Good morning, Grid Connections listeners.
Welcome back to Grid Connections, the podcast where we explore all things transportation, clean energy, and our power grid connecting all of these systems together.
Today, we welcome back Walter Schulze, host of the Network Architect channel, for an in-depth look at how EV charging infrastructure is rapidly evolving.
Walter shares his first-hand experience navigating the latest fast charging networks, from Tesla superchargers to the explosive growth of Pilot Flying J.
EVgo and IANA.
We also dig into why lower cost EVs like the Chevrolet Equinox EV and upcoming Chevy Bolt will drive a massive demand for public charging.
How retail giants like Walmart and Costco are jumping into EV charging to attract more customers.
The real economics of fast charging and why membership plans might be the smartest way to save on road trips.
Along with the future of plug and charge technology and why some networks are skipping apps altogether.
If you've ever wondered where EV charging is headed next, this episode is packed with real world insights and expert analysis from our guests today.
So don't keep it to yourself.
Share this episode with someone who's curious about the future of EV charging.
And if you enjoyed it, please leave us a quick review.
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Plus sign up for our brand new Great Connections newsletter to stay on the top of everything happening in the world of electric vehicles and clean energy.
Hit the link in the show notes to learn.
more about the newsletter and everything we cover in today's episode along with yesterday's episode where I was on the coast to coast electric vehicles YouTube live
stream talking about all things around the current situation of electric vehicles, Tesla's as a brand and much much more.
It was a great conversation and Walter was part of the panel as well.
So with that enjoy.
I operate what's called the Network Architect channel and you would think that'd be computer based and initially it was, but it just kind of evolved into other technology and
one of which was my passions was electric vehicles.
And that's really where the focus of the channel is now.
I operate content.
that is primarily focused on electric vehicle charging expansion throughout the United States.
I think it's a good way of characterizing what I've found is my mission here.
I think that is a pretty good summary, but I'm kind of curious.
Obviously as you kind of shared, you do have a bit of the background and more of the traditional IT background, but how did you get involved with this or like what, what, what
was the original inspiration?
What kind of got you passionate about electric vehicles?
Sure.
We were a internal combustion engine household until my wife got a 2019 Tesla Model 3 Long Range.
And after which it became a curiosity of mine.
Using an electric car in order to take trips, seemed like such an impossible thing.
I didn't even know that was achievable until I got in it and I actually saw the landscape that is the Tesla Supercharger Network.
And without a doubt, it's the gold standard for the user experience for taking a road trip.
It's integrated into the car, is optimized for the fastest recharge time, very conveniently located, very ample stall count, dependability.
I've never pulled into a Tesla supercharger station that hadn't worked.
And it just really opened my eyes.
I'm like, this is actually, this is achievable.
I can remember one time I took a business trip from Charlotte, North Carolina to Memphis, Tennessee.
And it was just the fact that it could be done.
You know, it's not the fact that it was might, might've been a little bit longer.
It could be, you can hop in an electric car and you could drive across country and it's not an issue.
And that was just a big turning point for me after which we got a second car, which was a Volvo XC40 recharge.
and we tried to take road trips in it and its road trip experience was dramatically different from the supercharger experience.
And that kind of as a husband and a self-appointed protector, I started to investigate options for electric vehicle charging just to try to make the road tripping in the Volvo
easier.
And it takes a lot more planning, at least back in the day, and it still does to some extent, on a CCS station landscape in order to do a road trip.
And from there, it just kind of expanded into researching charging stations.
And then we got a Cadillac Lyric and the Lyric came with two years of free with EVGO.
And I'm like, EVGO, let's see where I can go on an EVGO.
And it turns out there's, there's lots of expansions and activity going in EVGO as well.
So really from there, that was the starting point of where I started to make content from.
And now you have the lyrics still and you just got a Chevrolet Equinox, correct?
did.
Yeah, boy, that is a beast.
The deals they're putting on those, if you could find one that's 2024, that's still sitting on a lot somewhere.
The managers are trying to move those things off their lots in order to make space for the 2025.
And they're really discounting.
I got like $4,500 off on mine.
Yeah, I think it was John McElroy that was on here and he says, doesn't matter how well or how expensive a vehicle is.
It will always sell if it's on a dealership and it just depends who is going to be the one that has to pay that, that Delta and prize.
I think I got the favorable outcome there.
But you never know when you're the customer at a car dealership whether or not you're making out ahead or not.
But it felt like it.
And they seem to be good people at my dealership.
That's great.
So I guess that's something a lot of our listeners are always kind of curious about, what have been your experiences when buying an electric vehicle?
mean, Volvo is usually a pretty well known brand for being a little bit more, uh, customer centric and at least being open to having those conversations from a company that's
traditionally had an internal combustion engine background.
I'm just kind of curious if you've seen any evolution or if you've had a pretty mostly fortunate experience with the different dealerships you've worked with while buying any of
them.
Well, the truth is that in our household, really my wife is the one who makes the automotive buying decisions.
And it sounds kind of upside down, but that's just kind of what it is.
I'll drive whatever.
I really don't care.
So she basically buys the new car and then I get whatever she hands down as a secondary car.
And so you'd, we'd have to pull her in right now.
She's chopping up a gourmet dinner out there in the kitchen to ask her what her buying experience was.
Actually, the first car I got was the Equinox.
That was the one that I actually did for myself.
And the reason I did, I'm like, listen, this is a crazy deal.
We have to do this.
We're going to decrease our monthly payment by 200 bucks.
We're going to get a new car and it's even bigger than the XC 40 recharge.
And so it just was a very easy decision.
So in that case, it was a little bit different, but normally my wife is the one she's the one who got the Tesla and Lyric and the Volvo.
And then me, I was the Equinox and the relationship we have with the current General Motors dealership is very positive.
nice people, very friendly, very accommodating, it's very close to our house and there's a whole question about whether dealers are good or bad.
I think that's kind of a mood issue.
Well, in that case, what was, obviously the price was a big part of it.
And I know just kind of in passing and watching a couple of your videos talking about it seems like what you'd seen with Tom Malogny and his, experience with his own Equinox was
part of the reason, but was it really just price or was what was kind of the forcing function that made you go with the Equinox?
I just feel like there's a lot of great deals right now when it comes to EVs, especially if you're looking at leasing or kind of trying to take advantage of some of these special
rates.
