WEBVTT 00:00:03.060 --> 00:00:07.140 Matt Abrahams: We are all members of multiple groups and teams, our 00:00:07.140 --> 00:00:10.290 families, our coworkers, our friends. 00:00:10.620 --> 00:00:14.700 The ability to communicate effectively in groups is critical. 00:00:15.180 --> 00:00:18.360 My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:18.360 --> 00:00:19.620 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:20.550 --> 00:00:24.150 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:25.650 --> 00:00:28.620 Today I am really excited to spend time with Colin Fisher. 00:00:28.980 --> 00:00:32.940 Colin is an associate professor of organizations and innovation at University 00:00:32.940 --> 00:00:34.830 College London School of Management. 00:00:35.250 --> 00:00:38.730 His research focuses on helping groups and teams in situations 00:00:38.730 --> 00:00:43.110 requiring creativity, improvisation, and complex decision making. 00:00:43.290 --> 00:00:48.360 His latest book is The Collective Edge: Unlocking The Secret Power of Groups. 00:00:48.660 --> 00:00:49.560 Welcome, Colin. 00:00:49.710 --> 00:00:51.595 I'm really excited for our conversation. 00:00:52.279 --> 00:00:53.480 Colin Fisher: Thanks so much for having me, Matt. 00:00:53.480 --> 00:00:54.169 Looking forward to it. 00:00:54.780 --> 00:00:55.290 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:00:55.290 --> 00:00:56.160 Shall we get started? 00:00:56.460 --> 00:00:56.820 Colin Fisher: Yeah. 00:00:57.210 --> 00:01:01.380 Matt Abrahams: Like you, I have long been fascinated by groups and their impact. 00:01:01.830 --> 00:01:04.860 I used to teach classes on group communication, and I always 00:01:04.860 --> 00:01:08.700 start by talking to my students about the benefits and perils of 00:01:08.700 --> 00:01:11.460 groups, so I thought it would make sense for us to start there too. 00:01:11.850 --> 00:01:14.820 From your perspective, can you share what are the advantages 00:01:14.820 --> 00:01:19.140 and some of the disadvantages of groups and the work we do in them? 00:01:19.530 --> 00:01:23.160 Colin Fisher: The advantages of groups are, on some level, they're almost so 00:01:23.160 --> 00:01:28.080 obvious we don't even think about them, that we bring more minds to the problem. 00:01:28.080 --> 00:01:32.790 We bring more people's labor, that the idea that many hands make light 00:01:32.790 --> 00:01:35.670 the work, is why we come to groups. 00:01:35.670 --> 00:01:41.490 We can accomplish things that we could never do if we tried to go it alone. 00:01:41.880 --> 00:01:47.505 Groups can be, in my mind, the pinnacle of human accomplishment. 00:01:47.685 --> 00:01:51.195 But as your question implies, there's some downsides too. 00:01:51.884 --> 00:01:59.595 Groups can also be these engines to produce conformity, to really restrict 00:01:59.595 --> 00:02:04.304 people's individuality, that we have terms like group think or you know, that 00:02:04.304 --> 00:02:08.835 we call these groups, that have these extreme conformity pressures to be cults. 00:02:09.185 --> 00:02:14.370 And that groups have all these tendencies within them as well to restrict us to, 00:02:14.370 --> 00:02:19.590 to take away our individuality and to sometimes make us the worst versions of 00:02:19.590 --> 00:02:24.959 ourselves where they bring out of us this kind of tribalism that is at the root 00:02:24.990 --> 00:02:29.250 of war and intergroup conflict and all kinds of terrible things in the world. 00:02:29.250 --> 00:02:31.500 So, so groups really are this dichotomy. 00:02:31.905 --> 00:02:32.625 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:02:32.625 --> 00:02:35.505 On one side we have this notion of creativity, which really 00:02:35.505 --> 00:02:37.155 can bring out the best in us. 00:02:37.155 --> 00:02:41.265 And then we have on the other side, extreme conformity, which can really 00:02:41.265 --> 00:02:42.975 lead to a lot of negative things. 