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Right before the world shut down
for COVID, I was at a use of Force

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Experts conference at the Tactical
training center in Vancouver.

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That's where I first met today's guest.

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I was impressed with how clearly he spoke
about pressure bending perception, memory,

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reshaping events, and confidence drifting
ahead of competence when training Mrs.

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Reality.

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That perspective was forged over
decades of experience where he rose

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to the rank of inspector in a large
Canadian police service, working

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deep in training and instructor
development, as well as his role at

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Force as a force science instructor.

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He now hosts the Trainer's
Bullpen podcast, where he explores

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decision making perception and
human performance under stress.

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Welcome to the Silver Corp
Podcast, Chris Butler.

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Thanks for having me on.

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It's an honor to be here.

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Well, the Honor is mine.

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Let me tell you that much.

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You're a very humble individual.

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I really enjoyed listening
to you talk that now.

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When I was going back, right, I think
we were in the very last class that the

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tactical training center was putting on
right before everything shut down, and

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they kind of pressed it a little bit
further so we could finish that class and

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then bang, world shut down, wasn't it?

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I

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believe that's exactly accurate.

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As I recall, it was hours, and it
may have actually even been while I

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was still at the airport in Vancouver
preparing to fly back to Calgary, that

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everything was just collapsing, you
know, a minute by minute at that time,

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as you can recall, that was occurring.

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So yeah, that was
interesting time, wasn't it?

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It sure was.

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And you know, a lot's happened since then.

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So you're, you're now retired, you've now
got the trainer's bullpen, which is a,

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uh, successful podcast where you talk to
people all over the world about training

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and the experience and expertise that
you've acquired over many, many years,

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I think was what, 20 years as a, uh,
use of force expert behind your belt.

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Is that, is that correct?

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Yeah.

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Well, that's close.

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I mean, I think I'm, I'm going on to, uh.

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25 years of doing expert witness work now.

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But, and, and I appreciate the comments
about, about being an expert, you

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know, but somebody once told me that,
you know, what an expert is, is it's a

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drip under pressure, you know, expert.

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But, um, yeah, I started the, I
started the trainer's bullpen because,

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um, what I realized, you know, so
my passion is in, in training, law

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enforcement, military security.

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Um, and what I realized is that the
more that I started to really dive into

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the research around human performance
and the best pedagogical or learning

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approaches for designing and delivering
training to make, make our people

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perform well, like you said, in those
very high consequence, rapidly unfolding

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type of ambiguous incidents, um.

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I don't, I realized that I, I knew very
little about actually how to do that.

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And when I started to explore other
industries, so to go interdisciplinary

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into, uh, military aviation, aerospace,
uh, combat medicine, um, all of these

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other domains that for years and years
and years have put a lot of research

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into how people actually learn and how to
create great learning environments for.

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Superior retention and transfer of skill.

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What I realized is law enforcement pretty
much did it exactly the, the opposite.

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You know, if you and I were to, to have
sat down and said, Hey, let's put our

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heads together and come up with, let's
come up with the training, that could

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be almost completely the inverse of what
the research says we should be doing.

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That that's what I realize.

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You know, and, and I, I realize
I'm painting with a broad brush

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here, so I'm not, I don't wanna
be dogmatic sure about this.

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And there are pockets of trainers that
are doing phenomenal work who are all

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over the research and have reformed their
training and, and it's just wonderful.

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But, um, we still have a ton
of work to reform our pedagogy

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in, in law enforcement.

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It's sort of, uh, I often refer to it
as the occupation that research forgot,

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well, how were people training?

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And how do you see training in
the future being more successful?

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Well, maybe I'll just, if I could
back up a bit and just talk about

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before I came into law enforcement.

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So I was a search and rescue technician in
the Rocky Mountains as a, uh, park ranger.

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And so I actually got hired as
a, as a park ranger because I was

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a fairly competent mountaineer
and, and technical rock climber.

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And it was just at the time when
here in Alberta and Canas country,

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they were standing up their own
search and rescue capability.

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Up until that time, the government
of Alberta had to rely upon federal

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parks on park wardens to come in
and do all of our technical rescues.

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And the government decided
that that was enough of that.

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Um, they, they wanted to
have their own capacity.

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So I just was in the right
place at the right time.

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I'm probably one of the very few
individuals who ever got hired with

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meaningful employment because you
could, you were a, a rock climber.

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But, um, what I realized, so going
back to your point about training,

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is the six years that I was in
search and rescue and I eventually

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got put in charge of, of actually.

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Teaching other SART techs,
um, search and rescue skills,

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technical search and rescue skills.

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And when I got asked to do
that, I thought, well, yeah,

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I'm, I'm an expert at this.

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Like, I, how hard can this be?

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Like I, I'm, I was very confident
in my own ability that I was very

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on top of my game personally.

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And so I thought Sure.

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How hard could that be?

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And um, you know, in, in hindsight, I
realized the ignorance of that statement.

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Because what, what the reality is, is
you can have somebody who's exceptionally

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personally competent at a skill and
that has nothing to do with your ability

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to actually create meaningful, deep
learning environments for other people.

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Mm-hmm.

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To learn well in.

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And so, but at the time I didn't
realize that disparity and,

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and my foolishness almost got.

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Uh, several search and rescue people
killed because of human error with a

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rotary wing aircraft on a technical
rescue where errors were made, and those

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were errors that were, um, you know,
we don't rise to the occasion, we fall

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to the level of our, of our training.

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And so,

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mm-hmm.

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That was a wake up moment for me, Travis.

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It really caused me to, um, it
was a painful wake up moment.

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Um, fortunately we didn't lose anybody,
but it caused me to really begin to dig

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into the research that was out there
around human performance, around learning.

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And I started to shape the
training for our SART techs

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in a radically different way.

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And I did that for the last four years
of, of my, uh, being a SART tech.

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And then when I came, uh, so I
left and, uh, that, and I joined

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the, the Calgary Police Service.

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And when I came to Calgary.

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I, I thought there must be something
seriously wrong either with me or

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with this training, because in the
academy at the time, it was all very

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heavily scripted, technique based.

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So you would have, you would stand on a
match, shoulder to shoulder with other

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officers, and you'd take a training
baton and you'd hit a training bag and

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you'd practice take downs with, you know,
all very technique based, with no real

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context to it, no meaningful resistance.

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And the whole training
was, was really like that.

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And I thought, this is the bizarrest
thing I've ever experienced.

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Um, and then when I, I, so I, I went
through the academy and, and at the same

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time I was also, um, taking martial arts.

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So I had this, what I,
what I call my, I had this.

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Cognitive schizophrenia going on because
I'm taking mar these, this martial

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arts training, which, and I had for
several years before that, which was

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all richly realistic with meaningful
interactions between other combatants.

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And, you know, that's where the pressure
testing really proves itself, right?

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Is when you're on mm-hmm.

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You're actually fighting with
somebody who's not going willingly

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and who's giving you resistance
and force and violence back.

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Um, and then, so I had that
all going on, and then I'm in

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the academy getting this really
ridiculous, rote mechanical, linear,

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technique based type of instruction.

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And I, I just realized this
is, this is terribly wrong.

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Terribly wrong.

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Mm. And um, and of course the research
bears, bears that out 100% is if you

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want people to perform well, if you
want retention and transfer of good

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performance, good skill in the real
world, which is in policing, for

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example, like law enforcement, is
what's called a non-linear environment.

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It's a non-linear performance environment,
which simply means it's ambiguous,

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it's unpredictable, it's not scripted.

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It requires constant perception,
attention, decision making, adaptability,

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that's a non-linear environment.

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And if you want good performance
in that type of environment, your

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training needs to be replicate.

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That all the way through, it needs to
be a non-linear training environment.

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So that's a long way of saying, you
talked about the trainer's bullpen.

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That's the, the origin of that is
because I realized that, that what's

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happening is all of this amazing
research is being done around the world

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into all different types of domains,
but also including law enforcement.

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But it seems that the implications of
that research were not getting driven

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down into the field at the academy level,
at the agency level, where trainers

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could understand the implications of
the training and then actually apply it.

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And so that's how the
trainer's bullpen started.

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I, I was hoping that this would be a forum
for being able to have those discussions

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where I could interview honestly some
of the world's best high performance

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human performance coaches, researchers.

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People who have, they're academics
who do this for a living.

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Mm. And actually research this
and publish textbooks and peer

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reviewed journals and all that.

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And I've, I've just had some of the
most incredible conversations with

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these people and, uh, and also met some
amazing friends along the way, which is.

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Awesome.

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Well, I got, I gotta imagine from like
a government institution standpoint,

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who, which is generally highly concerned
about liability and public perception.

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They'd like to have something that's
paint by numbers step by step, which

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tends to lead towards a linear approach.

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If this, then that, did they
pass this qualification?

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Did they, can they strike properly?

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Can they hit X number of rounds
with whatever round accountability?

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But there's, like you're saying, a
disconnect between meaningful resistance,

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which brings to mind, Mike Tyson's
famous phrase, everyone's got a plan

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until they get punched in the face.

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Right?

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All of a sudden the plan disappears.

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That's gotta be a difficult corner
to square inside a large government

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institution that wants to check
these boxes for liabilities sake.

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And you're saying, well, hold on.

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There's gonna be some nuance here,
and try to introduce that nuance.

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And I guess if I were to extrapolate
a little bit further, that

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level of liability would only
be exposed at a broader scale.

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The more that conversations happen,
like on the trainer's bullpen where

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they turn around and say, well,
you know, the knowledge is here.

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Why aren't we doing

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this?

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Yeah.

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You know, the old saying,
ignorance is bliss.

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Right.

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And, um, you're, you're not, you're not,
you're not culpable until you're aware.

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And once you're aware, now you're
responsible for making the changes.

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Right.

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And I'll, I'll often say to, to.

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Trainers who, come on.

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We have a, a five day methods of
instruction course where we spend five

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days, 40 hours going through all of
this type of research and talk about the

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implications and give them ideas how they
can change and improve their training.

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And usually by about Wednesday morning,
there's a depression that sits in

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across the whole class because the,
and the comments are usually like

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this, they realize that what they
have genuinely believed that they

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were doing the best for their people.

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And this is, this is the thing,
like, I wanna make sure I say this,

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Travis, is I've yet to meet, to meet
a trainer whose motives and passion

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have not been absolutely pure, right?

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Like they want to do what's best
for agreed their, they want to do

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what's best for their people and they
think they are doing what's best.

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And, but usually by Wednesday
on the MOI course is there's

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this, this fog of depression that
sets in because they realize.

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That how far out of sync the
current training practices are.

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And, and here's what I say
to them in that I said, look,

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look,

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uh, here, here's all you're responsible
for because you can't unscramble the egg.

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And I tell them, I said, look, the pain
that you're feeling right now is the pain

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that cut me straight through the heart.

