Evan: I have a history of sex and lust addiction, and I've been a part of SA, the whole side program, for quite a while. So when Kelsey and I met in early twenty twenty three, I was going to meetings. I was assembling some sense of recovery, and a lot of what we bonded about that time was our mutual priority for healing in our lives, in our hearts, in our pasts. As the relationship progressed and the engagement then progressed, I became complacent and stopped going to meetings. And so now from working with you guys, what I've identified is there was a massive amount of denial structures that were in place and at and at work in our lives.
Brandon: We wanna welcome you guys back to the Grounded Union podcast. On season three, we are talking with call-ins, live call-ins. So right now, we are actually talking with Kelsey and Evan on a Zoom call, and they are gonna be sharing their story with us, and we're gonna be going back and forth with them. That's all of what season three is about. So if you haven't already listened to the last episodes, go ahead and listen to those, and hopefully, you can glean some encouragement from our conversation with Kelsey and Evan.
So, guys, welcome. Thank you so much for for hopping on with us. What is front and center for you two right now? We just talked off air that you guys have been married for a year. Why is it crucial that you guys work on your relationship, right away?
What's going on?
Evan: I guess I can start and jump in. So I have a history of, sex and lust addiction, and I've been a part of SA, 12-step program, for quite a while. So when Kelsey and I met in, early 2023, I was going to meetings, I was kind of assembling some sense of recovery. And a lot of what we bonded about at that time was our mutual priority for healing in our lives, in our hearts, in our pasts. And, that's really a thing that we bonded over.
And to be frank, just from my end, as the relationship progressed and the engagement then progressed, I became complacent and stopped going to meetings. And I was not really in touch with my SA fellowship and not really doing any step work or anything like that. And so now from working with you guys, what I've identified is there was a massive amount of denial structures that were in place and at work in our lives. And so we were married in October 2024, just December 2024. So about a year ago, I just had some realizations about the nature and reality of my behavior and things were coming to light from my subconscious that I was really frankly gaslighting myself about.
Weeks before the wedding, I was finding unconventional ways to masturbate, looking at naked, pictures or videos on Instagram and gaslighting myself into thinking that that was not an issue because I had this chronic history of acting out, watching lots of porn, hooking up with lots of women. And so in my brain, I thought, this is fine. It's not a big deal. I'm just gonna kind of wash my hands. We're Catholic, so I'd go to confession right away, kind of rinse clean of it and then kind of forgive and forget and just let it go.
In December, I just kind of started to have a full confession. So I was like, Here, Kelsey, here's all the things that I've been hiding. And that was a big rupture. And at the time, we hadn't found your guys' material, and for me, it was a commitment to the program. I So like, I'm gonna go to meetings every week and not miss.
I'm gonna, like, get a sponsor. I'm gonna start working the steps. And so I kind of started this journey, but there was a lot of things lacking because frankly, I feel like I was not getting to the root of this problem with the program. I'm full circle, probably about spring, March, April, May time. Kelsey found you guys on Instagram and would send me videos and I was just not processing what it was.
I was like, oh, cool. Whatever. Like, we didn't dive in till season one of your podcast in June on a trip. We were both in California for a work trip of mine, but we both kind of went together when she was pregnant. On the drive back, we put on episode one, season one, and that really started to just kind of be the seed that planted it.
And then I was like, well, now that now we're talking about it, you know, there was a girl at the airport that I felt this thing, right? And then it was became basically from June till now, every month as we've consumed your guys' content has been slowly dissecting every denial structure. It was, oh, like, I feel like I noticed that person. It reminded me of how I used to look at women. And then it was, oh, I felt my body kind of, like, lean towards looking at that woman, but I didn't lust.
Like, it was all things except the actual sin itself. It was, like, the action of the thing, and then it wasn't the actual thing. And then it became, okay, as I released this denial structures, I just was able to admit over time by consuming your content and say, I'm objectifying these women, and it's happening all the time. So I guess now where we're at is something that we are struggling with is there are times that I've evictified Kelsey herself. And this has happened within our sex life.
This has happened throughout our dating engagement. And even recently, like I've made comments about her postpartum body because I wanted to be upfront about what I was feeling and what was arising in my heart. It's been a great challenge recently, just because I've had that's been the most difficult thing. In the past two or three months, I felt like we've been doing a lot of four Rs together about women in the world, women I see at the gym, women I see at the store. But I was that last denial structure is the last thing that I felt like we finally are starting to attack in the most recent weeks is the reality of what the framework that I built up in the past is such that Kelsey is not the exception.
And I was really wanting to feel like that was the case. But the way that I've built my brain over the years is just to pick apart people's bodies and make judgment calls based off how attractive they are and the things that I feel like I gained gratification from. And I feel like that's been happening a lot recently of just like that's been coming up. We've been trying to process that, and we're sitting in this new season of deep pain.
Kelsey: That was that was really good. I think that's definitely kind of what we're trying to work through. That's been the hardest is I feel like as you started taking more responsibility and ownership, like, of this happening towards other women Mhmm. In my head, I was like, okay. This really sucks, but maybe, you know, I can handle this.
Because you guys, I think I've talked about before, like, betrayed spouse will go to great lengths as long as the spouse that is, you know, doing these acts is, like, really putting in the effort. But I feel like I really hit my breaking point happening towards me and then there's still, like, maybe, like, a day or two of, like, consistency and you'll step into your power and then there's slides back to this, like, lying and hiding. And I will sometimes I used to try to prompt him and be like, how did the day go? Is there anything you wanna share? And he was like, nope, it went great.
And then it was like, a week or two would go by and he was like, yeah, actually that event, you know, I was looking at this woman's butt or I did see her boobs or I was looking at that or I was attracted to her. That was really hard. And even so I was like, okay, we can work through this. And now it's starting to happen towards me of like, oh, I think your butt's flabby or, know, oh, when you bend over, you have a fold in your stomach. I don't know that I'm attracted to that.
And I'm like, I mean, I'm postpartum, but I'm also like, it was a really hard pregnancy. I had hyperemesis. So I feel like every bite of food, every sip of water or drink was like a fight for my life and our baby's life. And making it through to postpartum felt like the greatest achievement of my life. And I feel like I have so much honor and respect for my body, especially after all of that.
