WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:03.728 --> 00:00:08.138 The following episode is a conversation with myself and mark is Umansky. 00:00:08.198 --> 00:00:12.248 We weren't sure if we were going to release it, we decided to record, 00:00:12.608 --> 00:00:16.868 uh, just, uh, A little one-on-one brainstorm session that we had 00:00:16.868 --> 00:00:18.158 just chatting about WordPress. 00:00:18.158 --> 00:00:19.088 We were recording it. 00:00:19.118 --> 00:00:20.678 Wasn't sure if we were going to release it. 00:00:21.128 --> 00:00:22.448 I am going to release it. 00:00:22.688 --> 00:00:24.758 It's a rather long conversation. 00:00:24.818 --> 00:00:28.238 Ideas is a little bit all over the place, but generally you talking about. 00:00:29.058 --> 00:00:33.178 who WordPress's for, how we approach The marketing, the 00:00:33.178 --> 00:00:35.608 messaging around WordPress who? 00:00:35.638 --> 00:00:36.658 WordPress reel. 00:00:37.438 --> 00:00:40.768 Quote, unquote enemy is in the space who our competition is, 00:00:41.038 --> 00:00:42.838 what could bring WordPress down. 00:00:43.418 --> 00:00:44.498 and all of those fun topics. 00:00:44.498 --> 00:00:49.868 So sit back, relax, grab your favorite drink and a kickback to listen to mark. 00:00:49.868 --> 00:00:51.878 And I chat about some WordPress stuff. 00:01:22.750 --> 00:01:26.380 Mark: Obviously we chat via DM quite frequently on different things. 00:01:26.380 --> 00:01:27.380 Cause you are my. 00:01:28.935 --> 00:01:33.965 One of my mentors in this space kind of like to Run things by you a lot 00:01:33.965 --> 00:01:36.035 of times when I see them because I know you've been in here for a long 00:01:36.035 --> 00:01:41.415 time Just try to get your insights Obviously, I watch a lot of your content. 00:01:41.415 --> 00:01:46.515 I think When was the most recent one where you were talking about like the cycles? 00:01:46.735 --> 00:01:50.205 Oh, you're with WP tonic Yeah, and you're talking about the cycles how you've seen 00:01:50.205 --> 00:01:55.070 all these things before so sure being You Slightly, I like to consider myself 00:01:55.070 --> 00:01:56.630 some sort of an inquisitive person. 00:01:56.660 --> 00:02:02.160 I like to think of and utilize the experience of my elders. 00:02:02.160 --> 00:02:04.600 Not to say you're old, but my elders, like yourself. 00:02:05.130 --> 00:02:06.660 So, I just like to run things by you. 00:02:06.660 --> 00:02:11.640 And I guess some of the most recent events that we have seen in the WordPress 00:02:11.640 --> 00:02:16.350 community were a couple things about, Like blogging and I would, I always 00:02:16.350 --> 00:02:17.740 like to blow it up to bigger concepts. 00:02:17.740 --> 00:02:21.040 Obviously we use examples, because that's what kind of like triggers 00:02:21.040 --> 00:02:25.610 the conversation, but just kind of like ways that plugins, market 00:02:25.610 --> 00:02:29.890 their content, different blogging tactics, things like that. 00:02:29.900 --> 00:02:31.670 Just the messaging surrounding all that. 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:32.790 That's really interesting. 00:02:32.810 --> 00:02:39.810 And then as a subset, premium versus free tools, that I feel would be 00:02:39.810 --> 00:02:42.470 more directed towards people that are actually purchasing, right? 00:02:42.470 --> 00:02:44.020 The end users or the agencies. 00:02:44.020 --> 00:02:46.420 That's another big topic that has been on my mind recently. 00:02:46.930 --> 00:02:47.900 Have some thoughts there. 00:02:47.920 --> 00:02:52.680 And then, also just in general, you know, kind of how we're, I guess how 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:55.530 we're navigating this, I think I had another, I had another thought was just 00:02:55.530 --> 00:02:59.220 like thinking about the end user versus thinking about like developers in the 00:02:59.220 --> 00:03:02.580 community in a sense, because those are two vastly different audiences. 00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:04.150 And I feel like a lot of times we don't have. 00:03:05.790 --> 00:03:09.180 We're thinking like we're doing something good for one party, but 00:03:09.180 --> 00:03:11.840 we're actually the other party and we don't have the proper perspective. 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:14.630 So I think that's another big thing that we need to continue 00:03:14.630 --> 00:03:15.760 to navigate in this space. 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:16.930 Matt: Let's start with that. 00:03:17.040 --> 00:03:21.780 let's start with, you know, so let me, let me return a question back to you. 00:03:21.830 --> 00:03:26.335 Are you saying we're, it's, we're having that same discussion of, Who is 00:03:26.335 --> 00:03:30.515 WordPress for is when you were thinking about that last question, are you 00:03:30.515 --> 00:03:34.555 thinking Oh man, we're still stuck in the throes of who, what, who is this for? 00:03:34.565 --> 00:03:36.625 How do we talk to these end users? 00:03:36.825 --> 00:03:40.975 If it's for, you know, if it's for like the basic blogger or website builder, 00:03:40.975 --> 00:03:45.705 are we even using that, that kind of, you know, copy to reach these people? 00:03:45.765 --> 00:03:47.485 Like what, how does that break down in your head? 00:03:48.665 --> 00:03:55.160 Mark: I think that What I see is that there's a lot of, speculation 00:03:55.170 --> 00:03:58.090 and just I feel like you feel that something is one way. 00:03:58.090 --> 00:04:00.760 So then you say it's one way, and I'm, I'm probably guilty of this. 00:04:00.760 --> 00:04:02.030 I'm just trying to observe. 00:04:02.040 --> 00:04:07.000 Cause I would like to, I would like to move forward in the most productive 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:08.420 way possible surrounding this. 00:04:08.420 --> 00:04:09.730 I feel like this is a real fundamental block. 00:04:09.750 --> 00:04:14.570 So to kind of answer your question, I don't necessarily know per se 00:04:14.670 --> 00:04:18.290 who WordPress is for, if I was thinking about how to solve that. 00:04:18.675 --> 00:04:20.065 Or, you know, figure that answer out. 00:04:20.365 --> 00:04:22.275 It would probably be relatively simple. 00:04:22.275 --> 00:04:23.205 I just don't know if we can. 00:04:23.205 --> 00:04:24.795 Because I've kind of posed the question before. 00:04:24.795 --> 00:04:29.225 It's if there's 800 million websites, WordPress installs, then I feel like it 00:04:29.225 --> 00:04:32.765 would just be simple to know how many of those were like, single individuals 00:04:32.765 --> 00:04:34.855 building like one, maybe two websites. 00:04:35.195 --> 00:04:35.445 Right? 00:04:35.455 --> 00:04:37.495 you're building the website to build the website, versus you're 00:04:37.585 --> 00:04:41.295 building the website to make money and build other people's websites. 00:04:41.295 --> 00:04:42.110 It's really as, as simple as that. 00:04:42.590 --> 00:04:43.840 broken down as I can say it. 00:04:44.060 --> 00:04:47.690 So if we just say pros is anybody that's building websites for other people and 00:04:47.690 --> 00:04:50.720 DIYers are people that are just building websites basically for themselves. 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:53.470 if we could get any sort of data on that, then we could 00:04:53.470 --> 00:04:55.750 easily know who the majority is. 00:04:56.070 --> 00:05:00.210 I feel like the majority might actually be the DIY crew, but I don't actually know. 00:05:00.690 --> 00:05:02.100 and either way is fine. 00:05:02.100 --> 00:05:03.060 I don't really care either way. 00:05:03.060 --> 00:05:05.900 I just would love to know that and then from there the question is, 00:05:05.900 --> 00:05:09.515 okay, well, if If the platform is for them, that's totally fine, but we need 00:05:09.515 --> 00:05:12.605 to make sure we're talking to them and getting their opinions, because 00:05:12.605 --> 00:05:15.605 they're not going to be building the platform, but they could be shaping 00:05:15.605 --> 00:05:18.275 it if we actually get their insight. 00:05:18.305 --> 00:05:18.915 You know what I mean? 00:05:18.915 --> 00:05:23.185 It's kind of like, it's for them, don't you want to know what your audience 00:05:23.185 --> 00:05:24.745 needs, wants and everything like that? 00:05:24.815 --> 00:05:27.605 I'm not saying we're not doing any of this, I'm just saying that, that's, that's 00:05:27.605 --> 00:05:30.355 kind of the topic I feel like, because there's a lot of conversations that 00:05:30.355 --> 00:05:32.075 seem like we're not doing that in a way. 00:05:32.075 --> 00:05:32.455 Matt: Right. 00:05:32.455 --> 00:05:32.775 Right. 00:05:32.855 --> 00:05:33.715 And you think that. 00:05:35.280 --> 00:05:39.580 Based on some of the stuff that you've seen lately, let's say, you 00:05:39.580 --> 00:05:43.240 know, free versus commercial plugins or some of this content marketing 00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:47.480 stuff, you think that has a direct effect or, or these are just unrelated 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:49.320 topics that you're just curious about? 00:05:49.760 --> 00:05:52.370 Mark: I mean, they're all related in the sense of their WordPress and 00:05:52.370 --> 00:05:55.180 you have to navigate these things if you're in this space because 00:05:55.180 --> 00:05:58.280 it is like robust yet complex. 00:05:58.290 --> 00:06:00.780 It's there's, it's a lot of benefits, a lot of, a lot of pros, a lot of cons. 00:06:01.635 --> 00:06:06.165 But, the free versus premium thing is, the way I would relate that is 00:06:06.165 --> 00:06:11.815 that if you are a DIYer, you may want the cheapest solution all the 00:06:11.815 --> 00:06:14.305 time, and that may work for you. 00:06:14.345 --> 00:06:16.715 But as soon as you start building websites for other agencies, I 00:06:16.715 --> 00:06:18.795 went through it myself, because we're all DIYers at one point. 00:06:19.085 --> 00:06:22.005 As soon as you start building websites for other people, then 00:06:22.005 --> 00:06:24.415 you have to start to consider, well I am making money from this. 00:06:24.415 --> 00:06:26.515 It just becomes more of a business conversation. 00:06:26.525 --> 00:06:27.615 I'm making money from this. 00:06:28.005 --> 00:06:29.285 Do I want more headaches? 00:06:29.405 --> 00:06:30.535 Do I want more hiccups? 00:06:30.735 --> 00:06:34.175 Do I want, do, people don't think about like the longevity of the product. 00:06:34.185 --> 00:06:35.085 It's it's business. 00:06:35.095 --> 00:06:40.015 people are not going to continue to build XYZ form plugin, XYZ page 00:06:40.015 --> 00:06:42.345 builder without being compensated. 00:06:42.675 --> 00:06:46.495 You know, so those, I feel like those are kind of like 202 topics 00:06:46.895 --> 00:06:51.515 that, but they really start to rear their head when you start to actually 00:06:51.515 --> 00:06:56.410 consider what, what you should be doing from a, A non DIY perspective. 00:06:56.420 --> 00:06:59.340 So again, it's two separate conversations, but it is, it kind of all blends 00:06:59.340 --> 00:07:02.960 together as far as, you know, whether you should choose free or paid or when 00:07:02.960 --> 00:07:04.830 or why, and those types of things. 00:07:05.700 --> 00:07:05.910 Matt: Yeah. 00:07:05.910 --> 00:07:11.330 I mean, I, you know, I still, for me, the, the end user is still 00:07:11.330 --> 00:07:13.480 largely going to be that DIY person, 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:17.380 Mark: you know, Can you define that? 00:07:17.390 --> 00:07:18.570 Can you define that for me though? 00:07:18.620 --> 00:07:19.730 what your definition of that is? 00:07:22.005 --> 00:07:29.205 Matt: Well, I mean, I would say it is anyone who Wanted to get a website, 00:07:29.425 --> 00:07:32.385 anyone who wanted to get a website up that just wanted to literally 00:07:32.385 --> 00:07:36.905 do it themselves and it could range from, You know, I don't know. 00:07:36.905 --> 00:07:42.045 It could range from you're in business and you're selling pottery and you're 00:07:42.045 --> 00:07:43.575 trying to get something off the ground. 00:07:43.955 --> 00:07:48.205 You are just somebody who likes to put up, photos. 00:07:48.205 --> 00:07:49.205 You're a photographer. 00:07:49.645 --> 00:07:50.665 you're a blogger. 00:07:50.665 --> 00:07:50.885 You're a blogger. 00:07:51.945 --> 00:07:57.085 I think the, the, the depth of end user for WordPress is just so deep. 00:07:57.975 --> 00:08:00.425 you know, the difference is, is many of them are coming through, 00:08:01.335 --> 00:08:04.255 well, they all, I mean, 99. 00:08:04.255 --> 00:08:08.455 9 percent of them are all coming through a, web hosting company. 00:08:08.885 --> 00:08:13.665 so, you know, those web hosts are largely the ones responsible for recruiting 00:08:13.665 --> 00:08:15.805 and retaining these types of end users. 00:08:15.815 --> 00:08:21.950 So, you know, if you're trying to figure out like, how or what types of customers 00:08:21.950 --> 00:08:23.730 these are, because we don't have the data. 00:08:24.300 --> 00:08:28.020 you know, it's, it's to look to, in a way that I would look at it, is look 00:08:28.020 --> 00:08:32.690 at the largest web hosts in the world and, and look at their marketing and how 00:08:32.700 --> 00:08:35.380 they try to attract, you know, users. 00:08:35.970 --> 00:08:40.337 there are plenty of people who, and then, then there's massive percentage of people 00:08:40.337 --> 00:08:42.520 who just don't even know it's WordPress. 00:08:43.290 --> 00:08:46.670 don't care, don't know that they're even using WordPress. 00:08:46.690 --> 00:08:50.480 And that is either because they just literally aren't paying attention. 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:53.970 Like they're just literally not paying attention when they're building this 00:08:53.970 --> 00:08:55.400 website that they signed up for. 00:08:55.870 --> 00:08:59.810 And somebody just threw WordPress at them, like a web host, you know, 00:08:59.820 --> 00:09:04.140 or there's some layer of software on, you know, on top of this stuff. 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:09.490 And yeah, it is a massively fragmented space. 