Well, if you look at the Volvo XC40 recharge, the 2022 has a buck 50 charging speed and about 240 EPA range.
Now I was able to squeeze 240 out of it doing like perfect conditions where a couple of days I was not using the HVAC and things like that, but I'm thinking I've lost probably
about five, 8 % of the range with the new Equinox.
I get over 300.
a similar charging speed, more car because it's bigger, and less monthly payment.
And so for me, was why would I not do that?
I couldn't think of a reason.
loved I really loved the Volvo XC40 recharge, very dependable, wickedly fast, very comfortable, kind of a luxe feel to it.
That definitely appealed to my characteristics.
But that deal was just too good.
Well, that makes a lot of sense.
And it seems like it has been a pretty positive experience for you just move it into that.
And obviously the bigger size and everything.
I'm kind of curious now that we've, you've, you've kind of discussed the different EVs you've moved into and what you've owned.
What are like looking back this past year, like what to use really stood out from the ownership experience when it comes to the EV charging side of it.
I know there's been a large, something you cover so well as kind of the expansion of.
Pilot flying J and a lot of these kind of more traditionally well-known Essentially gas providers usually near kind of great locations along highways interstates But before we
can again to that I was just kind of curious like what are you seeing as far as?
That what to you is kind of like the outstanding improvements for day-to-day ownership as an EV is it sometimes the software?
What are some of these things that you kind of just think like?
Really make it clear that this is where everything is going because that's what I hear from you understandably a lot
But I just want to kind of maybe give some of that context for our listeners as well.
Yeah, I think the primary reason EVs were introduced as a option for purchasing was compliance vehicles in order to help spur improved environmental responsibility.
And I don't know if I'm a bad person or not, but I don't use that as a primary purchase decision.
Really what I've always been focused on is the most reliability for my dollar.
And back in the day, Mercedes was really
brand to go for if you wanted a really reliable car.
You had to pay more for it, but you're going to get a very reliable car.
And yes, it was going to cost more to repair when it broke down, but boy, was it a, you know, it'd keep going for 300,000 miles.
Now I can get an Equinox and it's like many times more reliable than the best Mercedes back in the day, because there's just so many fewer components.
I'd never go get things repaired.
And there's no oil to change.
I love the ability of the convenience of charging in my garage.
I never go to gas stations anymore.
We recently had to bring the car in for a service, the Cadillac Lyric, and they offered us a loaner.
And both me and my wife were like, no, we don't want a gas car.
That means we'd have to go to a gas station.
And who does that?
Who goes to a gas station to buy gas?
You you put your credit card in the machine.
We don't do that anymore.
We get our electricity, we get our fuel from the electricity of the house.
So I think that's the number one thing is the convenience and the reliability.
For me, the wickedly fast speed is not a element that I'm seeking.
It is there, but it's the reliability and the convenience factors.
I don't think I could have said it better myself.
think I was even just anecdotally reminded of that.
Just this past week we have a two EVs and then a classic 87 Land Rover Defender, which is usually what we kind of take the dogs in to go out kind of like mountain hiking
adventures.
And we were trying to do it, but we were kind of short for time and we get in and we realized, okay, we have to stop at a gas station.
We have to put oil in it all these things, which that's also kind of the fun of ownership of something kind of like this as a classic vehicle, but.
When we were pressed on time, you just kind of get spoiled with those things that you forget about.
And the unfortunate inconveniences that pros and cons of the combustion world.
weekend I used to go to the gas station to fill the tanks up for the week, right?
And I haven't done that in years now.
Well, let's go to kind of the main focus of this and kind of discuss your special domain of expertise, which is around just looking at domestic North American, EV fast charging.
And I'd be just curious what to you has been the biggest takeaways kind of looking at like 2024 and maybe just even the past year or so of what really has stood out to you as being
like the big change and making
the non-Tesla realm more approachable for more EV drivers.
It's really been a roller coaster.
2024 has been a wild roller coaster.
I, about halfway through, was waiting for the GM to switch over to the supercharger so we could finally gain access to it.
And shortly thereafter, I became a member with my Volvo for supercharger station charging with the discounted rates where I get the same rates that Tesla owners do.
And Volvo came shortly after General Motors.
So that was a seminal event.
Because being a former Tesla owner, know the ubiquity is really what is the gold standard.
The reliability is one thing, but it's the ubiquity.
It's the fact that there are stations all over.
If I have a good count on it, I think it's right around 23 or 2,500 stations throughout North America, Canada and the United States, not including Mexico, and something like
10,000 stalls.
And so always having us all available at very convenient locations is what is, you know, it's the whole ability to survive a road trip.
Like I said, on my trip from Charlotte to Memphis in an electric vehicle, the Tesla Supercharger station provides that.
And so that was definitely a seminal moment in the non-Tesla realm is the access.
And I know that several OEMs are still waiting for their access, but for us, the transition was General Motors and Volvo.
And both of those were.
big transitions.
There's really no way around it.
That opened up all kinds of avenues that weren't there before.
But also 2024 saw the burgeoning network of Pilot Flying J finally surpass a hundred stations.
My wife and I were able to travel free of charge in her Cadillac Lyric from North Carolina to the Grand Canyon National Park and back using just Pilot Flying J stations.
We did have to charge at one Electrify America station where there was a bit of a gap in
New Mexico.
But boy is that nice.
Those are immediately off the Tesla Supercharger actually doesn't have anything to compare to those things.
Those are right off the interstate and because it's on the property of the site host that is running the station and the canopies are built in and then you just go right into the
restrooms and other facilities are right there immediately off the interstate.
That was such a sweet trip.
And the fact that we had two years of free with the purchase of the Lyric was just such a delight.
Beautiful weather, didn't have any problems whatsoever until my wife decided she wanted to go to Roswell and that was off script.
And then we had to quickly find some audible charging stations.
Apparently Roswell, New Mexico has got quite a bit of charging infrastructure in it.
So who would have thunk?
But many things are occurring in 2024.
I could probably talk for a full 20 minutes.
So I'll just kind of leave that as the intro.
Well, let's, let's go a little more in depth.