So it whenever he tells me this stuff, it doesn't necessarily affect the way that I see myself. It just affects the way that I see myself in the relationship. And it makes it really hard to heal and feel safe and feel like I can walk around or be in my pajamas or anything for that matter and feel safe around him, I think.
Brandon: Well, Evan and Chelsea, thank you for both sharing that. Kelsey. Kelsey. Sorry. Evan, one thing I wanted to affirm was, as I hear you talking, I don't hear a weak man talking about his story.
So you've done a lot of work to already kind of peel back the layers of shame and be like, what is my like, you don't seem super surprised by what you've been walking through. You've you've spent some time in it and that be that's very evident. Kelsey, I also like that you're, I can tell, we can tell by body language that you're obviously like, you guys love each other. Kelsey, you want Evan to find freedom, deeper freedom. You guys want to create the safety and it's also evident that you still have your standard for and hope for what that feels like, and and you'll kinda you'll know what that freedom really, really feels like.
So you're definitely in the right trajectory. One of the things I wanted to hone in on in the realm of if if Evan is taking responsibility, which it sounds like there's times where you kind of go in and out, because let's be honest, this, this process of kind of identifying the way that the mind was trained to perceive women or men in our environment, it's pretty shocking. Like when you, when you like start opening up the subconscious, it's kinda like, woah. Like, how did I live life this way? And I think a really helpful, like, tipping point that will help it continue to be a connecting experience, like, for you, Evan, and feeling empowered and a desire to bring things to Kelsey would be knowing that you've already drawn a lie in the sand.
Like, we're not you're not going back to porn. You're not going back to Instagram porn. You're not it doesn't sound like you were wanting to to build a moat in that that realm anymore. So now it's not like the struggle of, like, am I gonna relapse? It seems like how, how long has it been since like active use of digital porn or any of that?
How what's what's how long has that been?
Evan: Probably right around before, like, so right before the wedding. Okay. The last time. So that's probably been like a year and a quarter, but then like, as we dissect that analysis structure, it's like, even like we did the big Instagram purge and I went through all the different followers of I've identified this girl, this girl, this girl, right. And we've unfollowed and all that.
Like, besides those types of instances where it's like, okay, I'll flip flip up on Facebook. Haven't had Facebook on for months. We're trying to find a new car. Now there's like stories coming up and then we have to do four hours on that kind of stuff. But besides like the people or the, those types of things, nothing like no nudity, no, you know, you're making models for a little over
Brandon: a year. And I say awesome, not like to give you like a gold star, like good. You made it a year more of like that affirms what I'm saying in the sense of like, I think some people, when they start looking at all of the history, it's like, oh my gosh, like there's the sting of like Kelsey finding out, like, all the things you've started doing. It sounds like you guys have gotten over that hump of, like, she's seen pretty in-depth of what the behavior was. So I like looking at it when you're using the the four r's of recognizing for anybody listening unfamiliar with that, we've talked, I think we talked about it in season one or two.
It's the process of rewiring the mind, which I want to break that down for a minute. The reticular activating system. I'm not a neuroscientist, but basically the part of our brain that picks up the data that's important to us, the RAS it's like the, the purple Jeep thing or the pink Jeep. Like if I say pink Jeep, then your brain will tell you you're looking for Jeeps or if you guys are shopping for a certain car, you'll start seeing it everywhere. What happened through our adolescence and early childhood for a lot of men in middle school, like when the first Playboy came out or when when when your friends started showing you naked pictures and you started just looking at women and training the brain of like, look at her butt, look at her breasts, and then maybe look at her face and make a judgment.
Like, that's just like what what we trained the Raz to do was to pick up this sensory information. It's responsible for what we smell, hear, taste, touch, see. It's it's just it's just telling us the data that's coming in. So one of the things that happened for us was there were certain things that I begin I shared in that season that were definitely uncomfortable, but most things were not shocking anymore. It was just when Caitlyn saw me really leaning in to saying, you know what?
I just wanna see what else is there. Like, absolutely everything because I just wanna clear out my reticular activating system so that nothing else is, there's no debris left. And I honestly, I didn't believe, I didn't even believe it was going to work. I literally just did it cause I was kind of tired of us having a nightly conversation and this stuff going on in my mind. I didn't even really think it was going to work, But there was this shift that happened where I didn't feel like I was concerned about what was gonna be found.
It was more of like, I know there's a bunch of debris. I'm gonna clear it out until it's gone. And it took me like five months of like kicking and screaming and like hiding. Like, don't wanna do this. I'll I'll do this.
Cailin's like, did you have any thoughts or any memories? No. What we've encouraged couples to do is basically make a commitment that they are going to have a nightly conversation. Sounds like you guys have had a lot of conversations, but almost just saying, like, what else is there? And and it sounds like you're doing that.
Mhmm. What I want you to get to the point now is where it's not, like shame inducing or like where you're like judging it, but really going into like, oh, it's just I'm just gonna continue to clear this. Like, this is how it was trained. I'm retraining and I'm replacing it with this new thing. And you could even, you know, even with the very sensitive element of you talking with Kelsey and like being like, hey, you know what?
My mind is is making a judgment about your body. And Kelsey can feel her pain from how that lands for her. And you and your conscious mind, you're you're not really making that judgment. Like you trained your mind to do it. So almost like you take responsibility and you don't I wouldn't beat yourself up and wallow in shame for a long time to be like, I can't believe I had this thought of my wife's stomach not being flattering postpartum.
Take it. So you know what? I'm gonna I'm gonna replace that pathway. That's actually not how I would see my wife's body, like and I would just replace it. Like, that's the the stomach that stretched and grew with my child and that she fought for.
And just I would just kinda continue to take the empowered stance of being a man that has done the work that is healing. It sounds like you're going in the right right Yeah.
Caitlyn: I would say you're actually the first couple we've talked to that's like, listen to what we're saying and is doing it. Like, honestly, well, I mean, there's a lot of couples that are. I'm just being the first one we've been able to interact with in this close of proximity. And I think that's really inspiring. I actually wrote down same thing as Brandon.