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So you have, you have, uh,
understanding peer here with

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00:14:30,930 --> 00:14:33,300
you, but here's the reality.

227
00:14:33,330 --> 00:14:37,380
What you're accountable for is
what you do with what you know.

228
00:14:37,380 --> 00:14:39,990
So once you know better, do better.

229
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:40,800
Right.

230
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,050
And that's, that's all
I'm asking you to do.

231
00:14:43,050 --> 00:14:47,310
And I like to, I don't know if
you're familiar with, uh, Covey's

232
00:14:47,310 --> 00:14:52,740
work, but Covey, um, in one of his
books, he talks about a sphere of

233
00:14:52,980 --> 00:14:55,410
influence versus a sphere of concern.

234
00:14:56,130 --> 00:14:59,910
And to your point about how, like it,
you said, it's, it's a, it's a big.

235
00:15:00,465 --> 00:15:05,564
Circle to, to square or something like
that, or, uh, use a an analogy like that.

236
00:15:06,405 --> 00:15:08,505
And Covey, Covey would say this.

237
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He'd say, 'cause he, here's the human
nature thing that we want, we often fall

238
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prey to, is when we see the enormity of
the change that needs to be made in order.

239
00:15:21,465 --> 00:15:25,515
If we really wanna square all
of our training to the research,

240
00:15:25,845 --> 00:15:27,975
we have to flip academy models.

241
00:15:27,975 --> 00:15:30,435
We have to change in the United States.

242
00:15:30,435 --> 00:15:35,325
They have to, they would have to change
post uh, training standards in Canada.

243
00:15:35,325 --> 00:15:38,085
We would have to change
provincial training standards.

244
00:15:38,085 --> 00:15:41,535
Like it's an enormous heavy lift to do it.

245
00:15:41,535 --> 00:15:43,275
And I'm not saying it's not worthwhile.

246
00:15:43,455 --> 00:15:44,595
It is worthwhile.

247
00:15:44,955 --> 00:15:49,275
But the danger is, is we can sit
back and just be overwhelmed,

248
00:15:49,665 --> 00:15:51,285
Travis, by the enormity.

249
00:15:51,810 --> 00:15:53,700
Of the change that's needed.

250
00:15:54,180 --> 00:15:54,210
Mm.

251
00:15:54,270 --> 00:15:58,050
But then Covey would warn us, he would
say, when you do that, what happens

252
00:15:58,050 --> 00:16:03,510
is then what you have in your, in your
circle of influence, your circle of

253
00:16:03,510 --> 00:16:07,620
power, that you can make changes in you.

254
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:13,410
Nothing gets done because you're so
overwhelmed by being concerned in what he

255
00:16:13,410 --> 00:16:16,110
calls your circle, your circle of concern.

256
00:16:16,110 --> 00:16:21,810
So, you know, the thing is, here's what,
here's what trainers just need to focus

257
00:16:21,810 --> 00:16:24,090
on, is what do you have control over?

258
00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:25,290
What can you change?

259
00:16:25,290 --> 00:16:26,340
What can you improve?

260
00:16:26,670 --> 00:16:29,160
And tomorrow morning when you're
on the range or you're on the

261
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:34,110
mats or whatever it is that you're
teaching, you can make these changes.

262
00:16:34,110 --> 00:16:35,880
There's a whole variety.

263
00:16:36,449 --> 00:16:40,920
Of improvements that you can do in your
training that will make your learning

264
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:46,319
for your people so much deeper and richer
and meaningful without changing the big

265
00:16:46,319 --> 00:16:49,230
structure within which, uh, you work.

266
00:16:49,770 --> 00:16:53,400
So would would that basically be saying,
okay, we've got these performance

267
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,090
objective checks that we have to go
through for the department, we'll check

268
00:16:57,090 --> 00:17:02,730
'em off, but we'll also add some nuance
and maybe just have a side project or

269
00:17:02,730 --> 00:17:06,089
some ancillary training kind of around
it to give different perspectives.

270
00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:08,670
Would that be sort of the approach?

271
00:17:09,270 --> 00:17:11,670
Well, that certainly could
be one of the approaches.

272
00:17:11,670 --> 00:17:16,410
And, you know, an example of what you
just said would be firearms qualification.

273
00:17:16,859 --> 00:17:21,810
So we, we, we know from the research,
I mean, this is not, there's

274
00:17:21,810 --> 00:17:27,089
no, the, the jury has returned a
verdict and it's guilty on, on this.

275
00:17:27,089 --> 00:17:31,230
The firearms qualification
in law enforcement is an

276
00:17:31,230 --> 00:17:33,090
absolutely meaningless exercise.

277
00:17:33,810 --> 00:17:41,430
So it has nothing to do with an officer's
ability to, to use combat shooting

278
00:17:41,490 --> 00:17:47,159
effectively, safely, correctly in
an operational real officer involved

279
00:17:47,159 --> 00:17:51,419
shooting, setting, uh, administrative
qualification shoot has zero,

280
00:17:53,010 --> 00:17:56,340
zero relationship to performance.

281
00:17:56,370 --> 00:17:56,490
Mm-hmm.

282
00:17:56,879 --> 00:17:57,210
I agree.

283
00:17:57,210 --> 00:18:01,620
And yet, and so, but here's what happens,
and I just had this conversation with

284
00:18:01,620 --> 00:18:07,080
a very good trainer from Ontario,
um, this week actually about this is

285
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:13,320
what happens is so much emphasis gets
put on the firearms qualification.

286
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:18,899
Shoot that now we begin to consume
so much of our training hours.

287
00:18:20,445 --> 00:18:25,485
To get our people prepared to a level
where they can pass this ridiculous

288
00:18:25,485 --> 00:18:27,345
administrative qualification shoot.

289
00:18:28,035 --> 00:18:31,845
And so not only is now is the
qualification shoot meaningless,

290
00:18:31,935 --> 00:18:35,985
but we've completely wasted all of
those valuable training hours that

291
00:18:35,985 --> 00:18:40,215
we could have been doing training to
make our people much more effective,

292
00:18:40,215 --> 00:18:42,645
safer, better combat shooters.

293
00:18:42,855 --> 00:18:47,295
So my, my encouragement there is,
yeah, look, you're, you're, you're

294
00:18:47,295 --> 00:18:49,875
pro, most trainers are not at the
level where they're gonna be able to

295
00:18:49,875 --> 00:18:56,415
influence change at a provincial or
state qualification shooting standard.

296
00:18:56,805 --> 00:18:59,685
But let's, at, let's at least
recognize a couple things.

297
00:18:59,685 --> 00:19:03,495
One is it's a pointless exercise,
but it needs to be done for

298
00:19:03,495 --> 00:19:04,725
administrative purposes.

299
00:19:04,725 --> 00:19:04,785
Hmm.

300
00:19:05,264 --> 00:19:05,685
Got it.

301
00:19:05,895 --> 00:19:09,254
There's maybe, in some places
there's legislations, regulations,

302
00:19:09,254 --> 00:19:10,815
we gotta do this thing.

303
00:19:11,085 --> 00:19:12,014
So here's the point.

304
00:19:12,014 --> 00:19:15,105
We recognize it's meaningless,
has no bearing on performance.

305
00:19:15,435 --> 00:19:19,425
Let's put the minimal amount
of time needed in order to.

306
00:19:20,054 --> 00:19:25,695
Pass this qualification shoot, rather
than training for the qualification shoot,

307
00:19:26,175 --> 00:19:32,024
let's put the majority of our time and
our emphasis into actual combat shooting

308
00:19:32,024 --> 00:19:34,544
skills that will really serve them well.

309
00:19:35,205 --> 00:19:36,465
Um, on the street.

310
00:19:37,395 --> 00:19:38,955
And, uh, actually I'm,

311
00:19:39,135 --> 00:19:39,465
yeah,

312
00:19:40,544 --> 00:19:40,754
sorry.

313
00:19:40,754 --> 00:19:44,595
I was just gonna, I was just gonna say
one, one trainer, firearms trainer.

314
00:19:45,225 --> 00:19:49,965
I think he, he really did a,
a great job kind of embracing

315
00:19:49,965 --> 00:19:52,875
this and what his approach is.

316
00:19:53,355 --> 00:19:59,235
So he spends the bulk of his
time with his people in very

317
00:19:59,235 --> 00:20:05,625
non-linear ecological combat firearm
shooting type of environments.

318
00:20:05,835 --> 00:20:10,064
So he starts with, um, cert Pistols.

319
00:20:10,665 --> 00:20:12,855
He graduates them to Airsoft.

320
00:20:13,230 --> 00:20:15,240
Blowback green gas weapons.

321
00:20:15,420 --> 00:20:20,100
He goes from Airsoft blowback
green gas to stimulation now

322
00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:21,720
doing force on force stuff.

323
00:20:22,110 --> 00:20:25,770
And uh, then he'll go into
live fire a little bit.

324
00:20:25,770 --> 00:20:29,820
He'll come back to doing really
meaningful force on force combat

325
00:20:29,820 --> 00:20:32,130
encounters with airsoft and munitions.

326
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:39,750
And so he's dialed back the amount of
live fire significantly and upped the

327
00:20:39,780 --> 00:20:45,690
non-consequential firearms technologies
such as Airsoft certs, munition.

328
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:52,470
And what he's found is now when they go to
shoot the qualification shoot, it is like

329
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:58,890
white belt level easy for people because
they've already been training mm-hmm.

330
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,870
For 80% of their firearms
training at a serious combat.

331
00:21:04,665 --> 00:21:09,255
Force on force level that now putting
a stupid hole in a piece of paper while

332
00:21:09,255 --> 00:21:12,200
standing stationary, it's, it is not.

333
00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:12,920
Mm-hmm.

334
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:14,355
It's not a challenge.

335
00:21:15,015 --> 00:21:18,105
And I'm like, well that's,
that's exactly right.

336
00:21:18,615 --> 00:21:19,065
Yeah.

337
00:21:19,155 --> 00:21:22,245
And what that old saying,
train hard, fight easy, train

338
00:21:22,245 --> 00:21:23,475
easy, fight hard and die.

339
00:21:23,715 --> 00:21:24,075
Right?

340
00:21:24,075 --> 00:21:29,835
It's, um, yeah, who was it that wrote,
uh, train training at the Speed of Life?

341
00:21:29,895 --> 00:21:36,075
And he was talking about, uh, uh, some
states that have gone away from the

342
00:21:36,075 --> 00:21:40,695
traditional how many rounds you can
put into a target, uh, in a timeframe

343
00:21:40,695 --> 00:21:46,005
at certain distances to a single
round course of fire, where instead

344
00:21:46,005 --> 00:21:51,375
of measuring their, uh, ability to
repeat it at these distances, they're

345
00:21:51,375 --> 00:21:52,695
measuring their decision making.

346
00:21:52,875 --> 00:21:56,475
Did they make, make the right
decision at the right time, which.

