Rachel Casey (00:00:05):
Welcome to Sober Banter.

Rachel Casey (00:00:07):
I am Rachel.

Colin Casey (00:00:08):
I am Colin.

Rachel Casey (00:00:09):
I'm so glad I have a co-host today because we have another podcaster joining us on

Rachel Casey (00:00:14):
Sober Banter,

Rachel Casey (00:00:16):
Adam Lyons.

Rachel Casey (00:00:16):
He is the host of the Modern Meeting pod.

Rachel Casey (00:00:20):
Adam shares about stories from...

Rachel Casey (00:00:22):
all things of addiction but really compulsive gambling in addiction and offering

Rachel Casey (00:00:26):
support perspective and personal stories for those walking their path of recovery

Rachel Casey (00:00:34):
and whether you're sober curious or supporting someone who is having addiction or

Rachel Casey (00:00:38):
gambling or in recovery from alcohol drugs this is going to be a great episode to

Rachel Casey (00:00:44):
talk about things that are going from hiding the healing if you will so welcome

Rachel Casey (00:00:49):
adam

Adam Lyons (00:00:50):
Thank you so much for having me, guys.

Adam Lyons (00:00:51):
Appreciate it.

Rachel Casey (00:00:52):
I'm grateful that you have time to be on here.

Rachel Casey (00:00:55):
And thank you for joining us.

Rachel Casey (00:00:56):
One thing we haven't really talked about is gambling.

Rachel Casey (00:00:59):
And I wanted to just hear a little bit about your story and how you got here.

Adam Lyons (00:01:03):
I gambled for 20 years from the age of 18 to 38.

Adam Lyons (00:01:07):
I started out learning how to gamble really young.

Adam Lyons (00:01:11):
My uncle Rick,

Adam Lyons (00:01:12):
who has since passed,

Adam Lyons (00:01:13):
he was a big gambler and he was teaching me how to play craps at like nine years

Adam Lyons (00:01:17):
old.

Adam Lyons (00:01:17):
I was throwing dice against a Monopoly board folded up against my grandma's couch in Cape Cod.

Rachel Casey (00:01:24):
Not how to play craps.

Rachel Casey (00:01:24):
I can't get it.

Rachel Casey (00:01:25):
Don't understand.

Adam Lyons (00:01:26):
Do not learn how to play craps.

Rachel Casey (00:01:27):
That's crazy.

Rachel Casey (00:01:28):
At nine years old.

Adam Lyons (00:01:29):
My first vivid memory, I can remember the dice tumbling down.

Adam Lyons (00:01:32):
And my uncle, hard six, hard six, winner.

Adam Lyons (00:01:35):
And getting that money after that roll of the dice.

Adam Lyons (00:01:38):
And I was like, oh, I like this.

Adam Lyons (00:01:39):
I kind of held on to that through high school, through college.

Adam Lyons (00:01:42):
Well, through high school, I didn't really gamble because I was playing sports, keeping busy.

Adam Lyons (00:01:45):
But once I got to college,

Adam Lyons (00:01:46):
and that was right around the poker boom of 2002,

Adam Lyons (00:01:50):
2003 of Chris Moneymaker winning the World Series of Poker.

Adam Lyons (00:01:52):
For the first two years of college, I went to EMS Amherst.

Adam Lyons (00:01:55):
I went to class, barely, and I played poker.

Adam Lyons (00:01:57):
That's all I did.

Adam Lyons (00:01:58):
I didn't really socialize.

Adam Lyons (00:02:00):
I met a small group of people on my floor who all liked poker, and we were just obsessed.

Adam Lyons (00:02:05):
Online poker was still legal at that point.

Adam Lyons (00:02:07):
The money wasn't an issue because I was a college kid.

Adam Lyons (00:02:10):
I didn't have much money, but...

Adam Lyons (00:02:13):
The addiction was setting in.

Adam Lyons (00:02:14):
I can remember calling my parents saying, hey, I need a book for school.

Adam Lyons (00:02:19):
I know we got a couple of those savings bonds still left.

Adam Lyons (00:02:21):
Can you send me $100 savings bond for a book?

Adam Lyons (00:02:25):
And they're like, I thought you got all your books of the year.

Adam Lyons (00:02:26):
And so I'm 18 years old and I'm already lying.

Adam Lyons (00:02:28):
I'm already coming up with these elaborate lies.

Adam Lyons (00:02:31):
And they sent me the money and I used it to gamble.

Adam Lyons (00:02:32):
And that was just the tip of the iceberg.

Adam Lyons (00:02:34):
So I've worked in the restaurant industry for the last 20 years besides about four

Adam Lyons (00:02:38):
or five years where I worked in casinos.

Adam Lyons (00:02:40):
And I guess I can say it.

Adam Lyons (00:02:41):
I worked for MGM Resorts for four years.

Adam Lyons (00:02:43):
When I worked at Foxwoods Casino in Connecticut,

Adam Lyons (00:02:46):
That's where I was introduced to table games.

Adam Lyons (00:02:49):
That's where I was introduced to cash advances on a credit card.

Adam Lyons (00:02:52):
This is pre-recession, like 2005, 2006.

Adam Lyons (00:02:55):
I'm a 21-year-old kid, 22-year-old kid.

Adam Lyons (00:02:57):
I'm applying for a credit card, getting a $5,000 limit like nothing.

Adam Lyons (00:03:00):
So I did that three times.

Adam Lyons (00:03:02):
And over the course of a couple of years, I maxed them all out, all from gambling.

Adam Lyons (00:03:05):
And I wasn't gambling at Foxwoods.

Adam Lyons (00:03:07):
What I would do is I would drive.

Adam Lyons (00:03:09):
I was still living in Massachusetts.

Adam Lyons (00:03:10):
I was driving 75 miles one way.

Adam Lyons (00:03:13):
To go to work as a poker dealer,

Adam Lyons (00:03:15):
I would then sign what's called the EO list,

Adam Lyons (00:03:18):
where if they're not busy,

Adam Lyons (00:03:20):
you can sign yourself out,

Adam Lyons (00:03:21):
basically.

Adam Lyons (00:03:22):
No penalty, no nothing, but you don't work, obviously.

Adam Lyons (00:03:24):
So I would drive 75 miles, sign the EO.

Adam Lyons (00:03:26):
They would let me out in a half hour,

Adam Lyons (00:03:29):
and then I would drive 10 minutes down the road to Mohegan Sun and blow everything

Adam Lyons (00:03:33):
I could get my hands on.

Adam Lyons (00:03:34):
So this led to me declaring bankruptcy.

Adam Lyons (00:03:37):
I was 28 when I declared bankruptcy.

Adam Lyons (00:03:40):
That was the first of my many rock bottoms.

Adam Lyons (00:03:42):
For a few months after that, I stopped.

Adam Lyons (00:03:43):
I was embarrassed.

Adam Lyons (00:03:45):
I was broke.

Adam Lyons (00:03:46):
I was ashamed.

Adam Lyons (00:03:48):
And then,

Adam Lyons (00:03:49):
as you guys know,

Adam Lyons (00:03:49):
with addiction,

Adam Lyons (00:03:50):
the disease,

Adam Lyons (00:03:51):
after a few weeks,

Adam Lyons (00:03:52):
I get a couple of paychecks.

Adam Lyons (00:03:53):
that shame starts wearing off.

Adam Lyons (00:03:55):
And then I dabble with some Kino in a bar, do a couple of scratch tickets.

Adam Lyons (00:03:59):
And the next thing you know, I'm back at it again, full fledged.

Adam Lyons (00:04:02):
But now I need to escape, right?

Adam Lyons (00:04:04):
Now I don't want my family to see this.

Adam Lyons (00:04:07):
So I'm like, I just need a change of scenery.

Adam Lyons (00:04:09):
Right around when I turned 30, around 2010, 2011, I spent the next 10 years

Adam Lyons (00:04:16):
Living in five different cities,

Adam Lyons (00:04:18):
having 12 different addresses,

Adam Lyons (00:04:19):
always thinking,

Adam Lyons (00:04:20):
I just need to change the scenery.

Adam Lyons (00:04:22):
It's the next thing.

Adam Lyons (00:04:23):
I lived in New York.

Adam Lyons (00:04:24):
I lived back in Boston.

Adam Lyons (00:04:25):
Went out to Vegas, worked for MGM, D.C., Austin, Texas.

Adam Lyons (00:04:29):
This whirlwind of chaos for 10 years,

Adam Lyons (00:04:32):
the second half of my gambling,

Adam Lyons (00:04:34):
borrowing from people,

Adam Lyons (00:04:35):
committing illegal acts to fund my gambling.

Adam Lyons (00:04:37):
Now, I always paid my bills and I always had a job.

Adam Lyons (00:04:41):
Every spare dollar I had went to gambling.

Adam Lyons (00:04:44):
And then once I didn't make enough, I just started borrowing.

Adam Lyons (00:04:48):
It wasn't until January 30th, 2022.

Adam Lyons (00:04:52):
I moved to Austin, Texas because...

Adam Lyons (00:04:56):
At this point, I knew I had a problem, but I wasn't ready to stop.

Adam Lyons (00:04:58):
I said, you know what?

Adam Lyons (00:04:59):
Let me move to a place that there's not a casino within five hours.

Adam Lyons (00:05:03):
I'm going to go.

Adam Lyons (00:05:03):
I'm going to work in this poker room.

Adam Lyons (00:05:05):
I know the kid who's running it.

Adam Lyons (00:05:07):
I know a few people.

Adam Lyons (00:05:08):
For six months, I did that.

Adam Lyons (00:05:09):
The plan was I was going to save money.

Adam Lyons (00:05:11):
I was going to send the money to my father back up in Rhode Island.

Adam Lyons (00:05:15):
Once I hit X amount, I'm coming home, starting my life over.

Adam Lyons (00:05:19):
until the nfc championship game in 2022 when i placed a large bet on the game lost

Adam Lyons (00:05:28):
in a half drunken gambler addict mindset i did what i never thought i would do i

Adam Lyons (00:05:35):
drove five hours by myself in the middle of the night to a casino in oklahoma

Adam Lyons (00:05:40):
And I spent the next 36 hours gambling every dollar I had.

Adam Lyons (00:05:44):
I was borrowing from people.

Adam Lyons (00:05:46):
I was doing tricks with PayPal and Venmo and bouncing virtual checks.

Adam Lyons (00:05:51):
When the dust settled, I was sitting in a parking lot at five in the morning.

Adam Lyons (00:05:55):
The next day in the middle of Oklahoma, I had this feeling wash over me.

Adam Lyons (00:05:59):
I can't describe it.

Adam Lyons (00:06:01):
Through recovery, I think it's a spiritual awakening.

Adam Lyons (00:06:03):
I think it's God.

Adam Lyons (00:06:04):
I don't know what it was, but bottom line was I was sitting there looking around at like

Adam Lyons (00:06:10):
Where am I?

Adam Lyons (00:06:11):
I finally said I'm ready.

Adam Lyons (00:06:13):
Six days later, I found a 12-step meeting in Austin.

Adam Lyons (00:06:17):
It saved my life.

Adam Lyons (00:06:18):
I've never looked back.

Adam Lyons (00:06:19):
And my last bet was February 8th, 2022.

Adam Lyons (00:06:22):
Wow.

Rachel Casey (00:06:22):
That's amazing.

Adam Lyons (00:06:24):
That's like 10% of my story.

Colin Casey (00:06:25):
Yeah.

Colin Casey (00:06:26):
Rachel said this really dove too deep into the gambling addiction.