I love your language because a lot of men when we're talking to them, it's like they understand that they've got their stuff that they're working on. And even, you know, the podcast episode, we helped we helped the man discover, like, the way he was describing the events he chose to engage in, he was describing them as if he had no choice to be texting with his ex girlfriend. You know, like, the languaging of that, where you hop on and you're like, this is what I've done. This is it. Like the essentially the tool that we teach is magnify it.
Instead of trying to be like, oh, it's not that big of a deal. You're just on here. You're like, I looked at nude women. I did this this this. It's like, I'm here to call it for what it is.
And I think when I see that, as even Kelsey's saying, when I see that, I'm like, well, you're going in the right direction. Like, the end for you guys is so so good. Because when the one who's caused the betrayal and the brokenness is willing to take that much radical responsibility, the only way you can head is towards freedom. The second thing I wanted to note too confirms our belief system is that you essentially decided to become aware of the fact that there's a lot more underneath the tip of the iceberg. You know, like you knew you're looking at porn, you're looking at nude women, you're masturbating.
That's the the iceberg part that we can see, right? You chose to believe the truth that there's a lot more underneath that once you get into the denial structures that you could see. And then with that, your addiction's breaking off. Right? Like, you're not struggling to look at pornography anymore.
Now, you're just wanting to actually rewire what you've wired in so that you can live in your day to day without objectifying women, without having judgmental thoughts about your wife, you know, all of those those other categories. You're in kind of the secondary phase is what I would almost see it as is like, you cut all power source to the main addiction. Now you're rewiring essentially, this is what got you to the place of addiction. This all probably started in childhood, you know, the way that you view and see women. So this is almost like we're going back to childhood and going, okay, I'm gonna rewire how I think and see and engage with the world.
Right? And so I think those are the first two things Something to add. Yeah. Add
Brandon: that. I just wanted to add in that secondary phase, one of the things that I was not prepared for that was pretty unexpected was I had cut off the addiction. I had gotten off all social media. There was like, no like, I wasn't trying to find my way back in. I'd been doing that for years.
Like, oh, I'll I'll look at raunchy videos on YouTube by going in through some backlinks in the Bible app. Like, I could figure out any way to get to to seeing something. Mhmm. So that had stopped, and we're doing the work. And as I'm clearing out my subconscious, when we were doing emotional exercises together, when Caitlyn would go to share something like affection towards me, I was seeing these images of naked women in my mind.
Or if we were going to go be intimate, it was like these drop ins of these things I had seen in the past, all this debris. That's why I like calling it debris because it's just like and I couldn't quite figure out. I'm like, why is this happening now? I I, we took like the spiritual, I'm like, is the devil attacking me for trying to take us? I'm like, no, he's like, he's gone.
Like, he's not, I don't feel his, I'm like in this intergalactic struggle, but what was going on was really leaning into the emotion. So I would encourage the the feeling that you're feeling when certain things come up. So for example, in that moment Mhmm. I was seeing the breasts of other women, and I was like, what is going on? Like, why am I seeing other women when I'm in this intimate moment with my wife?
And what I realized was anytime I was feeling, I was feeling the emotion of affection, which I had never felt like in our relationship. I never I had never, like, allowed myself to feel that. And I was allowing myself to feel again. I was like, oh, affection. I I sought out affection and affirmation when I was sad and lonely by just looking for acute smiling face on the internet.
Now I'm in the present moment, I'm in my body. My wife is smiling at me and expressing affection and my mind saying, you want us to pull up these images. Right? And I'm like, no, like that's not it. So we'd pause, go through the four hours and clear all that out.
And that did stop after a few weeks. I think it was, yeah, about a month of that. And then that did clear away too. So I just wanted to share that there's surprises along the way where you're like, I thought it was just quitting porn. Then you're like, wait, now I'm tapping into my body and I'm feeling affection.
Mhmm. And it's gonna be different for every person's story. Mhmm. So.
Caitlyn: Yeah. Yeah. I think this ties in well. I was gonna say, I don't think we've actually ever shared this live, but you saying that sparked this memory of when we were in the very, very first initial phases of practicing our own framework, which at the time we didn't know it was a framework. We had no idea if it would work.
And I remember there was a couple times, it was about for a week stint, where I was like very, very upset with you and I would like leave to go for a walk or something. And you he was tapping into sounds like what you're tapping into where he's like, I'm done lying and hiding, keeping anything from you anymore, so I'm gonna say everything out loud and it's not really gonna be very pretty. And he you had like a whole week stint where he would have thoughts of like, you're fat. It would just like go through his head, speaking of me. And he would say that he was like, and he would preface it of course of like, I don't actually think that you're fat.
My mind and body is trying to communicate this to me though, which ties into what he's talking about. It's like, then you can access, what am I actually feeling right now? Then you can access you can even, like you said, you you learned from a young age to judge women and to almost critique what's attractive, what's not attractive, what do I like, what do I not like, you know? And it's like, this is the gift you get to offer yourself is you're clearing the slate of all of that. To clear it out though, it actually has to come up.
So even though it's ugly and it doesn't feel good or sound good coming out, it actually has to come all the way up and out. I like to equate it to, you know, when we get like an actual stomach bug or a virus, the body starts making us throw up because it's like, oh, I'm going to help you get this virus out, right? So essentially, you've digested a virus from a young age, this belief system of how you are supposed to or how you're wired or created to view women. And so now your body's like, oh, let me help you. I'm gonna help you throw up this virus and get it out.
And so this was a part of the phase for us too, which he he found is linking to similar as you're saying. It's linking to a judgment of all women, almost as if you've become the judge of who's attractive and who's not. And then it was also linking to a sense of feeling powerless or powerful. It was like, you know, because if you are the judge, you do start to feel powerful. Right?
And so then you can look at like, oh, of course, you're my wife. Of course, I think you're beautiful. Here's what's coming up right now and I'm gonna clear it out. As opposed to like, oh my gosh, how am I having these thoughts again? And it doesn't sound like you really have that type of languaging anyways.