00:09:10.345 --> 00:09:15.935 And I don't think we'll ever have the definite answer of like hard percentages, 00:09:16.745 --> 00:09:21.195 you know, you can just, try to summarize how much, how many websites you've 00:09:21.195 --> 00:09:24.755 launched, how many websites other professionals have launched, and try 00:09:24.755 --> 00:09:27.995 to get an idea of for the professional WordPress community, like the ones 00:09:27.995 --> 00:09:32.295 who are always talking about it every day of, of how many websites they're 00:09:32.295 --> 00:09:37.645 responsible for, for launching, you know, and it's, A massive amount to write the 00:09:37.645 --> 00:09:39.305 professionals in the WordPress space. 00:09:39.315 --> 00:09:43.545 So it's a tough, it's just a tough one to crack. 00:09:43.555 --> 00:09:47.365 And I don't know any other, if anyone has any other ways of calculating that data 00:09:47.375 --> 00:09:52.725 other than looking at the web hosts and trying to understand, you know, who the 00:09:52.725 --> 00:09:57.925 biggest web hosts are hosting WordPress and seeing how they attract customers 00:09:58.155 --> 00:10:03.335 to kind of reverse engineer potentially that type of customer, That's the best 00:10:03.345 --> 00:10:05.115 that I have to, to try to answer that. 00:10:05.115 --> 00:10:11.555 Mark: So, then if, if we define that, if that's our definition of end user, 00:10:11.795 --> 00:10:16.975 somebody that is, needs a website for either business or blog, but they're 00:10:16.975 --> 00:10:21.065 not really at the level, or they don't want to, get somebody to do that, right? 00:10:21.065 --> 00:10:22.905 They're not gonna hire somebody, they're gonna do it themselves. 00:10:23.075 --> 00:10:27.885 Which, in 2024, we are, Definitely lying to ourselves if we don't 00:10:27.895 --> 00:10:30.785 think that's like possible or if we don't think that's like a good idea. 00:10:30.785 --> 00:10:31.915 I mean, it's definitely a good idea. 00:10:31.915 --> 00:10:35.455 Even though, I want people to, you know, come to my agency and make me, and have 00:10:35.465 --> 00:10:39.285 me build them a website, I do think that, you know, we don't work with everybody 00:10:39.285 --> 00:10:40.395 and there's a certain level there. 00:10:40.395 --> 00:10:42.935 And it's, it's just interesting to see how it's gone. 00:10:42.935 --> 00:10:47.345 So I think that, you know, with the Gutenberg Project as an example, and 00:10:47.345 --> 00:10:52.395 I wasn't really, I wasn't really in this, you know, you know, frame of mind 00:10:52.395 --> 00:10:53.875 when, when this all started, right? 00:10:53.875 --> 00:10:57.965 And you were, so tell me about this, what was the initial, was 00:10:57.965 --> 00:11:02.905 the initial thought there to be like, we see where this is going. 00:11:02.905 --> 00:11:07.935 We see that it's, it's getting like easier for the common person to build. 00:11:08.155 --> 00:11:10.605 So we're going to try to move in that direction. 00:11:10.625 --> 00:11:14.625 And again, I don't know where Wix all those were at that point, but it was the 00:11:14.625 --> 00:11:17.445 idea to go that route so we could kind of. 00:11:18.735 --> 00:11:21.485 Compete, if that's, you know, if we want to use that term with 00:11:21.485 --> 00:11:24.125 those types of things, because I do think that makes sense. 00:11:24.685 --> 00:11:29.235 But was that any of, was that any of the, would you say, did, did it sound like that 00:11:29.235 --> 00:11:32.485 was the reason, or did we just think in general like that was the way to go, or? 00:11:32.905 --> 00:11:36.325 Matt: Well, I mean, you also have to consider the complexities 00:11:36.395 --> 00:11:38.515 of the, of the situation. 00:11:38.925 --> 00:11:43.335 Meaning, it's not like we all, it's not like we all got together and decided, 00:11:43.425 --> 00:11:45.295 you know, Gutenberg was the path. 00:11:45.295 --> 00:11:45.685 I mean. 00:11:46.705 --> 00:11:47.435 I think, 00:11:50.435 --> 00:11:54.715 you know, there, this is going to go counter to a lot of the 00:11:54.715 --> 00:11:56.475 stuff I've told you before. 00:11:57.135 --> 00:12:00.375 So try to, try to take, try to take it with a grain of salt. 00:12:01.035 --> 00:12:08.135 I think every great product, let me zoom out. 00:12:08.665 --> 00:12:15.595 So I've worked at companies before where the founders don't care about the product. 00:12:16.995 --> 00:12:18.355 They don't care about the product. 00:12:18.655 --> 00:12:20.555 They don't use it. 00:12:20.785 --> 00:12:22.945 They don't, they're not passionate about it. 00:12:23.385 --> 00:12:26.955 They don't understand it from a customer's point of view. 00:12:27.810 --> 00:12:28.070 What do they 00:12:28.070 --> 00:12:28.490 Mark: care about? 00:12:28.490 --> 00:12:29.070 Just the money? 00:12:29.380 --> 00:12:29.740 Matt: Yeah. 00:12:29.740 --> 00:12:31.270 Just like the business side of it. 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:36.380 Like I've got this, I've got this cog and can I sell it and you know, 00:12:36.390 --> 00:12:40.180 profitability and plenty of businesses run that way and that's totally fine. 00:12:40.290 --> 00:12:40.540 Right. 00:12:40.560 --> 00:12:41.330 Totally fine. 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:44.190 I mean, it's, it's just, it's business, right? 00:12:44.190 --> 00:12:49.580 And a lot of people who see business on paper and numbers and that's it. 00:12:49.630 --> 00:12:50.470 And that's fine. 00:12:50.500 --> 00:12:54.500 That's probably how a majority of the world operates, you know, 00:12:54.500 --> 00:12:56.230 and then you have software. 00:12:57.255 --> 00:13:00.985 That, you know, are, it's a unique animal because software 00:13:00.985 --> 00:13:02.715 companies can be one person. 00:13:03.295 --> 00:13:07.945 And generally that's one person that is super passionate about a thing and they 00:13:07.945 --> 00:13:11.685 can become multi millionaires and they can have hundreds of thousands of customers. 00:13:11.685 --> 00:13:12.585 They can be one person. 00:13:12.585 --> 00:13:14.925 I mean, there's plenty of case studies around that. 00:13:15.425 --> 00:13:16.425 so the software business. 00:13:16.810 --> 00:13:18.970 And then you look at the WordPress world. 00:13:19.270 --> 00:13:24.040 It's very unique that five, six, seven, a dozen people can come together and 00:13:24.050 --> 00:13:29.737 build something awesome and be super profitable for it and yada, yada, yada. 00:13:29.737 --> 00:13:35.367 so having said all of that, there, there needs to be in this space, a good 00:13:35.777 --> 00:13:40.307 product leader and to make decisions. 00:13:40.387 --> 00:13:42.697 Any business needs that for the product. 00:13:43.997 --> 00:13:48.107 Somebody needs to say, I love this thing enough to make a decision. 00:13:48.457 --> 00:13:51.547 Because what I was getting at with those other businesses is no decisions are made. 00:13:51.757 --> 00:13:53.217 Eh, you're just coasting along. 00:13:53.227 --> 00:13:54.567 We don't even know what the hell we're building. 00:13:54.567 --> 00:13:55.837 We don't know any of this stuff. 00:13:58.167 --> 00:14:02.357 And in the WordPress world, the person who makes that decision, whether you agree 00:14:02.357 --> 00:14:08.327 with the decisions or not, are largely led by Matt Mullenweg's vision, right? 00:14:09.347 --> 00:14:14.082 Now, when you date, Way back into the WordPress world and the reason why I 00:14:14.752 --> 00:14:19.012 have always, you know, the reason why I latched on to WordPress early on was 00:14:19.022 --> 00:14:22.692 he had a vision of WordPress becoming the operating system of the web. 00:14:23.882 --> 00:14:30.162 Now, he never really broke that apart and dissected it, nor was it ever really just 00:14:30.162 --> 00:14:33.412 like a, like it was never like a thing that they flew on a flag and everyone 00:14:33.412 --> 00:14:36.072 was like, We're all going to build like the operating system of the web. 00:14:36.432 --> 00:14:37.722 I heard it and I was like, oh. 00:14:38.562 --> 00:14:39.362 That's pretty cool. 00:14:39.422 --> 00:14:41.022 I kind of like that idea. 00:14:41.372 --> 00:14:44.552 Because, back then, page builders weren't a thing. 00:14:44.552 --> 00:14:46.702 It was custom post types, custom fields. 00:14:46.852 --> 00:14:48.302 You were building user logins. 00:14:48.312 --> 00:14:50.102 That's, I mean, I was doing that at my agency. 00:14:50.272 --> 00:14:51.932 We're building, these little mini apps. 00:14:51.932 --> 00:14:55.632 And I was like, oh, yeah, WordPress is kind of like this, this application layer. 00:14:55.632 --> 00:14:59.042 We talked about this before, that was a debate many years ago, where 00:14:59.292 --> 00:15:02.862 people would debate forever, is WordPress really just an application? 00:15:03.827 --> 00:15:04.667 framework. 00:15:04.767 --> 00:15:06.647 and that was a massive debate for a while. 00:15:07.077 --> 00:15:12.007 so Mullenweg is the one who kind of rolled out the concept of Gutenberg. 00:15:12.007 --> 00:15:18.377 Now people, you can debate whether or not it was the right decision to make. 00:15:18.377 --> 00:15:21.917 You can debate whether or not, there was massive like accessibility issues with it. 00:15:22.317 --> 00:15:25.807 Presumably there might still be issues with it today, all this stuff. 00:15:26.727 --> 00:15:29.027 It was where the web was going. 00:15:30.182 --> 00:15:34.592 from an end user's perspective, you know, but, but in my spine, defining 00:15:35.782 --> 00:15:39.742 Mark: that though, the way it was going, the vision, everything like that, we 00:15:39.742 --> 00:15:45.982 literally mean going from like a WYSIWYG classic type editor style and things like 00:15:45.982 --> 00:15:50.487 that, just like being dropped into pages via themes to a visual building like 00:15:50.487 --> 00:15:51.457 that's what we're talking about, right? 00:15:51.507 --> 00:15:51.837 Exactly. 00:15:52.147 --> 00:15:55.027 I don't think that's a bad thing I mean, we could have a separate 00:15:55.067 --> 00:15:57.467 discussion about that, but everybody's doing it You know what? 00:15:57.467 --> 00:15:57.697 I mean? 00:15:57.697 --> 00:16:01.237 Like it does seem like it it is trending that way It's way easier to 00:16:01.237 --> 00:16:04.417 build when you can actually see the stuff rather than again It's more 00:16:04.447 --> 00:16:08.127 encapsulation abstraction away from the actual, you know coding of it. 00:16:08.337 --> 00:16:11.907 But again democratizing publishing I don't really think too many people 00:16:12.732 --> 00:16:16.142 Would take like issue with that obviously it gets in more nuance as 00:16:16.142 --> 00:16:19.972 far as like how it's gone and things But that's not even what I'm that's 00:16:19.972 --> 00:16:21.532 not really even where I'm at right now. 00:16:21.882 --> 00:16:24.592 My thought is okay So what was it five years ago? 00:16:24.672 --> 00:16:26.032 Roughish. 00:16:26.032 --> 00:16:26.362 Okay. 00:16:26.572 --> 00:16:28.532 So five years ago, we make that turn. 00:16:28.562 --> 00:16:29.952 I would love to go back in time. 00:16:29.952 --> 00:16:33.302 Maybe, you know, like where the other platforms were at that point, regardless 00:16:33.302 --> 00:16:37.242 of if it's a competition or not, in a sense, I do believe it kind of is because 00:16:37.242 --> 00:16:41.132 at the end of the day, if I am a lay person, this is the whole concept right 00:16:41.132 --> 00:16:46.332 here is if I'm a lay person, I don't know 1 percent of the shit you and I know. 00:16:46.402 --> 00:16:47.022 You know what I mean? 00:16:47.032 --> 00:16:48.322 Like I don't know anything. 00:16:48.352 --> 00:16:51.672 And I think we, I don't know if we actively forget about this. 00:16:52.062 --> 00:16:56.342 Or if it's just a passive thing, but because we're kind of in the space, 00:16:56.642 --> 00:16:59.342 we just, and I'm just, I'm talking in general, I'm not, but you know, you and 00:16:59.342 --> 00:17:01.242 I, as an example, like I, cause I do it. 00:17:01.242 --> 00:17:05.342 I for, I think we forget about the, the actual end users and 00:17:05.342 --> 00:17:07.102 what they do or don't know. 00:17:07.102 --> 00:17:10.982 And if the goal is to get more like random, you know, pottery people or 00:17:10.982 --> 00:17:15.062 blog people onto the WordPress platform, that is, I feel like there's a, 00:17:15.142 --> 00:17:16.962 there's a bit of a, a struggle there. 00:17:16.962 --> 00:17:18.612 And I think Gutenberg is starting to solve that. 00:17:18.612 --> 00:17:19.992 Jamie Marsland, those types of videos. 00:17:19.992 --> 00:17:20.842 Fantastic. 00:17:22.242 --> 00:17:27.102 So I just I but I but I still think that like the actual product then and this is 00:17:27.102 --> 00:17:31.392 another question I don't I don't think we got an answer to it is Has anybody 00:17:31.392 --> 00:17:35.662 gone to a pottery or a blogger person or something and literally asked them 00:17:35.782 --> 00:17:37.182 is this does this make any sense to? 00:17:37.182 --> 00:17:39.132 You you would you guys use this thing? 00:17:39.132 --> 00:17:43.226 Yeah, like as compared to a Wix or a Squarespace or whatever That's all that's 00:17:43.226 --> 00:17:47.786 all I'm saying on really on that point because I feel like just from Straight 00:17:47.796 --> 00:17:53.456 up like thinking about how to sell this project to them and get them to try it. 00:17:53.726 --> 00:17:54.946 That's kind of the best thing. 00:17:54.946 --> 00:17:57.566 And again, again, I shout out Jamie because he's making fantastic 00:17:57.566 --> 00:17:59.296 videos about that specifically. 00:17:59.676 --> 00:18:01.176 he's even doing adwordpress. 00:18:01.176 --> 00:18:01.576 com now. 00:18:01.576 --> 00:18:03.696 So, I think, I definitely think we're moving in the right direction. 00:18:03.696 --> 00:18:04.516 Definitely optimistic. 00:18:04.516 --> 00:18:08.226 I'm just trying to kind of recalibrate my mind on that, on that front too to 00:18:08.226 --> 00:18:12.366 see how, how I could be continuing to do better, think about it differently, and 00:18:12.366 --> 00:18:13.676 how we could continue to move forward. 00:18:14.191 --> 00:18:17.741 Matt: Yeah, it's also very, again, it's difficult because of the sheer 00:18:17.741 --> 00:18:25.551 size of WordPress and, you know, one of the benefits still, with open source 00:18:25.551 --> 00:18:31.301 and, and with WordPress is, You know, effectively, if there were, cause 00:18:31.301 --> 00:18:33.661 there is, if you look at, there's a market for restaurants, right? 00:18:33.671 --> 00:18:36.101 I mean, when I got into the agency game, probably just like when you 00:18:36.101 --> 00:18:38.531 got into the agency game, maybe probably the first thought that came 00:18:38.971 --> 00:18:41.771 through your head is like, all these restaurant websites are terrible. 