00:02:42.975 --> 00:02:47.595 So the trick becomes how do we maximize for the benefits of groups 00:02:47.595 --> 00:02:49.334 and minimize for those negatives? 00:02:49.334 --> 00:02:54.105 So what are key ingredients for successful teams, teaming, and teamwork. 00:02:54.165 --> 00:02:59.174 I think about things like diversity of participation, psychological safety, 00:02:59.174 --> 00:03:00.614 having clear purpose, clear roles. 00:03:01.375 --> 00:03:04.255 What do you see as some of the most important aspects 00:03:04.255 --> 00:03:05.364 for successful group work? 00:03:06.015 --> 00:03:09.225 Colin Fisher: You got some of the really important ones right off the bat there. 00:03:09.435 --> 00:03:14.565 The benefits of groups come from having diverse knowledge, 00:03:14.565 --> 00:03:16.095 skills, and perspectives. 00:03:16.095 --> 00:03:20.745 The, the kind of synergy that we talk about in group work really only 00:03:20.745 --> 00:03:24.045 emerges when we don't all think the same thing, when we don't all have 00:03:24.045 --> 00:03:28.275 the same knowledge and skills, and that we share them with one another. 00:03:28.485 --> 00:03:31.125 So we need to compose groups carefully. 00:03:31.605 --> 00:03:36.180 But one of the things that we often make a mistake in when we compose them is that 00:03:36.180 --> 00:03:42.360 we don't think about how big those groups should be, and so we end up often with 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:45.450 groups most commonly that are too big. 00:03:45.870 --> 00:03:48.540 Prototypical example of these are meetings. 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:53.310 We can all imagine one of the worst things to be in is a meeting that's 00:03:53.310 --> 00:03:56.820 got twenty people in it, because we know we're not gonna be able to 00:03:56.820 --> 00:03:58.590 really hear everyone's perspective. 00:03:58.590 --> 00:04:01.830 We're not gonna be able to know what everyone knows, what everyone thinks. 00:04:02.205 --> 00:04:06.105 The only thing worse than this meeting of twenty people is a meeting with 00:04:06.195 --> 00:04:08.325 twenty-five people or thirty people. 00:04:08.505 --> 00:04:12.645 We have to be thoughtful about how big a group can really be to have 00:04:12.645 --> 00:04:14.745 this kind of synergistic interaction. 00:04:15.255 --> 00:04:18.285 Matt Abrahams: So I'm curious, what does the research say about group size? 00:04:18.285 --> 00:04:19.904 Is there an ideal group size? 00:04:19.904 --> 00:04:22.285 Does it depend on the task you're trying to complete? 00:04:22.635 --> 00:04:24.990 Colin Fisher: It does depend on the task you're trying to complete. 00:04:25.140 --> 00:04:29.070 I like to give a fairly definitive answer to this because it doesn't depend as 00:04:29.070 --> 00:04:30.659 much on the task as we'd like to think. 00:04:31.110 --> 00:04:36.180 One is a line of research that looks across different tasks at the effect 00:04:36.180 --> 00:04:40.320 of group size on team performance, and the there you get answers depending on 00:04:40.320 --> 00:04:42.750 the task, anywhere from three to seven. 00:04:43.050 --> 00:04:47.940 But then when you ask people, when do you feel like the groups 00:04:47.969 --> 00:04:49.920 you're in are too big or too small? 00:04:50.310 --> 00:04:54.600 You get the line of my group is too big and my group is too small, they 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:57.159 cross, right about four point five. 00:04:57.450 --> 00:05:02.400 We feel that groups are the right size between four and five, and 00:05:02.400 --> 00:05:06.480 that we see performance measures be anywhere from three to seven. 00:05:06.930 --> 00:05:10.170 And so I think those are pretty good guidelines for thinking about 00:05:10.170 --> 00:05:11.370 how big your group should be. 00:05:11.789 --> 00:05:14.820 Matt Abrahams: I think having an anchor for group size is really important 00:05:14.820 --> 00:05:18.989 because there's a tendency to want to include more people, or perhaps because 00:05:18.989 --> 00:05:23.310 other communication challenges exist within an organization, meetings become 00:05:23.310 --> 00:05:25.109 the only way to convey information. 