It's just that's the contrast of like, oh, woe is me. How is this happening to me to I have these thoughts about you and I'm going to take 100% responsibility. I'm gonna figure out why is this coming up? Like, why am I thinking this about you right now? What did I train myself to, you know, even if it's a specific memory, let's just take the stomach memory or that thought that's coming up.
It's like, when do I remember I always love and we talked about this on the last couple episodes. When do I first remember, like, judging a woman by her appearance? Like, when do I first remember looking at a woman's stomach and thinking, oh, that's attractive? When do I first remember thinking, oh, that's an unattractive stomach? Because sometimes these things come up and out because they want to help you link back to when it all began, you know?
So it's like a puzzle piece you can piece together. Like, remember when we started going through a lot of his thoughts and memories that would come up, it was like, oh, here's this very specific memory that you would have, and she looked a very certain way. So that's why this tracks over to the exact type of woman you're trying to have an emotional connection with now. You know, it linked all the way back to that first memory when you saw a girl in the bikini at the water park and it felt very sexually charged and you're kinda like, oh, I'm not supposed to be seeing this, but I am seeing this. Links all the way to twenty years later when we're married and there's the same type of woman, you know, it's like our story paints a really clear picture for us.
So every time something's coming up that's excruciatingly painful, embodiment is key, which you guys have heard us talk about in the in the previous podcast seasons. And because the embodiment piece helps you to understand what am I feeling in my body now? What do I wanna feel in my body? What does this link to from my past? And then continuing like, even if it's a non sexual thought as this one is, it's it's somewhat sexual in the sense of it's it's making a judgment of an appearance.
This is the exact thing that you're doing the four r's through. So you're clearing out, you know, when you're looking at someone outside, you're clearing out when you're on Facebook and you're seeing something, you're clearing out these thoughts that are coming up, and there will be a day when everything literally is cleared and cleansed out. And it sounds like you guys have been doing it for a while. How long have you guys been practicing the elements of, like, getting out your full story and doing the four r's?
Kelsey: Yeah. We took our baby moon to Maui actually at So the end of I think that was when I had when I put on the podcast episode in June on the way home from his work trip, he was like, that was a lot. I need some time. And then I, like, you know, put it out there again. I was like, what if we make this baby moon?
Like, a time to connect.
Evan: Like, the the dialogue structure was like, I don't know if I agree with all that, you know, like, it's For now sure. I can identify what it was. Right?
Kelsey: So probably July.
Caitlyn: Okay. So when you did the baby moon, you listened to it all over again or you just re digested what you knew you had heard?
Kelsey: Kind of both. So in June, we had only I had only played one episode for him and he was like, that was a lot. I need a break. And we never I didn't try to like push him too much on it. I would just kind of plant the seeds and bring it up from time to time like, think I there's really something here.
Yeah. Yeah. But then we were doing the road to Hana on our baby moon. I was like, we have a lot of driving. Like, what if we just listen to these?
Caitlyn: Yeah. Amazing.
Evan: Yeah. So, yeah. And then I think it was basically, from July to now, it's been a combination of out in the world, you know, I was, you know, at Sprouts, I saw this girl, objectified her, and then we do it for hours. And then like, there's been like memories that come up, right? Particularly even like something very interesting too, like you mentioned how there's a connection to the very beginning with my objectifying thoughts towards Kelsey.
Even with our baby, like things come up because she is so innocent and so pure and so beautiful. My body just is bringing up, oh, this is like a pure, beautiful human being. Let's just like bring up like these deep memories of porn videos that had, that I was watching when I was in sixth grade and seventh grade. And I'm like, wow, I didn't even, I haven't thought about that for I 20 had no idea. So then it's like different fetishes, different things I would look at and say, Hey, I remember this really affected me when I was in seventh grade.
And then even doing the work of like, let's make, try to make a connection about, and thanks be to God. I think we've been making a lot of connections about my home life, some abuse with my mom. There's some triangulation, enmeshment. There's a lot going on that like, was just like, my mom, so she passed away a few years ago. My mom's a saint, you know, like, and really just kind of only speaking positively about her.
Yeah. But trying to find the line of like, I'm able to honor, but also be honest about the reality of my home life was very rough. And there's no wonder that I was really clinging to porn.
Brandon: Yeah. Porn at that time. It sounds like this is again, a friend of mine that's like a trauma therapist. He helped me identify too, that a lot of the thoughts we have, we can shift basically those, their existence in our mind through the, the, like, the root emotion. So like you said, you know, like, it's not that your daughter is, like, a turn on towards your pornography, but what it is is it's maybe, like, an unknowing of how to feel a sense of innocence in your body.
And you you you even trace it. You you my brain said, hey. This is I remember feeling innocent back in sixth grade or this type of porn that I was first exposed to when it felt the most innocent. And then something was this is how your mind said, this is what that feeling feels like. Because you maybe hadn't have felt that in twenty years because you maybe it it really numbed you down and it desensitized you and you're in this, state of innocence, like, vulnerability, or maybe even the, the ability to process what Kelsey's body went through in pregnancy and delivery.
And you're like looking at her and you're like, I actually don't even know how to like process with you what that experience is like. So your body goes to, let's make a judgment or let's, like, compartmentalize this to what we understand. So I would really I think that what would bring a lot of ease to this season you guys are in now where you're really, like, fine tuning would just be getting comfortable feeling the emotions you want to feel and not shying away from, like, the we'll call them vulnerable emotions, like, the ones that they make you feel, like weak's not the word, but, like, seen. Like, really, like, exposed. It's, watching my my wife give birth, like, very vulnerable because it's very out of control.
Seeing the innocence of my child, like, that will bring up fears. Like, how do I take care of this child? How do I love this child? How do I protect this child? Like and it's these are all, like I think the thing that gets stolen a lot from years of addiction for a lot of people is the it's just the ability to feel the full spectrum of emotion.
Mhmm. So it's kinda what's happening. Because how old are you?
Evan: I'm 32.
Brandon: 32. So now, like, 32 after, you know, we'll call it, like, maybe it's, you know, 10. We'll just say 10 for easy math. Like, you know, twenty years of being pretty desensitized to life. Now it's almost like you're seeing the full spectrum of color, and it might be a little bit, like Mhmm.