00:18:41.771 --> 00:18:43.671 I'm going to go help people build restaurant websites. 00:18:43.671 --> 00:18:46.711 And then you go talk to the restaurant owners and they look at you and they 00:18:46.711 --> 00:18:48.071 say, get the hell out of my kitchen. 00:18:48.071 --> 00:18:49.601 I work 70 hours a week. 00:18:49.731 --> 00:18:52.641 I don't have time to do this website thing. 00:18:52.661 --> 00:18:54.011 And then you realize. 00:18:54.406 --> 00:18:56.926 Why web, why restaurant websites suck. 00:18:58.586 --> 00:18:59.106 but there has 00:18:59.106 --> 00:19:00.656 Mark: evolved that has evolved as well. 00:19:00.656 --> 00:19:04.336 I don't want to go on restaurant tangent, but like now there's like online ordering 00:19:04.336 --> 00:19:07.346 and you obviously can do that through WordPress, but that's, that was a really, 00:19:07.346 --> 00:19:10.736 really good thing that people like came up with a good idea to make, you 00:19:10.736 --> 00:19:12.346 know, platform specifically for that. 00:19:12.386 --> 00:19:15.446 Now, every, every restaurant website looks like kind of one or two different 00:19:15.446 --> 00:19:17.706 ways or whatever, but that's a side note. 00:19:17.736 --> 00:19:20.111 But that, but that's, That's one of the examples though. 00:19:20.291 --> 00:19:20.551 And if 00:19:20.551 --> 00:19:24.221 Matt: you, if you look at like WordPress to just use a different analogy that 00:19:24.391 --> 00:19:27.141 I don't often use in like the word, the WordPress open source side of 00:19:27.141 --> 00:19:31.461 it is, is it's the open highway and then your different cars can come 00:19:31.461 --> 00:19:33.331 on, it's come drive on this highway. 00:19:33.331 --> 00:19:33.661 So. 00:19:34.281 --> 00:19:40.411 You know, WordPress effectively can build you a 50, 000 foot view page builder. 00:19:40.411 --> 00:19:43.961 I know it's not trying to do that, but if you zoom out, like if it's, if it 00:19:43.971 --> 00:19:48.251 stays out of the way and builds you the infrastructure, you need to have 00:19:48.251 --> 00:19:53.051 a good page building experience or editing content, editing experience. 00:19:53.701 --> 00:19:59.991 Then if the market demands more pottery type solutions, Then somebody 00:19:59.991 --> 00:20:04.041 will come up with Pottery themes, Pottery plugins, Pottery services. 00:20:04.421 --> 00:20:09.931 And that's the, the benefit of, of this whole like open source thing. 00:20:09.931 --> 00:20:13.181 Because if somebody's truly being underserved here through 00:20:13.191 --> 00:20:17.191 WordPress, chances are you can find somebody to fill that gap. 00:20:17.411 --> 00:20:20.421 You see it now, well you see it now with services agencies. 00:20:20.421 --> 00:20:23.621 That's why there's so many services agencies that invest in WordPress. 00:20:23.641 --> 00:20:28.061 But then you see it more thoroughly with like higher ed solutions. 00:20:28.061 --> 00:20:33.696 Pottery Barn Where they have a specific need for WordPress and there are agencies 00:20:33.696 --> 00:20:38.236 out there and software out there that like bends that Bends to that market 00:20:38.236 --> 00:20:44.066 same thing with publishing Magazine like traditional magazines traditional 00:20:44.066 --> 00:20:49.996 news news publishers I went to a competitor the other day is side thing. 00:20:50.236 --> 00:20:54.706 There's a pretty popular magazine in my area They always do like the top You 00:20:55.331 --> 00:21:01.601 Top restaurants top stores for all the 2024 and all the categories and I used 00:21:01.601 --> 00:21:04.641 to manage their site I actually built them all kinds of stuff way back in 00:21:04.641 --> 00:21:08.821 the day Then magazine stopped getting funded or whatever and they they cut 00:21:08.821 --> 00:21:12.611 their budgets down tried to bring it in house There was a problem with their 00:21:12.611 --> 00:21:14.931 website the other day and I was like, Oh, I wonder if they still run WordPress. 00:21:14.931 --> 00:21:18.261 So I went slash WP admin, they do. 00:21:18.491 --> 00:21:24.131 And somebody rebranded the WP admin interface and I don't know what the name 00:21:24.131 --> 00:21:28.061 of the website was, but it goes to some other website and, they just talk about 00:21:28.061 --> 00:21:31.451 how like they've built a CMS for media publishers and all this other stuff. 00:21:31.451 --> 00:21:33.951 And I'm like, guys, this is, this is still WordPress here. 00:21:34.371 --> 00:21:37.531 so, you know, that's the benefit with WordPress is it can be, you 00:21:37.531 --> 00:21:39.151 know, molded to that experience. 00:21:39.966 --> 00:21:40.246 Mark: Yeah. 00:21:41.336 --> 00:21:41.676 Yeah. 00:21:41.696 --> 00:21:44.496 I mean, it's different depending on what you obviously want. 00:21:44.616 --> 00:21:48.406 but I think, I, I still think that, I mean, I just think that's what, 00:21:48.456 --> 00:21:49.096 Matt: let me ask you this. 00:21:49.096 --> 00:21:53.196 So why do you think if you get, if you all of a sudden had a chart of 00:21:53.386 --> 00:21:57.336 the breakdown of, of end users, would, would you do anything different? 00:21:59.846 --> 00:22:03.566 Mark: I feel like it would matter what the results were to a, to a certain degree. 00:22:04.096 --> 00:22:05.986 Matt: You think that would make the software better? 00:22:07.861 --> 00:22:10.341 If we could, really pin down, who that was. 00:22:12.431 --> 00:22:15.351 Mark: I think, I think it's, I think it's an interesting one that, that 00:22:15.351 --> 00:22:17.591 needs, that calls for an analogy. 00:22:18.141 --> 00:22:20.121 That I'm, that maybe you and I could come up with. 00:22:20.541 --> 00:22:22.571 Because I, I don't, I don't have one off the top of my head. 00:22:22.571 --> 00:22:26.821 But it's the way I see it is, we have talented developers that 00:22:26.821 --> 00:22:28.121 are in this space all the time. 00:22:28.191 --> 00:22:32.061 Creating the software for people that are gonna use it. 00:22:33.611 --> 00:22:33.941 But. 00:22:34.966 --> 00:22:37.506 But again, literally, do we have any focus groups of those things? 00:22:37.516 --> 00:22:39.636 I mean, how, how do regular SAS products work? 00:22:39.946 --> 00:22:43.996 did they get, did they get feedback from, from their user base? 00:22:44.216 --> 00:22:47.756 Like they're, they're, it's just different because there's, there's too many 00:22:47.756 --> 00:22:49.676 different types of people utilizing it. 00:22:49.676 --> 00:22:53.676 Like for instance, my FinTech bank that I've used since they basically opened, 00:22:54.066 --> 00:22:57.876 I was like one of the core people and I was like giving feedback on what was 00:22:57.876 --> 00:22:59.776 going on and UI changes and things. 00:23:00.156 --> 00:23:02.566 But I'm the only person that's using it. 00:23:02.656 --> 00:23:04.886 I'm like, like I'm the only, I'm not the only person. 00:23:04.886 --> 00:23:06.546 I'm the only avatar that's using it. 00:23:06.546 --> 00:23:06.716 Right. 00:23:06.716 --> 00:23:09.276 They don't really have too many other avatars, but in WordPress, 00:23:09.276 --> 00:23:10.056 there's a ton of people. 00:23:10.056 --> 00:23:12.246 I'm not saying these are easy questions to answer. 00:23:12.246 --> 00:23:17.096 I'm just saying that, you know, I, like if, if, if we literally just rounded 00:23:17.096 --> 00:23:21.076 up a hundred pottery people and we said to them, Hey, through Gutenberg 00:23:21.076 --> 00:23:24.296 in front of them and said, Hey, you know, I feel like that might be a 00:23:24.306 --> 00:23:26.556 good thing to, just to kind of see. 00:23:27.131 --> 00:23:28.351 What the vibe is like. 00:23:28.501 --> 00:23:30.831 But then, I mean again, I'll counter my own argument. 00:23:30.861 --> 00:23:32.201 Is, does it even matter? 00:23:32.301 --> 00:23:35.251 do we just feel like we, we know what's best for them and 00:23:35.251 --> 00:23:36.521 we just put it in front of them? 00:23:36.751 --> 00:23:38.781 And then they, they handle, and they figure it out themselves. 00:23:38.831 --> 00:23:39.871 That's, that could be an answer. 00:23:39.871 --> 00:23:42.151 I'm just, again, I'm, I'm just wondering. 00:23:42.321 --> 00:23:45.181 Matt: Yeah, and that's the, yeah, that's something I can't answer either, 00:23:45.181 --> 00:23:52.116 because of, you know, the various decisions and the various, concepts 00:23:52.116 --> 00:23:53.716 that come into the WordPress space. 00:23:54.476 --> 00:23:58.936 you know, the core, the core team and, and a lot of people who contribute to actual 00:23:58.956 --> 00:24:04.116 code to WordPress, you know, some of these ideas just come out of nowhere, right. 00:24:04.356 --> 00:24:08.336 You know, and, and some of these big concepts just come out of nowhere. 00:24:08.346 --> 00:24:11.456 And yeah, obviously the, the. 00:24:12.586 --> 00:24:15.016 Biggest fish in the game is, is automatic. 00:24:15.016 --> 00:24:18.216 So, you know, you have some smart people there and, and certainly 00:24:18.216 --> 00:24:20.516 can lead you to say like, why did we come up with this idea? 00:24:21.156 --> 00:24:23.926 I would hope that when they're making those decisions. 00:24:24.236 --> 00:24:26.876 So, so this goes back to my, what I was saying before about you 00:24:26.876 --> 00:24:28.416 need to have a product person. 00:24:29.421 --> 00:24:33.041 I know not to call, you know, WordPress a traditional product, but you need 00:24:33.041 --> 00:24:36.421 to have a product person who makes those decisions, makes those bets. 00:24:36.611 --> 00:24:39.331 Cause at the end of the day, if you don't have somebody who's like willing 00:24:39.331 --> 00:24:44.451 to risk that or have that vision, then you get, then you get nothing. 00:24:44.461 --> 00:24:48.791 You just get the stag, stagnant product or company. 00:24:48.791 --> 00:24:53.001 So Gutenberg big grand vision. 00:24:53.641 --> 00:24:57.471 Matt has even said before in other podcasts that, or other interviews that 00:24:57.481 --> 00:25:03.361 he actually sees open source Gutenberg to be bigger than WordPress in years to come. 00:25:03.751 --> 00:25:05.321 So wrap your head around that, right? 00:25:05.661 --> 00:25:07.151 And I kind of agree with him on that. 00:25:07.631 --> 00:25:10.601 You know, other CMS platforms should use Gutenberg. 00:25:11.121 --> 00:25:14.611 Ghost should use Gutenberg because Ghost is a great platform. 00:25:14.901 --> 00:25:18.381 But when you start editing, it's so limited compared to what I 00:25:18.381 --> 00:25:21.301 can do with, with Gutenberg when I'm building pages and templates. 00:25:22.156 --> 00:25:23.776 And that's the idea around Gutenberg. 00:25:23.776 --> 00:25:27.766 That's also an open source project that other CMSs or any interface 00:25:28.026 --> 00:25:32.436 that has inputs on the web could use, could fork and use in their project. 00:25:32.436 --> 00:25:34.946 So you need somebody to be able to make those decisions. 00:25:34.956 --> 00:25:41.126 So I hope that when, you know, Matthias and Rich Tabor and, and 00:25:41.126 --> 00:25:44.276 McCarthy and all these folks that come up with a lot of Nick Diego 00:25:44.496 --> 00:25:48.286 come up with these big grand visions of WordPress that they're thinking. 00:25:49.901 --> 00:25:53.401 This decision is good for, for everyone. 00:25:53.491 --> 00:25:58.281 It's a bit of risk, it's a bit of a bet, as a good product person should do. 00:25:59.241 --> 00:26:02.371 but the idea would be like, hey man, if this isn't working, you 00:26:02.371 --> 00:26:05.671 gotta, you gotta yank it, or we gotta, you know, shift course. 00:26:06.086 --> 00:26:09.216 And a little bit of hint of that this week, past week when Matt 00:26:09.216 --> 00:26:11.856 was like, maybe we should take a year and reinvest in stuff. 00:26:12.506 --> 00:26:14.826 yeah, man, like maybe we have been iterating too fast. 00:26:14.826 --> 00:26:20.466 And, and actually we kind of just saw this happen because I believe collaboration 00:26:20.466 --> 00:26:25.916 was next on the list, but that's getting paused because there wasn't enough either 00:26:25.926 --> 00:26:29.806 interest or maybe they realized like, oh shit, we have to, we have to pump the 00:26:29.806 --> 00:26:34.396 brakes a bit and beef up this other stuff before we start thinking about Developing 00:26:34.476 --> 00:26:38.676 collaboration in, in WordPress and that's going to get pushed to a later date. 00:26:38.796 --> 00:26:41.206 I believe is what the end result was 00:26:42.996 --> 00:26:45.826 Mark: Yeah, I don't I mean that would just be another question that I would 00:26:45.836 --> 00:26:51.246 have is it is it that The is it that the iteration has been too fast or 00:26:51.246 --> 00:26:54.386 has it been some other like word? 00:26:54.386 --> 00:26:57.791 I mean like Because again, there's different, there's different opinions 00:26:57.861 --> 00:26:59.621 all over the community about this. 00:26:59.641 --> 00:27:01.101 some people say it's not been managed well. 00:27:01.101 --> 00:27:02.661 Some people say it's going slow as hell. 00:27:02.671 --> 00:27:03.521 Like all that sort of stuff. 00:27:03.561 --> 00:27:05.351 I'm not here to say one way or the other necessarily. 00:27:05.351 --> 00:27:06.871 I haven't been around long enough to really feel it. 00:27:07.151 --> 00:27:14.661 But I'm saying like, how, It, it signals to me like there's, just looking at 00:27:14.661 --> 00:27:19.676 it, That, that, If it, if it was too fast and we need to go back on certain 00:27:19.676 --> 00:27:22.626 things, then maybe those weren't, completely thought out at the time. 00:27:22.866 --> 00:27:26.146 And either not completely thought out or not completely, I don't know the process 00:27:26.146 --> 00:27:27.446 for building a SaaS, I'm not gonna lie. 00:27:27.456 --> 00:27:31.266 But I'm, but I'm thinking, I don't see other, again, we, we can't 00:27:31.266 --> 00:27:34.086 really compare, I guess, products to projects, but, I don't really see that 00:27:34.086 --> 00:27:35.466 happening in these other platforms. 00:27:35.466 --> 00:27:38.166 So I wonder, literally, I know it's not apples to apples entirely, but 00:27:38.166 --> 00:27:40.756 I'm wondering, With a Wix, with a Squarespace, like how do they 00:27:40.756 --> 00:27:41.906 even come up with these ideas? 00:27:41.906 --> 00:27:43.846 Do they, do they pull their users at all? 00:27:43.846 --> 00:27:46.486 Do they have those types of focus group type things? 