of all the people that were in that group, why Julia?
What drew you to her specifically?
I'd like to know this too.
Barbara: So, um, you know, I, I'm a Buddhist, so I, I chant Nam myoho
renge kyo, uh, every morning, evening, so specifically in the mornings very
much to like make the best of the day, and I kind of had this, I just
had this wish, you know, to be able to share the excitement, the, the
planning, the, the bouncing of ideas, all the things when you do a project.
with another person, um, to have somebody to really do that with.
And I think that there was no, you know, there was no real sort of, Oh,
should it be this person or that person?
It wasn't really a selection process.
That was just, I literally woke up one morning and I thought,
I'm going to reach out to Julia.
It was, it was literally just popped up and I, I believe it was a response to
my pulling this out into the universe.
This is my person.
And, uh, and it was Julia.
And it, and I wasn't wrong, was I?
No, apparently not, right?
You're here.
No, we haven't had a moment of Um, disagreement or no?
Well, no, no, no.
Look, we don't always agree a hundred percent on how we wanna
do things, but, um, we don't, uh, argue about it, you know?
No, we don't an argument ever.
We just talk about it.
And if one of us says, no, I don't think so, then, oh, that's interesting.
You know, tell me why.
And then we, we make a plan together.
And I think that's sort of the, the ticket to success too, right?
Because, because of that, we are better, you know, there's always.
the other perspective and it never gets boring.
Julia: That's
Barbara: for
Julia: sure.
Barbara: And we really, um, yeah, we're really swimming in the
right, in the same direction.
Anke: So Barking Up the Right Tree.
I mean, that's such a cool name.
Um, I, I do recall discovering you through that festival.
So you, is that the only event you host?
Is that a regular event?
And of course, what else are you doing under that umbrella?
Julia: Well, the festival was, as you know, huge.
It was, and it's still available.
So, and it's still totally free.
So, um, we'll give some details if people want to.
It's still
Barbara: totally worth it, right?
Yeah,
Julia: it's, it's, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I think we're both so massively proud of
what we achieved then because it was just bigger, more comprehensive, more holistic
than things that have been done before.
So is it going to be a regular thing?
Well, no, not on that scale.
Um, I think we would both have tiny little nervous breakdowns and probably
be gibbering wrecks in corners if we did that every year or anything like that.
I think we'll probably do something on a slightly smaller
scale at some point, similar.
Um, But we do still have loads of other stuff going on, um, which is
to do with, um, Reactive Dogs and specifically their owners as well,
because that's one of the things we think is so crucial, is that it's about
the partnership and it's about both ends of the lead and how important that is.
Um, so, you know, we've got a really, we've got an amazing Facebook group, which
people are very welcome to come and join.
Which we'll give you the details of that when it's appropriate as well.
Um, and we do, you know, we do little free challenges and
all sorts of stuff like that.
And then we also run courses as well.
Um, which is based around, you know, our ethos of, you know,
partnership, positivity, looking after the human as well as the dog,
um, and, and all that kind of stuff.
So.
Anke: Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
And reactivity, it's such a, it's like such a perfect topic in the
sense that I think a lot of, I mean, I've hosted a summit last night.
Mine wasn't that big.
I only had 12 speakers, but, um, you know, have been doing like
masterclasses every once ever since.
So there's been like, and every time I ask people like, what are
you most curious to learn about?
You know, and somehow reactivity comes up time, like it's a real, seems
to be a massive, a massive issue.
So it's one of those topics that's precise and broad at the same time, right?
It's, what, what's your, your take on, uh, I don't know, do you think it's, It
feels to me like as if it's kind of almost like an epidemic, like it gets worse.
Is that your perception as well?
And if somebody goes, yeah, my dog is doing like, what's the thing, you
know, where do you suggest they start other than joining your Facebook group?
Barbara: I don't know.
It could, I mean, I know there are people that have, uh, you know,
opinion or that it is getting stronger for various reasons.
Um, and that might be.
You know, from, from breeding to, um, you know, people's lifestyles
post, and then also the whole post pandemic, lockdown and all those things.
So that may be true.
I also think that, um, you know, uh,
There is also a good side to this, I think.
You know, as a Buddhist, I always try to see both sides of the coin, right?
So I think the good message here is that maybe also more people are increasingly
aware of how their dogs feel, right?
So that when they overreact, that it's not simply, um, a question of my dog is
disobedient or my dog is, um, You know, I don't know how to control the dog,
but really wanting to help the dog, but feeling helpless at the same time, because
emotional, I mean, we know emotional stuff is hard to deal with, you know,
between in any relationship, you know, between any two beings, so whether they're
human, both humans or different species.