Unsettling. So your mind's like, where's our anchor? It's like, went to porn when we processed
Caitlyn: Mhmm.
Brandon: Difficult things, when we were lonely, when we were frustrated, when we got rejected
Evan: Mhmm.
Brandon: When we didn't have sex or we had sex and we're trying to process this experience we had. So it's you're essentially finding a new filter to process life through, which you're doing it. Yep. I just wanna encourage you that the root emotion that you're feeling Mhmm. To really step into a season of labeling it.
So like when you think when you know, you see your daughter and That's good.
Evan: And you've already worked for
Brandon: the four hours of what came up, you're like, what was the root emotion? So you you've got you seem like you got some clarity, but I'd say like, to encourage and affirm, like, clarity that now unlocks for you to feel the innocence of being a dad with a newborn and all the beauty that that is. And now there's no more clutter in your closet. Because what what happens at a subconscious level is let's just take let's take Evan that didn't decide to get sober. Kelsey, how you you and Kelsey have a baby.
You'd have that same moment where you feel overwhelmed looking at the baby. Kelsey puts baby to sleep. You decide to stay up late and binge watch porn because you don't know how to process everything going on in life. Like, that was what you would have done, and it would have been subconscious. You wouldn't even know why you're doing it.
Just like, I'm just overwhelmed. Like, I'm kinda maxed out. Like, we're missing sleep. Like, this is a lot to process. I don't know how to care for this child, but you're not even thinking you just go numb out.
Now you're like, this brings up. This is confusing. And then you're sitting with it and you're refraving it and you're, you're, you're healing. And I think that's the implications of that for your children's children is so massive Mhmm. Because you're not going to have an enmeshed relationship with your kids Right.
Because that's what your mom
Evan: gave you or your or your
Brandon: dad, whatever was there. And Mhmm. I just think that even though it can feel uncomfortable and weak, I would look at the significance and the strength that that is the daily decisions you're making in in clearing out that debris. It's huge.
Caitlyn: Yeah. This is essentially the which you know this because you're practicing it and embodying it. This is the fourth r, the replacing of it. So it's like when that emotion when you felt the innocence, and then you had a different association. It's like what Brandon said, whenever we would go to connect in the beginning, it was like anything connecting was always other women's breasts.
It was just no matter what we were doing to connect, it didn't matter it was talking, sex, doing it like an exercise like from a counselor, whatever it was, it was just breasts, breasts, breasts, breasts, all different types of breasts from movies, from porn, from whatever he had seen. And it was so fatiguing because I'm just like, can we not just have one conversation without someone else's boobs? Like, literally have journal entries where I'm just like, can we talk without anyone's boobs coming up? And for him, it was like, when he was able to realize, oh, for, you know, fifteen, twenty years of my life, I related connection with breasts. Because if you think about it, like you guys have a brand new baby, we have four babies.
It's like, how does a child
Evan: Our feel
Brandon: babies are a little spaced out just for
Caitlyn: We don't four babies altogether, but we have four beautiful children that I've nursed, and so it's like, how does a child feel connected? They feel connected through the breast, right? And so we've distorted that. It's like, it it was essentially, it was an innocent perspective for a young male to to associate connection with breasts, and then it gets distorted through media, through porn, through culture, through conversations with other kids, all of that, and it becomes this very sexual, erotic, almost dark energy type of a thing. So when Brandon would, when he recognized, oh, this is how I related connection my whole life.
I'm going to replace that through the four r's, that last four r. I'm gonna replace connection with being here in the moment with my wife. Being that could even be, I'm gonna be connected to the earth. Like, I'm gonna take in, like, look at the trees. They're blowing.
I'm gonna hear the sound of the wind. Like, you can make it really tangible. Like, connection now is the bond that I have with my child. Like, it's this whole replacing of and it might take a couple times. I always like to tell people, if you had two decades of telling yourself this certain emotion needs to bring up these certain images or this certain emotion needs to lead you to seek out those certain types of behaviors or images, then it might take a couple weeks of rewiring in what the emotion of connection or innocence or we could it it could even be closeness.
Like, your body I don't know your full story, but, like, your body your mind, when you get close with Kelsey, could be, like, almost having repelling thoughts because being close to someone into in that close of a way where you're actually seen through intimacy, which I always say you guys know this intimacy is into me you see. It's not sex. Sex is the byproduct of that. So if you're coming into close proximity now for the very first time in your marriage where it's like, oh, woah, I'm fully seen and fully known right now because I'm choosing to expose all that's true. Your mind and body and subconscious might be going, let's throw some darts because I'm scared to be close here because maybe it was scary if you were close with your parents or close with somebody else.
You see how it really all begins to track the more you get to the root of why am I feeling this way? What am I feeling? Okay. This feeling is associated with these types of behaviors and scenes and images. Now I'm gonna replace it with what I actually want that emotion to be associated with.
And all of this, what we're describing is really what we call embodiment. It's you coming back home to your body, to your emotions, to that awareness. And most people, we're just trying to get them on step one, which is that they recognize that they have a denial structure and they're lying. Like, last two episodes are just like, you're still lying. Right?
Yep. And I'm not here to say I think you're lying or not. I just think similar to even as Kelsey was already saying, there's a persona that comes with someone who's carrying a bag of lies. It's really hard for someone who's still carrying a lot of lies to speak with a lot of responsibility and to take a lot of ownership because the denial structure cuts in, our language says a lot. So it's like that denial structure starts to cut in and starts to add in a couple other words to where sitting on the outside it's like, oh, that's nice that you think that you've gotten out all your lies.
I can hear though that you've got a whole big bag over here.
Brandon: She's not saying that.
Caitlyn: Not, I'm not saying about you guys, I'm saying about other people when their denial starts butting in. So it's like for most people, they're just trying to grasp the idea that it's safe and a good idea for their marriage to bring everything out into the open. You've grasped that idea, now you're doing that, you're now in the phase two where it's like, okay, you're coming back home to your body and you're clearing everything out. And so six months it's about five, six months that you guys have been doing this, which is a long time. I don't like to give any timelines on anything.
