WEBVTT 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:07.590 Matt Abrahams: Conviction and creativity are critical for successful communication. 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:11.250 My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:11.250 --> 00:00:12.900 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:13.260 --> 00:00:16.470 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:17.189 --> 00:00:19.259 Today I'm excited to speak with Lerone Martin. 00:00:19.540 --> 00:00:22.770 Lerone is the Martin Luther King Jr. Centennial professor in religious 00:00:22.770 --> 00:00:25.830 studies and African American studies at Stanford University. 00:00:26.215 --> 00:00:29.575 He also serves as the director of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Research 00:00:29.575 --> 00:00:31.615 and Education Institute at Stanford. 00:00:32.005 --> 00:00:33.625 His second book will be out soon. 00:00:34.165 --> 00:00:35.225 Well, welcome Lerone. 00:00:35.245 --> 00:00:36.715 I am so excited to have you here. 00:00:36.715 --> 00:00:39.144 We've known each other for a while and we've been talking about doing this. 00:00:39.144 --> 00:00:39.955 Thanks for being here. 00:00:40.105 --> 00:00:40.915 Lerone Martin: Happy to be here. 00:00:41.095 --> 00:00:41.605 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:00:41.605 --> 00:00:42.295 Shall we get started? 00:00:42.535 --> 00:00:43.254 Lerone Martin: Let's get started. 00:00:43.695 --> 00:00:46.635 Matt Abrahams: Every one of our episodes of this show ends with me asking our 00:00:46.635 --> 00:00:50.775 guests the same question, who's a communicator that they admire and why? 00:00:50.955 --> 00:00:54.555 And above all else, the two most popular answers are Michelle Obama 00:00:54.855 --> 00:00:57.990 and Martin Luther King, Jr. I'm not sure of your knowledge of Michelle 00:00:57.990 --> 00:01:01.755 Obama, but I certainly know you're an expert in Martin Luther King, Jr. Why 00:01:01.755 --> 00:01:05.565 do you think so many people view him as a great speaker and communicator? 00:01:06.119 --> 00:01:09.630 Lerone Martin: I think one of the things that makes Martin so fascinating 00:01:09.690 --> 00:01:14.039 and so compelling as a speaker is his ability to paint a picture. 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:19.259 I think he was so good at taking you on a journey and painting a 00:01:19.259 --> 00:01:23.390 picture, and then getting people excited about what he was saying. 00:01:23.600 --> 00:01:29.090 And I think his ability to bring out emotion, to bring out excitement 00:01:29.090 --> 00:01:33.050 in his listeners, I think is one reason why people really 00:01:33.050 --> 00:01:34.610 gravitate to him as a preacher. 00:01:34.610 --> 00:01:38.720 And I also think his ability to use his voice almost like a musical 00:01:38.720 --> 00:01:42.950 instrument, that's the other reason that people are so moved by him. 00:01:43.220 --> 00:01:46.775 The musicality of his voice, his pacing, his tone. 00:01:47.465 --> 00:01:51.185 I'm teaching a class right now here on campus, and for some of 00:01:51.185 --> 00:01:54.755 the assignments, students actually have to listen to his speeches. 00:01:54.965 --> 00:01:59.015 Obviously I could assign them to read them, but I tell them they have to hear 00:01:59.015 --> 00:02:03.615 it and I want them to hear him, and I want them to hear how audiences responded. 00:02:04.205 --> 00:02:07.500 And students are still to this day, moved by his speeches. 00:02:07.500 --> 00:02:10.289 Even, you know, almost over 60 years later. 00:02:10.500 --> 00:02:13.650 Matt Abrahams: The imagery that he's able to create, the connection through 00:02:13.650 --> 00:02:19.290 that engagement and energy, and certainly the way he used his voice are all, when 00:02:19.290 --> 00:02:23.040 combined together, I think what make him so charismatic and so interesting. 00:02:23.040 --> 00:02:26.400 And these are skills we can all learn, not to try to sound like him, but these 00:02:26.400 --> 00:02:27.970 are the same levers that we can use. 00:02:28.855 --> 00:02:31.945 Speaking of public speaking in, in your new book, you look at Martin 00:02:31.945 --> 00:02:36.085 Luther King Jr's early years, is it true that he received poor grades 00:02:36.085 --> 00:02:37.555 in public speaking in Oratory? 00:02:38.035 --> 00:02:38.605 Lerone Martin: He did. 00:02:38.605 --> 00:02:42.415 I mean, they were passing grades, but they weren't a's, as you would expect. 