[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:12] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. Dan Hammond. How are you doing? Reading any good books

[00:00:18] Dan: I am, I am. Well actually, it's very a aite or something for this, uh, for this, for today's. I think that's, is that the right word? It might mean opposite. I don't know. Anyway, I've read a couple of sort of hefty books, and I was in a beautiful bookshop and I went to the music section and I spotted this book that I've been recommended, which is a bit strange, but it, well, not strange for me 'cause I don't really listen to his music, but Phil Collins' autobiography, the famous drummer of Genesis, and I was recommended it because it's so honest and right from the start he's just, he's very funny. He's got a great voice in this book, but it's, it's just brutally honest.

[00:00:56] Dan: And apparently, I don't remember this, but he totally stuffed up at Live Aid and, uh, he just guts himself basically in front of you. So, but, but it's really, it's, it's a, it's a lesson in autobiography writing, I think. Just so Frank and, uh, yeah, it's, it's a and a fascinating journey that he's taken all through the sixties and, uh, you know, tracking that musical life. It's been great. So I'm really enjoying it. It's very, very relaxing read.

[00:01:24] Pia: And I have definitely found that I've, I, for quite a long while there, I couldn't read fiction. I could only read autobiographies that that was, I dunno. And, and choosing. Different scenarios people were in and different ways that, you know, different Know the respondent, I can't remember his name now, but the guy that went, climbing and got his arm stuck in a 

[00:01:42] Dan: Oh, yes. I, 

[00:01:43] Pia: his arm, his hand off in order to get, I read that one. And that actually this relates to our Guest, Ben Powell-Jones, who, um, is the. Was the former creative director of LadBible and I got into this podcast series. And Ben had guests. On his show that recounted the most extraordinary stories, and they were quite ordinary people. But it was a bit like, you know, the, the, there was a, a very curious part of you, I wonder what it's like to be a porn star or a dominatrix, you know, just, just casually, you know, or to have escaped out of, you know, North Korea or, you know, suffered facial deformity and manage, and manage that. There was a guy that had to suffer the consequences of giving someone a king punch, you know, one A one knock punch.

[00:02:38] Pia: And I was, last year I was renovating my house, so I would be, you know, painting and stuff. I would listen to these and I got so interested in really trying to understand what was the, what was the rationale for choosing these people, and how was it linked to the purpose of the show? Because LadBible, you know, back in, you know, 10, 15 years ago was not necessarily that broad-minded in its brand, and it was a bit more around young Uni students and, and generally sort of slightly child boy, you know, school boy humor. 

[00:03:13] Pia: But this was actually, there's some really deep conversations. So we are lucky enough to have him as our Guest and to really understand what the thinking is behind that and, and, um, and some of the sort of deeper insights. So let's, let's hop over and, and meet Ben.

[00:03:31] Dan: Can't wait. 

[00:03:32] Pia: And a really warm welcome to you, Ben.

[00:03:38] Ben: Thank you very

[00:03:39] Pia: Lovely for you to join us. Um, this is Ben Powell-Jones, um, former creative director from LadBible. You may well have heard, um, some of his podcasts from Extraordinary Lives around the world. Um, and he's now the co-founder of Strong Watch Studio. So, Ben, we put you as the interviewer into the interviewee seat today. So this is going to be really interesting to hear, hear your thoughts. And, uh, but before we do this, we, we, we put you into, into a small room with Dan Hammond, who grills you with a question just to warm you up, may feel really comfortable.

[00:04:18] Dan: exactly. Just get you really into the, into the groove. So, um, I have, um, shuffled the cards here at the start of, uh, yeah, sort of near the start of our new season. And I have a red card for you, Ben, which, you know, as a vintage podcast. It is to complete the sentence I instantly take against people who,

[00:04:42] Ben: Oh man. I mean it, is this gonna, if I say a real one, I feel like people listening might, I might lose 50% of the audience, so I'm tempted to sort of make a joke.

[00:04:51] Pia: might even up our numbers. You never know.

[00:04:53] Ben: It might do, yeah. I mean, you know, the same as everyone else, you know, rude to weight stuff, stuff like that. It's, uh, that's something that no one likes is it? But I'll tell you, I'll tell you what, I'll tell you a more interesting one. I don't like it when people. Uh, say yourself to sound formal.

[00:05:10] Dan: Oh, Ben,

[00:05:13] Ben: Do you know what I

[00:05:13] Dan: love, I do. I, I'm, I, we are, we you're my long lost brother, I think. Yes. Yes. And, and, um, and your, how are you? I'm fine. Yourself?

