Travis  00:00
Like nature took over is the only way to describe it, and then my son was born, got to catch him, and at the time we didn't know, by the way, gender. We waited to find out at births, and then of course picking him up and realizing it's a boy, and then that was the whole huge level of excitement too, and that was amazing. It's just kind of funny at this point because people were shocked because we did home births. My wife is insane. We call home burst, and that's what she wanted. I'm like, all right, that's what you want. I will make it happen. The sleeplessness was insane. No other friends had kids with colic, and so no one could understand. And they were all sleeping. All their babies, like, I don't know, our babies sleep 12 hours a day. I'm like, dude, we're lucky if we get 20 minute increments. There was definitely some really hard moments too, of just sheer exhaustion, of just like crying, and just what do I do? We realized it wasn't us; it was just the sleep deprivation, and so we would remind ourselves of that when we'd be irritable with one another and like we haven't slept, like just push this off. And so that helped us have like a thing to kind of externalize it as well. But within those moments, though, I will say, amazing moments that I'll never forget of him just like sleeping on my chest and smelling his head. Like those are things that will always be there. I'll never not remember.

Steven Evans  01:25
Thank you, Travis, for being here and for being open and honest and willing to bring your story to our audience. And I think it's going to be an exciting story. So, what we'll do is cover sort of the transition crucible moments of your life from your early childhood, 1718, or so, jumping into the workforce, and then transitioning into actually working full time, finding a mate, and perhaps having children, and so on and so forth. But before we get there, would love if you wouldn't mind just taking 10 seconds just to introduce yourself,

Travis  01:59
Steve. I'm glad to be here, and thanks for inviting me on. And God, we got to do this. Name is Travis Goodman. I'm a dad. Got three kids. Married 16 years. Work as a licensed therapist, men's coach, content creator, things like that. Podcasting, and I teach and things like that. So I live in Costa, working Costa Mesa, California. SoCal is where I live and reside. So that's a very quick snapshot of me.

Steven Evans  02:20
Nice, thank you. No, it's it's excellent, and I think, especially when it comes to men's coaching and the ideology that you kind of bring, I think this will be awesome just to kind of dive a little deeper. You know, the best place is always to start at the beginning, and I'd love just if you wouldn't mind bringing us back to that time when you were just stepping out of home, maybe first either going to school or stepping into your first role as an 18-year-old. Bring us back to what that time was like and who you thought you were becoming.

Travis  02:52
Yeah, so it started with I would say senior year of high school. So I was 17 senior year, and my parents actually separated that year. So that's where the kind of story starts. Is that there was a shift of the family dynamic that wasn't expected. It was at a toy level field. There wasn't anything, any signs that would have been apparent. At least, you know, for me and my brother, there wasn't like yelling or fighting or anything that was like blatantly obvious. But they got separated, and my dad moved to San Diego, we were living in kind of Magic Mountain area, LA County, and then I finished my senior year. I went to an independent learning school. The school was at, I think, it all happened at the same time. So not only did my parents separate, I then switched schools. I was at a kind of a private school, and then I wanted to just. I had some friends who had more freedom, and like a lot of my friends were little, like a year older than me or two, and so they kind of were working and at high school. And a buddy of mine went to this independent learning school where you kind of went one day a week for an hour and then kind of work. And so I'm like, you know, I kind of want to do that. So I went there and started working in high school. I was working at the Gap Clothing in the mall. That was, I guess, was my first real job. I had I worked at a paintball shop before that, like in high school, and primarily to buy paintball equipment because it was expensive, and I got a discount, and I was into paintball a lot with my buddies. And so, I guess that was my first technical job that I got paid for with a check. But I guess that senior of high school, I worked like 30 hours a week, and was doing going to school, and just finished school, and then graduated from high school, and then started going to junior college. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I think early on, I was thinking my dad was in the military, so early on, I wanted to be you know like Top Gun was a big fan favorite of mine, so I wanted to be like a fighter pilot or a Navy SEAL. That was kind of like the two things, at least in high school. Then my parents separated, and I think at the time I didn't want to become a SEAL. And I think what kind of ingrained me was my parents separated. I remember talking to a lot of SEALs because my dad was in the Navy, so I was able to talk to these guys. And I remember hearing I was talking this Navy SEAL captain. And he was like on his third marriage, and I remember thinking, I'm like, I don't know if I want this life. I don't know if I want to have a. And at the time, my parents were separated, so I'm like, and I felt the pain of that. So I'm like, I don't know if I want this. So I went to junior college. Didn't know I wanted to do just taking whatever the basic classes are in junior college, general ed classes. No real direction because I think initially I thought I didn't want any more. I didn't know what I wanted or what I was good at, so I was trying to take taking whatever we should be taking for GE's. And then I think I met with the counselor and what should I do and get on these tracks to get to UC system schools. And I think at the time my dad said, "Hey, you should do something in math or engineering, some type of STEM degree just because they're hireable, and I was like, okay, I guess I'll pursue that, but no real passion. And then I moved to San Diego when I was about 19, and I went to San Diego State as an applied math major. Math came somewhat relatively easy for me, so I was like, okay, I guess I'll do that. My dad says I should do that.

