1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,389 Neil McPhedran: So it really set you both up for careers in podcasting. 2 00:00:03,389 --> 00:00:05,610 It wasn't just sort of a academic. 3 00:00:06,204 --> 00:00:10,014 Theoretical program, it was very practical. 4 00:00:10,114 --> 00:00:10,804 Max'ed Aadan: Absolutely. 5 00:00:10,804 --> 00:00:13,234 I think from the first day we started, we were immediately 6 00:00:13,234 --> 00:00:14,254 kind of thrown in the deep end. 7 00:00:14,254 --> 00:00:17,194 Like Chloe said, if you had no experience going into the course, 8 00:00:17,644 --> 00:00:19,924 you could immediately get started with audio production, learning 9 00:00:19,924 --> 00:00:23,554 how to edit, how to soundscape with the technical production side. 10 00:00:23,624 --> 00:00:26,504 And if you did have that experience to begin with, there were other elements 11 00:00:26,504 --> 00:00:28,844 you might not have been familiar with that you could explore straight away. 12 00:00:28,844 --> 00:00:31,964 So I think it did prepare you quite well for whichever kind 13 00:00:31,964 --> 00:00:33,314 of lane you wanted to go down. 14 00:00:33,494 --> 00:00:35,864 Whether you wanted to be an independent producer yourself, whether you 15 00:00:35,864 --> 00:00:39,164 wanted to behind the mic work in the marketing side of things, or 16 00:00:39,164 --> 00:00:43,004 work in a big production company, or even the BBC those kind of avenues 17 00:00:43,004 --> 00:00:44,264 were open to you from the beginning 18 00:00:44,264 --> 00:00:47,599 Chloe Sackur: And I might just add that actually one of the appeals to me for the 19 00:00:47,599 --> 00:00:52,486 course was the fact that they have this placement scheme for all of the students. 20 00:00:52,736 --> 00:00:59,126 There was a variety of organizations who were open to having us come for 21 00:00:59,156 --> 00:01:01,429 one day a week and work for them. 22 00:01:01,479 --> 00:01:05,559 A few people have then gone on to work for those companies, myself included. 23 00:01:09,669 --> 00:01:12,249 Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher 24 00:01:12,249 --> 00:01:16,299 education podcasters who want to learn, connect, and get inspired. 25 00:01:16,509 --> 00:01:18,169 I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of HigherEdPods.com 26 00:01:20,259 --> 00:01:21,789 and Podium Podcast Company. 27 00:01:22,509 --> 00:01:25,044 Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer Lee, founder of JPod Creations. 28 00:01:25,044 --> 00:01:27,339 If you're podcasting in higher ed, you're not alone. 29 00:01:27,824 --> 00:01:30,614 There is a fast growing community out there and we're 30 00:01:30,614 --> 00:01:32,024 here to help you tap into it. 31 00:01:32,774 --> 00:01:36,584 Neil McPhedran: Totally right Jen, and a great place to do that is Higher Ed Pods. 32 00:01:36,644 --> 00:01:41,144 Make sure your podcast is listed in our library. 33 00:01:41,684 --> 00:01:42,314 You know what, Jen? 34 00:01:42,794 --> 00:01:47,709 I had a really awesome phone call last week with one of the directors 35 00:01:47,709 --> 00:01:53,709 at the London Podcast Show, and it was just inspiring to hear she 36 00:01:53,709 --> 00:01:55,876 found us through this podcast. 37 00:01:55,936 --> 00:01:58,516 I just love that, people listen and they reach out. 38 00:01:59,306 --> 00:02:02,396 But they're really trying to, the London Podcast show that is, 39 00:02:02,396 --> 00:02:08,739 tap into more university, higher education podcasters and students. 40 00:02:08,739 --> 00:02:09,609 We've got some news. 41 00:02:09,609 --> 00:02:12,876 I'll be able to share more about that for our listening 42 00:02:12,906 --> 00:02:14,352 audience in the coming weeks. 43 00:02:14,864 --> 00:02:18,617 Jennifer-Lee: That's so awesome, because obviously we know this from a broadcast 44 00:02:18,617 --> 00:02:22,501 background and after going to broadcasting school, there's different jobs you can 45 00:02:22,501 --> 00:02:27,064 go on to get with podcasting, since it's still relatively new, it's neat 46 00:02:27,064 --> 00:02:31,029 to see that we're seeing all these different job opportunities come out and 47 00:02:31,029 --> 00:02:32,589 we, we haven't really talked about it. 48 00:02:32,589 --> 00:02:35,492 We've talked about school education and the podcast 49 00:02:35,492 --> 00:02:37,844 programming, in London with Brett. 50 00:02:37,844 --> 00:02:40,124 If you haven't listened to the episode, take a look at it. 51 00:02:40,124 --> 00:02:44,174 But we have two of his students on today to go deeper into that 52 00:02:44,174 --> 00:02:47,609 program and talk about the jobs that they got out of graduation. 53 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:48,520 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, that's right. 54 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:54,250 So today, we are chatting with Max'ed AAdan and Chloe Sackur. 55 00:02:55,380 --> 00:03:01,600 They are both recent grads of The City St. George, University of London Master's 56 00:03:01,620 --> 00:03:04,290 program that they have in podcasting. 57 00:03:04,314 --> 00:03:10,904 And it's really inspiring to hear how practical of a program they've 58 00:03:10,904 --> 00:03:14,759 built at St. George University and to your point that the students 59 00:03:14,759 --> 00:03:17,069 are coming outta there, into jobs. 60 00:03:17,379 --> 00:03:18,979 So let's get into our conversation. 61 00:03:19,529 --> 00:03:20,279 Jennifer-Lee: Sounds great. 62 00:03:21,369 --> 00:03:23,390 , Neil McPhedran: Welcome it's great to have you here. 63 00:03:23,420 --> 00:03:24,530 Chloe Sackur: Thanks for having us. 64 00:03:24,677 --> 00:03:26,117 Max'ed Aadan: Yeah, it's great to speak with you both. 65 00:03:26,117 --> 00:03:26,537 Thank you. 66 00:03:26,627 --> 00:03:31,757 Neil McPhedran: So we had Brett Spencer on a previous episode and he gave us 67 00:03:31,757 --> 00:03:37,457 a bit of a deeper dive into the MA in Podcasting program at the City of 68 00:03:37,457 --> 00:03:39,482 St. George's University of London. 69 00:03:40,022 --> 00:03:43,277 But maybe for those who might not have heard that episode. 70 00:03:43,797 --> 00:03:46,617 Although I would recommend anyone to go back and listen to that episode, 71 00:03:46,857 --> 00:03:50,127 just if you could give us a quick snapshot of, of that MA program. 72 00:03:50,187 --> 00:03:54,341 Chloe Sackur: It's basically a primer for everything to do with 73 00:03:54,341 --> 00:03:57,161 podcasting and radio as well. 74 00:03:57,281 --> 00:04:01,391 We could join the course even if we didn't have any background 75 00:04:01,421 --> 00:04:02,861 in broadcasting or anything. 76 00:04:02,891 --> 00:04:03,881 I didn't have that. 77 00:04:04,241 --> 00:04:07,871 You learn everything from those technical skills like editing audio 78 00:04:07,931 --> 00:04:14,171 and making social video to things like audience strategy and marketing 79 00:04:14,531 --> 00:04:17,531 and developing series ideas. 80 00:04:17,951 --> 00:04:18,941 Uh, pitching. 