WEBVTT 00:00:05.150 --> 00:00:08.010 Matt Abrahams: One sure way to connect and to build relationships is to 00:00:08.010 --> 00:00:10.440 bring levity into your communication. 00:00:11.220 --> 00:00:14.970 My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:14.970 --> 00:00:16.740 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:17.040 --> 00:00:19.500 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:21.330 --> 00:00:26.550 I always look forward to interviewing my guests, but today I am super-sized excited 00:00:26.550 --> 00:00:29.010 to be revisited by two guests today. 00:00:29.580 --> 00:00:33.570 Not only are Naomi and Alison fantastic teachers, authors, and 00:00:33.570 --> 00:00:36.270 communicators, they're amazing people. 00:00:36.540 --> 00:00:39.300 And I'm proud to have them as collaborators and friends. 00:00:40.059 --> 00:00:41.139 Alright, enough gushing. 00:00:41.290 --> 00:00:44.480 Let me formally introduce you first to Alison Wood Brooks. 00:00:44.770 --> 00:00:48.680 Alison is the O'Brien Associate Professor of Business Administration and Hellman 00:00:48.699 --> 00:00:50.890 Faculty Fellow at Harvard Business School. 00:00:51.530 --> 00:00:55.209 Alison's research focuses on the science of conversation and 00:00:55.209 --> 00:00:58.855 interaction, and she teaches an award-winning course called Talk. 00:00:59.550 --> 00:01:03.750 Which also happens to be the name of her new book Talk: The Science of Conversation 00:01:03.870 --> 00:01:05.730 and The Art of Being Ourselves. 00:01:06.220 --> 00:01:10.160 Alison is also our first three time guest ever. 00:01:11.090 --> 00:01:14.110 Alison and I today are joined by Naomi Bagdonas. 00:01:14.130 --> 00:01:18.900 Naomi runs her own consulting company where she helps not only organize 00:01:18.900 --> 00:01:22.289 high stakes gatherings, but coaches leaders to be more successful. 00:01:22.590 --> 00:01:26.280 She's coached CEOs and celebrities for media appearances on Saturday 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:27.780 Night Live and The Today Show. 00:01:28.170 --> 00:01:31.200 She trained at the Upright Citizens Brigade Theater and teaches 00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:35.595 courses about humor at the GSB and the San Francisco County Jail. 00:01:35.955 --> 00:01:39.585 Along with Jennifer Aaker, she wrote the only business book I have ever 00:01:39.585 --> 00:01:44.145 learned and laughed through called Humor, Seriously: Why Humor is a 00:01:44.145 --> 00:01:46.274 Secret Weapon in Business and Life. 00:01:46.965 --> 00:01:47.895 Thank you both for joining me. 00:01:47.895 --> 00:01:51.554 This is such a thrill for us to actually be in person together. 00:01:51.554 --> 00:01:53.955 We talk all the time on Zoom and on email. 00:01:53.955 --> 00:01:54.824 It's wonderful. 00:01:55.125 --> 00:01:56.384 So Alison, I'm gonna start with you. 00:01:56.384 --> 00:01:59.185 You are on tour for this awesome book, Talk. 00:01:59.615 --> 00:02:02.850 What has surprised you in terms of what's interested people the most? 00:02:02.850 --> 00:02:04.140 Uh, there's so many good things in here. 00:02:04.140 --> 00:02:06.465 I'm curious what has interested people more than anything else? 00:02:07.185 --> 00:02:09.105 Alison Wood Brooks: The content of the book is based on my 00:02:09.105 --> 00:02:10.995 course, also called Talk. 00:02:10.995 --> 00:02:15.465 And so I've had such a lovely privilege of seeing how a lot of people react 00:02:15.465 --> 00:02:19.215 to this content over many years, and I think the lovely people that I've 00:02:19.215 --> 00:02:23.715 encountered on my book tour are reacting in ways that are similar to how my 00:02:23.715 --> 00:02:25.485 students have reacted to the course. 00:02:25.755 --> 00:02:27.375 A couple things that stand out. 00:02:27.585 --> 00:02:29.355 One is about question asking. 00:02:29.355 --> 00:02:33.605 I think that just is an evergreen topic and skill that 00:02:33.665 --> 00:02:35.555 really resonates with people. 