00:02:42.775 --> 00:02:47.095 He participated in a speech contest as a high school student. 00:02:47.485 --> 00:02:52.765 He won the high school contest and then he went to the state competition and 00:02:52.765 --> 00:02:54.865 did not even place in that competition. 00:02:55.440 --> 00:02:59.700 When he got to college, he had to take a course called Composition and Reading 00:02:59.790 --> 00:03:05.310 with this legendary professor at Morehouse by the name of Gladstone Lewis Chandler. 00:03:05.640 --> 00:03:10.140 And he said that King had a great voice, but he really struggled, um, 00:03:10.140 --> 00:03:12.030 showed potential in that course. 00:03:12.030 --> 00:03:15.420 And so he got a C in that class as a public speaker. 00:03:15.780 --> 00:03:21.090 And then he went on to seminary and took a preaching class in which he got a B. So, 00:03:21.340 --> 00:03:26.140 I think what that tells us is that this is a skill that Martin developed over years. 00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:30.609 He had a great voice, his mother taught him to sing at a very young age, so we 00:03:30.609 --> 00:03:36.760 had the musicality, but in terms of the pacing, the organization, I think this 00:03:36.760 --> 00:03:38.410 is something he developed over time. 00:03:38.410 --> 00:03:42.340 And I think it speaks to us about how we can develop this skill over time. 00:03:42.839 --> 00:03:44.940 Matt Abrahams: I'm curious, was it mostly through repetition? 00:03:44.940 --> 00:03:48.780 Did he really invest time and effort in improving his communication? 00:03:48.780 --> 00:03:51.040 Did he look to others who he admired? 00:03:51.450 --> 00:03:53.399 Lerone Martin: There are stories of him practicing in the mirror. 00:03:53.640 --> 00:03:57.299 And then when he was off to seminary, his father would have him come home 00:03:57.299 --> 00:03:59.220 every summer and take over the pulpit. 00:03:59.425 --> 00:04:03.025 So, he had those hours of rehearsing and practicing in 00:04:03.025 --> 00:04:04.525 front of people at his church. 00:04:04.765 --> 00:04:06.325 And so he took it very seriously. 00:04:06.565 --> 00:04:10.195 And then he admired local preachers, not as much his father. 00:04:10.405 --> 00:04:13.915 He felt his father was a bit too fundamentalist and carried 00:04:13.915 --> 00:04:15.565 away too much with emotion. 00:04:15.715 --> 00:04:19.524 But he admired people like William Holmes Borders, who was a local minister at 00:04:19.524 --> 00:04:21.445 Wheat Street Baptist Church in Atlanta. 00:04:21.860 --> 00:04:25.310 And these individuals were really influential and shaped the way that 00:04:25.310 --> 00:04:27.350 he thought about public speaking. 00:04:27.350 --> 00:04:32.540 And he brought elements of their style, his own style, the musicality he was 00:04:32.540 --> 00:04:35.960 taught from his mother, and he brought all that together to produce the 00:04:35.960 --> 00:04:37.030 Martin Luther King Jr. that we know. 00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:39.780 Matt Abrahams: What I'm hearing and that I hope everybody is 00:04:39.780 --> 00:04:41.250 hearing that we can all get better. 00:04:41.250 --> 00:04:41.520 Absolutely. 00:04:41.520 --> 00:04:45.990 And even somebody that we admire and is noted for his oratory and speaking ability 00:04:46.230 --> 00:04:49.890 might not have started there, but it was through practice, having role models. 00:04:49.890 --> 00:04:52.500 You know, if you wanna be a good speaker, you gotta watch people speak, and 00:04:52.500 --> 00:04:54.090 speak yourself, and I appreciate that. 00:04:54.410 --> 00:04:58.340 Almost everybody is familiar with the eloquence of Martin Luther King Jr's. 00:04:58.340 --> 00:04:59.480 I Have a Dream speech. 00:04:59.510 --> 00:05:02.960 I actually find his Nobel Prize acceptance speech to be more 00:05:02.960 --> 00:05:04.730 rousing and better architected. 00:05:05.090 --> 00:05:07.910 Do you have a favorite speech, sermon or writing of his, and 00:05:07.910 --> 00:05:09.015 if so, what is it and why? 00:05:09.755 --> 00:05:10.685 Lerone Martin: It's a great question. 00:05:10.715 --> 00:05:13.715 It depends on what day you ask me about which speech i'll tell you, 00:05:13.775 --> 00:05:17.465 I've been a big fan of the speech he gave here at Stanford in 1967. 00:05:17.645 --> 00:05:19.594 It's a speech called The Other America. 