Neil McPhedran: So it really set you both up for careers in podcasting.
It wasn't just sort of a academic.
Theoretical program, it was very practical.
Max'ed Aadan: Absolutely.
I think from the first day we started, we were immediately
kind of thrown in the deep end.
Like Chloe said, if you had no experience going into the course,
you could immediately get started with audio production, learning
how to edit, how to soundscape with the technical production side.
And if you did have that experience to begin with, there were other elements
you might not have been familiar with that you could explore straight away.
So I think it did prepare you quite well for whichever kind
of lane you wanted to go down.
Whether you wanted to be an independent producer yourself, whether you
wanted to behind the mic work in the marketing side of things, or
work in a big production company, or even the BBC those kind of avenues
were open to you from the beginning
Chloe Sackur: And I might just add that actually one of the appeals to me for the
course was the fact that they have this placement scheme for all of the students.
There was a variety of organizations who were open to having us come for
one day a week and work for them.
A few people have then gone on to work for those companies, myself included.
Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher
education podcasters who want to learn, connect, and get inspired.
I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of HigherEdPods.com
and Podium Podcast Company.
Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer Lee, founder of JPod Creations.
If you're podcasting in higher ed, you're not alone.
There is a fast growing community out there and we're
here to help you tap into it.
Neil McPhedran: Totally right Jen, and a great place to do that is Higher Ed Pods.
Make sure your podcast is listed in our library.
You know what, Jen?
I had a really awesome phone call last week with one of the directors
at the London Podcast Show, and it was just inspiring to hear she
found us through this podcast.
I just love that, people listen and they reach out.
But they're really trying to, the London Podcast show that is,
tap into more university, higher education podcasters and students.
We've got some news.
I'll be able to share more about that for our listening
audience in the coming weeks.
Jennifer-Lee: That's so awesome, because obviously we know this from a broadcast
background and after going to broadcasting school, there's different jobs you can
go on to get with podcasting, since it's still relatively new, it's neat
to see that we're seeing all these different job opportunities come out and
we, we haven't really talked about it.
We've talked about school education and the podcast
programming, in London with Brett.
If you haven't listened to the episode, take a look at it.
But we have two of his students on today to go deeper into that
program and talk about the jobs that they got out of graduation.
Neil McPhedran: Yeah, that's right.
So today, we are chatting with Max'ed AAdan and Chloe Sackur.
They are both recent grads of The City St. George, University of London Master's
program that they have in podcasting.
And it's really inspiring to hear how practical of a program they've
built at St. George University and to your point that the students
are coming outta there, into jobs.
So let's get into our conversation.
Jennifer-Lee: Sounds great.
, Neil McPhedran: Welcome it's great to have you here.
Chloe Sackur: Thanks for having us.
Max'ed Aadan: Yeah, it's great to speak with you both.
Thank you.
Neil McPhedran: So we had Brett Spencer on a previous episode and he gave us
a bit of a deeper dive into the MA in Podcasting program at the City of
St. George's University of London.
But maybe for those who might not have heard that episode.
Although I would recommend anyone to go back and listen to that episode,
just if you could give us a quick snapshot of, of that MA program.
Chloe Sackur: It's basically a primer for everything to do with
podcasting and radio as well.
We could join the course even if we didn't have any background
in broadcasting or anything.
I didn't have that.
You learn everything from those technical skills like editing audio
and making social video to things like audience strategy and marketing
and developing series ideas.
Uh, pitching.
There was also a journalistic element, we took classes and had to sit an
exam in media law and uh, do tests and ethics and things like that.
So it is quite a wide ranging course, but it's also very creative and
Max'ed and I made various podcasts together and with the rest of the
group, so it was really wonderfully.
Broad and wide ranging,
Jennifer-Lee: And you guys were both doing something too before this whole thing.
So Chloe, you were working in publishing?
Chloe Sackur: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer-Lee: And Max'ed you actually got a Spotify scholarship as well.
So can you tell us a little bit about that before you guys even entered the program?
Chloe Sackur: So, yeah, for a long time I was in publishing.