I think that is one of the big themes we've kind of heard on this podcast is just talking to a lot of people recently about some of the challenges that still remain, but really how
quickly those challenges are being improved upon or even just being removed from these experience altogether that were kind of a big reason.
A of people were holding back on EVs.
mean, let's kind of dig that a little bit deeper.
Like what, what are some of those for you?
Cause I think one of the things I also want to talk to you about is
The coverage you're in North Carolina, North Carolina, correct?
Or yeah.
I'm on the West coast kind of in a more rural area, but it is really fascinating to me when I've done, kind of, and it's interesting because that area you're talking about is
like really when, once you start getting west of the Missouri river.
And you can even look at this, when you look at a population map, you start getting much less density of population, but the density of DC fast chargers really does change night
and day, like to the east of it.
there's so many more chargers and many more beyond just Tesla superchargers.
Whereas once you start getting west of it, I've just, that's where I've kind of run into most of the issues with my, EV road trips.
Not that it's ever stranded me or anything, but you do just start, to be a little more strategic, even in the test of where you decide you want to charge.
So yeah, I'd love to hear more about your experience with that and how you kind of go about with choosing locations for charging.
Well, in the lyric, it's for sure sticking with EVGO because we have free charging and why not.
And actually EVGO has done a terrific job of upscaling their network.
At one point they were just a ready tag network of Nissan funded chargers that were there in order to help with the LEAF initiative.
But they've got mad money behind them now.
There's the DOE loan and I was just listening prior to this.
podcast, the investor relation earnings call for 2024.
And I try to stick with the data.
The headlines can be a bit sensationalized and no, think the death of the electric vehicle is being reported far too early because the data that I'm looking at is not in 2024.
They saw 116 % increase in electrons delivered.
And so that is a raw number.
We don't have Tesla's numbers because they put the supercharger line items underneath, I believe, other services lumped in with insurance.
So we don't actually get the information from Tesla supercharger, but I'd have to assume it's similar.
So 116 % year over year growth in aggregate throughput.
that 422 number right there is mostly piloting J.
stalls and what they're projecting for 2025 is an increase of somewhere between 450 and 550 what they call EVGO extend stalls as well as they're starting to ramp up with what
they call the DOE loan which is 1.25 billion of which 75 million has already been dispersed and so there's questions about whether or not this even leave
legally possible for the Trump administration to claw that back.
But some of the money has already been dispersed and I think they're going to be getting 75 million every quarter through 2030.
And assuming that stays in place, they're going to triple the size of their network and be somewhere around 4,000 stations by 2030, sitting in a very good place.
Even if the idea we gets pulled,
The executive leadership was talking about alternative funding sources because they're one of the few CPOs that is actually getting ready to flip to a net positive margin.
For the first time in 2025, they'll actually be earning money and they attribute that to the utilization of their chargers has increased past 20%.
So you have a charger sitting in the ground on average, their chargers are being used more than
about 20 % of the time.
And so that for them is causing all kinds of different economics that are very positive for them.
It decreases the demand charges and they're able to spread those out and the other site specific costs associated with leases and whatnot.
So they're doing very well and only bright future ahead for them.
if electric vehicles stop,
getting sold, they're still fine because according to the EBGO executive leadership, there's still a gap in the number of cars currently in the population that are demanding
charging and the amount of charging that is available.
So those two things combined is making their market, they're fine.
Even if EVs stop getting sold right now and went to zero, there's still enough EVs on the road in order for them to continue to grow.
But that's not going to happen.
We all know that's not going to happen.
Even if the tax credit is removed and
who knows what else they put some kind of crazy federal tax on EVs.
It's still going to be like my Equinox lease deal.
Eventually, we're going to have less expensive cars that are more reliable and who's not going to choose that.
Yeah, I think this kind of goes to a little bit of what I was alluding to earlier, just there's been so many reasons for pushback in the past towards EVs and some of them to some
extent actually had been pretty reasonable and understandable when it comes to like the actual road tripping of it.
But really with the last few years, we've seen that be finally fleshed out with these different networks among one of among other reasons.
But I completely agree with you.
I mean, we're seeing I think this has been a constant kind of conversation we've had on this podcast, but for like the past
year we've been hearing about how EV demand is drying up, how EV cells are slowing down.
Well, when you actually pull part of the data, mean, some of that has been kind of Tesla's being the larger leader of has slowed down a little bit, but the bigger really message to
take from that is the fact that when you actually look at the entire auto industry, not just electric vehicles, that is what's slowing down the most.
It's not really specifically electric vehicles.
There's actually some pretty big deltas in
negative growth with a lot of automakers across their whole product fleet, combustion engine, you name it.
And so seeing like even, I believe they're still kind of predicting around a 10 % for this year of sales domestically, which is still lower than a lot of the other countries for
their EV sales.
That actually is a pretty big bright spot for those in the automotive industry, given how many headwinds there are just for traditional vehicle sales.
Yeah, I was going to say somewhere between 10 and 12 is what I've been hearing.
And I think it depends on whether or not the tax credit gets axed or not and what long-term effect that's going to have and whether or not it's getting absorbed by
automakers or if it's getting passed along to the consumer.
you know, it has to go with the automotive industry.
They've got a certain production number and like what you said with John McElroy, every car gets sold.
So, I mean, if they make them, they're going to sell them.
So that's really the question of the automakers.
And that's a good automaker.
I've learned this by watching it.
calibrates the number of cars they make to be in line with demand and boy is that a tough thing to do but the good ones do it well.
Yeah.
So let's kind of look at, we, mean, you obviously discussed and we kind of had that image there from Evie go and some of their projected growth and what we're seeing.
I think one of the other big ones, obviously of last year, and we're starting to see more of, and I'd love to see more on the West coast, but you've already been to one is Iona.
And obviously Iona is kind of an interesting one because they're trying to go for this kind of higher end experience while you charging, which has.
pros and cons to it if you're trying to make a business that's just that much more expense and obviously it is a company that's essentially formed by eight different automakers to
try and make easy fast ev charging and road tripping that much easier so i would love to kind of hear your thoughts on the entrance of them and what that kind of sets for a bar
for the other ev chargers out there just across the board around charging experience and then actually just being a
person going in and having the options to access the facilities and where you think this is all going.
Glad to.
And before I do just talking about the elevated experience, I think there's multiple CPOs that are throwing their hat in the trying to outdo each other game.