00:02:35.585 --> 00:02:39.935 Both on the asking side, they have so many fears about asking or hesitations, and 00:02:39.935 --> 00:02:44.105 on the receiving end, of annoyance when people don't ask them enough questions. 00:02:44.615 --> 00:02:48.365 And then one other thing that's really stood out to me on book tour is that 00:02:48.365 --> 00:02:53.285 it seems like people really want to get this in the hands of teenagers. 00:02:54.315 --> 00:02:58.365 I know that it's helpful to adults and executives and people who have fully 00:02:58.365 --> 00:03:03.015 developed their conversational skills, but a lot of parents are co-reading the 00:03:03.015 --> 00:03:08.415 book with their teenagers because there seems to be quite a bit of fear and 00:03:08.415 --> 00:03:13.095 concern about kids these days not actually developing their conversation skills 00:03:13.155 --> 00:03:15.015 as, as much and as well as they could. 00:03:15.225 --> 00:03:17.265 Matt Abrahams: That was something that was surprising to me when my book came out, 00:03:17.265 --> 00:03:20.690 all the parents saying, hey, my kids need this, and there's work to be done there. 00:03:21.375 --> 00:03:24.855 What is the one big bit of advice you give on asking questions? 00:03:24.945 --> 00:03:26.204 Alison Wood Brooks: Oh, top line advice. 00:03:26.204 --> 00:03:26.774 So easy. 00:03:26.774 --> 00:03:29.024 Ask more questions, obviously. 00:03:29.475 --> 00:03:33.885 Much of the advice that you will read in this book or hear about on its surface 00:03:33.885 --> 00:03:39.345 seems so simple, but when you try and put it into practice, it's really hard. 00:03:39.345 --> 00:03:42.945 So the top line simplicity of this advice is really important. 00:03:42.945 --> 00:03:44.054 Just ask more. 00:03:44.144 --> 00:03:47.445 Go into every conversation with this mindset of, I can't 00:03:47.445 --> 00:03:50.024 leave this conversation not having asked any questions. 00:03:50.295 --> 00:03:53.954 I should be pushing myself to ask on the margin of a few more. 00:03:54.405 --> 00:03:58.605 Once you get past that top line advice of ask more, then you can get into the 00:03:58.605 --> 00:04:02.714 nitty gritty of what is a good question, in what circumstances, and what types 00:04:02.714 --> 00:04:04.394 of question asking should we avoid. 00:04:04.964 --> 00:04:10.485 Naomi Bagdonas: I wanna add one thing that I loved, that changed me and the 00:04:10.485 --> 00:04:15.135 way that I interact with people, is this idea that everything that someone 00:04:15.135 --> 00:04:21.404 gives you, they are giving you gold, and follow up questions are this magic 00:04:21.404 --> 00:04:24.735 way to uncover meaning and intention. 00:04:24.975 --> 00:04:28.125 Because we all attribute different meaning to what people are saying, 00:04:28.455 --> 00:04:33.045 and there's so much to be uncovered with really good follow-up questions. 00:04:33.135 --> 00:04:36.225 I'm curious, is there anything related to follow-up questions 00:04:36.585 --> 00:04:38.475 that you in particular love? 00:04:39.375 --> 00:04:41.955 Alison Wood Brooks: Something that I've realized, there's a lot of rhetoric you'll 00:04:41.955 --> 00:04:45.705 see on LinkedIn or among people that's like, well, don't ask this question. 00:04:45.705 --> 00:04:47.145 Ask this question. 00:04:47.725 --> 00:04:50.895 And to some extent, there is maybe a little bit of a difference between 00:04:50.895 --> 00:04:52.575 what makes a good question or not. 00:04:52.605 --> 00:04:56.745 But the better mindset to realize is no matter where you start on a 00:04:56.745 --> 00:05:01.545 topic, whatever that root question is, what actually matters more is 00:05:01.545 --> 00:05:03.315 that they're gonna give you an answer. 00:05:03.670 --> 00:05:07.330 You listen to their answer, and then what's the choice that comes next? 00:05:07.330 --> 00:05:11.800 Because even a boring sort of mundane question can become great 00:05:12.220 --> 00:05:13.930 by asking great follow-up questions. 