81 00:04:19,511 --> 00:04:23,801 There was also a journalistic element, we took classes and had to sit an 82 00:04:23,801 --> 00:04:28,691 exam in media law and uh, do tests and ethics and things like that. 83 00:04:29,021 --> 00:04:34,361 So it is quite a wide ranging course, but it's also very creative and 84 00:04:34,471 --> 00:04:39,011 Max'ed and I made various podcasts together and with the rest of the 85 00:04:39,011 --> 00:04:42,371 group, so it was really wonderfully. 86 00:04:42,641 --> 00:04:44,021 Broad and wide ranging, 87 00:04:44,111 --> 00:04:47,891 Jennifer-Lee: And you guys were both doing something too before this whole thing. 88 00:04:47,891 --> 00:04:49,811 So Chloe, you were working in publishing? 89 00:04:50,051 --> 00:04:50,141 Chloe Sackur: Mm-hmm. 90 00:04:50,381 --> 00:04:54,101 Jennifer-Lee: And Max'ed you actually got a Spotify scholarship as well. 91 00:04:54,101 --> 00:04:58,871 So can you tell us a little bit about that before you guys even entered the program? 92 00:04:58,871 --> 00:05:01,871 Chloe Sackur: So, yeah, for a long time I was in publishing. 93 00:05:01,871 --> 00:05:03,341 I was a children's book editor. 94 00:05:03,641 --> 00:05:05,081 I still do a bit of that. 95 00:05:05,516 --> 00:05:09,236 Yeah, for me, the attraction of the course was very much this challenge 96 00:05:09,236 --> 00:05:12,326 of can I learn a whole new skillset. 97 00:05:12,386 --> 00:05:18,056 I had been editing text and working on printed media, but I had never worked 98 00:05:18,116 --> 00:05:20,996 on anything to do with audio or video. 99 00:05:21,446 --> 00:05:26,246 So to do something like that was this real kind of interesting challenge, and 100 00:05:26,246 --> 00:05:29,156 what appealed to me was the fact that that course has that kind of practical 101 00:05:29,156 --> 00:05:33,596 thing that can then kind of throw you in at deep end and give you a mic. 102 00:05:33,596 --> 00:05:36,836 Literally, in our first lunch hour, we were given mics and 103 00:05:36,836 --> 00:05:38,576 told go out and interview people. 104 00:05:39,176 --> 00:05:42,326 And so that kind of thing, the journalistic skills, 105 00:05:42,386 --> 00:05:44,606 all of that was new to me. 106 00:05:44,656 --> 00:05:49,276 Yet what was appealing to me was the fact that there was this openness 107 00:05:49,276 --> 00:05:52,366 and that's something that I like about the podcasting industry. 108 00:05:52,426 --> 00:05:55,816 I like that's quite open to the fact that people come from different backgrounds, 109 00:05:55,816 --> 00:05:55,906 Neil McPhedran: Right 110 00:05:56,146 --> 00:06:00,696 Chloe Sackur: So, yes, I'm not a journalist in the traditional sense, 111 00:06:00,696 --> 00:06:04,926 but I have storytelling awareness and knowledge from my years working 112 00:06:04,926 --> 00:06:07,086 on series fiction for children. 113 00:06:07,506 --> 00:06:11,946 And I kind of understand things about voice and character and plot. 114 00:06:12,126 --> 00:06:15,386 And so then it was for me to learn all the other bits and pieces 115 00:06:15,386 --> 00:06:16,976 that kind of dovetail into that. 116 00:06:17,036 --> 00:06:17,566 Neil McPhedran: What about you, Max'ed? 117 00:06:18,056 --> 00:06:20,606 What was your background going into the program? 118 00:06:20,696 --> 00:06:23,516 Max'ed Aadan: I originally studied filmmaking at university, and I 119 00:06:23,516 --> 00:06:24,986 worked in the film and TV industry. 120 00:06:24,986 --> 00:06:27,836 Made some short films, documentaries, worked in development. 121 00:06:28,286 --> 00:06:30,746 Alongside that, I was working in the public health service since 122 00:06:30,746 --> 00:06:32,546 I was 18 while I was studying. 123 00:06:32,606 --> 00:06:35,126 And I was kind of having one of those days where I was listening 124 00:06:35,126 --> 00:06:36,416 to a particular podcast. 125 00:06:36,596 --> 00:06:40,286 I was quite distracted at work and I was like, I'm not really getting 126 00:06:40,286 --> 00:06:43,376 the thing that I thought I would get out of this part of my adulthood. 127 00:06:43,436 --> 00:06:45,776 So I was like, let me have a look and see what else is out there. 128 00:06:45,866 --> 00:06:49,616 And lo and behold, podcasting MA comes up on the City University website. 129 00:06:49,976 --> 00:06:53,636 And I had a look at the course and my instinct was, I don't wanna go 130 00:06:53,636 --> 00:06:57,806 back to an education program if it is only gonna be as part of the academic 131 00:06:57,806 --> 00:07:00,506 side, of learning the theory behind it, because there are merits to that, 132 00:07:01,016 --> 00:07:02,396 but it was not what I was looking for. 133 00:07:02,936 --> 00:07:03,056 Neil McPhedran: Yeah 134 00:07:03,086 --> 00:07:05,336 Max'ed Aadan: I had a wonderful conversation with Sandy Warr, who 135 00:07:05,336 --> 00:07:09,416 was part of the course team who also ran the course with Brett last year. 136 00:07:09,866 --> 00:07:12,566 She explained to me exactly what the course format would be like, and the 137 00:07:12,566 --> 00:07:17,336 fact that it is very practical, technical hands-on, and it's only 10 months. 138 00:07:17,336 --> 00:07:20,441 I thought, I'm gonna give it a go, and I said to my wife at home, look, 139 00:07:20,471 --> 00:07:21,641 I'm gonna apply for this course. 140 00:07:21,701 --> 00:07:25,181 It's a bit of a wild card and I'm only gonna do it if I'm fortunate 141 00:07:25,181 --> 00:07:28,181 enough to get the scholarship because it's a bit expensive for me. 142 00:07:28,211 --> 00:07:31,571 I was fortunate to actually be awarded the Spotify scholarship, which was a 143 00:07:31,571 --> 00:07:34,451 huge weight off my shoulders, which made the opportunity to study on the 144 00:07:34,451 --> 00:07:35,866 course very easy for me to accept. 145 00:07:36,506 --> 00:07:37,526 Neil McPhedran: That, that's great. 146 00:07:37,526 --> 00:07:42,746 So there's actually an overarching scholar program that Spotify sponsors, 147 00:07:42,746 --> 00:07:43,886 and you got accepted into that. 148 00:07:43,946 --> 00:07:44,696 Max'ed Aadan: Yeah, that's correct. 149 00:07:44,696 --> 00:07:48,926 So you had to apply for that, make the case for why that particular course, what 150 00:07:48,926 --> 00:07:50,576 skills you have, what you can bring to it. 151 00:07:50,876 --> 00:07:54,466 Essentially, it's a way of supporting students who may not have the means 152 00:07:54,466 --> 00:07:57,646 to continue on education, but we need to demonstrate that you will be 153 00:07:57,646 --> 00:08:00,886 a good ambassador, not only for the university, but for the brand of Spotify. 154 00:08:01,186 --> 00:08:04,186 And as part of that scholarship, I was expected to participate on 155 00:08:04,186 --> 00:08:05,626 the placement program with them. 156 00:08:05,686 --> 00:08:08,596 And it was a huge learning experience for me, which I really enjoyed. 157 00:08:08,686 --> 00:08:11,686 Jennifer-Lee: And what made you guys decide to get into podcasting? 158 00:08:11,686 --> 00:08:15,886 Because like for me, when I went to school, because I'm much older than both 159 00:08:15,886 --> 00:08:21,506 of you, I wanted to work for the BBC, CNN, all those traditional broadcasting spaces. 