347
00:21:56,909 --> 00:22:02,340
I think especially in Canada's model
that we've kind of adopted and shared

348
00:22:02,340 --> 00:22:07,889
across, uh, federally might introduce a
lot of subjectivity into something that

349
00:22:07,889 --> 00:22:10,830
would be otherwise arguably objective.

350
00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:15,659
There's a lot of subjective, um, uh,
pass or fails, which could make the

351
00:22:15,659 --> 00:22:18,810
lawyers a little bit, uh, twitchy
and the people signing off on it.

352
00:22:19,260 --> 00:22:25,050
But, uh, would that be, you think a
better model judge a person on their

353
00:22:25,169 --> 00:22:27,870
decision making ability in the situation?

354
00:22:27,990 --> 00:22:28,260
Yeah.

355
00:22:28,260 --> 00:22:29,820
Well, I think for sure.

356
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,770
I think there needs to be both of those.

357
00:22:31,770 --> 00:22:40,290
That definitely perception in, um,
decision making, performance accuracy

358
00:22:41,070 --> 00:22:44,669
is, all of those are certainly important.

359
00:22:44,669 --> 00:22:48,600
I mean, in the current qualification
shoots in that most agencies,

360
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,889
states, provinces perform, there's
minimal to no decision making.

361
00:22:52,889 --> 00:22:53,100
It's.

362
00:22:53,850 --> 00:22:58,860
When the target turns from the holster
fire right through route, you know,

363
00:22:58,860 --> 00:23:00,600
it's, it's that kind of nonsense.

364
00:23:00,605 --> 00:23:05,340
But, um, but here, let, let, let
me give you a, uh, an example

365
00:23:05,340 --> 00:23:09,480
of some very significant change
that's happened as a result of

366
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:11,700
taking an evidence-based approach.

367
00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:14,865
So, and this is a, a
shout, shout out to Dr.

368
00:23:14,865 --> 00:23:18,840
Simon Baldwin from the re
research section of the Royal

369
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,210
Canadian Mounted Police, the RCMP.

370
00:23:21,660 --> 00:23:25,950
Um, what Dr. Baldwin and his colleagues
did is they did an analysis of officer

371
00:23:25,950 --> 00:23:28,110
involved shootings for the RCMP.

372
00:23:28,110 --> 00:23:32,520
I think it was just over a 10 year
study of all officer involved shootings.

373
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,370
They looked at distances, they looked
at lighting, they looked at number of

374
00:23:35,370 --> 00:23:37,230
rounds fired, they looked at timing.

375
00:23:37,740 --> 00:23:40,980
Um, all of these very important variables.

376
00:23:41,504 --> 00:23:46,245
And taking that evidence from 10
years of analysis of what does

377
00:23:46,245 --> 00:23:50,115
these shootings, what do they
actually look like in the field?

378
00:23:50,115 --> 00:23:51,284
What's the distances?

379
00:23:51,284 --> 00:23:51,375
Mm-hmm.

380
00:23:51,375 --> 00:23:55,034
What's the speed, what's the number
of shots, what's all of that stuff?

381
00:23:55,304 --> 00:24:02,054
And then they changed the A FQ, the annual
firearms qualification for the RCMP.

382
00:24:02,115 --> 00:24:07,004
They went away from a whole bunch of
ridiculous type of shooting on the range

383
00:24:07,004 --> 00:24:11,840
in their A FQ, which they had done for
years and years and years, and mm-hmm.

384
00:24:12,014 --> 00:24:15,824
Changed it, changed it to a six round
qualification, shoot, close distances,

385
00:24:16,185 --> 00:24:20,385
um, including movement, the use, use
of cover, all that type of stuff.

386
00:24:20,385 --> 00:24:23,504
So still a lot, I still a lot
of improvement that could be

387
00:24:23,504 --> 00:24:27,465
made, but what a great shift in
the right direction for sure.

388
00:24:28,064 --> 00:24:28,665
No kidding.

389
00:24:28,665 --> 00:24:32,655
And for a large federal police force
to start making that movement, like

390
00:24:32,655 --> 00:24:34,544
that's, that's a big wheel to turn.

391
00:24:34,965 --> 00:24:37,665
And if they're making those
steps, others are gonna follow.

392
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:38,790
Yeah.

393
00:24:38,970 --> 00:24:39,390
Right.

394
00:24:39,660 --> 00:24:43,050
And I, yeah, I, I'm encouraged
to see that they're leading the

395
00:24:43,050 --> 00:24:45,090
way, I think in that right now.

396
00:24:45,090 --> 00:24:49,200
And, and like I said, there's still
a lot of improvements that that

397
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,590
can be made, but that's, that's
really the approach to take, right?

398
00:24:52,620 --> 00:24:56,460
I mean, when it comes to not just
firearm shooting, but even all of your

399
00:24:56,460 --> 00:25:01,260
combatives, your less lethal weapons,
all of that type of stuff is where did

400
00:25:01,260 --> 00:25:03,270
the res, where do, where do we start?

401
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,040
Researchers tell us.

402
00:25:05,070 --> 00:25:08,460
So if we're looking at designing,
and this applies to any learning

403
00:25:08,460 --> 00:25:13,290
environment, okay, so let's say you
have to take a, a group of individuals

404
00:25:13,650 --> 00:25:18,555
and train them for performance in some
type of a performance environment.

405
00:25:19,215 --> 00:25:22,920
The first place you go is you
go to that environment and you

406
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:24,270
go, what are the conditions?

407
00:25:24,540 --> 00:25:27,090
What are all the variables
that are going to be there?

408
00:25:27,090 --> 00:25:28,140
The context.

409
00:25:28,740 --> 00:25:33,000
You, you know, the what are,
what are the, the speeds with

410
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,350
which things are going to occur?

411
00:25:34,350 --> 00:25:35,820
What does the environment look like?

412
00:25:35,820 --> 00:25:36,990
What's the lighting look like?

413
00:25:37,020 --> 00:25:41,700
What's timing, what's what, what does
the learning environment look like?

414
00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:43,440
It's called the criterion environment.

415
00:25:43,890 --> 00:25:47,670
You go to the criterion environment,
that performance domain, you pull

416
00:25:47,670 --> 00:25:52,020
out the critical variables, and
that's your start where you now have

417
00:25:52,020 --> 00:25:54,510
something to start to build training.

418
00:25:54,540 --> 00:25:59,370
And that's, that's the, that's
the approach that all we all need

419
00:25:59,370 --> 00:26:03,840
to take is a very evidence-based
approach to learning like that.

420
00:26:04,230 --> 00:26:09,210
So the Silver Core Podcast has
a, has a high law enforcement and

421
00:26:09,210 --> 00:26:14,160
military listenership, and I'm sure
the trainers bullpen even higher, uh,

422
00:26:14,190 --> 00:26:18,120
listenership just based on the subject
matter that's being talked about.

423
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:23,460
But there's also a very large civilian
contingent that listens to the podcast.

424
00:26:23,460 --> 00:26:26,850
And there's gonna be
people who are training.

425
00:26:27,645 --> 00:26:31,365
The high school basketball team, there's
gonna be people who are training in,

426
00:26:31,365 --> 00:26:37,215
in different areas of life that don't
have the same consequences that law

427
00:26:37,215 --> 00:26:38,534
enforcement training's gonna have.

428
00:26:38,895 --> 00:26:41,084
It's, did we win the game
or did we lose the game?

429
00:26:41,235 --> 00:26:41,294
Yeah.

430
00:26:41,715 --> 00:26:47,564
But that said, I would think there's a
lot of, um, a lot of parallels just in a

431
00:26:47,564 --> 00:26:53,415
training model that they could use to help
their team succeed, help their team excel.

432
00:26:53,804 --> 00:26:57,855
Would you be able to identify any
parallels or things that p trainers

433
00:26:57,855 --> 00:27:02,985
could look at that could take it
from the, the rote traditional

434
00:27:02,985 --> 00:27:07,185
training style to something that's
going to actually work with what we

435
00:27:07,185 --> 00:27:09,435
know of how the human brain learns?

436
00:27:09,675 --> 00:27:10,274
Right on.

437
00:27:10,395 --> 00:27:11,625
No, you're, I love it.

438
00:27:11,774 --> 00:27:12,195
Thank you.

439
00:27:12,195 --> 00:27:13,965
You're, you're exactly right.

440
00:27:13,965 --> 00:27:18,314
Is, is the, the, there is
no corner or monopoly on.

441
00:27:18,690 --> 00:27:22,740
Of all of the stuff that we include,
like for example, in our methods

442
00:27:22,740 --> 00:27:26,820
of instruction course on this
isn't a law enforcement specific.

443
00:27:27,150 --> 00:27:34,440
We have robbed and pillaged from all of
these other domains, including high level

444
00:27:34,950 --> 00:27:42,180
performance like sporting domains that
are, where there's ambiguity, rapidly

445
00:27:42,180 --> 00:27:48,690
unfolding, decision making, attention,
vision, orientation, adaptability.

446
00:27:48,870 --> 00:27:51,630
Like we could be talking about
rugby, we could be talking

447
00:27:51,630 --> 00:27:54,240
about football, soccer, tennis.

448
00:27:54,630 --> 00:27:56,635
Um, you know, one of, one of the, mm-hmm.

449
00:27:57,115 --> 00:27:59,910
I think the guest that I've had
on the trainer's bullpen, who has

450
00:27:59,910 --> 00:28:05,880
the highest, uh, downloads for
his podcast is Dr. Mark Williams.

451
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:11,160
Dr. Mark Williams is a motor
skills expert, um, over the

452
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,170
pond, and he's published.

453
00:28:13,980 --> 00:28:16,860
More peer reviewed papers
than I care to count.

454
00:28:16,860 --> 00:28:18,240
And he's got textbooks out.

455
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:23,910
And, um, but his domain is not law
enforcement or the military, but law

456
00:28:23,910 --> 00:28:26,400
enforcement in the military and aviation.

457
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:32,460
And they have taken all of those
important concepts from that

458
00:28:32,465 --> 00:28:34,650
domain and brought them in.

459
00:28:34,650 --> 00:28:39,120
And, you know, one of the, one of the
common things, Travis, that happens

460
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,410
on it, on every one of our courses,
because a lot of our, our trainers

461
00:28:43,410 --> 00:28:50,370
are also, they teach, uh, BJJ or
they teach some other martial art.

462
00:28:50,375 --> 00:28:50,385
Mm-hmm.

463
00:28:50,455 --> 00:28:55,110
Or they teach their
kids soccer or football.

464
00:28:55,110 --> 00:28:59,160
One of our students was a, a
university basketball coach,

465
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:04,080
coached at the basketball
level, varsity level basketball.

466
00:29:05,130 --> 00:29:07,590
And, uh, he realized.

467
00:29:08,729 --> 00:29:11,580
As he's going through this course,
there's like two parallel things

468
00:29:11,580 --> 00:29:13,679
going on in his, in his brain.