[00:05:24] Ben: Yeah. It's, it's, it's also if you, if for whatever reason you find yourself in a position where you are making a complaint and you're sort of saying, oh, I'm really, I'm really sorry, but the food was cold. It's like, oh, I'm sorry that that wasn't right for yourself, sir. That kind of like, yeah.

[00:05:39] Dan: Oh,

[00:05:40] Pia: And for the benefit of those who are listening outside England, this may sound a, like a completely un unintelligible conversation, 

[00:05:48] Dan: You always say one of, one of the things you remember about the uk, you know, UK by birth, but a long time in Australia, was the fact that English people talk about English and the language and have jokes about the uh, 

[00:06:02] Pia: Uh, well that's great that, that is a, um, what, what are Aussies sometimes do is that they put your name at the beginning of a sentence, so they go, so when they're answer, which is a similar thing, which is incredibly off-putting. it's sort of, because it sort of sounds like you're being told off, so they go well, Ben, and then they tell you what they're going to say. So, and it is sort of a bit like I've been here all this time. You don't have to use my name again. I'm, I didn't go anywhere. 

[00:06:33] Ben: One of just one of those little quibbles that we have, foibles.

[00:06:37] Dan: Yes. Yeah. And, and I'm learning as I get a bit older, I'm learning to get less agitated by it, but I'm, I'm delighted to hear that you get agitated by that as I do. Well, um, if yourself, if yourself doesn't mind, I'm going to move on to the next question.

[00:06:52] Dan: I'm so, so Ben, thank you for that. The great cracking start. So, um, but get us warmed up. You did well on that red card. Talk, how do you, you get to this, this day to day? Tell, tell us a little bit about your, uh, your, your life to date. Give us the potted history of, of Ben.

[00:07:07] Ben: oh God. Right. This is, um, this, this sort of length of answers changed rapidly from card to card.

[00:07:14] Pia: not for the whole 40 minutes.

[00:07:15] Dan: no, no.

[00:07:16] Ben: Sure. Yeah. Okay. Sure. Um, right. Okay, fine. Well, I'll just, I'll give you an answer and then you can hopefully in the edit make it more interesting if it drags on a bit. But I was born, um, in the northeast of England in a small seaside town, which we actually discussed, uh, early on, Dan,, 

[00:07:32] Dan: We did Beautiful Saltburn by the Sea. Amazing. Yeah.

[00:07:36] Ben: Beautiful, but with, without loads to do for a teenager. Um, so, you know, I took the usual route through college and stuff like that. And then at that point I decided I wanted to, I didn't really know what I wanted to do, so I went to Australia for a year. Um, had a great time there. Came back, went to university, still just followed to where my friends had gone. And then basically after university, again, I really didn't know what I wanted to do. And I ended up, Applying for a job as a office runner in TV, uh, a TV company in Angel. And I did that for a while and then sort of worked myself up through the, the usual route. Ended up in the B B C for a few years. And then at end of All Shine, where I ended up becoming a international format exec, I was working across their biggest format. So, you know, stuff like Master Chef, Total Wipe Out, um, big Brother also. Shows like, help my dogs as fat as me, which wasn't quite as successful. 

[00:08:34] Dan: fell, it nearly fell off the list there. 

[00:08:36] Ben: yeah. That, that, that was a one series, um, format, didn't, didn't sell internationally. But then, um, after, um, a few years at Endemol, um, I basically, I was contacted by, uh, LadBible Group who were looking to move from one-off viral videos into returning formats and IP. Uh, and what I'd done in my TV career at that point was all formats, just everything I'd done was formats, repeatable IP. And that's what LadBible really wanted, so I wasn't interested in the slightest, but you always take. The meeting, why not? It might meet someone interesting. And I met the two founders and they were interesting and the stuff they talked about was really interesting. And over about six interviews I went from thinking, so what? Take the meeting, go back to your day job, to thinking, oh my God, this is really interesting. There's something really different here.

[00:09:29] Ben: And it felt like quite a risk because I didn't know anyone else that had done that and there wasn't that many companies doing, trying to move from that kind of, Viral one-off nature to a, to a building out a bigger thing. But I decided to go for it. And um, so I moved across the LadBible Group and over almost five years I've built out there. I. Original content. Um, the, the celebrity content, the junkets, things like Snack Wars and First Impressions, the, um, the, the, the, the factual stuff, like the Minutes With, or The Gap, if anyone's seen any of that stuff, and the podcast, Extraordinary Lives. Uh, built up a really, really brilliant team. Like fantastic. Uh, I would say industry leading, certainly in the UK.