160 00:08:21,506 --> 00:08:25,196 I did go on to work on some equivalents here in Canada, but it's still a 161 00:08:25,196 --> 00:08:28,826 fairly new industry and you guys are maybe not wanting to work for the 162 00:08:28,826 --> 00:08:30,896 BBC and other traditional outlets. 163 00:08:30,896 --> 00:08:32,906 You're going into newer things. 164 00:08:32,946 --> 00:08:35,406 Max'ed Aadan: I think for me, I've always loved podcasting. 165 00:08:35,436 --> 00:08:37,926 I came across it back in 2006. 166 00:08:37,986 --> 00:08:42,511 I had run out of football content to watch and listen to on iTunes, and I discovered 167 00:08:42,511 --> 00:08:47,041 what an RSS feed was and unfortunately that that is where my unhealthy 168 00:08:47,051 --> 00:08:49,201 podcasting habits first were born. 169 00:08:49,861 --> 00:08:53,071 Since 2006, I've been listening to a wide array of podcasts. 170 00:08:53,101 --> 00:08:56,251 What drew me to the course was an opportunity to explore something 171 00:08:56,251 --> 00:08:57,781 that I really liked in my spare time. 172 00:08:57,781 --> 00:09:01,121 Also, the fact that it was a professional development course, like Chloe said, 173 00:09:01,121 --> 00:09:02,441 where you get to learn everything. 174 00:09:02,831 --> 00:09:06,161 And essentially, yes, it's a master's course, it's an education program, the 175 00:09:06,161 --> 00:09:10,241 entire cohort, it felt like you're part of a mini production company where you 176 00:09:10,241 --> 00:09:14,591 would pitch to each other, pitch against each other, support each other, challenge 177 00:09:14,591 --> 00:09:16,451 each other, and distribute your content. 178 00:09:16,991 --> 00:09:19,031 And I think that's what drew me to the course. 179 00:09:19,031 --> 00:09:19,901 That's what I loved about it. 180 00:09:20,151 --> 00:09:22,091 Chloe Sackur: Yeah, you're definitely collaborating. 181 00:09:22,091 --> 00:09:24,311 I think that's a really key aspect of it. 182 00:09:24,371 --> 00:09:29,201 And you are operating quite independently, so, although of course we had assessments 183 00:09:29,201 --> 00:09:33,521 to fulfill, there is this aspect of you can do what you like, you can 184 00:09:33,521 --> 00:09:37,241 make a podcast about anything you like and put out that week, and then 185 00:09:37,541 --> 00:09:41,351 you are doing an assessment around perhaps the social marketing strategy. 186 00:09:41,591 --> 00:09:44,981 Neil McPhedran: So it really set you both up for careers in podcasting. 187 00:09:44,981 --> 00:09:47,201 It wasn't just sort of a academic. 188 00:09:47,796 --> 00:09:51,606 Theoretical program, it was very practical. 189 00:09:51,666 --> 00:09:55,188 Set you off on the right foot to get careers in podcasting. 190 00:09:55,338 --> 00:09:56,028 Max'ed Aadan: Absolutely. 191 00:09:56,028 --> 00:09:58,458 I think from the first day we started, we were immediately 192 00:09:58,458 --> 00:09:59,478 kind of thrown in the deep end. 193 00:09:59,478 --> 00:10:02,418 Like Chloe said, if you had no experience going into the course, 194 00:10:02,868 --> 00:10:05,148 you could immediately get started with audio production, learning 195 00:10:05,148 --> 00:10:08,778 how to edit, how to soundscape with the technical production side. 196 00:10:08,848 --> 00:10:11,728 And if you did have that experience to begin with, there were other elements 197 00:10:11,728 --> 00:10:14,068 you might not have been familiar with that you could explore straight away. 198 00:10:14,068 --> 00:10:17,188 So I think it did prepare you quite well for whichever kind 199 00:10:17,188 --> 00:10:18,538 of lane you wanted to go down. 200 00:10:18,718 --> 00:10:21,388 Whether you wanted to be an independent producer yourself, whether you wanted to 201 00:10:21,388 --> 00:10:25,288 behind the mic, work in the marketing side of things, or work in a big production 202 00:10:25,288 --> 00:10:29,068 company, or even the BBC, those kind of avenues were open to you from the 203 00:10:29,068 --> 00:10:32,008 beginning depending on, like Chloe said, what you were interested in and what 204 00:10:32,008 --> 00:10:35,338 you decided to put out and put in your portfolio by the time you finished. 205 00:10:35,488 --> 00:10:38,823 Chloe Sackur: And I might just add that actually one of the appeals to me for the 206 00:10:38,823 --> 00:10:43,710 course was the fact that they have this placement scheme for all of the students. 207 00:10:44,010 --> 00:10:49,380 Brett opened up his little black book and reached out to various industry contacts. 208 00:10:49,410 --> 00:10:55,800 There was a variety of organizations who were open to having us come for 209 00:10:55,830 --> 00:10:58,103 one day a week and work for them. 210 00:10:58,153 --> 00:11:02,233 A few people have then gone on to work for those companies, myself included. 211 00:11:02,233 --> 00:11:08,353 So, I have been working as a freelancer for a production company called 212 00:11:08,353 --> 00:11:13,213 Almost Tangible, and they're best known for their award-winning dramas. 213 00:11:13,633 --> 00:11:15,733 Quite a few produced for the BBC. 214 00:11:15,793 --> 00:11:20,053 So I have ended up working for the BBC in a very kind of roundabout way. 215 00:11:20,683 --> 00:11:21,343 Um, 216 00:11:21,343 --> 00:11:22,783 Neil McPhedran: Jen's very jealous. 217 00:11:22,993 --> 00:11:26,908 Chloe Sackur: Yeah, so it's exciting to be working on these things. 218 00:11:26,998 --> 00:11:30,418 My first weeks in interning for them, I was coming up with ideas, 219 00:11:30,418 --> 00:11:33,898 developing ideas to pitch to the BBC, which was really exciting. 220 00:11:34,028 --> 00:11:34,778 Neil McPhedran: that's amazing. 221 00:11:34,808 --> 00:11:38,378 Chloe Sackur: yeah, first few weeks and coming up with ideas and testing 'em out. 222 00:11:38,408 --> 00:11:43,548 Obviously not all of my ideas get through, get pitched, but it's a really good 223 00:11:43,548 --> 00:11:48,168 testing ground because is this actually an idea or is it more of a starter thoughts? 224 00:11:48,168 --> 00:11:51,648 And I think that's one of the things that comes up in our classes as well. 225 00:11:51,708 --> 00:11:55,008 We did a module called Pitch the Product, which is taught by Brett. 226 00:11:55,488 --> 00:11:59,778 And lots of industry people come in and they talk about how to develop 227 00:11:59,778 --> 00:12:02,833 ideas that are actually going to get through to commissioners. 228 00:12:02,893 --> 00:12:03,936 Jennifer-Lee: There's such an art to that. 229 00:12:03,936 --> 00:12:07,146 You really wanna make sure that people are going to understand your 230 00:12:07,146 --> 00:12:08,826 story and where you're going with it. 231 00:12:08,886 --> 00:12:13,116 How important even just speaking and knowing when to stop and 232 00:12:13,116 --> 00:12:16,626 how much information you put into it is such a crucial thing. 233 00:12:16,676 --> 00:12:19,196 Max'ed Aadan: It goes back to what Chloe said at the beginning of the conversation, 234 00:12:19,196 --> 00:12:22,376 that because the industry is so open that you can come from different backgrounds. 