00:05:25.109 --> 00:05:29.310 So more is better, is often the mindset, but it sounds like that's not the case. 00:05:29.640 --> 00:05:33.270 I'd like to dig a little deeper into a couple of the other aspects. 00:05:33.299 --> 00:05:37.289 We had Amy Edmondson on, we talked a bit about psychological safety. 00:05:37.530 --> 00:05:43.320 Curious to get your perspective on how we go about building groups that can be 00:05:43.320 --> 00:05:47.309 more effective by making sure that those diverse points of view and perspectives 00:05:47.309 --> 00:05:48.719 feel comfortable being shared. 00:05:49.020 --> 00:05:51.299 Colin Fisher: If you've talked to Amy, you've really gotten the 00:05:51.299 --> 00:05:52.830 best advice that's out there. 00:05:53.159 --> 00:05:57.975 Psychological safety, as you were saying, it's so important because even if we get 00:05:58.215 --> 00:06:03.735 this diverse mix of knowledge, skills, and perspectives onto our team, we still 00:06:03.735 --> 00:06:06.975 aren't gonna take advantage of it unless people are comfortable sharing it. 00:06:07.335 --> 00:06:09.615 They're comfortable speaking up with different ideas. 00:06:09.615 --> 00:06:12.045 They're comfortable asking questions. 00:06:12.165 --> 00:06:16.335 They're comfortable admitting mistakes and trying experiments and failing. 00:06:16.665 --> 00:06:22.005 And the way that we build that psychological safety is that first 00:06:22.265 --> 00:06:26.495 we ask for it, that we say the work that we're gonna be doing is gonna 00:06:26.495 --> 00:06:30.750 require us to share our different knowledge, skills, and perspectives. 00:06:30.840 --> 00:06:34.710 It's gonna require us to take risks, that we're gonna have some things to learn. 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:38.909 And that's always true because any new team has to figure out 00:06:38.909 --> 00:06:40.380 how to work together at a minimum. 00:06:40.380 --> 00:06:43.469 They've gotta figure out how to communicate, and they're going to need 00:06:43.469 --> 00:06:47.010 to do some of this learning and some of this experimentation to make it happen. 00:06:47.219 --> 00:06:53.100 Another way that you can build this kind of psychological safety is to model it. 00:06:53.250 --> 00:06:58.844 So especially if you're a leader for you to admit your own mistakes, for you to 00:06:58.844 --> 00:07:04.395 ask questions that you might worry are dumb questions, for you to do experiments 00:07:04.395 --> 00:07:05.985 and say, hey, I'm learning too. 00:07:06.225 --> 00:07:07.425 This is what I'm gonna try. 00:07:07.425 --> 00:07:08.625 Let's see how it goes. 00:07:08.835 --> 00:07:10.785 And to model those kinds of behaviors. 00:07:11.085 --> 00:07:16.005 And then of course, to not shoot the messenger and not to, when people do 00:07:16.005 --> 00:07:19.815 speak up, they do share their ideas, they do ask questions that are on their 00:07:19.815 --> 00:07:23.925 mind, that you reinforce that with positive reinforcement, you encourage it. 00:07:24.390 --> 00:07:27.330 You don't criticize people for doing those things. 00:07:27.780 --> 00:07:32.489 Matt Abrahams: So it's about setting expectations for this sharing of 00:07:32.489 --> 00:07:36.150 different viewpoints that mistakes are acceptable and actually needed 00:07:36.179 --> 00:07:38.190 for the group to be successful. 00:07:38.609 --> 00:07:42.719 And as a leader or somebody who has a leadership role, demonstrating this 00:07:42.719 --> 00:07:46.049 in your own actions, role modeling, I think those are great ways to 00:07:46.229 --> 00:07:49.950 help people understand that this is important and reinforce these values. 00:07:50.460 --> 00:07:54.239 Are there certain things we can do when a group forms that really 00:07:54.239 --> 00:07:56.460 helps set us on a path of success? 