Travis  05:59
You get hired, so I went to San Diego State first semester, and that was first time at big university. And my parents were back together at the time, trying their marriage or kind of whatever they were doing. Although it was kind of weird in the house, just kind of weird tension, just kind of silence a lot of times. So I kind of avoid the house as much as possible, and it was with friends just because it was like not nothing, nothing overt. It was just weird tension energy. So I just kind of went to school and hung with buddies, and then I remember I moved out because I couldn't take the tension anymore, and moved in with some roommates and lived in Ocean Beach, OB they call it for short, in San Diego. You know, four guys in a two bedroom, which I loved. I'm so glad I moved out at the time because it was just great, and then I stopped school because I remember doing the semester. And while there was some cool parts of it, I just had no passion. Yeah, and I'm like, if I'm paying for this because I I was paying for my own schooling, well, I want to care about it, and I don't want to pursue something that I just don't feel excited for, even though I can do it. So I decided to take a break. At the time, my dad was not very happy about that. I remember him being quite upset and just second guessing my decision. But I just felt this was the right thing for me to do. And at the time, I was working at Starbucks. I forgot to say that I stopped working at the Gap and then got a job at Starbucks, and I was working at Starbucks full time and did that for a little while. Timing is interesting. Looking back now, because this was well over 20 years ago,

Steven Evans  07:23
there's so much to also dive into. I mean, there's a lot that has happened in that time period, from when your parents separated to when you moved back to San Diego. I mean, there's a lot of change that has happened. Can you walk us through sort of perhaps the psychological landscape of that? All the transitions, maybe mom not being there as often, dad not being there as often. You mentioned the tension, so can you help us unpack that a little more?

Travis  07:48
Yeah, I think the tension was definitely senior of high school was palatable. My dad was gone, my mom was she was working. I didn't see her much, you know, being a senior in high school, and I was at the house a lot, so I just kind of wasn't there. I remember her being more reserved, more quiet. I think some level of depression she for sure hit, and then my brother got more angry, like externally. Now I have hindsight now, looking back of what that was. But at the time, I just remember thinking he was angry. He was getting to fights, and we would get into it at home. And I was trying to keep the peace and calm, so I was more collected externally. I would say. On the external side, I was calm. Now I know. Back then, I was internalizing a lot of my anger and sadness. I just didn't know how to express it. So that was definitely part of it. And then moving to San Diego, same thing. Just kind of the tension was there, kind of weird oddities. And my brother too was trying to figure his life out, and he was struggling, and and I was doing my thing, and I started dating. And looking back now, I was dating to not be alone and deal with it, and get in my parents' house. At the time, I didn't have that perspective, but for sure, that's what I was doing. I'd get into relationships to avoid being at home, I think, and not be around. But when I moved into my with my buddies, I was definitely better because it you know was my friends, so there wasn't this tension filled. So I was more kind of out of sight, out of mind. I would say with my family until like holidays came around, and then I'd feel it again. And so usually, inevitably, I'd be in a relationship just to have an outlet to go to. So that's kind of how I navigate early on.

Steven Evans  09:14
It sounded like it could be destabilizing, you know, like having that as a central element of a family unit.

Travis  09:21
Oh, for sure. Yeah, it was definitely destabilizing and uncertain because you know what you thought your family was. It was no longer, and it was to some degree breaking apart, and definitely uncertain as to how it would be. So there was still a lot of unknownness because they did a few times on and off again. So it'd be kind of like, okay, we're ending. So a sense of end, but oh no, they're trying again. So it kind of destabilized, sort of restabilized, kinda destabilized, kind of restabilized, destabilized again. So it happened like three or four times before it officially ended. So it was kind of a roller coaster. So I think by the end I was more numb to it until it finally ended.

Steven Evans  09:55
And was there anyone who maybe you can remember who kind of came alongside you and? That time and kind of was a point of stability for you. Maybe it was a friend or yeah, someone who gave you something during that time.

Travis  10:08
Yeah, I would say at least senior of high school when they first separated, there was men, older men like mentors that I was in relationship with that kind of became very stable for me that I could talk to, and I can see my brother did not have that. But I had these relationships. I really think that was incredibly helpful for me to have older male father figures in my life that asked me questions, would check in with me, and I had an outlet if I so choose. So that was quite significant. Now, when I moved to San Diego, I moved away from these guys, so definitely less of it. I had my friends, a good friend of mine, that I we we shared a room together. That he would listen to me, and so we would talk about it from time to time, and he would encourage me. So that was also helpful. So that was a good relationship. Most of the people I didn't really talk to about it. I mean, he knew because I we you know shared a room together, and that was very very helpful at the time. And there, you know, he was there for me. And but I, when I moved to the house, I didn't see my brothers much either, and my mom and my dad. I couldn't talk to them about it up, you know, for different reasons. They didn't know what they're doing either, so I didn't know how to talk to them about it either. So I didn't.

Steven Evans  11:21
And what were some of the lessons, or perhaps some of the takeaways from those guys who kind of stood in and tried to help?

Travis  11:29
Well, I think the lesson takeaways that the need for the need for relationship and mentorship, and the need for men to have other men in their life that have walked it either, like a mentor who's farther along who can have perspective? Because at the time I was well, 1718, 1920, So while I had perspective, my perspective was limited, being old, teenager, young adult. Where men that are in their 40s or 50s have more life experience that could speak into or hold more space. So I think that's number one: is having someone who has more experience? Who can kind of hold the space, but then also having peer, similar level because it's similar but different, right? So I see the need of that now. That I encourage people to have like kind of that mentor, peer, and mentee kind of like layers of relationships that you can give away. You can have something similar and support each other similarly, and also be on the similar life path as well. Someone that you could look up to and ask, kind of like a almost like a Gandalf or Yoda type of question, like "Hey, guide me" type of a thing.

Steven Evans  12:30
I agree. Agree. Yeah. Excellent. And like when it comes to the the I guess the next steps in the journey after you decided, you know, you would take a break from school. Where did that lead you?