Colin Casey (00:06:32):
And it's heavy.

Rachel Casey (00:06:33):
I found a meme and gambling is one of those that feels it's so easy to substitute

Rachel Casey (00:06:40):
because we got sober from alcohol in 21.

Rachel Casey (00:06:43):
Right.

Rachel Casey (00:06:43):
And we're like, OK, we can't drink.

Rachel Casey (00:06:45):
Obviously, we're not doing drugs, can't do edibles, no longer smoking marijuana.

Rachel Casey (00:06:49):
We have been clean and sober.

Rachel Casey (00:06:51):
And gambling is one of those that just is so is a quick fix.

Rachel Casey (00:06:55):
It is the only thing.

Rachel Casey (00:06:57):
addiction based disorder in the dsm-5 that is not an ingestible substance that is

Rachel Casey (00:07:05):
listed under gambling use disorder and it's because your brain makes its own

Rachel Casey (00:07:12):
chemical it makes your own dopamine that it's the same as what alcohol produces

Rachel Casey (00:07:17):
only gambling can do it 100 crazy two things number one

Adam Lyons (00:07:22):
Of all the addictions,

Adam Lyons (00:07:24):
it says gambling is not going to kill you,

Adam Lyons (00:07:26):
but it's the one that makes you want to take your own life,

Adam Lyons (00:07:30):
right?

Adam Lyons (00:07:31):
And I cannot tell you how many people I've met in these 12-step rooms where their

Adam Lyons (00:07:36):
story is,

Adam Lyons (00:07:37):
I'm in another fellowship for 20 years and I'm 30 days clean from gambling.

Adam Lyons (00:07:41):
So many people, they call it living dirty, a lot of these people.

Adam Lyons (00:07:43):
They get clean from drugs and alcohol and then they start going to the casino and

Adam Lyons (00:07:47):
scratching tickets.

Adam Lyons (00:07:47):
Next thing you know, they realize that they have a problem and now they have to get help.

Rachel Casey (00:07:52):
I think what I was going to say, my mom is sober too.

Rachel Casey (00:07:55):
And we've talked about Vegas and gambling.

Rachel Casey (00:07:57):
I can see how it can intertwine.

Rachel Casey (00:07:58):
In early recovery, I actually did say I could tell that gambling was starting to substitute.

Rachel Casey (00:08:02):
And I'm like, I can't do this.

Rachel Casey (00:08:05):
I had to have more time because if you go immediately after you're doing alcohol

Rachel Casey (00:08:08):
and drugs,

Rachel Casey (00:08:09):
it produces the exact same effects,

Adam Lyons (00:08:11):
right?

Rachel Casey (00:08:11):
I don't think people are as aware about that,

Rachel Casey (00:08:13):
but there's a meme that goes around that's like,

Rachel Casey (00:08:16):
all the money I saved on drinking,

Rachel Casey (00:08:17):
I now spend on gambling.

Rachel Casey (00:08:19):
And it's like, that's just substituting one addiction for another.

Rachel Casey (00:08:22):
Living dirty, I suppose, I've never heard that either.

Rachel Casey (00:08:25):
I think as people who are sober, both from drugs and alcohol,

Rachel Casey (00:08:30):
It's such an awareness to bring like a compulsive act that there's another level of

Rachel Casey (00:08:36):
sobriety to hit.

Rachel Casey (00:08:37):
But my question for you is,

Rachel Casey (00:08:39):
did you realize the sobriety piece of the drugs and alcohol or the gambling or it

Rachel Casey (00:08:44):
was all together?

Adam Lyons (00:08:46):
So I still occasionally drink my entire life.

Adam Lyons (00:08:49):
Like during COVID, everyone's making videos and saying how they're getting drunk every night.

Adam Lyons (00:08:55):
I think I went March, April, May, June of 2020 without having a drop of alcohol.

Adam Lyons (00:09:01):
It's so weird because I have this insane disease with gambling and

Adam Lyons (00:09:07):
Yet, I have never had an issue with drugs and alcohol.

Adam Lyons (00:09:11):
When I hear people say they should abolish gambling and it's crazy what they're doing.

Adam Lyons (00:09:14):
Yes,

Adam Lyons (00:09:14):
it's crazy right now,

Adam Lyons (00:09:15):
like what the DraftKings and the FanDuls and all these people are booming to the

Adam Lyons (00:09:18):
young people.

Adam Lyons (00:09:19):
But if you can go gamble...

Adam Lyons (00:09:22):
responsibly and use it as a night out or if you're budgeting and doing it like the

Adam Lyons (00:09:27):
way I will go out and have a glass of wine at dinner or two beers after work like

Adam Lyons (00:09:33):
there's all different forms of recovery in my opinion and there's all different

Adam Lyons (00:09:36):
forms of sobriety it's just about for me it's about being honest with myself and 10

Adam Lyons (00:09:42):
years before I entered that room February 2022 I knew I had a problem gambling I

Adam Lyons (00:09:48):
never got to that point with drugs or alcohol but

Adam Lyons (00:09:52):
With the gambling,

Adam Lyons (00:09:53):
the way I look at it is the disease is always just hammering me with

Adam Lyons (00:09:57):
justifications,

Adam Lyons (00:09:58):
no matter what.

Adam Lyons (00:09:59):
I could be scrounging up chains to go to Walmart to buy frozen food because I'm

Adam Lyons (00:10:04):
broke for the next four days.

Adam Lyons (00:10:06):
And my disease will say, we just got unlucky.

Adam Lyons (00:10:08):
Like, don't worry about it.

Adam Lyons (00:10:09):
You should have saved that extra 10 bucks, but it's fine.

Adam Lyons (00:10:12):
The insanity of that, right?

Colin Casey (00:10:14):
Wasn't there something, you might have said this before,

Colin Casey (00:10:17):
that you almost get not addicted to the winning, but you get addicted to the losing.

Rachel Casey (00:10:22):
That's the difference with gambling addiction.

Rachel Casey (00:10:25):
The best example I heard,

Rachel Casey (00:10:26):
and this is not from someone who is recovering from gambling,

Rachel Casey (00:10:30):
studying addiction in school.

Rachel Casey (00:10:32):
It might not be as accurate.

Rachel Casey (00:10:33):
If it were coming from a gambler, I would probably be more willing to.

Rachel Casey (00:10:36):
This is probably true, but in roulette,

Rachel Casey (00:10:39):
you're doing red or black and it hits black that first time you're almost happy

Rachel Casey (00:10:42):
because that means you can double down and then hopefully it's red the next time

Rachel Casey (00:10:47):
but eventually it fizzes because you can't keep like unless you have infinite money

Rachel Casey (00:10:52):
but at that point there's a small in the beginning I think

Rachel Casey (00:10:57):
happiness that comes when there is a loss because there's a potential for a bigger

Rachel Casey (00:11:02):
gain but it's very subconscious and that comes much later in the stages of gambling

Rachel Casey (00:11:07):
that is not in the beginning i think that's a learned thing from when you have the

Rachel Casey (00:11:11):
experience of you've lost like three rounds and then you double down on that fourth

Rachel Casey (00:11:15):
one and then you win and then from there on out you're kind of hoping it doesn't

Rachel Casey (00:11:20):
hit so you can double a bit more it's very weird

Adam Lyons (00:11:24):
I have so many things.

Adam Lyons (00:11:25):
I don't even know where to start with that because you're right.

Adam Lyons (00:11:26):
Like that's all true.

Adam Lyons (00:11:28):
First thing I thought of as you're talking is the first time I went into that GA

Adam Lyons (00:11:33):
and I read the literature,

Adam Lyons (00:11:35):
I thought I was being punked.

Adam Lyons (00:11:37):
Someone's been following me around for the last 20 years and they are writing down

Adam Lyons (00:11:40):
exactly how I think.

Adam Lyons (00:11:42):
The dream world of gambling.

Adam Lyons (00:11:43):
To your point,

Adam Lyons (00:11:44):
there's a line in the literature that was written 60,

Adam Lyons (00:11:47):
70 years ago that says there is evidence that

Adam Lyons (00:11:51):
that a compulsive gambler subconsciously wants to lose.

Adam Lyons (00:11:55):
They want the pain because they just wanna feel something.

Adam Lyons (00:12:00):
The last five years of my gambling,

Adam Lyons (00:12:03):
especially the last two,

Adam Lyons (00:12:05):
if you watched me hit a jackpot at a casino,

Adam Lyons (00:12:08):
which I did often,

Adam Lyons (00:12:10):
when the cashier comes over and they're counting out the hundreds,

Adam Lyons (00:12:13):
this is my face.

Adam Lyons (00:12:14):
And if you're listening on an audio, it's stone face.

Adam Lyons (00:12:16):
Like I'm not, I don't feel anything.

Adam Lyons (00:12:18):
Notionless space.

Adam Lyons (00:12:19):
And it's because at that point, right in year 20 of my gambling,

Adam Lyons (00:12:25):
I'm down so much money that I would have to hit the lottery in order to be even.

Adam Lyons (00:12:31):
Early on in your gambling, you think like, okay, I had a bad year sports betting NFL.

Adam Lyons (00:12:38):
I lost $5,000 last year, so I need to win that back.

Adam Lyons (00:12:41):
But once you get to the level that I was at, you lose count.

Adam Lyons (00:12:45):
You have no idea.

Adam Lyons (00:12:46):
So subconsciously, even when I was winning,

Adam Lyons (00:12:50):
I was still down so much.

Adam Lyons (00:12:53):
And,

Adam Lyons (00:12:53):
you know,

Adam Lyons (00:12:54):
for me,

Adam Lyons (00:12:55):
it's interesting,

Adam Lyons (00:12:55):
like now with all these YouTubers and all these guys that are making these

Adam Lyons (00:12:59):
ridiculous bets and playing these ridiculous slots,

Adam Lyons (00:13:02):
high limit slots,

Adam Lyons (00:13:03):
I was the opposite.

Adam Lyons (00:13:04):
I wanted to lose by a thousand small bets.

Adam Lyons (00:13:08):
I wanted to sit at that Kino slot machine for hours.

Adam Lyons (00:13:12):
And I was too afraid to wager it all.

Adam Lyons (00:13:15):
I was the guy who wanted to bet a dollar for the thousand to one shot.

Adam Lyons (00:13:18):
And I'll do that a thousand times rather than putting up a thousand bucks for even money.

Adam Lyons (00:13:22):
If that makes sense.

Colin Casey (00:13:24):
Death by a thousand paper cuts.

Colin Casey (00:13:25):
Yes.

Colin Casey (00:13:26):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:13:27):
Which in similar fashion to alcohol,

Rachel Casey (00:13:29):
I think it gets to that same point where they,

Rachel Casey (00:13:32):
at least for me,

Rachel Casey (00:13:34):
there was definitely a point where I was drinking so much that it was like,

Rachel Casey (00:13:39):
I kind of hoped the blackout would take me out.

Rachel Casey (00:13:41):
It's,

Rachel Casey (00:13:42):
very subconscious i wouldn't say just like you probably wouldn't say like you drove

Rachel Casey (00:13:47):
to the casino to be disappointed in your mind it's like that's what's going to make

Rachel Casey (00:13:51):
you happy but then you get there and it's like or the amount of alcohol i ingest in

Rachel Casey (00:13:56):
my body it's just not it's never enough it never got that feeling away and it

Rachel Casey (00:14:02):
didn't matter whether i tried to slow my pace or be fast or i hated that i was

Rachel Casey (00:14:08):
drinking but i had to do it yeah it was the only way i knew how to survive

Adam Lyons (00:14:12):
Absolutely.