00:07:56.820 --> 00:08:00.060 You know, this notion of forming sometimes happens very quickly. 00:08:00.060 --> 00:08:02.250 There's a crisis and we have to pull people together. 00:08:02.669 --> 00:08:04.349 Other times it's more thoughtful. 00:08:04.530 --> 00:08:08.880 Can you give two or three best practices for group formation that 00:08:08.880 --> 00:08:10.530 can really set you on a good path? 00:08:11.265 --> 00:08:15.854 Colin Fisher: So group formation is such an important time in a group's life 00:08:16.034 --> 00:08:21.375 that the stuff that we do when we first get together tends to be really sticky. 00:08:21.674 --> 00:08:25.515 We all can imagine the first time we meet with a new group at work or a 00:08:25.515 --> 00:08:30.945 new class at school, people tend to sit in the same place the whole time. 00:08:30.945 --> 00:08:34.275 Where we sit, who talks first, who talks the most. 00:08:34.635 --> 00:08:38.655 These kinds of norms form really early, and so we wanna 00:08:38.655 --> 00:08:39.975 manage that really carefully. 00:08:40.280 --> 00:08:44.150 Now with group formation, some of the work should happen 00:08:44.150 --> 00:08:45.290 before we ever get in the room. 00:08:45.829 --> 00:08:50.180 The work of thinking about the task, thinking about composing that group 00:08:50.180 --> 00:08:53.870 well, the group size and diversity of knowledge, skills, and perspectives, all 00:08:53.870 --> 00:08:56.000 those things should be done ahead of time. 00:08:56.300 --> 00:08:59.540 But then once we're, what I would call launching the group, 00:08:59.930 --> 00:09:01.219 and there's three big tasks. 00:09:01.800 --> 00:09:04.530 One is we need to bring that goal to life and make sure we 00:09:04.530 --> 00:09:06.090 all understand it similarly. 00:09:06.330 --> 00:09:11.280 So we need to have a very clear and vivid communication of that goal. 00:09:11.700 --> 00:09:16.170 So the kind of classic business school examples of these are like 00:09:16.230 --> 00:09:22.020 when John F. Kennedy repurposed NASA, which had a very ambiguous goal, 00:09:22.020 --> 00:09:27.180 prior to his charge, for them to put a man on the moon within ten years. 00:09:27.555 --> 00:09:31.245 So that was a very clear, vivid goal that everyone can imagine. 00:09:31.395 --> 00:09:36.675 So even if we don't have a clear idea of what we need to do first, or what 00:09:36.675 --> 00:09:41.475 we need to do tomorrow, the fact that we can all imagine the future vividly, 00:09:41.535 --> 00:09:46.005 that we need to get to collectively, allowed people to stay coordinated 00:09:46.005 --> 00:09:47.985 and to synchronize their efforts. 00:09:48.835 --> 00:09:53.245 So we need these kinds of clear, vivid goals to, to get us together. 00:09:53.605 --> 00:09:56.755 And then second, we need to establish these initial norms. 00:09:56.755 --> 00:10:00.895 So the fact that norms are sticky and they form really fast, we can use 00:10:00.895 --> 00:10:05.335 that to our advantage by doing some of the things we talked about when we're 00:10:05.335 --> 00:10:07.045 establishing psychological safety. 00:10:07.345 --> 00:10:12.745 To say, I wanna have a team where we all share what we know, where we speak up when 00:10:12.745 --> 00:10:15.655 we have an idea, and how can we do that. 00:10:16.215 --> 00:10:17.535 We can have that conversation. 00:10:17.895 --> 00:10:20.565 But the most important things I think are close to your heart 00:10:20.565 --> 00:10:22.245 are norms about communication. 00:10:22.605 --> 00:10:24.915 How are we gonna communicate with one another? 00:10:25.275 --> 00:10:29.775 And that some of these are really basic things like, what communication 00:10:29.775 --> 00:10:30.990 channels are we even going to use? 00:10:31.890 --> 00:10:36.120 I can't tell you how many teams I've seen where some people are communicating 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:39.480 through one channel, and a few people don't use that channel, don't know. 