I just like to say, like, if you wanna add a little more fuel, which you can answer this, I would say turn up the the knobs on how much you wanna clear out because it's it really is once it all gets cleared out, it's actually leaving you. That's why with the four r's is an actual process where it's like, it's gonna it's gonna be gone and replaced with something else. So since your denial structure is breaking down and you're willing and open to see clearly, if you turn up the dial and go, okay, keep pouring it out, keep pouring it out, and you sit down together every single day and it's like, here's what's pouring out, here's what's coming out, here's the four hours, here's what I'm replacing it with, then then the time frame of how much longer you need to be in this season is gonna dramatically cut down.
Brandon: Yeah. Evan, have you had any experiences, doing the embodiment work?
Evan: Yeah. So when I had the app for those two weeks, I got the morning and night routine. And then I recently added, embodying what it feels like to be sexual with Kelsey. Nice. And then we just started doing because we we just finished phase two of our course.
So we started doing dailies and then affirmations and going through those emotions. So I will just say that like the five months, I feel very kindred to you, Brandon. And like, it was a lot of kicking and screaming because every month it felt like a, a progressive, deeper sense of like, okay, here's another denial structure, another denial structure. And I'll speak on Kelsey's behalf that like these things hurt right now recently because it feels like even still there's like this little, that last little tower of denial structure about how I see her, how I've seen her in the past. I was kind of like tucking away of like, okay, well, that feels a little bit too scary.
That feels way too painful. And so then when it comes out, it's like Kelsey's feeling and I can, you know, correct me if I'm over speaking about how you're feeling, but just like, it hurts so much more because, like, we've been on this for five months, and it's been consist so the the theme for for the the our journey has been the lack of consistency and the lack of commitment to what you're describing, which is and and the past three days, it's just been a tumultuous season of, okay, I really want to own this for what it is and non negotiably incorporate the embodiment exercises. And even furthermore, the replace has been the most challenging thing for months because I do the four R and I could easily admit, yep. I checked her out because it used to be in July, August, was I noticed something or I maybe saw, and I'm like, I have the capacity to check somebody up and down from the periphery of my eye. And I want to take ownership of that, that that happened.
And then I go through the four hours. Right. And then when I go and I want to replace it with, and then I feel like I just like, I'm out of air because I'm like, what, what is it? Because, and that's where I feel like the lack of embodiment has emotionally, I've been waking up in little snippets
Caitlyn: Mhmm.
Evan: And I've you know, we've had some breakthroughs of, like, deep cries and things have been really released. But now I'm like, okay. There's a sense of curiosity that I really want to embody where everything there's nothing random. Everything can be traced to something. And so I can replace it with something.
If it's the, if it's the child, Evan, if it's a memory, like if it takes all night to try to get there or even when I do the four in the, in the moment of the memory coming up and jot it down. So that's kind of where we're at. I, do you want to add anything Kelsey to that?
Kelsey: No. Yeah. I think that sounds pretty good. The only other thing maybe I would add if you guys have any advice is I think the longer we're on this journey, the more difficult it's getting, I think, for me to keep staying regulated. Like, well, now that I know that pretty much, like, anytime we drive down the road or we go to the store or we go to church or we go downstairs to get the mail.
Like, any any time we go anywhere, if there is a woman, he's looking at her. So I think now I'm we're noticing developing this, like, hyper vigilance. And then it's like, as soon as we, like, get back in the elevator, I'm like, did you check her out? And he's like, yeah, I
Caitlyn: did. Yeah.
Kelsey: And I guess I don't know how to cope with that or if you guys have, yeah, any advice on that. Yeah. Because I hate that. I hate that hyper vigilance, but I guess, I don't know. I guess maybe it's
Evan: where like Kelsey before had never noticed anybody, but now she's noticing body parts of women, body
Kelsey: parts, body
Evan: parts of men's like, I'm noticing that because it's like, that that's kind of now she feels like she's trying to bring on my framework. I feel bad because it's like, without that, you would have maybe so now, you know what I'm saying? Like, now it feels like it's The
Brandon: replacing piece, you were saying it feels difficult to choose the new. Where do you feel like there's the hesitancy on what the new, like, cause that's like, if you're going to go through all of the, the hassle is not the right word, but if you're going be courageous to look at everything and recognize it, receive peace in your body to release it, like you've done like the heavy lifting there. Like, cause most people never even recognize it, But once you get to the replacing, this is like this is like not like the the easy part, but, like, this is the part where you get to now craft your new experience. I guess I was just curious what's what's felt like a roadblock from getting to to feel strong in in that place?
Evan: I I don't know. I just feel like maybe it doesn't feel, maybe, maybe there's like a, there's a lack of embodiment or lack of emotional awareness to where I will just say the thing that I know to be true. Right. So I replace it with the idea that I don't objectify people, that I'm creating a life of healing, I, when I feel dysregulated or unsafe, that that's not an option for me, that I can look at people and, and, and recognize who they are as human beings. And I can create this for me right now.
And I say that most of the time, but I just feel like sometimes it feels like I want to make a deeper connection with the emotion of like, yeah, I checked somebody out and I felt, I felt something tangible of like, wow, I looked at that person and I felt something, but then I'm like, I don't feel what I should be feeling. Like, you know, I'm trying to say, when you went, we were talking about the emotions, you do the embodiment. And sometimes I'm like, okay, I want to try to figure out the connection, but I don't know. I can't even name the emotion. I just feel lust.
I feel like that was something that maybe is important to me. When I do the four hours, I'm like, what is the thing that I'm feeling? And I guess to your, I I'm guessing your answer might be that to do more, more emotional ground, to do even more emotional work because I feel emotionally inept, like across the board. Yeah. It just feels like it's so new to me that I can't even identify.
I can hardly identify what emotion is behind most of these times I'm looking at
Brandon: Well, you're definitely still thawing out. So in the replace piece, I want to encourage the language that I wanted to upgrade for you was you're kind of talking about the things you will not do. Kind of like you said, I'm not going to do this or I will not do this. The replacing is actually something you will do. So I wanted to make it about like a, instead of like a, I'm not going to turn around or I'm not going to backpedal.