[00:10:17] Ben: And, I had a really great time, had a great experience, uh, learn learnt a lot, and then came to a point where I sort of thought, what's the next step now? You know, because you can, you know, I'm 42, I've got a child. I'm not gonna take many more risks now, but I thought I've probably got one more in me, one or two. And so starting a company was something that felt as mad as joining LabBible from a comfortable TV position it felt back then. And that leads us to three weeks ago. So sorry. I hope that was potted. I hope that was potted enough.

[00:10:51] Dan: That's great. It, yeah.

[00:10:52] Pia: I mean, it's really interesting because I really like how you, you didn't have one of those sort of very chronological career histories that you knew what you wanted to do from the age of seven, but you actually had to do quite a lot of other things in order for it to, to pop up, which I think is for many of us actually on that journey, sometimes you know, you don't, you don't know. And Dan and I are now into our third career. So where we started was absolutely not where we've ended up. And hey, if you are in your forties making a risk, no, no, no, no. We're, we're in our late fifties making a risk. So, you know, uh, there's always one more, there's always one more in you.

[00:11:25] Ben: Well that's good to hear.

[00:11:27] Pia: You said you spent five years in Japan, and I would imagine that was quite formative. What did those years teach you from a cultural perspective about working as a team and working with other people and connection? 

[00:11:44] Ben: I can sum this whole experience up in one anecdote, basically. When I, when I was in Japan, the first year I was in Japan, um, hurricane Katrina hit in America. And the same week, the same week, uh, where I was in Japan, the city I was in was hit by the biggest typhoon they'd had in 70 years. And when I woke up in the morning, there was, you know, cars were just overturned, trees were overturned, roofs were ripped off buildings, it was absolute devastation. Now, when I woke up that morning and looked out on the street, what I saw was people in all different types of uniform, whether postman, office workers, whatever, standing side by side, just moving trash into piles or like rolling cars back onto its side. When h Hurricane Katrina hit in America, depending on which news reports you watch, sure, but it certainly wasn't what, what the reports I saw, certainly wasn't that.

[00:12:36] Ben: And it had a big impact on me because I suddenly thought, I'm not having to go America, I think what it was representative of to me was that where I'd come from, I'd been brought up feeling as though I needed to, I needed me to succeed. I needed to do the best I could for me, and suddenly I was in a society, which was very much about the group and the team. Now, I've got also stories about times that went too far in Japan and things that felt uncomfortable and you know, losing a sense of self, whatever. But just at a baseline, there was something that I saw there where I thought, have we lost the ability to stand side by side and not, and do something because it'll be better for a load of strangers you'll literally never meet? Someone whose car that's been trashed in the middle of the road. You'll never know who that person was. But rolling their car over and being late for your job to do it, would we, would we have done that in England? And I, I didn't know if the answer was definitely yes.

[00:13:39] Ben: And basically that, that sort of anecdote is, is probably symbolic of the effect that Japan had on me, where I've always since felt that if you work as part of a happy team that are sort of leaning, leaning on each other, you will achieve way more than you possibly can if you're saying, come on guys, we've all gotta do this, we've all gotta do this but in your head you're going, but I'm gonna push for that promotion for me, and whatever everyone else gets is scraps.

[00:14:08] Ben: You know, it does take time, but you can surround yourself with people who will be genuinely happy if someone else gets a pay rise, and they don't, because it means that the pay rise is possible. And I'm not trying to say that from the point of view of being some kind of corporate shill where I'm saying that you should be grateful for your job and you shouldn't be asking for pay rise, you should all be push pushing for pay rise and all be pushing for more promotions. But I guess my point is that, I guess thinking about it like a sports team, Where, you know, you, you're, you're charging out onto the field and you're all like, come on guys, come fight, win, if one of you trips over, it's bad for everyone else. So help that person up and push them to the front while you're running together.

[00:14:48] Pia: Well, I think the, um, the, the, the Spanish Women's Soccer team is a pretty good example of that, that they're unified, standing behind one player. is a, yeah, pretty good example.

[00:14:59] Pia: So, I started listening to LadBible Well, in actual fact, it was really interesting. I started getting, As these things do, the algorithms on Facebook started popping up. For me and I thought, what on earth is a late fifties year old woman got anything interesting about LadBible Why is this? Thinking that it was something that was great when I was sort of back in the eighties as a student, and it was always what the perception of the brand was that, you know, it was, it was a little risque. It was a little bit more towards the male perception of how we saw things. And, you know, and was it also a little bit dated to, to like it, you know, given sort of where, where, where we've all grown and learned in the, in the last decade or so.

[00:15:44] Pia: But I did see this Extraordinary Lives and I started, you know, just the, again, some of the reels came through and I thought, this is really interesting. And I was, last year we, um, renovated our house. So while I was doing different bits of it, I was listening to you interview the most diverse range of people I have, I have ever come. It was a little bit like, I've always had a slight interest, a, a big interest actually in autobiographies. This was the podcast of ordinary people who had extraordinary experiences, and then you got to have a fireside chat. So where I want to start today is where was the genesis of this idea and what are you trying to achieve by having such a diverse range of people to be interviewed?