So I want to believe that that is part of that
Julia: picture, for sure.
I think I'd agree with that, and I think It's quite an exciting
time really, I think, in the dog behaviour world, worldwide.
Um, in that there's this, there's a real shift that started away from obedience,
um, and more towards welfare and, um, and care, um, and that kind of thing.
And that's something that we're very much, you know, want to be at the forefront of.
Um, and, and I think
What we're seeing with people is, is in the past where it's been very
much about obedience is, is trying to fit this different species.
They may have lived with us for 40, 000 or however many years, um, but
there's still a different species and we're trying to put them into this
increasingly complex human world, um, which is really, really difficult
and people are starting to notice.
Actually, that's actually quite hard for the dog, as well as that being
hard for the human, and starting to look at it from the dog's perspective.
And I think that, for me, that's a really great starting point, is understanding
where the dog's coming from, because the behavior is always going to be
driven by how the dog's feeling.
Um, and if you can start understanding that dog's point of view, then, you
know, you're part way there already and it's a brilliant foundation
for you to kind of move on from.
Anke: I love that.
I think maybe even in, in the light of that, like maybe it
hasn't even gotten worse at all.
It's just, we're more aware of it and, and approach it from a, do you
see there's like, because you're in two different countries, right?
So do you find any Any differences there?
Because like, say I'm based in Spain, so, but I'm from Germany.
So I see a massive difference there in, in the core attitude towards dogs,
like what's expected, what isn't.
Say the germ in Germany, it's very much like, even if I look, talk to my parents,
right, so it's like, no, no, the dog needs to, you know, so this is how you do it and
sit and plats and, you know, it needs to be all nice and orderly and disciplined,
whereas in Spain, yeah, nobody really.
gives a shit, but at the same time they're also quite happy to consider themselves
dog lover when they have the dog chained up on a little thing outside, you know,
and don't see anything wrong with it.
So, and I think the approaches you would take and how you
reach people would be different.
So is that, is there something that you observe from the, you know,
the clients you work with that are in the countries you're in or
Julia: It is interesting because there are differences that we've come across.
So things like, um, what's normal in terms of leaving your dog outside, for example.
So in this country, it's not the done thing to leave your dog out in the garden.
It's not the done thing.
Where Barbara is, it's much more of a done thing to do that.
Um, which then you've got different, slightly different challenges then.
Um, although to be honest, in terms from a behavioural perspective, you
can approach the challenges very much from the, from a similar place.
Um, if you understand what's going on from the dog's
perspective, which is interesting.
But I, I know, and I, I would imagine it's probably similar.
to Germany in the UK, in that there's kind of, there's two schools of thought.
There's still people who have that old school, the dog needs to do exactly as
I say, and you know, the dog is being bad and needs to know right from wrong,
and all that kind of stuff, which we know, actually isn't how dogs work.
Um, but there's a lot more now, people.
We've got, you know, we are lucky here, I think, in that we do have, you
know, um, owners who are becoming quite enlightened and, and are really keen
to, as I say, dig into that, uh, seeing things from the dog's perspective.
So I think within the countries
as well, you see those
Barbara: differences as well.
What do
Julia: you see?
I think
Barbara: in Namibia, a positive And, you know, positive reinforcement
based animal training methods are still very much underrepresented.
So it's not easy to find professional services.
Um, you know, if you, if you struggle, if you want anything, and then
that the choice is really limited.
And then also in the, you know, the sort of common perspective is that, you
know, reward and punishment, you know, if the dog doesn't listen, we have to.
Use punishment so they understand if, you know, that they do something wrong.
And that, I mean, I know that that is very white, that is everywhere, right?
But, um, the problem that we have here, I think, is that it's, you know, so few
trainers in the first place, and then therefore also only, you know, even less
that work with force free methods, and even less that really want to, um, yeah,
look at, look at the emotional world, you know, that open, you know, that.
In a way we, you know, part, partly share, you know?
Yeah.
Um, so yeah.
Yeah.
So it's, it's very, very interesting
Anke: for sure.
. Mm, I bet it's, it's quite the, yeah.
I think you, you are mentioning, uh, the, the, the, what I just heard was that piece
said there isn't even that much awareness.
Like if people don't even, you know, well there aren't many trainers, but I would
imagine they're probably also not that many people even looking for support.
Because you know how you say it's like it's not it's not what what you don't
know that gets you into trouble is what you think you what you think you know
for sure, you know, and that's the same.
I mean, I don't want to throw my dad under the bus here because he's
definitely not not not an asshole with dogs like he is, but he has the
idea of what should be and but and and that's the thing he would never do.
like look for anything in in terms of dog because he thinks he knows.
Barbara: Yeah, yeah, you're quite right.