I was a children's book editor.
I still do a bit of that.
Yeah, for me, the attraction of the course was very much this challenge
of can I learn a whole new skillset.
I had been editing text and working on printed media, but I had never worked
on anything to do with audio or video.
So to do something like that was this real kind of interesting challenge, and
what appealed to me was the fact that that course has that kind of practical
thing that can then kind of throw you in at deep end and give you a mic.
Literally, in our first lunch hour, we were given mics and
told go out and interview people.
And so that kind of thing, the journalistic skills,
all of that was new to me.
Yet what was appealing to me was the fact that there was this openness
and that's something that I like about the podcasting industry.
I like that's quite open to the fact that people come from different backgrounds,
Neil McPhedran: Right
Chloe Sackur: So, yes, I'm not a journalist in the traditional sense,
but I have storytelling awareness and knowledge from my years working
on series fiction for children.
And I kind of understand things about voice and character and plot.
And so then it was for me to learn all the other bits and pieces
that kind of dovetail into that.
Neil McPhedran: What about you, Max'ed?
What was your background going into the program?
Max'ed Aadan: I originally studied filmmaking at university, and I
worked in the film and TV industry.
Made some short films, documentaries, worked in development.
Alongside that, I was working in the public health service since
I was 18 while I was studying.
And I was kind of having one of those days where I was listening
to a particular podcast.
I was quite distracted at work and I was like, I'm not really getting
the thing that I thought I would get out of this part of my adulthood.
So I was like, let me have a look and see what else is out there.
And lo and behold, podcasting MA comes up on the City University website.
And I had a look at the course and my instinct was, I don't wanna go
back to an education program if it is only gonna be as part of the academic
side, of learning the theory behind it, because there are merits to that,
but it was not what I was looking for.
Neil McPhedran: Yeah
Max'ed Aadan: I had a wonderful conversation with Sandy Warr, who
was part of the course team who also ran the course with Brett last year.
She explained to me exactly what the course format would be like, and the
fact that it is very practical, technical hands-on, and it's only 10 months.
I thought, I'm gonna give it a go, and I said to my wife at home, look,
I'm gonna apply for this course.
It's a bit of a wild card and I'm only gonna do it if I'm fortunate
enough to get the scholarship because it's a bit expensive for me.
I was fortunate to actually be awarded the Spotify scholarship, which was a
huge weight off my shoulders, which made the opportunity to study on the
course very easy for me to accept.
Neil McPhedran: That, that's great.
So there's actually an overarching scholar program that Spotify sponsors,
and you got accepted into that.
Max'ed Aadan: Yeah, that's correct.
So you had to apply for that, make the case for why that particular course, what
skills you have, what you can bring to it.
Essentially, it's a way of supporting students who may not have the means
to continue on education, but we need to demonstrate that you will be
a good ambassador, not only for the university, but for the brand of Spotify.
And as part of that scholarship, I was expected to participate on
the placement program with them.
And it was a huge learning experience for me, which I really enjoyed.
Jennifer-Lee: And what made you guys decide to get into podcasting?
Because like for me, when I went to school, because I'm much older than both
of you, I wanted to work for the BBC, CNN, all those traditional broadcasting spaces.
I did go on to work on some equivalents here in Canada, but it's still a
fairly new industry and you guys are maybe not wanting to work for the
BBC and other traditional outlets.
You're going into newer things.
Max'ed Aadan: I think for me, I've always loved podcasting.
I came across it back in 2006.
I had run out of football content to watch and listen to on iTunes, and I discovered
what an RSS feed was and unfortunately that that is where my unhealthy
podcasting habits first were born.
Since 2006, I've been listening to a wide array of podcasts.
What drew me to the course was an opportunity to explore something
that I really liked in my spare time.
Also, the fact that it was a professional development course, like Chloe said,
where you get to learn everything.
And essentially, yes, it's a master's course, it's an education program, the
entire cohort, it felt like you're part of a mini production company where you
would pitch to each other, pitch against each other, support each other, challenge
each other, and distribute your content.