[00:16:34] Ben: Yeah, it's a great question. And you know, I think advertisers on our show also had the same question, because often when you're trying to get these kind of sponsors reads, they want something to be very familiar week to week. And if you're speaking to somebody who's escaped North Korea twice one week, and then uh, someone who was lost at sea the next and a, and a porn store, the next, it's quite hard for people to figure out, you know, what is this about? But I think you've nailed it, Pia, it's more, the clue was in the title. It's just trying to find people who had an incredible experience and give ordinary people like myself a window into that extraordinary life.

[00:17:11] Ben: Um, so where did it come from? Okay. I think your summary at the beginning about the company was, was really accurate. And one of the things that they wanted to do when I joined was they, one of the directions we could have taken. We sat down at the beginning of my time at LadBible and basically said, you know, discuss what we were gonna do. And one of the things you can do when a company is huge, like LadBible is do more of the same. It's massive, so it's successful, so you can do more of the same. But ultimately what you're doing then is serving more content to the same audience when you're already very successful.

[00:17:46] Ben: Now what you discussed at the beginning, Pia, is I think what a lot of people felt, which is that maybe if they were female and had a certain political disposition, maybe LadBible wasn't for them, and actually maybe they were meant to dislike it. So what I was interested in is thinking about how do we not try to supers serve the audience that are already invested in that platform, but how do we try and attract a different type of person?

[00:18:12] Ben: And, um, I'm very, very interested in, in people and you know, the things humans do and I watch a lot of content about that. And I really believe that if we could present people. That were interesting enough, then people, the audience that were already bought into LadBible would go on a journey with us and would, would, you know, would come along on that, on that, on that new direction, and we'd be able to start picking up people who might not have looked before, but might start to take a second look.

[00:18:46] Ben: So, We ha in lockdown, at the start of lockdown, we decided to commit to a show that we would be able to film within the guidelines. Um, and that was a show called Minutes With, and that was a simple studio based show where we had a talking head against a, a backdrop, and so each episode was called Minutes with ah, bababababa, minutes with a bodyguard, minutes with a stuntman, minutes with a ghost hunter, whatever it was.

[00:19:13] Ben: And the first series did, did really quite well, and we committed to that and we basically, at the point I left the company a couple of months ago, we'd run one every Sunday for 150 weeks. And then we decided that we wanted to look at podcasts because one of the things that we did at LadBible in, in LadBible Studios is what we call pre versioning. So a lot of companies verion content, so they shoot something and then they chop it up and put it on different platforms. But the thing is, if you film a YouTube video and then chop it up for five of the platforms, you've got one video that is perfect for its platform, and you've got five that aren't, 

[00:19:50] Ben: it's not 

[00:19:51] Pia: Bit Frankenstein. 

[00:19:52] Ben: a bit Frankenstein. Yeah. So what we did is we moved from Reversioning to pre versioning and that meant that before we made the content, we were thinking where, how is this gonna look on TikTok and on Twitter and on Spotify? And we wanted to push that as far as we could. And we were thinking if we can get something that can be audio only, as well as visual and work on all these platforms, that's basically the full house. That's everything. That means that the one piece of content is going live on every platform, and we really liked that idea of just being able to get something out everywhere and making it feel native to those platforms.

[00:20:27] Ben: So Extraordinary Lives was basically an extension of the Minutes with show, which was that with minutes with we'd, we'd bring people in and we'd, we'd interview them and then we'd quite heavily edit, edited down. We'd interview them over an hour on 90 minutes and get it to 20 minutes of Extraordinary Lives, we'd make a, a sort of hour long show, and, um, we put it out almost unedited. We, 'cause we really wanted people to feel that they were not being told a story that we wanted them to hear. We wanted them to be told the, to feel like they were being told a real story. And the producer's hand was very clear. You got to see the background of the set. You could see bits of crew members in the background, bits of cable trailing around.

[00:21:09] Ben: And then as to your point about, you know, why is it so broad? Well, What we were really interested in in the beginning is starting to figure out what people wanted to hear and see. So we wanted to make something with a, a simple strand down the middle. It had to be a really interesting story, but we wanted to be able to go anywhere so that if people really liked one topic, we could go back to that topic and start to kind of like hone in on what they wanted, what, what the audience wanted to hear.