00:27:46.756 --> 00:27:53.416 because we have the greatest community of that in WordPress, but it is 00:27:53.426 --> 00:27:57.756 not really the target audience of traditional WordPress, I suppose. 00:27:58.076 --> 00:27:58.896 Like you can just. 00:27:59.841 --> 00:28:03.601 Open up Twitter and you will see an opinion about Gutenberg or WordPress 00:28:03.601 --> 00:28:04.651 in general or something like that. 00:28:04.651 --> 00:28:09.601 But that person is most likely going to be somebody that does this professionally. 00:28:09.901 --> 00:28:10.131 Yeah. 00:28:10.141 --> 00:28:13.771 Rather than, or has some sort of livelihood connected directly to the 00:28:13.771 --> 00:28:18.451 product, on the project, rather than just like their business uses WordPress. 00:28:18.791 --> 00:28:18.961 Yeah. 00:28:18.961 --> 00:28:22.481 I just think it's a really, really Interesting juxtaposition. 00:28:22.741 --> 00:28:23.871 Yeah, I mean, I would even, 00:28:24.281 --> 00:28:28.111 Matt: I would even argue that if you saw a negative opinion about WordPress, you 00:28:28.111 --> 00:28:32.461 would see more negative opinions about WordPress from the average user than 00:28:32.461 --> 00:28:35.331 you would, positive, you know, reviews. 00:28:35.331 --> 00:28:40.551 Because it's still a learning curve and it's still difficult and, you 00:28:40.551 --> 00:28:45.086 know, you need to have some, some knowledge to, to know how this whole 00:28:45.086 --> 00:28:46.776 thing is, is put together, right? 00:28:46.786 --> 00:28:50.046 Plugins, themes, what can, you know, hosting, what happens 00:28:50.046 --> 00:28:50.976 when my site goes slow? 00:28:50.976 --> 00:28:55.456 Like you need to, you know, that's why people reach out to a service provider. 00:28:55.456 --> 00:28:58.826 And I think that really it's, it's understanding. 00:28:59.906 --> 00:29:02.826 And this is why I think secretly you start to, not secretly, but 00:29:03.086 --> 00:29:07.676 I start, you start to see efforts with Playground, Playground. 00:29:07.676 --> 00:29:08.246 wordpress. 00:29:08.246 --> 00:29:15.596 net and the Studio app, Because this gives somebody the ability to, to use 00:29:15.596 --> 00:29:17.746 WordPress and try WordPress for free. 00:29:17.886 --> 00:29:21.166 Now this is, remember, this is infant, we're in infant stage right now. 00:29:21.176 --> 00:29:24.036 This, this tiny little blip on the radar right now. 00:29:24.446 --> 00:29:29.836 But six months ago, ten years ago, when you told somebody to get 00:29:29.836 --> 00:29:32.546 WordPress, it's just download the zip file, what do you do with it? 00:29:32.636 --> 00:29:37.196 Now you can actually, Try it for free in the browser, and that's not going 00:29:37.196 --> 00:29:43.326 to help everyone, but it'll certainly Onboard people faster because one 00:29:43.326 --> 00:29:46.926 you can do it for free and you can do it without any risk like you It's 00:29:46.926 --> 00:29:48.266 not like you're breaking anything. 00:29:48.616 --> 00:29:51.376 It's not like you have to save this somewhere kind of thing. 00:29:51.436 --> 00:29:56.336 You have to break your website and I think that that's going to be the start to get 00:29:56.336 --> 00:30:02.546 people on boarded and Ultimately, at the end of the day, it, I mean, ultimately 00:30:02.546 --> 00:30:05.086 at the end of the day, it is what it is, like if people can't figure out 00:30:05.086 --> 00:30:10.736 WordPress on their own, like that DIYer, that you always have in this free, open 00:30:10.736 --> 00:30:15.336 market, not just open source, but open market, you'll have those other solutions 00:30:15.336 --> 00:30:19.336 of Wix and Squarespace, so like their market share is basically people who 00:30:19.336 --> 00:30:23.526 are just frustrated with WordPress at the end of the day, not literally, but 00:30:23.946 --> 00:30:27.266 But, but there's a large portion who are like, I don't want to do this myself. 00:30:27.596 --> 00:30:28.566 Give me this app. 00:30:28.666 --> 00:30:32.546 That's 10 bucks a month that I can, that, that looks like it's good. 00:30:32.546 --> 00:30:36.156 It looks like what I have and there's tech support and that's a total viable 00:30:36.156 --> 00:30:38.256 solution and WordPress WordPress. 00:30:38.876 --> 00:30:40.606 com exists for that reason too. 00:30:41.026 --> 00:30:43.916 but they're their own worst enemy because of somebody on boards through wordpress. 00:30:44.826 --> 00:30:48.106 org and they hate that experience through some like 5 a month. 00:30:48.516 --> 00:30:49.536 Cheap hosting plan. 00:30:50.046 --> 00:30:52.876 then that person just says, I don't, I don't care if wordpress. 00:30:52.876 --> 00:30:54.366 com is the place to go. 00:30:54.596 --> 00:30:55.686 I don't want WordPress. 00:30:55.736 --> 00:31:00.626 I'm going to Squarespace and Wix until they level up in their business life 00:31:01.086 --> 00:31:04.986 or they realize Oh shit, I, I, I can't do what I need to do with this website. 00:31:05.836 --> 00:31:08.586 and then they move back to WordPress or something else. 00:31:09.816 --> 00:31:10.206 Mark: Yeah. 00:31:10.206 --> 00:31:12.626 It's again, it's just, it's tough. 00:31:13.166 --> 00:31:14.546 I feel like there's a, an. 00:31:15.826 --> 00:31:16.556 a piece of it. 00:31:16.556 --> 00:31:20.286 That's what is louder versus what is true. 00:31:20.896 --> 00:31:23.606 in just a general opinion of everything, because you know, I feel 00:31:23.606 --> 00:31:26.746 like a lot of people would question that idea of just simply like you 00:31:26.746 --> 00:31:27.736 just brought up there, like dot. 00:31:28.036 --> 00:31:28.666 com versus. 00:31:28.916 --> 00:31:29.166 org. 00:31:29.166 --> 00:31:30.196 What's the purpose of either? 00:31:30.196 --> 00:31:32.796 who's, who are they being marketed to and things like that. 00:31:33.286 --> 00:31:34.726 And I'm just not sure. 00:31:34.726 --> 00:31:37.356 Cause I hear a lot of opinions, but then I don't, it doesn't get 00:31:37.356 --> 00:31:41.031 reflected in like the way that it's actually, You know, either updated 00:31:41.031 --> 00:31:43.461 in, iterated on or, or what have you. 00:31:43.461 --> 00:31:48.441 And, I don't, I don't, I don't know if there's an actual, these are 00:31:48.591 --> 00:31:51.831 some of the toughest, toughest, toughest questions I feel like in 00:31:51.836 --> 00:31:54.381 this hole, in this whole space. 00:31:54.411 --> 00:31:56.781 Just because there's, there's too many pains, there's too many 00:31:56.871 --> 00:31:57.111 Matt: things. 00:31:57.291 --> 00:31:59.721 Does what, what do you get out of it for if you get an answer? 00:32:02.381 --> 00:32:04.921 Mark: I mean, I don't know if I would get anything out of it, but hopefully 00:32:04.921 --> 00:32:07.681 it impacts some change, I guess. 00:32:07.681 --> 00:32:08.131 I don't know. 00:32:08.201 --> 00:32:08.381 Ah, 00:32:08.381 --> 00:32:09.671 Matt: but change, change for what? 00:32:09.701 --> 00:32:11.131 Like what, what is it going to change? 00:32:11.611 --> 00:32:12.851 Like what change are you looking for? 00:32:12.851 --> 00:32:13.221 Well, 00:32:13.511 --> 00:32:16.231 Mark: I don't know if I'm looking for a particular change, but I will say that 00:32:16.891 --> 00:32:19.281 things are absolutely going to change. 00:32:19.861 --> 00:32:22.436 Like for for instance, so like you talked about AI recently. 00:32:22.436 --> 00:32:25.106 I know you, I know you have some opinions on that versus like professional themes. 00:32:25.106 --> 00:32:25.676 AI website building. 00:32:25.681 --> 00:32:26.096 Yeah, yeah. 00:32:26.096 --> 00:32:29.156 ai, website building and like that versus professional themes and things. 00:32:29.161 --> 00:32:31.406 And I'm like, I'm very interested to see where that goes. 00:32:31.556 --> 00:32:36.476 Like I am, like I don't, I don't know if I'm optimistic or pessimistic on it, 00:32:36.476 --> 00:32:40.526 but like I think people are trying to like that, that is like a real concern. 00:32:40.526 --> 00:32:42.986 Like we could be, we could be having another chat in five years and this 00:32:42.986 --> 00:32:44.456 is like incredibly different now. 00:32:44.456 --> 00:32:46.406 You can't predict that for sure. 00:32:46.556 --> 00:32:47.396 A hundred percent right. 00:32:47.576 --> 00:32:48.236 But it's like. 00:32:49.446 --> 00:32:50.006 I don't know. 00:32:50.056 --> 00:32:54.226 I just feel I feel like if the, again, if the DIYers are the main audience, 00:32:54.236 --> 00:32:57.616 I would be like on them like a hawk, seeing like what they actually 00:32:57.616 --> 00:32:59.016 want, what they actually want to do. 00:32:59.016 --> 00:33:01.576 And I don't know if you can, because you don't have a direct 00:33:01.606 --> 00:33:05.696 access per se to them, which I get that, but it's a real question. 00:33:05.706 --> 00:33:08.166 And then the last point was, I kind of forgot and now I've come back 00:33:08.166 --> 00:33:12.076 to it, is, Is WordPress the end? 00:33:12.076 --> 00:33:12.156 Is it? 00:33:12.616 --> 00:33:13.976 is it the end solution? 00:33:13.976 --> 00:33:17.146 Meaning, does somebody, go to, get marketed to a Squarespace? 00:33:17.146 --> 00:33:18.026 It's real easy? 00:33:18.196 --> 00:33:20.026 Because I could see that as one of the journeys. 00:33:20.046 --> 00:33:20.896 The customer journeys. 00:33:20.896 --> 00:33:23.276 Where they go there and then they get limited and then they're like, 00:33:23.766 --> 00:33:26.676 Hey, go to WordPress or have somebody build you a WordPress website because 00:33:26.676 --> 00:33:27.956 there's a lot more that you can do. 00:33:28.136 --> 00:33:29.246 we all know that. 00:33:29.756 --> 00:33:30.766 And we say that. 00:33:31.916 --> 00:33:35.746 And it's like, how do we actually communicate that where Hey, if you just 00:33:35.746 --> 00:33:38.326 maybe started on WordPress, I know it might be a little annoying, but just 00:33:38.346 --> 00:33:40.706 learn Gutenberg and then you're going to be like way better off because you're 00:33:40.706 --> 00:33:44.406 already going to be kind of like kind of settled in this, in this ecosystem. 00:33:44.606 --> 00:33:47.506 If you ever need to hand it off, it's going to be, you know, you're, you're 00:33:47.506 --> 00:33:48.916 not going to be limited in any way. 00:33:49.346 --> 00:33:52.886 they're all business decisions though, for people that are literally 00:33:52.886 --> 00:33:56.216 running businesses outside of the tech space most of the time. 00:33:56.216 --> 00:33:58.643 So it's a really hard conversation to actually 00:33:58.643 --> 00:33:59.066 Matt: have. 00:33:59.066 --> 00:34:00.196 You'd have to have. 00:34:00.931 --> 00:34:06.951 You know, if the DIY segment, you know, you have to define and refine and all 00:34:06.951 --> 00:34:10.441 that stuff because there are business owners that will roll up their sleeves 00:34:10.901 --> 00:34:13.651 because literally they don't, they don't have the money to hire somebody 00:34:13.651 --> 00:34:16.711 right now, so they'll roll up their sleeves and they'll try to get it done. 00:34:17.921 --> 00:34:20.711 You would imagine that's the type of person they are if they're 00:34:20.721 --> 00:34:21.971 going to start a business. 00:34:22.611 --> 00:34:24.721 and then eventually business grows. 00:34:24.991 --> 00:34:26.621 Yada, yada, yada, you know the whole story. 00:34:26.631 --> 00:34:30.101 And then they say, it's time to hire a professional. 00:34:30.671 --> 00:34:35.801 Hopefully, Well, maybe they're happy with a Squarespace and Wix type solution. 00:34:35.801 --> 00:34:39.791 So they hire a Squarespace and Wix, specialist and they design 00:34:39.791 --> 00:34:40.871 them a site and they're happy. 00:34:41.271 --> 00:34:45.701 It's the different kind of site that is doing probably more like publishing, 00:34:46.381 --> 00:34:49.941 obviously something leveraging custom post types and, and archives. 00:34:49.941 --> 00:34:55.181 If you have a lot of, you know, tons of content or data on your site, complex 00:34:55.181 --> 00:34:56.661 workflows, all this other stuff. 00:34:57.381 --> 00:35:00.771 And that's when they say, okay, these platforms can't help me with that. 00:35:01.161 --> 00:35:03.541 I'll go hire a professional or they interview people and somebody 00:35:03.541 --> 00:35:05.411 convinces them to use WordPress, right? 00:35:05.931 --> 00:35:11.031 And I think it said, I think that that's why when you saw, Joseph, talk 00:35:11.041 --> 00:35:14.471 about like the next steps for the community, this is something that. 00:35:14.841 --> 00:35:17.961 You know, I've been holding onto for all of the 2024 because end 00:35:17.961 --> 00:35:22.691 of 2023, you know, the next thing now is how is WordPress thriving. 00:35:23.061 --> 00:35:27.721 We have to keep asking ourselves that as good stewards of the community is 00:35:27.721 --> 00:35:32.891 WordPress thriving, not just the software, but the people in it and around it. 00:35:33.161 --> 00:35:38.291 Are we encouraging ourselves to, you know, reinvest back into 00:35:38.291 --> 00:35:41.561 WordPress, learn WordPress, educate others on WordPress, et cetera. 00:35:42.011 --> 00:35:42.621 And. 00:35:43.331 --> 00:35:47.191 You know, that's another that to me, that's another segment for for growth. 00:35:47.221 --> 00:35:53.211 And I think Josefa and team, including Matt, realize that you don't want to lose 00:35:53.211 --> 00:35:58.801 the community because if you lose the community, it's a slow erosion effect. 00:35:58.851 --> 00:36:03.331 And there's all kinds of issues right now in that with WordPress, you know, age. 00:36:04.591 --> 00:36:08.701 The software is, the software itself is, is also aging. 00:36:08.961 --> 00:36:10.271 the users are aging. 00:36:10.291 --> 00:36:13.591 And yeah, when you look at AI, Certainly. 00:36:13.691 --> 00:36:17.711 And who the hell knows five years could be drastically different or could not. 00:36:17.731 --> 00:36:20.771 But drastically different, like where people can write their own 00:36:20.771 --> 00:36:24.651 code and the chat GPT just ships it off to a hosting platform. 00:36:24.651 --> 00:36:26.691 You don't even know, nor do you care. 00:36:27.111 --> 00:36:31.621 You say, build me a blogging system where my five colleagues can log in and blog and 00:36:31.621 --> 00:36:33.611 it just builds the whole system for you. 00:36:34.861 --> 00:36:41.381 Now, maybe Matt's vision of WordPress and Gutenberg is that there's a way 00:36:41.381 --> 00:36:45.301 that that code is being used in AI algorithms, and it's putting together 00:36:45.301 --> 00:36:49.021 the underpinnings of WordPress and Gutenberg is a standalone project. 