00:05:19.775 --> 00:05:23.075 Our Stanford Library has put it on YouTube, you can watch it. 00:05:23.344 --> 00:05:28.474 What I love is that it's about 45 minutes and he doesn't stumble once. 00:05:28.965 --> 00:05:30.405 There's no manuscript. 00:05:30.465 --> 00:05:33.855 It's all coming from his heart and mind, and it's a speech about 00:05:33.855 --> 00:05:37.365 poverty in America, and it's also a speech about racism and war. 00:05:37.365 --> 00:05:42.885 And watching him hold this audience of over a thousand Stanford undergraduates 00:05:43.005 --> 00:05:47.325 in the palm of his hand as he's delivering this speech, I find extremely moving, 00:05:47.715 --> 00:05:51.375 and I try to watch it at least once a year because I find it just so moving. 00:05:51.665 --> 00:05:53.105 Matt Abrahams: I adore the speech as well. 00:05:53.105 --> 00:05:55.685 I think it's very well done and obviously having a connection to 00:05:55.685 --> 00:05:57.455 this institution makes it special. 00:05:57.785 --> 00:06:00.425 You mentioned in there that it wasn't a manuscript. 00:06:00.725 --> 00:06:03.185 Can you share with us a little bit of the history behind the 00:06:03.455 --> 00:06:05.255 famous I Have a Dream speech. 00:06:05.285 --> 00:06:08.765 Is it true that part of that, if not most of it was extemporaneous? 00:06:08.855 --> 00:06:09.365 Lerone Martin: Yes. 00:06:09.425 --> 00:06:13.595 The, I Have a Dream part of the speech towards the end and the repetition 00:06:13.595 --> 00:06:17.765 of that is something that he had not written down that he was going to do. 00:06:18.180 --> 00:06:22.290 However, to our point earlier about practice, he had used that 00:06:22.440 --> 00:06:27.600 refrain twice prior, once in Detroit and once in South Carolina. 00:06:27.960 --> 00:06:31.500 It was a part of his repertoire, but it was a part of the repertoire that 00:06:31.500 --> 00:06:32.825 he did not plan to use that day. 00:06:33.525 --> 00:06:37.515 And I like that idea in the sense that you can have a manuscript prepared, 00:06:37.575 --> 00:06:40.815 but it's always great, I think, as a public speaker to try your best, to be 00:06:40.815 --> 00:06:46.275 attuned to the moment, to be attuned to your audience and to be open to perhaps 00:06:46.275 --> 00:06:48.255 deviating a bit in a public address. 00:06:48.825 --> 00:06:51.614 Matt Abrahams: I do a lot of work on spontaneous speaking, speaking in the 00:06:51.614 --> 00:06:55.424 moment, and one of the fundamental points I try to make is that you 00:06:55.424 --> 00:06:57.224 have to prepare to be spontaneous. 00:06:57.614 --> 00:07:01.544 An athlete does a lot of drills to prepare for the moment that is spontaneous. 00:07:02.025 --> 00:07:05.025 And it sounds like in a similar way, the I Have a Dream speech 00:07:05.085 --> 00:07:06.075 had some of those elements. 00:07:06.075 --> 00:07:09.645 He had practiced some of this but hadn't intended, and for whatever 00:07:09.645 --> 00:07:13.075 reason in that moment, felt that was the appropriate thing to bring about. 00:07:13.135 --> 00:07:16.555 And I think there's a lesson for all of us in that as well, which is you 00:07:16.555 --> 00:07:20.005 can practice, you can think through things, and then allow yourself in the 00:07:20.005 --> 00:07:22.195 moment to read the room, read the space. 00:07:22.615 --> 00:07:27.505 What amazes me is that was a very big stage and a very important 00:07:27.505 --> 00:07:30.805 talk, and that he took that opportunity to be spontaneous. 00:07:30.805 --> 00:07:33.895 I think many of us would've stuck to the script that we had. 00:07:34.375 --> 00:07:38.565 Lerone Martin: But I like the way you said though, about practice, the repetition 00:07:38.565 --> 00:07:40.424 will allow you to be spontaneous. 00:07:40.455 --> 00:07:41.025 I like that. 00:07:41.025 --> 00:07:43.635 And using the metaphor of an athlete is so true. 00:07:43.695 --> 00:07:47.294 Thinking about Steph Curry and LeBron James and others, like they 00:07:47.294 --> 00:07:51.375 do what they do and sometimes it's impromptu, but that muscle memory 00:07:51.375 --> 00:07:52.784 right, enables them to do that. 00:07:52.815 --> 00:07:56.145 And I think approaching public speaking like that, I love that metaphor. 