Travis  12:43
Yeah, took a break, and then I found a degree. And my first degree is actually in theology, specifically Christian theology. So that was exciting for me. It's kind of like reading philosophy in a way. It's it's kind of these conceptual frameworks, and that I got easy A's in. So that I had like actually an excitement to learn, finished a bachelor's of that, and that brought me to move to Riverside County, which is still Southern California. But I moved away from the beach, away from my friends, because I felt this push to like pursue this, which was a big step for me because I left my you know all my friends at the time and moved to like height like a desert hot place away from the beach, and a lot of my friends thought I was crazy, but I had something inside me that said I needed to go, and so I kind of was really trying to listen to that guidance, that inner like inner voice, whatever whatever we want to call inner soul, spirit guidance, voice, wisdom, and so I did. This is where the story shifts again: is that first semester of grad program, my first weekend intensive, my mom called me and said, "Okay, we're officially getting divorced. And so I remember kind of looking out at the hills of Riverside, which are kind of these barren brown hills, just checking out a little bit, kind of feeling a little numb and kind of surreal. And my professor said, "Hey, you're all right. And I told him what happened, and he said, "Hey, I get it. If you can take a break, take a break. Don't worry about it. And then he suggested, "Hey, have you thought about talking to someone? And he specifically mentioned a therapist, and he gave me a name that never crossed my mind. But I respected him and trusted him, and so I said, "Sure, I'll go. Her name is Marianne. I started seeing her pretty much weekly. Didn't know what to expect. Just trusted my professor and just started doing it and started seeing her weekly. And she started essentially my therapy process. And so I started to unpack. You know, the the past at the time I was 22, I think, when I started therapy. So started to unpack the last, you know, the the most recent divorce and high school stuff and what happened and all the changes, and understanding my experience and my repressed anger and sadness and all the stuff I did to cope and how I was coping and managing and the stuff I wasn't talking about. So the whole thing, right? Start to unpack it all, and that began a different process for me.

Steven Evans  15:00
And I was there anything during this time that maybe surprised you or wasn't obvious on the surface? Maybe something that was building underneath throughout the maybe tension of your parents' marriage that, when it was finally over, came to the surface.

Travis  15:16
Well, I think that's when I began to realize in therapy that I was essentially using relationships to avoid my own loneliness and pain, so that was a big aha moment, and how I internalized my anger in a way. So that was kind of a two things that I now had an awareness of, and I couldn't not see it, which I'm very grateful for because then I began to change and do things differently, and I remember the time breaking up with a girlfriend and saying something to her, like for the first time, saying you know that whole "it's not you, it's me" thing, but actually meaning it. I'm actually realizing essentially I'm dating you, and she was a good person, very nice, sweet individual. But I said, "Hey, I can't. I think the main reason why I'm dating is because I'm just trying not to. I'm terrified of being alone and becoming like my parents. So I need to end this in a way now, because this is the right thing to do for you and for me. And so of course that hurt her. I knew that would. And it was not a fun conversation, but I remember seeing it and I couldn't not see it. I'm like, I have to do this. I have to end it. I can't continue because of my the real drive behind it, like the actual drive. So that surprised me. And then I kept doing work. And then my therapist said, "Hey, have you ever thought about becoming a therapist? And no, no, I didn't. And then I started to look into it, and that changed my path. And then decided to go back to school. Got a second bachelor's in psychology. That also came really easy to me. I got easy A's because I kind of read every book and soaked it up and got super stoked on it. Again, passionate about it, so I could tell I was in the right on the right path because I was excited to learn. I it wasn't like a drudgery of dragging my feet, I was like, "This is exciting and fascinating. Before, I didn't not because I had to do with passion. It wasn't because I couldn't do it. Is like I had no drive. Now I have drive, and so the A's were a byproduct of my drive. Versus, I have to get an A, you know.

Steven Evans  17:16
And I, I would say, walk us through what was underneath. There was that passion that then provided the the drive, but there must also have been additional people who were also along for the ride that maybe you met.

Travis  17:29
Yeah, I had at that time too, where I was in Riverside. I had some close friends that were similar, and then my therapist was in a way she was helpful to kind of speak some of that into me in a way that wasn't like manipulative, but was really genuine. Like, I see this, think about it, and so I would bounce ideas off her. And then I did have some other older males in my life, other mentors that I would facilitate going to coffee with and just picking their brains. and And then I developed a relationship with a couple that were older, and I really began to you know go to them as guides, so to speak, and they were influential and people to kind of get my bearings right. So I really started to I continued to seek out those types of relationships because of what it did for me, and that I knew that I needed that deep down. And so I would kind of always find those types of people that were willing. That was Cindy and Steve. Steve actually married my wife and I, so he became someone that I would really, hey, I have some fear about this and anxiety, but I have excitement. What do you see? And so I remember when I graduated, I think I even talked to him before I started the undergrad, the second degree, because I was I was afraid about being financially burdened by loans, and so he helped me kind of find my own why to do what I needed to do through his questioning, and so I would go to him often to say, "Hey, here's I'm thinking. Give me some perspective, type of a thing. Nice. So yeah, again, relationships and people that I trusted really were key into, I think, aiding me in my decisions along the way.

Steven Evans  19:00
And it really sounds like though it allowed you to reach a place that was more healthy than you had been in the past. Yeah, place where it sounds like you had a lot of clarity. You a place where you really not only from that clarity were able to find direction, but you could then use it for momentum. I mean, if you were to say at that time how long until the next milestone of I say meeting your partner,