00:36:49.021 --> 00:36:52.991 So that stuff is just, you know, AI knows Gutenberg and it's building you 00:36:52.991 --> 00:36:57.151 these bespoke platforms using Gutenberg. 00:36:57.201 --> 00:36:58.461 That sounds pretty cool. 00:36:59.271 --> 00:37:01.721 You know, whether or not that happens, I have no freaking 00:37:01.721 --> 00:37:04.391 idea, but, it is definitely. 00:37:04.836 --> 00:37:07.126 a risk to, you know, to WordPress. 00:37:07.346 --> 00:37:10.556 But don't forget, it's not just a risk to WordPress with 48 percent 00:37:10.556 --> 00:37:14.666 of the content marketing space, or, excuse me, content management space. 00:37:15.466 --> 00:37:20.066 It's a risk to all these other platforms that have 1 percent and 00:37:20.326 --> 00:37:23.146 are already, and are charging people. 00:37:23.206 --> 00:37:25.216 It's a closed commercial system. 00:37:25.466 --> 00:37:27.076 So who's at risk more? 00:37:27.076 --> 00:37:31.406 Wix or, Wix and Squarespace or WordPress, you know? 00:37:31.976 --> 00:37:34.256 Yeah, but anyway, at the end of the day, AI site building 00:37:34.256 --> 00:37:35.776 is very underwhelming for me. 00:37:36.286 --> 00:37:41.806 Mark: Do you think, do you think, do you think it's a fair statement 00:37:41.816 --> 00:37:46.556 to say that the only thing that can kill WordPress is WordPress itself? 00:37:49.556 --> 00:37:50.076 Matt: no. 00:37:50.126 --> 00:37:54.536 No, because I think there is definitely a threat from, you know, AI. 00:37:54.746 --> 00:38:02.896 And, There's definitely threats from, from other open source platforms. 00:38:03.616 --> 00:38:06.296 you know, Shopify is a threat. 00:38:06.886 --> 00:38:11.376 I, I don't see it as, I don't see like an, I don't, I don't 00:38:11.376 --> 00:38:13.056 see an ending for WordPress. 00:38:13.326 --> 00:38:17.796 I don't think anything is as drastic as an ending to WordPress. 00:38:17.896 --> 00:38:19.986 it might fall out of popularity, but. 00:38:22.131 --> 00:38:27.061 You know, I don't see it being like dethroned completely because they're open 00:38:27.061 --> 00:38:33.641 source tools and packages that people have been using for decades at this point, you 00:38:33.641 --> 00:38:35.341 know, people are definitely still using I. 00:38:35.341 --> 00:38:35.551 R. 00:38:35.551 --> 00:38:35.961 C. 00:38:36.291 --> 00:38:39.561 And chat rooms, you know, versus social media. 00:38:39.991 --> 00:38:46.281 So, you know, I don't, I don't see it as grim as an outcome to wordpress. 00:38:47.351 --> 00:38:52.431 Mark: How did, how did the initial run up, how did that happen with WordPress? 00:38:52.431 --> 00:38:54.981 Like when, when you were going through that and you were like, I guess you 00:38:54.981 --> 00:38:56.591 were seeing like that kind of happen. 00:38:56.931 --> 00:38:59.711 Why, why would you, what were like maybe the top couple of reasons why 00:38:59.711 --> 00:39:01.941 you think that WordPress got to 43%? 00:39:02.861 --> 00:39:06.691 Matt: Oh, largely because of, well, number one, open source. 00:39:07.191 --> 00:39:10.381 a lot of it, and this is just my perspective. 00:39:10.381 --> 00:39:15.621 I'm sure other people have different perspectives, but, Open source number 00:39:15.621 --> 00:39:22.151 one number two Giving the credit back to Matt in the early days. 00:39:22.441 --> 00:39:28.851 You had somebody willing to to pursue Blogging and building out a blogging 00:39:28.861 --> 00:39:35.561 platform and That was right right place right time because blogging was 00:39:35.571 --> 00:39:42.891 the thing it was pre social media and You It, it started to become a site 00:39:42.891 --> 00:39:46.561 builder, you know, to a degree back then, because people kind of just 00:39:46.661 --> 00:39:51.241 only knew websites as very complex things or things that had text on it. 00:39:52.101 --> 00:39:55.451 So if you could build this thing that helped you publish things with text on 00:39:55.451 --> 00:39:56.711 it, you're like, Oh, this is pretty cool. 00:39:56.711 --> 00:40:01.311 And, yeah, just so many other factors. 00:40:01.321 --> 00:40:04.241 technology was getting better, faster, cheaper every day. 00:40:04.811 --> 00:40:11.651 it was really like the perfect storm to build this, this publishing tool and that 00:40:11.651 --> 00:40:19.661 ramped up with the rest of the economy of web design, where you front page, you 00:40:19.661 --> 00:40:22.541 know, Corel had website building tools. 00:40:22.541 --> 00:40:24.981 Apple had, Page mill. 00:40:24.981 --> 00:40:26.171 I don't remember what it was. 00:40:26.911 --> 00:40:27.341 Apple had. 00:40:27.381 --> 00:40:29.031 I mean, it was a whole market. 00:40:29.061 --> 00:40:32.911 Adobe flash like the consumer internet was happening. 00:40:33.461 --> 00:40:36.091 I mean, it was just perfect, perfect, perfect storm to 00:40:36.091 --> 00:40:37.231 get all these things going. 00:40:38.021 --> 00:40:44.961 And then you had the financial crisis of 2008 where That's when I started our 00:40:44.961 --> 00:40:47.291 agency that might I didn't lose a job. 00:40:47.301 --> 00:40:47.891 We sold. 00:40:47.901 --> 00:40:49.261 We used to run car dealerships. 00:40:49.491 --> 00:40:52.331 We sold our dealerships because General Motors was going bankrupt. 00:40:52.651 --> 00:40:53.601 and then we started this. 00:40:53.651 --> 00:40:58.241 We started our agency, but, you also had so many people who started so many 00:40:58.491 --> 00:41:01.971 agencies that are still in business today in the WordPress space started. 00:41:02.076 --> 00:41:04.736 Back then as well, because they were leaving their jobs 00:41:04.736 --> 00:41:06.016 or their job got shut down. 00:41:06.566 --> 00:41:11.596 So everybody kind of turned to this boom of, of WordPress because it was, 00:41:12.546 --> 00:41:15.666 it was amazing, you know, for that kind of technology was amazing to 00:41:15.666 --> 00:41:17.266 start a services business back then. 00:41:17.436 --> 00:41:19.116 And you saw it again with COVID, right? 00:41:19.396 --> 00:41:25.241 All of a sudden the jump in themes, plugins, WordPress hosting just 00:41:25.241 --> 00:41:29.441 frickin went off the charts because everyone was like, what do I do? 00:41:29.441 --> 00:41:33.261 I lost my job, I want to do something, or I have a business, and I need 00:41:33.261 --> 00:41:34.491 to start selling shit online. 00:41:34.971 --> 00:41:37.211 So another boom because of like the economy. 00:41:37.211 --> 00:41:40.961 So, there was a lot of stuff, you know, at play. 00:41:41.201 --> 00:41:45.581 And again, back to the open source side of it, if it were like commercial 00:41:45.581 --> 00:41:49.916 out of the gate, you would not have seen, It, you know, it would have 00:41:49.926 --> 00:41:55.246 never spread, you know, and then compound the community and all of us, 00:41:55.246 --> 00:41:56.906 spreading the knowledge of WordPress. 00:41:56.916 --> 00:41:59.226 That's, that's why it's grown, in my opinion. 00:42:00.786 --> 00:42:02.766 Mark: Okay, so right place, right time? 00:42:02.786 --> 00:42:04.576 Matt: Yeah, just a lot of other things, yeah. 00:42:06.276 --> 00:42:08.546 And Drupal was massive back then to Drupal. 00:42:08.566 --> 00:42:12.576 It was Drupal and WordPress was the arms race, and Drupal 00:42:12.586 --> 00:42:14.626 just didn't did not win out. 00:42:14.626 --> 00:42:15.716 It was much more complex. 00:42:15.716 --> 00:42:18.706 It was looked at much more of an enterprise type solution, 00:42:19.366 --> 00:42:21.986 and it was built with that. 00:42:22.156 --> 00:42:25.926 It was built with that mindset, and that's actually a good, that would add. 00:42:26.386 --> 00:42:31.706 You know, it could be a whole Documentary unto itself, but I was big in the in 00:42:31.706 --> 00:42:37.246 the Drupal That's I came into this whole market through Drupal And it wasn't for 00:42:37.246 --> 00:42:41.176 the designer that I was working with who was like Drupal's terrible to design 00:42:41.176 --> 00:42:46.876 with I need this thing called WordPress WordPress is way better and The DrupalCon, 00:42:46.886 --> 00:42:50.706 I forget what year I went, 2003, 2004. 00:42:50.706 --> 00:42:51.216 I can't remember. 00:42:51.216 --> 00:42:51.946 It was in Boston. 00:42:52.146 --> 00:42:56.596 It was freaking massive, but it was very, very corporate, 00:42:57.006 --> 00:42:58.266 like right out of the gate. 00:42:59.136 --> 00:43:02.736 and I think because of that, and because the company Acquia, like Dries 00:43:02.966 --> 00:43:08.456 Butart, who's the founder of Drupal, he started a company called Acquia. 00:43:09.631 --> 00:43:15.121 And it was very much more enterprise y than automatic was when Matt 00:43:15.121 --> 00:43:16.721 Mullenweg started Automatic. 00:43:17.181 --> 00:43:22.661 And I think that was a perfect example of, they had so many enterprise type 00:43:22.661 --> 00:43:24.861 clients and they catered to that market. 00:43:25.991 --> 00:43:28.891 That, that's the lane that Drupal stayed in. 00:43:30.081 --> 00:43:30.901 Still is. 00:43:31.541 --> 00:43:37.316 And WordPress was much more like, Mullenweg was just like, Freedom, man. 00:43:38.236 --> 00:43:40.146 Everybody wants a blog, dude. 00:43:40.516 --> 00:43:43.016 and Dreeze became much more of a corporate entity. 00:43:43.016 --> 00:43:45.616 And I remember when they, I was there when they announced Acquia. 00:43:46.036 --> 00:43:50.596 And people, I think, I'm pretty sure I heard boos come out of the crowd. 00:43:50.616 --> 00:43:53.686 Because you had a bunch of like open source developers were like, 00:43:53.786 --> 00:43:55.326 No, this is not what we want. 00:43:55.646 --> 00:43:57.766 We don't want to commercialize this software. 00:43:57.856 --> 00:44:01.406 And they did, and that was the path that they stuck to. 00:44:02.156 --> 00:44:02.366 Mark: Hmm. 00:44:02.816 --> 00:44:04.696 So was it open source to begin with you're saying? 00:44:04.706 --> 00:44:05.046 Oh, yeah. 00:44:05.346 --> 00:44:05.546 Yeah, it 00:44:05.556 --> 00:44:06.066 Matt: still is. 00:44:06.686 --> 00:44:07.066 Mark: Oh, it is. 00:44:07.066 --> 00:44:07.356 Okay. 00:44:07.406 --> 00:44:09.636 Yeah But okay, it's commercialized in a sense 00:44:14.646 --> 00:44:15.456 It's quite the ride 00:44:16.406 --> 00:44:19.166 Matt: Well, that's again you want to touch on the free versus paid stuff 00:44:19.756 --> 00:44:20.316 Mark: we can do that. 00:44:20.366 --> 00:44:20.676 Yeah. 00:44:21.176 --> 00:44:27.521 Yeah, I mean like for freed versus paid specifically with you know, I don't know. 00:44:27.521 --> 00:44:28.591 Which way do we want to go here? 00:44:28.591 --> 00:44:31.091 Just I mean, cause again, I'm thinking of it from a different angle, but 00:44:31.301 --> 00:44:33.431 I don't know what, what questions you have or where would you start? 00:44:33.431 --> 00:44:34.851 What's your, what's 00:44:34.851 --> 00:44:35.921 Matt: your, what's your angle? 00:44:36.021 --> 00:44:38.661 You said you, you said it could take a whole seminar for free 00:44:38.671 --> 00:44:40.951 versus paid or something like that. 00:44:41.021 --> 00:44:41.341 You said something. 00:44:41.501 --> 00:44:41.841 Mark: Okay. 00:44:41.861 --> 00:44:42.421 So yeah. 00:44:42.471 --> 00:44:46.831 So like free versus paid plugins, like with, with, I don't know, just my 00:44:46.851 --> 00:44:50.831 opinion, my lived experience and what I see with other people is that WordPress 00:44:50.831 --> 00:44:53.081 is fantastic because it is open source. 00:44:53.251 --> 00:44:53.581 It is. 00:44:53.911 --> 00:44:56.701 More or less free to kind of like get started with, and you could 00:44:56.701 --> 00:44:59.131 spin up a blog, just paying for hosting and things like that. 00:44:59.941 --> 00:45:04.601 I think the idea of having 50, 000 or so, whatever plugins in the repository 00:45:04.611 --> 00:45:06.781 is in a lot of ways, awesome. 00:45:06.821 --> 00:45:11.191 And in a lot of ways, potentially, obviously scary for a litany of 00:45:11.191 --> 00:45:14.431 reasons, but you don't obviously, if you, again, this is the whole thing 00:45:14.431 --> 00:45:16.331 is you have to almost go through. 00:45:16.861 --> 00:45:19.811 the, the gauntlet to know some of these things. 00:45:19.851 --> 00:45:23.811 if you're a DIYer, like if you're a DIYer and you just search, okay, 00:45:23.811 --> 00:45:25.731 I'm making my pottery website. 00:45:25.731 --> 00:45:27.531 I have no idea how to put a form on here. 00:45:27.561 --> 00:45:32.191 I got to type in, you know, give me a free like forms on WordPress or something. 00:45:32.891 --> 00:45:35.191 Or maybe there's something that's kind of already in there. 00:45:35.291 --> 00:45:37.171 I don't know, but like you have to like type in forms 00:45:37.171 --> 00:45:38.921 into the, into the plugin repo. 00:45:38.941 --> 00:45:42.281 I remember doing this and I'm like, okay, I have no idea what any of these are. 00:45:42.651 --> 00:45:44.361 Am I going to go cross reference these? 00:45:44.361 --> 00:45:45.141 Am I just going to. 00:45:45.661 --> 00:45:46.211 Whatever. 00:45:46.271 --> 00:45:49.111 So then you pick any free one and then you have something in there. 00:45:49.111 --> 00:45:50.321 If it does the job, that's cool. 00:45:50.331 --> 00:45:52.711 If you need something more at some point, maybe you pay for that one 00:45:52.711 --> 00:45:54.131 or maybe you find a different one. 00:45:54.651 --> 00:45:59.611 So it's like really cool that that's an option, but for DIY wires, I don't 00:45:59.611 --> 00:46:02.591 even know how we talk about it because most of the time they're probably like, 00:46:02.591 --> 00:46:07.661 I don't even know how you, I don't know at what point you get to as a DIY 00:46:07.661 --> 00:46:11.971 where you're like actively going to pay for something that you, that you can't 00:46:12.731 --> 00:46:15.041 like directly see the value prop for. 00:46:15.386 --> 00:46:18.946 if it was like some sort of software that premium plugin that was specific for 00:46:18.946 --> 00:46:20.936 that and there was no free option, maybe. 00:46:21.456 --> 00:46:22.626 but that's one piece of it. 00:46:22.656 --> 00:46:25.636 And then the second part of it though is the way that I think more is like 00:46:25.656 --> 00:46:27.656 I'm building websites for other people. 00:46:27.956 --> 00:46:29.646 So, and I'm managing those websites. 00:46:29.706 --> 00:46:33.606 I just literally don't want to use a bunch of free plugins because not that there's 00:46:33.606 --> 00:46:39.496 anything wrong with free plugins, but it's probably gonna limit me in some capacity. 