00:07:56.395 --> 00:07:59.515 Matt Abrahams: It's that practice and knowing that practice is preparing 00:07:59.515 --> 00:08:01.225 you for that is important as well. 00:08:01.225 --> 00:08:04.885 To know that in that moment I have those skills and I can rely on 00:08:04.885 --> 00:08:07.405 them is really important, there's a confidence that comes from that. 00:08:07.830 --> 00:08:11.910 As someone who's extensively studied Dr. King's writings and speeches, I'd love 00:08:11.910 --> 00:08:15.690 for you to share with us some of the techniques and devices that he would use. 00:08:15.690 --> 00:08:19.290 You've highlighted some already, but he was excellent at using 00:08:19.350 --> 00:08:22.585 lots of different oratorical and rhetorical devices to really engage. 00:08:23.260 --> 00:08:26.109 Can you share with us some of the ones that you note or pay attention to? 00:08:26.289 --> 00:08:27.039 Lerone Martin: Absolutely. 00:08:27.039 --> 00:08:30.190 And I love the way he said that 'cause he is kind of a jazz man in 00:08:30.190 --> 00:08:31.960 that he pulls from different styles. 00:08:31.990 --> 00:08:35.169 So I think one style that we, that you know first and foremost 00:08:35.169 --> 00:08:37.780 will be the experience of the African American Baptist Church. 00:08:38.405 --> 00:08:43.595 His ability to use narrative and story from the Bible to elucidate 00:08:43.655 --> 00:08:47.885 modern points, I think was something he learned from the pulpit. 00:08:48.095 --> 00:08:51.575 Bringing pathos, bringing emotion right to his speeches, that's 00:08:51.575 --> 00:08:54.815 something he learns from the pulpit in the Black Baptist tradition. 00:08:54.965 --> 00:08:59.135 And part of that is organizing a sermon around what some African American 00:08:59.135 --> 00:09:03.075 preachers have talked about, in particular Samuel Dewitt Proctor, who 00:09:03.075 --> 00:09:07.545 went to the same seminary as King before King, Crozier Theological Seminary. 00:09:07.665 --> 00:09:11.655 And he, in a book called The Sound of the Trumpet, talked about organizing 00:09:11.655 --> 00:09:14.475 sermons along the lines of an antithesis. 00:09:14.625 --> 00:09:18.705 The world is so bad, things aren't going well, and then a thesis, 00:09:18.885 --> 00:09:20.925 but God or the Bible says this. 00:09:21.415 --> 00:09:25.195 And then ending with a synthesis about, now how are we then to live? 00:09:25.255 --> 00:09:26.785 What are we now called to do? 00:09:26.935 --> 00:09:30.595 And I think that King's structure of his sermons often followed that. 00:09:30.655 --> 00:09:31.585 The world is bad. 00:09:31.585 --> 00:09:33.805 It may be racism or poverty or war. 00:09:34.075 --> 00:09:36.715 Here's what the Bible says, and now here's how we ought to live. 00:09:37.225 --> 00:09:40.675 So I think the structure of the African-American sermon, I think 00:09:40.975 --> 00:09:44.665 the emotion of it, I think is one aspect we can look to for King. 00:09:44.875 --> 00:09:47.665 And then the other is, I think what we talked about earlier, is 00:09:47.665 --> 00:09:49.975 just the pacing and the musicality. 00:09:50.265 --> 00:09:55.380 He is so good at emphasizing certain words, slowing down, 00:09:55.830 --> 00:09:58.200 elongating certain phrases. 00:09:58.230 --> 00:10:03.330 So I think the musicality, the tonality, I think that's another mechanism 00:10:03.330 --> 00:10:05.040 or device that he used so well. 00:10:05.460 --> 00:10:08.430 And finally, I think, you know, of course, it's the content. 00:10:08.730 --> 00:10:13.380 I love the way that he not only uses biblical stories, but King 00:10:13.380 --> 00:10:17.550 will also use examples from everyday life to really elucidate his points. 00:10:18.225 --> 00:10:22.505 And I think in providing a story, you bring your audience with you on a journey. 00:10:22.885 --> 00:10:24.725 And you are taking them somewhere. 00:10:25.140 --> 00:10:29.490 And I love the way that he does that, both using the Bible, but everyday experiences. 00:10:29.550 --> 00:10:34.360 He will use examples of his own personal life to elucidate a 00:10:34.380 --> 00:10:38.010 broader point, to connect people around their shared humanity. 00:10:38.160 --> 00:10:40.890 And I think those sort of techniques, right? 00:10:40.890 --> 00:10:44.460 It's the musicality, it's the structure of the African American sermon, the 00:10:44.460 --> 00:10:48.900 emotion of the sermon and the ability to use narrative and storytelling I 00:10:48.900 --> 00:10:53.270 think are some of the devices he used and just made him the man that we know. 00:10:54.375 --> 00:10:56.805 Matt Abrahams: We don't have to necessarily refer to the Bible, just 00:10:56.805 --> 00:11:00.975 making any reference to some commonly understood experience or story can help. 00:11:01.095 --> 00:11:06.045 And he uses even more specific techniques that I'd love to get your opinion on. 00:11:06.045 --> 00:11:09.435 He uses a lot of alliteration where there's a rhyme in what he says. 00:11:09.645 --> 00:11:12.675 There's a technique called anaphora, which is the repetition. 