Zoe: Welcome to the Autism and Theology podcast, brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen.

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology podcast. I'm Zoe and I'm joined with Krisha this week for our Cat Chat episode of this month. This podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways to help faith and non faith communities enable autistic people to flourish.

The podcast is run from the University of Aberdeen's Centre for Autism and Theology which we shorten to, CAT. So today, Krisha and I are going to have a conversation around change and just update you on some of the stuff we've been doing and how we've navigated change in our lives over the last few months.

So yeah, Krisha, what have you been up to? You've had a lot of major changes recently. 

Krysia: I submitted my thesis at the end of June, finally, after six years, so I was part time, which is why it was a six year, um, journey, program, experience, various ones to describe it. And then actually only a couple of weeks, that was last week, actually, from when we're recording, so we're recording middle of August, um, at the beginning of August, I actually started my first kind of big substantive job, I'd obviously throughout my PhD had lots of smaller contracts doing research assistant work and teaching both kind of religious studies and both in autism, critical autism studies in particular.

Um, but I've got a new job. job where I'm working four days a week at Swansea University on Dr. Amy Grant's Wellcome funded project on autism from menstruation to menopause looking at autistic people with, with wounds and their experiences with periods, menopause, giving birth, basically everything to do with gynecological health.

So it's basically building on my, the experience I've gained throughout my PhD, um, with, uh, talking to autistic people who have attended churches and mosques and kind of building on more of those kind of interviewing skills.

Zoe: It's so cool and I think just it'll be really interesting on the podcast like I hope we can like have updates so that people can hear how this project's going because it just sounds so new and so needed as well 

so yeah, it'll be really cool to be working on that project. 

Krysia: Yeah, it's really exciting. It's obviously all really new. Um, my new laptop arrived yesterday, which was great fun. Um, so I've kind of historically always been an Apple user. So I'm now getting used to using a Windows. And a Mac kind of into kind of not at the same time, but for different tasks.

So learning how things work between two computers, um, dealing with the kind of different university systems as well. So although I've kind of done small ad hoc things across different universities, Um, I guess this is the first time I'm dealing with.

I've been working with a different university systems quite exclusively and quite in depth as well. So I'm quite used to the way that Kent did things and how their systems and processes and where to find things and who to talk to. And I'm now finding out the kind of new people that I need to talk to and the new ways of doing things and seeing how they differ.

So making sure I'm kind of really up to date on that. Um, and I guess because it's all so new, it's just been a matter of me getting my hands around it. kind of head around the fact that everything is now, it's, it's a different role. So it's, and it's got a different, it's, it's different to my PhD. It's a slightly different setup as well.

So there's that element of change as well. It's really positive change. It's been quite overwhelming as well. And I, I guess that's quite across the board for kind of, I guess, a lot of neurodivergent people. And we have big, change. It can be really, really overwhelming, basically, even if it's a really positive one.

Zoe: Yeah, I think that's it. It's like, when you have so many different things going on, and on top of that, your functioning is slightly different to the average neurotypical person, it can be so hard to just make these adjustments.

Um, I know I, so over summer I have been doing an internship, and I think one of the things that I found hard, like on top of the fact that was going to be changes using new systems, which they've actually been, I'm working with Bible Society, and they've been so good. They're very clear on how you, um, navigate their systems.

But on top of that you've also got this sort of like mental health associated fears of change of like people are going to think I'm stupid, like people are not going to understand that this is the way my brain works, which it hasn't been at all, but you've got that on top of like all these other things and yeah it can be tricky.

Krysia: Yeah, I mean I'm very fortunate I've basically come into an all autistic team, which is obviously fantastic, but they've I guess even though I am coming into an autistic team, there's still those worries and that overwhelm and that fear there. Even though everyone has been incredibly supportive and friendly and really helpful and obviously giving very detailed information on what I need to do, it just doesn't diminish the amount of kind of change overwhelm.

It just makes it slightly more kind of manageable because you know people aren't going to be as perhaps judgmental perhaps. 

Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so cool as well, like thinking about that like I guess in the context of like this podcast and faith communities like understanding that change can be extremely difficult for neurodivergent people is so important and just like how we sort of manage our expectations or like understanding that everyone functions differently is so important.

Krysia: It really is and I think We, I think often my experience of when I think about how people often manage change is people, oh, you don't like change. We'll impose a structure on you and you can do this. We can do this for you rather than being, let's work around you in a really kind of you centered way. And I guess when I was at Kent, this was called person centered working and person centered planning.

But I would almost say that take that a step further. And it really used to be kind of The change instigated by the person who's doing, even if I instigate such change, it's just really overwhelming and be able to take things at my own pace 

is really, really important. 

Zoe: Yeah, I think this is something especially like, so as I said, I've been doing an internship over summer, um, which I have loved so much.

