1 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:06,790 [kel]: welcome to the radically genuine podcast dr roger mcfillin for our fans out there 2 00:00:07,071 --> 00:00:12,915 [kel]: how about you take one second pause this podcast and click on five stars for 3 00:00:12,975 --> 00:00:18,625 [kel]: us on an apple there you go mom come on o mom's our fan now 4 00:00:18,745 --> 00:00:21,289 [kel]: we know from our numbers that there's a lot of people out there who are 5 00:00:21,993 --> 00:00:26,002 [kel]: fans of the topics and we do do bring in topics that are outside 6 00:00:25,810 --> 00:00:26,013 [beverley_thomson]: yes 7 00:00:26,042 --> 00:00:31,170 [kel]: the main stream and people are interested in hearing more about our perspectives and the 8 00:00:31,210 --> 00:00:34,756 [kel]: perspectives of our guests so please that's important if we can get more five stars 9 00:00:34,836 --> 00:00:43,618 [kel]: out there we love that please visit r website rad rad gen dot com agen 10 00:00:43,678 --> 00:00:47,664 [kel]: pod e's always got the radgenpod 11 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:49,060 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 12 00:00:47,764 --> 00:00:50,249 [kel]: dot com and you can contact us there we've been 13 00:00:50,269 --> 00:00:50,290 [beverley_thomson]: m 14 00:00:50,309 --> 00:00:56,054 [kel]: getting son email s from guests with interesting thoughts on future topics and we really 15 00:00:56,094 --> 00:01:00,481 [kel]: do appreciate that and it's really assisted me getting out to talking to some other 16 00:01:00,541 --> 00:01:05,269 [kel]: people out there who are experts outside of areas that i have studied and that's 17 00:01:05,590 --> 00:01:10,660 [kel]: important for us to bring on guests who have experts in specific areas definitely us 18 00:01:10,740 --> 00:01:13,645 [kel]: welcome back kelly we missed you last week i had to go on vacation 19 00:01:13,660 --> 00:01:14,620 [beverley_thomson]: oh 20 00:01:13,725 --> 00:01:15,949 [kel]: again my third time 21 00:01:16,290 --> 00:01:16,451 [beverley_thomson]: wow 22 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,985 [kel]: the life of the life of a teacher life of an other tey with your 23 00:01:20,045 --> 00:01:25,194 [kel]: summers off just so easy i wouldn't say as maybe you need those breaks more 24 00:01:25,234 --> 00:01:30,900 [kel]: than others i would they're well earned well we're glad to have you back it 25 00:01:30,940 --> 00:01:35,908 [kel]: was an interesting podcast last week because we were talking about the umbrella review study 26 00:01:36,268 --> 00:01:42,118 [kel]: on sarah to nan and its association with depression so fortuitous guests that we have 27 00:01:42,238 --> 00:01:48,128 [kel]: today in the same same realm in the same area our guest today is beverly 28 00:01:48,188 --> 00:01:53,042 [kel]: thompson she's a resort sure author of mental health advocate with experts and understanding the 29 00:01:53,202 --> 00:01:59,610 [kel]: adverse effects of anti depressence including anti depress and induced suicide amongst young people everley 30 00:01:59,690 --> 00:02:03,936 [kel]: has worked with the british medical association the scottish government and the u k council 31 00:02:03,996 --> 00:02:08,933 [kel]: for evidence based psychiatry we just got finished with her book she's the author of 32 00:02:09,194 --> 00:02:16,406 [kel]: anti depressed break through examination of epidemic anti depressing harm and dependent beverly welcome to 33 00:02:16,446 --> 00:02:18,189 [kel]: the radically genuine podcast 34 00:02:18,730 --> 00:02:19,600 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 35 00:02:21,311 --> 00:02:23,297 [kel]: she's paused a little bit 36 00:02:23,670 --> 00:02:25,116 [beverley_thomson]: thank you for inviting me 37 00:02:25,500 --> 00:02:26,101 [kel]: there you are 38 00:02:28,042 --> 00:02:28,324 [beverley_thomson]: post 39 00:02:28,064 --> 00:02:30,208 [kel]: from from the scottish highlands 40 00:02:30,154 --> 00:02:30,496 [beverley_thomson]: i'm back 41 00:02:30,849 --> 00:02:31,390 [kel]: yes she's 42 