00:11:12.675 --> 00:11:15.704 The I have A Dream is repeated, in his Nobel Prize speech 00:11:15.704 --> 00:11:17.295 he repeats the same phrases. 00:11:17.295 --> 00:11:22.255 And there's a sense of momentum, a sense of passion that comes in that repetition. 00:11:22.465 --> 00:11:25.945 The use of analogies is so powerful in a lot of his work. 00:11:26.245 --> 00:11:30.535 When you really dissect it, it's fascinating to see how many different 00:11:30.535 --> 00:11:32.215 techniques he weaves together. 00:11:32.485 --> 00:11:35.035 And I think for many of us, we can say that was Martin Luther 00:11:35.035 --> 00:11:36.625 King Jr. He was an expert at it. 00:11:36.625 --> 00:11:39.885 But we can all put some of this into our communication. 00:11:40.395 --> 00:11:43.454 Do you find, trying to put some of this stuff in your work, tell me a 00:11:43.454 --> 00:11:44.685 little bit about how you do that. 00:11:44.685 --> 00:11:46.935 I'd love to learn 'cause I'd like to put even more in what I do. 00:11:47.025 --> 00:11:50.714 Lerone Martin: Well, what you just said about repetition is what I try to do in my 00:11:50.714 --> 00:11:54.855 public speaking and some of my lectures, because you do get a sense of momentum. 00:11:55.035 --> 00:11:59.969 He uses it in a speech, his last actually speech on April 3rd. 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:04.260 I mean, everyone knows the mountaintop part, but before that, he goes on this 00:12:04.260 --> 00:12:08.699 long discourse about if I had sneezed and he's telling a story about that 00:12:08.699 --> 00:12:10.739 he had been stabbed in the 1950s. 00:12:11.010 --> 00:12:14.270 It was stabbed by a letter opener by a a mentally ill woman. 00:12:14.459 --> 00:12:17.719 And the doctors had told him it just missed his aorta, and if he had 00:12:17.719 --> 00:12:20.060 sneezed, then he would've not survived. 00:12:20.390 --> 00:12:23.990 And so he uses that and says, if I had sneezed, I wouldn't have been 00:12:23.990 --> 00:12:27.050 here in 1961 when this happened. 00:12:27.199 --> 00:12:30.109 If I had sneezed, I wouldn't have been here in 1962. 00:12:30.290 --> 00:12:33.890 And it brings it all the way back up to 68 with this momentum that 00:12:33.890 --> 00:12:35.449 then say, and now here we are. 00:12:36.090 --> 00:12:40.710 And now we're going to move forward and continue the progress in American society. 00:12:41.069 --> 00:12:44.430 I love the use of repetition in that regard because it does 00:12:44.819 --> 00:12:45.990 bring your audience with you. 00:12:45.990 --> 00:12:48.780 It's almost like you're on a rollercoaster and you're going tick, 00:12:48.780 --> 00:12:51.569 tick, tick up to the top, and then you're about ready to take off. 00:12:51.870 --> 00:12:53.130 So I like to use that. 00:12:53.130 --> 00:12:57.365 And as well as everyday experiences of shared humanity that I try 00:12:57.365 --> 00:12:58.565 to use for my students, right? 00:12:58.565 --> 00:13:02.555 So I know that all of them are probably not sleeping well or all of them are 00:13:02.555 --> 00:13:06.005 probably eating certain types of foods or they're stressing out 'cause we're 00:13:06.005 --> 00:13:07.115 getting to the end of the quarter. 00:13:07.475 --> 00:13:12.305 I try to use those experiences to relate to the course material, to understand 00:13:12.305 --> 00:13:15.035 that this is a shared experience, that all of us are going through this 00:13:15.035 --> 00:13:17.525 together and there's a way forward. 00:13:17.610 --> 00:13:21.720 So I think that I tried to use some of the stuff that King used as well 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:23.340 in my lectures and my public speaking. 00:13:23.460 --> 00:13:26.010 Matt Abrahams: And I know from what the students say, it's very well received. 00:13:26.310 --> 00:13:28.830 I wanna highlight on this notion of momentum. 00:13:28.830 --> 00:13:33.030 The feeling and experience of movement that happens in really 00:13:33.030 --> 00:13:34.770 potent, powerful speeches. 00:13:34.980 --> 00:13:36.600 And I think he was a master of that. 00:13:36.600 --> 00:13:40.950 And I think all of us can tap into, it's not just talking about movement, but 00:13:40.950 --> 00:13:42.990 it's actually giving us an experience. 