235 00:12:22,901 --> 00:12:25,781 And from my understanding, Brett's worked in so many different aspects 236 00:12:25,781 --> 00:12:30,041 of broadcasting, not just radio, that I think it bleeds into what 237 00:12:30,041 --> 00:12:33,851 the industry is now because it's not just defined as audio only. 238 00:12:34,301 --> 00:12:37,841 And I think we benefited from that experience because there were so many 239 00:12:37,841 --> 00:12:41,171 opportunities for us to not just hear from industry professionals, but it 240 00:12:41,171 --> 00:12:44,636 maybe go to some talks, even some of the placements, and I think that was 241 00:12:44,636 --> 00:12:46,076 kind of a big draw for a lot of us. 242 00:12:46,196 --> 00:12:46,706 Neil McPhedran: Excellent. 243 00:12:46,916 --> 00:12:51,956 I think that's a really big benefit to the program, and I think any university 244 00:12:51,956 --> 00:12:55,316 level program out there that's looking to do something like this or is doing 245 00:12:55,316 --> 00:12:58,976 something like this to have that exposure. 246 00:12:59,411 --> 00:13:03,671 While you're right in the program, but then that opportunity after to 247 00:13:03,671 --> 00:13:07,451 help you, you know, get, get your feet out underneath of you and, 248 00:13:07,451 --> 00:13:08,861 and to have those opportunities. 249 00:13:09,231 --> 00:13:12,281 Max'ed, what are you doing now after coming out of the program? 250 00:13:12,461 --> 00:13:15,461 You've had some interesting opportunities coming out of it as well too, haven't you? 251 00:13:15,791 --> 00:13:16,481 Max'ed Aadan: I'm really blessed. 252 00:13:16,481 --> 00:13:17,311 I'm currently working at Goalhanger. 253 00:13:17,921 --> 00:13:20,891 I'm an assistant producer on their sports podcasts, The Rest 254 00:13:20,891 --> 00:13:23,681 is Football and Daily Brightness, and the new Spanish football show. 255 00:13:24,101 --> 00:13:27,076 And that opportunity actually came about because of the very module 256 00:13:27,076 --> 00:13:28,696 that Chloe mentions Pitch to Product. 257 00:13:29,206 --> 00:13:32,146 There was a particular day when we were doing our presentations where you're 258 00:13:32,146 --> 00:13:35,626 pitching the idea of the podcast that you wanna make, but my idea, if my 259 00:13:35,626 --> 00:13:39,046 memory serves me correct, it was about a comedy podcast and one of the judges 260 00:13:39,046 --> 00:13:41,956 happened to be the head of development at Goalhanger, and we had a really 261 00:13:41,956 --> 00:13:43,546 interesting conversation afterwards. 262 00:13:43,676 --> 00:13:46,891 And she remembered me when later on they were looking for some freelancers 263 00:13:46,891 --> 00:13:50,161 to do some work for them, and I threw my hat in the ring and that's kind 264 00:13:50,161 --> 00:13:51,331 of how the opportunity came about. 265 00:13:51,691 --> 00:13:54,391 So I did some work for them last summer while they were short staffed 266 00:13:54,391 --> 00:13:57,181 in September, I applied for a full-time position there and I've 267 00:13:57,181 --> 00:13:58,231 been working there since October. 268 00:13:58,231 --> 00:13:58,381 Now. 269 00:13:58,501 --> 00:13:59,041 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 270 00:13:59,161 --> 00:14:01,411 I think a lot of our audience is Canadian and American. 271 00:14:01,411 --> 00:14:04,501 So when you say football, you're talking about soccer? 272 00:14:05,011 --> 00:14:05,461 Max'ed Aadan: Yes. 273 00:14:05,461 --> 00:14:05,821 Yes. 274 00:14:06,116 --> 00:14:07,926 Neil McPhedran: And for those people who don't know, Goalhanger 275 00:14:08,066 --> 00:14:09,326 is a pretty big deal there. 276 00:14:09,326 --> 00:14:11,726 That's a big more than podcasting. 277 00:14:11,816 --> 00:14:15,146 Max'ed Aadan: Well, they do a lot of things now, live shows, festivals, 278 00:14:15,146 --> 00:14:18,236 merchandising, memberships, loads of different things. 279 00:14:18,236 --> 00:14:21,596 So I would, I would probably classify more closely to being a media 280 00:14:21,596 --> 00:14:26,271 brand, media publisher, and they kind of redefined what is possible. 281 00:14:26,271 --> 00:14:30,201 Because the industry in the uk, whilst there's a long historic track record of 282 00:14:30,201 --> 00:14:34,491 making great radio and audio programs, they've kind of broken the mold. 283 00:14:34,491 --> 00:14:38,091 And it feels more akin to what you happen to see over in North America, the kind 284 00:14:38,091 --> 00:14:41,406 of global outlook that is quite fast. 285 00:14:41,466 --> 00:14:42,906 Jennifer-Lee: You guys do some really cool stuff. 286 00:14:42,906 --> 00:14:46,425 Can you tell us a little bit about another neat project that you guys got 287 00:14:46,425 --> 00:14:49,395 to work on, which is the UN project? 288 00:14:49,395 --> 00:14:51,951 So tell us a little bit about how that came about and what 289 00:14:51,951 --> 00:14:53,031 you guys did on the project. 290 00:14:53,091 --> 00:14:56,211 Chloe Sackur: Well, that's another thing that came about thanks to Brett. 291 00:14:56,961 --> 00:15:02,451 He was in New York and he got talking to someone and they happened to be from the 292 00:15:02,451 --> 00:15:08,271 UNFPA, the agency that's responsible for women's health and equality for the UN. 293 00:15:08,691 --> 00:15:12,681 They had been thinking about doing a podcast series, and so 294 00:15:12,801 --> 00:15:15,171 we were brought on to produce it. 295 00:15:15,561 --> 00:15:19,131 The podcast that we produced is called Women's World Equity by 296 00:15:19,131 --> 00:15:24,616 Design, and it's a six part series, which was released in the autumn. 297 00:15:24,890 --> 00:15:27,290 We basically split into groups. 298 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,330 That's the way that we worked behind the scenes. 299 00:15:29,540 --> 00:15:34,700 So there are about, so three or four students per group who developed an 300 00:15:34,700 --> 00:15:40,460 episode each based around a particular theme that the UNFPA sourced guests for. 301 00:15:40,460 --> 00:15:44,510 And they tended to be experts in a particular field. 302 00:15:44,900 --> 00:15:49,610 And I believe Max'ed, you worked on the sports themed episode. 303 00:15:49,610 --> 00:15:50,755 Max'ed Aadan: That's correct, yes. 304 00:15:50,755 --> 00:15:52,220 Chloe Sackur: So perhaps you can tell us about that. 305 00:15:52,220 --> 00:15:53,420 It's on brand for you. 306 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,300 Max'ed Aadan: Unfortunately, I'm being pigeonholed a little bit, but yes. 307 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,880 It was all about the inequities in the world, specifically 308 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:01,890 regarding women in various fields. 309 00:16:01,890 --> 00:16:05,340 So not just sports, but in technology, in health finance. 310 00:16:05,790 --> 00:16:08,940 And as Chloe said, we got to develop and work on an individual episode. 311 00:16:08,940 --> 00:16:12,735 But what was quite nice was there was regular production and development 312 00:16:12,735 --> 00:16:16,845 meetings with the UN talk about our progress and what we're thinking 313 00:16:16,845 --> 00:16:19,935 and how we're gonna develop it, what the tone is gonna be, what 314 00:16:19,935 --> 00:16:21,405 the voice of the show is gonna be. 315 00:16:21,765 --> 00:16:23,595 And there was quite a lot of moving parts. 