469
00:29:13,770 --> 00:29:19,679
One is as a, as a law enforcement
trainer, how all of this stuff applies.

470
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,979
But then parallel to that was
like, he was like, oh my gosh.

471
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:29,070
And these trainers that are coaches
also on the side are going, all this

472
00:29:29,070 --> 00:29:33,989
stuff applies here, here and here
and here in how I coach my kids.

473
00:29:34,709 --> 00:29:39,060
And so there's just, there's
this wonderful synergy between

474
00:29:39,270 --> 00:29:43,139
the two that are connected all
the way, all the way through.

475
00:29:43,139 --> 00:29:44,189
So you, you're right.

476
00:29:44,189 --> 00:29:47,489
It's just this is how people learn.

477
00:29:47,699 --> 00:29:48,899
This is how people learn.

478
00:29:49,290 --> 00:29:52,919
What are some of the things that
surprise people that come on the five

479
00:29:52,919 --> 00:29:58,169
day MOI course that traditionally
they've looked at as this is the way

480
00:29:58,169 --> 00:30:03,455
things are done and that they can take
away applicable to their own life?

481
00:30:04,245 --> 00:30:04,995
Uh, yeah.

482
00:30:04,995 --> 00:30:07,485
So therefore there's lot,
there's lots of surprises.

483
00:30:07,485 --> 00:30:08,595
I can give you a few of them.

484
00:30:08,595 --> 00:30:14,235
I think the, the first one is,
um, the frequency with which we

485
00:30:14,235 --> 00:30:16,695
mistake performance with learning.

486
00:30:17,955 --> 00:30:19,725
And what I mean by that is, mm-hmm.

487
00:30:19,725 --> 00:30:24,015
So in in motor skills acquisition,
there's something that's called, um,

488
00:30:24,254 --> 00:30:29,415
um, the, uh, illusion of learning
or performance improvements.

489
00:30:29,415 --> 00:30:36,254
And that is the improvements that
you see during a training event.

490
00:30:36,405 --> 00:30:40,575
So let's say we're teaching somebody,
a group of people at the beginning of

491
00:30:40,575 --> 00:30:46,215
the day and at, they're really, they're
really poor at the beginning of the day.

492
00:30:46,215 --> 00:30:49,515
But as the, as we go on throughout
the day, you see them get better

493
00:30:49,515 --> 00:30:50,865
and better and better and better.

494
00:30:51,585 --> 00:30:54,525
We think, wow, look at the learning
that's taking place, right?

495
00:30:54,525 --> 00:30:55,905
Well look at the learning
that's taking place.

496
00:30:55,905 --> 00:31:01,095
No, that's called a performance
improvement and it has nothing

497
00:31:01,095 --> 00:31:05,235
to do, perhaps with whether
actual learning is taking place.

498
00:31:05,235 --> 00:31:11,895
And so this is the big shock initially
for trainers, because here's the problem

499
00:31:11,895 --> 00:31:18,225
with this is if we confuse performance
improvements with actual learning, and

500
00:31:18,225 --> 00:31:24,345
by the way, learning is only measured
after the training event so that you, you

501
00:31:24,345 --> 00:31:26,055
have what's called a retention period.

502
00:31:26,655 --> 00:31:32,145
So I would say I'm doing some training
with you and we end the day, then we

503
00:31:32,145 --> 00:31:35,745
would have a retention period of maybe
several days or maybe a week or maybe a

504
00:31:35,745 --> 00:31:39,555
month, and then I would bring you back,
Travis, and I put you in exactly the

505
00:31:39,555 --> 00:31:43,005
same context and say, okay, there you go.

506
00:31:43,005 --> 00:31:43,995
Let's see how you do.

507
00:31:44,775 --> 00:31:48,495
Now what I'm measuring is
your retention for that skill.

508
00:31:49,275 --> 00:31:49,675
Um mm-hmm.

509
00:31:50,715 --> 00:31:54,465
So that's one criteria for measuring
whether learning is taking place.

510
00:31:54,524 --> 00:31:58,304
Is it retained long term
after the, the training event.

511
00:31:58,844 --> 00:32:00,554
The second measurement
is what's called, hmm.

512
00:32:01,425 --> 00:32:03,554
The second measurement is
what's called transfer.

513
00:32:04,274 --> 00:32:08,475
And transfer means, and this is
super important for non-linear

514
00:32:08,475 --> 00:32:12,314
performance domains like law
enforcement transfer means, now what?

515
00:32:12,375 --> 00:32:17,084
I bring you back after a day, a
week or a month, I bring you back.

516
00:32:17,084 --> 00:32:23,324
But the conditions are not exactly the
same that they were when you performed it.

517
00:32:23,504 --> 00:32:25,485
I've added some variables to it.

518
00:32:25,485 --> 00:32:26,655
I've changed some things.

519
00:32:26,864 --> 00:32:30,524
Maybe I've lowered lighting,
change distances, change, whatever.

520
00:32:30,794 --> 00:32:32,804
So I've changed the context.

521
00:32:33,794 --> 00:32:37,725
Is your brain now able to
still retain the Correct.

522
00:32:38,264 --> 00:32:44,175
So read what's happening, be able to
retain and recall the, the correct.

523
00:32:44,955 --> 00:32:49,604
Problem solving for this and
then modify it as needed in

524
00:32:49,604 --> 00:32:51,645
order to still be successful.

525
00:32:51,645 --> 00:32:53,054
And that's called transfer.

526
00:32:53,264 --> 00:32:57,375
Transfer is the ability to not only
recall information, but to recall

527
00:32:57,375 --> 00:32:59,564
it and then change it on the fly.

528
00:32:59,774 --> 00:33:03,284
Change it on the fly in order to
accomplish, Hmm, your objective.

529
00:33:03,794 --> 00:33:08,925
So this is the, the biggest shock
for trainers because if you confuse

530
00:33:08,925 --> 00:33:14,294
performance improvements with actual
learning, then what happens is all

531
00:33:14,294 --> 00:33:22,784
of your training design, your whole
pedagogy is then, um, performed in

532
00:33:22,784 --> 00:33:27,074
such a way that your emphasis is on
getting performance improvements.

533
00:33:28,574 --> 00:33:33,254
If your emphasis is on actual
learning for retention and transfer.

534
00:33:34,215 --> 00:33:38,385
It's going to drive the way that
you design and deliver training in

535
00:33:38,385 --> 00:33:41,685
a radically different way because
you're actually, you don't care.

536
00:33:42,015 --> 00:33:46,005
You're not measuring performance
improvements during the training.

537
00:33:46,545 --> 00:33:55,125
And so you're creating now a very
contextual, uh, interleaved spaced

538
00:33:55,635 --> 00:34:01,005
problem, full learning environment
with the correct amount of pressure.

539
00:34:01,005 --> 00:34:06,225
And we talk about what is the correct
amount of pressure, how many mistakes are

540
00:34:06,315 --> 00:34:09,195
necessary for good learning to take place?

541
00:34:09,195 --> 00:34:13,784
So there's, there's a, there's a
second shocker for trainers because

542
00:34:13,784 --> 00:34:18,045
a lot of them view errors and
mistakes in training as the enemy.

543
00:34:18,315 --> 00:34:19,365
And I know I did.

544
00:34:19,995 --> 00:34:23,085
Like I did forever as a,
as a firearms instructor.

545
00:34:23,415 --> 00:34:27,885
I can't tell you the amount of hours that
I spent on the range thinking if I could

546
00:34:27,885 --> 00:34:30,885
just get this beautiful draw stroke in.

547
00:34:30,885 --> 00:34:35,355
Like just get the biomechanics, the
fundamentals of this draw stroke,

548
00:34:35,355 --> 00:34:40,245
and we'll do a hundred or a thousand
of these draw strokes on the range.

549
00:34:40,605 --> 00:34:42,915
And I was of the thinking mm-hmm.

550
00:34:42,940 --> 00:34:49,095
That if I could just get that performance
to that level with perfect performance

551
00:34:49,095 --> 00:34:53,505
on the fundamentals, that that's what
would come out in the real world.

552
00:34:53,565 --> 00:34:55,845
And of course we know from the
real, that's exactly wrong.

553
00:34:56,205 --> 00:34:57,885
That's that's totally wrong.

554
00:34:58,365 --> 00:34:58,725
Mm. But,

555
00:34:58,725 --> 00:35:08,295
um, so it, when we understand that adding
pressure, allowing struggle, allowing

556
00:35:08,295 --> 00:35:12,945
your people to problem solve on their
own, not spoonfeeding them solutions,

557
00:35:13,245 --> 00:35:16,905
let them find their own way to being.

558
00:35:17,670 --> 00:35:18,780
Solving problems.

559
00:35:18,870 --> 00:35:23,940
And then as an instructor or coach,
my feedback is not what's called

560
00:35:23,940 --> 00:35:26,190
directive extrinsic feedback.

561
00:35:26,250 --> 00:35:28,710
I don't tell people what
they're doing wrong.

562
00:35:28,740 --> 00:35:30,810
I don't tell them what they
need to do to correct it.

563
00:35:31,350 --> 00:35:36,570
You need to take what's called a Socratic
approach, which is just getting your

564
00:35:36,675 --> 00:35:41,550
people to recognize on their own what
is the problem that's facing them.

565
00:35:41,970 --> 00:35:44,400
Why are they struggling to be successful?

566
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,870
And then third, what do they need
to change in order to accomplish

567
00:35:49,110 --> 00:35:50,400
the outcome that they want?

568
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,880
And then once they do that, they own it.

569
00:35:54,870 --> 00:35:57,180
They own the solution themselves.

570
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,820
It hasn't been sped spoonfed to them.

571
00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:02,790
You haven't handed it to
them on a silver platter.

572
00:36:03,180 --> 00:36:04,680
You've allowed them to struggle.

573
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,520
You've allowed them to make mistakes,
and you've carefully and slowly,

574
00:36:09,060 --> 00:36:13,320
um, provided the type of Socratic
feedback that's needed for them.

575
00:36:14,174 --> 00:36:15,585
To solve their own problems.

576
00:36:15,855 --> 00:36:21,134
So it's it, there's two
radically different trajectories

577
00:36:21,225 --> 00:36:22,845
in motor skills training.

578
00:36:22,845 --> 00:36:27,435
So if you take the performance-based
approach, your training is very linear.

579
00:36:27,615 --> 00:36:31,275
It's static, it's non-con
contextual, in and error.

580
00:36:31,335 --> 00:36:32,985
Uh, mistakes are viewed as enemies.

581
00:36:33,045 --> 00:36:34,154
We don't want them in training.

582
00:36:34,455 --> 00:36:38,685
But if your focus is on learning and
retention, it's exactly the opposite.

583
00:36:39,015 --> 00:36:42,915
Your learning environment includes
pressure early on, contextual

584
00:36:43,215 --> 00:36:45,134
realism right out of the gate.