Travis  19:27
I stopped dating and I was probably single for like almost two years, and then I met my now wife at the time through a friend, mutual friend, and they introduced us, and I was like 24, almost 25 when we met. Yeah, pretty quickly hit it off. And I remember when I was going on dates with her, getting to know her. I remember talking to my therapist, like, "Hey, I don't want to do the same thing I've done. So I'm really aware of it now. Like aware of, okay, am I feeling lonely? Am I trying to avoid something? So I was asking myself all these questions that I learned, and I'm like, okay, I'm not, I'm feeling lonely. Am I trying to avoid anything? We're nowhere near the holidays, so I know that like we're good, and I'm I'm feeling pretty good. So this is different. I remember it was something that was different. It clicked of like, okay, I'm not in the same mental emotional space as I was. I remember even telling her that on some of her dates. I told her I want to slow things down. I don't want to rush anything. It's something I worked on, and I want to be really mindful with you that I'm aware and asking myself these questions and so and she was receptive to that and I remember going in over the course of a few weeks we went quite a few dates and high emotionality absolutely you know head in the sky you know talking for like eight hours starting at 8o'clock at night talking till four a.m. in the morning and then being exhausted, and then getting sick inevitably because you know, two weeks of doing that, you have no immune system. And then we took a break. She visited her brother, and we're like, "Hey, let's just like take a week off of communicating, and not because we're scared or bad, but like let's just you know slow things down intentionally and make sure this is not just straight up emotions. Which, of course, there was a lot there. I can't deny that. But then she came back, and we took a week off of not talking. And then when she got back, it was like, "Oh my god, I'm so glad you're here. And and then we became, you know, official and started dating. And then a year later, we got married. Got married in 2010. And at that time, I finished my degree, my second degree, and I was doing night school. I was working full time during the day, and I was working for a tech company, like a domain hosting company, full time. I did full time night school, so I was pretty busy. I'd work, and then I'd go to school, and then I'd read. Choose a teacher, so she would often grade while I was reading, and we'd sit at coffee shops most evenings, kind of I guess body doubling, right? That term of both doing work and working towards something,

Steven Evans  21:43
right?

Travis  21:43
And then graduated there, and then applied for a master's program for graduate school.

Steven Evans  21:48
Wow! And like during that time, you are not only meeting someone new, but you're often always kind of merging two unique universes, as I like to say. You know, of complex emotions. I mean, after going through all that work personally, walk us through sort of what that was like in terms of you're studying for school. You have that as your priority, but you also are meeting this person who's changing your your world as well.

Travis  22:14
Well, early on, I mean, there was no really, and I say this not in a negative way to myself, but early on, of course, like poor awareness of just staying up till four a.m. you know, two weeks straight, and then not thinking there'd be a consequence of like you get sick, you know, and and you're sick. So I think quickly we both realized, hey, well, I love talking to you. We probably can't do this every night because you have a job, I have a job, and I'm doing school. So way to quickly find a new rhythm. So part of that, it was just having rhythm and making space and connecting and having fun and going on dates while I was still focused on school and work. And so we would fit it in and kind of hang out when we could and see each other. And I remember meeting her parents, the whole thing, and just getting to know them and her brothers and yeah, and then just doing different holidays together in a way because we started dating in you know August 2009. We had the first Thanksgiving and Halloween and Christmas and New Year's together and all that kind of stuff. And so we just kind of started doing that. And I was still doing therapy a little bit. I wasn't weekly at that time. I was probably doing once a month check in because I was doing pretty good. I didn't need weekly therapy at the time, and and then I remember even seeing my a therapist when we started getting serious and say, hey, let's go talk to her together and help her guide us on what to do and be aware. And so we did that for a few sessions. That helped

Steven Evans  23:32
us nice

Travis  23:32
kind of get some good things to be aware of. One thing I always remember my therapist saying is, hey, you want to learn how to fight well? How do you fight well? And kind of talking through what that might look like for us, and so we really took that to heart and began to do that, and and then just began to just get to know each other over the course of time and spending time together and doing life together. While she was working, you know, we kind of did adult things too, working and being responsible and all that kind of stuff. And

Steven Evans  23:57
right, all right,

Travis  23:58
and she was aware of my my journey too, and it was it was full time. I would say I would say busy time for sure, but definitely full. Yeah,

Steven Evans  24:05
definitely. I mean, it does sound a little romantic as well from the outside. In the coffee shop, got me. Yeah. Oh,

Travis  24:13
we definitely have those moments, the coffee shop moments for sure. And I mean, we met over playing a card game. We got invited to a card game, and that's how we met, so that was fun. And then I, I would say our flirting was probably at best like junior high esque. So I'm sure it was awful to watch, is my guess looking back now. But you know, definitely blindness to like the awareness of self. But I'm looking back, I'm like, I think he was pretty awful. Like we probably acted like we were teenagers.

Steven Evans  24:40
Well, hey, nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong. No, no, it worked out, so we're good. I can't.

Travis  24:43
It's fine. I'm, I'm willing to own it.

Steven Evans  24:46
Yeah, yeah. Oh man, and and you said that was in 2010. So then, yeah, 2009.

Steven Evans  24:51
Oh, 2009. We got married

Travis  24:53
in 2010.

Steven Evans  24:54
2010, perfect. And then from there, you know, you're working, or at least you. Your masters and how do you start at my

Travis  25:02
master's in 2010?

Steven Evans  25:03
Exactly. Then how do you transition from you know the master's journey to jumping into work?