Like the Tesla Oasis station that's going into California is going to be a big crowd-pleasing Instagramable station.
And EBGO is partnering with General Motors to put in what are known as flagship stations.
And BP Pulse is putting in Giga Hubs.
it seems like every CPO is trying to one up the other one.
But IANA, their claim to fame is that Seth Cutler is one of us.
And so when he first was hired, he said he wasn't going to put chargers in the back lot of a shopping mall.
was basically, he's like, we're not going to reproduce the mistakes of the past.
We're going to have a customer centric charging solution for EV drivers that is a place that they want to go.
and is compelling.
Now, as you say, that can be expensive.
So we need someone with deep pockets in order to fund this.
And apparently the whole concept of the chicken and the egg that has been around for a while where government stepped in in order to fund with public funds in order to get the
charging infrastructure rolling, in order to get the technology curve
starting to occur where the cost of charging was decreasing and starting to become more advantageous and the business models were acceptable.
And that's really where the Nevi program came from.
It was that whole mindset that we needed to kickstart this electric vehicle charging infrastructure in order for it to take off.
But I think Nevi kind of showed up after it started to take off, which is a little bit ironic, but still glad to have Nevi in whatever form or fashion it ends up in.
But Ayanna, as you said, showed up here in North Carolina and I happened to be a North Carolinian.
I felt like hitting the lottery when I heard that they were making what's known as RTP or Research Triangle Park, sometimes also called the New Silicon Valley.
Their home, and it's also a couple other electric vehicle companies are calling RTP home as well.
ChemPower is up there and Vinfast is not too far from there.
So it's starting to become a hub for all kinds of different technologies, electric vehicles included.
And as a result, I actually crossed paths with a few of the higher ups and was lucky enough to be invited to both the out of spec cars and coffee and the actual rip and
cutting with the eight OEMs.
So I was able to interview multiple IANA board members and actually get insight into why
they're thinking it's needed.
And almost universally, the answer was, we're trying to solve the problems of the past and provide a product for electric vehicle owners that makes a compelling or gives a
compelling answer to charging on the go.
And so far, what they've cooked up has definitely solved that problem, but it hasn't solved the problem through focus groups.
and renderings.
They've built stations with such a ferocious speed.
It's mind blowing.
They went from October to December, turning the first spade of dirt to opening a station that was fully baked with all kinds of marketing gimmicks, a local business owner in order
to supply coffee and sundries, as well as
a QR code integrated access into off hours and restrooms and vending with top of the line hardware and a 2500 kVA transformer.
To see that all get put in and a canopy, to see that all put in and in two months was really staggering.
They say their claim to fame is that when they issue a press release, it's not for something in the future.
They issue a press release saying, hey, we're going to
build these stations and here they are.
They're already open.
You can go to them, right down the street.
So that's definitely something different about IANA and they call it IANA Speed.
Now we love to see it.
And I think it is pretty impressive.
And in a couple of ways, obviously there's a very specific kind of brand style that they're building for these locations that has kind of like almost the kind of traditional
retro.
Yeah.
I mean, it reminds me a lot of what are now the old like gas stations that are, at least you see this quite a bit on the West coast that have been kind of turned into, usually
like cafes and stuff like this, but it kind of be a stack they're going for.
As you can kind of see with this image that I'm sharing right here of the one in a, uh, apex North Carolina, where it kind of offers a lot of services.
And I think what's cool is we've seen this more usually in Europe where there's kind of a main facility where there could be like a vending machine snacks and other things that you
can access 24 seven.
Sometimes you have to have a good code.
There are other chargers, uh, Tesla ones and others domestically that have these, but they're pretty rare.
Uh, far.
in between that have this kind of level of service.
And I think it is really a great thing to see more of that just makes, especially when you're on a road trip, having something like this that even while they have some really
amazing tech and pretty fast chargers, just something that it's, it doesn't have to be just a quick in and out.
actually gives you a lot of stuff to do.
So if you're going to be at a there for a longer anyways, then you got plenty of options.
Yeah, a couple of things there.
Interstate 70 through central Kansas and Missouri is a pretty tough place to go with an electric vehicle.
And that seems to be one of the places they've set their sights on.
And a couple of locations, they're calling out quirky things about the locations they're building into, the largest easel in the world and the largest belt buckle in the world.
And so I think they're trying to revitalize that whole concept of a road trip, a retro road trip on 66 or s-
you know, that kind of a vibe back from the fifties and sixties.
But as you say, some basic amenities in UNI as older gentlemen don't really have the same concern about safety, but a lot of the ladies will say that one of the main things that
they want as a basic amenity is some form of lighting or some form of attendant for safety purposes.
And in the back lot of a Walmart, they don't feel that.
So that's one of the things that IANA has provided is well lit canopy covered
stations that are attached to a facility that's open.
So not only can you go in and use the restroom, but it's also a safe location in a part of town that is going to be accommodating and staffed a good portion of the time on the times
that it's not staffed, at least you'll have QR code entrance into the facility and it'll have some form of security associated with it in that respect.
So they've definitely thought through what is basic.
facilities that a electric vehicle owner would want while they're charging because while you're there, you're going to be there for 20 minutes.
And one of the other things that they have found most electric vehicle owners want are pet friendly amenities.
And so their stations also always carry with them pet friendly amenity as well.
Yeah, I think that's a great call out.
mean, it's definitely adding not just the safety and security by being in a well lit area instead of being behind a business sometimes.
And the best case, I mean, I've, I've been doing this long enough and same with you, where you just see some sketchy things and it's just like, if I didn't have to charge, there's
no way in hell you would pay me to be here.
And so it's really great to just see that and that finally being taken care of and that experience and being improved and
In all fairness, I could definitely say the same with some gas stations I've stopped at over the years.
But I think the more proactive that these companies can be about that, the better.
So I think another thing that's really interesting about all this is we've been talking a lot about the infrastructure and the cars themselves, but usually kind of the connective
tissue of this is kind of that software layer.
And one of the things that I really love about IANA
Is they are making, they're trying to make it as easy really as it can be to charge at these places and several acquiring the app or some of these other experiences that really
are in my opinion, not just subpar, but can be really big turnoffs for people who are new to E.V.s or let's face it, there are people who are buying E.V.s that may not want to
Tesla or Riffian that is so tech forward and they just need something that they can get from point A to point B and having something that's as easy as swiping your card to buy
and charge.
versus having to pull out an app, download all this stuff, I think is another really welcome thing I love seeing with their approach to try and make this as easy as possible.