00:46:39.766 --> 00:46:45.656 It's probably gonna be Somewhat less supported in a way, like it's going to 00:46:45.656 --> 00:46:49.486 be less funded because it's free most likely unless it has a premium counterpart 00:46:49.486 --> 00:46:52.176 that's whatever that's, that's, that's generating revenue and things. 00:46:52.526 --> 00:46:55.896 But the other thing is I just want to have like less headaches in a way and 00:46:56.346 --> 00:46:59.916 that is too much of a generalization is some free plugins are perfect. 00:46:59.916 --> 00:47:02.456 It'll never give you any trouble, but that's the way that I think. 00:47:02.466 --> 00:47:05.986 And I feel like if I'm paying, then I, I ought to be receiving better service. 00:47:05.986 --> 00:47:09.446 I ought to be having less problems and I have a reason to actually complain. 00:47:09.861 --> 00:47:11.591 If I, if that does happen. 00:47:12.351 --> 00:47:14.951 So it's really two, again it's a two sided thing just because 00:47:14.951 --> 00:47:16.051 of the nature of WordPress. 00:47:16.081 --> 00:47:18.661 But that's kind of the high level of like free versus paid. 00:47:18.661 --> 00:47:22.101 I feel like a lot of, like it's different for everyone, but if you're building 00:47:22.101 --> 00:47:24.701 for other people, there's, there's, I feel like there's definitely an argument 00:47:24.711 --> 00:47:26.456 to choose premium more so than free. 00:47:26.746 --> 00:47:28.926 And free stuff if necessary. 00:47:29.566 --> 00:47:29.916 Matt: Yeah. 00:47:30.086 --> 00:47:31.786 I mean, it's, it's two different problems, right? 00:47:31.786 --> 00:47:34.946 So if you say Oh, the end user has issues, difficulty navigating 00:47:34.946 --> 00:47:36.456 the, the plugin repository. 00:47:36.456 --> 00:47:37.296 Absolutely. 00:47:37.636 --> 00:47:37.896 Right. 00:47:37.906 --> 00:47:40.836 I think everyone, you know, agrees on that. 00:47:40.876 --> 00:47:41.366 And. 00:47:42.101 --> 00:47:44.831 that's a whole, you know, conundrum onto itself. 00:47:44.831 --> 00:47:47.421 We've seen plenty of, of issues. 00:47:47.421 --> 00:47:50.491 We talked about this last time, back in the day themes, you could 00:47:50.491 --> 00:47:51.871 just put your theme up there. 00:47:51.871 --> 00:47:54.881 If you review the most themes that would get you hundreds of thousands 00:47:54.881 --> 00:47:58.611 of dollars in sales per year from having that top spot, that exposure, 00:47:59.011 --> 00:48:00.301 you know, plug in the same thing. 00:48:00.301 --> 00:48:05.341 And once you got into the plugin repo, effectively you could, This has been an 00:48:05.341 --> 00:48:09.721 issue for many years and I think it's a lot better now, but there was a time where 00:48:09.721 --> 00:48:15.611 man, once you got past the initial check of the plugin review team, once you're 00:48:15.611 --> 00:48:19.961 in, You could just change your plug in and do whatever the hell you wanted to do. 00:48:20.401 --> 00:48:21.871 you know, and get away with stuff. 00:48:21.951 --> 00:48:25.251 Little, little up sells, little nagging up sells, right? 00:48:25.261 --> 00:48:27.411 You know, in terms of commercializing the software. 00:48:28.361 --> 00:48:29.601 Whereas themes was always different. 00:48:29.621 --> 00:48:33.366 Every time you made a commitment, Every time you made a commit to 00:48:33.366 --> 00:48:36.316 the theme, they would review it before it would, you know, go live. 00:48:36.316 --> 00:48:39.096 So there was like, and there was always this debate of wow, why do the themes 00:48:39.096 --> 00:48:40.286 get treated different than the plugins? 00:48:40.316 --> 00:48:42.916 Well, because there's so many more plugins and plugins has 00:48:42.916 --> 00:48:44.136 so much more code than themes. 00:48:44.146 --> 00:48:45.876 So there's just not enough manpower. 00:48:46.056 --> 00:48:47.426 Then that would snowball in. 00:48:47.631 --> 00:48:49.231 Well, what are we doing here? 00:48:50.011 --> 00:48:55.091 Why not make us, and you just saw this and Vato sold to Shutterstock 00:48:55.161 --> 00:48:58.811 for quarter of a billion dollars or whatever the number was, Envato and 00:48:58.811 --> 00:49:02.431 theme forest was massive back 2008, 2012. 00:49:02.441 --> 00:49:04.221 Like their run was ridiculous. 00:49:04.611 --> 00:49:07.551 And people would always say, well, look, look at this theme. 00:49:07.846 --> 00:49:10.056 theme space, marketplace over here. 00:49:10.056 --> 00:49:11.746 Why can't we have that at wordpress. 00:49:11.746 --> 00:49:12.066 org? 00:49:12.606 --> 00:49:16.166 you know, and that's, that's still a, a, a debate for some, like why 00:49:16.166 --> 00:49:20.736 not have verified users, little check mark next to your name? 00:49:20.986 --> 00:49:22.456 why can't we have better support? 00:49:22.456 --> 00:49:23.996 Why can't we have better data? 00:49:24.276 --> 00:49:29.266 So yeah, like improving that experience is, has always been a thing. 00:49:29.756 --> 00:49:32.286 one, I think just, just not enough. 00:49:32.346 --> 00:49:34.516 It's just the sheer structure and. 00:49:35.336 --> 00:49:36.946 Manpower that would take. 00:49:38.266 --> 00:49:39.136 Remember, wordpress. 00:49:39.136 --> 00:49:41.946 org, is a non profit. 00:49:41.946 --> 00:49:45.076 It doesn't, it's not an, it's not a commercial entity. 00:49:45.456 --> 00:49:49.826 So it's not oh yeah, we'll just hire a bunch of people and just, just do it. 00:49:50.216 --> 00:49:54.026 there could be a way to do it and everybody would be taxed just like 00:49:54.026 --> 00:49:58.296 you're taxed at Apple 30%, but the distribution channel is pretty massive. 00:49:58.296 --> 00:50:01.696 So I had always said back when I was selling themes and plugins, tax me. 00:50:02.096 --> 00:50:05.196 I want a trusted distribution channel. 00:50:05.376 --> 00:50:06.636 And that would have been the place. 00:50:07.396 --> 00:50:08.446 That's one half of your question. 00:50:08.456 --> 00:50:11.426 The other half of the question is yeah, man, picking free versus commercial. 00:50:11.716 --> 00:50:18.286 A good agency owner service person should always be looking to, you 00:50:18.286 --> 00:50:22.016 know, hedge their, business continuity or whatever you want to call it. 00:50:22.016 --> 00:50:22.216 Right. 00:50:22.216 --> 00:50:25.386 So very important plugins. 00:50:25.996 --> 00:50:31.226 Page builders, forms, themes, you know, whatever it is that you're, that 00:50:31.226 --> 00:50:34.456 you're, you know, e commerce, other, you know, other things that are in 00:50:34.456 --> 00:50:39.096 there that are like detrimental to your, to your support of a customer. 00:50:39.476 --> 00:50:43.656 Absolutely, you should have a commercial license to get that commercial support. 00:50:44.346 --> 00:50:50.966 trusted, you know, reliable, and, Works with the business and you know that makes 00:50:51.236 --> 00:50:56.956 total sense because the last thing you want to do is Sell a big client project 00:50:56.956 --> 00:51:00.656 and then you know, you're just using some throwaway plug in that breaks the 00:51:00.656 --> 00:51:05.856 site And then there's no support and then you have to go back to tell and 00:51:05.856 --> 00:51:13.076 this was very very prominent on the theme forest slash Code Canyon days because 00:51:13.346 --> 00:51:17.136 again, I've told the story before One of the low hanging fruit customers we 00:51:17.136 --> 00:51:21.776 used to go after to a real estate agents still shitty websites today shitty 00:51:21.776 --> 00:51:24.236 websites back then and What did we do? 00:51:24.236 --> 00:51:25.026 We used? 00:51:25.676 --> 00:51:29.896 Business directory plugins off of Envato because I was foolish and I 00:51:29.896 --> 00:51:32.646 was like, oh, yeah 59 for this thing. 00:51:32.736 --> 00:51:37.876 Absolutely, and It's somebody in some unknown place in the world who's coded it 00:51:38.176 --> 00:51:43.661 and then it doesn't work Or the code is terrible and there's no documentation and 00:51:43.661 --> 00:51:46.081 then we're stuck holding the bag going. 00:51:46.141 --> 00:51:50.521 Oh, yeah Your site keeps crashing because you have too many real estate listings and 00:51:50.521 --> 00:51:55.691 this plugin just simply can't handle it Or there's some rogue like memory leak in 00:51:55.691 --> 00:52:00.351 the php and it's crashing the the hosting now again This was a long time ago. 00:52:00.351 --> 00:52:04.756 So those were big issues back then probably less today But yeah, it was, 00:52:04.816 --> 00:52:08.346 it was the worst because then you're like, God damn, you knew every weekend 00:52:08.566 --> 00:52:10.316 the site was going to crash, right? 00:52:10.326 --> 00:52:11.366 They're doing an open house. 00:52:11.416 --> 00:52:12.626 The site's going to crash. 00:52:13.446 --> 00:52:14.996 and that was poor code. 00:52:15.456 --> 00:52:18.326 and somebody, you're not getting support from, but there were 00:52:18.326 --> 00:52:21.786 solutions for many hundreds of dollars that service that market. 00:52:21.796 --> 00:52:25.806 And I was like, guys, I can't, I wasn't selling projects. 00:52:26.676 --> 00:52:29.466 high enough dollars to justify that fee. 00:52:29.666 --> 00:52:32.446 I was certainly wasn't going to pass it on to my client because I was trying 00:52:32.446 --> 00:52:35.486 to be the person who is just no, no, we're doing it all ourselves, man. 00:52:35.506 --> 00:52:35.906 We got it. 00:52:35.906 --> 00:52:36.446 This is us. 00:52:36.466 --> 00:52:37.556 We're custom coders. 00:52:37.916 --> 00:52:39.146 you know, that's early days. 00:52:39.146 --> 00:52:41.946 And then you learn your lessons and then you start to understand, oh, 00:52:42.126 --> 00:52:43.466 people don't care about the code. 00:52:43.466 --> 00:52:45.056 They want professional support. 00:52:45.386 --> 00:52:48.866 So add another zero at the end, tell them that you'll be there 00:52:48.866 --> 00:52:52.066 for them and be honest, you know, and the world's a better place. 00:52:52.066 --> 00:52:55.176 And you know, that those are lessons that, you know, I learned the hard way. 00:52:57.346 --> 00:53:00.546 Mark: Yeah, I mean, I, like I said, I've started there as well. 00:53:00.546 --> 00:53:04.046 I think everyone does, with the, with the free side of things, just 00:53:04.086 --> 00:53:05.676 because it's very easily accessible. 00:53:05.676 --> 00:53:08.466 But yeah, I mean, just for me, it was honestly, a lot of times 00:53:08.476 --> 00:53:10.666 it was a limitation thing because I couldn't do something with the 00:53:10.666 --> 00:53:12.696 free tool, whatever I wanted to do. 00:53:12.696 --> 00:53:16.596 And then I would, and then I would rank up and obviously the support is, 00:53:16.596 --> 00:53:20.196 you know, is huge as well when you're trying to deal with other clients. 00:53:20.196 --> 00:53:23.536 But again, it's two different problems for two different avatars and I 00:53:23.626 --> 00:53:25.976 don't know if that's ever going to be something that, I don't know. 00:53:25.976 --> 00:53:28.566 I'd be, I feel like I'd be interested to see, do a deep dive 00:53:28.566 --> 00:53:30.756 on any other platform as well. 00:53:30.806 --> 00:53:32.716 you know, we talked to Sam about Webflow. 00:53:34.376 --> 00:53:38.066 You know, I wonder how they handle end users. 00:53:39.001 --> 00:53:43.091 Concerns versus agency concerns, or they're just not at the scale 00:53:43.091 --> 00:53:44.641 that it, it actually matters. 00:53:45.131 --> 00:53:45.741 It doesn't matter. 00:53:45.791 --> 00:53:46.171 You can hear 00:53:46.171 --> 00:53:46.561 Matt: it. 00:53:46.681 --> 00:53:49.931 It doesn't matter because every one of their users is paid. 00:53:52.151 --> 00:53:52.561 Right. 00:53:53.341 --> 00:53:55.021 So remember wordpress. 00:53:55.021 --> 00:53:57.081 org doesn't, doesn't make a dime. 00:53:59.071 --> 00:54:03.781 There's that, that kind of that just doesn't exist in, in the wordpress. 00:54:03.781 --> 00:54:05.191 org world. 00:54:05.481 --> 00:54:06.761 No one at wordpress. 00:54:06.761 --> 00:54:11.791 org is actively thinking, are we going to make payroll this month? 00:54:12.781 --> 00:54:16.001 do we have to like, what do we have to do to keep this business going? 00:54:16.271 --> 00:54:20.131 It's a very, very different, very, very different animal. 00:54:20.691 --> 00:54:26.061 Whereas Webflow is constantly looking at the competition, marketing, sales, 00:54:26.101 --> 00:54:30.871 adding features, charging people 15, 000 for bandwidth, you know, like 00:54:31.331 --> 00:54:35.321 that, like their business model is, is completely, completely different. 00:54:35.981 --> 00:54:41.741 yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I think a lot of your concerns and questions 00:54:42.091 --> 00:54:47.651 would be smoothed over when we see the day that automatic becomes much more. 00:54:50.656 --> 00:54:53.236 The front runner for WordPress. 00:54:53.236 --> 00:54:59.656 And, oh by the way, get WordPress, you can get a free version 00:54:59.656 --> 00:55:00.946 of WordPress at wordpress. 00:55:00.946 --> 00:55:01.276 org. 00:55:02.706 --> 00:55:07.206 Hmm, like that'll be the, that'll be the thing that really changes like, 00:55:08.321 --> 00:55:12.611 the way this is all perceived, because I, I honestly think that at some 00:55:12.611 --> 00:55:16.591 point, automatic needs to be much more profitable in the face of all these other 00:55:16.591 --> 00:55:18.921 hosting companies in order to survive. 00:55:19.421 --> 00:55:24.231 and you will see, I said this before, countless times, you will 00:55:24.231 --> 00:55:27.001 see get wordpress at wordpress. 00:55:27.001 --> 00:55:27.461 com. 00:55:28.031 --> 00:55:31.701 Get, get, Get WordPress wherever you want to host your, just like we say, 00:55:31.751 --> 00:55:34.421 listen to your podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts, run this 00:55:34.431 --> 00:55:38.351 WordPress website, wherever you run WordPress websites with Jetpack. 00:55:39.861 --> 00:55:44.881 And then in an eight point font below that, download your version 00:55:44.881 --> 00:55:47.171 of WordPress for free, right? 00:55:47.171 --> 00:55:48.971 Like the open source version that we know today 00:55:49.931 --> 00:55:56.051 Mark: is, is how help me understand how that situation. 00:55:57.056 --> 00:55:59.176 Is different than the one you outlined with Drupal. 00:56:00.776 --> 00:56:02.746 Matt: It's not, it's the same. 00:56:03.346 --> 00:56:04.216 It's not the future. 