Adam Lyons (00:14:12):
And that's something I've had on The Modern Meeting, like people with alcohol addiction.

Adam Lyons (00:14:16):
And they talk about walking into the package store and they're like,

Adam Lyons (00:14:20):
I don't even want to be here.

Adam Lyons (00:14:22):
That was me taking the exit to the casino.

Adam Lyons (00:14:24):
I didn't want to do it, but I couldn't not do it.

Adam Lyons (00:14:27):
The vicious cycle for me was...

Adam Lyons (00:14:30):
From year one to year 20,

Adam Lyons (00:14:32):
the rides of the casino or the walk into the casino was always,

Adam Lyons (00:14:38):
this is the night.

Adam Lyons (00:14:40):
This is the night I'm going to hit.

Adam Lyons (00:14:41):
This is the night that I'm going to do X,

Adam Lyons (00:14:44):
Y,

Adam Lyons (00:14:44):
and Z.

Adam Lyons (00:14:45):
And I know I can't get to even,

Adam Lyons (00:14:46):
but I'm going to put a big dent.

Adam Lyons (00:14:48):
My last few years,

Adam Lyons (00:14:49):
I was walking around on my cell phone with a list of people that I owed money to.

Adam Lyons (00:14:52):
I'm going to clear that list, right?

Adam Lyons (00:14:53):
And then you get in.

Adam Lyons (00:14:55):
And you most likely, even if you win, you're going to give it back by the end of the night.

Adam Lyons (00:15:00):
And if you lose right away, now you sing.

Adam Lyons (00:15:03):
And now you enter.

Adam Lyons (00:15:04):
Can I swear on this?

Colin Casey (00:15:05):
Oh, yeah.

Adam Lyons (00:15:06):
Now you enter the fuck it phase, right?

Adam Lyons (00:15:07):
It's just like, fuck it.

Adam Lyons (00:15:08):
I want every dollar I can get my hands on.

Adam Lyons (00:15:11):
And then that's when the numb sets in.

Adam Lyons (00:15:13):
And now you're just a loser.

Adam Lyons (00:15:15):
You can't believe you did it again.

Adam Lyons (00:15:16):
And then you get out to the car in the parking lot when you have exhausted all

Adam Lyons (00:15:20):
resources and you promise yourself you're done.

Adam Lyons (00:15:23):
You say, I want to bottle this feeling up, this feeling I have right now.

Adam Lyons (00:15:26):
I don't want to do this.

Adam Lyons (00:15:28):
Please.

Adam Lyons (00:15:29):
I used to beg to God like in the worst ways,

Adam Lyons (00:15:31):
like instead of what I do now,

Adam Lyons (00:15:32):
ask him for guidance.

Adam Lyons (00:15:33):
And I used to be like, God, please let me wake up and just not want to gamble anymore.

Adam Lyons (00:15:37):
That's not how it works, right?

Adam Lyons (00:15:38):
That's not how it works, idiot.

Adam Lyons (00:15:39):
And I would wake up after crying myself to sleep with the itch and the justifications.

Adam Lyons (00:15:46):
Hey, listen, wipe them tears.

Adam Lyons (00:15:48):
This is the disease talking.

Adam Lyons (00:15:49):
Wipe them tears.

Adam Lyons (00:15:50):
Hey, we'll get it back.

Adam Lyons (00:15:52):
You're getting a paycheck in three days.

Adam Lyons (00:15:53):
Yeah.

Adam Lyons (00:15:54):
Worst case scenario.

Adam Lyons (00:15:55):
Worst case scenario.

Adam Lyons (00:15:56):
Let's do a little overdraft on your bank of America.

Adam Lyons (00:15:58):
Right.

Adam Lyons (00:15:59):
And then.

Adam Lyons (00:16:00):
Yeah.

Adam Lyons (00:16:01):
Whatever you got to do.

Colin Casey (00:16:02):
So not to prey on addicts,

Colin Casey (00:16:05):
but would you say the pawn shops around a casino are probably the best places to

Colin Casey (00:16:10):
find stuff?

Adam Lyons (00:16:11):
Oh my God.

Colin Casey (00:16:12):
Like you said,

Colin Casey (00:16:13):
you get to that fuck it stage and you're willing to probably pawn anything to get

Colin Casey (00:16:18):
some cash to go back in there to try to win big so you can pay whoever back.

Adam Lyons (00:16:24):
So glad that you asked this.

Adam Lyons (00:16:25):
So it's 2017, 2018.

Adam Lyons (00:16:26):
It's my first of two stints living in Vegas.

Adam Lyons (00:16:30):
I have this beautiful laptop that I had bought three months prior.

Adam Lyons (00:16:37):
A $2,200 laptop.

Adam Lyons (00:16:38):
I'm just sitting in my apartment, broke, looking around the room.

Adam Lyons (00:16:42):
Pawn Stars was on.

Adam Lyons (00:16:45):
Not on in that moment, but I knew that pawn shops were all over the place.

Adam Lyons (00:16:48):
And I'm looking around the room and I don't have any possessions.

Adam Lyons (00:16:51):
I have a shitty couch, a plastic table I got from Walmart.

Adam Lyons (00:16:54):
And on that table, I see that computer.

Adam Lyons (00:16:56):
So what can I get for that?

Adam Lyons (00:16:58):
I'm not going to sell it.

Adam Lyons (00:16:59):
I just want to pawn it.

Adam Lyons (00:17:00):
Exactly.

Adam Lyons (00:17:00):
And then I'll get it back.

Adam Lyons (00:17:01):
So for the next two weeks, the effort that I would put in

Adam Lyons (00:17:07):
to fuel and fund my gambling,

Adam Lyons (00:17:09):
if I applied that to my life,

Adam Lyons (00:17:11):
I think I'd be an astronaut or president of the United States.

Adam Lyons (00:17:14):
I went to 20 different pawn shops.

Adam Lyons (00:17:16):
I'm looking for the best price.

Adam Lyons (00:17:18):
I'm negotiating with them.

Adam Lyons (00:17:19):
I finally found a place.

Adam Lyons (00:17:22):
This $2,200 laptop, the highest I got offered was $1,200.

Adam Lyons (00:17:27):
I gave it to over 1,200 and I said, but I'm coming back to get it.

Adam Lyons (00:17:30):
And this is me trying to fight the disease,

Adam Lyons (00:17:33):
but I'm talking to a 22 year old kid who's giving me the money.

Adam Lyons (00:17:36):
I said, how long do I have to get it back?

Adam Lyons (00:17:38):
He goes, 90 days.

Adam Lyons (00:17:39):
Then we wiped the hard drive.

Adam Lyons (00:17:40):
I said, okay, I got 90 days.

Adam Lyons (00:17:41):
Awesome.

Adam Lyons (00:17:42):
I take that $1,200 after two weeks trying to find,

Adam Lyons (00:17:46):
I walk into the nearest casino,

Adam Lyons (00:17:48):
which was South Point Casino in Vegas.

Adam Lyons (00:17:50):
I lost that $1,200 in five minutes on the craps table.

Adam Lyons (00:17:53):
five minutes gone.

Adam Lyons (00:17:55):
And then,

Adam Lyons (00:17:56):
so now,

Adam Lyons (00:17:58):
cause at this point I had committed to moving back East to open MGM Springfield as

Adam Lyons (00:18:03):
a manager in the poker room.

Adam Lyons (00:18:05):
I knew I was leaving in two months.

Adam Lyons (00:18:08):
I said to myself, all right,

Adam Lyons (00:18:10):
The minute you get $1,200, you've got to go get that laptop back.

Adam Lyons (00:18:13):
In those two months, at least 10 different times, I had the money.

Adam Lyons (00:18:18):
I said, okay, I'm going to go tomorrow.

Adam Lyons (00:18:20):
And then I go to the casino.

Adam Lyons (00:18:22):
All right, I'm leaving in a week.

Adam Lyons (00:18:23):
I need this $1,200.

Adam Lyons (00:18:24):
But now I need the money to drive back east.

Adam Lyons (00:18:27):
My car's out there.

Adam Lyons (00:18:28):
You know what?

Adam Lyons (00:18:29):
I'll buy a new laptop.

Adam Lyons (00:18:30):
And I never get the laptop back.

Colin Casey (00:18:32):
When we went to Oklahoma, I mean, just riddled with pawn shops.

Colin Casey (00:18:37):
And I feel like that's how they get you.

Colin Casey (00:18:38):
Like, Vegas has gotten more family-friendly.

Colin Casey (00:18:41):
Like, Choctaw, where we just went to, it's more family.

Colin Casey (00:18:45):
They have a great outdoor pool with slide for the kids,

Colin Casey (00:18:48):
arcade,

Colin Casey (00:18:49):
which her son called kid gambling.

Colin Casey (00:18:50):
That was funny.

Rachel Casey (00:18:52):
It really is, though.

Rachel Casey (00:18:53):
Like,

Rachel Casey (00:18:53):
if you're going to try and convince me that Chuck E.

Rachel Casey (00:18:55):
Cheese is not just kids gambling,

Rachel Casey (00:18:56):
you're not going to be able to convince me.

Adam Lyons (00:18:58):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:18:59):
get tokens get prizes and i mean that hit me really normalized i took my nephew to

Adam Lyons (00:19:04):
the arcade once in a while in newport and i will say that there's been a few times

Adam Lyons (00:19:08):
where i'm playing skeeball with him and yeah like you get those things in your

Adam Lyons (00:19:11):
brain like okay yeah this is yeah no for sure yeah the lights and the sounds i mean

Colin Casey (00:19:16):
they know what they're doing to draw you in yeah the check cashing places the pawn

Rachel Casey (00:19:20):
shops price with free hotels and they'll pay for all the other things colin will

Rachel Casey (00:19:24):
joke he's like

Rachel Casey (00:19:26):
Yeah, the hotel's not free.

Rachel Casey (00:19:28):
You gamble your $300, $400, whatever, and that's what pays for our hotels.

Rachel Casey (00:19:33):
But they try to prey on the people who most likely have a problem.

Rachel Casey (00:19:39):
I mean, that's who they give the most rewards and make it seem so fun.

Adam Lyons (00:19:43):
Rachel, I was just as addicted to all of that as I was the actual gambling.

Adam Lyons (00:19:47):
I was a diamond member with Caesars.

Adam Lyons (00:19:49):
I didn't pay for a room for five years.

Adam Lyons (00:19:51):
Living in New York, I'm going to Atlantic City.

Adam Lyons (00:19:53):
I'm staying in a...

Adam Lyons (00:19:55):
2000 square foot suite, maybe even bigger, but a huge suite by myself.

Adam Lyons (00:20:00):
Miserable.

Adam Lyons (00:20:01):
I go down for three nights.

Adam Lyons (00:20:02):
I'm broke by night one and I'm just sitting there in the room for two nights.

Adam Lyons (00:20:06):
I have a casino host calling me and offering me free play.

Adam Lyons (00:20:10):
I was losing tens of thousands of dollars and I was on the low end.

Adam Lyons (00:20:13):
Some of these people that are spending that much more, I mean, they're getting flown out.

Adam Lyons (00:20:17):
They're getting everything.

Adam Lyons (00:20:18):
But yeah, like walking in.

Adam Lyons (00:20:20):
Oh, Mr. Lyons right this way.

Adam Lyons (00:20:21):
I'm not going to wait in line with the rest of the peasants.

Adam Lyons (00:20:23):
I'm going to go with a diamond check and check in right away.