You're actually going to have to walk towards something. So a simple example is if you looked at a woman's backside, you recognize it. You receive peace. You release that way of seeing her. You already released the old way.
The new way is when I noticed her, I saw her face and everything felt neutral. So that's, I want you to actually make the there's action. There's an actual action that you would picture yourself taking the action you want to take and define it. So instead of being like, I didn't do that again. Cause unfortunately, Evan, you can't not, like, exist in that moment in the next time or in the future or the past.
You have to actually make it you have to rewrite for your mind to, like, pick up new data. It's like, oh, Evan said he looks at people's faces and sees people as neutral, sees people as just another person passing by, and there's and I saw them as a as just another person. Mhmm. And you could say, and I didn't judge them. Right?
I saw them as a I try to not use certain language because some people go, like, I saw them as a beautiful daughter of God. And you should see some of the weirdest comments like, God's God's beauty. It's like, so not like getting weird with it, but more of like
Evan: I avoided that on on purpose because I'm like because I we grew up that way too. Know, it's like, blessed I almost said I blessed her. I'm like, I don't wanna say that.
Caitlyn: Yeah. Like a neutral human being that's just like another human.
Brandon: This is how is, this is how I picture it. And this is why I tell people when they are like, being or being attracted or seeing attraction everywhere is normal. It's like, will my subconscious pick up my adult daughters out of my peripherals and say that woman's attractive when she's in her twenties? It won't. So, because there's something that it knows and we have some stories we've never shared publicly just because they're, they're so intricate and complicated to share.
But I had many experiences where there were certain people that my subconscious did not pick up regardless of what they were wearing. But it was only like a few people. Was like, I didn't I didn't have to try. Like, I've been trying so hard. I walk outside, I'm trying.
And if I like, let my guard down, I'm like seeing things. But there was something about where this person was categorized in my mind that my Raz said, we don't need to pick that information up. Mhmm. So for you, what I would just say is you're what you're basically doing is your brain is still waiting for you to put everybody in the category of neutrality. The reason I like neutral is because we don't need to hate them or be like Mhmm.
There's another whore walking by. I'm not gonna look at her. It's it's actually it's very positive. It's just there's another woman that I would look at as if she was my daughter. Now not like you're her father and she's your daughter, but it's just it's neutral.
Caitlyn: Respect.
Brandon: Yeah. It's respect, but it's also like the this, like, attraction piece that that we wrestle with is is primarily about the desire to have an orgasm or relationship with somebody. You're not seeking to stimulate yourself or have an orgasm through masturbation through the concept or the idea of any of these women. I think that's true. You're also not desiring to have any form of relational connection with this person.
So if your brain's still trying to tell you that, all you're saying is, oh, thank you for, I almost like, that's what they're recognizing is almost like ding, ding, ding. Thank you brain for bringing that to my awareness. I actually am, we're good here. Like, kinda like, it's kinda like after you've been out of buffets, like, I actually don't want any more food. I'm I'm good.
I actually only see other women's faces because I found the one that I love. So I know I told you to tell me like brain, it's almost like telling brain. Thank you. You actually told me the information I asked you to.
Evan: Now
Brandon: I'm telling you please next time, just show me her face, the back of her head. And just let me know that there's another person in proximity. If I'm driving, please just continue to tell me when there's a car that I don't see. But there's no like, so I would just make it more about what you want. So the same thing with some of the things you've been walking through with, with, with Kelsey and how you, how you're like wanting to see her body differently.
Just like brain, thank you for telling me that the changes I've seen. These are these are the beautiful signs of my wife has bore a child to to us and let that build a deeper affection and love in my heart. So it's just more of a simplicity of what you want. That's the replace. So I think it's not that's like your time to hit the home run is like, what do I wanna what do I want to see going forward?
I wanna see people for who they are Mhmm. And from a neutral place, and I want to feel empowered in in my emotions. So this be the architect of your new awareness.
Caitlyn: Mhmm. And I'll answer your question, Kelsey. I wanted to add one more thing about the replacing aspect. What I saw Brandon in body and what I think is worth noting is that that replacing element is also coming back to the present moment because your whole life, you've actually been escaping the present moment because it's been uncomfortable. Right?
So it's like all there's all these negative emotions, anxiety. You know, it sounds like you were raised in a somewhat tumultuous home, most of us were. And you know, maybe there was chaotic experiences at school, sports, whatever with friends. There's all this stuff, and so you essentially learned for most of your life to escape the present moment, right? And so that replacing element, I like to see it as like, woah, I'm coming back to the present moment.
Like you said, so it's like, it's hard to figure out the emotion that links to all that. So it's like, pause for a second. What do I wanna feel right now? Like, even looking at like, sometimes we forget to just, look around. Like, maybe, like you said, you're getting an elevator to go down.
It's like, where are you going? Are you excited about where you're going? Okay. You're with your you're with your wife. Like, okay.
I'm coming back to this present moment, which is that I'm with my wife. I love my wife. I'm with my daughter. I love my daughter. We're on this elevator going to, I don't know, going to dinner, going to the store, going to run an errand, like, oh, I love my life.
Like, see the difference of, I'm coming back to my body, to the present moment, I'm feeling my feet on the ground, I'm taking in, like, actually I always bring this back, it's like, coming back to what matters most. Like, I'm digesting what actually matters most to me, because I told my brain that this random lady over here is supposed to mean something to me. Now I'm saying that doesn't mean anything to me anymore. And so now I'm saying brain, this is what matters to me. The trees that are beautiful, the sun on my face, the grass touching my feet, my hand holding my spouse's hand, like my eyes seeing my baby, like see the difference of the life here.
And it's like, now I'm home at my body. I know what I'm feeling. And it's like, this is like exercising a muscle. Right? So it's like, you're not gonna get it tomorrow, which will loop to Kelsey's question, which is essentially this hyper vigilance that we feel as a wife.
And sometimes I read my journal entries, because I have 400 journal entries from this time, just because I remember a lot of what I went through and I wanna remember it deeper. Because now five years out of that, which is also the beauty of what I can bring and share is like five years out of that, people are like, why do you cry on the podcast? Is it because you're still sad? It's like, no. Because I know I have so much hope.