Travis  25:11
So masters, I guess real quick for that, I was working full time during the day and doing night school, so I was pretty busy as well. My wife was still teaching; she was a fourth grade school teacher. So our first few years of marriage was. I mean, I was pretty busy. She'd work during the day. I worked during the day. Then I go to night school, and then we often would just be at home in our apartment studying together or at a coffee shop. Like she'd be grading papers, I'd be reading books and writing papers, and then on the weekends we'd you know cook breakfast and do relationship. But it was kind of doing life. And then I graduated grad school in 2014. Then then from grad school as a master's of science in counseling psychology, you know, just to get hours while you're in grad school, so many hours, intern hours to graduate, and then shortly after that, almost right away, I started working in private practice with a supervisor, and then at a pretty intensive partial hospitalization program, it's called PHP for short for kind of severe mental illness for the elderly. So I was doing that to get my hours because you have to have 3000 hours to get licensed in the state of California, and so that takes a little while to do that. And so my first, I guess, job as a therapist was private practice two nights a week, and then full time working for a partial program that was like a day program, primarily like kind of group therapy. And I was kind of a case manager too, like working with insurance and doing this stuff for like getting billing for services for the patients I worked with. So I did that for two years. Finished my hours in 2016, so I did it pretty quick. I mean, I think as quickly as you probably can go to get your hours, because I was focused on getting hours as quickly as I could. Only because you're not paid a lot. If I'm honest, it was like $20 an hour. So with a master's and doing therapy, if you do the math, there's jobs that are paid close to that that don't require any schooling at all. Just the nature of the world. I'm not going to talk about that. That's a different podcast episode, but I didn't know that either. And now that I know, I tell people, "Hey, let me let you know the path to become a therapist. There's a lot you need to know, and not to discourage you from, but you really need a why to do this job. And then, yeah, 2016 finished my hours, which was huge accomplishment. I remember we were trying to get pregnant. This is another big thing. It took us a little while to get pregnant. was not easy for us. Needed some extra aid and support with that. So infertility specialists. And when I finished my hours and I signed up for my licensing exam, because once you're done, you got to take these big exams to get licensed, which are really stressful because the pass rate's like I don't even know 50% or something, sale rate's pretty high. So you know everything boils down to passing this exam and getting your license. You could take it again, but you have to wait and pay more money. So it's just a stressful, right? It's like everything's leading up to this point. And so a week before I had my license to sit for my exam, we found out we were pregnant, which was it was that was a big moment because it was twofold. One, when we found out we're pregnant, we both didn't get excited because it was such a long process to get pregnant. So we both kind of I remember finding out we both like didn't talk. We both like just put a TV show on and just didn't talk to each other. But we both knew that we both had this awareness that I don't want to get excited about it. I don't want to get sad about it. I don't want to talk about it. I just want to just not think about it. That's what we did, and we're like, you know what? Let's take another pregnancy test in the morning, and just see if it's like real, which we did.

Travis  28:31
Still pregnant, and then we told our parents, "Oh my god! We I remember asking, like, "Can we be excited? Is this should we be excited? We both add that question, like, "Are we allowed to be excited just because of the roller coaster to get pregnant? And so I think I think we were allowed to. So we should go tell your parents. And so we did, and they were super excited. So I think their excitement helped us get excited in a way because of our journey with that. But then we found out because that my exam was in a week, and so my stress level went through the roof. I was already stressed for the exam, and then it just really multiplied by we're pregnant. Oh shit! I got to get licensed, and I got to not fail this thing because I got to now. I need to afford to live in California and not get paid peanuts, and so that was stressful. Long story short, I passed the exam first try, so I'm very grateful for that. And I do remember going to my car and just shaking uncontrollably from all the adrenaline and like stress coming off, like I never had that my entire life, and just just could not stop shaking. It was all that built up energy that I was not realizing. It kind of was where I was carrying, but not really, because my body said, "Hey, you're stressed out of your mind, so I'm now going to get all this energy out. And just I sat in my car, just like shaking, and that passed thankfully. And then I was able to be excited and tell everybody that I passed. So that was a big. That was a big moment. Long time coming of two years into undergrad, three years in a master's2, more years of getting hours. That's seven year process. Of it's a long time coming. Yeah, and I mean, was there ever during that time a sense or a place where you found yourself? Maybe not motivated, or where you felt like maybe the road ahead is too far. I would say I definitely had a moment of similar to the road is too far. Not that I wasn't motivated, but definitely there was definitely a time with high anxiety and fear. With can I actually do this? Especially, I think what hit me is when I saw him by the amount of student loans I had, and knowing I was graduating, and then knowing when I was getting paid at the time as an associate, and it's by the way from whatever that was 12 years ago to today, cost of living in California has skyrocketed. Even then, I was feeling stressed, but imagining now hearing what rent is for people, I'm just like, I don't understand. It's just insane. But at the time, I was feeling the pressure of like, okay, how can I pay this? I'm not going to do this. I'm never going to get a job. It's going to pay. It's just all the panic hitting me, and just really in fear and stuck for a little while. And then my wife was really good. She listened and really encouraged me. You know, when I told her what I was feeling, and was really good at just saying just confidence. And so that was really helpful. And then again, some other mentors of mine just sharing that with them, saying I'm like just spiraling, and they heard me and listened, and similar thing, just confidence and trust-not false confidence, but really genuine. I could feel it with them because they knew me. And while I still had some fear, still I still had concerns. It wasn't just gone, but it was more manageable. I wasn't crippled by it because there was. I remember a good week where I just I couldn't think, couldn't sleep. I was just thinking about it. That was definitely a hard week, but again, relationships significant for helping me navigate that inner struggle.

Steven Evans  31:37
Yeah, definitely. And when it comes to the ultimate achievement again on your master's and and seven years after starting, like walk us through that next transition of you know your wife and you are now expecting