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:31,606 [beverley_thomson]: oh 43 00:02:31,430 --> 00:02:31,650 [kel]: back 44 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:33,910 [beverley_thomson]: oh 45 00:02:32,912 --> 00:02:34,875 [kel]: listen congratulations on the 46 00:02:34,833 --> 00:02:35,115 [beverley_thomson]: okay 47 00:02:34,936 --> 00:02:40,716 [kel]: book it's an outstanding resource but i am really interested to know how you got 48 00:02:41,770 --> 00:02:44,218 [kel]: focused and interested in this particular area 49 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,226 [beverley_thomson]: yeah it's a really really interesting story from 50 00:02:50,130 --> 00:02:50,475 [kel]: oh 51 00:02:50,406 --> 00:02:52,610 [beverley_thomson]: point of view i'm probably not what you would 52 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:53,460 [kel]: oh 53 00:02:52,710 --> 00:02:57,718 [beverley_thomson]: expect and my experience isn't probably what you would expect so i'm actually a graduate 54 00:02:57,858 --> 00:03:03,968 [beverley_thomson]: in mark ing and languages and then i moved to the highlands of scotland and 55 00:03:04,229 --> 00:03:09,818 [beverley_thomson]: couldn't really find a job so i decided to to do open university psychology and 56 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:12,463 [beverley_thomson]: went to work as a councillor 57 00:03:12,210 --> 00:03:12,430 [kel]: oh 58 00:03:12,663 --> 00:03:14,526 [beverley_thomson]: in schools so i worked in primary 59 00:03:14,580 --> 00:03:14,964 [kel]: oh 60 00:03:14,586 --> 00:03:21,558 [beverley_thomson]: and secondary schools and i think about fifteen years ago also i can't exactly remember 61 00:03:22,660 --> 00:03:27,448 [beverley_thomson]: started to notice that so much was changing in terms of the way that we 62 00:03:27,548 --> 00:03:34,880 [beverley_thomson]: were actually speaking about children and their behavior and i started to notice that you 63 00:03:34,940 --> 00:03:39,408 [beverley_thomson]: know a lot of the problems the society problems they had and the school problems 64 00:03:39,888 --> 00:03:41,952 [beverley_thomson]: that they had were actually blaming 65 00:03:41,852 --> 00:03:41,952 [kel]: she 66 00:03:42,012 --> 00:03:42,152 [beverley_thomson]: them 67 00:03:42,053 --> 00:03:42,315 [kel]: froze 68 00:03:42,873 --> 00:03:47,341 [beverley_thomson]: you know the language started to be that we were blaming the child and for 69 00:03:47,441 --> 00:03:51,688 [beverley_thomson]: not being able to cope with their lives and i started to notice you know 70 00:03:51,748 --> 00:03:55,334 [beverley_thomson]: the terms were being brought in like you know i think he or she has 71 00:03:55,414 --> 00:04:01,862 [beverley_thomson]: a d d or i think there's something wrong with him and kind of spark 72 00:04:02,042 --> 00:04:06,494 [beverley_thomson]: something in me and i i started to think to myself i don't think this 73 00:04:06,554 --> 00:04:10,060 [beverley_thomson]: is right but i don't think this should be happening i don't think we should 74 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:16,191 [beverley_thomson]: be blaming children for not being able to cope which you know sometimes as very 75 00:04:16,331 --> 00:04:25,276 [beverley_thomson]: very difficult circumstances that children were finding themselves in um so i started to research 76 00:04:25,436 --> 00:04:30,885 [beverley_thomson]: i started to become interested in sort of the wider aspect of the state of 77 00:04:30,985 --> 00:04:39,219 [beverley_thomson]: our mental health and yeah i met james davis who i'm sure you've probably interviewed 78 00:04:39,299 --> 00:04:46,471 [beverley_thomson]: or know i did some work for kep when they first launched on became i 79 00:04:46,551 --> 00:04:49,075 [beverley_thomson]: have to say slightly obsessed with the topic 80 00:04:49,334 --> 00:04:49,860 [kel]: hm 81 00:04:50,878 --> 00:04:51,960 [beverley_thomson]: yeah it's very easy isn't 82 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:52,281 [kel]: oh 83 00:04:52,020 --> 00:04:53,703 [beverley_thomson]: it it's very easy to become 84 00:04:53,949 --> 00:04:54,090 [kel]: right 85 00:04:54,064 --> 00:04:55,125 [beverley_thomson]: sessed with the subject 86 00:04:55,425 --> 00:04:55,446 [kel]: a 87 00:04:56,227 --> 00:04:57,029 [beverley_thomson]: and from there 88 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:57,750 [kel]: oh 89 00:04:57,750 --> 00:05:04,159 [beverley_thomson]: i've always loved writing i've always loved reading and i thought to myself i'm going 90 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:05,146 [beverley_thomson]: to write a book about this 91 00:05:06,030 --> 00:05:08,514 [kel]: well we're glad that you did it's 92 00:05:08,470 --> 00:05:08,715 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 93 00:05:08,575 --> 00:05:13,503 [kel]: actually very easy to read and there's tons of resources so for those who are 94 00:05:13,703 --> 00:05:20,197 [kel]: our parents or who are currently on anti sense or more importantly professionals out in 95 00:05:20,237 --> 00:05:27,904 [kel]: the field really do recommend this as a front line resource to understand the actual 96 00:05:28,004 --> 00:05:35,076 [kel]: science and what can happen when you start taking anti depressence specifically what can happen 97 00:05:35,136 --> 00:05:38,922 [kel]: when you start taking it for an extended period of time you were saying you 98 00:05:38,942 --> 00:05:39,343 [kel]: were talking 99 00:05:39,102 --> 00:05:39,246 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 100 00:05:39,403 --> 00:05:42,288 [kel]: about the course of your career 101 00:05:42,259 --> 00:05:42,280 [beverley_thomson]: m 102 00:05:42,708 --> 00:05:48,137 [kel]: where i've kind of witnessed the same thing with the narrative change around emotional struggles 103 00:05:48,859 --> 00:05:55,126 [kel]: somewhere long the line we started talking about our emotional struggles from something that was 104 00:05:55,186 --> 00:06:01,958 [kel]: a very normal aspect of kind of growth and evolution in life with practical strategies 105 00:06:02,078 --> 00:06:06,884 [kel]: and you know centuries of wisdom to speaking about it as if it was some 106 00:06:07,004 --> 00:06:10,347 [kel]: disease that somebody caught you know my depression 107 00:06:10,101 --> 00:06:10,243 [beverley_thomson]: yep 108 00:06:10,588 --> 00:06:15,753 [kel]: my a d h d and that's that you're inflicted with and potentially like this 109 00:06:15,833 --> 00:06:19,517 [kel]: disease is something that you'd be inflicted with for the rest of your life how 110 00:06:19,778 --> 00:06:20,819 [kel]: did we get here 111 00:06:22,412 --> 00:06:26,878 [beverley_thomson]: yeah well how did we get here haven't we been gullible 112 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,910 [kel]: yeah 113 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:32,908 [beverley_thomson]: really when you think about it i mean a gullible society i think we are 114 00:06:33,169 --> 00:06:37,376 [beverley_thomson]: definitely you know one of the things is that we have just brought into it 115 00:06:37,476 --> 00:06:43,126 [beverley_thomson]: hook cline and sinker i mean how can we have been at a society where 116 00:06:43,346 --> 00:06:51,119 [beverley_thomson]: we have come to rely on serious powerful psycho active drugs and not question it 117 00:06:52,921 --> 00:06:56,988 [beverley_thomson]: how have we become a society where we've allowed ourselves to do that 118 00:06:57,759 --> 00:07:01,966 [kel]: m i think yeah i think we had a discussion on bias at one point 119 00:07:02,026 --> 00:07:07,556 [kel]: and this is purely an example of our authority bias am i right just you 120 00:07:07,696 --> 00:07:12,147 [kel]: have someone who the perceived knowledge is they know more about this than you do 121 00:07:12,227 --> 00:07:14,896 [kel]: so you trust them and even doctors 122 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:14,742 [beverley_thomson]: yep 123 00:07:15,036 --> 00:07:22,170 [kel]: trust the farmasutocal company that spent millions of dollars to develop a quote unquote solution 124 00:07:22,450 --> 00:07:26,517 [kel]: so they trust the literature that's provided to them and then they spew it out 125 00:07:26,617 --> 00:07:30,287 [kel]: to their their clients when they come in and they believe it to be true 126 00:07:31,820 --> 00:07:32,605 [kel]: multiple authorities 127 00:07:34,062 --> 00:07:38,635 [beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely i think you know one of the things that we have to think 128 00:07:38,695 --> 00:07:43,403 [beverley_thomson]: about in years gone by you know we all believe that doctor knows best and 129 00:07:43,443 --> 00:07:48,460 [beverley_thomson]: that was something you know maybe in the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies was acceptable 130 00:07:49,610 --> 00:07:55,104 [beverley_thomson]: we're consumers of these drugs we live in a society where we do three billion 131 00:07:55,224 --> 00:07:56,207 [beverley_thomson]: google searches a 132 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:56,581 [kel]: oh 133 00:07:56,287 --> 00:08:02,001 [beverley_thomson]: day how can how can we not accept that we need to be better informed 134 00:08:02,162 --> 00:08:07,103 [beverley_thomson]: about these powerful drugs that we take how have we allowed that to happen 135 00:08:08,260 --> 00:08:11,465 [kel]: i mean it's a great question one of the things in your book that we've 136 00:08:11,605 --> 00:08:12,367 [kel]: discussed quite 137 00:08:12,283 --> 00:08:12,446 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 138 00:08:12,427 --> 00:08:16,153 [kel]: a bit is the chemical and balanced myth and in your book at one 139 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:16,364 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 140 00:08:16,253 --> 00:08:21,722 [kel]: point you you point out how psychotropic drugs work you explain how they work and 141 00:08:21,762 --> 00:08:22,103 [kel]: you state 142 00:08:21,931 --> 00:08:22,012 [beverley_thomson]: ah 143 00:08:22,143 --> 00:08:26,590 [kel]: that they actually do not cure a non existing chemical and balance rather they create 144 00:08:26,751 --> 00:08:32,461 [kel]: one which affects people mental mentally and physically many of those are unpredictable is that 145 00:08:32,521 --> 00:08:35,108 [kel]: an accurate interpretation of what i read 146 00:08:37,500 --> 00:08:39,644 [beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely i mean we now 147 00:08:39,572 --> 00:08:40,590 [kel]: yeah 148 00:08:39,744 --> 00:08:44,352 [beverley_thomson]: know that i by the way you know what we what we've heard recently was 149 00:08:44,472 --> 00:08:45,654 [beverley_thomson]: it was an excellent umbrella 150 00:08:45,709 --> 00:08:45,789 [kel]: eh 151 00:08:45,734 --> 00:08:50,422 [beverley_thomson]: study excellent study but this is not new i mean back to and somebody i 152 00:08:50,522 --> 00:08:55,210 [beverley_thomson]: love quoting you know if we go back to i think i think it was 153 00:08:55,310 --> 00:09:01,601 [beverley_thomson]: nineteen eighty eight when no i think it was nine ninety six actually that stephen 154 00:09:01,661 --> 00:09:09,044 [beverley_thomson]: hayman who was the director of the n i m h y you know he 155 00:09:09,244 --> 00:09:11,508 [beverley_thomson]: talked about these psychiatric 156 00:09:11,343 --> 00:09:11,526 [kel]: that's 157 00:09:11,608 --> 00:09:17,578 [beverley_thomson]: drugs then and you know he talked about how they are our normal new transmitter 158 00:09:17,698 --> 00:09:23,728 [beverley_thomson]: activity he talked about how they quantitively and qualatively change our brain so we've known 159 00:09:23,808 --> 00:09:28,396 [beverley_thomson]: this for a very very long time you know this isn't new we have known 160 00:09:28,536 --> 00:09:33,364 [beverley_thomson]: it and i think i wrote a paper in twenty four teen which talked about 161 00:09:33,404 --> 00:09:39,394 [beverley_thomson]: the myth of the chemical in balance and yes they don't cure our chemical and 162 00:09:39,454 --> 00:09:46,466 [beverley_thomson]: balance they alter us they change us change every aspect or have potential to change 163 00:09:46,666 --> 00:09:48,489 [beverley_thomson]: every single aspect of our being 164 00:09:50,381 --> 00:09:52,605 [kel]: let's get into the nittygrity i think a lot of people 165 00:09:52,653 --> 00:09:52,673 [beverley_thomson]: a 166 00:09:52,665 --> 00:09:57,293 [kel]: who are listening to the podcast want to know some specific details about anti depressions 167 00:09:57,513 --> 00:09:59,436 [kel]: i have a story i remember a friend 168 00:09:59,470 --> 00:09:59,490 [beverley_thomson]: m 169 00:09:59,476 --> 00:10:04,164 [kel]: of mine in college and i was in college in the late nineteen nineties um 170 00:10:04,705 --> 00:10:10,575 [kel]: was prescribed an anti depressant drug and he found himself wandering in the middle of 171 00:10:10,815 --> 00:10:16,305 [kel]: the city not knowing how he got there and we've also had on our podcast 172 00:10:17,727 --> 00:10:26,147 [kel]: a father who an experienced acathesia induced homicidal ideation so those are some 173 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:26,342 [beverley_thomson]: yep 174 00:10:26,207 --> 00:10:33,717 [kel]: of the extreme aspects of of taking a drug and impacting everybody differently but let's 175 00:10:34,018 --> 00:10:41,952 [kel]: what are the dangers of anti depressince in your research what are we actually observing 176 00:10:42,153 --> 00:10:46,728 [kel]: in both clinical practice and anything that we know from research trials 177 00:10:48,140 --> 00:10:52,647 [beverley_thomson]: okay well first two things i have to say is that nobody knows how an 178 00:10:52,808 --> 00:10:59,519 [beverley_thomson]: anti depressant will affect you so everybody can be affected in a in a unique 179 00:10:59,599 --> 00:11:02,862 [beverley_thomson]: way so there is no predictable here there are no predictable 180 00:11:02,712 --> 00:11:02,854 [kel]: yes 181 00:11:02,922 --> 00:11:07,507 [beverley_thomson]: so there's no way anybody can say okay take this anti press and this particular 182 00:11:07,314 --> 00:11:07,396 [kel]: to 183 00:11:07,587 --> 00:11:11,442 [beverley_thomson]: dose and this is what will happen to you okay it's a bit of a 184 00:11:11,502 --> 00:11:13,585 [beverley_thomson]: russian roulet in some ways you know 185 00:11:13,710 --> 00:11:13,932 [kel]: yeah 186 00:11:14,547 --> 00:11:20,156 [beverley_thomson]: some people some people manage fine and some people don't so that's that's really the 187 00:11:20,216 --> 00:11:24,302 [beverley_thomson]: first thing that i have to say the other thing that i have to say 188 00:11:24,402 --> 00:11:29,667 [beverley_thomson]: in terms of you know what we actually know about whether it be adverse effects 189 00:11:29,967 --> 00:11:34,898 [beverley_thomson]: or long term effects really mostly from anecdotal evidence 190 00:11:34,860 --> 00:11:35,102 [kel]: oh 191 00:11:36,540 --> 00:11:40,606 [beverley_thomson]: that's you know that's where we're getting the true information from you know 192 00:11:40,682 --> 00:11:41,400 [kel]: perfect 193 00:11:40,686 --> 00:11:45,394 [beverley_thomson]: these people that have been on these drugs for thirty years who are now having 194 00:11:45,555 --> 00:11:54,130 [beverley_thomson]: horrendous heart breaking experiences um and are suffering really suffering because of these drugs we 195 00:11:54,190 --> 00:11:59,258 [beverley_thomson]: don't have we need vitally need independent research and i'm sure you'll agree with me 196 00:11:59,378 --> 00:12:04,687 [beverley_thomson]: there you know that's one thing that we desperately need but we really have very 197 00:12:04,767 --> 00:12:09,402 [beverley_thomson]: little research in terms of what is happening to people but we know some of 198 00:12:09,482 --> 00:12:16,576 [beverley_thomson]: the effects effects can be incredibly varied but they can be serious life changing life 199 00:12:16,776 --> 00:12:18,798 [beverley_thomson]: altering and sometimes fatal 200 00:12:20,881 --> 00:12:24,309 [kel]: i think what's most concerning to me is how 201 00:12:24,580 --> 00:12:25,780 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 202 00:12:24,629 --> 00:12:31,441 [kel]: physicians