00:56:04.216 --> 00:56:06.106 I'm like, I'm not looking forward to it. 00:56:07.016 --> 00:56:07.336 Right. 00:56:07.656 --> 00:56:12.266 I just think that that's going to be the only path really that automatic can go 00:56:12.736 --> 00:56:19.066 in the future, unless Matt comes up with some amazing, you know, idea, but this 00:56:19.066 --> 00:56:23.926 is why he gets so crazy about, you know, places like GoDaddy who make billions of 00:56:23.926 --> 00:56:27.726 dollars on web hosting, much more than Automattic does, and all these other 00:56:27.726 --> 00:56:31.986 web hosts because they're making a lot more money than Automattic, hosting. 00:56:33.436 --> 00:56:38.386 Mark: With that, with that, the way that I interpret that, like reading 00:56:38.396 --> 00:56:43.716 into all that is obviously open source and closed source things have their 00:56:43.756 --> 00:56:49.251 own Inherent problems and stuff, but is that, is that a separate concern? 00:56:50.491 --> 00:56:53.441 Is, is, is WordPress being open source? 00:56:53.471 --> 00:56:55.851 Am I, is this get conflated too often? 00:56:55.851 --> 00:57:00.331 We're like, Oh, the, the, the idea that it's open source is 00:57:00.561 --> 00:57:05.841 inherently hurting or benefiting what we just talked about there. 00:57:06.771 --> 00:57:08.921 Is that a different, do you understand what I'm saying? 00:57:08.981 --> 00:57:11.111 is that a different concern? 00:57:11.766 --> 00:57:15.336 Like open source is a category of literally just like code, right? 00:57:15.336 --> 00:57:18.166 that's the, it just means like you can, you could fork the code or the 00:57:18.166 --> 00:57:21.086 code's proprietary, like proprietary versus not proprietary, more or less. 00:57:21.086 --> 00:57:21.346 Right. 00:57:21.616 --> 00:57:22.396 Like that piece of it. 00:57:22.836 --> 00:57:23.296 Matt: Yeah. 00:57:23.296 --> 00:57:25.956 I mean, yes, there's legalities around it. 00:57:25.956 --> 00:57:28.066 Like the GPL license, like you can't. 00:57:28.516 --> 00:57:28.806 Right. 00:57:29.016 --> 00:57:29.266 Yeah. 00:57:29.296 --> 00:57:32.056 That's, but it does not hurt. 00:57:32.086 --> 00:57:33.386 It does not hurt it for sure. 00:57:33.716 --> 00:57:37.806 Mark: Well, what I'm saying though, is like a private company can be 00:57:37.806 --> 00:57:40.996 running a open source project. 00:57:42.281 --> 00:57:42.891 Automatic. 00:57:42.951 --> 00:57:44.241 Matt: Automatic is the example, 00:57:44.811 --> 00:57:45.181 Mark: right? 00:57:45.281 --> 00:57:49.611 So that's not, those two things aren't like mutually exclusive. 00:57:49.611 --> 00:57:51.851 You can't like, it doesn't have to go one way or the other. 00:57:51.851 --> 00:57:54.941 It doesn't have to be a non, are you saying that wordpress. 00:57:56.091 --> 00:58:00.671 org being a nonprofit doesn't have to be like that or 00:58:00.911 --> 00:58:01.351 Matt: yeah. 00:58:01.381 --> 00:58:11.516 So, so, other examples, Red Hat Linux, Ubuntu Linux, same thing. 00:58:11.826 --> 00:58:16.976 They all have open sources, just, well, I say it's just, but when it, in 00:58:17.016 --> 00:58:20.106 terms of business, it is a particular. 00:58:21.381 --> 00:58:25.581 It's not really a business model, but it's something that you can do in business. 00:58:25.811 --> 00:58:27.831 Android is open source, right? 00:58:28.391 --> 00:58:28.761 You know, 00:58:28.801 --> 00:58:29.821 Mark: that's what I think is it? 00:58:30.091 --> 00:58:34.081 The distinction is open source because it sounds like it's some people and 00:58:34.081 --> 00:58:35.621 I've often played it open source. 00:58:35.651 --> 00:58:39.761 The specific distinction is open source is not a business model. 00:58:39.771 --> 00:58:41.341 It doesn't have anything to do with that. 00:58:41.851 --> 00:58:47.571 It is just the categorization and classification of the project 00:58:47.601 --> 00:58:49.211 or the product or whatever. 00:58:49.801 --> 00:58:50.131 Right? 00:58:50.131 --> 00:58:51.321 So it's and you can actually 00:58:51.321 --> 00:58:52.031 Matt: see the code. 00:58:52.471 --> 00:58:52.931 Exactly. 00:58:52.931 --> 00:58:53.461 That's what I mean. 00:58:55.141 --> 00:58:59.001 Mark: Proprietary or patented or some shit like proprietary would 00:58:59.002 --> 00:59:04.171 be the antonym of open source. 00:59:04.281 --> 00:59:04.521 Yeah. 00:59:04.541 --> 00:59:07.631 So that's your project, your code base, whatever is open source or 00:59:07.631 --> 00:59:12.121 proprietary, but then your business doesn't have to be the business model 00:59:12.181 --> 00:59:15.851 would be, or business type would be like for profit or nonprofit. 00:59:15.851 --> 00:59:17.621 Those two things are separate. 00:59:18.591 --> 00:59:22.871 things like you could have a for profit business running an open source project. 00:59:23.051 --> 00:59:24.821 You could have a nonprofit business. 00:59:25.501 --> 00:59:27.761 Well, I guess you probably couldn't have a nonprofit business running a 00:59:27.821 --> 00:59:29.631 for profit, like a proprietary product. 00:59:30.131 --> 00:59:32.211 Matt: It wouldn't be like the classification of business. 00:59:32.211 --> 00:59:36.201 You'd you, your question really would be how does that business make money? 00:59:36.831 --> 00:59:38.831 And it's, it's very easy. 00:59:38.841 --> 00:59:42.751 Cause again, like you look at red hat Ubuntu as to like software open source 00:59:42.751 --> 00:59:46.561 examples is you can go and do it yourself. 00:59:46.561 --> 00:59:47.111 Customer. 00:59:47.831 --> 00:59:49.021 Or you pay us to do it. 00:59:49.361 --> 00:59:50.271 That's the trade off. 00:59:50.501 --> 00:59:54.621 The same thing you see with plugins, like free versus paid plugins, is the 00:59:54.621 --> 01:00:00.691 same thing WordPress could do if they shifted the way they pa if Automatic 01:00:00.691 --> 01:00:02.411 shifted the way they package themselves. 01:00:02.641 --> 01:00:07.481 Which would be very difficult because the WordPress foundation theoretically, 01:00:07.901 --> 01:00:13.631 is set up to protect WordPress, the patents of, or the copyright of WordPress, 01:00:13.682 --> 01:00:16.882 the logo, the namespace and WordPress. 01:00:16.882 --> 01:00:17.282 org. 01:00:17.642 --> 01:00:25.422 but there could be a world where you see WordPress position itself as, and you kind 01:00:25.422 --> 01:00:28.222 of see it now with the, the hosting page. 01:00:28.632 --> 01:00:29.472 if we go to wordpress. 01:00:30.522 --> 01:00:37.262 org slash hosting, I think finally, I forgot the E in WordPress. 01:00:37.362 --> 01:00:37.872 WordPress. 01:00:41.137 --> 01:00:41.647 Oh, how about that? 01:00:41.647 --> 01:00:44.057 It redirects it slash hosting. 01:00:44.757 --> 01:00:45.597 So wordpress. 01:00:45.597 --> 01:00:45.897 com. 01:00:45.907 --> 01:00:47.477 I don't know when wordpress. 01:00:47.477 --> 01:00:52.897 com actually has been on the hosting page, but it's blue host hosting or 01:00:52.897 --> 01:00:54.427 dream hosts and WordPress, right? 01:00:54.427 --> 01:00:58.397 And this is another highly debated topic, but the point is, is WordPress could 01:00:58.397 --> 01:01:03.207 position itself to say the best place to experience hosted WordPress is wordpress. 01:01:03.207 --> 01:01:03.617 com. 01:01:03.847 --> 01:01:07.687 The best way to experience WordPress without wordpress. 01:01:07.687 --> 01:01:09.147 com is to get it with Jetpack. 01:01:10.862 --> 01:01:14.962 And then for the rest of you fools, go grab it and download 01:01:14.962 --> 01:01:17.042 it and host it somewhere else if you want to play with it. 01:01:17.212 --> 01:01:20.412 But that's, that's the way that big businesses do open source. 01:01:20.662 --> 01:01:24.352 Here's my free operating system, Red Hat and Ubuntu Linux. 01:01:25.052 --> 01:01:31.012 Go run it on your own, or pay for the commercial license, and we'll support you. 01:01:31.552 --> 01:01:33.212 It's the same thing that we do with plugins. 01:01:33.842 --> 01:01:37.012 Get it for free, or upgrade here and we'll give you support. 01:01:38.947 --> 01:01:39.327 Mark: Okay. 01:01:39.327 --> 01:01:44.337 So then I think the last thing to pull that together then is that why, 01:01:44.617 --> 01:01:49.577 when we, when we made the comparison between that automatic, it's already 01:01:49.577 --> 01:01:53.237 kind of pseudo led, it seems like by automatic, obviously, but like a more 01:01:53.237 --> 01:01:58.597 front facing automatic lead on the WordPress situation in that reality, 01:01:58.717 --> 01:02:04.417 compared that to the Drupal reality, why is that reality of WordPress not 01:02:04.717 --> 01:02:08.167 your favorable Outcome and what would be 01:02:11.327 --> 01:02:16.856 That's probably a pretty deep question, yeah Yeah, 01:02:16.857 --> 01:02:23.967 Matt: I mean honestly on the high level I I Still probably would I 01:02:23.977 --> 01:02:27.107 would not mind that I wouldn't mind. 01:02:29.487 --> 01:02:38.372 I don't care if WordPress did that It would be a I wouldn't like it from man. 01:02:39.552 --> 01:02:41.882 We all kind of feel like we've built this thing together. 01:02:41.922 --> 01:02:49.822 We've all been around this for so long that it kind of would feel weird, to 01:02:49.822 --> 01:02:53.662 kind of like push aside now, of course we're just theory crafting here. 01:02:53.662 --> 01:02:56.252 We don't really know like this is going to happen, but if it did, 01:02:58.132 --> 01:03:02.202 to kind of push aside the word, the free open source side of it. 01:03:02.612 --> 01:03:08.402 And kind of like hide it a little bit and put it in its own little like 01:03:08.402 --> 01:03:10.112 compartment and be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:03:10.112 --> 01:03:11.012 We got this over here. 01:03:11.332 --> 01:03:12.582 that would kind of feel bad. 01:03:12.612 --> 01:03:15.912 I, you know, it would be so hard to do because the community is so 01:03:15.912 --> 01:03:20.582 large and so vocal and WordCamps already run through the foundation. 01:03:20.582 --> 01:03:24.222 Remember WordCamps are a foundation thing, not an automatic thing. 01:03:25.212 --> 01:03:25.572 Okay. 01:03:25.662 --> 01:03:27.522 It's not, it's not an automatic event. 01:03:27.562 --> 01:03:29.002 It's a foundation event. 01:03:29.832 --> 01:03:32.252 So, the community is still pretty strong. 01:03:33.312 --> 01:03:33.992 in that space. 01:03:34.042 --> 01:03:35.072 I would not mind it. 01:03:35.162 --> 01:03:37.542 They're just not like it and I would not mind it. 01:03:37.742 --> 01:03:44.342 What I wouldn't want is for WordPress to be owned by Salesforce because forget 01:03:44.342 --> 01:03:47.642 it, you know, that's the kiss of death. 01:03:48.212 --> 01:03:52.582 So again, I keep saying this automatic is still the best steward for WordPress, 01:03:53.302 --> 01:03:58.102 even if they position themselves, And I also think that would be the 01:03:58.112 --> 01:04:04.942 medicine we would all kind of need to swallow to a degree to be like, yes, we 01:04:04.942 --> 01:04:08.102 know you have to monetize to survive. 01:04:08.152 --> 01:04:11.382 It's the same thing us plugin developers say, right? 01:04:11.712 --> 01:04:16.252 If you have a free plugin in the repo and people are bashing your free plugin or 01:04:16.282 --> 01:04:23.817 asking for more and you're like, well, Give me 59 bucks, man, and buy a license. 01:04:23.817 --> 01:04:25.837 And I can survive and continue to do this. 01:04:26.657 --> 01:04:29.777 that's why a lot of people are, you know, should be against the lifetime deals. 01:04:29.837 --> 01:04:33.947 you saw this with bricks, they had lifetime deals, but obviously to survive, 01:04:34.317 --> 01:04:35.627 you got to charge your customers. 01:04:36.107 --> 01:04:37.657 You have, you need money to come in. 01:04:38.227 --> 01:04:38.717 and guess what? 01:04:38.717 --> 01:04:40.047 Those prices should go up. 01:04:41.477 --> 01:04:44.847 You know, like I put this out as a poll the other day. 01:04:45.277 --> 01:04:49.837 How many people have raised their prices in the WordPress space both, on the 01:04:49.837 --> 01:04:53.267 software side and the hourly pricing side? 01:04:54.527 --> 01:04:58.757 Because, man, I'm talking to different random ass contractors, 01:04:59.057 --> 01:05:01.187 pest control people, right? 01:05:01.257 --> 01:05:02.087 Squirrels. 01:05:02.707 --> 01:05:03.057 You know? 01:05:03.057 --> 01:05:06.237 And then the prices are just outrageous. 01:05:06.557 --> 01:05:08.187 And they're like, well, the price is gone. 01:05:08.187 --> 01:05:09.437 Everything is so much more expensive. 01:05:09.457 --> 01:05:14.077 And then I sit here and go, man, I haven't seen A WordPress plug in 01:05:14.077 --> 01:05:15.977 raised their prices in a decade. 01:05:16.247 --> 01:05:16.587 Mark: Yeah. 01:05:16.887 --> 01:05:17.317 Matt: You know? 01:05:17.457 --> 01:05:19.737 Are, are the consultants raising their prices? 01:05:19.737 --> 01:05:23.157 Because And then the thing that kills me is when these contractors, 01:05:23.157 --> 01:05:24.237 they don't even get back to you. 01:05:24.597 --> 01:05:25.437 They don't even care. 01:05:26.297 --> 01:05:26.657 Right? 01:05:27.827 --> 01:05:32.797 Had a guy come, put mulch, in my yard, cut my grass, do the, the spring clean up. 01:05:33.177 --> 01:05:35.467 Cracked the side of my stairs with his lawnmower. 01:05:36.127 --> 01:05:37.107 Didn't even tell me. 01:05:37.417 --> 01:05:38.967 Sent them a message with a photo. 01:05:39.007 --> 01:05:41.547 Hey, what's up with this stare that you broke? 01:05:41.897 --> 01:05:47.787 Yeah, I saw that I couldn't really couldn't do much about it Awesome, you 01:05:47.787 --> 01:05:52.842 know, I don't go into a client's website delete a bunch of pages and then Chewing 01:05:52.842 --> 01:05:54.732 on an apple when they call me up going. 01:05:54.952 --> 01:05:56.262 Hey, what's up with all those pages? 01:05:56.902 --> 01:06:01.722 Yeah, I deleted him Sorry, and then just move on with my life, you know But 01:06:01.902 --> 01:06:04.882 that's a whole like, you know traditional business versus online business because 01:06:04.882 --> 01:06:07.392 there's so much more competition in our space I think a lot of people are 01:06:07.392 --> 01:06:10.932 afraid to go up in price Customer can just be like, okay mark delete you move 01:06:10.932 --> 01:06:14.782 on to the next guy Who's gonna charge me 50 bucks an hour to not saying that 01:06:14.792 --> 01:06:18.942 that's what you charge But you know, the idea is you know, all of this stuff 01:06:18.962 --> 01:06:23.697 is is so volatile You anyway, I forgot where I went or how I got on that, but. 01:06:24.617 --> 01:06:26.197 Mark: Well, just quick point on the pricing thing. 