[00:21:40] Ben: But what happened was that people did like the nature of it being quite amorphous. You know, like what we found was that an episode that was completely in one direction and completely different to a, the, the episode following it directly after, could both generate large views, so we decided to just play into that. And it was more that it was what, what, what I would love for people to feel by the end of the, the, of the episodes that they listen to is that even if they're not particularly interested in the title or the type of job or the type of experience, they trust that the podcast is gonna bring an interesting story, so they might get something out of it anyway.

[00:22:24] Ben: So the, um, as a shorter answer to your, to your question, why, why, why is it so broad? Uh, it's just because we started off thinking we'll hone in. Onto people, the specific thing people like, whether that be crime, army stories, you know, the sex industry, whatever it was. But actually there wasn't a hugely discernible difference between stories. People seemed to like the breadth of it.

[00:22:48] Dan: And you sort of touched on this, but what we talk a lot on, uh, along the way about organizations and teams having this sense of purpose and, you know, I was, when I searched on LadBible and purpose and what it was trying to achieve, 'cause I knew it had this, I think you, you'd mentioned that it had this shift, you know, you, you read things like, sort of about redefining what it means to be a ladd, an aspirational version of a Ladd, you know, getting into mental health and climate and all of these things.

[00:23:18] Dan: And, um, you know, that suddenly, I guess there's a commercial reason to broaden your audience, but it sounds like there was also this sense of how can we do some good in the world? What was that mixture? Where did that come from? And um, that the genesis of this shift, because, you know, interestingly by the way, just I'll let you answer, but all the dates, timestamps on things I've heard about this shift were 2017, 2018, which is when you were joining.

[00:23:48] Ben: Right, yeah. Well, I can't, yeah, I, I don't want to take credit for, well, I do want to take credit for all of it, but I won't take credit for all of it. 'cause it was, there were a lot of people involved in all those different sort of areas that you're describing. But I think, what I think happened was a bunch of different people were brought in in senior positions, and really those people were given quite a lot of autonomy. So the people were given KPIs, so you had your targets, but if the owners felt that was being achieved, then they were quite happy for you to push into a direction. And there was a point in time where it felt like there was a lot of kind of, directors and heads who had similar thought processes and similar directions that they thought were valuable to go into.

[00:24:31] Ben: And so one of the things I'll always be very grateful for was that really my, what they really wanted me to do was push the brand in a different direction and attract a new audience. And in all honesty, they didn't, they gave me a lot of autonomy. They didn't really, they were happy with how it was going. They were happy with the awards that were being won. And so, they were just fairly happy that that was happening.

[00:24:52] Ben: And I think it was, it didn't feel like when I was there, there was a, everyone was sat down and said, right, we now want to push into, you know, uh, this kind of wellness or things like that. But it did feel like people were given an opportunity who ran different areas of whether it be marketing or original content like myself to put forward what they thought they should do. And if they tried it and it worked, you know, people were rewarded. And, and also I, you know, I don't wanna do them down in terms of, they liked the idea that the company could be a positive force for change in society as well.

[00:25:24] Pia: And that, that would be my next question, which was what was the impact? I mean, obviously there's a commercial and there's a viewer's rating and there's a business element to this. But what was the personal impact for you interviewing? I. That, that diverse range. And what was the impact on your listeners? Did you get feedback? Did you, what did you start to see happen?

[00:25:44] Ben: We were lucky, because the first one we ever did was a series called The Gap. The idea of the gap is that someone from an older generation sits down, uh, with someone from a younger generation and they have a shared experience and the, through the conversation you get to see how society's views on those people have changed how people are. You know, viewed and treated in the past, compared to modern day.

[00:26:07] Ben: And the first one we ever did was, um, uh, an old, uh, world War II veteran and, uh, a young war veteran who was suffering from PTSD. And, uh, that was our most successful video of all time. So we, it was good because the first one we ever did was our most successful video, which meant that even after that we could have a few missteps, but we had that one going, oh, there's something there. But when we. Being in the room and watching that play out, I remember thinking why don't people have these conversations all the time in society, and why don't we watch people having them?

[00:26:41] Ben: Like watching two people who gave their lives to war, talking about the effects it had on them, and thinking that that's happening right now today in every country around the world, it's like, It's not like you even have to say, you know, oh, so war's bad, isn't it? It's just getting information from people who lived through an experience. I just remember thinking like, this is absolutely amazing.

[00:27:05] Ben: And then we pushed into that, and then one of the next ones we did was two addicts. One that had been, uh, an al uh, an an alcoholic and um, was a recovered alcoholic and then a younger person who'd been addicted to sort of club drugs in modern day things that you take in the clubs and was just, just, just recovered. And, um, that was amazing because in the YouTube comments, they just started spiraling in the, into people talking to each other. People saying like, oh my God, I can't believe I watched this. I, I almost relapsed and I watched this. And then someone underneath writing, this is amazing to read. I've been there before. If you ever need to per, DM someone, just message me on YouTube. I'm happy to talk to you. And I, and it just started spiraling.