00:05:13.930 --> 00:05:19.090 If you're constantly searching people's answers for treasure and then diving 00:05:19.090 --> 00:05:22.510 in towards that treasure, it's gonna take you to great places, even if the 00:05:22.510 --> 00:05:24.700 original question isn't anything special. 00:05:25.405 --> 00:05:27.915 Matt Abrahams: And not only do follow up questions signal that 00:05:27.915 --> 00:05:31.435 you're interested in listening, it also allows you to connect better. 00:05:32.035 --> 00:05:35.215 And it can set you up for a, a better relationship in the future. 00:05:36.485 --> 00:05:39.855 Naomi, you've been doing a lot of work in leadership and leadership 00:05:39.855 --> 00:05:43.215 coaching, and I'm curious, is there something new that you're looking to 00:05:43.215 --> 00:05:47.085 do, or are doing, that, that helps you help leaders be more effective? 00:05:47.490 --> 00:05:50.820 Naomi Bagdonas: I teach a class here at Stanford called A New Type of Leader with 00:05:50.820 --> 00:05:54.870 Jennifer Aaker, who's a dear friend of all of ours and an amazing collaborator. 00:05:55.170 --> 00:06:01.320 We now have all of our executives create guiding principles, and the idea is, 00:06:01.320 --> 00:06:05.670 what are the principles that when you are living in alignment with these 00:06:05.730 --> 00:06:10.950 principles, or in resonance with them, your life unfolds magically better. 00:06:11.325 --> 00:06:13.245 And they're different for everyone. 00:06:13.484 --> 00:06:19.245 So one of mine, I'm gonna be curious what yours are, one of mine is 00:06:19.304 --> 00:06:20.594 go where there's light and heat. 00:06:21.495 --> 00:06:26.325 And what that means for me is if I today set a goal for five years from 00:06:26.325 --> 00:06:32.685 now, it will not be anywhere near as good as if I navigate my life palms up. 00:06:33.075 --> 00:06:36.810 And I pay attention to where there is light and heat, and 00:06:36.810 --> 00:06:38.280 I follow those instincts. 00:06:38.520 --> 00:06:42.390 Now, that's not true for everyone, but for me, I have found that living in 00:06:42.390 --> 00:06:46.200 alignment with that principle is really important and makes my life better. 00:06:46.270 --> 00:06:49.770 So I'm curious, is there a principle that each of you have? 00:06:49.770 --> 00:06:53.310 Alison Wood Brooks: Doing that, palms up and chasing light and heat, means that you 00:06:53.310 --> 00:06:55.849 also need to leave space for serendipity. 00:06:56.489 --> 00:07:00.510 Even practically speaking in your schedule, in your calendar and 00:07:00.510 --> 00:07:03.900 psychologically in your mind, in order to sort of chase that energy 00:07:03.900 --> 00:07:05.520 when the opportunity arises. 00:07:05.609 --> 00:07:06.690 Do you do that very intentionally? 00:07:06.690 --> 00:07:09.359 Naomi Bagdonas: I do that extremely intentionally, so I have a portfolio 00:07:09.359 --> 00:07:12.539 career, which means that I have different percentages allocated 00:07:12.539 --> 00:07:14.219 to the different things I'm doing. 00:07:14.580 --> 00:07:17.040 I have a fifteen percent serendipity fund. 00:07:17.460 --> 00:07:22.020 What that means is that fifteen percent of my time and my budget is 00:07:22.020 --> 00:07:24.450 allocated to pursuing serendipity. 00:07:24.780 --> 00:07:28.590 If I am giving a talk somewhere and I have a conversation with an executive 00:07:28.590 --> 00:07:33.000 who's in the audience afterwards, and they say something about something that 00:07:33.060 --> 00:07:37.099 they're working on, or perhaps it's an event that they're leading, and they 00:07:37.099 --> 00:07:39.840 say there's no chance that you're gonna be in New York next week, are you? 00:07:39.990 --> 00:07:44.220 And in my mind, if there's real light and heat there, I go, okay. 00:07:44.220 --> 00:07:45.330 Serendipity fund. 