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:43.170 So some people aren't signed up for Slack, they don't get notifications, 00:10:43.170 --> 00:10:45.390 they don't know what's being said there. 00:10:45.540 --> 00:10:49.920 So some of it's really basic about where are we gonna communicate, but 00:10:49.920 --> 00:10:54.030 then we also need norms for how quickly are we responding to each other. 00:10:54.450 --> 00:10:58.470 That, when do I think you haven't seen this email, is it one day, two 00:10:58.470 --> 00:11:02.655 days, a week, you know, and that different teams can have different 00:11:02.655 --> 00:11:06.704 norms, but as long as we're clear, we can communicate effectively. 00:11:06.944 --> 00:11:12.615 And then we need to have understanding of the individual responsibilities 00:11:12.615 --> 00:11:16.785 and work that we're gonna have between now and the next time we talk. 00:11:17.175 --> 00:11:20.415 And this could be the beginnings of roles, they could be really 00:11:20.415 --> 00:11:25.425 formal roles, but that needs to be clear what I need to do between now 00:11:25.425 --> 00:11:28.305 and the next time we're gonna be collectively accountable to one another. 00:11:28.935 --> 00:11:32.535 So if we do those three things, that we have clear vivid goals, we have 00:11:32.535 --> 00:11:35.955 norms, especially norms for how we're gonna communicate and that they're 00:11:35.955 --> 00:11:40.875 promoting psychological safety, and we know what our responsibilities are, 00:11:40.965 --> 00:11:45.225 and we know the deadline by which those responsibilities to the group are set, 00:11:45.735 --> 00:11:47.085 then we have a pretty darn good launch. 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:51.959 Matt Abrahams: Vivid goals that people are aligned towards, norms, which are simply 00:11:51.959 --> 00:11:57.000 just expectations for what and how we will interact, and responsibilities for 00:11:57.000 --> 00:11:58.469 the actions that we'll follow up with. 00:11:59.130 --> 00:11:59.939 Very important. 00:11:59.939 --> 00:12:03.870 And, and the key thing you've said there is that work has to happen in advance. 00:12:03.870 --> 00:12:06.810 We have to think about these things before we pull people together. 00:12:06.810 --> 00:12:08.910 And in fact, thinking about these things might determine who 00:12:08.910 --> 00:12:10.104 we pull together and how many. 00:12:11.085 --> 00:12:15.405 I wanna switch now and talk about the way in which we do group work, 00:12:15.405 --> 00:12:19.814 which is primarily meetings and most people don't like meetings. 00:12:20.535 --> 00:12:26.324 What is your advice on how to make the group time in meetings more effective? 00:12:26.324 --> 00:12:28.215 What are things we can do to have better meetings? 00:12:28.920 --> 00:12:32.190 Colin Fisher: So that's a great question, and it's such a common one. 00:12:32.250 --> 00:12:35.400 Sometimes I ask myself the same thing in my organization. 00:12:35.850 --> 00:12:40.440 The number one tip is to not ask what can I do to have a better 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:44.430 meeting, but to ask should we have this meeting in the first place. 00:12:44.970 --> 00:12:48.135 As we said, norms are really sticky. 00:12:48.375 --> 00:12:52.665 And so if we start having this norm that we're gonna have boring meetings, that 00:12:52.665 --> 00:12:56.445 people are gonna be disengaged and not speak in these meetings, not contribute 00:12:56.445 --> 00:13:00.915 what they know, that norm's likely to stick even if we go from a meeting 00:13:00.975 --> 00:13:04.875 that really wasn't necessary and that was one way communication, information 00:13:04.875 --> 00:13:08.295 sharing, and the next time we have a meeting where we do need people to 00:13:08.295 --> 00:13:10.635 speak up, they're less likely to do it. 00:13:10.905 --> 00:13:16.765 So eliminating those meetings that we didn't need has the added benefits of 00:13:16.765 --> 00:13:21.895 you're gonna start to develop better norms for how people contribute in the meetings, 00:13:21.955 --> 00:13:23.515 where you really need their contribution. 