585
00:36:45,585 --> 00:36:47,475
We don't focus on fundamentals.

586
00:36:47,835 --> 00:36:53,775
We allow errors and struggle and
problem solving, and that creates a

587
00:36:53,775 --> 00:36:59,025
very powerful learning environment
that optimizes retention and transfer.

588
00:36:59,085 --> 00:36:59,145
So

589
00:36:59,955 --> 00:37:01,695
that brings to mind who was it?

590
00:37:01,695 --> 00:37:07,485
Uh, uh, US General or Colonel says, said,
don't tell somebody how to do something.

591
00:37:07,485 --> 00:37:10,695
Tell 'em what you want to see accomplished
and let 'em surprise you with the results.

592
00:37:11,205 --> 00:37:15,555
Um, but in that same breath, that's
gotta be really difficult to do at a

593
00:37:15,555 --> 00:37:20,385
departmental level with hundreds of
people coming through all the time.

594
00:37:20,805 --> 00:37:24,465
Um, is that just a fact of life?

595
00:37:24,495 --> 00:37:29,475
It's gonna take more time and require
more one-on-one training to be able

596
00:37:29,475 --> 00:37:30,855
to have that Socratic approach?

597
00:37:30,885 --> 00:37:34,935
'cause I, I gotta imagine at
large scale, that's, that's

598
00:37:34,935 --> 00:37:36,165
gotta be a tough thing to do.

599
00:37:37,155 --> 00:37:40,605
Yeah, no, the, the interesting
thing about it's is it doesn't

600
00:37:40,605 --> 00:37:42,315
take any more time at all.

601
00:37:42,315 --> 00:37:44,775
And there's, there's been
research that's been done on that.

602
00:37:44,775 --> 00:37:46,155
So it's a, it is a great question.

603
00:37:46,155 --> 00:37:47,595
Thank you for asking that.

604
00:37:47,595 --> 00:37:54,225
But there's been research that has
compared a very linear, uh, block

605
00:37:54,225 --> 00:37:56,145
type of training approach, which.

606
00:37:57,015 --> 00:38:00,705
The standard, what we typically
see in many law enforcement

607
00:38:00,705 --> 00:38:03,165
academies Mm, is non-con contextual.

608
00:38:03,645 --> 00:38:09,825
I focus on techniques, block approach to
training and compared it to, um, training.

609
00:38:09,825 --> 00:38:15,375
That is interleaved, that's space that
includes Socratic type of, or deci.

610
00:38:16,065 --> 00:38:17,175
There's another term for it.

611
00:38:17,175 --> 00:38:19,095
I, I refer to it as Socratic feedback.

612
00:38:19,095 --> 00:38:23,775
Dr. Joan Vickers calls it decision
training, and that's a good term for

613
00:38:23,775 --> 00:38:28,275
it too, because it implies in there
that what we are actually creating is

614
00:38:28,275 --> 00:38:30,285
people who know how to make decisions.

615
00:38:30,735 --> 00:38:32,955
Wow, that might be
important for cops, right?

616
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:33,009
Mm-hmm.

617
00:38:33,090 --> 00:38:35,955
The ability to make decisions,
not just do a thing.

618
00:38:36,585 --> 00:38:37,515
Not just do a thing.

619
00:38:37,515 --> 00:38:37,575
Yeah.

620
00:38:37,725 --> 00:38:40,665
But to know when to do it, why to
do it, and how to change it, and

621
00:38:40,665 --> 00:38:44,715
when to stop, and it's decision
training, that's important.

622
00:38:44,715 --> 00:38:49,335
And so the, the research has compared
apples to apples on this as far as time

623
00:38:49,335 --> 00:38:54,675
goes and has found without changing any
of the time, the retention and transfer.

624
00:38:55,215 --> 00:39:03,585
On the nonlinear type of approach to
training is like, it's vastly superior.

625
00:39:03,795 --> 00:39:07,905
Un like the, the, when, when they,
they measure the retention and

626
00:39:07,905 --> 00:39:09,795
transfer on all of these studies.

627
00:39:10,185 --> 00:39:18,495
It's just alarming to see how much better
the, the performance is on people who

628
00:39:18,495 --> 00:39:24,255
have gone through a very non-linear
type of, of learning environment.

629
00:39:24,825 --> 00:39:29,805
But the problem is, as long as we keep
our fixation on the immediate performance

630
00:39:29,805 --> 00:39:33,855
improvements, like we gotta check sheet
man, and I'm going check, check, check,

631
00:39:33,855 --> 00:39:35,175
check, check on the box during, mm-hmm.

632
00:39:35,415 --> 00:39:35,985
Training event.

633
00:39:35,985 --> 00:39:38,355
And I sign you off and I say, you're good.

634
00:39:38,355 --> 00:39:39,135
You're good to go.

635
00:39:39,135 --> 00:39:40,095
You're not good to go.

636
00:39:40,095 --> 00:39:47,085
This, this has no bearing at all on your
level of learning that took place or

637
00:39:47,085 --> 00:39:49,665
your ability to retain it and use it.

638
00:39:50,445 --> 00:39:51,975
Street when it counts.

639
00:39:52,425 --> 00:39:56,145
Now here's, here's a topic that
I thought would be interesting to

640
00:39:56,145 --> 00:39:59,055
explore and it's gonna be topical.

641
00:39:59,385 --> 00:40:04,515
So as a expert for the courts,
you've been called in on hundreds

642
00:40:04,515 --> 00:40:10,305
and hundreds of different cases to
opine on use of force situations.

643
00:40:10,455 --> 00:40:13,875
And your role is strictly
as an expert for the courts.

644
00:40:13,875 --> 00:40:15,945
You're not advocating for
one side or the other.

645
00:40:16,305 --> 00:40:20,745
You're providing the information that's
available to you based on your experience.

646
00:40:21,495 --> 00:40:26,955
Very few people out there listening
to this are gonna have your experience

647
00:40:26,985 --> 00:40:31,485
and that level of expertise when
it comes to looking objectively at

648
00:40:31,605 --> 00:40:33,795
things that unfold in the media.

649
00:40:33,795 --> 00:40:37,935
And right now we've got a hot
topic in the States in Minneapolis.

650
00:40:38,475 --> 00:40:39,855
There's that ice shooting.

651
00:40:40,275 --> 00:40:44,445
Now we don't have all the information
yet, but I'm wondering if you

652
00:40:44,445 --> 00:40:47,025
could take us through perhaps.

653
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:54,090
An objective, uh, approach that somebody
in your position would look at when

654
00:40:54,090 --> 00:40:57,840
they're looking at videos and whether
those videos tell the whole story

655
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,580
and when it comes down to training.

656
00:40:59,580 --> 00:41:05,730
And so objectively start pulling apart,
uh, what would be important to look at?

657
00:41:06,060 --> 00:41:10,410
And I definitely don't, I'm not asking
you to opine one way or the other on

658
00:41:10,410 --> 00:41:13,860
this one, but, uh, a framework that
people can use that they can then apply

659
00:41:13,860 --> 00:41:17,940
to anything that, uh, they look at
and start making their own decisions.

660
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,730
Yeah, no, that's a, that's
a really good question.

661
00:41:20,730 --> 00:41:22,920
Thank you for asking that.

662
00:41:23,100 --> 00:41:29,610
Um, so video first of all is, is
can be very helpful in obviously

663
00:41:29,610 --> 00:41:31,320
in a use of force investigation.

664
00:41:31,350 --> 00:41:37,350
And when I, I do a review, I always
want as much video as I can get.

665
00:41:37,770 --> 00:41:43,650
Um, however, video can also
be extremely dangerous.

666
00:41:44,475 --> 00:41:45,975
It can be dangerous in this way.

667
00:41:45,975 --> 00:41:46,665
And we've seen it.

668
00:41:46,725 --> 00:41:47,415
I mean, you're right.

669
00:41:47,415 --> 00:41:48,315
This is topical.

670
00:41:48,585 --> 00:41:53,985
We saw this play play out literally within
minutes after the mini, the shooting by

671
00:41:54,465 --> 00:42:01,515
of, by the ice agent in Minneapolis, where
people were opining with a high degree

672
00:42:01,515 --> 00:42:07,035
of confidence on one way or another,
whether why this shooting was completely

673
00:42:07,035 --> 00:42:10,875
inappropriate and unlawful, and the
officer should be charged criminally.

674
00:42:11,085 --> 00:42:14,385
Um, and then on the other end,
there were people saying, no,

675
00:42:14,385 --> 00:42:16,035
this was completely appropriate.

676
00:42:16,125 --> 00:42:21,015
Um, and they were, they were very
dogmatic about that assertion.

677
00:42:21,555 --> 00:42:25,815
But here's the danger in both of those
ditches on both of those sides is video

678
00:42:25,815 --> 00:42:29,865
can never tell us why something happened.

679
00:42:31,455 --> 00:42:34,425
It can never tell us
why something happened.

680
00:42:34,545 --> 00:42:37,395
It can tell us usually what happened.

681
00:42:38,115 --> 00:42:42,705
It can tell us the, the vehicle was
positioned here at this point in time.

682
00:42:42,705 --> 00:42:44,384
The vehicle began to drive forward.

683
00:42:44,985 --> 00:42:48,315
It appeared that the wheel had been turned
to the right because the front of the

684
00:42:48,315 --> 00:42:50,025
vehicle started to go in that direction.

685
00:42:50,295 --> 00:42:54,255
We know there was an officer standing
here and here and here, so that's

686
00:42:54,255 --> 00:43:01,154
all super helpful information, but it
can't tell us why something happened.

687
00:43:01,215 --> 00:43:06,884
Like why did an officer perceive that
in that circumstance where he was

688
00:43:06,884 --> 00:43:14,145
standing, that it was necessary in order,
uh, to, to save him or somebody else

689
00:43:14,355 --> 00:43:16,815
to fire his weapon in that situation?

690
00:43:17,115 --> 00:43:20,895
The only way that we, that we can know
that is through an analysis and, and

691
00:43:20,895 --> 00:43:25,725
I'll just speak here in for, in Canada,
because that's where I do pretty much

692
00:43:25,725 --> 00:43:30,855
all of my expert witness work, is we have
a case called RV NASA golic, which is

693
00:43:30,855 --> 00:43:33,525
a, a, a foundational use of force case.

694
00:43:34,455 --> 00:43:37,215
And uh, NAS tells us that.

695
00:43:37,695 --> 00:43:43,125
What's critical in a review of any use
of force by a police officer is what's

696
00:43:43,125 --> 00:43:46,035
called the totality of circumstances.

697
00:43:47,265 --> 00:43:52,695
The totality of circumstances,
and this begins at the very

698
00:43:52,695 --> 00:43:54,260
first instant that the call.

699
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:55,860
Comes in.