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:49.530 Actually, yes, I am in New York next week, and it's part of the work that we do. 00:07:49.530 --> 00:07:53.250 Matt, to your point, not only what are these guiding principles, but how 00:07:53.250 --> 00:07:57.330 do you design structures in your life that allows you to live in alignment 00:07:57.330 --> 00:07:59.280 with them, which is super important. 00:07:59.609 --> 00:08:02.820 Matt Abrahams: I'd love for one of you just to define what is levity and 00:08:02.820 --> 00:08:05.700 perhaps the other can share why it's important, and I invite you to share 00:08:05.700 --> 00:08:09.299 with us what your students get when you guys have that discussion in your class. 00:08:09.299 --> 00:08:10.020 What is levity? 00:08:10.229 --> 00:08:13.919 Why is it important, and how do you help students understand that? 00:08:14.415 --> 00:08:16.695 Naomi Bagdonas: Levity is a mindset. 00:08:17.345 --> 00:08:20.685 Levity is navigating your life on the precipice of a smile. 00:08:21.435 --> 00:08:22.215 Matt Abrahams: I love that saying. 00:08:22.305 --> 00:08:25.155 Naomi Bagdonas: It is looking for reasons to be delighted rather than 00:08:25.155 --> 00:08:32.205 disappointed, and it is staying open to the possibility that joy and magic 00:08:32.205 --> 00:08:33.850 are everywhere if you just look for it. 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:38.100 Matt Abrahams: It seems to me that a key to that definition is being open to it. 00:08:38.219 --> 00:08:42.089 Many of us feel judged, evaluated, threatened in our 00:08:42.089 --> 00:08:43.469 work, in our conversations. 00:08:43.969 --> 00:08:47.100 How do you encourage your students, the people you coach, 00:08:47.100 --> 00:08:50.400 your friends, your family, to be open to those moments of levity? 00:08:50.459 --> 00:08:53.040 Because they, they're very rewarding intrinsically, but how do you 00:08:53.189 --> 00:08:54.300 encourage people to be open? 00:08:54.300 --> 00:08:57.510 Alison Wood Brooks: So the whole premise of Talk, the book, and Talk, the course, 00:08:57.540 --> 00:09:01.650 one of the really profound things that I, I hope people come away with is that 00:09:01.650 --> 00:09:03.630 every interaction is co-constructed. 00:09:04.215 --> 00:09:05.655 That includes levity. 00:09:05.655 --> 00:09:09.045 It's not just happening in your own mind, it's not just happening in their mind. 00:09:09.045 --> 00:09:11.475 It's something that you are co-constructing together. 00:09:11.985 --> 00:09:14.145 And so there's, it's a two-sided challenge. 00:09:14.145 --> 00:09:18.645 One is about creating moments of levity, and the other is about appreciating 00:09:18.645 --> 00:09:20.564 and receiving moments of levity. 00:09:20.955 --> 00:09:25.095 And I think to succeed in fulfilling this mission of the mindset and 00:09:25.095 --> 00:09:29.355 the universal goodness of levity, you need to really be open to both. 00:09:30.030 --> 00:09:33.090 When you see opportunities, do you seize them to create, 00:09:33.300 --> 00:09:34.949 uh, levity in conversation? 00:09:34.949 --> 00:09:40.140 And when someone else offers you this bid for humor or for warmth or 00:09:40.140 --> 00:09:43.410 connection or levity, do you accept it? 00:09:43.949 --> 00:09:47.939 Do you accept it with open arms or do you judge it and keep it over there 00:09:47.939 --> 00:09:50.550 in a box and feel threatened by it? 00:09:50.670 --> 00:09:54.090 That feeling of acceptance and openness is part of the levity 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:55.980 mindset, and it's not just openness. 00:09:55.980 --> 00:09:59.490 It's like a, almost a proactive appreciation for it. 00:09:59.730 --> 00:10:02.160 Matt Abrahams: It sounds like presence and being other focused 00:10:02.160 --> 00:10:05.670 are critical ingredients to being in that place where you can be open. 00:10:05.939 --> 00:10:09.540 Alison Wood Brooks: When we think of humor or levity, it's easy to think 00:10:09.540 --> 00:10:12.150 of it as this like extra bonus thing. 