Rachel Casey (00:20:26):
I feel so wrong that I get like all these diamond rewards,

Rachel Casey (00:20:30):
but complained when I was drunk,

Rachel Casey (00:20:32):
got mad,

Rachel Casey (00:20:32):
talked to a supervisor and they upgraded me.

Rachel Casey (00:20:35):
ever since i've accepted but i didn't spend that much money and so they'll send me

Rachel Casey (00:20:39):
four free nights and give me like 50 in gambling which i'm sure it's really not

Rachel Casey (00:20:44):
that much yeah the thing with mgm is if you can go up to one status more they'll

Rachel Casey (00:20:51):
let you keep doing it so what we do is we just buy in the blackjack have them

Rachel Casey (00:20:56):
register it and then we check out

Adam Lyons (00:20:57):
Trust me, there's definitely ways around it.

Adam Lyons (00:20:59):
They have credit cards you can sign up for and you get all the rewards.

Rachel Casey (00:21:01):
But no, he's such an imposter.

Adam Lyons (00:21:03):
My friends and family would always tell me, oh, cool, you had a free room.

Adam Lyons (00:21:06):
Oh, how much did you lose gambling?

Adam Lyons (00:21:07):
Oh, okay, so that was a $3,000 room, actually.

Rachel Casey (00:21:10):
You paid for it.

Rachel Casey (00:21:11):
It wasn't a free room.

Rachel Casey (00:21:12):
There was a time where I was drunk gambling where Colin was trying to get me off

Rachel Casey (00:21:16):
the table because when I would black out,

Rachel Casey (00:21:18):
I would go hard.

Rachel Casey (00:21:20):
And I don't remember doing bets and stuff.

Colin Casey (00:21:22):
Well, the scary thing for me was you were winning.

Colin Casey (00:21:24):
And I was like, all right, she's almost blackout drunk and winning.

Colin Casey (00:21:29):
And I can see the manager of the table or the pit boss just going,

Colin Casey (00:21:34):
feed her,

Colin Casey (00:21:35):
give her more drinks.

Colin Casey (00:21:36):
And I'm thinking, I got to get her off the table more than I've ever seen.

Rachel Casey (00:21:41):
And they're feeding me.

Rachel Casey (00:21:42):
I'm blackout.

Rachel Casey (00:21:44):
Like, I'm blackout drunk.

Adam Lyons (00:21:45):
Yeah, and obviously they want you to lose, but all they want you to do is play.

Adam Lyons (00:21:49):
Because if you play, you're going to lose, right?

Adam Lyons (00:21:51):
You're just going to keep playing.

Adam Lyons (00:21:53):
For all the years that I gambled, I think I was drunk while gambling maybe once or twice.

Adam Lyons (00:22:00):
That 36 hours I was in Oklahoma, not one drop of alcohol.

Adam Lyons (00:22:03):
I went out to Vegas to audition for that job I got in 2017.

Adam Lyons (00:22:08):
I was there for two days, not one drop of alcohol.

Adam Lyons (00:22:10):
I never drank when I gambled.

Adam Lyons (00:22:12):
It was so weird.

Adam Lyons (00:22:12):
I can only imagine how much worse it would have been if I did.

Rachel Casey (00:22:15):
I think the way that you describe your gambling,

Rachel Casey (00:22:18):
like you can separate that you understand when you drink,

Rachel Casey (00:22:22):
it doesn't have that same feeling.

Rachel Casey (00:22:26):
There are a lot of times that like you can cross contaminate.

Rachel Casey (00:22:29):
Like, I don't know how when you stopped gambling, but you probably didn't.

Rachel Casey (00:22:32):
Like if you would have started drinking right after, maybe it could have had a sub addiction.

Rachel Casey (00:22:37):
The way that you describe gambling,

Rachel Casey (00:22:39):
I don't necessarily feel like that when I'm going,

Rachel Casey (00:22:41):
but I feel exactly that way with alcohol.

Rachel Casey (00:22:44):
like tea that I'm like I would go to the ends of the earth to make drinking okay

Rachel Casey (00:22:50):
into blackout and I relate immensely with that but it's crazy that you don't feel

Adam Lyons (00:22:55):
that way about alcohol to me that I'm like I think why I'm in a unique spot where

Adam Lyons (00:23:00):
I'm able to talk to all these different addicts and we all share this common thread

Adam Lyons (00:23:05):
when they tell me how they feel about gambling they can do it I'm like yeah that's

Adam Lyons (00:23:08):
how I feel about alcohol and now on the flip side of that recently what I've

Adam Lyons (00:23:12):
learned is that

Adam Lyons (00:23:14):
There are studies that people who are addicted to eating or overeaters,

Adam Lyons (00:23:19):
that they have the most similar feelings as gamblers.

Adam Lyons (00:23:24):
It's that instant gratification.

Adam Lyons (00:23:27):
It's the not wanting to do it when you're doing it and then having that insane

Adam Lyons (00:23:32):
guilt after the fact.

Adam Lyons (00:23:33):
It's something that I need to control.

Adam Lyons (00:23:35):
It's probably my eating.

Adam Lyons (00:23:36):
So that makes sense to me.

Adam Lyons (00:23:38):
Because that's the thing with drinking.

Adam Lyons (00:23:39):
Whenever I drink, once I hit like...

Adam Lyons (00:23:43):
three or four drinks, I just feel full and I feel gross.

Adam Lyons (00:23:45):
It's honestly a physical thing for me.

Adam Lyons (00:23:47):
I know other people who can just drink all day, like at a cookout and they're fine.

Adam Lyons (00:23:50):
I've never been able to do that, but gambling.

Rachel Casey (00:23:53):
And drinking up,

Rachel Casey (00:23:53):
that feeling of feeling ashamed goes away and you don't feel anything because you

Rachel Casey (00:23:57):
black out.

Rachel Casey (00:23:58):
And so that's where I also have eating disorder,

Rachel Casey (00:24:01):
which my psychiatrist at the time had said that binge drinking can intertwine with

Rachel Casey (00:24:08):
the binge eating because you don't have a stopping point.

Rachel Casey (00:24:10):
It is an indulgence of never enough.

Rachel Casey (00:24:14):
There was never a time with alcohol where I was like,

Rachel Casey (00:24:17):
I feel full.

Rachel Casey (00:24:18):
And then you talk about mixing those together.

Rachel Casey (00:24:20):
With Gamley, we've usually been pretty good.

Rachel Casey (00:24:23):
Our story of the first time we went,

Rachel Casey (00:24:25):
Gamley,

Rachel Casey (00:24:25):
we brought the envelopes,

Rachel Casey (00:24:26):
like,

Rachel Casey (00:24:26):
because you have,

Rachel Casey (00:24:27):
like,

Rachel Casey (00:24:27):
your per day,

Rachel Casey (00:24:28):
whatever.

Rachel Casey (00:24:28):
And his envelope said, not yours.

Rachel Casey (00:24:31):
And I was like, what the hell is this?

Rachel Casey (00:24:34):
He's like, it's not yours.

Rachel Casey (00:24:36):
And I'm like, we are newly dating, but...

Colin Casey (00:24:38):
again they're like i was like what's the envelope say this is not yours i go

Colin Casey (00:24:43):
exactly that's not yours i don't need to put my name on it but i will say that i've

Rachel Casey (00:24:49):
played poker and i'm so bad about sports betting too like i think we did for a

Rachel Casey (00:24:54):
super bowl one year and i didn't even understand the actual bet i don't have any

Rachel Casey (00:24:57):
desire to go i'm like whatever that's probably how you are with alcohol yeah you're

Rachel Casey (00:25:02):
like

(00:25:02):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:25:02):
Okay, I can't have another drink.

Rachel Casey (00:25:03):
That was my entire life.

Rachel Casey (00:25:05):
All I could think about was the next drink.

Rachel Casey (00:25:06):
With gambling, it's the next bet.

Rachel Casey (00:25:08):
So it's like it's the same.

Rachel Casey (00:25:11):
It's just a different substance.

Rachel Casey (00:25:12):
But the act itself, the feeling, what you're describing, interchangeable.

Colin Casey (00:25:17):
Absolutely.

Colin Casey (00:25:18):
So I have two different questions I want to ask you.

Colin Casey (00:25:21):
How you feel about a lot of the YouTube stars glorifying betting.

Colin Casey (00:25:25):
I think the one that I see commonly is Mickey Mays or something like that.

Colin Casey (00:25:30):
He's all tatted up.

Colin Casey (00:25:32):
Oh, yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes, I know that guy.

Colin Casey (00:25:34):
And he seems to be a lot of social media is just this person who's the only successful gambler.

Colin Casey (00:25:40):
Yeah.

Colin Casey (00:25:40):
That's just something you don't want to glorify as becoming a professional gambler

Colin Casey (00:25:45):
because you're not going to win.

Rachel Casey (00:25:47):
You tried to tell me something about there's a trick in your list.

Rachel Casey (00:25:49):
I was like, there's no trick.

Rachel Casey (00:25:50):
It'll eventually, if you have endless money, maybe, but then you're probably not gambling.

Adam Lyons (00:25:55):
But yeah, let me be clear.

Adam Lyons (00:25:57):
No such thing.

Adam Lyons (00:25:58):
If you play long enough, it's a mathematical certainty.

Adam Lyons (00:26:02):
Okay?

Adam Lyons (00:26:02):
Yeah.

Adam Lyons (00:26:03):
To Rachel's point,

Adam Lyons (00:26:04):
if you're Dana White and you have millions and millions and he has a certain level

Adam Lyons (00:26:09):
of discipline,

Adam Lyons (00:26:10):
you might be able to break even or have a short loss.

Adam Lyons (00:26:14):
You are not going to win over time.

Adam Lyons (00:26:15):
And all these YouTubers and all these guys,

Adam Lyons (00:26:17):
like the Vegas Mats and the Bretskis and the Bluffs,

Adam Lyons (00:26:20):
I've DMed all of them.

Adam Lyons (00:26:21):
I'm trying to have a conversation with them so we can show both sides.

Adam Lyons (00:26:25):
That's the worst to me because...

Adam Lyons (00:26:28):
These guys are either, I don't know if they're using their own money.

Adam Lyons (00:26:32):
I don't know if they're getting the money from their YouTube channel and they're

Adam Lyons (00:26:34):
putting it into it.

Adam Lyons (00:26:35):
I don't know if the casinos give them X amount of their losses back.

Adam Lyons (00:26:38):
But these guys were playing slot machines.

Adam Lyons (00:26:40):
You can't win.

Adam Lyons (00:26:41):
You won't win.

Adam Lyons (00:26:43):
But all they do is show their wins.

Adam Lyons (00:26:46):
They are getting inside the brains of all these young,

Adam Lyons (00:26:49):
naive people who might not even really be addicts.

Adam Lyons (00:26:53):
But they're getting those flips switched.

Rachel Casey (00:26:55):
Let me give you it this way of maybe a really good comparison of,

Rachel Casey (00:26:59):
and while the YouTubers,

Rachel Casey (00:27:00):
it might be like a longer stint.

Rachel Casey (00:27:02):
It's like the same as what I say with alcohol commercials.

Rachel Casey (00:27:06):
You get this like one minute glimpse of this glamorous party or how you see it in

Rachel Casey (00:27:11):
movies or on TV shows.

Rachel Casey (00:27:12):
They're having fun, getting drinks.

Rachel Casey (00:27:15):
They don't show the fast forward part of the losing,

Rachel Casey (00:27:19):
the hurt,

Rachel Casey (00:27:20):
the pain,

Rachel Casey (00:27:21):
the overdrafts,

Rachel Casey (00:27:22):
the driving hours and hours on end.