And I think that's what drew me to the course.
That's what I loved about it.
Chloe Sackur: Yeah, you're definitely collaborating.
I think that's a really key aspect of it.
And you are operating quite independently, so, although of course we had assessments
to fulfill, there is this aspect of you can do what you like, you can
make a podcast about anything you like and put out that week, and then
you are doing an assessment around perhaps the social marketing strategy.
Neil McPhedran: So it really set you both up for careers in podcasting.
It wasn't just sort of a academic.
Theoretical program, it was very practical.
Set you off on the right foot to get careers in podcasting.
Max'ed Aadan: Absolutely.
I think from the first day we started, we were immediately
kind of thrown in the deep end.
Like Chloe said, if you had no experience going into the course,
you could immediately get started with audio production, learning
how to edit, how to soundscape with the technical production side.
And if you did have that experience to begin with, there were other elements
you might not have been familiar with that you could explore straight away.
So I think it did prepare you quite well for whichever kind
of lane you wanted to go down.
Whether you wanted to be an independent producer yourself, whether you wanted to
behind the mic, work in the marketing side of things, or work in a big production
company, or even the BBC, those kind of avenues were open to you from the
beginning depending on, like Chloe said, what you were interested in and what
you decided to put out and put in your portfolio by the time you finished.
Chloe Sackur: And I might just add that actually one of the appeals to me for the
course was the fact that they have this placement scheme for all of the students.
Brett opened up his little black book and reached out to various industry contacts.
There was a variety of organizations who were open to having us come for
one day a week and work for them.
A few people have then gone on to work for those companies, myself included.
So, I have been working as a freelancer for a production company called
Almost Tangible, and they're best known for their award-winning dramas.
Quite a few produced for the BBC.
So I have ended up working for the BBC in a very kind of roundabout way.
Um,
Neil McPhedran: Jen's very jealous.
Chloe Sackur: Yeah, so it's exciting to be working on these things.
My first weeks in interning for them, I was coming up with ideas,
developing ideas to pitch to the BBC, which was really exciting.
Neil McPhedran: that's amazing.
Chloe Sackur: yeah, first few weeks and coming up with ideas and testing 'em out.
Obviously not all of my ideas get through, get pitched, but it's a really good
testing ground because is this actually an idea or is it more of a starter thoughts?
And I think that's one of the things that comes up in our classes as well.
We did a module called Pitch the Product, which is taught by Brett.
And lots of industry people come in and they talk about how to develop
ideas that are actually going to get through to commissioners.
Jennifer-Lee: There's such an art to that.
You really wanna make sure that people are going to understand your
story and where you're going with it.
How important even just speaking and knowing when to stop and
how much information you put into it is such a crucial thing.
Max'ed Aadan: It goes back to what Chloe said at the beginning of the conversation,
that because the industry is so open that you can come from different backgrounds.
And from my understanding, Brett's worked in so many different aspects
of broadcasting, not just radio, that I think it bleeds into what
the industry is now because it's not just defined as audio only.
And I think we benefited from that experience because there were so many
opportunities for us to not just hear from industry professionals, but it
maybe go to some talks, even some of the placements, and I think that was
kind of a big draw for a lot of us.
Neil McPhedran: Excellent.
I think that's a really big benefit to the program, and I think any university
level program out there that's looking to do something like this or is doing
something like this to have that exposure.
While you're right in the program, but then that opportunity after to
help you, you know, get, get your feet out underneath of you and,
and to have those opportunities.
Max'ed, what are you doing now after coming out of the program?
You've had some interesting opportunities coming out of it as well too, haven't you?
Max'ed Aadan: I'm really blessed.
I'm currently working at Goalhanger.
I'm an assistant producer on their sports podcasts, The Rest
is Football and Daily Brightness, and the new Spanish football show.
And that opportunity actually came about because of the very module
that Chloe mentions Pitch to Product.
There was a particular day when we were doing our presentations where you're
pitching the idea of the podcast that you wanna make, but my idea, if my
memory serves me correct, it was about a comedy podcast and one of the judges
happened to be the head of development at Goalhanger, and we had a really
interesting conversation afterwards.