Yeah.
And that's one of the first things I asked.
There was an event at the Alpetronic headquarters and I could probably branch off into Alpetronic here in a second, but they're headquartered in Charlotte, North Carolina, not
in research triangle park, but in Charlotte, North Carolina.
And there was a test associated with Alpetronic hyperchargers with IANA representatives where they're doing a bit of a case study and focus group sort of thing.
And the first thing I asked when I had an opportunity to speak to someone at IANA is how's the app coming?
And answer was we don't have one.
There's no app.
they don't seem overly motivated either to get one.
So I think their intention is, as you referred, I recently got a Chevrolet Equinox 2024 EV 2RS.
And one of the first things I noticed when I went to go program in my ChargePoint operators is that the bottom is IANA.
It's Tesla Supercharger and IANA, right?
Those are the two that are kind of great out.
And I've got, you know, EVgo, EVconnect, ChargePoint, and then the other two, IANA and Tesla Supercharger.
I think what the intention is to just bake it into all the OEM center consoles.
So you don't, you know, why do I need an app?
All the OEMs are already going to have it baked into the center console.
And they just announced through a press release that through Hubject, they're going to be doing ISO 15118-2 in order for plug-in charge.
So it'll just be a...
You you show up, could either use your center console or you could just plug it in initially and automatically start charging that way as well.
So I don't even think I would say, you know, we're already into the point now where I forgot how many, think it's close to eight stations are open and they've got a hundred
under contract.
We've got all kinds of more ones spotted under construction and there's no app yet.
Nor is there any announcement of an app coming.
I would say we could very easily see July of this year before there's even mentioned of it.
Yeah.
And I think I'm pretty big when it comes to stop making apps, just make this easy.
I think plugin charges the solution and all you really need.
If you're halfway good as just to have a backend API that as you said, the infotainment of these, different automakers, or if you want to use a charge way or a plug share some other
app, specifically for just general EV.
Road tripping can pull from so, know, if the site is live, which ones are live and then even the speed of the actual chargers because to be honest with you, that's really, it'd
be ideal if a lot of people learned that, but there's a lot of things that'd be ideal if a lot of people knew about.
And I think people just want to have an easy, seamless, easy driving experience.
And I think this really is going to be the thing that really allows it is make the difficult technical part disappear into the background and make.
the actual road trip and drive easier for the driver.
Don't focus on trying to over-educate them on.
mean, it's hard.
I can't believe how many, and you see this Walter, how many actual press releases of these companies, some of them that even build the damn chargers that say kilowatt and versus
kilowatt hour and don't even get that correct.
So if the actual companies making these products aren't able to get that correct, why are we trying to push that onto the consumer?
Sorry, had to slip in a little rant there.
I do see that as well on occasion and I have to admit I occasionally brain fart them in my conversations as well.
Normally I'm pretty good at it now.
We did it out.
think it's one thing if you kind of say it as like you accidentally slip it or say something like that.
It's one thing when it's like a press release from a company making these things.
I would say kudos to Elon Musk for the foresight to predict that the need for the DC fast chargers was going to be where it is now.
he's constantly, he directed his team to constantly stay ahead of it with a economic component of the sale of each one of the Tesla vehicles in order to
put more charges in the ground as I understand that's how Tesla operates.
And I know right now he's a bit of a touch point for people.
don't watch the news.
I don't really know too much about what's going on.
purposefully prune news out of my life.
find it a bit of a waste of time, anyway, the other car companies have now got religion and they're now sinking.
mad money in it as well.
So the people with very large checkbooks are now writing checks to put DC fast chargers in the ground.
And that's really the whole point of what I do on my YouTube channel is let's get all the headlines away.
Who's spending money and where is this money going?
And the answer it, yeah, where, you know, if
The thought was that electric vehicles are going to cease being attractive and be pulled back and we're all going to go back to internal combustion engines.
There wouldn't be $20 billion and that's about what I'm tracking right now, about $20 billion getting ready to be invested into North American DC fast charging by companies
like BMW, General Motors.
These are car companies and they're taking money out of their balance sheet and they're spending it on DC fast chargers.
General Motors in particular is spending money in like three different ways.
They've got a partnership with ChargePoint where they're just basically giving money away.
They've got a partnership with Pilot Flying J saying, tell you what, we'll pay for the chargers.
You guys just host it.
They're like, okay.
You know, and then they've got a partnership directly with EVgo where they're like, tell you what, we'll buy these chargers.
You just put them in the ground and operate them.
And,
In 2025, we're supposed to see the first of what are known as flagship locations from the General Motors builds at EVgo with canopies, like canopies, security cameras, 20 stalls,
pull through all kinds of crazy stuff.
And so that to me is really the telling point of what the channel is trying to get across.
Plus the practicality of being able to see new charging stations in your area, because it's a very exciting time to be alive.
I don't know if anyone else is
catching the same thing that I am is that we're in the process of being a frog boiled in a pot of water.
It's happening all around us.
you know, it's Tesla doing their thing and then it's the OEMs doing their thing.
And then there's independent CPOs doing their thing, but everyone's doing their thing and it's happening.
It's happening very fast.
No, I think that's a great call out.
And these changes we're seeing really aren't, I think for a long time, it either felt really slow or linear.
And now it no longer feels like that is the case.
There's truly a clear rate of acceleration of all of these new sites going in, new products being brought to the market.
And then actually different parts of the market actually finding a way to implement this technology to make it as easy for the consumer to really kind of go to this step into
electrification.
And realized we could kind of talk about this and I I do love what your show does such a great job of of just like being straight to the facts of what happened last week where
things are and how this stands in the domestic market But I I think it'd be worth kind of talking with you now that we've kind of looked back about how much has changed over the
past year Just kind of moving forward.
I mean, obviously the big thing we've talked about this along the podcast too is just around the changes of Navi and good or bad I think either way is it something that could
help sure
But it's clear even with what we're saying that the acceleration fact, it's just happening either way with EVs and EV charging.
But I'd like to just kind of hear your kind of perspective and takes on how these things are changing.