Like, I just wanna scream. I'm like, get it, get it, get it, because it's so good. Because five years, I'm like, pretty much what I wanna say is buckle up. It's so good right here and now. And I wanna remember like, oh, I remember the day when nobody looked me in the face and said, Caitlyn, it's worth it.
Everyone said, absolutely do not listen to those things from your husband. Never have him share those things. Counselors kicking us out. People telling me I'm controlling. People telling me I'm codependent.
Nobody thought it was a good idea, and I'm just like, I'll die in a marriage with this much secrets. Like, I would rather be I remember telling myself, I'd rather be single for the rest of my life if this what it is is what it's supposed to be coexisting with another human. And it's like, I just remember that the pain and the the vigilance of like, okay. Remember every single night, we put the kids to bed and it's like, okay, I'm just already crying because I know it's gonna feel so painful. And it's like, now fast forward, I wanna offer the hope of like, I see Evan and he's choosing into this.
And you'll know he's choosing into it because he's gonna do his embodiment. He's gonna show up and say, hey, here's what I'm rewiring. And I guarantee you, I know it because it's our LIV story that there is a day where you walk out and all that matters is the the true things that matter most to you. Your relationship, the children you're bringing into the world, the life that you're creating through your legacy, the nature that you're exploring and experiencing, life becomes so abundant and so good. And we we talk about this a lot in the community, which you guys will be able to have access to.
It's like, the practicals as a woman who's been betrayed is like, it's this self care element, like putting your face in the sun, getting outside, going for walks. It's almost like you're training for a marathon in some sense, and people are always like, I feel like I have to always explain myself. Be like, you're freaking psycho lady, like that you would want people to go through this. And I'm like, I want you to go through it because the other side is so good. Because if you don't walk through it, then you live with a husband who objectifies women every single day.
That doesn't feel good even if you don't know it. That doesn't feel good to him. That doesn't feel good to you. Right? The pain in knowing it is that you get to the other side where there's a day where you wake up fully intimate.
Like, I know everything about Brandon. He knows everything about me. I feel 100% safe to go to the beach every single day when there's women with their their breasts hanging out in thong bikinis. Neither of us have a care in the world. I wasn't gonna live that existence if we didn't check through this.
I was gonna live having no idea that he was looking at everyone's butts on the beach, And I think we're connected, but we're not. Right? We're now we forged through I said this yesterday in the podcast. It's like we forged through that dark forest of everything we need to clear. We cleared it all out, and we live in this beautiful abundant meadow.
Right? So you guys are in the forest right now. You're clearing it out. The gift is that Evan is willing to clear it out. That doesn't make it easy for you.
That's so excruciatingly painful. I have 400 journal entries like I recommend grabbing a pen and pouring out your heart, like writing everything that's painful. It sounds like he's willing to even sit and validate and hear your experience. The more he gets in his body, the more he's gonna be like, that must have hurt. I wanna hear how that made you feel.
Like, I wanna reflect that back to you.
Brandon: Yeah.
Caitlyn: I wanna sit and hold you. I wanna hold space for what you're feeling. You might not wanna be held. Like, these are the things that bring about sometimes we can hear some of the most devastating news and actually feels extremely connected afterwards. Yeah.
Because that's the byproduct of into me, you see. It's like, woah, you thought that sharing all of that out loud would like wreak havoc and it actually only brought deeper connection because now everything is out and everything's fully seen. And that's how you get to the day where it's like there's bliss and connection in your union. And so what I'm saying essentially is take care of yourself, journal, go outside, sleep, eat all the foundational elements of nourishing you and take my token of hope of like, there's a day where it's so good and so beautiful and you're not right there right now, yet you're really, really close. Because you guys are both 100% ready to track through this and you're gonna blaze down that entire force.
You really are. I guarantee you six months to a year from now, your marriage looks completely different and you'll stand back and go, woah, that was worth every day that I cried and every night I didn't sleep and every pain my heart felt because now the rest of the years of our life and our marriage are so good and whole and complete. It's so worth it.
Brandon: Yeah. Thank you, Barry. The final thing I wanted to leave you guys with was, Evan, it might feel really disturbing, uncomfortable week to be on this process of kind of the unraveling. And I want you to be really excited. Not the word, but determined to recognize like what you plant now will be the man you become for the decades to come.
So like, I want you to picture, like, like, if you're like a, like what you write when you replace the old with the new, like, that will become. Mhmm. You you're also letting go of it sounds like you might have your own business and and or what you work with some some business and, like, everything you'll touch now as you are fully embodied, as there's nothing dragging you down or competing for your mental space besides your beautiful wife and kids. Like that's, that's not even competition. It's just an integration.
Your whole life opens up. So as, as weak and vulnerable as this process feels, you're actually building something, a foundation that's very strong. That's, that's where I want you to really see yourself every time you replace something that's old. That's the strength position. It's like, Oh, that's who I was.
That's what was modeled for me. I want something even better for my family. I want something in better for how I interact with my wife. I want to know intimacy. I want to know what it feels like to feel connection.
And again, it's uncomfortable, but it's, it's removing everything that is for everything that you want to have happen. And so I'm inspired by you guys. It's it's a,
Caitlyn: it's inspiring both of you.
Brandon: Yeah. For those of you listening, if you've been like, don't, I don't know if I want to start this journey. Oh, Evan jumped into it. And Kelsey has been brave to, to support. And also Kelsey to stand for what you know is yours to have, because a lot of women and men think, well, here's, here's as good as it can get.
And you said, you know, I I know there's more. I know there's more for us. I know there's more for me. And for any man that would want to go that deep means there's a woman and vice versa that says, here's the type of intimacy. Here's the type of connection I believe we can have.
Here's the value that my body holds. Come meet me here. And so I think for every couple, like, never lower the standard if what you're experiencing isn't hitting your standard. Just remove the old and invite the new. Mhmm.
So, guys, thank you so much for being being on the show, and thank you for listening. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes. We're on Spotify, Apple, YouTube, and anywhere you stream your podcasts. If you would like to join the Grounded Union app, you can see the links in the show notes. Thank you so much.