And she remembered me when later on they were looking for some freelancers
to do some work for them, and I threw my hat in the ring and that's kind
of how the opportunity came about.
So I did some work for them last summer while they were short staffed
in September, I applied for a full-time position there and I've
been working there since October.
Now.
Neil McPhedran: That's great.
I think a lot of our audience is Canadian and American.
So when you say football, you're talking about soccer?
Max'ed Aadan: Yes.
Yes.
Neil McPhedran: And for those people who don't know, Goalhanger
is a pretty big deal there.
That's a big more than podcasting.
Max'ed Aadan: Well, they do a lot of things now, live shows, festivals,
merchandising, memberships, loads of different things.
So I would, I would probably classify more closely to being a media
brand, media publisher, and they kind of redefined what is possible.
Because the industry in the uk, whilst there's a long historic track record of
making great radio and audio programs, they've kind of broken the mold.
And it feels more akin to what you happen to see over in North America, the kind
of global outlook that is quite fast.
Jennifer-Lee: You guys do some really cool stuff.
Can you tell us a little bit about another neat project that you guys got
to work on, which is the UN project?
So tell us a little bit about how that came about and what
you guys did on the project.
Chloe Sackur: Well, that's another thing that came about thanks to Brett.
He was in New York and he got talking to someone and they happened to be from the
UNFPA, the agency that's responsible for women's health and equality for the UN.
They had been thinking about doing a podcast series, and so
we were brought on to produce it.
The podcast that we produced is called Women's World Equity by
Design, and it's a six part series, which was released in the autumn.
We basically split into groups.
That's the way that we worked behind the scenes.
So there are about, so three or four students per group who developed an
episode each based around a particular theme that the UNFPA sourced guests for.
And they tended to be experts in a particular field.
And I believe Max'ed, you worked on the sports themed episode.
Max'ed Aadan: That's correct, yes.
Chloe Sackur: So perhaps you can tell us about that.
It's on brand for you.
Max'ed Aadan: Unfortunately, I'm being pigeonholed a little bit, but yes.
It was all about the inequities in the world, specifically
regarding women in various fields.
So not just sports, but in technology, in health finance.
And as Chloe said, we got to develop and work on an individual episode.
But what was quite nice was there was regular production and development
meetings with the UN talk about our progress and what we're thinking
and how we're gonna develop it, what the tone is gonna be, what
the voice of the show is gonna be.
And there was quite a lot of moving parts.
Obviously, as you can imagine, the UN is a global organization.
Neil McPhedran: Yeah.
Max'ed Aadan: And you have to liaise with different experts
in different parts of the world.
Sourcing the interviews themselves, figuring out how much of this do
we include, what is the perspective that we're trying to present here?
Speaking specifically from the sport element.
We thought it was quite interesting to talk, not just in the in inequities
that we've been experience in sport, but the foundational structures
that make it difficult for women to have an even playing field.
Things that you perhaps don't always even think about.
Things like having equal access to facilities, having the same kind of
consideration that goes into training and the health and science aspect of
sports, and it was fascinating for us to explore that in different areas.
Jennifer-Lee: I found that one episode really interesting where
they were talking about footwear.
One of the athletes had to wear men's shoes because women's
footwear for running is not at par.
And I was like, that is so crazy to me.
And the fact that she couldn't fit into it.
Max'ed Aadan: There was an amazing researcher we spoke with who speaks about
how the very foundation of the research that gets used in sports science in
particular, most of the data set, is the average male, the average male weights.
So all the data that's being collected and all this understanding that we have,
that then gets put into place by the kind of training people have to do, the
kind of regimes they have to be part of.
It's flawed from the very beginning because the data did not include women.
Jennifer-Lee: It's crazy.
And that's many industries.
Chloe Sackur: Absolutely.
And I think that the episode I worked on was about financing for solutions
for women, so generally healthcare, but also that we spoke to Mariam has created
an app based around women's safety.