00:13:43.335 --> 00:13:45.855 Saying words more quickly, more slowly repeating. 00:13:45.855 --> 00:13:48.225 These are all tools that give that, and that's really, really helpful. 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:51.930 Something else that's really powerful about Martin Luther King Jr's 00:13:51.930 --> 00:13:56.250 communication is that he was rooted in a clear purpose to achieve justice. 00:13:56.550 --> 00:14:00.510 I'd like you to step out of your role as a, as an academic teacher, how can 00:14:00.569 --> 00:14:04.890 contemporary leaders and managers ensure their messages are anchored in something 00:14:04.890 --> 00:14:10.319 that's genuine, a purpose, rather than appearing as just performative statements? 00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:12.270 Lerone Martin: Yeah, I think conviction. 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:18.345 I think you've just, you've really got to be completely convinced of 00:14:18.345 --> 00:14:21.495 the cause that you're speaking about or the issue you're addressing. 00:14:21.555 --> 00:14:24.915 'Cause I think in today's world, people can spot when people are 00:14:24.915 --> 00:14:28.695 fraudulent or when people are just, as you said, just performing. 00:14:29.085 --> 00:14:32.745 I think that you've gotta be completely convinced and completely convicted 00:14:32.745 --> 00:14:36.165 of what you're saying, because if you're not convinced it's gonna be 00:14:36.165 --> 00:14:37.635 difficult for you to convince others. 00:14:37.875 --> 00:14:41.880 And I think King was completely convinced about at least where 00:14:41.880 --> 00:14:45.090 he thought America could get to or where he wanted America to go. 00:14:45.420 --> 00:14:48.480 He wasn't always sure about what was the best method to get there, 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:49.890 other than of course non-violence. 00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:53.550 But he was always convinced that what he was doing was right. 00:14:53.640 --> 00:14:55.950 And I think that's a lesson for all of us. 00:14:55.950 --> 00:15:00.150 I think we have to ourselves be convinced and convicted of what we're talking 00:15:00.210 --> 00:15:02.160 about before we can convince others. 00:15:02.310 --> 00:15:03.900 And I think that King shows us that. 00:15:04.375 --> 00:15:06.594 Matt Abrahams: That notion of conviction is really powerful. 00:15:06.594 --> 00:15:09.985 It takes reflection To get there, you have to think about what's important 00:15:09.985 --> 00:15:13.885 to me, and then the next step is, how do I manifest that in my own 00:15:13.885 --> 00:15:16.074 actions so that I'm seen as authentic. 00:15:16.285 --> 00:15:18.954 It's very easy as a leader to talk about values. 00:15:18.954 --> 00:15:22.344 It's a little more challenging to live them, to to show them. 00:15:22.730 --> 00:15:25.790 I always talk with my students about credibility comes not 00:15:25.790 --> 00:15:27.079 just from telling, but showing. 00:15:27.230 --> 00:15:30.860 And so finding ways to show through the stories you tell, through the actions, 00:15:30.860 --> 00:15:32.930 through who you highlight and uplift. 00:15:33.140 --> 00:15:36.140 So I really appreciate that notion of conviction and I challenge everybody 00:15:36.140 --> 00:15:39.740 listening regardless of your role to really think about what has you convicted, 00:15:39.740 --> 00:15:40.980 what is it that's important to you? 00:15:42.599 --> 00:15:43.739 This has been fantastic. 00:15:43.920 --> 00:15:46.140 Before we end, I'd like to ask everybody three questions. 00:15:46.140 --> 00:15:49.410 One, I make up just for you, and two are similar to everyone I've interviewed. 00:15:49.770 --> 00:15:54.089 I'm curious if you had this moment to share with younger people 00:15:54.359 --> 00:15:56.400 the importance of communication. 00:15:56.489 --> 00:15:58.140 Share with me why it's so important. 00:15:58.140 --> 00:16:01.260 I mean, you and I prior to the interview, we're talking about AI and how AI 00:16:01.260 --> 00:16:04.589 is being used, and certainly it's a wonderful tool to help with communication. 00:16:04.645 --> 00:16:07.845 But, from your perspective, somebody who studied one of the greats and 00:16:07.845 --> 00:16:11.355 many of the greats in communication, why is it so important for a young 00:16:11.355 --> 00:16:14.444 person to learn how to communicate authentically with conviction? 