700
00:43:55,860 --> 00:43:59,370
And so I'm not talking now about the
Minneapolis one, I'm just talking

701
00:43:59,610 --> 00:44:04,200
generally, but from the first moment
that a call an officer becomes aware of a

702
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:09,060
call comes over the radio, Hey, dispatch
comes on, says, do I have, do I have

703
00:44:09,060 --> 00:44:11,070
a unit in the whatever, whatever area?

704
00:44:11,070 --> 00:44:15,990
We have a neighbor, uh, reporting that
her next door neighbors are away on

705
00:44:15,990 --> 00:44:20,070
holidays, and there appears to be a
male in the backyard casing the windows.

706
00:44:20,070 --> 00:44:20,400
Okay?

707
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,800
So as soon as that call begins to come in.

708
00:44:23,290 --> 00:44:28,630
Officers start forming their assessment
of the risk of what might be going on.

709
00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:33,010
And as more information comes in, as
they're responding to the call comes

710
00:44:33,010 --> 00:44:36,520
over the radio, it comes on what's
called their MDT, their computer

711
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,350
in their car, Bing, bing, bing.

712
00:44:38,350 --> 00:44:42,490
All this information comes on, starts
formulating more of an assessment,

713
00:44:43,090 --> 00:44:45,160
and then they get on scene.

714
00:44:45,190 --> 00:44:46,990
They're making their own observations.

715
00:44:46,990 --> 00:44:50,560
What are they seeing within
this, within this context?

716
00:44:50,770 --> 00:44:55,960
All of these factors, the environmental
factors, the number of subjects, the

717
00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:00,550
number of officers, the lighting,
the footing, the timing, the

718
00:45:00,550 --> 00:45:05,080
distances, the po, the belief that
there may be weapons present or not.

719
00:45:05,500 --> 00:45:10,060
The um, I impact of drugs or alcohol.

720
00:45:10,299 --> 00:45:14,500
Um, on a subject or subjects,
the number of subjects.

721
00:45:14,500 --> 00:45:17,020
Is this a controlled scene
or an uncontrolled scene?

722
00:45:17,380 --> 00:45:21,520
Is this, uh, a massive disturbance
outside of a bar where there's 50

723
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,549
or 75 people that are intoxicated
and yelling and screaming?

724
00:45:24,549 --> 00:45:26,680
Or is this a contained situation?

725
00:45:26,710 --> 00:45:32,230
Maybe this is inside of a, of a detachment
or a police, uh, lockup facility.

726
00:45:32,230 --> 00:45:37,930
So all of the totality of circumstances,
irrespective that each one of these

727
00:45:37,930 --> 00:45:39,910
events may have been captured on video,

728
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,319
that's the totality of circumstances.

729
00:45:44,350 --> 00:45:51,850
So the video is only one small
slice of an, of a complete fulsome,

730
00:45:52,060 --> 00:45:55,029
fair fact finding investigation.

731
00:45:55,029 --> 00:45:56,440
It's only one slice.

732
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,440
But here's the problem, and you
know this because we're all prone

733
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,859
to it, is video is highly emotional.

734
00:46:03,310 --> 00:46:04,990
It's powerfully visceral.

735
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:05,920
Mm.

736
00:46:06,009 --> 00:46:09,250
And we can watch a video
of something happen.

737
00:46:10,620 --> 00:46:16,230
And without even trying to do this, we
automatically come to a biased perception

738
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:21,210
of whether what we see on the, on the
video is appropriate or not appropriate.

739
00:46:21,569 --> 00:46:26,700
And by the way, law enforcement officers
are some of the worst offenders at this.

740
00:46:27,210 --> 00:46:33,029
We eat our own brothers and sisters
within, you know, somebody, I love this

741
00:46:33,029 --> 00:46:36,390
saying, somebody said that a lie can
travel all the way around the world before

742
00:46:36,390 --> 00:46:38,400
truth has a chance to put its shoes on.

743
00:46:39,029 --> 00:46:40,795
And, um, that's, mm-hmm.

744
00:46:40,895 --> 00:46:44,040
That's exactly the problem with video.

745
00:46:44,819 --> 00:46:50,520
And so, you know, from a leadership
perspective, a law enforcement leadership

746
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:55,200
perspective, how you stand in front of
the public, in front of a media scrum

747
00:46:55,740 --> 00:47:00,600
after a significant event, perhaps even
that looked controversial on video, how

748
00:47:00,990 --> 00:47:04,020
you talk to the public is incredibly.

749
00:47:04,455 --> 00:47:09,915
Important, um, because there's gonna
be a lot of emotion in everybody who's

750
00:47:09,915 --> 00:47:15,404
watched that video and they've come
to decisions and they need to, they

751
00:47:15,404 --> 00:47:21,944
need to feel that the, the agency
is honest, transparent, and, but

752
00:47:22,004 --> 00:47:25,274
also doing a thorough investigation.

753
00:47:25,274 --> 00:47:28,095
So you almost need to bring the
temperature down in the room, if

754
00:47:28,095 --> 00:47:31,305
you know what I'm saying, um, when
you're talking about these events.

755
00:47:31,455 --> 00:47:31,544
Sure.

756
00:47:32,115 --> 00:47:34,274
Let's just turn, let's just turn, okay.

757
00:47:34,274 --> 00:47:37,214
We need, we need more light
and less heat here, right?

758
00:47:37,214 --> 00:47:40,665
And the only way we're gonna get
more light on this is by taking the

759
00:47:40,665 --> 00:47:45,825
time being patient and allow the
investigation to mature and tell us

760
00:47:45,825 --> 00:47:48,584
exactly what happened and why it happened.

761
00:47:49,214 --> 00:47:54,524
Um, but yeah, the, the video
can be, can be very misleading.

762
00:47:54,584 --> 00:47:56,115
And in fact, here's another thing.

763
00:47:56,115 --> 00:47:57,225
Video can be wrong.

764
00:47:58,890 --> 00:47:59,820
Video can be wrong.

765
00:47:59,970 --> 00:48:00,090
Mm-hmm.

766
00:48:00,240 --> 00:48:00,990
Talk about that.

767
00:48:01,830 --> 00:48:04,080
Oh, well, well, it's a simple concept.

768
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:09,660
I mean, video, video is nothing but an
artificial tech technological recreation

769
00:48:10,140 --> 00:48:17,220
of an event, and it may be no more or
less accurate than an officer or witness's

770
00:48:17,220 --> 00:48:20,070
memories of what actually occurred.

771
00:48:20,610 --> 00:48:24,270
So, and, and there, there's
multiple technical reasons for this.

772
00:48:24,509 --> 00:48:30,540
In video, um, frame rate things may
have been missed between actual frames.

773
00:48:30,810 --> 00:48:33,570
Uh, there's something that's
called predictive video.

774
00:48:33,570 --> 00:48:37,440
So there's B frames and P
frames and I frames and video.

775
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:38,790
They're not all the same.

776
00:48:39,330 --> 00:48:42,240
In all of the, all of the frames
of something that's been filmed,

777
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:43,680
there's what's called P frames.

778
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,130
And a P frame is what, the
reason it's called a P frame is

779
00:48:47,130 --> 00:48:49,440
because it's a predictive frame.

780
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,410
So, for example, you take your,
your iPhone Travis, and you're

781
00:48:52,410 --> 00:48:53,970
filming something that's happening.

782
00:48:54,705 --> 00:48:57,585
Not all of those frames are
actually capturing what's

783
00:48:57,585 --> 00:48:59,505
happening in front of your camera.

784
00:49:00,195 --> 00:49:04,815
There's what's called I frames,
and an eye frame is a frame that's

785
00:49:04,815 --> 00:49:08,655
capturing the majority of the, of
that information that's right in

786
00:49:08,655 --> 00:49:09,915
front of the lens of your camera.

787
00:49:10,395 --> 00:49:12,195
And then there'll be a
whole bunch of more frames.

788
00:49:12,195 --> 00:49:14,985
And then eventually there'll be another
eye frame, and then a whole bunch of

789
00:49:14,985 --> 00:49:16,995
more frames, and then another I frame.

790
00:49:16,995 --> 00:49:22,335
But in between those bookends, in between
those I frames are what's called P frames.

791
00:49:23,025 --> 00:49:25,245
And those P frames, they're predictive.

792
00:49:25,695 --> 00:49:31,125
The technology makes it up based
upon the bookends of the P frames.

793
00:49:31,155 --> 00:49:31,245
Mm-hmm.

794
00:49:31,815 --> 00:49:37,125
As to what is going is is going to
be on all of those frames in between.

795
00:49:37,785 --> 00:49:42,195
And I've seen videos and so we're talking
about use of force events that are

796
00:49:42,195 --> 00:49:44,175
happening in fractions of a second here.

797
00:49:44,385 --> 00:49:44,775
Okay.

798
00:49:45,225 --> 00:49:50,175
So like a punch, for
example, 170 milliseconds.

799
00:49:50,235 --> 00:49:52,335
170 milliseconds.

800
00:49:52,335 --> 00:49:57,525
To give your listeners some perspective,
an eye blink is approximately 330

801
00:49:57,525 --> 00:50:03,345
milliseconds, the average eye blink,
so literally within the blink of an

802
00:50:03,345 --> 00:50:07,470
eye, you can miss a complete punch.

803
00:50:10,365 --> 00:50:15,765
Within the blink of an eye, you can
miss a stab or a slash with a knife.

804
00:50:16,065 --> 00:50:20,595
Those occur in about
140 to 170 milliseconds.

805
00:50:21,105 --> 00:50:28,515
So I and I have seen on video, so for
example, um, cell police, cell lockup

806
00:50:28,695 --> 00:50:34,275
video, those very complicated systems
that have multiple cameras in them,

807
00:50:34,965 --> 00:50:37,965
some of those cameras are gonna be
filming at eight frames per second.

808
00:50:37,965 --> 00:50:41,355
Some at 12 frames per second,
some at 30 frames per second.

809
00:50:41,355 --> 00:50:44,325
And it always changes, by the
way, it's never consistent.

810
00:50:44,325 --> 00:50:45,705
It changes constantly.

811
00:50:45,705 --> 00:50:45,765
Hmm.

812
00:50:46,455 --> 00:50:49,245
But I've seen videos where an in.

813
00:50:49,890 --> 00:50:59,100
Tire head turn and a spit has been missed
on an eight frame per second video.

814
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:00,840
And, and so here, here was the case.

815
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:05,700
A sergeant in a police lockup facility
went to get a drunken individual out of a

816
00:51:05,700 --> 00:51:10,320
cell because he was trying to pick a fight
with somebody else who was in in the cell.

817
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:11,790
They'd both been arrested separately.

818
00:51:11,790 --> 00:51:14,280
Not re but he's trying to pick
a fight with his cellmate.

819
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,910
So the sergeant thinking, well, he's
like, I'm gonna separate these two.

820
00:51:17,910 --> 00:51:20,370
So he goes and gets this
guy out of the cell and he's

821
00:51:20,370 --> 00:51:21,870
walking him down the corridor.