00:10:12.150 --> 00:10:15.270 Or like some people I know are funny, or like that meeting we had that 00:10:15.810 --> 00:10:18.900 funny moment of laughter and that was great, but it was ancillary, it 00:10:18.900 --> 00:10:21.110 was extra, was like this bonus thing. 00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:22.590 And then we got back to work. 00:10:22.979 --> 00:10:27.270 What we find as behavioral scientists is actually, it's not just this extra thing. 00:10:27.270 --> 00:10:31.370 It's incredibly core to how people are relating to each other. 00:10:31.410 --> 00:10:35.219 It is a core determinant of the status hierarchy in every group. 00:10:35.640 --> 00:10:40.680 It's just the correlation between levity and status, power, influence, 00:10:40.680 --> 00:10:44.125 persuasion, and all of the other goals we're trying to achieve is so intrinsic, 00:10:44.865 --> 00:10:48.465 that it's actually not to think of it as this extra thing, but more, this is 00:10:48.465 --> 00:10:54.285 a core goal that we need to engage with to sustain conversational engagement 00:10:54.285 --> 00:10:56.175 in a successful interpersonal exchange. 00:10:56.355 --> 00:10:59.745 Naomi Bagdonas: And the research around this is so robust that teams, 00:10:59.745 --> 00:11:02.895 when there's the presence of laughter in team meetings, those teams are 00:11:02.895 --> 00:11:04.425 more successful and more creative. 00:11:04.665 --> 00:11:08.245 Leaders with a sense of humor, not even a good sense of humor, just a sense of humor 00:11:08.564 --> 00:11:10.814 are seen as more motivating, more admired. 00:11:10.814 --> 00:11:13.064 Their teams report being more engaged. 00:11:13.500 --> 00:11:15.719 And so there are all of these benefits. 00:11:15.750 --> 00:11:20.339 Even when you ask couples to reminisce about shared moments of happiness 00:11:20.670 --> 00:11:25.380 versus shared moments of laughter, those couples that reminisce about the shared 00:11:25.380 --> 00:11:29.020 moments of laughter then afterwards report being twenty-three percent 00:11:29.040 --> 00:11:31.050 more satisfied in their relationships. 00:11:31.050 --> 00:11:35.520 And so even the act of recalling these moments, they're not just valuable in 00:11:35.520 --> 00:11:39.569 the moment for making us more creative, higher status, more successful, more 00:11:39.569 --> 00:11:45.390 bonded, but they also have incredible benefit down the line of maintaining 00:11:45.390 --> 00:11:47.310 that relationship satisfaction. 00:11:48.300 --> 00:11:52.380 Matt Abrahams: Many people listening might be afraid that I'm not funny and, 00:11:52.380 --> 00:11:57.810 and I wanna direct everybody to Naomi and Jennifer's book Humor, Seriously, which 00:11:58.439 --> 00:12:02.525 helps all of us become more comfortable with and understand how to use humor. 00:12:03.390 --> 00:12:08.339 When I reflect on what you both have studied and work on, it seems to me that 00:12:08.370 --> 00:12:12.540 there's a lot of nuance and fluidity that's involved in both conversation 00:12:12.540 --> 00:12:14.250 and, and in levity and humor. 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:19.119 And that can be something that's very hard for people to pay attention to the nuance. 00:12:19.310 --> 00:12:22.704 Or to allow themselves permission to adjust and adapt. 00:12:23.820 --> 00:12:29.100 Any suggestions or guidance on how to let go so you can do that? 00:12:29.280 --> 00:12:32.990 Um, a lot of people hold on tightly to what's comfortable and you're 00:12:32.990 --> 00:12:37.680 asking and saying there's benefit to pushing yourself to be uncomfortable. 00:12:38.490 --> 00:12:42.510 Alison Wood Brooks: So a lot of what makes people good conversationalists, not just 00:12:42.510 --> 00:12:47.310 levity, but including levity, but even asking questions or switching topics, it's 00:12:47.310 --> 00:12:51.660 these little fleeting moments that require risk taking and a little bit of courage. 00:12:52.050 --> 00:12:54.930 When things start to get boring, it means you need to muster yourself up 00:12:54.930 --> 00:12:57.660 for that moment and say, I'm gonna go take us in another direction. 