What's really standing out to you, especially with all the noise and what is kind of that signal that you're looking to, to really highlight how this is moving in a positive
direction.
In 2023, the National Renewable Energy Laboratory did a study on what would be necessary for electric vehicle charging in the United States and Canada, assuming three different
trajectory of adoption rates with electric vehicles.
I think they called it the median, the high level, and the low level, something similar to that.
And according to them, really the inflection point is when
lower cost EVs start to become available, which is where we are now.
The reason why that's important is because, what is it, 60, I've got the number here, 65 % of DC fast charter utilization in 2030 will be used by people in multi-tenant dwellings,
assuming there's not sufficient level two charging at those places.
So what that means is that when you get lower cost EVs getting into the hands of people who live in apartments, the need for DC fast chargers dramatically increases.
So it's not linear.
And it doesn't track what they call the number of electric vehicles.
It's not a linear tracking.
What happens is when you get lower costs, all of a the need for DC fast chargers starts to dramatically increase.
And in my opinion, we're at that point now because not only
Do I have in my garage such an example of an inexpensive EV which is at the bottom of the Chevy line of vehicles like you'd walk into a Chevy dealership, the Equinex is basically
down towards the bottom of the line of options that you could choose from and you can get it in electric.
Not only can you get it in electric, you can get it in electric at a damn good deal.
However, later this year, get ready, buckle up, Chevy Bolt, Bolt V2 or Boltium, whatever you wanna call it.
is coming into the market and that's going to sell gangbusters.
Tesla is constantly advertising coming out with their low cost EV and Kia is coming out with their low cost EV and everyone's coming out with a low cost EV.
What that's going to cause is a very dramatic spike in the demand for DC fast chargers according to the National Renewable Energy Laboratories 2023 study.
Yeah, I think that is definitely a great call out about while we've been seeing count.
This is one of those great things about, think the EV space where you can't really make predictions looking on the data previously.
There is going to be a big change, especially when you get more of these lower cost EVs onto the roads.
And I think that's one of the really interesting things about this year that I'm hopeful for.
Hopefully Tesla releases the lower price thing that keeps saying that's going to come out this year.
I'm hoping the bull.
And this generation is also successful.
mean, it really does start kind of removing the.
And this is what's also so fascinating.
I think is right now even just take, let's take Evie's Atlas and go back a step, the automotive market, the average transaction for a new vehicle, gas electric, you name plug
in hybrid, you name it.
There's around $45,000.
I can't remember where it is exactly, but it's really damn high.
And this also kind of gives the point of why I think what's more fascinating these days is actually the used car market and seeing how electric vehicle adoption and that is kind of
playing out and really hope that that continues.
But by having so many more of these kind of lower cost EVs come to the market, it really starts going under not just the sale point for an EV, but pretty significantly under the
combustion engine, new vehicle price.
And really starts bringing, think one of the concerns that more in the traditional automotive industry have had is like, you really need a good national sales point of about
16 or over 16 million vehicles a year.
And with the starting price of so many vehicles getting that high, it is not only just forcing people out, it's also making the used car market more competitive and holding onto
vehicles longer.
So those vehicles are actually usually in worse shape.
So by having so many more of these entrants in the EV space kind of coming at this lower price point, one, it's kind of getting rid of a lot of the rumors and kind of a myth that
EVs are so much more expensive.
Can they be?
Yes.
But it's usually when you look at the product line and similar trends and all these things, especially performance wise, it's same pointer.
Yeah.
Right.
And also that for sure.
But I think that's one of the really exciting things.
I'm kind of curious what your thoughts, mean, so much of what you covers around DC fast charging.
What is some of the stuff that, mean, especially if you can't talk about multifamily and apartments, are there any things that you're seeing around kind of level two or even level
one charging or new technology in that space that has you kind of really excited for what's coming out and what's moving forward to avoid some of these headaches we might be
running into if we, we assume everyone has to go to DC fast charging at that lower price tier.
Well, I have heard that charging, I'm sorry, parking decks in certain municipalities have requirements for DC fast chargers to be put in place.
And there's also additional requirements for in the state of California for a certain number of DC, or I'm sorry, not DC, AC charging ports to be put in and AC charging ports
when there's net new apartment or multi-tenant dwellings getting put in place.
So they seem to be.
solving the problem that way, but those are only net new.
There's, you know, decades of existing that are going to be problematic and those people are going to need to find places to charge.
As far as level two goes, I'm a big fan.
I like to ABC myself, always be charging.
I find it is actually not
I'm not always charging though, because I typically always have a full battery.
go to and from work on a train and it's a very short commute to the station.
And I just don't really need that unless I'm going on a road trip.
I normally don't have to charge outside of my house.
And for people who are a multi-tenant dwellings who do, I think the thought of how much time you have to spend at a charger is exaggerated.
And I think that's a human.
reaction to is something that looks to be an inconvenience.
My personal opinion is not that much of time.
I've never, I mean, I can't say cause I've never lived in an apartment and lived with an electric vehicle that I wasn't able to charge at home.
but, they just put in a Tesla supercharger near an apartment block near us.
And the thing is always full and, you know, people fill up, they go to the Starbucks that's immediately attached to it.
They go to the restroom, they get themselves a cup of Joe and.
They go on into work or they're coming home and then they go home and eat dinner.
And, you know, it's basically 20 minutes out of their day maximum.
So, honestly, I don't know what the answer is.
According to the national renewable energies laboratory, that was going to be a good portion of the solution, but they didn't have a clear path for how to require it.
And I know in Norway, necessity is the mother of invention.
So once you have a problem, there's solutions that are presented.
In the case of Norway, came in the form of what's called right to charge laws.
I don't know if you've heard of those where apartment owners are not allowed to tell people they can't drape extension cords across the grass to charge their cars.
So what that does is it incentivizes the apartment owner to put in chargers in order to prevent cables from being draped across their property.
So I don't know if that's the solution or not.
And it definitely is something of concern, but I think people are going to figure out when they have a cost dependable car that will get them to where they need to go.
And they don't have fluctuations in energy cost in order to fuel the car.
And, you know, there's no Middle East war that will get away.