And then I'm away to go into my final year of my PhD just to me that feels very like overwhelming and there's just a lot of things that I'm going to have to do. And I'm so conscious of time. Um, And yeah, it's quite stressful, but it's also just like, what I find really helpful, I guess, is acknowledging that like, one, these changes are my choice, like, um, as difficult as it is, like, I've chosen to do this, and that doesn't make it less difficult, but I guess it's kind of acknowledging, like, no, this is what I want to do, and I'm going to acknowledge that it.

This is what I want to do. Yes, it's making me feel overwhelmed. Yes, I have a lot going on, but actually, like, because I've identified that, I can then put support structures in place to make, to help me manage that a bit easier. Like, I'm, like, learning to acknowledge that to other people and kind of, you know, externalize, is that the word?

My feelings and um, chat through things and I think that's been so helpful for me with navigating like a few wee changes is just having people that I can talk to and also acknowledging that it is what I want even if it's hard and yeah. 

Krysia: And I think also other people just validating that it is hard as well rather than going oh yeah but I did it so you should be able to do it which is always the caveat.

I remember once when I was looking for a new church. And I spoke to someone about this and I hadn't quite found one yet. And, and, and I was like, Oh, but we've been looking for a church for ages. You just need to be more patient. And I'm sitting there going, okay, that, that, that's not really helpful. Yeah.

And, and, and I guess some of those narratives can really persist in churches from my own experience of, well, it's difficult for everybody. Well, yes, it might be, but then there's a kind of being neurodivergent, we face a connect. There's extra levels of difficulty that we're juggling already and that you won't, sometimes you do see us juggling it, sometimes you won't see us juggling it.

Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. And I think just like that in churches and faith communities and just. Relationships in general, like, um, quite often, I think when we talk about positive changes, people maybe can't quite understand that. Like you said, people don't always see the what's going on in the background. Um, and I think when you talk about something positive, like your new job, it's so amazing.

You've got a new job, but it's important that people understand that. Don't feel they can't speak with people about the difficulties of changes because something's good and because, like, obviously getting a job is a privilege, but that doesn't mean you can't acknowledge, oh, that's, you are, like, struggling with a few things and, yeah, like, an openness, I guess, to seeing, like, the nuances of these things.

Krysia: Yeah, because it is very much nuanced because, especially with the current landscape in. The UK higher education system for any kind of international viewers, it's currently quite a fractious and difficult environment for employment and there's lots of universities struggling with funding issues and cuts.

So to be able to have a job literally, you know, have secured a job before I submitted my thesis was actually an immense privilege. Um, especially when I wasn't expecting that. Um, and I'm acutely aware of that and that always makes me feel really bad if I feel overwhelmed. So it's something I'm actively working on to say, okay, it's actually okay, that this is really difficult that I can't perhaps say yes to all the things I want to, certainly not until I've done my VIVA and I've done my corrections that actually that that my capacity is, you know, I need to make sure I look after myself.

Part of that is making sure that I get the training done and I'm ready to do all my work tasks that my line manager and I agree and to help keep the project running and that I look after myself and pass my PhD without piling on all the other extra things that perhaps I maybe could have done a couple of years ago because I knew the system, I knew the rhythm of the PhD, so I knew what I could take on.

So it's finding that new rhythm. 

Zoe: Yeah. Yeah, I really like that way of phrasing it, like, because obviously before we started this we were talking about, um, both of us kind of saying we're not taking on any new things because we're already doing an awful lot and we don't need to do these extra things right now.

Um, but I really like the way you said that, it's like, it's not necessarily like you wouldn't have the time to do all these things or the emotional energy to do these things in another phase of your life. but it's understanding like the rhythm of where you are now and I think that's so important like as neurodivergent people to acknowledge like Even if life maybe looks quite similar in terms of like time schedules, like sometimes we just don't have the like functioning levels to take on something else and it's making sure that we know when those times are so that we don't burn out and um, Yeah.

Krysia: Yeah. And I think I found safeguarding time where I'm definitely not working to be really, really important. So I did take a holiday before I started my new job and I made sure that I had rest time as well between submitting and starting. And I thought that was really important. Yeah. 

Zoe: Yeah, definitely.

Krysia: The other thing was also the fact that obviously gone from just a kind of a heavy kind of writing schedule. So this time last year I was quite deep in the writing of my PhD, pulling bits together, pulling together the analysis that I'd done, um, making sure it flows and then kind of sticking it all together.

So effectively I'm about a year ahead of Zoe. And I think there's that transition from also the more practical side where we might go out and talk to people or go to archives or engage with textual work or however we do the work we do to transitioning to being on your own writing again is another change.