So the quick fix, right?
I mean, I know that dog trainers all over the world struggle with the
quick fix mentality in Perspective clients or, you know, not even,
um, and I totally see that.
I mean, people want help.
Yes, but it's supposed to be really quick.
And most of them don't even think that it's worth paying for.
Julia: So,
Barbara: um, you know, just tell me.
You know, give me some tips and I'll fix it and, um, and, and
that's the majority for sure.
Julia: But I think that's something that's common because, you know, we
work with people all over the world and it's something that's common everywhere.
Anke: So tell me a bit more about, uh, the programs you offer and the courses
and the stuff that you've got going on.
That's a very
Julia: interesting question, Anke, because we're just working on a restructure
and a relaunch of some of our core courses, which we are very excited about.
So it's actually a really cool time to, to kind of join with us really,
because that's all going to be new and shiny and exciting and stuff.
So, Anke.
And hopefully, you know,
Barbara: being able to help more people and more dogs.
And yeah, because we, we, um, it's sort of on the, after the festival, we
launched, um, our flagship program and the reactivity reboot, which was, Or
which is like a really comprehensive, long ish, 12 week program, you know,
looking at reactivity from all angles.
And we had massive, we've done versions of this before, so we have,
you know, massive success with it, with the people that joined it.
But we also, Realized that it, it was a big, a big step for people to take, right?
Yeah.
Time commitment, financial commitment.
It's a big program.
Not everybody wanted everything that we were offering.
People's always, you know, we would, we would hear, Oh, I would love to do
this, but I just can't do it right now.
So then we really, um, I went back to the drawing board to think how can we, how
can we do this and open it up for more people and it was, that was one of the
areas where we really had to have a lot of conversations, Julia and I, because I was
very much set against doing anything that didn't involve a huge amount of support.
So we, you know, we teach a lot via Zoom and the community
element is really important.
We really love that, both of us, but we also realized that
not everybody wants that.
You know, there is a large number of owners who really just want to
get the information and work with the information and their dog.
And then if they get stuck, maybe reach out for additional support.
And that meant rethinking how we're offering.
Our program, isn't it, Julia?
Absolutely.
How is it
Anke: different now?
Julia: We've chunked it.
So the online element is I was going to say it has been but that's not true.
It is being at the moment while we're recording this
Barbara: we're getting there.
Julia: It's been chunked into pieces.
The elements are from the reactivity reboot, plus some extra bits
that we're putting in as well.
Um, we're splitting down into sort of modules.
We're sort of, it's like a modular sort of thing.
So there'll be a foundation, um, essentials, starting point,
which, you know, if you have a reactive dog, regardless, is
going to be brilliant for you.
And then we start focusing in on other different things.
Barbara: Yeah.
Julia: So
Barbara: the essentials bit, I mean, a lot of people just with those lessons
will have a huge amount of relief.
And absolutely some dogs, that's all you have to do, right?
Give them a reset, put in some strategic manage management.
Check for health issues, you know, and learn to really observe your dog
and be able to, um, understand their body language so that you can step
in when they need support, right?
And for a lot of dogs that's all, that's all you need, right?
And then, but then we want to you know, Also help the people
that have very specific problems.
So if somebody has leash reactivity, for example, you know, then we
have a whole module that is just honing in on that challenge.
Or reactivity within the home.
So what
Anke: are the different, the most common, I mean, I hear reactivity
and I'm thinking of my dogs kind of, you know, on a walk, like other
dogs, you know, that's my go to.
I know that there's different types.
What, in your experience, are the most common ways, the way this shows up?
Barbara: That is definitely the most common.
That's on it, wouldn't you say?
Yeah.
We did, uh, we did a couple of polls and that was definitely
the number one challenge.
But, You see, the thing is, you don't necessarily address it on a walk,
Julia: right?
Barbara: That's the whole thing with, with reactivity, that you don't
fix the problem when it comes up.
You have to work away from the problem.
You have to, like, extract the, um, all the elements and then
very gently, layer by layer, you know, work on it away from that.
And very often, you, you, that's all it Right.
And, uh, and then the other forms of reactivity that
people come to us with or for.
Might be in the house, you know, excessive biking in the house, or when the mailman
comes, or the UPS truck, the I can't have people come over, my dog turns
into a maniac, um, that sort of thing.
Or it just drives me nuts, I can't think clearly ever, because any little noise
outside my dog bikes, that sort of thing.
Um I think those would be the two big ones.
What do you think, Julia?
Julia: Yeah, definitely.
And we also have people, you know, who have issues when they have multiple dogs.
Oh, yeah.
And issues within the home to do with them.
So that'll be another thing that we'll put on.