Rachel Casey (00:27:25):
They're showing one very little part because there is a very small five minute

Rachel Casey (00:27:29):
window of drinking that I'm not slurring.

Rachel Casey (00:27:33):
I'm probably at my mid.

Rachel Casey (00:27:35):
And that's where they're like filming the commercial, filming the YouTube.

Rachel Casey (00:27:38):
They're not showing that.

Rachel Casey (00:27:40):
The next 36 hours.

Adam Lyons (00:27:41):
You're so right because I worked in the restaurant industry forever and we have a

Adam Lyons (00:27:45):
saying,

Adam Lyons (00:27:45):
nothing good happens after midnight.

Adam Lyons (00:27:47):
Nothing good happens after midnight.

Adam Lyons (00:27:49):
And you're so right.

Adam Lyons (00:27:50):
Like, yeah, there's that.

Adam Lyons (00:27:51):
I'd say it's like an hour window in between drinks three and four where you have a buzz.

Adam Lyons (00:27:56):
Everyone's looser.

Adam Lyons (00:27:58):
Everyone's having a good time.

Adam Lyons (00:27:59):
The food's good.

Adam Lyons (00:28:00):
But once you hit that second bar,

Adam Lyons (00:28:02):
you start texting your ex or whatever it is that we do when we're drunk or

Adam Lyons (00:28:06):
whatever.

Adam Lyons (00:28:07):
If you do manage to have a decent night,

Adam Lyons (00:28:10):
you're going to wake up the next day feeling like shit.

Adam Lyons (00:28:12):
So, yeah, you're right.

Rachel Casey (00:28:13):
Or the next day you have a good night gambling and they're not showing the people

Rachel Casey (00:28:17):
that come home where they won on that slot machine,

Rachel Casey (00:28:19):
but then they go run over and they put it all on black and then they lost it and

Rachel Casey (00:28:23):
then they're taking out a loan.

Rachel Casey (00:28:24):
They're showing a very, very small, minimal part, just like when they show drinking in movies.

Rachel Casey (00:28:30):
They don't show me...

Rachel Casey (00:28:32):
passed out in a place i've not known they just show the fun part of the club and

Rachel Casey (00:28:36):
it's a very small light it's not a fair picture you're not really given the full

Rachel Casey (00:28:41):
story it's like reading a wrong pull quote you take a quote from an article and

Rachel Casey (00:28:47):
it's like that was completely out of context that is not what i meant at all think

Adam Lyons (00:28:51):
of it this way 10 years from now we obviously live life a day at a time but 10

Adam Lyons (00:28:55):
years from now

Adam Lyons (00:28:57):
God willing, we are still going to be talking about recovery.

Adam Lyons (00:29:00):
Other people are going to be talking about recovery to 12 steps.

Adam Lyons (00:29:03):
All these fucking YouTubers will not be here in 10 years.

Adam Lyons (00:29:07):
They won't be because they're either going to go broke.

Adam Lyons (00:29:09):
I don't care how much money you make from YouTube.

Adam Lyons (00:29:11):
Look at like Antoine Walker was a famous basketball player for the Celtics,

Adam Lyons (00:29:15):
like multimillionaire.

Adam Lyons (00:29:17):
He like is in debt to casinos.

Adam Lyons (00:29:19):
So there's no such thing as a winning gambler.

Rachel Casey (00:29:23):
That's why they have different rooms, too.

Rachel Casey (00:29:25):
Like you look at the high limits and it's just like with alcohol that one or two

Rachel Casey (00:29:32):
drinks will get you feeling tipsy.

Rachel Casey (00:29:33):
And then with an alcoholic, it's like doesn't do a debt.

Rachel Casey (00:29:36):
It's like your body builds this tolerance in the same sense.

Rachel Casey (00:29:39):
Oh, my God.

Adam Lyons (00:29:40):
My value of the dollar from when I first started going to casinos.

Adam Lyons (00:29:44):
And I maxed out those credit cards.

Adam Lyons (00:29:47):
A really bad night for me was losing 500 bucks.

Adam Lyons (00:29:49):
I would go with three.

Adam Lyons (00:29:51):
And if I had to go to the ATM and take out another two,

Adam Lyons (00:29:53):
at the end,

Adam Lyons (00:29:55):
I wasn't putting less than a thousand bucks on the craps table to start.

Adam Lyons (00:30:00):
I once went to Vegas for a six day trip with my family.

Adam Lyons (00:30:05):
I'd gone on a decent run winning sports betting.

Adam Lyons (00:30:09):
I went out there for six days with $14,000.

Adam Lyons (00:30:13):
It was gone by night three.

Adam Lyons (00:30:15):
You want to see someone who's depressed,

Adam Lyons (00:30:18):
have a compulsive gamble,

Adam Lyons (00:30:19):
be on vacation with his family in Vegas with no money.

Rachel Casey (00:30:21):
Oh my God.

Adam Lyons (00:30:22):
With three more days.

Adam Lyons (00:30:24):
Who doesn't like to drink?

Rachel Casey (00:30:25):
And see, the thing that we love about Vegas is I like that I've gotten the free rooms.

Rachel Casey (00:30:30):
We love it.

Rachel Casey (00:30:31):
You can go to a comedy club at any hour of the day.

Rachel Casey (00:30:35):
It's like the buffets, the food.

Adam Lyons (00:30:37):
I loved Vegas.

Adam Lyons (00:30:38):
I loved living there.

Adam Lyons (00:30:39):
I loved the weather.

Adam Lyons (00:30:40):
I loved the scenery.

Adam Lyons (00:30:42):
I loved everything about it.

Adam Lyons (00:30:44):
Unfortunately, obviously, they got slot machines in gas stations.

Adam Lyons (00:30:47):
They got slot machines in grocery stores.

Rachel Casey (00:30:49):
It's a lot.

Rachel Casey (00:30:50):
It's like the air they pump in there and make you awake.

Rachel Casey (00:30:53):
They add extra oxygen in those.

Colin Casey (00:30:55):
Yeah, I don't know if that's true, but it probably is.

Colin Casey (00:30:57):
It might be a placebo effect thing where it's like you just believe it enough to...

Colin Casey (00:31:01):
Because you do tend to just seem...

Colin Casey (00:31:04):
You can live on lack of sleep in Vegas for a day or two,

Colin Casey (00:31:08):
it seems like.

Rachel Casey (00:31:09):
Now, the thing that I will say, and I would like to know your take on this, is...

Rachel Casey (00:31:15):
I've said for a year or so now,

Rachel Casey (00:31:18):
I wish alcohol had the same warning label that gambling when you see the ads like

Rachel Casey (00:31:24):
there's help.

Rachel Casey (00:31:25):
But how often is that actually used?

Rachel Casey (00:31:27):
I mean, they talk about it and I see it on the ads.

Rachel Casey (00:31:30):
If you have a problem with alcohol, here's the thing for help.

Rachel Casey (00:31:32):
But now that I think about it,

Rachel Casey (00:31:35):
how many gamblers are actually using that as a helpline to know that they have a

Rachel Casey (00:31:39):
problem?

Adam Lyons (00:31:40):
So yeah, that's a great question.

Adam Lyons (00:31:42):
So for New England, if anyone calls 1-800-GAMBLER, I'm one of the people that answers.

Adam Lyons (00:31:47):
My phone goes off probably,

Adam Lyons (00:31:50):
if ebbs and flows,

Adam Lyons (00:31:51):
I'd say on average it probably goes off once a day.

Adam Lyons (00:31:54):
But lately, over the last three months, it's almost exclusively parents of kids.

Adam Lyons (00:32:01):
It's not even the kids calling.

Adam Lyons (00:32:03):
Part of the reason why I started the Modern Meeting is because

Adam Lyons (00:32:07):
I just don't think that the 1-800-GAMBLERS and the Problem Gambling Councils,

Adam Lyons (00:32:11):
they're all great,

Adam Lyons (00:32:11):
but it's not enough.

Adam Lyons (00:32:13):
It's just not enough.

Adam Lyons (00:32:14):
Of all the 12-step meetings,

Adam Lyons (00:32:16):
alcohol is by far the biggest and has the most members in a fellowship,

Adam Lyons (00:32:20):
but there's zero warning.

Adam Lyons (00:32:22):
Forget about certain drugs being normalized and glamorized in movies.

Adam Lyons (00:32:25):
Alcohol is just...

Adam Lyons (00:32:27):
It's alcohol.

Adam Lyons (00:32:29):
Alcohol is not a drug.

Adam Lyons (00:32:30):
You know what I mean?

Adam Lyons (00:32:31):
Which is just so sad.

Adam Lyons (00:32:32):
But to answer your question,

Adam Lyons (00:32:33):
there's a commercial with Jamie Foxx saying,

Adam Lyons (00:32:36):
give us $5 and we'll give you 200 free.

Adam Lyons (00:32:39):
And bells and whistles.

Adam Lyons (00:32:40):
And at the very bottom, if you have a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER.

Adam Lyons (00:32:42):
Like, come on.

Rachel Casey (00:32:43):
But that's what I was saying.

Rachel Casey (00:32:44):
Like, it almost mocks it in a way.

Colin Casey (00:32:47):
I would have said bet responsibly.

Colin Casey (00:32:48):
So do the drink.

Rachel Casey (00:32:51):
I'm like, okay, I'll be responsible in the amount I drink, which is all of it.

Rachel Casey (00:32:56):
And I used to make fun of those things.

Rachel Casey (00:32:58):
Now it's almost backwards that alcoholism is probably viewed as a very serious

Rachel Casey (00:33:03):
issue in the world.

Rachel Casey (00:33:04):
There's more awareness.

Rachel Casey (00:33:06):
We have the Surgeon General now saying there's no safe limit of alcohol.

Rachel Casey (00:33:10):
It used to be one drink a day.

Rachel Casey (00:33:13):
But they don't get the warning.

Rachel Casey (00:33:14):
Almost like I don't hear as much about people recovering from gambling.

Adam Lyons (00:33:18):
But we will.

Adam Lyons (00:33:19):
Trust me.

Adam Lyons (00:33:19):
In the next five years, there is a storm coming with gambling.

Colin Casey (00:33:22):
That was my second question.

Colin Casey (00:33:24):
Just how worried are you for the future of where this thing is headed?

Colin Casey (00:33:28):
Because when I think back five years ago,

Colin Casey (00:33:32):
ESPN bet didn't exist.

Colin Casey (00:33:34):
And,

Colin Casey (00:33:35):
you know,

Colin Casey (00:33:35):
or college football,

Colin Casey (00:33:36):
Brent Musburger,

Colin Casey (00:33:37):
and then they didn't talk about the sports lines.

Colin Casey (00:33:40):
It was very hush-hush.

Colin Casey (00:33:41):
Now, all of a sudden, it's everywhere.

Colin Casey (00:33:44):
And what's even scarier is since the betting age is 18, not only...

Colin Casey (00:33:50):
come to the casino let's put the caesars or bet mgm or bet espn on your phone the

Colin Casey (00:33:57):
second most addicting device in the world and then let's put the gambling app on

Rachel Casey (00:34:02):
there the other most addicting thing in the world you're in the right state you can

Rachel Casey (00:34:07):
literally do slots on your phone

Adam Lyons (00:34:09):
Yeah.

Adam Lyons (00:34:10):
When I think of my generation and the generations before me that ended up in these

Adam Lyons (00:34:15):
12-step rooms,

Adam Lyons (00:34:16):
we had to call a bookie.

Adam Lyons (00:34:18):
We had to go to the casino.

Adam Lyons (00:34:19):
We played poker at home.