00:13:23.515 --> 00:13:27.715 So step one, eliminate unnecessary meetings, and that will make the 00:13:27.715 --> 00:13:29.335 meetings you do have much better. 00:13:29.455 --> 00:13:34.615 But then step two is likely you are inviting too many 00:13:34.615 --> 00:13:35.815 people to these meetings. 00:13:36.025 --> 00:13:40.285 So just like we said, when we wanna get real work done and we wanna 00:13:40.285 --> 00:13:43.435 have everyone's contributions, we wanna know what they think. 00:13:43.965 --> 00:13:47.175 We wanna have them participate in decision making, communicate well. 00:13:47.715 --> 00:13:51.525 We really need to have this kind of core group of three to 00:13:51.525 --> 00:13:53.625 seven people around the table. 00:13:53.775 --> 00:13:58.395 Once we've even got a group of ten, if I've got an hour long meeting and 00:13:58.395 --> 00:14:01.965 a group of ten, especially if they're ten academics like us, or it's in 00:14:01.965 --> 00:14:05.865 the university situation, the chances that we're gonna get through that and 00:14:05.865 --> 00:14:10.005 everyone's going to say everything that they have to say is really low. 00:14:10.710 --> 00:14:13.440 And if we're over ten, if we're fifteen, we're twenty, we're 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:15.030 twenty-five, it's almost none. 00:14:15.390 --> 00:14:17.340 There's almost no way we're gonna have that meeting. 00:14:17.550 --> 00:14:22.770 So if we can have meetings that have very concrete outcomes, that we're 00:14:22.770 --> 00:14:28.035 there to make a decision, we're there to generate new ideas, we're there to 00:14:28.155 --> 00:14:32.295 develop a new strategy, that there's some reason that we're meeting, it's 00:14:32.295 --> 00:14:36.615 clear to all members, and then we invite people who have something 00:14:36.615 --> 00:14:41.025 really to contribute towards that goal, we're likely to have better meetings. 00:14:41.475 --> 00:14:45.435 One way communication, if it could have been an email, or if you prefer it 00:14:45.435 --> 00:14:49.905 could have been a video message or an audio message to the team, then do that. 00:14:49.995 --> 00:14:53.135 Don't have a meeting, but that when you do have meetings, they have 00:14:53.135 --> 00:14:57.395 clear purposes, they have agendas, and only the people who need to be 00:14:57.395 --> 00:15:00.125 there are invited to those meetings. 00:15:00.365 --> 00:15:03.185 That's gonna go a long way towards improving your meetings. 00:15:03.935 --> 00:15:04.535 Matt Abrahams: Amen. 00:15:04.535 --> 00:15:05.495 Do we need a meeting? 00:15:05.944 --> 00:15:07.535 Are there other ways to communicate? 00:15:07.745 --> 00:15:09.485 Super important first question. 00:15:09.814 --> 00:15:11.735 Then what are we meeting for? 00:15:11.735 --> 00:15:12.875 What's the purpose? 00:15:12.905 --> 00:15:14.285 Do we have a clear agenda? 00:15:14.375 --> 00:15:15.545 Does everybody understand it? 00:15:15.545 --> 00:15:16.084 Excellent. 00:15:16.800 --> 00:15:21.660 Then finally being willing to cancel a meeting or not hold a meeting if 00:15:21.660 --> 00:15:23.430 not necessary, really important. 00:15:23.850 --> 00:15:24.900 Thank you for sharing that. 00:15:24.900 --> 00:15:28.920 And may everybody adopt that and may meetings be what they truly can be, which 00:15:28.920 --> 00:15:33.180 is really productive opportunities to accomplish work and to feel connected. 00:15:33.180 --> 00:15:33.810 So thank you. 00:15:35.100 --> 00:15:36.990 Colin, this has been a fantastic conversation. 00:15:36.990 --> 00:15:40.170 Before we end, I like to ask three questions of my guests. 00:15:40.170 --> 00:15:43.380 One I create just for you, and the other two are similar across 00:15:43.380 --> 00:15:44.310 everybody I've interviewed. 