I do want to kind of bring something up because this is actually one of the things you do track on your show too is kind of the cost of DC fast charging as As you mentioned, yeah
for sure if you can charge at home or level one level two It's so much cheaper than buying for gas but we have been casting a lot of trends about the cost of fast charging and I'm
kind of curious on your thoughts of that of how you see that as a Do you think that short term?
Do you think that's just gonna be the new normal?
mean we get a lot of reports now people saying that
doing a road trip in the EV now is more expensive.
Obviously you start getting into the use cases like such as yourself and I even have a bunch of Tesla credits with my car where it's like, well, yeah, I've got a free charging
so I can kind of get around that.
But for those who don't and maybe as some of these incentives for the charging goes away, how do you see that playing out as far as, especially for like people in multifamily that
may have to DC fast charge?
Yeah, well, it's an unfortunate reality that taking a road trip in an electric vehicle costs significantly more than it does in a gas car.
That's just reality.
And the way I factor the math is if you have a 30 mile MPG car up against a electric vehicle that can go three miles on a kilowatt hour of energy, you take the cost of the
kilowatt hour and you move the decimal point.
one position over.
So if it's 50 cents per kilowatt hour, that's equivalent to $5 for a gallon of gas.
And that's the way that math works.
And so $5 for a gallon of gas, wow, that's pretty darn expensive.
Who would do that?
And the answer is people who could charge at home would do that because I only do that on road trips.
And when I'm at home, I'm spending $1.20 for a gallon of gas.
So most of the time that's what I'm doing.
So I seek out ways of
spending less and truth is I'm pretty cost conscious when I do road tripping.
And that's one of the reasons why I look for a CPO that has a membership.
The Tesla supercharger was the last one that I chose.
And I've recently chose to end my membership there.
And I'm looking for someone else, either electrify America or EVGO that has very compelling rates.
But recently there's been a bit of price war going on.
Tesla dropped their prices.
And recently Mercedes Benz announced a welcome pricing dropping down to 40 cents.
And they have the really fast 400 kilowatt Alphatronic hyperchargers.
And who else?
IANA is playing with some time of use pricing.
We're not really sure long-term what their pricing is going to be, but there looks to be some kind of time of use pricing coming out of them as well.
No memberships.
And I did ask them about that.
And I don't think they're going to have a membership pricing at IANA.
But there does seem to be some kind of price war, and I don't think Ribian got the memo because they went in the opposite direction really quick.
Maybe they were looking at it upside down.
They're like, we're supposed to drop our prices.
Anyway, so.
guess for any of those who are listening, what in their fiscal league, trying to pinch the pennies while charging or going on a V road trip, which are, is it Tesla or what, what are
usually the ones you've found with what you're tracking to probably be the most cost effective if you do get a membership with.
EV go or Tesla, one of the two, and it depends on who works for you.
In my particular case, because I have a Chevrolet Equinox EV with the charge port in the back of the driver quarter panel, it's a bit of a stretch to reach a V3 dispenser.
No, everyone says it's not a problem.
Don't worry about it.
Just note it's a problem.
I got to get damn close.
You know, if I sneeze at the wrong time, I'm hitting a bollard.
So.
For me, that's one of the main reasons why I dropped Tesla Supercharger memberships just because more than half the stations I go to are the shorter cables.
And I could do a sideways things, but then I'm taking up three stalls and I want to be polite.
So I could find other alternatives.
so cost consciousness, I'd say find a way of charging level one, which is a perfectly viable alternative.
Level one, you can get by just fine.
In fact, I hear most people in Europe and Australia who just travel around town typically only do recharging level one and only do DC fast charging when you're doing a road trip,
unless you can get a membership and charge off hours.
I think that's a great call it I've actually we've been having to use a rental for where we're living recently more often and I completely agree with you that while we've been
level one charging it's worked way more than I thought it would I think the bigger takeaway to me is this is why it's so important to have efficient EVs because once again
you start like you're kind of talking about if you figure you're going three miles per kilowatt hour then you're looking at five bucks a gallon
I've been doing pretty close to a little over four, which even blows my mind.
And I'm not trying to drive in the model three and even our why lately I was kind of surprised by.
Um, and I, and I think that's just such an underrated thing.
And I know Tesla's in there when kind of putting a focus on this, but it's something I would love to see more of the domestic, uh, EV automakers kind of doubled down on because
there is this kind of, uh, I agree.
They don't, Tesla's don't have the best charging curve right now.
I would love to see that improved as well.
But because they're so efficient, they actually kind of hack the system.
And while their actual curve and charging rate isn't that fast, it's because they can go so far on what's being put in.
And I'm sure this will change and we'll see this from more automakers.
and honestly, that was one of the things I was really, I didn't love the styling of a lot of Mercedes EVs, but that was kind of because they were putting such a high focus on aero
efficiency and trying to reclaim some of that efficiency in their vehicles.
that I realized there's a bounce with, but I think that's one of the big things that, especially for people who are going to be charging on level one or level two more, is such
an under, honestly, efficiency and range are my two biggest metrics for an EV.
Cause even to what we're talking about, DC fast charging makes up such a little, a bit of day-to-day life with an EV for most people.
Yeah, if you're cost conscious, looking for an efficient electric vehicle is definitely the way to go.
I understand Kia has definitely got some of that.
The direct coefficient is way down there, close to the Model 3 from what I understand.
And if you wish to look for a path to decreasing household budget by lowering your fuel costs, efficient EVs are an option to consider.
For me, I don't know.
I don't look at it.
That way, for me, it's really the overall convenience factor and reliability, as I said, just a rock solid car.
You you get in it and it starts, you know, I never have to worry about the mystery fluid on the floor of the garage on a Tuesday morning disrupting my week or whatever.
That's right.
a cool an issue, but yeah, that is pretty rare for an EVM.
Doesn't matter what is you're having a bad day at that point.
that is going to be a positive side effect that's going to dramatically increase electric vehicle adoption as a result of all the CPOs kind of trying to buy up against one of each
other.
ION has got these things called beacon rechargeries that are going to be like the really large 30 stall canopy.
every trimming you could possibly want in the center of a Metro somewhere, know, fireworks going off in the background, who knows what, is people are going to notice those, you
know, Walmart is putting DC fast chargers in their stores.
They've announced it and it's been kind of like a stale announcement for a while, but now they're actually doing it.