Adam Lyons (00:34:20):
We played keno in the bars.

Adam Lyons (00:34:22):
And you would never hear...

Adam Lyons (00:34:27):
Anybody outside of Vegas talk about the spread or the over under or the line that

Adam Lyons (00:34:31):
was Pete Rose never got in the Hall of Fame because he bet on baseball.

Adam Lyons (00:34:34):
You cannot turn on any major sports network at this point without on the bottom of the screen.

Adam Lyons (00:34:41):
It's saying the spread of every single game and every single sport.

Adam Lyons (00:34:44):
If you watch a basketball game at halftime,

Adam Lyons (00:34:47):
they'll give you the updated lines,

Adam Lyons (00:34:48):
the live lines that you can bet.

Adam Lyons (00:34:50):
It's not just Michigan and Nevada.

Adam Lyons (00:34:53):
In multiple states in this country,

Adam Lyons (00:34:54):
whatever there is at the physical casino is now available on your phone.

Adam Lyons (00:35:00):
And so you can play craps in your phone.

Adam Lyons (00:35:02):
You can play roulette.

Adam Lyons (00:35:03):
You can play blackjack.

Adam Lyons (00:35:04):
You can play whatever you want on your phone.

Adam Lyons (00:35:07):
So to answer your question, yeah, this thing is going to explode because...

Adam Lyons (00:35:14):
It's already at your fingertips.

Adam Lyons (00:35:15):
Every day, I still go to a meeting twice a week.

Adam Lyons (00:35:19):
I'd say 90% of the new people that come through the door, it's all the same story.

Adam Lyons (00:35:24):
It's on my phone.

Adam Lyons (00:35:24):
It was on my phone.

Adam Lyons (00:35:25):
I'm playing blackjack on the way to work.

Adam Lyons (00:35:27):
I'm spinning roulette while I'm sitting on the toilet.

Adam Lyons (00:35:29):
You can use credit cards.

Adam Lyons (00:35:30):
You can do cash advances on your phone to gamble.

Adam Lyons (00:35:33):
So that's why I'm so passionate about the Modern Meeting,

Adam Lyons (00:35:38):
and I'm so grateful I got into these rooms when I did because...

Adam Lyons (00:35:42):
Within a few months of me getting help is when all this exploded on the phones.

Adam Lyons (00:35:47):
So I don't know.

Adam Lyons (00:35:48):
If I waited, I don't know if I'd be here.

Rachel Casey (00:35:50):
Say,

Rachel Casey (00:35:50):
and then the extra layer of manipulation,

Rachel Casey (00:35:53):
and this is the same with alcohol,

Rachel Casey (00:35:55):
is that the ones making all the money are the casinos.

Rachel Casey (00:36:00):
So during Super Bowl, the ads are the most expensive, right?

Rachel Casey (00:36:03):
That's what it's known for.

Rachel Casey (00:36:04):
It's a very expensive spot to have.

Rachel Casey (00:36:06):
But it's filled with...

Rachel Casey (00:36:09):
online betting of this five dollars input 200 output it's filled with these

Rachel Casey (00:36:14):
alcoholic uh here's all the different beer and liquor commercials but they're the

Rachel Casey (00:36:19):
only ones able to buy it and no one's questioning science for the money going there

Rachel Casey (00:36:24):
and they're making it in whatever view they want you to see it yeah they have

Rachel Casey (00:36:29):
control of the market

Adam Lyons (00:36:30):
And what these companies are doing, too, is they're doing the research.

Adam Lyons (00:36:34):
They're figuring out exactly what is going to make that 18-year-old kid download the app.

Adam Lyons (00:36:42):
What is it?

Adam Lyons (00:36:42):
There's no catch, buddy.

Adam Lyons (00:36:43):
Put in five bucks, make a bet, and we'll give you 200.

Adam Lyons (00:36:48):
Who's not going to at least do that?

Adam Lyons (00:36:51):
And that out of all those people, how many are going to get hooked?

Adam Lyons (00:36:54):
Because here's the thing about gambling, right?

Adam Lyons (00:36:56):
The one thing about gambling is that we live in this dream world.

Adam Lyons (00:37:00):
But every once in a while, we win.

Adam Lyons (00:37:02):
So for me, quick story.

Adam Lyons (00:37:05):
2018, I am in Twin River Casino in Lincoln, Rhode Island.

Adam Lyons (00:37:10):
I'm down to my last $150.

Adam Lyons (00:37:11):
Another crazy marathon night.

Adam Lyons (00:37:14):
Adam got out of work, drove to the casino, went with $1,000.

Adam Lyons (00:37:17):
He's down to $150.

Adam Lyons (00:37:19):
walking around on his phone with 12 people that he owes $12,000 to.

Adam Lyons (00:37:24):
In 20 minutes, I turned $150 into $15,000 at the craps table.

Adam Lyons (00:37:29):
My biggest win of my life.

Adam Lyons (00:37:31):
I'm literally tears in my eyes, thanking God at the table.

Adam Lyons (00:37:33):
It's five in the morning.

Adam Lyons (00:37:35):
I paid everyone off on my phone,

Adam Lyons (00:37:36):
but of course I called them all like they were of credit card companies and I'm

Adam Lyons (00:37:40):
negotiating with them.

Adam Lyons (00:37:40):
I didn't tell them that I won.

Adam Lyons (00:37:41):
I said, Hey, I came into a little bit of money.

Adam Lyons (00:37:43):
I know I owe you 800.

Adam Lyons (00:37:44):
Would you take five?

Adam Lyons (00:37:45):
And of course they all said yes.

Adam Lyons (00:37:46):
Right.

Adam Lyons (00:37:46):
Scumbag behavior.

Adam Lyons (00:37:48):
But of course I paid them all off.

Adam Lyons (00:37:52):
I'm debt free on the street.

Adam Lyons (00:37:54):
At least,

Adam Lyons (00:37:54):
you know,

Adam Lyons (00:37:55):
within six months I have a new list of 10 people and I'm down all that money.

Adam Lyons (00:37:58):
But from that point until the end,

Adam Lyons (00:38:03):
I chased that role.

Adam Lyons (00:38:04):
And it's like, well, how do you, you know, the odds of you hitting that are astronomical.

Adam Lyons (00:38:09):
You should be lucky you did it.

Adam Lyons (00:38:10):
But guess what?

Adam Lyons (00:38:10):
I did it.

Adam Lyons (00:38:11):
So the addict mind is like, if I did it, I can do it again.

Adam Lyons (00:38:15):
I watched it happen.

Adam Lyons (00:38:16):
And so that's the disease of gambling.

Adam Lyons (00:38:18):
You're never going to talk to a gambler who hasn't won or hit big.

Adam Lyons (00:38:23):
Most compulsive gamblers have all hit big.

Adam Lyons (00:38:25):
Some of these people that take the picture with the lottery,

Adam Lyons (00:38:27):
with the big checks,

Adam Lyons (00:38:28):
they're in these GA rooms.

Adam Lyons (00:38:30):
Millions they gave back.

Adam Lyons (00:38:33):
So, I mean, that's the hardest thing.

Adam Lyons (00:38:35):
When I see these people come into these rooms or when people reach out to me on the

Adam Lyons (00:38:39):
modern meeting and I say,

Adam Lyons (00:38:40):
listen,

Adam Lyons (00:38:41):
it's okay if you're not ready.

Adam Lyons (00:38:43):
It took me 20 years to admit that I was ready.

Adam Lyons (00:38:46):
So this 25-year-old kid who's been gambling since he's 18 and he's broke,

Adam Lyons (00:38:50):
he lost his girlfriend,

Adam Lyons (00:38:51):
he's this,

Adam Lyons (00:38:51):
he's that,

Adam Lyons (00:38:53):
but he goes back out and gambles after he talks to me.

Adam Lyons (00:38:56):
It's like, well, it's because you're not ready.

Adam Lyons (00:38:57):
And the only person, step one of the 12 steps, as you guys know, it's

Adam Lyons (00:39:01):
You have to admit that you're powerless.

Adam Lyons (00:39:02):
You have to surrender.

Rachel Casey (00:39:03):
You have to admit you have a problem.

Colin Casey (00:39:04):
So knowing that, what do you say to the parents?

Colin Casey (00:39:08):
Because you said that that's who's calling you now.

Colin Casey (00:39:11):
The parents.

Colin Casey (00:39:12):
What do you say to them?

Colin Casey (00:39:13):
Because we all know you're not going to stop until you're ready to stop.

Adam Lyons (00:39:17):
So the first thing I say is there's a word that I want you to remember forever,

Adam Lyons (00:39:22):
and that's bailout.

Adam Lyons (00:39:24):
You cannot bail out your son or daughter no matter what.

Adam Lyons (00:39:28):
They're going to tell you that this money is for...

Adam Lyons (00:39:32):
My roommate didn't pay the rent and I need to do this or I need to pay.

Adam Lyons (00:39:36):
It's a lie.

Adam Lyons (00:39:37):
It's to gamble.

Adam Lyons (00:39:38):
Part of my reason that it lasted 20 years is because I kept getting bailed out.

Adam Lyons (00:39:41):
My parents kept bailing me out.

Adam Lyons (00:39:43):
My friends kept bailing me out.

Adam Lyons (00:39:44):
I was like a shark smelling blood in the water.

Adam Lyons (00:39:46):
If I had a friend who I knew had money,

Adam Lyons (00:39:48):
I would overdraft the account $1,000 knowing that I could pull in his heartstrings

Adam Lyons (00:39:52):
and get him to give me a thousand bucks.

Adam Lyons (00:39:54):
So if all these people didn't do that, I might've found that room sooner.

Adam Lyons (00:39:57):
So what I tell these parents is I know it hurts.

Adam Lyons (00:40:00):
You want to love and support them and you want to bring them to that meeting.

Adam Lyons (00:40:02):
Don't give them money.

Adam Lyons (00:40:03):
You cannot give them money under any circumstance.

Adam Lyons (00:40:07):
And it's hard for them because it's like, well, what if the bookie is going to break their legs?

Adam Lyons (00:40:10):
Well, I don't know.

Adam Lyons (00:40:12):
It's that's, that's the catch 20.

Adam Lyons (00:40:13):
What I say to people, it's like, or what if my kid ends up homeless or this or that?

Adam Lyons (00:40:16):
It's like, think about it this way.

Adam Lyons (00:40:18):
If your kid hits rock bottom and then is homeless for a few months,

Adam Lyons (00:40:22):
would you trade that and then he gets on his feet and stays sober?

Adam Lyons (00:40:25):
Would you trade that for bailing him out and making this go on for years?

Adam Lyons (00:40:30):
Of course you would.

Adam Lyons (00:40:31):
If I'm in a parent's shoes, I can't say that.

Adam Lyons (00:40:34):
It's easier to say that than do it,

Adam Lyons (00:40:35):
to ignore that your kid needs money for a hole they put themselves in.

Adam Lyons (00:40:39):
But that's the first thing I tell all these parents.

Adam Lyons (00:40:41):
You can't bail them out.

Rachel Casey (00:40:43):
It feels like...

Rachel Casey (00:40:46):
You're not helping your kid, but really like that's the best thing you can do.

Rachel Casey (00:40:50):
And obviously when it comes to addiction, there is no one cookie cutter size fits all.

Rachel Casey (00:40:56):
The thing we learn about recovery is the uniqueness.

Rachel Casey (00:41:00):
We're not really that unique.

Rachel Casey (00:41:02):
When it comes down to it, the...

Rachel Casey (00:41:05):
Disease is usually in charge.