00:12:58.050 --> 00:13:02.010 Or I'm gonna ask a question that maybe is a little risky and may, 00:13:02.040 --> 00:13:04.650 maybe they're not gonna wanna answer, but I trust that they're gonna 00:13:04.650 --> 00:13:08.970 tell me they're not comfortable answering it if it's too personal. 00:13:09.265 --> 00:13:13.314 So it's these little bids that require risk taking and a, and a bit of courage 00:13:13.314 --> 00:13:15.895 and levity for sure requires it. 00:13:15.895 --> 00:13:19.944 It's like these little fleeting opportunities arise, and are you gonna 00:13:19.944 --> 00:13:22.045 be courageous enough to take that risk? 00:13:23.190 --> 00:13:24.540 Matt Abrahams: I always ask people three questions. 00:13:24.540 --> 00:13:27.930 People can listen into your episodes, Alison, people can listen to episode 00:13:27.930 --> 00:13:30.030 73, 169 to hear your answers. 00:13:30.030 --> 00:13:33.660 Naomi, in episode 13, so I'm actually gonna turn the tables. 00:13:33.660 --> 00:13:34.920 I've never done this before. 00:13:35.040 --> 00:13:40.020 What question should I have asked, that I haven't asked, for us to discuss? 00:13:40.965 --> 00:13:43.785 Alison Wood Brooks: I would love to hear from both of you what you 00:13:43.785 --> 00:13:48.105 struggle with when you think about levity, particularly in conversation. 00:13:48.105 --> 00:13:50.655 Well, you've both spent a lot of time thinking about 00:13:50.655 --> 00:13:52.605 communication and about levity. 00:13:52.665 --> 00:13:57.945 In your experience as a human in the world, what sort of keeps you 00:13:57.945 --> 00:14:03.495 up at night about it, or stresses you out, or you find tricky still? 00:14:05.115 --> 00:14:09.075 Matt Abrahams: So when I attempt to be funny, or when I am funny if people laugh, 00:14:09.780 --> 00:14:14.160 sometimes it will happen so quickly that I'm not thinking about it and I worry 00:14:14.160 --> 00:14:17.760 about, I stay up at night thinking about, did something I say offend somebody? 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:21.510 Is there something that I said in some way, because it was in the 00:14:21.510 --> 00:14:23.520 moment and it just came to me. 00:14:24.060 --> 00:14:26.459 And did it potentially offend somebody? 00:14:26.459 --> 00:14:29.459 And so I worry about it and I replay it in my head over and over. 00:14:29.790 --> 00:14:33.630 Thankfully, my wife encourages me, one, to talk to the people I'm afraid 00:14:33.630 --> 00:14:36.209 I've offended rather than building it into something bigger in your head. 00:14:36.209 --> 00:14:39.360 But that's the thing around levity that really, I, I think it, the 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:42.030 beauty of it is it happens in the moment and when you have spontaneous 00:14:42.030 --> 00:14:44.130 levity, it's just amazing and fun. 00:14:44.370 --> 00:14:48.150 But in my case, sometimes I am afraid that it maybe, maybe I push somebody in 00:14:48.150 --> 00:14:49.500 the wrong way and, and that worries me. 00:14:49.590 --> 00:14:52.470 Alison Wood Brooks: It's an impossible problem to solve because even when 00:14:52.470 --> 00:14:56.130 people laugh and are having a great time, you really don't know you. 00:14:56.130 --> 00:14:57.750 You can't read someone else's mind. 00:14:57.755 --> 00:14:59.550 You don't know what sticks with people and what doesn't. 00:14:59.970 --> 00:15:03.540 There's a lot of nice evidence suggesting that we ruminate about the wrong moments. 00:15:03.630 --> 00:15:05.910 Maybe that joke was, that was totally great and they loved it, 00:15:05.910 --> 00:15:08.670 but there was something else you didn't even notice that actually 00:15:08.670 --> 00:15:10.230 they're continuing to ruminate about. 00:15:10.230 --> 00:15:13.710 We're very misaligned in what we ruminate about after conversation. 