[00:27:49] Ben: And then the thing is we had, I brought someone over from TV who is like, was incredibly talented and also very good at understanding people. And we had this, we, we had this team around that were going, this doesn't have to be some sort of passion project. This is also fascinating and if you like documentary, you'll enjoy this. And so it started to grow and spiral into this thing where there was a group of us making this content and we were doing very lighthearted stuff too. We were doing, you know, meeting all these different celebrities, your Arnold Schwarzeneggers, Billie Eilishes, but the factual side of it. Um, we had a group of us that were taking turns doing the interviews, kind of one in one off.

[00:28:31] Ben: But if you watch the series of minutes with, 'cause that's our longest running one, that's the reason I keep coming back to it, you'll see the names of the producer keep cycling round and it's either me or Mari, marianna I think, has done the most and or Danny, who's, who was one of the, who was the first guy that I brought across. And more recently there's a, an Australian girl called Erin. And because there was three or four of us cycling through these very, very heavy interviews and topics, you had a kind of group where you could constantly talk about it.

[00:29:01] Ben: So I think there was periods where there was one I did, which I'm not gonna name, it was a very heavy topic and afterwards the person was very troubled by having re relived some of the, um, events. And I, I, I, all of us in that group would always stay in touch with people as much as they wanted to afterwards. And I ended up talking to that person quite often, and it was quite, it took quite a toll. And I know that the other producers and directors had similar things. But what really helped was that you, you had each other to talk to.

[00:29:37] Ben: So, It was quite hard because when you're doing something that raw and you're getting that deep into a story, you're kind of in uncharted territory, or we certainly were. Um, but having a group around you that were doing the same thing and believed that it was for, you know, when I, being completely honest, when I was in tv, I quite often felt like no matter what the project was, I worked on a couple of projects when I was in my younger years in TV and I still felt like it was being done for entertainment. So even if you were doing quite a heavy topic and subject, it was like you were going to get the thing that had been promised to the commissioner that you'd get.

[00:30:18] Ben: So it wasn't honest in the sense that like I, you know, I was once told, uh, going into an interview so the director couldn't attend the interview and I had to go instead. And I was told by the director on the phone, you have to make him cry. 

[00:30:35] Pia: Oh. 

[00:30:35] Dan: my word. 

[00:30:36] Ben: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, so I didn't like that. But when you go into a conversation where you know that what you want is just the honest truth of someone's opinion, and the thing that was great about LadBible was it was such a huge platform that people were grateful to be able to have this voice that was being projected out, um, it became, it made it all a lot easier. But it was, it was, uh, you know, there was some intense times. It was, it was having the te it was having the team around. That's what made it work.

[00:31:09] Pia: And it's interesting. You, you talked about the power of the conversation, and that degree of honesty and certainly the work that, that we do working with teams and with leaders, there appears to be a leaning towards being interesting as opposed to being interested. And I think that's something that I noticed a lot around Extraordinary Lives. It was, it was that degree of curiosity, that honest curiosity, and being really interested in such a broad range.

[00:31:46] Pia: And I felt that was a really interesting role model because sometimes social media teaches us to judge and not to seek and find out, whereas a pure conversation, the power of it almost tracks back into our sort of natural DNA to want to connect.

[00:32:04] Ben: I'm really pleased that you felt that and, um, I mean, that you are right in that it was an intentional thing and it comes from two very simple reasons. One is that I don't like watching, uh, interviews where I feel like the interviewer wants to talk. Because that's not why I'm ever, I'm never ever tuning in for an interviewer. Like even if there's interviewers, I like, they're not why I'm watching the product. And the second thing is there's just no world where if I'm sitting down opposite a North Korean escapee, I can have anything interesting to say.

[00:32:37] Ben: So I, the, the, but what I did, what I did have is, by that point, several years of reading comments on videos and understanding when viewers are either confused or, or will have an opinion. So what I saw my role is as is the voice of the viewer. So if I didn't understand any, something I knew that the viewer wouldn't, so therefore I just asked them to clarify. And if they said something that I felt was hypocritical, I never felt like it was my job to to challenge them on it, but if I knew that there'd be a hundred comments of people saying, but hang on a minute, they said that a minute ago, then I should ask that question because then that can tie off a confusion for reviewer later.

[00:33:21] Ben: So ultimately, I just, it, it, I could have been off camera, but we decided to do it on camera, so I didn't see myself as a host in the traditional sense. I saw it as a con, continuation of what myself, Mariana, Danny, and Erin had done on the previous interview shows. But this one just happened to be on camera.