316 00:16:23,625 --> 00:16:26,265 Obviously, as you can imagine, the UN is a global organization. 317 00:16:26,625 --> 00:16:26,685 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 318 00:16:26,685 --> 00:16:28,425 Max'ed Aadan: And you have to liaise with different experts 319 00:16:28,425 --> 00:16:29,745 in different parts of the world. 320 00:16:30,285 --> 00:16:33,225 Sourcing the interviews themselves, figuring out how much of this do 321 00:16:33,225 --> 00:16:36,675 we include, what is the perspective that we're trying to present here? 322 00:16:37,035 --> 00:16:39,105 Speaking specifically from the sport element. 323 00:16:39,575 --> 00:16:43,445 We thought it was quite interesting to talk, not just in the in inequities 324 00:16:43,445 --> 00:16:46,685 that we've been experience in sport, but the foundational structures 325 00:16:46,685 --> 00:16:49,145 that make it difficult for women to have an even playing field. 326 00:16:49,205 --> 00:16:51,455 Things that you perhaps don't always even think about. 327 00:16:51,755 --> 00:16:55,805 Things like having equal access to facilities, having the same kind of 328 00:16:55,805 --> 00:16:59,435 consideration that goes into training and the health and science aspect of 329 00:16:59,435 --> 00:17:03,545 sports, and it was fascinating for us to explore that in different areas. 330 00:17:04,145 --> 00:17:06,125 Jennifer-Lee: I found that one episode really interesting where 331 00:17:06,125 --> 00:17:08,090 they were talking about footwear. 332 00:17:08,090 --> 00:17:13,850 One of the athletes had to wear men's shoes because women's 333 00:17:13,910 --> 00:17:16,580 footwear for running is not at par. 334 00:17:16,580 --> 00:17:18,380 And I was like, that is so crazy to me. 335 00:17:18,380 --> 00:17:20,390 And the fact that she couldn't fit into it. 336 00:17:20,890 --> 00:17:23,826 Max'ed Aadan: There was an amazing researcher we spoke with who speaks about 337 00:17:23,826 --> 00:17:27,522 how the very foundation of the research that gets used in sports science in 338 00:17:27,522 --> 00:17:31,709 particular, most of the data set, is the average male, the average male weights. 339 00:17:31,739 --> 00:17:35,129 So all the data that's being collected and all this understanding that we have, 340 00:17:35,131 --> 00:17:38,106 that then gets put into place by the kind of training people have to do, the 341 00:17:38,106 --> 00:17:39,756 kind of regimes they have to be part of. 342 00:17:40,386 --> 00:17:43,416 It's flawed from the very beginning because the data did not include women. 343 00:17:44,526 --> 00:17:44,886 Jennifer-Lee: It's crazy. 344 00:17:44,886 --> 00:17:45,636 And that's many industries. 345 00:17:45,770 --> 00:17:46,340 Chloe Sackur: Absolutely. 346 00:17:46,340 --> 00:17:50,780 And I think that the episode I worked on was about financing for solutions 347 00:17:50,780 --> 00:17:58,030 for women, so generally healthcare, but also that we spoke to Mariam has created 348 00:17:58,030 --> 00:17:59,920 an app based around women's safety. 349 00:18:00,770 --> 00:18:03,740 They were talking about the fact that behind the scenes, when you're trying 350 00:18:03,740 --> 00:18:09,316 to get financing for your idea, and it's something that is aimed at women, perhaps 351 00:18:09,316 --> 00:18:14,566 it's to do with that app, or it's to do with research into endometriosis, which 352 00:18:14,566 --> 00:18:16,636 affects millions of women worldwide. 353 00:18:17,086 --> 00:18:22,576 Unfortunately, if you are a female founder, you are often in a room with 354 00:18:22,831 --> 00:18:26,026 a bunch of men who do not understand. 355 00:18:26,326 --> 00:18:28,216 They don't have the lived experience or they just. 356 00:18:28,286 --> 00:18:32,771 Kind of don't care about these issues, and so they're not 357 00:18:32,771 --> 00:18:34,938 gonna open up their checkbooks. 358 00:18:35,298 --> 00:18:40,128 And so it's really, really tough, and so a tiny, tiny minority of those 359 00:18:40,128 --> 00:18:42,498 startups get venture capital funding. 360 00:18:42,648 --> 00:18:43,788 So it's all those sorts of things. 361 00:18:43,788 --> 00:18:45,228 The hidden networks. 362 00:18:45,228 --> 00:18:45,348 Neil McPhedran: Mm-hmm. 363 00:18:45,588 --> 00:18:49,098 Chloe Sackur: Behind everything that the series was also looking at addressing. 364 00:18:49,548 --> 00:18:51,858 So it gave a real kind of 360 view. 365 00:18:52,218 --> 00:18:53,508 Neil McPhedran: What an amazing opportunity. 366 00:18:54,103 --> 00:18:58,603 I think as we just discussed, the subject matter of that six part series 367 00:18:58,603 --> 00:19:05,493 you created, what a way to learn about all the facets of producing a podcast 368 00:19:05,493 --> 00:19:11,986 with a very real subject, a very real output, and that international exposure 369 00:19:11,986 --> 00:19:17,281 too, that sounds great, the opposite of theory, super practical, but also very, 370 00:19:17,356 --> 00:19:19,306 very real and quite a worthy topic. 371 00:19:19,419 --> 00:19:20,199 Max'ed Aadan: Absolutely. 372 00:19:20,199 --> 00:19:20,619 Absolutely. 373 00:19:20,619 --> 00:19:23,769 I think the biggest challenge for a lot of students, no matter what you're studying, 374 00:19:23,769 --> 00:19:27,099 is by the time you finish, everybody expects you to have a certain level of 375 00:19:27,099 --> 00:19:31,629 experience to enter the workforce, and we were very fortunate that as part of the 376 00:19:31,629 --> 00:19:34,899 program, we are getting that experience that we need to enter the workforce. 377 00:19:35,019 --> 00:19:38,469 Neil McPhedran: We're at an interesting crossroads in podcasting right now and 378 00:19:38,779 --> 00:19:43,264 Max'ed, your example with Goalhanger where it's much more than just an audio podcast. 379 00:19:43,324 --> 00:19:47,254 What do you feel about where podcasting is going, and do you feel like you've made 380 00:19:47,254 --> 00:19:50,464 the right move to go through this program and you're out the other end and now you 381 00:19:50,464 --> 00:19:52,804 both have careers focused on podcasting? 382 00:19:52,933 --> 00:19:54,793 Max'ed Aadan: I'm 100% certain of that. 383 00:19:54,853 --> 00:19:57,613 One of the things that we spoke about was how the industry in this country in the 384 00:19:57,613 --> 00:20:03,173 UK is 20 years old, but it still feels new and young and it's still quite undefined. 385 00:20:03,603 --> 00:20:07,123 And it feels like the industry is changing every single day because people's 386 00:20:07,123 --> 00:20:08,623 habits are changing every single day. 387 00:20:09,133 --> 00:20:11,083 We no longer have one TV in a home. 388 00:20:11,083 --> 00:20:12,313 We have multiple screens. 389 00:20:12,313 --> 00:20:14,143 We have more than five channels to watch. 390 00:20:14,503 --> 00:20:18,723 So people's attentions are split and podcasting now, thanks to video, it 391 00:20:18,723 --> 00:20:21,363 means that it's essentially a TV show that you have on your phone or on 392 00:20:21,363 --> 00:20:24,753 your tv, and you can watch it anytime, anywhere around the world.And it 393 00:20:24,753 --> 00:20:28,393 has kind of changed what's possible and how people interact with that. 394 00:20:28,553 --> 00:20:31,613 I think that's probably why Chloe and I gravitate towards it, right? 