00:15:13.710 --> 00:15:16.650 There's great research by Gus Cooney, Adam Mastroianni, Dan 00:15:16.650 --> 00:15:18.210 Gilbert, about the liking gap. 00:15:18.210 --> 00:15:19.020 Do you know this work? 00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:22.980 People like you a lot more than you think on average after a conversation. 00:15:22.980 --> 00:15:26.910 We're all overly pessimistic about how we think things have gone 00:15:26.940 --> 00:15:28.560 compared to how they actually went. 00:15:29.215 --> 00:15:31.545 Matt Abrahams: Naomi, what's your answer to Alison's question? 00:15:31.814 --> 00:15:34.515 Naomi Bagdonas: I have a body of work, and I teach at Stanford about 00:15:34.515 --> 00:15:35.895 the power of humor in leadership. 00:15:36.375 --> 00:15:42.944 I worry that sometimes people can feel a bit nervous about bringing levity if 00:15:42.944 --> 00:15:45.645 that intention is already set, right? 00:15:45.645 --> 00:15:49.724 So if someone starts conversation with me and they're like, oh gosh, 00:15:49.755 --> 00:15:53.115 okay, this person is assessing me and my humor and my levity. 00:15:53.715 --> 00:15:59.295 And that pressure is the most surefire way to kill someone's joy and levity. 00:15:59.944 --> 00:16:04.545 And so I spend a lot of time thinking about, how do I create a really safe space 00:16:04.545 --> 00:16:06.944 where this person's goof can come out? 00:16:07.635 --> 00:16:09.225 It's not about me being funny. 00:16:09.225 --> 00:16:10.605 It's not about me bringing humor. 00:16:10.605 --> 00:16:15.615 It's about, am I creating the right space, the container for other people to fill it. 00:16:16.005 --> 00:16:19.605 Rather than people sitting on the wings and thinking, okay, that person 00:16:19.605 --> 00:16:23.595 is gonna fill the humor, which I think is a broader principle around 00:16:23.805 --> 00:16:26.776 for leaders, how do you create the space for other people to fill it? 00:16:27.285 --> 00:16:30.281 Rather than people sitting back and, and thinking what you're be like. 00:16:30.281 --> 00:16:32.475 Alison Wood Brooks: Are there specific things you do that you think help 00:16:32.535 --> 00:16:36.314 make people, relieve that pressure and make people feel safe to play? 00:16:36.675 --> 00:16:37.785 I think people feel the same way. 00:16:37.785 --> 00:16:39.314 They're like, I'm so nervous to talk to you. 00:16:39.314 --> 00:16:42.045 I feel like you're evaluating, and it's almost the opposite. 00:16:42.135 --> 00:16:44.865 It's like, I understand how complicated this thing is that 00:16:44.865 --> 00:16:48.465 we're doing, and I think I have more grace than forgiveness for flops. 00:16:49.485 --> 00:16:50.205 Naomi Bagdonas: It's related to this. 00:16:50.205 --> 00:16:54.615 It also relates to a broader principle, which is what are the cues, the visual and 00:16:54.615 --> 00:16:56.385 the physical cues that you're giving off? 00:16:56.475 --> 00:17:00.465 I was at a dinner party a couple weeks ago and everyone was sitting 00:17:00.465 --> 00:17:03.555 around, it wasn't actually at a table, it was sitting around couches. 00:17:04.035 --> 00:17:08.444 And it was a group of people who, we were all professional connections where 00:17:08.444 --> 00:17:12.435 we should really be getting along, but the conversation was a little dry 00:17:12.435 --> 00:17:16.185 and stilted, and we were also sitting really far away from each other. 00:17:16.185 --> 00:17:21.120 This room just was really big, and I just could feel like, gosh, how do we bring 00:17:21.120 --> 00:17:24.435 some, and so I, I just moved to the floor. 00:17:25.125 --> 00:17:27.944 I just sat on the floor because all the food was in the middle. 00:17:27.944 --> 00:17:29.294 I sat on the floor and I started eating. 00:17:29.655 --> 00:17:32.534 And one person laughed, and then one other woman went to the floor, 00:17:32.565 --> 00:17:35.625 and a guy kicked off his shoes and sat cross-legged on the couch. 00:17:35.970 --> 00:17:38.670 And you could feel the energy start to shift. 