Rachel Casey (00:41:07):
People will go down far to hold on to their addiction because that's what their

Rachel Casey (00:41:12):
brain is telling them.

Rachel Casey (00:41:14):
It's just one more day of homelessness and then we get paid.

Rachel Casey (00:41:16):
When the never becomes the actuality is when the disease has a chance.

Rachel Casey (00:41:22):
Be like, maybe this is a problem, but you've got to let them hit that.

Rachel Casey (00:41:26):
And you cannot just speak it to them.

Adam Lyons (00:41:28):
I knew I had that safety net no matter what I did, no matter how much I lost.

Adam Lyons (00:41:32):
I knew I could always get my parents to bail me out.

Rachel Casey (00:41:36):
And that's what the disease will hold on to that safety net like you would not believe.

Rachel Casey (00:41:42):
And no one understands that phrase unless you've been in addiction and came out.

Rachel Casey (00:41:46):
People are like, I just don't get it.

Rachel Casey (00:41:48):
Well,

Rachel Casey (00:41:48):
congratulations that you don't get it because if you don't get it,

Rachel Casey (00:41:51):
that means you haven't been through it.

Rachel Casey (00:41:53):
But I did everything I could to hold on to alcohol as long as I possibly could

Rachel Casey (00:41:57):
until I was like,

Rachel Casey (00:41:59):
I can't do this anymore.

Rachel Casey (00:42:00):
I got really lucky that it happened when it happened.

Adam Lyons (00:42:03):
I can remember driving to that meeting with my buddy,

Adam Lyons (00:42:05):
Phil,

Adam Lyons (00:42:05):
shout out Phil,

Adam Lyons (00:42:06):
who was my coworker.

Adam Lyons (00:42:08):
And he came with me as support to my very first meeting.

Adam Lyons (00:42:10):
I can remember telling him like, listen, I don't think it's the gambling.

Adam Lyons (00:42:13):
I think I just need to get in shape or I think I just need to settle down, find a girlfriend.

Adam Lyons (00:42:17):
The gambling is just a product of my depression.

Adam Lyons (00:42:20):
And then 10 minutes into the meeting, wow, was I wrong?

Adam Lyons (00:42:23):
You know what I mean?

Adam Lyons (00:42:24):
The gambling is exactly like, it's reversed.

Adam Lyons (00:42:27):
The gambling is causing all that other stuff.

Adam Lyons (00:42:29):
I can't imagine, I mean, God willing, day at a time, things happen.

Adam Lyons (00:42:33):
But even if I get urges,

Adam Lyons (00:42:34):
once in a while,

Adam Lyons (00:42:35):
if I have a dream or if I'm just thinking about it,

Adam Lyons (00:42:38):
all I have to do is go three steps ahead and realize it always ends in misery.

Adam Lyons (00:42:44):
Always.

Adam Lyons (00:42:44):
No matter what.

Rachel Casey (00:42:45):
And that's the same for me with drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:42:48):
It's always...

Colin Casey (00:42:50):
Well, I know early on in my sobriety, you'd have those first month or two.

Colin Casey (00:42:55):
You have those like what if scenarios like what if I just take one shot?

Colin Casey (00:43:00):
And I would always think of like, what would be the point of that?

Colin Casey (00:43:03):
Go home and I would just be one shot in when it takes like it wouldn't even be

Colin Casey (00:43:08):
enough to get me tipsy.

Colin Casey (00:43:09):
I would literally be taking one shot for no reason or benefit.

Adam Lyons (00:43:13):
Yeah, that's why I moved to Austin.

Adam Lyons (00:43:15):
What if I just played poker and sports?

Adam Lyons (00:43:17):
Yep.

Adam Lyons (00:43:17):
The casinos are the worst things for me.

Rachel Casey (00:43:19):
Same with alcohol gets to a bigger and bigger place.

Colin Casey (00:43:23):
My other quick question is if you can gamble responsibly,

Colin Casey (00:43:26):
just like drinking responsibly,

Colin Casey (00:43:29):
what are your opinions on the age restriction for gambling?

Colin Casey (00:43:32):
Do you think they need to move the age limit?

Adam Lyons (00:43:34):
Honestly,

Adam Lyons (00:43:35):
recovery three years and almost four months and been doing the modern meeting for

Adam Lyons (00:43:38):
six months.

Adam Lyons (00:43:39):
No one has ever asked me that.

Adam Lyons (00:43:40):
So I love that.

Adam Lyons (00:43:41):
The first thing that popped in my head was like,

Adam Lyons (00:43:43):
I kind of feel the same way about drinking.

Adam Lyons (00:43:45):
If someone can vote and go to war,

Adam Lyons (00:43:47):
they should be able to have a drink and I feel like they should go to a place of

Adam Lyons (00:43:50):
bet.

Adam Lyons (00:43:51):
The age restrictions, I don't think it would do anything.

Adam Lyons (00:43:54):
If a kid couldn't bet on his phone, he would find a bookie.

Adam Lyons (00:43:57):
And if a kid couldn't find a bookie, he would go to an Indian casino that is 18 plus.

Adam Lyons (00:44:02):
So...

Adam Lyons (00:44:04):
Where there's a will, there's a way.

Adam Lyons (00:44:05):
When I was living in Boston, this is around 2016, so I'm still six years away from getting help.

Adam Lyons (00:44:12):
I self-excluded myself from Foxwoods and Mohegan, so I couldn't go.

Adam Lyons (00:44:16):
And I really thought that this was going to make a difference.

Adam Lyons (00:44:18):
But what did I do?

Adam Lyons (00:44:19):
I played more keno.

Adam Lyons (00:44:20):
I played more poker.

Adam Lyons (00:44:22):
And I ended up moving to fucking Vegas.

Adam Lyons (00:44:25):
You know, I said that the reason I went to Vegas was because I want a fresh start.

Adam Lyons (00:44:29):
No, it's because I couldn't gamble anymore.

Adam Lyons (00:44:30):
Right.

Adam Lyons (00:44:31):
That's all it is.

Rachel Casey (00:44:31):
So we can manipulate any situation.

Rachel Casey (00:44:34):
We will find a way.

Adam Lyons (00:44:36):
Yeah, for sure.

Adam Lyons (00:44:37):
But do I think that there should be some type of it should not be on phones?

Adam Lyons (00:44:41):
I agree with literally they almost banned TikTok.

Adam Lyons (00:44:44):
You should only be able to gamble in a casino and

Adam Lyons (00:44:48):
I agree with that completely.

Rachel Casey (00:44:49):
My husband might need to cover his ears,

Rachel Casey (00:44:52):
but I'm going to just ask this for half comedy,

Rachel Casey (00:44:55):
half real.

Rachel Casey (00:44:57):
Should fancy football be considered gambling?

Rachel Casey (00:45:01):
Because the obsession that happens with this man to my right.

Rachel Casey (00:45:05):
When I told him I had an eating disorder and I go to meetings for that,

Rachel Casey (00:45:10):
he's like,

Rachel Casey (00:45:11):
I have a disorder with fantasy football.

Rachel Casey (00:45:12):
I care.

Rachel Casey (00:45:13):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:45:14):
And he cares too much.

Rachel Casey (00:45:16):
And he's like,

Rachel Casey (00:45:17):
I bond with friends because he's over there texting and looking up so-and-so

Rachel Casey (00:45:21):
players.

Rachel Casey (00:45:22):
And I'm like, maybe fantasy football should be off of her.

Colin Casey (00:45:25):
But it's not daily fantasy.

Colin Casey (00:45:27):
It's just, you know, your old school fantasy.

Adam Lyons (00:45:29):
So if there's one thing that I am a little bummed out about,

Adam Lyons (00:45:33):
about my sobriety is that I can't do my family fantasy football league and that

Adam Lyons (00:45:40):
fantasy football is gambling,

Adam Lyons (00:45:41):
right?

Adam Lyons (00:45:42):
Like we can't, but you have a problem.

Adam Lyons (00:45:45):
No, but I never ever got like, I would get more out of,

Adam Lyons (00:45:52):
A $5 poker game with my grandma than I did playing fantasy football.

Adam Lyons (00:45:58):
Like fantasy football for me was more about the camaraderie and just about making

Adam Lyons (00:46:02):
Sunday more exciting.

Adam Lyons (00:46:03):
But I never looked at fantasy the way I looked at any type.

Rachel Casey (00:46:07):
Yeah, I'm joking.

Rachel Casey (00:46:08):
I know that he doesn't either.

Adam Lyons (00:46:09):
No,

Adam Lyons (00:46:09):
but there are some that,

Adam Lyons (00:46:10):
you know,

Adam Lyons (00:46:11):
the buy-in is thousands of dollars and you're going to pay X amount for every trade

Adam Lyons (00:46:15):
you do or every waiver wire.

Rachel Casey (00:46:16):
I don't think it's a legal buy-in.

Rachel Casey (00:46:18):
I think it's like you play with for free, or at least on Yahoo anyway.

Rachel Casey (00:46:21):
The commissioner collects money, even though it doesn't bring you the same amount of joy.

Rachel Casey (00:46:25):
That would be like equivalent to like an alcoholic saying,

Rachel Casey (00:46:28):
I didn't enjoy a beer,

Rachel Casey (00:46:30):
but I can just go have a beer.

Adam Lyons (00:46:31):
Yeah,

Adam Lyons (00:46:32):
I mean,

Adam Lyons (00:46:32):
as I'm getting more into meeting people in the recovery space,

Adam Lyons (00:46:36):
I meet a lot of people who are in recovery but don't go to a 12-step meeting.

Adam Lyons (00:46:41):
You might talk to them and they might say that fantasy football is okay as long as

Adam Lyons (00:46:44):
you're not putting any money on it,

Adam Lyons (00:46:46):
right?

Adam Lyons (00:46:47):
Which, I don't know.

Adam Lyons (00:46:48):
For me, that sounds a lot like a prelapse, right?

Adam Lyons (00:46:51):
That sounds like some seeds being planted in your brain.

Adam Lyons (00:46:54):
And so I just would never mess it up.

Rachel Casey (00:46:56):
feel about non-alcoholic drinks I don't beer the non-alcoholic beers or wines and

Rachel Casey (00:47:01):
in my mind it's like I don't want to normalize drinking again and I'm not to the

Rachel Casey (00:47:07):
point where I'm like oh I'm gonna have a sip

Rachel Casey (00:47:10):
But I just don't like the impersonation of it.

Rachel Casey (00:47:13):
And it makes me kind of upset that I have to conform to you.

Rachel Casey (00:47:16):
You know, like, how about I just don't drink because I'm an alcoholic?

Adam Lyons (00:47:20):
No,

Adam Lyons (00:47:20):
it's the same when I'm bartending and someone I'm working with is staring at the TV

Adam Lyons (00:47:27):
the whole shift.

Adam Lyons (00:47:28):
And they're like, oh, I just lost my parlay and this and that.

Adam Lyons (00:47:31):
And I just want to be like, bro, like, you want to know how this ends?

Adam Lyons (00:47:34):
Whether you're an addict or not, you're not going to win.

Adam Lyons (00:47:37):
And that's the other thing that's so irresponsible and so fucked up about all these

Adam Lyons (00:47:41):
influencers and all these people that post it.

Adam Lyons (00:47:43):
Like someone, for instance, like Dave Portnoy.

Adam Lyons (00:47:46):
I really like Dave Portnoy.

Adam Lyons (00:47:47):
I like most of everything he represents.

Adam Lyons (00:47:48):
But he puts up like a daily...