Travis  31:50
graduated, got my license, were pregnant, I passed my exam. A guy knew at the at the church I was going to the time he worked for a big company called Kaiser. They're like a HMO. They're insurer. They're provider. They do medical, like doctors, physicians. They also do mental health. And so he was a manager at a clinic and said, "Hey, we're hiring. Kaiser is hiring. It's pretty good gig for you know full benefits package. This whole thing, you should check it out. And so I did. And he was not on the hiring community because of like conflict of interest, and so I took an interview at Kaiser Permanente, got offered two positions, which is pretty big deal at two different clinics, and I chose one and started that career. That was like a three month onboarding process to get into Kaiser. It's like getting hired for the government. It's like crazy background checks. It like literally is insane. I've never done anything like it. It's like the government FBI type of like level of investigation into your life. It's pretty intense, but thankfully they didn't find anything. I was good, and there's nothing to be found. But it was like in the moment, I remember thinking, "I'm like they're going to find something. I have no idea what they're going to find, but they're going to find something because, like, of course they're going to. I don't know. This is intense, but nothing was found. I was found clean, and so that was a big deal getting hired because that was a huge relief of okay, great salary, full medical benefits. So all these things I was terrified about was massively answered as far as like okay, I think I can do this. And at the time too, we were offered by her parents to buy her family home as a kid, which was a huge. At the same time, because we thought about moving out of state because of all the costs of living and things, and we had friends moving out of state for the very reasons. We almost moved, but her parents said, "What do you think about buying this home that we've had as a rental? Was the home she grew up in? We've been there now over 10 years in this home because that was a huge thing too-that big transitional thing for us to stay here in California and have a home and buy it and and start. And so that was the next phase was getting the home ready for our first son. He was born july 4 in 2017, which was a big moment for many reasons.

Steven Evans  33:58
My son, he was born in 2019, so not too long thereafter.

Travis  34:03
Yeah,

Steven Evans  34:04
yeah. My second

Travis  34:05
son was born in 2019, so

Steven Evans  34:06
yeah, it changes everything. It really does. Oh yeah. Oh,

Travis  34:09
dude, that's another major life transition is becoming apparent first time.

Steven Evans  34:13
Oh my gosh, I remember when he first started crying in the delivery room. It was just almost the loudest sort of thing we had heard, but it was so silent before, right? It was everyone was almost holding their breath, and then as soon as you hear him, is like, oh my gosh, it's an amazing, amazing moment.

Travis  34:30
It's crazy, yeah. And

Steven Evans  34:32
and I mean, that must have been overjoying, like having you know firstborn child, firstborn son, and something that you had hoped for for some time.

Travis  34:40
Yeah, it was massive, massive transition. We were, oh my god, we were so exhausted because her labor was incredibly long. So I've never been more tired in my life. And also in comparison, my other two kids were born. We had so much more energy because we was not like a 30-hour. It started on Sunday night because july 4 that year was a Tuesday. This I do remember. Just because it was so long and intense, she started feeling it Sunday night, and so of course we weren't sleeping. Like I think I dozed off, but she was feeling stuff happening Sunday night, and like, hey, we're go time on Monday because july 3 was the expected day, and we're like, okay, seems like it's happening. Didn't come out on july 3. It was long and arduous, and then it was just like I think he was born like five in the morning on july 4, so we were up. I don't even know how many hours we were awake for. I've never been awake that long, and I actually remember at the end when my wife was pushing. By the way, incredible what a moving body can do. Agree, insane. Just again, I think probably a whole other podcast episode just on that alone. But I remember at the end, like we're finally there. Like okay, it's like we're in that window. Okay, now things are like coming. Like nature took over is the only way to describe it, and that's how she would describe it. She's like, I don't know how it just nature took over, and then my son was born and got to catch him. And at the time, we didn't know, by the way, gender, a way to define that at birth, and so I didn't know if it's a young boy daughter or son. We had Danes picked out, and then of course picking him up and realizing it's a boy, and then that was the whole huge level of excitement too, and that was amazing. And then I remember just passing out on the bed because just not sleeping. So that was an incredible moment that I will always remember and cherish. And really, for all three of my kids, they were all amazing moments to catch all three of them. It's just kind of funny at this point because people were shocked because we did home bursts. My wife is insane. We call the home person. That's what she wanted. I'm like, all right, that's what you want. I will make it happen. We will do that, and I am your supporter, and we'll we'll do it. So that's what we did.

Steven Evans  36:30
Wow. And I mean, you have three, so you've definitely done the early days. You know, of those, yeah, you know, three times. Was there anything that sort of surprised you or kind of blindsided you in those early days.

Travis  36:42
Colic for sure. Colic was gnarly. The sleeplessness was insane because we were. I think in our friend group, no other friends had kids with colic, and so no one could understand. And they were all sleeping. All their babies, like I don't know, our babies sleep 12 hours a day. I'm like, dude, we're lucky if we get 20 minute increments. Like a whole level of sleep deprivation that I've never understood, and it was a rude awakening. That there was definitely majorly hard. I know any transition is difficult because you just don't have no grid for it, you have no framework. But I really think the sleeplessness added a whole other degree of difficulty. That, and I know there, you know, no kid sleeps perfectly through the night, but I think how colic affects is is different than kids without. Because I've had two kids with colic and one without, and there's a night and day difference. Like that was really hard. I remember just like taking trade off walking our island because the only way he would sleep is we'd have to move him. He'd have to constantly be moving, and so we would just be walking around our kitchen island and take shifts, like two hour shifts. Just okay, you go sleep. I'll just pace and just pace and walk and just. I got my steps, and I'll say that you know. Yeah, but it was hard, and there was definitely some really hard moments too of just sheer exhaustion of just like crying and just yeah, like what do I do? You know, am I bad? And then realizing colic is not you can't you can only do so much, and it's nothing wrong. It's just the body's figuring itself out. And then when it went away around the six month mark, that helped significantly when the body started to settle. So that was hard, and I think one thing it helped us too with our we'd get into we were getting into more arguments lately. I would say, and we we realized that wasn't us; it was just the sleep deprivation. And so we would remind ourselves of that when we'd be irritable with one another and like we haven't slept. Like, just push this off, and so that helped us have like a thing to kind of externalize it as well. But within those moments, though, I will say, amazing moments that I'll never forget of him just like sleeping on my chest and smelling his head. Like, those are things that will always be there as well. I'll never not remember. So I remember the difficulty as well as the phenomenal, amazing moments, but I have empathy for people who don't haven't slept, and so I could I could speak that into people. When I have friends now have kids, I'm like, dude, I get it. It is rough, and you know what? I'll come hold your baby for you to get to sleep. So now I offer that to people, because it really wasn't offered to us, and so I'm like, nope, we're gonna. And my wife's the same thing. I'll hold your baby. You go sleep, and I'm like, "Yep, got the kids. You go take care of your friend. We know how much that would help us, and let's go help other people. So that's kind of what we do now.