But the other part of the program that we're going to have as a bolt on will be
a course all to do with, um, the person, the human, how they can manage how they
feel, um, giving them some real practical strategies, um, because we, we know, don't
we, we know the In theory, how we feel is going to impact our dogs, of course,
but it's all well and good saying that.
But it's much more difficult to actually, you know, you can't just wave
a magic wand and change how you feel.
So that's something that we thought was absolutely crucial.
And then the the the other part of the whole bit package that people can opt into
is a bit more of a membership and that's where they're going to be able to come on
to Zooms with us and get the support in the community and all that kind of stuff.
So that will still be available as well.
Um, so yeah, that's what we've decided.
Anke: Because I think that makes a lot of sense because there's
always in the end, you know, yes, the information is one piece.
But then, you know, like I see it all the time.
It's like, yep, you can have all the information you want, but
unless you actually implement it, that's when the questions come
up and like, what about this?
And what about that?
Like, can it all make sense if you watch a video, you know, or you
read through some stuff until you actually try and do something with it.
You know, I think there's always that.
Julia: And the great thing when people actually are in, you know, this is one
of the reasons we've always enjoyed doing, um, courses where there is that
interactive element is because you get to know the people, you get to know their
dogs, you get to know the patterns, um, so you can really dig into that behavior.
Um, so there's a huge amount of value to be got from that as well.
Yeah, I love that.
Barbara: Yeah.
And I, and I just, uh, what we're hoping is that we can, um, Help more people like
that, you know, because not everybody needs everything and not everybody
knows yet what it is that they need.
So they can just start with a bit, you know, try that out.
Ooh, this is great.
You know, now I want to, you know, focus on another aspect.
And if they, You know, and if somebody feels, oh gosh, I need more
support, then they can, as Julia says, you know, you can, anytime you
can join our membership and join the community and meet other, other people
that have very similar challenges.
And that is really the big part when it comes to overcome, you know,
how many people feel guilty because of their dog's behavior for, yeah.
Anke: And everybody always thinks it's just me, you know, everybody always
like everybody else is the same.
When got this sorted out, I ran a project, a program once, like
not for dogs, a different thing.
But, but I remember when I did feedback calls and I had a lot of live kind
of, you know, co working calls, I come get it done, ask your staff.
And the feedback I got was literally that people said, Oh my God, it was
such a relief to hear other people ask stupid questions, like stupid questions.
Peace.
You know, I thought it was just me.
I thought everybody else had this figured out.
I thought I was the only one who was like overwhelmed and didn't kind of
find, find out how it all fit together.
It's that be not being alone with something.
I think that's, that's big.
Yeah, totally.
Barbara: Yeah, that's huge.
We hear that time and again.
Absolutely.
Anke: So where can people go and connect with you, find out about the new program,
the one you've got, the community and, you know, and even the festival
though, because that was excellent.
So definitely go check that out if you haven't seen it yet.
Julia: So to access the festival, um, and you know, any of our paid courses
as well, um, it's a bit of a mouthful.
You go to www.
Anke: barking
Julia: festival.
org.
Up
the-write-tree.com
and he said dash again.
So that's the website and you can get onto, as I say, you can
get onto the festival there.
Um, and if you sign up for the, first of all, you'll be given sent
links so that you can get onto the Facebook group and stuff as well.
Um, you can go on to fest.
What's the word?
To Facebook as well.
Um, and if you just search on Facebook for Barking Up The Right Tree Reactive
Dog Training Community That'll be us.
Just, just request to be, to be let in.
Now the great thing on the Facebook group, as well as the fact that it
is probably the most supportive dog training group I've ever been in
I've been a member of Nevermind Run.
We've got some awesome members.
Um, but we also, we do a weekly Facebook live where we tackle
various, you know, specific topics.
Um, but we also answer people's questions as well during the lives.
So, um, so people can get a little bit of support that way as well.
Um, and there's, there's loads of training tips in there.
Um, you know, you get weekly training tips, uh, share a little
bit about us and our journeys with our dogs, um, and that kind of thing.
So, yeah, awesome.
Awesome.
Well, we're obviously
Anke: going to pop the, you don't have to remember all of that.
We're going to pop the link and it's like wherever you're watching below
the video in the show notes, if you're listening to the podcast, so
it's not going to be hard to find.
So thank you so much.
This was.
Fabulous.
And, um, yeah, like let's help a whole bunch of people with, with
reactive dogs, because everybody deserves better than that.
Absolutely.
Barbara: The more people we can help, the happier we will become.
Oh, the merrier.
Yep.
Thank you so much Anke.
It's been a real, real fun.
Thank you.
Yes.
Thanks Anke.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.