822
00:51:22,530 --> 00:51:27,660
And, uh, on the video, the first
video I was given to review this.

823
00:51:28,020 --> 00:51:31,800
What you see is as the sergeant's
escorting him down the hallway, suddenly

824
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:36,450
the sergeant, he comes up with an elbow,
right elbow, and he smacks the guy across

825
00:51:36,450 --> 00:51:41,010
the side of the fri of the, of the face,
across the jaw, knocks him out, guy falls

826
00:51:41,010 --> 00:51:45,810
to the ground, and you look at the video
and you go, oh my, that was horrible.

827
00:51:45,810 --> 00:51:46,800
That looked terrible.

828
00:51:47,340 --> 00:51:49,920
Well, what, what does the
sergeant say happened?

829
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,160
I, in his statement, he says,
I'm walking the guy down the

830
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:54,600
corridor to the next cell.

831
00:51:54,960 --> 00:52:01,110
And I hear, and I, he immediately
recognized this guy was welling up

832
00:52:01,110 --> 00:52:04,380
a, a big, uh, oyster, a hok on him.

833
00:52:04,650 --> 00:52:09,360
And he says, as I, as I begin to turn,
as I begin to turn my head towards

834
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,880
him, he spits right in, in my face.

835
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:18,060
And then he said, before I knew what
I had done, I hit him with the elbow.

836
00:52:18,300 --> 00:52:20,850
Now, look, I'm not
justifying the elbow strike.

837
00:52:20,850 --> 00:52:21,930
That's not the point here.

838
00:52:21,930 --> 00:52:26,760
The point is that why wasn't
it captured on the video?

839
00:52:27,765 --> 00:52:29,115
It wasn't on the video.

840
00:52:29,115 --> 00:52:33,165
So I called, I called up the,
um, agency that sent me the video

841
00:52:33,165 --> 00:52:37,424
and I said, Hey, do, do you have
any other video of this event?

842
00:52:37,424 --> 00:52:40,065
They said, oh, yeah, we got lots
of different cameras and angles,

843
00:52:40,065 --> 00:52:44,924
but we thought we'd just send you,
um, what had the best view of it.

844
00:52:44,924 --> 00:52:46,694
I said, I don't want the best view.

845
00:52:46,995 --> 00:52:48,645
I want all of the video.

846
00:52:48,645 --> 00:52:49,845
Send me everything.

847
00:52:50,325 --> 00:52:55,095
So I got, I think, a total of eight
different camera, uh, angles on that.

848
00:52:55,424 --> 00:52:59,234
And sure enough, the very next
video, uh, once I received it,

849
00:52:59,234 --> 00:53:00,794
I watch it, and there it is.

850
00:53:00,794 --> 00:53:04,754
You see the guy, the head turned
the spit on the officer's face.

851
00:53:05,174 --> 00:53:06,750
But if all you would've had.

852
00:53:07,710 --> 00:53:09,990
Was that first video, Travis,
you'd have looked at that and

853
00:53:09,990 --> 00:53:11,580
go, that officer is lying.

854
00:53:12,090 --> 00:53:12,930
He's lying.

855
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:14,040
That didn't happen.

856
00:53:14,340 --> 00:53:16,050
It was completely missed because of

857
00:53:16,530 --> 00:53:16,650
the

858
00:53:16,650 --> 00:53:17,430
frame rates.

859
00:53:17,580 --> 00:53:23,160
Um, another thing with video, especially
with body-worn camera, and this is really

860
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:31,860
significant, is because, um, body-worn
camera, well really even CCTV video

861
00:53:32,010 --> 00:53:33,870
uses what's called a fish eye lens.

862
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:34,710
Okay?

863
00:53:34,770 --> 00:53:40,950
So it's, it's a wonderful lens for
capturing out to about 150 to 170 degrees

864
00:53:41,460 --> 00:53:45,960
of what's happening in front of the
lens that's being worn on the officer.

865
00:53:46,830 --> 00:53:47,310
Mm. So

866
00:53:47,310 --> 00:53:53,610
it's great for capturing a whole lot
of data, but the problem is that is

867
00:53:53,610 --> 00:53:55,590
not at all how human vision works.

868
00:53:56,070 --> 00:53:58,020
So human vision works.

869
00:53:58,110 --> 00:54:00,840
We're about equivalent
to a 50 millimeter lens.

870
00:54:00,900 --> 00:54:06,840
Our eye is about a 50 millimeter lens and.

871
00:54:07,215 --> 00:54:12,225
What a fish island does is it
grossly distorts distances.

872
00:54:12,285 --> 00:54:19,575
It makes things look as though they
are much further away from us than what

873
00:54:19,575 --> 00:54:21,735
they actually are through human vision.

874
00:54:21,735 --> 00:54:23,865
So now why is that relevant?

875
00:54:24,134 --> 00:54:30,075
Well, let's say you have an individual
who's got a bat or a knife in their

876
00:54:30,075 --> 00:54:34,035
hand and they're coming towards an
officer, walking towards an officer,

877
00:54:34,035 --> 00:54:35,955
and he's challenging the individual.

878
00:54:37,035 --> 00:54:40,634
And then eventually the officer
makes the decision to shoot.

879
00:54:40,634 --> 00:54:44,985
Subject crosses his line in the sand,
and he decides to shoot this individual.

880
00:54:45,495 --> 00:54:49,215
So when we watch the body worn
video of that, now what it will look

881
00:54:49,215 --> 00:54:55,785
like on a fisheye lens is that the
subject was about twice as far away.

882
00:54:56,460 --> 00:54:58,259
As what he actually was.

883
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:02,220
So he may have only been eight
feet, 10 feet away from the officer,

884
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:06,720
but your perception of, of the
body-worn camera is it may look like

885
00:55:06,720 --> 00:55:09,630
he's 25 or 30 feet away from you.

886
00:55:10,290 --> 00:55:16,230
And, um, and that can be very important
because if we're holding officers to a

887
00:55:16,230 --> 00:55:20,430
standard of reasonableness, objective
and subjective reasonableness based

888
00:55:20,430 --> 00:55:25,380
on their perception, then we've
gotta be super careful with how

889
00:55:25,380 --> 00:55:27,600
we understand and interpret video.

890
00:55:27,720 --> 00:55:32,640
And I mean, those are just two things,
but there, there's like, um, 10 or

891
00:55:32,940 --> 00:55:38,490
12 critical things where video can
lead reviewers in a very dangerous

892
00:55:38,490 --> 00:55:40,230
direction if we're not careful with it.

893
00:55:40,230 --> 00:55:43,170
And, you know, I didn't, I don't
think I mentioned this earlier,

894
00:55:43,170 --> 00:55:48,000
but I've, I've got a three day
use of force investigators course.

895
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,310
I mean, you heard, you
heard me at the conference.

896
00:55:50,700 --> 00:55:53,375
Um, but, uh, I do have, mm-hmm.

897
00:55:53,535 --> 00:55:55,740
I, I have a three day
course where I go through.

898
00:55:56,475 --> 00:56:00,735
All of the Canadian law
on analyzing use of force.

899
00:56:00,735 --> 00:56:04,755
We go through all of the human
factors, implications of it.

900
00:56:04,815 --> 00:56:08,265
We go, uh, we have an
extensive section on video.

901
00:56:08,355 --> 00:56:11,205
Um, going through everything that
we just spoke about here, how to

902
00:56:11,205 --> 00:56:15,435
properly use video, how to seize
it correctly, how to analyze it

903
00:56:15,435 --> 00:56:17,415
correctly, understand it, interpret it.

904
00:56:18,075 --> 00:56:18,945
Very important.

905
00:56:19,065 --> 00:56:23,535
That was eyeopening to me when you were
first, we were chatting about video and

906
00:56:23,685 --> 00:56:26,325
how video is processed and how it works.

907
00:56:26,325 --> 00:56:30,645
And I've actually taken that and
I've applied it to my podcasting too.

908
00:56:31,125 --> 00:56:35,295
And it might kind of sound silly,
but just the knowledge that cameras

909
00:56:35,295 --> 00:56:37,150
will have predictive frames.

910
00:56:37,220 --> 00:56:41,835
Because if it's always taking in
every single pixel and every single

911
00:56:41,835 --> 00:56:44,835
bit of information all the time,
that's huge information overload.

912
00:56:45,015 --> 00:56:48,135
And when I'm having a podcast with
somebody and they've got poor bandwidth

913
00:56:48,405 --> 00:56:52,395
and they're a hand talker and they're
moving around, that's a lot more

914
00:56:52,395 --> 00:56:54,705
information that's being transmitted.

915
00:56:54,705 --> 00:56:58,155
'cause it's continually having
to refresh and not predict.

916
00:56:58,155 --> 00:57:00,435
Let's say like your background
there, the trainer's bullpen.

917
00:57:01,060 --> 00:57:04,720
And something that I found
that's helpful is I'll use that

918
00:57:04,720 --> 00:57:07,360
knowledge of these predictive
frame rates and say, you know what?

919
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:09,130
We've got a really poor connection.

920
00:57:09,130 --> 00:57:12,160
I can either turn off the video
and then we can just do audio.

921
00:57:12,370 --> 00:57:15,700
Or if you're able to stop moving
so much, it's gonna be less

922
00:57:15,700 --> 00:57:18,430
data transmission 'cause it's
gonna predict those frame rates.

923
00:57:18,460 --> 00:57:23,800
So that, that was an interesting little
thing that you probab probably wasn't

924
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:26,290
your point of your, your whole thing
when you're talking about it, but I've

925
00:57:26,290 --> 00:57:28,420
been able to apply it in, uh, what I do.

926
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:32,050
Yeah, no, that's, I I've never
heard that, uh, applied in that way

927
00:57:32,050 --> 00:57:33,550
before, but I mean, that's brilliant.

928
00:57:33,550 --> 00:57:35,290
You're exactly right.

929
00:57:35,290 --> 00:57:38,800
And I, I mean, most professional
photographers, like when they buy their

930
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:42,670
high-end equipment, they will go into
the settings and they'll set all of

931
00:57:42,670 --> 00:57:45,310
their settings to only record iframes.

932
00:57:45,790 --> 00:57:51,280
Um, um, and that gives of course,
the richest, most accurate, vivid

933
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:53,740
detail of what's actually happening.

934
00:57:53,740 --> 00:57:55,480
But, uh, the data.

935
00:57:56,085 --> 00:57:56,685
Storage.

936
00:57:56,685 --> 00:57:58,935
The data use on that is massive.

937
00:57:58,965 --> 00:57:59,835
It's massive.

938
00:58:00,465 --> 00:58:04,755
But our iPhones and smartphones
and, and things like that, they,

939
00:58:04,755 --> 00:58:06,015
they don't record that way.