[00:33:38] Ben: And actually originally it was gonna be an alternation between myself and Danny, the other producer we were gonna do one off, one on, but he was sick for the week of the first shoot. And then after that, the, yeah, well, yeah, I think, I mean, I think he's probably secretly glad to be honest. But the, uh, he was, he, he, he was busy enough, he had a lot of work. Um, but after that, the, um, the company we will work with to promote it and get sponsors basically said it works out better if you keep the same host. So we just went with that.

[00:34:09] Dan: there's some deep stuff that you've got into there. And, uh, you've also mentioned Snack Wars, this is, you know, where a celebrity eats a snack from foreign country and comments on it. I mean, you know, that in itself as an idea is, so if I was told that that was interesting, I would think I doubt it, but having seen a couple is so compelling, um, and you can't not watch it.

[00:34:30] Dan: What I wanted to touch on, and, and, and I know this is, is the creative process. Where, where do the ideas come from and what's the climate in the organization and the team that, that, that allows those things to bubble up?

[00:34:44] Ben: Yeah, well we, the originals team just had full autonomy for idea generation, ideation, generation directing, producing, editing, and putting out, and then we had to be responsible for how it did. So if it did badly, that was an issue. If it did well, that was great. Um, with a lot of those celebrity pieces. What was so fantastic about coming from TV is when you work in development in TV, almost every idea you come up with, someone says to you, yeah, it's great, but it'd be a good segment on a bigger show. So, so, so you just basically have this library of ideas in the back of your head, which were like little things that weren't big enough for a TV show, but in terms of a sort of eight minute social media video. You know, and we tried loads of stuff that didn't work as well, but, you know, Snack Wars, eating food on the internet, the versus thing, that was just one that people, people liked. And I, I, I loved watching that kind of content anyway.

[00:35:38] Ben: The other one that we did that was successful was First Impressions, which was just cards on the table, the celebrities pick one up, they have to do an impression, it says on the card Arnold Schwarzenegger or whatever, and they have to do an impression and the celebrity on the other side has to guess it. It's that simple. But the thing that's great about it is people doing a good impression is quite fun to watch and people doing a terrible impression is even better. So it's just these kind of little cycles. Yes, win-win.

[00:36:03] Pia: So you are now moving on to a, an exciting new phase, with strong watch studios. what's the vision you wanna create there, Ben?

[00:36:11] Ben: So it is an exciting new chapter. It's also a terrifying new chapter. But, um, I'm working with a guy, a co-founder, a guy called Tom, who's really, is very generous of spirit and also has that kind of sense of, um, wanting to. Push through together, do things together. It feels like, it feels like that kind of like team, sense of team, bring people up. And we're really looking to do what we did at LadBible again, but ultimately, I guess on a bigger scale, eventually, you know, it'll be hard to get, we'll we won't be as big as LadBible as a company, but in terms of the original content and Lad Studios, which was a bit Tom and I were running at LadBible, he was the, um, strategy director and I was a creative director, expanding on that. And we still wanna tell these amazing stories. We still wanna meet people and sh shine a light on people's stories, open a window to worlds that the average person doesn't get to experience, doesn't see exist.

[00:37:06] Ben: But we also want to help. From a business side, we want to work with clients who are, you know, I spoke earlier about having a TV background. My co-founder Tom, also has a TV background. He was a TV commissioner. I was a exec. And we wanna look at how we unite tV and social video, two industries we've now worked in and like, very much, and I think historically those two things were seen as rivals. And when we're in TV, people certainly were disparaging about social video saying it was trash and throwaway and, you know, dogs slipping over on ice, which, you know, a lot of is, and on the other side, um, you know, quite often in social video, people would sort of be disparaging about TV and say it's old fashioned and blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:37:50] Ben: But the thing is they're both great. They both have an audience. People like them very much. I think they used to be very different, and they used to feel like two industries. But moving forward, they should start feeling like one industry because it's all distribution, it's all broadcast. It's. Letting people find content they want to watch. So we should be trying to, wherever they want to watch it, whenever they wanna watch it, whether it's on their phone, whether it's on a smart tv, a laptop, whatever. Then we should be distributing that content all over the place. And that's ultimately what Strong Watch Studios is trying to do, unite those two worlds, while at the same time building up a, a load of, um, brands of original content that hopefully people will find interesting.

[00:38:33] Dan: Ben, I'm sure. Having listened to you and talked to you for 40 minutes or so, I'm sure they will. And um, it's been such a pleasure to have you on the show and find someone who's out there with this, you know, and that with this We Not Me mindset and um, and also to sort of uncover some of these things that have happened to a big brand like LadBible that's genuinely made the planet better in that direction. And I'm sure your, your future, um, Your future travels will continue in that direction. But I just wanted to thank yourself for joining us on

[00:39:10] Pia: You had to, you. It was

[00:39:12] Ben: Good 

[00:39:13] Pia: well until 

[00:39:14] Ben: Good callback. Good callback.