You know, it's actually happening and nothing can advertise that EVs are here to stay more.
then all day, every day, the super center in your neighborhood has eight Alpetronic hyperchargers in the parking lot painted with Walmart wrapping and cars sitting there
charging.
And then you go in and you get your sundries and on your way out, you're like, why don't I have one of those electric cars?
And then you start looking at it, the curiosity of it, and then you realize there's low cost EVs available.
I can come here and apparently Walmart's going to
have a pretty compelling rate for their charging network.
And Pilot Flying J, know, those are all over the interstate and people are all day, every day coming in to get gas and they look over and they see this big canopy, you know, and
it's advertising electric vehicles kind of covertly.
And there's someone there sitting there wiping their windshield with a windshield cleaner and charging up their electric vehicle.
And the person's thinking, why am I driving this car that keeps breaking down when I can get one of those electric vehicles?
And I think that's going to
that the pervasiveness of the expansion of DC fast chargers of many different flavors, like I saw on LinkedIn today, someone passing by a 40-sol Tesla supercharger that's
getting ready to be lit.
And he was all excited, so he put it on LinkedIn.
this thing where it's like a, yeah.
as just one little thing.
And I think that's always been true of the V's.
and it's continued to be, I think there's even been some people in the EV community that have voiced that the idea of getting butts in seats in EVs is no longer as important as it
used to be.
And I actually am more and more convinced that is far from the case.
It's actually quite the opposite.
think the more people get behind the V's, the more you just see that kind of snowball effect because then they become somebody on a cul-de-sac.
That has an EV their neighbors.
He's like, well, if Joe can do and Joe's kind of an idiot, I can do an EV for sure.
And I mean, that's a bad example, but that has traditionally been how this kind of starts.
And I mean, that was, that was a big part of the kind of tactic for a lot of the EV startups domestically.
And seems to be that that is probably still the most effective way for a lot of the players in the space to actually get EVs on the road.
And I think that's a great call out about Walmart.
mean,
We're seeing a lot of Costco's now even put in EV fast charters.
And I actually know a couple of the people who work at the, on the Walmart team for the EVs fast charters.
So we should probably have them monitor, but they're you're right.
They hit, there had been kind of a lot of talk kind of some press releases about it, but the people who are working behind that are serious people and want to see that kind of
roll out.
I think more of those things and seeing like, okay, maybe I don't have to drive to the Costco, get the gas and then go in the Costco and get whatever I need.
I can just park it, charge it, go and get Costco and get whatever I need.
And then by the time I leave, it's charged anyway.
There's, there is a little bit of a, depending if you're not able to charge at home and all this stuff and some of that mental kind of, gymnastics have to change a little bit,
but with the, just addition of having so many more of these places be so frequent and accessible and just the visibility of it, a lot of those worries start to go away pretty
quickly.
So I'm also very excited for that.
I guess I realize, is there something you want to add there, Walter?
Yeah.
cascading effect that's going to happen here, the people at Walmart are not doing this because they're civically conscious and trying to altruistically contribute to the greater
good of society.
They're ruthless capitalists is what they are.
They're trying to figure out how their brand can be distinguished from Amazon.
And one of the things that Amazon can't do is they can't put EV chargers in their parking lot because they don't have any parking lots, right?
And so if Walmart can...
drag more customers back to their stores by putting in an electric vehicle chargers and it makes economic sense.
They're not going to be the only ones who come up with this bright idea.
And then it just starts cascading to every, every major retailer out there realizes that it's called monetizing dwell time is I believe the term that has been coined for that.
And once it becomes an economic decision that has viability to it, it just starts cascading everywhere.
No, I think that's a great call out.
I realized we've kind of hit the one hour mark, but real quickly, Walter, I'm just curious for those listening.
Do you have any upcoming EV trips, road trips, yourself plan for the year or.
my wife does, she's a school teacher and spring breaks getting close.
So she's going to go, visit her friend in Florida.
And fortunately, pilot flying J is completely built out her route.
In fact, they built out so many stations that she'll be driving by free pilot flying J stations that she doesn't need to stop by because there's going to be another one 20 miles
down the road.
And, she'll choose the ones that either has canopies if it's raining or is closer to wherever she wants to go.
So, that's happening her.
Lyric is all fueled up and ready to go once the weekend hits.
That's when her spring break is available.
I kind of burned a couple of, I switched jobs and you only get, two weeks as the new employee in my industry.
So I don't have as much free time as I did previously, but, I do a lot of car camping.
That's kind of my thing and being able to, run the environment inside a car.
is something that's definitely advantageous in an EV.
So that's definitely something I'm passionate about.
So I do weekend, car camping trips and here in, North Carolina, there's plenty of picturesque spots to choose from.
No, that's great.
I definitely want to get the updates on that.
Have you done that yet in the Equinox or just the Lyric?
Gotcha.
car camping kit specifically designed for the Volvo XC40 recharge, which should be pretty portable because the mattress that I use, I heard someone say what you want to do because
you can get the custom mattresses for like Tesla has some custom mattresses and a few other have custom mattresses, but something called a nap mat that the kids sleep on when
they take naps.
It doesn't deflate.
It's the perfect thing in it.
fits well in the back of the car, so that's what I use in my car camping setup.
It should work pretty well in the Equinox.
Well, perfect.
Well, Walter, I just want to say thank you again for coming on this week.
Definitely want to talk with you and the rest of the coast to coast EV team soon.
I know, I guess when this goes live, we'll have just finished last night's episode.
Wednesday night.
Yeah.
So that, that'll be a fun conversation and there'll be links to that as well as Walter's own site and more in today's show notes.
But Walter, thanks again for coming on and we'll have to have you back on soon again.
It's been a pleasure.
Thanks, Chase.
That's a wrap on this week's Grid Connections.
Huge thanks again to Walter Schulze for joining us and breaking down the latest in electric vehicle charging expansion from Ionna Rapid Station Rollouts.
The price war is happening in fast charging.
It's clear that the EV landscape is shifting fast.
And if you're paying attention, there's never been a better time to drive electric.
Also, please check out last night's episode at Coast to Coast EVs where I, along with Walter,
We're guests discussing the current happenings in the world of electric vehicles and much more.
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Let us know in the comments and share this episode with a friend who's curious about electric vehicles.
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