940
00:58:06,195 --> 00:58:06,555
Um,

941
00:58:07,155 --> 00:58:11,415
well, you've also, so you touched
on something and that was the

942
00:58:11,415 --> 00:58:13,905
emotion, the emotion that's involved.

943
00:58:13,905 --> 00:58:17,685
You watch a video and you have a
visceral response one way or the other.

944
00:58:18,015 --> 00:58:21,795
I mean, people don't want to see something
that's not just, that's not right.

945
00:58:21,795 --> 00:58:23,265
That's violent in nature.

946
00:58:23,265 --> 00:58:24,555
It's, it's pretty natural.

947
00:58:25,695 --> 00:58:32,805
How often do you find the emotional
aspect heavily influencing the,

948
00:58:33,105 --> 00:58:34,365
let's say, the legal outcome?

949
00:58:34,395 --> 00:58:39,465
Like I look at like the Floyd example,
the George Floyd in the States, or was it

950
00:58:39,465 --> 00:58:44,895
Robert Zans here in, in Canada, and the
amount of media attention that surrounds

951
00:58:44,895 --> 00:58:46,635
it and the emotion that surrounds it.

952
00:58:47,565 --> 00:58:55,455
How subject are, are courts to being
influenced by that emotion or politics?

953
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:56,580
Yeah.

954
00:58:56,700 --> 00:59:05,340
So, you know, I think the courts
are less prone to be, um, influenced

955
00:59:05,340 --> 00:59:07,800
heavily by video in my experience.

956
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:12,060
And the reason for that is, is because by
the time something actually has got, gets

957
00:59:12,060 --> 00:59:17,070
into the court, we're now a year and a
half to two years, three years post-event.

958
00:59:17,460 --> 00:59:22,170
So the emo there's no
emotion, uh, to it anymore.

959
00:59:22,710 --> 00:59:26,940
And I think, you know, my experience
has been the judiciary for the

960
00:59:26,940 --> 00:59:33,690
most part is very alive to the fact
that video does not tell the story.

961
00:59:34,050 --> 00:59:35,370
And there's actually case law on that.

962
00:59:35,370 --> 00:59:40,230
There's like five or six really
instructive case, case law, uh, in

963
00:59:40,230 --> 00:59:47,460
Canada now, um, that helps guide
judges and juries into using video.

964
00:59:48,135 --> 00:59:48,795
Correctly.

965
00:59:48,825 --> 00:59:54,465
Like not, for example, not doing a
frame by frame analysis, not Um hmm.

966
00:59:54,525 --> 00:59:57,795
Because what, what happens is,
um, that's obviously not how

967
00:59:57,795 --> 00:59:59,325
we experience the world, right?

968
00:59:59,325 --> 01:00:04,605
And so you can't, you can't be slowing
something down, uh, something that

969
01:00:04,605 --> 01:00:09,435
happened in three seconds or five seconds
or whatever, and going in, uh, on this

970
01:00:09,435 --> 01:00:14,715
frame here, you can see clearly that the
individual was doing this and this person.

971
01:00:14,955 --> 01:00:19,125
Like, no, you, you, you know, uh,
and there's still, there's still

972
01:00:19,125 --> 01:00:23,355
Crown prosecutors who try to do that,
uh, despite case law says not to,

973
01:00:23,355 --> 01:00:29,685
but, um, here's where I, I see video
being the biggest, I think, stumbling

974
01:00:29,685 --> 01:00:34,515
block on an emotion side, and that's
the leadership in police agencies.

975
01:00:35,265 --> 01:00:36,470
Um mm-hmm.

976
01:00:36,705 --> 01:00:40,725
I've, I've had, I've had cases
and I, I have one recently here in

977
01:00:40,725 --> 01:00:44,595
Alberta where an officer's leader.

978
01:00:45,975 --> 01:00:52,545
They wanted this guy fired within
like less than 24 hours after this

979
01:00:52,605 --> 01:00:55,185
incident got uploaded to social media.

980
01:00:55,425 --> 01:00:57,225
Of course, you know,
that's what happens, right?

981
01:00:57,225 --> 01:00:59,385
And take a clip outta context.

982
01:00:59,715 --> 01:00:59,805
Mm-hmm.

983
01:01:00,045 --> 01:01:03,045
Um, and, and you don't even
know if the clips been modified.

984
01:01:03,615 --> 01:01:08,445
I mean, in today's age of ai, you don't
even know if that actually happened.

985
01:01:08,895 --> 01:01:10,365
And yet, and so here it is.

986
01:01:10,395 --> 01:01:10,545
Mm-hmm.

987
01:01:10,785 --> 01:01:16,605
Up uploaded to social media and you've
got, uh, white shirts who are wanting this

988
01:01:16,605 --> 01:01:19,545
caught fired within less than 24 hours.

989
01:01:20,025 --> 01:01:24,255
And this is where I, I see the
biggest failure is in strong

990
01:01:24,255 --> 01:01:30,045
leadership to understand a, what
is the fall fallibility of video?

991
01:01:30,045 --> 01:01:31,875
It doesn't tell us what actually happened.

992
01:01:31,875 --> 01:01:36,975
It may be largely an error,
it may be completely false.

993
01:01:37,515 --> 01:01:39,600
Um, but the reality is that.

994
01:01:40,335 --> 01:01:44,355
The public are going to be
emotionally invested in this video.

995
01:01:44,565 --> 01:01:48,285
So we recognize that we, you know,
you gotta stand in front of the

996
01:01:48,285 --> 01:01:55,695
public and say to them, and look, I,
I hope like this is, um, I hope we

997
01:01:55,695 --> 01:02:01,965
never reach a day in a society where
we cease to be horrified by seeing

998
01:02:01,965 --> 01:02:04,635
violence between human beings on video.

999
01:02:05,055 --> 01:02:06,585
Like we just become numb to it.

1000
01:02:06,585 --> 01:02:08,295
I hope we never get to that point.

1001
01:02:08,330 --> 01:02:08,610
Mm-hmm.

1002
01:02:09,075 --> 01:02:13,845
So in a sense, I understand when
the public sees a video that looks,

1003
01:02:14,415 --> 01:02:16,905
you're just trying to make sense
of it, it just looks horrible.

1004
01:02:17,535 --> 01:02:20,655
I understand the emotion and the anger.

1005
01:02:22,245 --> 01:02:26,805
Um, but stand up in front of
your people, stand as a leader,

1006
01:02:26,805 --> 01:02:28,035
stand in front of your people.

1007
01:02:28,095 --> 01:02:28,185
Mm-hmm.

1008
01:02:28,485 --> 01:02:32,355
You're at the tip of the spear and say,
look, so I understand what you've seen

1009
01:02:32,355 --> 01:02:37,125
on the video, I've seen it myself, and
I also have a lot of questions as to

1010
01:02:37,125 --> 01:02:38,775
what happened and why they happened.

1011
01:02:39,750 --> 01:02:45,240
And I commit to you that this
investigation will be very thorough.

1012
01:02:45,570 --> 01:02:47,970
It'll be neutral, it'll be fact finding.

1013
01:02:47,970 --> 01:02:52,200
And when we know exactly what happened,
I'm gonna report back to you as soon as

1014
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:54,870
we know the results of this investigation.

1015
01:02:54,870 --> 01:02:59,280
But until that time, I'm not going
to speculate on what occurred

1016
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:01,680
based on what I see on the video.

1017
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:06,390
And, you know, encourage them to
just be patient and wait, just

1018
01:03:06,420 --> 01:03:08,460
communicate well, like with the public.

1019
01:03:08,460 --> 01:03:11,490
It's, uh, it's not a hard thing to
do, but you gotta stand in front

1020
01:03:11,490 --> 01:03:13,290
of your people and protect them.

1021
01:03:13,650 --> 01:03:14,130
You gotta have some cahones.

1022
01:03:15,750 --> 01:03:16,050
Yeah.

1023
01:03:17,130 --> 01:03:18,030
Moral courage.

1024
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:18,810
Yeah.

1025
01:03:18,810 --> 01:03:22,560
And that's, it's, you have
to have moral courage.

1026
01:03:22,620 --> 01:03:24,120
And that's something that, uh,

1027
01:03:26,430 --> 01:03:28,410
isn't always, isn't always present.

1028
01:03:28,650 --> 01:03:31,770
That, uh, that's, uh, very well said.

1029
01:03:32,310 --> 01:03:35,400
Is, is there anything that
we should be talking about?

1030
01:03:35,985 --> 01:03:39,315
That we haven't talked about or that we
should be leaving the listeners with?

1031
01:03:39,345 --> 01:03:43,245
'cause I've got, I got so many
things here and I know I'm, uh,

1032
01:03:43,275 --> 01:03:45,255
we have compressed timeframe here.

1033
01:03:45,705 --> 01:03:47,985
There's a bunch of things that
we're gonna have to come back and

1034
01:03:47,985 --> 01:03:50,355
touch base on at a later date,
but is there anything we should be

1035
01:03:50,355 --> 01:03:52,005
talking about that, that we haven't?

1036
01:03:52,965 --> 01:03:53,955
Oh, no.

1037
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:55,424
I mean, I, I don't think so.

1038
01:03:55,515 --> 01:04:00,674
Um, I think we've had a great conversation
around the things that you asked about

1039
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:05,654
and, and I agree there's, there's all we
could be going on for, for a, a day or

1040
01:04:05,654 --> 01:04:08,174
two talking about all, all of this stuff.

1041
01:04:08,174 --> 01:04:10,904
But, uh, I appreciate the
opportunity just to come on and

1042
01:04:10,904 --> 01:04:12,225
have this conversation with you.

1043
01:04:12,975 --> 01:04:16,785
Chris, thank you so much for taking
the time to share your perspective.

1044
01:04:16,785 --> 01:04:20,775
For the listeners, take a look in the
description, there's gonna be links to

1045
01:04:20,775 --> 01:04:22,424
where you can find more about Chris.

1046
01:04:22,424 --> 01:04:28,065
You can find him on social media and
his website and, uh, follow his podcast.

1047
01:04:28,095 --> 01:04:29,085
The trainer's bullpen.

1048
01:04:29,115 --> 01:04:30,285
It's, it's amazing.

1049
01:04:30,285 --> 01:04:32,475
If you like this, there's
a lot more of that there.

1050
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:33,690
Thank you, Chris.

1051
01:04:33,750 --> 01:04:34,290
Thank you.

1052
01:04:34,290 --> 01:04:37,320
And can I, I just add on that, on
the trainers bullpen, like it's not

1053
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:39,630
behind a paywall or anything like that.

1054
01:04:39,630 --> 01:04:43,530
It's freely available and
accessible to trainers bullpen.com.

1055
01:04:43,740 --> 01:04:46,710
Trainers bullpen.com and we'll have
a link in the description as well.

1056
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:48,270
It was an absolute pleasure.

1057
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:49,380
I appreciate you.

1058
01:04:49,380 --> 01:04:49,750
Thank you, sir.