Steven Evans  39:10
Is

Travis  39:10
we know and what we really needed, and we're trying to help that with other people.

Steven Evans  39:15
Nice, that's amazing, and I'm sure it's it's been meaningful to those people as well. Like I can tell you when you know our firstborn, he also had colic, so it was something that it was it was a little it was challenging for us as well, just because we were worried if he was getting nutrition, but also if he was he was just constantly uncomfortable. So yeah,

Travis  39:34
it's hard, man.

Steven Evans  39:35
Absolutely, and I mean, when during those times, were you know were you also working, or how are you balancing? You know the other things.

Travis  39:43
I mean, I was working at Kaiser full time,

Steven Evans  39:45
right

Travis  39:46
during that, and then working two nights a week at private practice. Still, I had my foot in the door, and then when we had our second kid in 2019, July, I'm like, you know what? I can't do. I was working so much, and Kaiser required two evening hour two. Two nights a week, and so I was like, I'm like not seeing my kid as much. I'm working. I'm gone, and so I'm like, I have to drop one of the nights in primary practice. I just and I needed it because financially, I just had to afford to live and and pay for things. So it wasn't like I wanted to do it all. It's like I kind of had to. So I dropped one night a week. Had our second son. I was still gone three nights a week, but I would do mornings with him, so I was more the morning dad with him, and so I'd be early because my kids also were early AM risers, so I was too. My wife was the sleeper person, so I'd take the morning shifts and like be there and have that was my time with my kids, my son specifically. We'd go watch birds in the backyard, have my coffee, and they'd help me make my coffee. So it was kind of like that was my time, which I I cherish those moments and I love those moments. And then long my third my daughter in 2021 in December and still working full time at Kaiser. And then I was doing a lot of continuing education training and Kaiser would give us money to train every year, so I'd use every essentially as much as I could cent to train and further my training, education, and growing in my expertise and knowledge and skill sets and certifications. So I was doing that pretty much every year. On top of that, which brings me to the most recent major transition is at March of this year, I fully transitioned out of a corporate job, and I was doing other things along the way too. But fully out March of this year on full time my own. So I do full time therapy. I do coaching. I do men's group coaching. I do podcasting. I teach. I do content creation. So I do now kind of an array of things in my business, and that was a major transition as well this year. So that's something that I'm still navigating and finding my footing. But I'm grateful for all the opportunities and to have more space.

Steven Evans  41:40
Right, and it sounds like it also will allow you and has allowed you to be there in a better way for your family.

Travis  41:46
Yeah, I could easily like build my schedule around my kids' school schedules and not have to worry about asking for time off and dealing with a union and if it's approved or not. I get to the benefit. There's no perfect job. There's pros and cons of everything, but the big pro is I get to okay. I go to my son's thing and build my schedule around that, and I can do that, which I'm very grateful for. And I'm getting home earlier on days and not late, so I have more time now with my family. Now the drawback is I have more pressure to build my own business and make sure it's going, and that's the difficulty versus something that's given. But I tell people, what problem do you want to have? There's always a problem. There's no perfect anything, even relationship. It's like, is this a problem you want to solve or not? And so my own business became the problem I wanted to solve.

Steven Evans  42:29
And when it comes to that sort of before and after, I mean, it sounds like it has been driven by, of course, a move to be closer to family, but also to step out on your own and and make something you know sort of for yourself and by yourself in a way. I mean, what was what is that like?

Travis  42:47
I still have community. I'll say that. So it's not without community. I still have other therapists, coaching friends that are doing something similar that I talk to. I have other mentors I still talk to. So that's been a major theme. I think that's kept me along the way is relationships to bounce ideas off of, and not to do it alone. So while my business is me, I have relationships that I get support in and ask for help and guidance because it's. I think that's so important. If my story said anything, I think that's been a major theme: is that I've sought out that and I've created it. So even my latest peer support group, I kind of really push for like meeting once a month with other male therapists and coaches in my area for coffee once a month, and so we do that. And so now we have a chat group that we talk to, and these are guys that are also doing something similar, their own businesses, and so we just kind of connect and we talk about our businesses and and also just family stuff. So it's becoming that, so that's helpful, and I do like my own. I'm still learning because technically I'm only six months into my full own businesses. The different things that I do, I like that I do different things. I think I found over doing therapy for 12 years that sitting one on one with clients day in and day out is a lot. While I love it, it's also a lot of takes a lot of capacity. Yeah, and so what I like about what I do now is it gives me the capacity to do other things because I'm also a creative person, music, art, so that I don't have to sit one on one all day every day. So I get to also recharge and other things too, like creating music, creating content, having an interview. It's a different type of brain power for me,

Steven Evans  44:20
yeah.

Travis  44:20
And so it helps round out my capacity, and even my men's group coaching is different than sitting one on one with doing deep trauma work with someone. What I like

Steven Evans  44:28
it,

Travis  44:28
I will continue to do it. I just realize for how my brain works, I need different things to change my hat, so to speak, because it helps me stay sharp and effective and not get burnt out. I think that's what I'm looking at right now is what really gives me life and what what is generative to me, so I can pour back into not only my business but also for my family because that's most important is my family, and so I got to make sure that I'm caring for myself so I'm not burnt out when I go home because at the end while I was working at the other job I was feeling quite burnt out at the end and I didn't. Like that, I didn't like that it was affecting things around me. So I'm like, I got to make a change because this is just not generative enough. And so that was a big impetus for me to change too. Was just the end with years and years of doing it. I was like, okay, I think I'm burning out here with this this way of doing this type of work.