They were talking about the fact that behind the scenes, when you're trying
to get financing for your idea, and it's something that is aimed at women, perhaps
it's to do with that app, or it's to do with research into endometriosis, which
affects millions of women worldwide.
Unfortunately, if you are a female founder, you are often in a room with
a bunch of men who do not understand.
They don't have the lived experience or they just.
Kind of don't care about these issues, and so they're not
gonna open up their checkbooks.
And so it's really, really tough, and so a tiny, tiny minority of those
startups get venture capital funding.
So it's all those sorts of things.
The hidden networks.
Neil McPhedran: Mm-hmm.
Chloe Sackur: Behind everything that the series was also looking at addressing.
So it gave a real kind of 360 view.
Neil McPhedran: What an amazing opportunity.
I think as we just discussed, the subject matter of that six part series
you created, what a way to learn about all the facets of producing a podcast
with a very real subject, a very real output, and that international exposure
too, that sounds great, the opposite of theory, super practical, but also very,
very real and quite a worthy topic.
Max'ed Aadan: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I think the biggest challenge for a lot of students, no matter what you're studying,
is by the time you finish, everybody expects you to have a certain level of
experience to enter the workforce, and we were very fortunate that as part of the
program, we are getting that experience that we need to enter the workforce.
Neil McPhedran: We're at an interesting crossroads in podcasting right now and
Max'ed, your example with Goalhanger where it's much more than just an audio podcast.
What do you feel about where podcasting is going, and do you feel like you've made
the right move to go through this program and you're out the other end and now you
both have careers focused on podcasting?
Max'ed Aadan: I'm 100% certain of that.
One of the things that we spoke about was how the industry in this country in the
UK is 20 years old, but it still feels new and young and it's still quite undefined.
And it feels like the industry is changing every single day because people's
habits are changing every single day.
We no longer have one TV in a home.
We have multiple screens.
We have more than five channels to watch.
So people's attentions are split and podcasting now, thanks to video, it
means that it's essentially a TV show that you have on your phone or on
your tv, and you can watch it anytime, anywhere around the world.And it
has kind of changed what's possible and how people interact with that.
I think that's probably why Chloe and I gravitate towards it, right?
Chloe Sackur: Yeah, I think it's an interesting one because for me
the appeal of podcast is freedom to explore a subject in depth.
You know, that was what was so fun because you can talk to
people who don't necessarily have a big platform or a big name,
Neil McPhedran: right.
Chloe Sackur: About a subject that isn't necessarily something that is going to
be prime time or you know, the BBC or the CBC, other networks are available.
And so it's the opportunity to go into something in great depth.
I probably have a bias towards audio because for me, I'm very
much a person that likes to do things whilst I'm listening and
that's how I take in information.
It's either by sitting and reading or by listening.
I'm less of a kind of sit and watch unless it's a film or something.
So for me.
I hope that those kind of in-depth investigative podcasts continue
in the same vein as they have.
But I certainly agree that it's in this kind of new stage where everything
is expanding into this visual world.
And we've had this big announcement from Apple last week saying that they're gonna
have this kind of seamless transition.
You can start listening on your commute or whatever, and then you get home
and you can pick up your phone and watch it from the point that you left
off or put it on your TV or whatever.
So that sort of suggests that they are really thinking
about that user experience.
And you know, Max'ed is right.
We are not static.
We are not doing the same thing every day.
We are changeable in our habits.
Unless you're me.
Jennifer-Lee: But think you bring, I,
Chloe Sackur: I just headphones all the time.
Jennifer-Lee: I think you bring up a great point Chloe.
As much as video is important, we're seeing all these platforms changing.
I also don't think every podcast needs to be videoed.
Yes.
We can't hide from it.
But I also don't think we should be pressured into.
If you wanna do an audio podcast and like some of them
lend themselves to just audio.
Like I can't imagine, like I'm sure there would be a great documentary
that it could do, but like The Kill List podcast, I loved it.
I binged it on a car ride, and it is such a masterpiece because
they have all these sound effects and everything, and it's so good.