[00:39:17] Dan: But no, sincerely, um, it's been a, a real joy to have you on the show. Ben, thank you so much for the time today and um.

[00:39:23] Ben: Thanks so much for having me guys. It was really nice to be, uh,

[00:39:26] Pia: it's been wonderful. Great conversation. Thanks,

[00:39:29] Ben: great to be asked. Thank you. 

[00:39:34] Dan: The thing that really struck me, I, I, I still really thinking about this quite a lot, is the, the sort of, when we talk about that purpose, you can to, to us it was clear that they have made a shift, LadBible made a shift, and that they, um, they were doing some really good things for the world, sort of harnessing that ability to produce amazing viral content for good. But interesting, the birth of that was very, was seemed to be more pragmatic actually, that they've got the opportunity to do something and they were given that space and they went into that space without, we didn't hear from Ben. Oh, we really wanted to, you know, create a better world through our content, even though it was, it was really clear and from what they were doing that it was. I think some of the messaging from coming from LadBible at the time was definitely around trying to expand that idea of the Ladd to be a bit more constructive. So I, it, it was definitely in their hearts, I think, but it was sort of almost a pragmatic commercial drive that they were allowed to take that, put them into these, took them to these new spaces.

[00:40:38] Pia: I agree, but I, and what makes commercial sense in media is how, is how many either eyeballs you've got on content or you're listening to things. And what's really interesting is, is they had 150 weeks of every Sunday of that series, A Minute With, and that was ordinary people with amazing stories. And that generated a, I think that was quite organic, that generated an interest. And it shows that however much we sometimes think we're not, we are so connected to what other people are doing and, and what I think the Extraordinary Lives did was actually dig deeper into that and build out that authenticity and, and build our level of curiosity because the guest just got really, really interesting. And with the types of people that you may never have had that opportunity to sit down and have a fireside chat. Haven't talked to many porn stars in my life as yet, but that was a good opportunity to do so and that broadens your mind.

[00:41:41] Dan: Yes, definitely. And I think they did that. And I think that you, but it's, it's heartening that you can get a lot of viewers and listeners by doing non-constructive things, by being divisive actually. So they, you know, and I think that's probably where they took a turn. And I, I think also if we think about leaders out there, teams, there's a bit where, you know, you're trying to do good, but you, we've all gotta think about ways to, to do that in a, in a way that's going to be compelling as well. Um, people don't like eating too much spinach, so, uh, they've done a, done a clever job, I think they did a really clever job of making it compelling while actually taking their audience in this direction.

[00:42:24] Dan: And I think the, you know, Ben's story about his time in Japan at the time of katrina and his view that there was sort of the reaction was totally different, was such a, a revealing conversation, wasn't it? To say that he saw this real community spirit and the standing side by side, it clearly, this is something that Ben is on a mission to, um, to, to achieve, which was, which was really heartening.

[00:42:49] Pia: And he also talked about the power of conversation and sort of like the, you know, almost the. Dilutive effect of social media, which as you say can be divisive. But they took people and made a powerful conversation. Because Ben appears to be an, um, an incredibly humble guy, but his powers of questioning and curiosity and the gentle way that he got some pretty interesting information outta people was, was really powerful. And you know, it, people always used to, always used to joke about my dad that, you know, he could find out more about my friends in five minutes than you know, most other people could. And that's a power that Ben has, and that's a big lesson. That, that being interested and getting information about pe rather than making a judgment, which is a lot of the things that we do.

[00:43:42] Pia: So that's a key part of leadership. That's a key part of being with people. And I think that's what we all actually, even though we may not be able to articulate it, we find that really appealing. We kind of, that's core to us.

[00:43:55] Dan: You're so right. His, um, and he said that he represents the listener, and it really did. I also think there's something about Ben that he, he's able to do that. You know, you sometimes watch these. Podcast and there's some big star doing this thing, and there's sort of an agenda, whereas I think Ben really was our voice in those things. And, and I think you, as you say, what we can take away from this is the power of conversation and the power of questions. And he, he, it's well worth listen in Extraordinary Lives to hear how he. Sort of gently has this conversation, which I think we would love to have with these people. And he sort of hosts that for us. It's, um, it's really good. I think any leader can learn from, from this experience that, uh, that, yeah, you say power of conversation. Absolutely wonderful. 

[00:44:40] Dan: But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes on squadify.net, under Resources. If you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:45:01] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.