Adam Lyons (00:47:51):
four or five leg parlay sponsored by draft Kings that he has tens of thousands of

Adam Lyons (00:47:57):
people following him on that bet.

Adam Lyons (00:47:59):
And guess what?

Adam Lyons (00:48:00):
It never hits.

Adam Lyons (00:48:01):
And the one time it does hit at seven to one, they just lost 15 straight before that.

Adam Lyons (00:48:08):
So to my earlier point, even when you win, you're still losing.

Adam Lyons (00:48:11):
Yeah.

Adam Lyons (00:48:12):
And that's the most fucked up part about the last two years of just the marketing

Adam Lyons (00:48:15):
of this is that it's literally creating a brand new,

Adam Lyons (00:48:21):
epidemic I hope I'm being dramatic I really do I think that when we come back maybe

Rachel Casey (00:48:28):
in the future we can have like a regathering that we can be like hey let's look at

Rachel Casey (00:48:33):
our talk five years ago and maybe we're like we weren't being dramatic enough

Rachel Casey (00:48:37):
I really have felt like maybe we weren't so early to the sober game as we thought

Rachel Casey (00:48:41):
because there's so many others.

Rachel Casey (00:48:43):
But now I'm like, I think we might be in the early stages, to be honest.

Rachel Casey (00:48:47):
And it's like getting to that point where you're realizing how many people actually

Rachel Casey (00:48:51):
have a problem with it.

Rachel Casey (00:48:52):
And identifying with others is really the connection that comes from that addiction

Rachel Casey (00:48:59):
is more powerful than the addiction.

Rachel Casey (00:49:01):
Yeah.

Adam Lyons (00:49:01):
And that's why your podcast is so important and why all of our podcasts are so

Adam Lyons (00:49:05):
important because for each of us that goes and tells our story and puts it out

Adam Lyons (00:49:10):
there,

Adam Lyons (00:49:10):
even if that gets one or two people to tell their story or to go to a meeting or to

Adam Lyons (00:49:15):
just tell their spouse or their loved one,

Adam Lyons (00:49:18):
like I have a problem,

Adam Lyons (00:49:19):
you got to keep going.

Adam Lyons (00:49:19):
We got to keep spreading awareness and we just got to keep trying to break down

Adam Lyons (00:49:23):
that stigma,

Adam Lyons (00:49:24):
you know?

Rachel Casey (00:49:26):
And I think the name of your podcast is just so creative in even I like modern meeting.

Rachel Casey (00:49:32):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:49:32):
For someone I'm 31.

Rachel Casey (00:49:34):
I want to go to a modern meeting.

Rachel Casey (00:49:36):
Like that sounds fantastic because before I went to AA, I didn't know.

Colin Casey (00:49:41):
And it feels so old and decrepit.

Rachel Casey (00:49:43):
Oh yeah.

Colin Casey (00:49:44):
And they're going to dark and gloomy or yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:49:47):
And so I think you're spreading awareness.

Rachel Casey (00:49:50):
It's going to have to come to a head at some point.

Adam Lyons (00:49:52):
For sure.

Adam Lyons (00:49:53):
The bubble's going to burst.

Adam Lyons (00:49:54):
And I say this all the time, as gambling is evolving, so needs to gambling recovery.

Adam Lyons (00:50:01):
We can't just rely on the church basements and our sponsors and the 12 steps and

Adam Lyons (00:50:06):
the yellow book.

Adam Lyons (00:50:07):
We need more.

Adam Lyons (00:50:08):
We need to go toe to toe with this ever changing,

Adam Lyons (00:50:11):
ever evolving technology driven monster that is gambling.

Rachel Casey (00:50:15):
Thank you for being literally Sober Manter's first gambling addiction.

Colin Casey (00:50:19):
This was awesome.

Colin Casey (00:50:20):
I thought it was really fun.

Rachel Casey (00:50:21):
I say I'm an expert in anything,

Rachel Casey (00:50:23):
but like says someone,

Rachel Casey (00:50:25):
thank you for being the first person who's been on the podcast isn't also in

Rachel Casey (00:50:27):
gambling addiction because there is a lot of cross addiction.

Rachel Casey (00:50:30):
Thank you for being open and honest and willing to tell your story,

Rachel Casey (00:50:33):
even if it's not one of the more common addictions,

Rachel Casey (00:50:36):
even though it's probably more common than we think.

Rachel Casey (00:50:39):
I can't wait to share this because I think it's such a different perspective that

Rachel Casey (00:50:43):
gives a lot of insight.

Colin Casey (00:50:44):
No, thank you for having me, guys.

Colin Casey (00:50:45):
Rachel Collin, this was amazing.

Colin Casey (00:50:47):
Getting it out there because,

Colin Casey (00:50:48):
yeah,

Colin Casey (00:50:50):
there's got to be more done than just the basements and churches or 12 Steps.

Rachel Casey (00:50:55):
And being in these uncomfortable questions where it's like,

Rachel Casey (00:50:58):
that's what sober banter was supposed to be for.

Rachel Casey (00:51:00):
It's supposed to be like a, hey, let's ask.

Rachel Casey (00:51:03):
Like,

Rachel Casey (00:51:04):
I wouldn't normally,

Rachel Casey (00:51:04):
if I meet someone who does have a gambling addiction,

Rachel Casey (00:51:07):
I'm not going to just ask some of the questions I thought.

Rachel Casey (00:51:11):
Like, what do you think of the 1-800 numbers?

Rachel Casey (00:51:13):
I don't typically talk about my drunkenness or being drunk on the gambling table or

Rachel Casey (00:51:17):
college having to pull me off because I was blacked out.

Rachel Casey (00:51:20):
But that's the truth.

Rachel Casey (00:51:21):
And that's what I need people to see.

Colin Casey (00:51:23):
You were playing blackjack and it was during COVID and they were saying,

Colin Casey (00:51:27):
actually,

Colin Casey (00:51:28):
you need to have a gas.

Colin Casey (00:51:29):
I was like, no, that's my wife.

Colin Casey (00:51:31):
I'm trying to get her off the table.

Colin Casey (00:51:33):
Oh, that's funny.

Colin Casey (00:51:34):
But they're like, well, COVID protocol, you actually have.

Rachel Casey (00:51:36):
I don't remember again.

Rachel Casey (00:51:37):
So like it was the way that I drank overtook everything else.

Rachel Casey (00:51:44):
Alcohol was like my number one drug, but I definitely gambled more than

Rachel Casey (00:51:49):
loosely and ridiculously when i was drinking and i'd wake up and be like i don't

Rachel Casey (00:51:53):
remember doing any of that i think that they do coincide in that way but in

Rachel Casey (00:51:58):
sobriety i've had to be careful because if i feel like i want to go chase a dragon

Rachel Casey (00:52:04):
i can tell you that this is my wanting to fill that void that alcohol gave gambling

Rachel Casey (00:52:10):
can be a close second but not in the way even that you described but

Rachel Casey (00:52:15):
I can see it substituting,

Rachel Casey (00:52:17):
just like I'm sure there could get to a point like if any gambler,

Rachel Casey (00:52:20):
not just you,

Rachel Casey (00:52:21):
but anyone was having a bad day and you substitute alcohol and it kind of gives

Rachel Casey (00:52:25):
that feeling.

Rachel Casey (00:52:26):
It's all about time setting place.

Rachel Casey (00:52:29):
But my main drug of choice, which it sounds like yours was gambling, mine was alcohol.

(00:52:34):
For sure.

Rachel Casey (00:52:35):
But I can relate.

Rachel Casey (00:52:35):
I still don't understand.

Rachel Casey (00:52:37):
I didn't understand the lines back then.

Rachel Casey (00:52:38):
And they're like, lines are moving.

Rachel Casey (00:52:39):
And I'm like, where are the lines?

Rachel Casey (00:52:41):
Not the line.

Rachel Casey (00:52:42):
And I'm like, they're like, the line set.

Rachel Casey (00:52:44):
And I'm like, who's who?

Rachel Casey (00:52:46):
Who's that fucking line?

Rachel Casey (00:52:47):
Like, I don't know what lines you're talking about.

Rachel Casey (00:52:50):
And like, what's an under three?

Rachel Casey (00:52:51):
What's me?

Adam Lyons (00:52:53):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:52:54):
I hated it.

Rachel Casey (00:52:55):
I don't know.

Rachel Casey (00:52:55):
The only bets I've made are straight.

Rachel Casey (00:52:57):
I don't care about lies.

Adam Lyons (00:52:58):
You know what bet I made for like 12 straight years that you would get?

Adam Lyons (00:53:01):
I would bet an obscene amount of money on the coin toss of the Super Bowl.

Adam Lyons (00:53:05):
I did it for 12 straight years.

Adam Lyons (00:53:06):
You were that guy too.

Adam Lyons (00:53:07):
Always heads.

Rachel Casey (00:53:08):
We do like the prop bets, though, but then I did one wrong once.

Rachel Casey (00:53:11):
I didn't even know what I bet, but I was like, here's a dollar that he's going to miss it.

Rachel Casey (00:53:15):
I do know that it is a serious addiction,

Rachel Casey (00:53:17):
just in the same,

Rachel Casey (00:53:18):
that doesn't necessarily develop overnight,

Rachel Casey (00:53:20):
just like alcoholism doesn't.

Rachel Casey (00:53:21):
And probably more people have a problem with it than they realize because it's not

Rachel Casey (00:53:26):
as talked about.

Rachel Casey (00:53:27):
So I'm glad that we're bringing light to the same as alcoholism.

Rachel Casey (00:53:32):
There are a lot of other addictions out there.

Rachel Casey (00:53:35):
And they're the exact same.

Rachel Casey (00:53:36):
You could just intertwine the word and it's the exact same formula of how it takes

Rachel Casey (00:53:41):
over your life.

Rachel Casey (00:53:42):
Thank you again for coming on.

Rachel Casey (00:53:43):
And I hope we'll have a comeback episode where we can circle back and be like,

Rachel Casey (00:53:47):
wow,

Rachel Casey (00:53:48):
were we either way too early or way far off on how it's evolved?

Adam Lyons (00:53:52):
Definitely.

Adam Lyons (00:53:53):
And I would love to have you guys in the modern meeting.

Adam Lyons (00:53:55):
So let me know that or you're awesome.

Rachel Casey (00:53:57):
We are the anomaly of the people that got sober on the same day.

Adam Lyons (00:54:01):
I'm sharing for the pod.

Rachel Casey (00:54:01):
Thank you for listening to sober banter.

Rachel Casey (00:54:03):
And thank you, Adam, for coming on here.

Rachel Casey (00:54:05):
If someone is having a gambling issue, what's the best way to get in contact with you?

Adam Lyons (00:54:09):
Yeah.

Adam Lyons (00:54:10):
So either on Gmail, it's modernmeetingpod at gmail.com.

Adam Lyons (00:54:13):
DM me at modernmeeting on Instagram.

Adam Lyons (00:54:16):
And yeah, we're on all the streaming platforms.

Adam Lyons (00:54:19):
Honestly, call 1-800-GAMBLER in your area.

Adam Lyons (00:54:23):
I might answer.

Adam Lyons (00:54:23):
You never know, depending on where you are.

Adam Lyons (00:54:26):
Thank you guys so much for having me.

Adam Lyons (00:54:27):
This has been awesome.

Rachel Casey (00:54:28):
Thank you to anyone listening and reach out to Adam and go check out the Modern

Rachel Casey (00:54:33):
Meeting,

Rachel Casey (00:54:33):
whether it's gambling or alcohol or you're just curious,

Rachel Casey (00:54:36):
go listen.