395 00:20:32,003 --> 00:20:34,733 Chloe Sackur: Yeah, I think it's an interesting one because for me 396 00:20:34,733 --> 00:20:39,563 the appeal of podcast is freedom to explore a subject in depth. 397 00:20:39,833 --> 00:20:43,043 You know, that was what was so fun because you can talk to 398 00:20:43,043 --> 00:20:46,073 people who don't necessarily have a big platform or a big name, 399 00:20:46,433 --> 00:20:46,673 Neil McPhedran: right. 400 00:20:46,703 --> 00:20:50,813 Chloe Sackur: About a subject that isn't necessarily something that is going to 401 00:20:50,813 --> 00:20:56,513 be prime time or you know, the BBC or the CBC, other networks are available. 402 00:20:56,843 --> 00:21:01,403 And so it's the opportunity to go into something in great depth. 403 00:21:01,493 --> 00:21:05,783 I probably have a bias towards audio because for me, I'm very 404 00:21:05,783 --> 00:21:10,223 much a person that likes to do things whilst I'm listening and 405 00:21:10,223 --> 00:21:12,203 that's how I take in information. 406 00:21:12,353 --> 00:21:14,633 It's either by sitting and reading or by listening. 407 00:21:14,693 --> 00:21:19,673 I'm less of a kind of sit and watch unless it's a film or something. 408 00:21:19,853 --> 00:21:20,723 So for me. 409 00:21:21,453 --> 00:21:25,443 I hope that those kind of in-depth investigative podcasts continue 410 00:21:25,503 --> 00:21:27,033 in the same vein as they have. 411 00:21:27,363 --> 00:21:32,703 But I certainly agree that it's in this kind of new stage where everything 412 00:21:32,703 --> 00:21:35,433 is expanding into this visual world. 413 00:21:35,853 --> 00:21:40,203 And we've had this big announcement from Apple last week saying that they're gonna 414 00:21:40,203 --> 00:21:42,303 have this kind of seamless transition. 415 00:21:42,303 --> 00:21:46,143 You can start listening on your commute or whatever, and then you get home 416 00:21:46,143 --> 00:21:49,563 and you can pick up your phone and watch it from the point that you left 417 00:21:49,563 --> 00:21:51,998 off or put it on your TV or whatever. 418 00:21:52,298 --> 00:21:55,718 So that sort of suggests that they are really thinking 419 00:21:55,778 --> 00:21:57,608 about that user experience. 420 00:21:57,968 --> 00:21:59,108 And you know, Max'ed is right. 421 00:21:59,198 --> 00:22:01,208 We are not static. 422 00:22:01,208 --> 00:22:03,368 We are not doing the same thing every day. 423 00:22:03,368 --> 00:22:04,808 We are changeable in our habits. 424 00:22:05,218 --> 00:22:05,678 Unless you're me. 425 00:22:07,269 --> 00:22:07,929 Jennifer-Lee: But think you bring, I, 426 00:22:08,009 --> 00:22:09,089 Chloe Sackur: I just headphones all the time. 427 00:22:10,114 --> 00:22:11,624 Jennifer-Lee: I think you bring up a great point Chloe. 428 00:22:11,644 --> 00:22:14,374 As much as video is important, we're seeing all these platforms changing. 429 00:22:14,824 --> 00:22:18,214 I also don't think every podcast needs to be videoed. 430 00:22:18,214 --> 00:22:18,484 Yes. 431 00:22:18,484 --> 00:22:19,474 We can't hide from it. 432 00:22:19,474 --> 00:22:21,694 But I also don't think we should be pressured into. 433 00:22:21,694 --> 00:22:23,944 If you wanna do an audio podcast and like some of them 434 00:22:24,619 --> 00:22:26,539 lend themselves to just audio. 435 00:22:26,539 --> 00:22:30,259 Like I can't imagine, like I'm sure there would be a great documentary 436 00:22:30,619 --> 00:22:33,769 that it could do, but like The Kill List podcast, I loved it. 437 00:22:34,099 --> 00:22:38,779 I binged it on a car ride, and it is such a masterpiece because 438 00:22:38,779 --> 00:22:41,539 they have all these sound effects and everything, and it's so good. 439 00:22:41,539 --> 00:22:44,744 Like I didn't need visual to listen to that one. 440 00:22:45,164 --> 00:22:46,514 Chloe Sackur: I love that podcast too. 441 00:22:46,544 --> 00:22:48,064 I was a bit of a bore about it. 442 00:22:48,164 --> 00:22:50,834 Max'ed can probably attest to the fact I was like, everyone 443 00:22:51,034 --> 00:22:51,794 listen to this podcast. 444 00:22:52,274 --> 00:22:56,654 But I would suggest that maybe a lot of people might not have agreed to take 445 00:22:56,654 --> 00:23:01,904 part in that 'cause it's very sensitive issues and hiding people's identity, 446 00:23:02,144 --> 00:23:07,784 obviously you can do that in a TV format, but I wonder if people might have been 447 00:23:07,784 --> 00:23:12,774 less open to appearing on that if it hadn't been in the podcast format. 448 00:23:12,984 --> 00:23:16,764 For all I know, maybe they've got another series in the works and it's 449 00:23:16,764 --> 00:23:20,874 gonna be fully visualized, so I'll have to eat my hat if that's the case. 450 00:23:21,024 --> 00:23:22,194 Jennifer-Lee: I never thought of that though. 451 00:23:22,194 --> 00:23:24,294 So for anyone that doesn't know what we're talking about, basically 452 00:23:24,294 --> 00:23:28,644 there was this like list on the dark web of people around the world that 453 00:23:28,644 --> 00:23:32,784 basically you could pay to get someone killed with Bitcoin if you wanted to. 454 00:23:32,784 --> 00:23:37,614 And so this journalist in London went and basically warned everyone. 455 00:23:38,124 --> 00:23:40,314 But you brought up a really good point because. 456 00:23:40,764 --> 00:23:44,244 I don't think, yeah, because they were still trying to figure out some 457 00:23:44,244 --> 00:23:47,244 people's mysteries too, and this was before the police caught some of the 458 00:23:47,244 --> 00:23:49,194 people that were gonna kill them. 459 00:23:49,374 --> 00:23:54,174 So I don't know if I really wanna watch just a whole bunch of like fuzzy faces 460 00:23:55,524 --> 00:23:57,594 Chloe Sackur: there's other ways to make it dramatic. 461 00:23:58,194 --> 00:24:01,749 Neil McPhedran: Chloe, what, what would be some advice that you would 462 00:24:01,749 --> 00:24:06,624 give prospective students considering a specialized program like this versus 463 00:24:06,624 --> 00:24:08,874 the more traditional theoretical? 464 00:24:10,374 --> 00:24:13,824 Chloe Sackur: Be open to trying new stuff. 465 00:24:13,854 --> 00:24:18,564 The best thing that I did was go, can I learn new skills at this point in my life? 466 00:24:19,044 --> 00:24:20,094 Yes I can. 467 00:24:20,254 --> 00:24:21,864 Giving it the old college try. 468 00:24:22,134 --> 00:24:25,164 I entered it with that attitude of I'm gonna try and learn 469 00:24:25,164 --> 00:24:30,573 everything, but no course can teach you how to do it all by yourself. 470 00:24:30,573 --> 00:24:32,523 You have to go away and practice. 471 00:24:32,553 --> 00:24:37,113 From week one, I sat down and I just practiced editing and I practiced 472 00:24:37,113 --> 00:24:40,083 figuring out things I told myself. 473 00:24:40,473 --> 00:24:44,373 Because I've never opened up Adobe before that summer. 474 00:24:44,643 --> 00:24:48,033 I thought, I'm gonna practice so that I can build up the muscle memory. 