00:15:44.310 --> 00:15:45.000 Are you up for that? 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:46.319 Colin Fisher: Yeah, absolutely. 00:15:46.500 --> 00:15:48.030 Matt Abrahams: So there's so many things about you that 00:15:48.030 --> 00:15:49.380 are really interesting to me. 00:15:49.410 --> 00:15:52.530 One is you're a professional jazz trumpeter. 00:15:52.530 --> 00:15:56.400 I tried to play the trumpet early in my life and failed miserably, so I'm in awe 00:15:56.400 --> 00:15:57.915 of your ability to do it professionally. 00:15:58.375 --> 00:16:01.495 What is one thing that you've learned as a professional jazz trumpeter 00:16:01.495 --> 00:16:04.945 that has helped you in terms of how you interact with people in groups? 00:16:05.305 --> 00:16:08.725 Colin Fisher: The essence of all kinds of music really is listening. 00:16:08.785 --> 00:16:13.915 I had a really famous teacher, his name was Bob Brookmeyer, who said, when 00:16:13.915 --> 00:16:17.605 you're improvising, you have to keep one ear on your head and you have to take 00:16:17.605 --> 00:16:21.985 the other ear and put it over on the piano, oversee the whole interaction. 00:16:22.225 --> 00:16:26.430 And so I think it's made me listen in different ways. 00:16:26.430 --> 00:16:30.420 It's made me more open to both what somebody who's speaking is 00:16:30.420 --> 00:16:34.229 saying and the whole ensemble of the group of the communication. 00:16:34.439 --> 00:16:37.560 And just to really attune me to the importance of listening. 00:16:38.069 --> 00:16:41.579 Matt Abrahams: It always amazes me that people who study and teach communication 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:46.110 come back to listening, and it's an important lesson for all of us. 00:16:46.110 --> 00:16:49.020 We think of communication as broadcasting, getting information out, 00:16:49.020 --> 00:16:50.550 but receiving it is really important. 00:16:50.550 --> 00:16:51.480 Thank you for sharing that. 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:55.590 Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:16:56.040 --> 00:17:02.280 Colin Fisher: I have to continue to give credit to my mentor, Richard Hackman, who 00:17:02.460 --> 00:17:09.720 I owe so much of the book too as well, who took this complicated world of groups 00:17:09.930 --> 00:17:11.490 and really started to give order to it. 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:16.540 I think what I respect about him as a communicator was finding 00:17:16.600 --> 00:17:19.270 terms that were really accurate. 00:17:19.510 --> 00:17:22.270 His famous theory is work design, right? 00:17:22.360 --> 00:17:26.560 And that's not like a fancy academic set of terms. 00:17:26.560 --> 00:17:30.370 I make fun of the term group entitativity in the book where it's like we come 00:17:30.370 --> 00:17:34.140 up with these like mouthfuls of things that are really hard to say. 00:17:34.450 --> 00:17:40.034 But just calling it work design theory already was such a powerful communication 00:17:40.034 --> 00:17:44.715 move to not only be clear within the academic community, but also to be 00:17:44.715 --> 00:17:48.975 clear to everyone else about what it is we should be paying attention to 00:17:49.034 --> 00:17:52.605 that we weren't paying attention to at the time, which was the tasks and 00:17:52.605 --> 00:17:55.574 the way that we are thinking about structuring the work that we do. 00:17:55.725 --> 00:17:59.715 So I think he would be one of the best communicators that I've encountered. 00:18:00.210 --> 00:18:02.670 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for sharing that, and thank you for reinforcing 00:18:02.670 --> 00:18:07.080 the idea of clarity, concision, accessibility, are really important. 00:18:07.410 --> 00:18:08.730 Final question for you, Colin. 00:18:08.760 --> 00:18:12.720 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:18:13.695 --> 00:18:16.485 Colin Fisher: So I'm going to say listening again. 