00:17:38.670 --> 00:17:42.230 And so it's, it's not just about levity, it's more about humanity. 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:45.390 Because when you give space for people to bring their humanity, 00:17:45.450 --> 00:17:46.920 their sense of humor will follow. 00:17:47.730 --> 00:17:50.900 Alison Wood Brooks: And breaking the formality, breaking the pace. 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:55.590 I often, like if there's a certain expectation or norm or whatever, if you 00:17:55.590 --> 00:17:58.710 can break that a little bit, it really grounds people and bring them together. 00:17:58.710 --> 00:17:59.400 Naomi Bagdonas: Yes, yes, totally. 00:17:59.490 --> 00:18:02.700 Matt Abrahams: I coached a very senior leader of a company we all know and 00:18:03.145 --> 00:18:04.705 he had some bad news to deliver. 00:18:04.705 --> 00:18:06.895 And he did something on his own, not through my coaching. 00:18:07.165 --> 00:18:11.035 He came off the stage in a room of about two thousand people, and just coming 00:18:11.035 --> 00:18:14.485 off the stage and having the tough conversation changed the whole dynamic. 00:18:14.665 --> 00:18:18.595 What's required though, to accomplish this, is this meta awareness of 00:18:18.595 --> 00:18:19.945 what's going on and what's needed. 00:18:20.545 --> 00:18:24.385 And it's holding that duality of, I'm in the moment, I'm present, but at the same 00:18:24.385 --> 00:18:27.715 time, I'm observing and feeling what's going on so I can make the difference. 00:18:27.715 --> 00:18:30.780 And that is a skill that, it's hard to develop, but courses, 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:33.750 like all of us teach, hopefully help our students do that. 00:18:34.890 --> 00:18:37.170 You both have helped us in so many ways. 00:18:37.290 --> 00:18:40.410 Not only did we talk about levity, but we had moments of 00:18:40.410 --> 00:18:41.700 levity, and thank you for that. 00:18:42.060 --> 00:18:45.300 And thank you for sharing your passions and your research 00:18:45.300 --> 00:18:46.560 to help all of us get better. 00:18:46.830 --> 00:18:48.900 It was a true pleasure to have you both here. 00:18:48.900 --> 00:18:49.410 Thank you. 00:18:49.410 --> 00:18:52.470 I know both of you traveled to be here with me today and 00:18:52.470 --> 00:18:53.580 I appreciate you doing that. 00:18:53.580 --> 00:18:53.850 Thank you. 00:18:54.360 --> 00:18:57.090 Naomi Bagdonas: You are such a beautiful and generous collaborator, 00:18:57.090 --> 00:18:59.790 and it's a gift to be here and the work that you're putting into 00:18:59.790 --> 00:19:01.110 the world is also such a gift. 00:19:01.159 --> 00:19:01.909 Matt Abrahams: Thank you. 00:19:02.139 --> 00:19:02.739 I'm blushing. 00:19:04.999 --> 00:19:07.290 Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think 00:19:07.290 --> 00:19:09.419 Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:19:09.750 --> 00:19:12.510 To learn more about humor and levity, please listen to episode 00:19:12.540 --> 00:19:14.789 13 with Naomi and Jennifer Aaker. 00:19:15.179 --> 00:19:21.270 And to learn more about Alison's work, please listen to episode 73, 89, and 169. 00:19:21.855 --> 00:19:25.935 This episode was produced by Ryan Campos and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:19:26.175 --> 00:19:27.915 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:19:27.975 --> 00:19:30.495 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:19:30.975 --> 00:19:34.425 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:19:34.695 --> 00:19:36.765 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:19:37.095 --> 00:19:42.195 Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram, and check out fastersmarter.io for 00:19:42.195 --> 00:19:46.365 deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. 00:19:46.725 --> 00:19:50.325 Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, 00:19:50.655 --> 00:19:56.355 Ask Matt Anythings, and much more at fastersmarter.io/premium.