475 00:24:48,273 --> 00:24:48,483 Neil McPhedran: Mm. 476 00:24:48,813 --> 00:24:50,403 Chloe Sackur: Because you need to. 477 00:24:50,523 --> 00:24:53,583 You're gonna be really slow otherwise if you don't do that. 478 00:24:53,973 --> 00:24:55,473 So that was one element. 479 00:24:55,653 --> 00:24:58,893 The other thing is to just try out new stuff. 480 00:24:58,893 --> 00:24:59,343 So. 481 00:24:59,798 --> 00:25:05,108 I sat down and wrote a 10 minute script for an audio drama, and 482 00:25:05,108 --> 00:25:09,698 then I roped in some people, including Max'ed to star in it. 483 00:25:09,848 --> 00:25:11,288 I didn't really give you much of a choice. 484 00:25:11,288 --> 00:25:13,748 I was just like, please just play the main male role in this. 485 00:25:13,908 --> 00:25:15,678 It was kind of like a romantic drama. 486 00:25:15,678 --> 00:25:20,688 I paired you with another student, but in a way your character was kind of playing 487 00:25:21,048 --> 00:25:24,798 uh, not exactly a villainist role, but you understand a bit more about him. 488 00:25:25,128 --> 00:25:25,578 By the end. 489 00:25:27,078 --> 00:25:29,798 He breaks the main character's heart at the beginning. 490 00:25:30,077 --> 00:25:33,107 And so, I thought I'm gonna do that just 'cause I wanna learn 491 00:25:33,107 --> 00:25:34,877 how to soundscape an audio drama. 492 00:25:34,877 --> 00:25:34,907 Neil McPhedran: Mm. 493 00:25:35,937 --> 00:25:38,307 Chloe Sackur: And I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna try and record 494 00:25:38,307 --> 00:25:40,557 as much of it as I can myself. 495 00:25:41,007 --> 00:25:45,777 I possibly bit off a little more than I could chew, because I had a lot 496 00:25:45,777 --> 00:25:50,877 on and I had to try and soundscape and edit and record and everything. 497 00:25:50,877 --> 00:25:54,117 It's very hard to direct and record at the same time. 498 00:25:54,117 --> 00:25:57,537 If I were to do that again, I would get someone to be a recordist. 499 00:25:58,077 --> 00:25:59,157 But we live and we learn. 500 00:26:00,327 --> 00:26:01,437 It's about trying stuff. 501 00:26:01,497 --> 00:26:03,297 I may not know that I have. 502 00:26:03,947 --> 00:26:08,497 All of the experience and all of the knowledge quite yet, but I'm not really 503 00:26:08,497 --> 00:26:13,597 gonna get any further until I grab that mic and I just go out and do it. 504 00:26:13,717 --> 00:26:19,297 Allowing yourself to not be perfect, that is really important and that's something 505 00:26:19,297 --> 00:26:21,487 that I'm continuing to remind myself with. 506 00:26:21,557 --> 00:26:25,637 A podcast that I make with a friend called Total Nineties Recall, twice 507 00:26:25,777 --> 00:26:28,087 a month we record a podcast together. 508 00:26:28,387 --> 00:26:32,977 We know that we're not gonna speak like BBC presenters, but we are 509 00:26:32,977 --> 00:26:36,847 going to hopefully get some good material out there and edit it later. 510 00:26:36,877 --> 00:26:42,187 I think it's about allowing yourself to experiment and improve over time. 511 00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:46,020 Neil McPhedran: Max, any bits of advice for prospective students 512 00:26:46,020 --> 00:26:47,970 considering a program like this? 513 00:26:47,970 --> 00:26:51,977 Ways to judge various podcasting programs at the university level? 514 00:26:52,305 --> 00:26:55,215 Max'ed Aadan: I think the first thing I would suggest is to speak to the 515 00:26:55,215 --> 00:26:57,975 people that are running the course the other course leaders or module 516 00:26:57,975 --> 00:27:01,270 leaders, don't be afraid to send them an email and say, I'm interested in 517 00:27:01,275 --> 00:27:04,455 this course, even if it's months before the deadlines of applying for anything. 518 00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:06,770 You're not gonna be held to your word. 519 00:27:06,770 --> 00:27:09,770 So even if you're just exploring it, ask them all the questions that you have. 520 00:27:09,770 --> 00:27:10,880 How does this work? 521 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:11,990 What's the program like? 522 00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:13,220 What's the process for this? 523 00:27:13,286 --> 00:27:16,526 Because a lot of the time, university perspectives online, they're very 524 00:27:16,526 --> 00:27:19,766 flashy and they're enticing and it all looks great, but you might not know 525 00:27:19,766 --> 00:27:21,716 exactly how it works in practical terms. 526 00:27:22,256 --> 00:27:25,346 And once you understand that, then you'll know whether it's the right place for you. 527 00:27:25,528 --> 00:27:28,806 Know why you're going to do it, because anytime you go into do higher education, 528 00:27:28,806 --> 00:27:31,236 it's quite a lot of investment, not just financially, but your time. 529 00:27:31,236 --> 00:27:32,346 You could be doing anything else. 530 00:27:32,991 --> 00:27:35,595 One of the things I loved about my experience at City, was the 531 00:27:35,595 --> 00:27:37,035 collaborative nature of everything. 532 00:27:37,185 --> 00:27:41,191 Working on a module that then turns into a passion project and then continuing it 533 00:27:41,191 --> 00:27:44,221 on even though we have deadlines 'cause we really enjoy the work that we're doing. 534 00:27:44,301 --> 00:27:46,461 Also exploring what other people's interests are. 535 00:27:46,481 --> 00:27:50,538 If you're working in a technical capacity, somebody else who has a totally different 536 00:27:50,538 --> 00:27:53,298 interest to you might show you something that you weren't considering before. 537 00:27:53,358 --> 00:27:54,888 And don't be afraid to change your mind. 538 00:27:55,458 --> 00:27:58,668 I went into the course thinking one thing about myself and what I would like to do, 539 00:27:59,118 --> 00:28:02,148 and by the time I finished it all changed and I was really grateful for that. 540 00:28:02,465 --> 00:28:05,405 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and I think being flexible, like you said, when I went 541 00:28:05,405 --> 00:28:09,775 to school for radio, I would've never thought that I'd owned a podcast company 542 00:28:09,775 --> 00:28:12,235 because I was very young when I was there. 543 00:28:12,235 --> 00:28:18,235 And your course gives you a good base, but you really gotta be adaptable. 544 00:28:18,385 --> 00:28:22,315 And being able to know what's coming up and the trends and being able to shift. 545 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,150 Max'ed Aadan: Say yes to as many things as your time allows you to. 546 00:28:25,780 --> 00:28:29,110 The more you say yes to things, not just for the course, but a colleague will 547 00:28:29,110 --> 00:28:31,720 mention, oh, I'm doing this project, would like, would you like to help me out? 548 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:32,350 Say yes. 549 00:28:32,670 --> 00:28:33,710 Then look at the message boards. 550 00:28:33,730 --> 00:28:37,600 See what people are looking for help with, try and do it all because whether 551 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,140 it's 10 months, couple of years, time will fly and by the time you finish, 552 00:28:41,170 --> 00:28:43,840 you'll be out in the big world and you'll be busy working and you won't 553 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:44,685 have those opportunities again. 