Like I didn't need visual to listen to that one.
Chloe Sackur: I love that podcast too.
I was a bit of a bore about it.
Max'ed can probably attest to the fact I was like, everyone
listen to this podcast.
But I would suggest that maybe a lot of people might not have agreed to take
part in that 'cause it's very sensitive issues and hiding people's identity,
obviously you can do that in a TV format, but I wonder if people might have been
less open to appearing on that if it hadn't been in the podcast format.
For all I know, maybe they've got another series in the works and it's
gonna be fully visualized, so I'll have to eat my hat if that's the case.
Jennifer-Lee: I never thought of that though.
So for anyone that doesn't know what we're talking about, basically
there was this like list on the dark web of people around the world that
basically you could pay to get someone killed with Bitcoin if you wanted to.
And so this journalist in London went and basically warned everyone.
But you brought up a really good point because.
I don't think, yeah, because they were still trying to figure out some
people's mysteries too, and this was before the police caught some of the
people that were gonna kill them.
So I don't know if I really wanna watch just a whole bunch of like fuzzy faces
Chloe Sackur: there's other ways to make it dramatic.
Neil McPhedran: Chloe, what, what would be some advice that you would
give prospective students considering a specialized program like this versus
the more traditional theoretical?
Chloe Sackur: Be open to trying new stuff.
The best thing that I did was go, can I learn new skills at this point in my life?
Yes I can.
Giving it the old college try.
I entered it with that attitude of I'm gonna try and learn
everything, but no course can teach you how to do it all by yourself.
You have to go away and practice.
From week one, I sat down and I just practiced editing and I practiced
figuring out things I told myself.
Because I've never opened up Adobe before that summer.
I thought, I'm gonna practice so that I can build up the muscle memory.
Neil McPhedran: Mm.
Chloe Sackur: Because you need to.
You're gonna be really slow otherwise if you don't do that.
So that was one element.
The other thing is to just try out new stuff.
So.
I sat down and wrote a 10 minute script for an audio drama, and
then I roped in some people, including Max'ed to star in it.
I didn't really give you much of a choice.
I was just like, please just play the main male role in this.
It was kind of like a romantic drama.
I paired you with another student, but in a way your character was kind of playing
uh, not exactly a villainist role, but you understand a bit more about him.
By the end.
He breaks the main character's heart at the beginning.
And so, I thought I'm gonna do that just 'cause I wanna learn
how to soundscape an audio drama.
Neil McPhedran: Mm.
Chloe Sackur: And I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna try and record
as much of it as I can myself.
I possibly bit off a little more than I could chew, because I had a lot
on and I had to try and soundscape and edit and record and everything.
It's very hard to direct and record at the same time.
If I were to do that again, I would get someone to be a recordist.
But we live and we learn.
It's about trying stuff.
I may not know that I have.
All of the experience and all of the knowledge quite yet, but I'm not really
gonna get any further until I grab that mic and I just go out and do it.
Allowing yourself to not be perfect, that is really important and that's something
that I'm continuing to remind myself with.
A podcast that I make with a friend called Total Nineties Recall, twice
a month we record a podcast together.
We know that we're not gonna speak like BBC presenters, but we are
going to hopefully get some good material out there and edit it later.
I think it's about allowing yourself to experiment and improve over time.
Neil McPhedran: Max, any bits of advice for prospective students
considering a program like this?
Ways to judge various podcasting programs at the university level?
Max'ed Aadan: I think the first thing I would suggest is to speak to the
people that are running the course the other course leaders or module
leaders, don't be afraid to send them an email and say, I'm interested in
this course, even if it's months before the deadlines of applying for anything.
You're not gonna be held to your word.
So even if you're just exploring it, ask them all the questions that you have.
How does this work?
What's the program like?
What's the process for this?
Because a lot of the time, university perspectives online, they're very
flashy and they're enticing and it all looks great, but you might not know
exactly how it works in practical terms.
And once you understand that, then you'll know whether it's the right place for you.
Know why you're going to do it, because anytime you go into do higher education,
it's quite a lot of investment, not just financially, but your time.