Zoe: Yeah, and I think even just like I'm so aware, I think this is one of the things that's like causing me to feel quite overwhelmed by going into this final year is that I realize like reading is such a challenge for me as a dyslexic person and like. I cope with it, I definitely read less than the average PhD student, which I'm trying to see is not a bad thing, um, and it's just me and it's, yeah, not my skill set, um, and things just take me a bit longer and I am quite nervous for that because this year has been very much like participant heavy and doing my interviews and yeah I've done a significant amount of writing but it's not .

the same kind of, like, writing that I'll be doing this year. It's writing up people's stories, telling the narrative. Whereas this is going to be very reading heavy and it's like, again, just that I know that's going to tire me out more, like a day's work is maybe going to look slightly different when I'm having to, Read multiple journal articles and a day and like do that kind of side of research.

And again, that would just be being aware of like, even if my working days are the same hours or like the same technical level of work, I'm going to be more tired. So then, um. If I take on like writing a journal article in a few months time, that's just not going to be a good idea because it's such a different kind of work that I'll be doing and this is where I'm like, I love having the podcast and things like that because this is going to be a good different way of working that's not gonna tire me out more, you know, like this is, I enjoy this and yeah, I guess it's just having those things in place like I think you mentioned before, self care, like knowing what self care looks like for me, I guess, and 

Krysia: yeah.

Because I think there's certainly, there's a lot of things around kind of narratives around self care. Oh, it's about doing all the difficult things. Or it's, oh, go have a bath, put a face mask on and do your nails. And there's not necessarily that middle ground, which is yes, we do need to do difficult things to make sure that we are maintaining our status quo, but it's also knowing when to step back, when to put things down and when to draw boundaries.

And actually to know that, I mean, certainly when I was writing, I didn't do eight hour days of writing, but I have quite, I have severe visual stress. Um, so for me, the words dance around on the page in a different way to they do for Zoe. Um, so for me reading lots of journal articles, I can, it's very, it's very fluctuating and I'm much better at writing and talking about them necessarily than reading 10 articles back to back I can maybe read one or two, write about those ideas, read another couple after the break then.

So I really have to be quiet. purposeful about the amount of reading that I do. 

Zoe: Yeah. And I guess just on top of that, it's learning that not everything we need to do has to be perfect, especially when we're navigating change. Like, that's not saying you just do things by half or like, oh, like I've written a thesis that'll do it.

But like, it's acknowledging that. Okay, maybe like when this is something I find difficult, it's maybe not going to be as good as someone else doing the same task because of my neurodivergence. This, impact this, if that makes sense. But also acknowledging that because I'm neurodivergent, And because that makes me feel overwhelmed about this equally, it makes me really good at this aspect.

And like identifying your strengths I think can help a lot with navigating change. 

Krysia: Yeah, definitely. Because I think, as I said, I know I'm much stronger at writing. Yeah. And I know I can create things, but sometimes I need to. Intake the information, not just from looking at stuff on a page, either from listening to it, putting it through text to speak, listening to someone talk about it, listening to what, looking at presentation slides is another one that I really like because it's more broken up.

Zoe: Yeah. And I think again, it just like, I think I mentioned this a while back, but again, and something that's definitely a theme with this podcast is that idea of a support network and like, Identifying people who can support you and that's, I mean, it's at the heart of the Christian faith is community.

Yeah. Um, and that's something that drives this podcast as well as community and that sense of like, I don't know, like even speaking to you about like on this episode and before this chat, it makes you feel better when you feel understood and it's like actually a lot of people feel this way. It's not me on my own and yeah, that's a really positive way of navigating change too, is a lot of us feel the same way.

Um, yeah. 

Krysia: Yeah. And finding people who not only get it, but will validate it. It's almost leading back to what we said before. 

Zoe: Yeah. 

Krysia: It's about if people are saying, well, you obviously don't experience that, then perhaps that's not the best person to be having that conversation with. And if, if you can not have that conversation, obviously that again, that comes from a place of privilege and ability from circumstance, but it can help maneuver.

Zoe: Yeah. 

Krysia: Productive for you. 

Zoe: Yeah, and also having like those conversations with people where it will be productive and not just like a echo chamber of like, oh this is awful, this is awful. Like it's identifying those people who understand your experience, validate your experience, but also help you to, and like help you to have the confidence to do these things and kind of build you up so you don't have those experiences of like, I'm not good enough, like, I can't do this.

It's having people can say like, I understand you, I validate your feelings, but you can do this. Um. Yeah. And yeah. Definitely. Definitely important.

Krysia: Yeah, if you want to send us an email or respond to the comments on, social media, if you have any other information, tips, advice, things that have worked, it adds to our conversation. So it's more of a community of what works for all of us and also helps generate dialogue as well.

Zoe: Yeah, we'd definitely love to hear your thoughts and yeah, how you navigate change. It's been so much fun having this chat actually. I feel much less overwhelmed.

Krysia: Same here.

Zoe: Well, thank you all so much for listening and yeah, as we've said, share your experiences on social media in the comments, um, send us an email.

We'd love to hear from you. You can get in touch with us at cat@abdn.ac.uk 

Thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology podcast. If you have any questions for us, or just want to say hi. Please email us at cat at abdn. ac. uk or find us on Twitter at AutismTheology.