554 00:28:45,305 --> 00:28:48,918 Chloe Sackur: Mm. I'd also just add that when it comes to electives, we 555 00:28:48,918 --> 00:28:50,628 had to choose ours pretty early on. 556 00:28:50,628 --> 00:28:52,548 I think before the course started even. 557 00:28:52,578 --> 00:28:56,538 I took investigative and it was really scary. 558 00:28:57,258 --> 00:28:58,818 I didn't know what I was doing. 559 00:28:59,238 --> 00:29:03,468 For half a time I regretted it and I thought I should have done film and tv. 560 00:29:03,468 --> 00:29:04,548 That's what I wanna do. 561 00:29:04,998 --> 00:29:09,348 But once I started to get to grips with it, I produced something I was quite proud 562 00:29:09,348 --> 00:29:11,058 of and I found out some interesting stuff. 563 00:29:11,058 --> 00:29:15,648 So throwing yourself in the deep end is worth doing rather than staying 564 00:29:15,648 --> 00:29:17,748 in the shallows where you're used to. 565 00:29:17,988 --> 00:29:19,938 I had to publish things on TikTok. 566 00:29:20,298 --> 00:29:20,808 I was terrified. 567 00:29:24,263 --> 00:29:29,963 Haven't done it since, but I really had to dig deep and engage with social 568 00:29:29,963 --> 00:29:32,003 media platforms I was not used to. 569 00:29:32,213 --> 00:29:34,673 Jennifer-Lee: What advice would you give to people coming out 570 00:29:34,673 --> 00:29:37,133 as students and wanting to work? 571 00:29:37,133 --> 00:29:41,573 Chloe Sackur: Well, that's quite a tricky one because it is a tough time. 572 00:29:41,743 --> 00:29:46,513 I suppose, and it's advice that I need to keep in mind as well, is I 573 00:29:46,513 --> 00:29:50,353 think it's about trying to really meet as many people as possible in the 574 00:29:50,353 --> 00:29:55,273 industry and have conversations with people where you approach it as asking 575 00:29:55,273 --> 00:30:00,223 for advice or finding out about that person rather than asking for a job. 576 00:30:00,593 --> 00:30:04,018 And I think, my first summer after finishing the course, I've sent off 577 00:30:04,018 --> 00:30:07,378 lots of emails to various companies being like, I really love what you 578 00:30:07,378 --> 00:30:08,548 do, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 579 00:30:09,118 --> 00:30:10,258 Do you have any work? 580 00:30:10,318 --> 00:30:12,208 And it just wasn't going anywhere. 581 00:30:12,448 --> 00:30:17,128 And so probably the best thing for me was just reaching out to 582 00:30:17,128 --> 00:30:21,838 people through LinkedIn or we have a network and just sort of talking 583 00:30:21,838 --> 00:30:26,098 to people and asking them about themselves and what advice they have. 584 00:30:26,098 --> 00:30:29,098 And you never know how these things will kind of all link up. 585 00:30:29,188 --> 00:30:29,788 I'd say. 586 00:30:30,078 --> 00:30:32,508 It's very much a contact based industry. 587 00:30:32,538 --> 00:30:34,218 Max'ed Aadan: I think that's very astute advice from Chloe. 588 00:30:34,218 --> 00:30:37,188 The other thing I'd mention is if the field you're trying to go 589 00:30:37,188 --> 00:30:40,038 into, it's a technical field where you have to prove your skill. 590 00:30:40,578 --> 00:30:42,468 There's no harm in proving your skill by building a 591 00:30:42,468 --> 00:30:44,178 portfolio with passion projects. 592 00:30:44,568 --> 00:30:46,398 Your friend wants to start a podcast. 593 00:30:46,398 --> 00:30:46,728 Great. 594 00:30:47,138 --> 00:30:49,688 Do the technical side for them, record it additive, help produce 595 00:30:49,688 --> 00:30:52,568 it, build a portfolio of work so that when the opportunity does 596 00:30:52,568 --> 00:30:55,628 arise and somebody says, I do have an opportunity, what have you done? 597 00:30:55,988 --> 00:30:58,268 You can say, these are the skills I have and this is how 598 00:30:58,268 --> 00:30:59,288 I can demonstrate it to you. 599 00:30:59,378 --> 00:31:02,618 And most of the time people know that as long as you can do this skill, 600 00:31:02,708 --> 00:31:03,758 people will take a chance on you. 601 00:31:04,658 --> 00:31:06,788 You just have to try and get that as much as possible. 602 00:31:07,328 --> 00:31:07,598 Jennifer-Lee: Mm-hmm. 603 00:31:07,808 --> 00:31:08,978 That's great advice. 604 00:31:09,038 --> 00:31:09,638 Neil McPhedran: That was great. 605 00:31:09,638 --> 00:31:13,841 Thank you both so much for joining us and for sharing your experience.. This 606 00:31:13,841 --> 00:31:18,071 was a great conversation there's a lot of takeaways for the audience here today. 607 00:31:18,071 --> 00:31:18,851 Thank you so much. 608 00:31:19,061 --> 00:31:19,921 Chloe Sackur: Thanks for having us. 609 00:31:20,251 --> 00:31:21,081 Max'ed Aadan: Thank you for having us. 610 00:31:21,081 --> 00:31:21,291 Yeah. 611 00:31:22,071 --> 00:31:25,551 Jennifer-Lee: Neil, I know you and I have been in podcasting for a bit, but I 612 00:31:25,551 --> 00:31:27,351 really think we should take that course. 613 00:31:27,351 --> 00:31:30,431 I'm really inspired after talking to Chloe and Max'ed. 614 00:31:30,681 --> 00:31:32,511 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, what a great program. 615 00:31:32,871 --> 00:31:36,321 It's really interesting to dig into. 616 00:31:36,881 --> 00:31:38,531 The teaching of podcasting. 617 00:31:38,531 --> 00:31:43,901 So often we're talking about podcasting being used for alumni or 618 00:31:43,901 --> 00:31:48,761 for recruitment, or for a professor or for educational purposes. 619 00:31:48,761 --> 00:31:53,111 So this was a great episode where we kind of flipped it a bit and focused on the 620 00:31:53,111 --> 00:31:55,931 teaching of podcasting in a university. 621 00:31:56,638 --> 00:31:57,238 Jennifer-Lee: Love it. 622 00:31:57,328 --> 00:31:57,598 Okay. 623 00:31:57,598 --> 00:32:01,738 Thank you so much for tuning into the Continuing Studies podcast, a podcast 624 00:32:01,738 --> 00:32:03,778 for higher education podcasters. 625 00:32:04,048 --> 00:32:07,198 We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring. 626 00:32:07,198 --> 00:32:10,318 If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our 627 00:32:10,318 --> 00:32:13,978 podcast on your preferred platform, so you'll never miss an episode. 628 00:32:14,308 --> 00:32:17,788 But if you found this episode particularly valuable, please consider 629 00:32:17,788 --> 00:32:20,458 sharing it with your friends and colleagues who also might be interested 630 00:32:20,458 --> 00:32:22,258 in higher education podcasts. 631 00:32:22,468 --> 00:32:24,728 We also invite you to join your peers on higheredpods.com. 632 00:32:26,368 --> 00:32:29,818 Where you can connect with other podcasters in higher education and 633 00:32:29,818 --> 00:32:31,288 learn from others in the field. 634 00:32:31,618 --> 00:32:33,388 Thank you for being part of our community. 635 00:32:33,388 --> 00:32:37,078 We look forward to continuing to bring you valuable insights and conversations 636 00:32:37,138 --> 00:32:39,388 around higher education podcasts. 637 00:32:39,388 --> 00:32:40,458 See you in the next episode.