You could be doing anything else.
One of the things I loved about my experience at City, was the
collaborative nature of everything.
Working on a module that then turns into a passion project and then continuing it
on even though we have deadlines 'cause we really enjoy the work that we're doing.
Also exploring what other people's interests are.
If you're working in a technical capacity, somebody else who has a totally different
interest to you might show you something that you weren't considering before.
And don't be afraid to change your mind.
I went into the course thinking one thing about myself and what I would like to do,
and by the time I finished it all changed and I was really grateful for that.
Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and I think being flexible, like you said, when I went
to school for radio, I would've never thought that I'd owned a podcast company
because I was very young when I was there.
And your course gives you a good base, but you really gotta be adaptable.
And being able to know what's coming up and the trends and being able to shift.
Max'ed Aadan: Say yes to as many things as your time allows you to.
The more you say yes to things, not just for the course, but a colleague will
mention, oh, I'm doing this project, would like, would you like to help me out?
Say yes.
Then look at the message boards.
See what people are looking for help with, try and do it all because whether
it's 10 months, couple of years, time will fly and by the time you finish,
you'll be out in the big world and you'll be busy working and you won't
have those opportunities again.
Chloe Sackur: Mm. I'd also just add that when it comes to electives, we
had to choose ours pretty early on.
I think before the course started even.
I took investigative and it was really scary.
I didn't know what I was doing.
For half a time I regretted it and I thought I should have done film and tv.
That's what I wanna do.
But once I started to get to grips with it, I produced something I was quite proud
of and I found out some interesting stuff.
So throwing yourself in the deep end is worth doing rather than staying
in the shallows where you're used to.
I had to publish things on TikTok.
I was terrified.
Haven't done it since, but I really had to dig deep and engage with social
media platforms I was not used to.
Jennifer-Lee: What advice would you give to people coming out
as students and wanting to work?
Chloe Sackur: Well, that's quite a tricky one because it is a tough time.
I suppose, and it's advice that I need to keep in mind as well, is I
think it's about trying to really meet as many people as possible in the
industry and have conversations with people where you approach it as asking
for advice or finding out about that person rather than asking for a job.
And I think, my first summer after finishing the course, I've sent off
lots of emails to various companies being like, I really love what you
do, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Do you have any work?
And it just wasn't going anywhere.
And so probably the best thing for me was just reaching out to
people through LinkedIn or we have a network and just sort of talking
to people and asking them about themselves and what advice they have.
And you never know how these things will kind of all link up.
I'd say.
It's very much a contact based industry.
Max'ed Aadan: I think that's very astute advice from Chloe.
The other thing I'd mention is if the field you're trying to go
into, it's a technical field where you have to prove your skill.
There's no harm in proving your skill by building a
portfolio with passion projects.
Your friend wants to start a podcast.
Great.
Do the technical side for them, record it additive, help produce
it, build a portfolio of work so that when the opportunity does
arise and somebody says, I do have an opportunity, what have you done?
You can say, these are the skills I have and this is how
I can demonstrate it to you.
And most of the time people know that as long as you can do this skill,
people will take a chance on you.
You just have to try and get that as much as possible.
Jennifer-Lee: Mm-hmm.
That's great advice.
Neil McPhedran: That was great.
Thank you both so much for joining us and for sharing your experience.. This
was a great conversation there's a lot of takeaways for the audience here today.
Thank you so much.
Chloe Sackur: Thanks for having us.
Max'ed Aadan: Thank you for having us.
Yeah.
Jennifer-Lee: Neil, I know you and I have been in podcasting for a bit, but I
really think we should take that course.
I'm really inspired after talking to Chloe and Max'ed.
Neil McPhedran: Yeah, what a great program.
It's really interesting to dig into.
The teaching of podcasting.
So often we're talking about podcasting being used for alumni or
for recruitment, or for a professor or for educational purposes.
So this was a great episode where we kind of flipped it a bit and focused on the
teaching of podcasting in a university.
Jennifer-Lee: Love it.
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