01:06:26.197 --> 01:06:26.377 Yeah. 01:06:26.377 --> 01:06:31.127 I mean, I think if you're a reasonable person or from stuff, cause like I say 01:06:31.127 --> 01:06:34.147 reasonable, but it's if, I guess if you're making any money, like doing 01:06:34.167 --> 01:06:37.017 things that we're doing, like I always think these are incredible deals. 01:06:37.227 --> 01:06:41.047 I mean, any plugin for 59 a year, whatever, like 200 a year, whatever. 01:06:41.057 --> 01:06:43.447 I mean the amount of value that I'm getting out of that. 01:06:43.932 --> 01:06:46.312 software, you know, I'm happy to pay it. 01:06:46.342 --> 01:06:50.702 And then also it's if I don't pay it, like you said, it could be gone tomorrow. 01:06:50.702 --> 01:06:54.232 And now I have to factor in how much time, energy and money it's going to make 01:06:54.252 --> 01:06:58.742 to meet for, to find another, you know, solution that's going to do that because, 01:06:59.362 --> 01:07:02.632 you know, I wasn't paying or they weren't charging me for those types of things. 01:07:02.642 --> 01:07:04.372 So you really got to think about it a little differently. 01:07:04.442 --> 01:07:05.212 Oh, that's, yeah. 01:07:05.262 --> 01:07:07.542 Matt: That's how I got on that is because I was talking about the, 01:07:07.802 --> 01:07:09.642 the survivability of, of automatic. 01:07:09.642 --> 01:07:09.822 Yeah. 01:07:09.822 --> 01:07:11.092 At some point automatic. 01:07:11.787 --> 01:07:16.547 Has to start turning, you know more revenue other that they just keep 01:07:16.547 --> 01:07:20.947 going for more investments, and that's just another you know, slippery slope 01:07:20.947 --> 01:07:23.407 and Said it before I'll say it again. 01:07:23.407 --> 01:07:32.077 I think Matt is trying to outsmart the VCS and Be like I don't need this VC money. 01:07:32.717 --> 01:07:34.137 I can do this without you. 01:07:34.427 --> 01:07:41.067 The difference is it's it just means that You He's thinking that wordpress. 01:07:41.087 --> 01:07:45.697 com and jetpack are going to be the ways and he's got WP cloud now, which 01:07:45.697 --> 01:07:47.647 is the infrastructure for hosting. 01:07:47.647 --> 01:07:51.757 So that's another big moneymaker, that might soften the blow across all 01:07:51.757 --> 01:07:59.717 of this stuff, but certainly jetpack is the, that's the product, right? 01:07:59.897 --> 01:08:04.877 That's the product to monetize all of these free hosted 01:08:04.877 --> 01:08:06.487 websites everywhere in the world. 01:08:07.047 --> 01:08:07.397 And. 01:08:08.512 --> 01:08:11.042 It's only going to get more aggressive. 01:08:11.362 --> 01:08:13.762 But I also don't mind it because I understand you got to eat too. 01:08:15.372 --> 01:08:17.072 Mark: There's no way to market these things though. 01:08:17.112 --> 01:08:21.272 there's no way to market as a, as a non, even not even a nonprofit. 01:08:21.301 --> 01:08:23.122 I mean, I'm not saying there's, I don't know if there's a budget 01:08:23.122 --> 01:08:26.902 or anything, but that, but like you have Wix, and all that sort of 01:08:26.902 --> 01:08:28.702 stuff, but then you have wordpress. 01:08:28.702 --> 01:08:32.202 com, which effectively if positioned correctly and has those like, you 01:08:32.202 --> 01:08:35.897 know, standard tools in there, Couldn't there be a way where WordPress. 01:08:35.897 --> 01:08:39.697 com effectively becomes a direct competitor to those types of things 01:08:39.707 --> 01:08:42.867 with the Gutenberg baked in and all that sort of stuff where it's like literally, 01:08:43.487 --> 01:08:47.396 what, what does a random person know the difference between Wix and Squarespace? 01:08:47.397 --> 01:08:48.777 You know, I barely even know the difference. 01:08:48.777 --> 01:08:51.837 It's they're very, it's, they're very similar, you know? 01:08:52.087 --> 01:08:55.967 So it's like, what if we made Gutenberg, like spearheaded that, made that 01:08:55.967 --> 01:09:00.437 situation, Basically, like the core experience in WordPress, maybe this is the 01:09:00.437 --> 01:09:04.907 goal, but the core experience in WordPress is a direct competitor like a Squarespace. 01:09:05.157 --> 01:09:07.917 And then the marketing around that, again, I know there's not necessarily 01:09:07.917 --> 01:09:10.837 a budget, but like then the sentiment, and if we could market it in any 01:09:10.837 --> 01:09:13.727 way, becomes, hey, come over here. 01:09:14.466 --> 01:09:18.557 Because it's kind of the same, maybe have, you actually do have better features, you 01:09:18.557 --> 01:09:20.697 do have more of a, more, more headroom. 01:09:21.027 --> 01:09:22.267 But then here's the beautiful part. 01:09:22.622 --> 01:09:23.052 Mrs. 01:09:23.082 --> 01:09:24.402 Pottery person. 01:09:25.042 --> 01:09:27.562 you need a website right now and you don't want to pay a lot of money. 01:09:27.592 --> 01:09:28.662 That totally makes sense. 01:09:28.712 --> 01:09:30.962 Everybody understands that you're getting your business off the ground. 01:09:31.222 --> 01:09:34.982 If one day though, your business does begin to, to blossom even more and you 01:09:34.982 --> 01:09:37.731 continue this, you are probably going to want to delegate some of these things like 01:09:37.732 --> 01:09:40.802 you would other stuff, and you're already going to be on a platform that is like 01:09:40.832 --> 01:09:45.042 extremely robust and you have a lot of headroom and you have a million people in 01:09:45.042 --> 01:09:46.822 this world that can handle that for you. 01:09:47.072 --> 01:09:50.432 I feel like that sentiment and that like customer journey and 01:09:50.432 --> 01:09:51.542 that thought process there. 01:09:51.962 --> 01:09:54.622 Might be something that could be ran with. 01:09:54.662 --> 01:09:56.192 I mean, I'm sure there's holes in that too. 01:09:56.192 --> 01:09:57.532 And that's, that's, that's 01:09:57.912 --> 01:09:59.262 Matt: how, that's how wordpress. 01:09:59.262 --> 01:10:00.002 com works now. 01:10:01.707 --> 01:10:01.967 Right. 01:10:01.977 --> 01:10:07.877 So that's, and that's only, a very recent change where they allowed, 01:10:08.297 --> 01:10:10.827 plugins to be installed on wordpress. 01:10:10.827 --> 01:10:15.356 com hosting, because for years, if not a decade, I don't know if it still is. 01:10:15.827 --> 01:10:16.387 WordPress. 01:10:16.387 --> 01:10:20.557 com was one massive WordPress multi site install. 01:10:21.352 --> 01:10:23.572 Now it used to be a thing that all these developers used 01:10:23.572 --> 01:10:24.732 to talk about how wordpress. 01:10:24.732 --> 01:10:27.322 com the whole instance of wordpress. 01:10:27.322 --> 01:10:31.222 com of everyone's website was one multi site install. 01:10:31.602 --> 01:10:33.482 I don't know if that's still the same. 01:10:33.982 --> 01:10:38.032 now that they, support so many different pricing plans now, and now 01:10:38.032 --> 01:10:43.372 they support installs, plugin and theme installs, they even have staging. 01:10:43.612 --> 01:10:48.662 So for, for your typical 30 bucks a month, you get your typical managed web hosting. 01:10:49.472 --> 01:10:54.082 Experience, themes and plugins, staging sites, FTP access, 01:10:54.112 --> 01:10:55.432 GitHub connections, etc. 01:10:55.572 --> 01:10:56.792 And the staging site works pretty good. 01:10:56.792 --> 01:10:59.332 I used it the other day when I was re launching the podcast setup. 01:10:59.332 --> 01:10:59.652 com. 01:10:59.652 --> 01:10:59.962 you know. 01:11:00.162 --> 01:11:04.672 So, and below 30 a month is the whole concept that you just illustrated. 01:11:05.032 --> 01:11:05.802 Start here. 01:11:05.852 --> 01:11:06.622 Start for free. 01:11:06.622 --> 01:11:08.802 If you just want a subdomain, janespottery. 01:11:08.802 --> 01:11:10.512 wordpress. 01:11:10.512 --> 01:11:11.702 com, go nuts. 01:11:12.482 --> 01:11:14.782 You'll have it on a subdomain and you'll have a little wordpress. 01:11:14.782 --> 01:11:15.412 com ad. 01:11:16.012 --> 01:11:19.252 If you want to add a domain name to it, I think it's 100 01:11:19.252 --> 01:11:20.482 bucks for the year or something. 01:11:20.482 --> 01:11:21.212 I don't know. 01:11:21.212 --> 01:11:23.712 And you can put your domain and it removes the ad. 01:11:24.172 --> 01:11:26.392 And then if you want to install themes and plugins from the 01:11:26.392 --> 01:11:29.282 repo, then it's 30 bucks a month. 01:11:29.302 --> 01:11:31.782 But why would you, when jetpack is there, right? 01:11:31.782 --> 01:11:33.592 From the very basic, basic user. 01:11:34.122 --> 01:11:34.382 Mark: Yeah. 01:11:34.712 --> 01:11:38.692 I mean, as a, as an agency owner of somebody that could potentially be 01:11:38.692 --> 01:11:42.382 doing business with that person in three to five years, I am a little I'm. 01:11:43.522 --> 01:11:46.122 kind of like holding back throw up in the sense of what I'd have to 01:11:46.122 --> 01:11:49.062 do to kind of make sure everything is on par there, but at least 01:11:49.072 --> 01:11:50.822 everything would be on the same place. 01:11:51.472 --> 01:11:55.522 Everything would be, they would already kind of know like WordPress a little bit. 01:11:55.862 --> 01:11:57.612 They would, they would already have the data there. 01:11:57.612 --> 01:12:00.622 I'm sure I could move, you know, the data, like the, I guess I don't 01:12:00.622 --> 01:12:02.862 know what that would be hosted with or where that, that domain is 01:12:02.882 --> 01:12:04.362 actually necessarily registered at. 01:12:04.362 --> 01:12:07.412 But my point is like at least they're kind of in the same place. 01:12:08.502 --> 01:12:09.122 You know what I mean? 01:12:09.272 --> 01:12:12.932 Rather than being over at Squarespace, and they're like, Oh, we've been paying 01:12:12.932 --> 01:12:15.182 Squarespace, we've been paying Wix, and then I have to come in and tell them, 01:12:15.192 --> 01:12:19.002 it's no, WordPress is actually, you know, the way to go as you continue to scale. 01:12:19.992 --> 01:12:22.262 so, I don't, I don't know. 01:12:22.312 --> 01:12:27.272 I just feel if we could, if that could be the sentiment, where, kind 01:12:27.272 --> 01:12:29.947 of push them, push them, And, and educate them now because they're 01:12:29.947 --> 01:12:31.147 not going to know the difference. 01:12:31.337 --> 01:12:33.427 They're not going to know the difference at first, and it's not going to 01:12:33.427 --> 01:12:34.597 matter really which way they go. 01:12:34.597 --> 01:12:38.247 It's just like later down the line, if most people are in agreement 01:12:38.247 --> 01:12:42.317 that WordPress is the place to end up for most things, obviously not, 01:12:42.357 --> 01:12:46.127 maybe not everything, I guess, then, yeah, I just feel like that's the, 01:12:47.687 --> 01:12:52.147 that's an option, for the marketing portion of it or the messaging. 01:12:52.797 --> 01:12:53.057 Matt: Yeah. 01:12:53.087 --> 01:12:53.987 I mean, this is. 01:12:54.217 --> 01:12:54.247 com. 01:12:55.767 --> 01:12:56.877 This is why automatic. 01:12:57.107 --> 01:13:04.277 com should befriend the us more, right? 01:13:04.337 --> 01:13:08.787 It should be more friendly with us because I would probably also argue 01:13:08.787 --> 01:13:10.377 that there's a lot of us in this space. 01:13:10.982 --> 01:13:15.262 That are some of the biggest referrers to the Squarespace's and Wix's of the world. 01:13:15.622 --> 01:13:18.272 Because we know, like, when a customer, when a person comes up to you and 01:13:18.272 --> 01:13:20.992 you're like, in the back of your head, you're like, no, no way you're 01:13:20.992 --> 01:13:22.262 going to be able to run WordPress. 01:13:22.572 --> 01:13:23.582 And I ain't teaching you. 01:13:24.432 --> 01:13:24.702 Right? 01:13:24.712 --> 01:13:27.212 So, go use this Wix and Squarespace thing. 01:13:27.442 --> 01:13:29.672 Because you don't want them mad at you either, to be like, 01:13:29.672 --> 01:13:30.552 you told me to use WordPress. 01:13:30.602 --> 01:13:31.542 I couldn't figure it out. 01:13:32.412 --> 01:13:34.032 It's yeah, because you need professional help. 01:13:34.512 --> 01:13:35.042 so. 01:13:35.767 --> 01:13:39.197 They should be thinking, oh yeah, com is getting better. 01:13:39.617 --> 01:13:43.947 And I hinted at this in my last article that I published yesterday on Sunday. 01:13:44.947 --> 01:13:50.207 The request for the traditional WordPress admin on WordPress. 01:13:50.207 --> 01:13:50.537 com. 01:13:50.537 --> 01:13:51.897 WP Admin, right? 01:13:51.917 --> 01:13:54.767 Just to have it look and operate just like a WordPress install. 01:13:55.577 --> 01:13:59.877 There was a beta request form that you could fill out and request access to that. 01:13:59.907 --> 01:14:04.077 And, and my theory is, yeah, because maybe hope, hopefully maybe more 01:14:04.077 --> 01:14:07.487 developers are starting to use wordpress. 01:14:07.487 --> 01:14:09.127 com and refer wordpress. 01:14:09.127 --> 01:14:09.657 com more. 01:14:09.857 --> 01:14:14.347 Now that you can install themes and plugins for 30 bucks a month, which 01:14:14.347 --> 01:14:19.427 is industry on par average managed web hosting 30 bucks a month to do that stuff. 01:14:19.927 --> 01:14:22.657 Whereas years ago, you were like not a couple of years ago. 01:14:22.657 --> 01:14:24.397 You're just like, ah, Wix and Squarespace. 01:14:24.767 --> 01:14:27.327 I would have loved to be able to tell people for the last decade 01:14:27.327 --> 01:14:30.137 that I've been referring to Wix and Squarespace to use wordpress. 01:14:30.137 --> 01:14:30.447 com. 01:14:31.337 --> 01:14:35.047 Now I can, because themes and plugins and guess what? 01:14:35.047 --> 01:14:40.297 You should also be excited for the data liberation project, for migrating 01:14:40.407 --> 01:14:44.587 inter WordPress from WordPress to WordPress, because yes, if, if 01:14:44.587 --> 01:14:46.027 more people are using wordpress. 01:14:46.027 --> 01:14:48.287 com and a customer comes to you and they're on wordpress. 01:14:48.287 --> 01:14:53.057 com and they're like, I want a custom site, you can be like, okay, If 01:14:53.057 --> 01:14:54.437 there is limitation on wordpress. 01:14:54.437 --> 01:14:59.467 com, you could pull that and go to your favorite web host with it because of 01:14:59.497 --> 01:15:05.757 whatever challenges you might be having with dot com and poured it right over 01:15:05.937 --> 01:15:09.407 and start building in your favorite, you know, environment slash host. 01:15:10.037 --> 01:15:10.706 so.