00:18:16.905 --> 00:18:22.185 When I first started studying teams, I thought I was gonna see these people who 00:18:22.335 --> 00:18:27.255 were these expert diagnosers of group dynamics, that they were gonna walk into 00:18:27.255 --> 00:18:30.135 a room and they'd look at a team and go, oh, I know what's wrong with you. 00:18:30.550 --> 00:18:34.450 Instead, when I started studying these great coaches of teams, what they 00:18:34.450 --> 00:18:37.720 did was they asked more questions. 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:39.400 They said, oh, how are you doing? 00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:41.260 So they didn't magically diagnose people. 00:18:41.260 --> 00:18:43.480 They asked them what was going on. 00:18:43.810 --> 00:18:50.740 You ask questions, you listen to the answer, and then you respond in ways 00:18:51.195 --> 00:18:56.505 that both show you're concerned with that person's intent and wellbeing 00:18:56.505 --> 00:18:59.775 and emotional message that they had, but then you build on it and 00:18:59.775 --> 00:19:04.425 it's this kind of idea we find in theater improvisation of yes and-ing. 00:19:04.575 --> 00:19:07.995 That you say, yeah, I see what you're saying and now I'm 00:19:07.995 --> 00:19:09.405 gonna add something onto it. 00:19:09.555 --> 00:19:14.925 So I think if we ask good questions, we listen to the answer, and then we both 00:19:14.925 --> 00:19:18.915 respond and build on those responses, we're gonna have some great communication. 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:21.060 Matt Abrahams: Excellent three ingredients. 00:19:21.120 --> 00:19:22.770 I echo that very much. 00:19:22.770 --> 00:19:24.360 I think those are really important. 00:19:24.515 --> 00:19:29.564 Ask questions, listen genuinely to the answers, and we've done a lot of episodes 00:19:29.564 --> 00:19:33.675 on the value of improv and this notion of responding and adding to what people say. 00:19:33.945 --> 00:19:37.845 Colin, thank you so much for bringing insight into a type of 00:19:37.845 --> 00:19:39.855 communication that we all do all day. 00:19:40.740 --> 00:19:42.720 We are parts of many different groups. 00:19:42.899 --> 00:19:46.410 Learning to be more effective in how we establish groups, how we make 00:19:46.410 --> 00:19:51.870 groups work better, and ultimately, how we feel more productive, really 00:19:51.870 --> 00:19:53.070 can be helpful for all of us. 00:19:53.070 --> 00:19:53.940 Thank you for your time. 00:19:54.300 --> 00:19:55.620 Colin Fisher: Thanks so much for having me, Matt. 00:19:57.930 --> 00:19:59.879 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:19:59.879 --> 00:20:02.310 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:20:02.610 --> 00:20:05.520 To learn more about setting groups up for success, please listen to 00:20:05.520 --> 00:20:07.860 episode 174 with Priya Parker. 00:20:08.250 --> 00:20:12.990 And to improve your meetings, check out both episodes, 125 and 125 with 00:20:12.990 --> 00:20:15.570 Joe Allen, Karin Reed, and Elise Keith. 00:20:16.274 --> 00:20:21.345 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:20:21.554 --> 00:20:23.115 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:20:23.264 --> 00:20:25.845 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:20:26.235 --> 00:20:29.625 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:20:29.804 --> 00:20:31.935 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:20:32.235 --> 00:20:34.485 Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram. 00:20:34.514 --> 00:20:39.014 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:20:39.014 --> 00:20:41.294 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:20:41.715 --> 00:20:45.585 Please consider our premium offering before extended Deep Thinks episodes, 00:20:45.675 --> 00:20:51.255 Ask Matt Anythings, and much more at fastersmarter.io/premium.