00:16:14.820 --> 00:16:19.380 Lerone Martin: Well, I think the first thing would be to inspire others. 00:16:19.500 --> 00:16:22.140 If we're thinking about Martin Luther King Jr. one of the things 00:16:22.140 --> 00:16:25.440 that he always said was, life's most persistent and urgent question 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:26.670 is, what are you doing for others? 00:16:26.880 --> 00:16:31.515 And I think what he shows us is how communication can inspire others to dream. 00:16:31.875 --> 00:16:33.405 Good communication, I should say. 00:16:33.495 --> 00:16:35.655 So I think that's one thing I would tell a young adult. 00:16:35.745 --> 00:16:40.035 How do you wanna inspire others and move others and help to 00:16:40.035 --> 00:16:41.385 have an impact on the world? 00:16:41.564 --> 00:16:43.125 Great communicators can do that. 00:16:43.305 --> 00:16:46.275 Even if you have great ideas, if you don't know how to communicate 00:16:46.275 --> 00:16:50.115 them in an effective manner, the greatness of your ideas or the 00:16:50.115 --> 00:16:52.035 genius of your ideas can get lost. 00:16:52.125 --> 00:16:55.095 So I would say to a young person, if you really want to have an impact 00:16:55.095 --> 00:16:58.905 on your community, you want to inspire others, learn how to be a 00:16:58.905 --> 00:17:02.625 great communicator, and I think that you'll find you'll have an impact on 00:17:02.625 --> 00:17:04.305 your community and those around you. 00:17:04.815 --> 00:17:08.714 Matt Abrahams: Inspiration is so important and tools can't necessarily 00:17:08.714 --> 00:17:12.165 give you that, and it's not just for young people, I think all of us benefit 00:17:12.165 --> 00:17:15.075 when we think about how we inspire others through our communication. 00:17:15.075 --> 00:17:16.065 I really appreciate it. 00:17:16.395 --> 00:17:18.285 So I'm gonna modify my second question for you. 00:17:18.315 --> 00:17:20.625 I always ask people, who's a communicator you admire and why? 00:17:20.625 --> 00:17:23.685 But I'm gonna remove one from the table for you, beyond Martin Luther 00:17:23.685 --> 00:17:27.015 King Jr., who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:17:27.469 --> 00:17:29.399 Lerone Martin: You know, I have to go with who you started with. 00:17:29.399 --> 00:17:33.479 I'll join the crowd and say that I've always been impressed with Michelle Obama. 00:17:33.750 --> 00:17:34.800 She's a great storyteller. 00:17:35.219 --> 00:17:39.000 And she can take you along on a journey, she'll make a point, and then 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:44.399 she'll tell an amazing story that's heartfelt, that puts you in the moment. 00:17:44.699 --> 00:17:48.629 And she finds these common human experiences and say, we all know what it's 00:17:48.629 --> 00:17:52.770 like to come home from work and then be stressed about, okay, what's for dinner? 00:17:52.770 --> 00:17:53.610 Are the kids okay? 00:17:53.614 --> 00:17:53.745 Right. 00:17:54.360 --> 00:17:55.620 That takes you there. 00:17:55.740 --> 00:18:01.080 And then her conviction, she's always able to convey her lectures 00:18:01.080 --> 00:18:02.610 and her speeches with feeling. 00:18:02.610 --> 00:18:04.740 You always get the sense that this is real. 00:18:04.860 --> 00:18:06.330 So I'm a big fan of hers. 00:18:06.750 --> 00:18:08.250 I'm also a big fan of Barack. 00:18:08.250 --> 00:18:13.260 I think Barack does a great job of reminding us, or at least 00:18:13.260 --> 00:18:16.659 attempting to remind America of our values and who we are. 00:18:16.850 --> 00:18:18.645 And calling us to something greater. 00:18:18.855 --> 00:18:23.655 I love that when Barack speaks, he's so good at painting the American story. 00:18:23.774 --> 00:18:25.875 He embodies it, as we talked about earlier, right? 00:18:25.875 --> 00:18:27.855 I mean, his own story about his family. 00:18:28.245 --> 00:18:31.270 And I love the way that he calls us into something greater. 00:18:32.040 --> 00:18:34.710 I've heard him on podcasts, I've heard him give public 00:18:34.710 --> 00:18:36.600 lectures and I think he's good. 00:18:36.600 --> 00:18:39.780 So I, I guess you could say I'm a fan of the Obama family when 00:18:39.780 --> 00:18:41.100 it comes to public speaking. 