Steven Evans  45:15
And how do you make that call? You know, it sounds like you also had you know maybe folks around to help, but I mean that's a really challenging decision. Oftentimes, to say, okay, I'm really at my rope's end. I need to make a change.

Travis  45:28
Well, that brings us back to the beginning of 2025. I had a sense that I needed to do something different. I had an inkling, but I wasn't sure to take the leap or not. And so, how it happened is that there was a part-time position that opened up at Kaiser, and I'm like, I'll apply. It's all based on union standing, so it's all based on seniority. And I'm like, I get it or I don't. And so I got it because it's all based on seniority. That's kind of how they do things in a union. It's not like skill. It's just like you got top, you get first choice. I happen to have more seniority, got it. That put me down to 24 hours a week, so three days a week, and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna build my business on Mondays and Fridays, and just really build it and see what happens. And so I got to the point where I built it, so I can't, I don't have any more time. And the big telltale was as I was doing my private stuff, my own business, my wife could tell a major difference. She could tell the difference with the days I came home from my business versus the corporate business, and so she's like, and I could tell, and I knew, I knew it, but there was a season where I didn't have a choice. It was kind of like I just had to do this, and at the time, there's I don't think I could have stepped out and do my own business when I was having newborns and new kids because I I didn't have a lot of capacity. I was pretty drained, if I'm honest. I'm sure you could relate. Maybe like this stuff. It is just like in survival mode. Like I don't have a lot left here. I need to get through the day as effectively as I can. And so my kids were old enough. I was sleeping better, and I had more capacity. Like let me step out. And I got to the point my wife could tell. I'm like, yep, I think I need to make a change. I know this deep down, I've never done this before fully. I've done enough, but not 100% And so I'm like you know what I got to the point end of last year where I was full and I didn't want to add time on the weekends to do this. My wife said you can take Saturdays if you want because she was totally for me.

Steven Evans  47:11
Yeah, I'm

Travis  47:12
like I don't want to take a Saturday to add more. That sounds terrible to me. Like I appreciate you offering me to you to take the kids on Saturdays and like I and because you believe in me, but I don't want that because I'm I feel like I'm going to be super tanked. So I'm like I just need to jump, and so I waited and picked March to jump. Like hey, that's my launch point, and I just kind of had to take a leap of faith essentially and just jump, and I did, and I'm like okay here we go, and so I did, and I've been building. And there was a couple months I was like, I'm a little under what I need to be making right now. But I I knew that going in that there's going to be a growth period that that's it required that I have to, but I had to do that in order to grow. Right, I had to leave something in order to create space to then fill. And so there was a few months I was under what I needed to make financially. It is what it is. I kind of knew that going in, and but now I'm at the point where I'm like, kind of where I essentially where I need to be. Which, okay, so it took a few months, you know, from March to August, and so I'm grateful for it. And I've had some other new opportunities come along the way that was unexpected. That are other contract work that were like great. That's kind of what I needed to fill the financial to meet where I needed to be, and that was a nice surprise. That's just kind of cool. So things happened, I would say, along the way.

Steven Evans  48:31
Yeah, and I think that's been so so key in your story, sort of how things have have happened in a way that have opened doors for you, have provided when you really needed it, but it also is a result of your continued ability to stick to it, but also to be versatile and able to jump from one thing to the next when you're feeling like that one thing is just not a right fit anymore, especially when it comes to kind of evolving over the course of your life from student to even to now, so I think that's amazing, amazing arc. And thank you for sharing. And so, in closing, what I always like to ask is looking back across the full like arc of your life, not the the one that you sort of designed, but the one you actually lived. What's the thing that turned out to matter the most to you,

Travis  49:22
I would say that the nature and depth of relationships that was probably the biggest support system slash guide slash outlet. I mean, kind of everything. I don't think if it wasn't for the nature of relationships I had with others, I don't think I would be where I'm today without those. I truly believe that those those played pivotal pivotal roles and posed questions and also encouragement and belief that I needed. And without those outlets, support along with questions to challenge me to make me think, this is obviously a hypothesis. I don't know for sure. But I guess I would not be where I am today without those things. There's no way. I don't. I don't think so. I think I would have been not where I am today without those people. And as as being a guy and a father, I think men need it. Women need it too. But a lot of my work, I focus on men and fathers. I think men need that. A lot of men are alone, and I think men need good relationships that are peers and mentors ahead of them to help them be the guide, and I think that is really life-giving and generative for me and for for the men. So that's you know if I can encourage you know people listening like you know seek out good relationships, good peers, good mentors, or be a mentor yourself, mentee, be willing to share. I think that's something too. Be willing to give back if you know something. Not that if it tells someone to do, but be willing to hear and be generative. That's also important too, is to give your knowledge away if it's asked and be there, be willing to meet with someone for coffee. And even now, I'm willing with new grad students. If I have time, I'll meet with you. I'd love to and just share my experience because you don't know this. I do, and I'll share at least what happened to me, and this might help you. So I think there's something about giving back that's important too. This whole thing,

Steven Evans  51:02
100% Well, thank you for being here, and thank you for sharing your story and for telling the truth. It's been awesome. Thank you very much.

Travis  51:09
Yeah, man. Thank you.

Steven Evans  51:13
This has been the Missing Conversation. I'm Steve Evans. Thanks for listening. If something in there found you, if a moment hits somewhere you weren't expecting, just let it be there for a while. You don't have to sort it out right now. That's what this is for. Take care of yourself out there. And if you know a guy who needs to hear this one, you probably already know who he is. Send it to him.


Transcribed by https://otter.ai