00:18:41.100 --> 00:18:43.770 I think they're very good and they're both very gifted in their own way. 00:18:44.100 --> 00:18:47.370 Matt Abrahams: Michelle Obama's ability to tell a story in much the same way 00:18:47.370 --> 00:18:50.400 that Martin Luther King Jr. Could tell a story, they tell stories differently, 00:18:50.460 --> 00:18:52.080 but use them for the same purpose. 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:56.730 To really connect, to demonstrate, to humanize, and that's a very powerful tool. 00:18:56.790 --> 00:18:57.660 Thank you for sharing that. 00:18:57.965 --> 00:18:58.685 Final question. 00:18:58.804 --> 00:19:03.365 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:19:03.754 --> 00:19:05.524 Lerone Martin: First three ingredients. 00:19:05.824 --> 00:19:06.814 Oh, wow. 00:19:06.905 --> 00:19:07.205 I like that. 00:19:07.995 --> 00:19:09.495 I wanna start with conviction. 00:19:09.764 --> 00:19:14.264 I think you gotta do, reflect and be convinced of your message. 00:19:14.355 --> 00:19:17.355 And then I think, of course, it's the structure, it's the format, it's 00:19:17.355 --> 00:19:19.095 this, you said the GPS, the mapping. 00:19:19.425 --> 00:19:22.995 If you're convinced to know where you want to go, now you have to then 00:19:22.995 --> 00:19:24.254 plan how you're gonna get there. 00:19:24.435 --> 00:19:25.450 And then I would say pacing. 00:19:26.010 --> 00:19:27.720 What pace do you wanna travel? 00:19:27.870 --> 00:19:29.760 Fast, slow, or moderate it? 00:19:29.760 --> 00:19:30.000 Right? 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:31.650 Do you know where is there gonna be rest stops? 00:19:31.650 --> 00:19:34.230 There gonna be places where you're gonna park and linger a little longer. 00:19:34.379 --> 00:19:36.570 So I think those would be the three for me. 00:19:36.570 --> 00:19:39.720 I think it'd be conviction, and I think it'd be structure or mapping, 00:19:39.900 --> 00:19:41.190 and then I think I'd say pacing. 00:19:41.595 --> 00:19:43.065 Matt Abrahams: I love the way you wrapped up that answer. 00:19:43.065 --> 00:19:45.225 A true teacher will summarize in the end. 00:19:45.225 --> 00:19:46.905 Uh, you make my job really easy. 00:19:47.115 --> 00:19:49.395 Conviction is all about your focus, your North Star. 00:19:49.515 --> 00:19:52.125 Structure is about how do I package it in a way that's 00:19:52.125 --> 00:19:53.775 meaningful with high fidelity? 00:19:53.865 --> 00:19:56.745 And then pacing is you can have a great message, but one delivered 00:19:56.745 --> 00:19:58.905 poorly isn't gonna be as effective. 00:19:59.295 --> 00:20:00.255 Thank you so much. 00:20:00.255 --> 00:20:03.795 Thank you not only for sharing your thoughts, but for also helping us 00:20:03.795 --> 00:20:07.629 dissect and better understand the importance of communication in general, 00:20:07.629 --> 00:20:11.379 but specifically around how Martin Luther King Jr. was so effective. 00:20:11.590 --> 00:20:13.629 I appreciate your time and thanks for being with us. 00:20:13.750 --> 00:20:14.920 Lerone Martin: It was an honor and a privilege. 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:15.639 Thank you for having me. 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:19.810 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:20:19.810 --> 00:20:22.060 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:20:22.420 --> 00:20:25.000 To learn more about how to deliver compelling communication 00:20:25.120 --> 00:20:27.080 listen to episode 192. 00:20:27.580 --> 00:20:32.620 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:36.525 Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with thanks to Podium Podcast company. 00:20:37.005 --> 00:20:40.275 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:20:40.455 --> 00:20:42.465 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:20:42.825 --> 00:20:47.385 Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram and check out faster smarter.io for 00:20:47.385 --> 00:20:51.165 deep dive videos, English language Learning content, and our newsletter. 00:20:51.345 --> 00:20:54.105 Please consider our Think Fast Talk Smartt Learning Community, where 00:20:54.105 --> 00:20:57.255 you can join a global community of people interested in honing and 00:20:57.255 --> 00:20:59.205 developing their communication skills. 00:20:59.535 --> 00:21:03.524 You get access to asynchronous lessons, an AI coach, quest 00:21:03.524 --> 00:21:04.875 and challenges and much more. 00:21:05.264 --> 00:21:08.475 Join at faster smarter.io/learning.