communicate them to patients and families as if they're rather benign um there's 203 00:12:31,511 --> 00:12:31,673 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 204 00:12:31,643 --> 00:12:37,467 [kel]: there's no we don't talk about dependents and they think they speak with their clients 205 00:12:37,687 --> 00:12:44,398 [kel]: mostly in terms of the potential benefits and really minimize any potential risk in fact 206 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:50,457 [kel]: almost speaking as if those risks are quite rare and quite mild 207 00:12:50,671 --> 00:12:50,793 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 208 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:51,720 [kel]: and 209 00:12:52,030 --> 00:12:52,192 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 210 00:12:52,301 --> 00:12:56,368 [kel]: beverley i'm assuming that the reason they speak about the drugs in this way is 211 00:12:56,448 --> 00:13:02,419 [kel]: because that's what's communicated to them through pharmasutical marketers is that your impression as well 212 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:10,569 [beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely and i think even though most doctors are beginning to realize that a 213 00:13:10,649 --> 00:13:16,699 [beverley_thomson]: lot of the the a lot of the adverse effects that patients come back to 214 00:13:16,759 --> 00:13:23,791 [beverley_thomson]: them tell them about because of the drugs that they still don't inform patients as 215 00:13:23,891 --> 00:13:29,380 [beverley_thomson]: they should about the adverse effects shall i read the john reed studying twenty team 216 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:35,290 [beverley_thomson]: because that might be yea so there was a twenty eight ten study which i 217 00:13:35,410 --> 00:13:41,020 [beverley_thomson]: have in my book and asking people directly reveals far higher rates of adverse respond 218 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:50,970 [beverley_thomson]: sister antiantipressence than previously understood especially in the emotional psychological and in personal domains so 219 00:13:51,190 --> 00:13:55,876 [beverley_thomson]: this on nine survey looked at one thousand and four hundred and thirty one people 220 00:13:56,036 --> 00:14:02,204 [beverley_thomson]: in thirty eight countries so when when you listen to these statistics i mean this 221 00:14:02,585 --> 00:14:09,957 [beverley_thomson]: just really really tells you about how serious some of these effects are so feeling 222 00:14:10,017 --> 00:14:18,632 [beverley_thomson]: emotionally numb seventy point six per cent feeling foggy or detached seventy percent feeling not 223 00:14:18,712 --> 00:14:27,435 [beverley_thomson]: like myself sixty six per cent sexual difficulties sixty six per cent drowsy sixty two 224 00:14:27,576 --> 00:14:36,027 [beverley_thomson]: percent reduction in positive feelings sixty point four per cent you know distorted dreams fifty 225 00:14:36,107 --> 00:14:44,183 [beverley_thomson]: nine percent umsuicideality fifty point three percent half the people who in the in this 226 00:14:44,625 --> 00:14:51,743 [beverley_thomson]: survey said that they had some form of suicideality i mean this is crazy isn't 227 00:14:51,824 --> 00:14:51,865 [beverley_thomson]: it 228 00:14:52,010 --> 00:14:55,976 [kel]: it is crazy and i mean i've mentioned this i actually had gone to a 229 00:14:56,036 --> 00:14:58,801 [kel]: doctor young when i was young and i was 230 00:14:58,960 --> 00:14:59,207 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 231 00:14:59,863 --> 00:15:01,546 [kel]: i was diagnosed within fifteen minutes 232 00:15:02,230 --> 00:15:02,592 [beverley_thomson]: oh 233 00:15:02,267 --> 00:15:07,255 [kel]: and i remember now we were asking well are there my mom was with me 234 00:15:07,395 --> 00:15:11,382 [kel]: and she asked is this something that it will have to be on for the 235 00:15:11,402 --> 00:15:16,491 [kel]: rest of his life is it okay he was it was very dismissive verybody's doing 236 00:15:16,732 --> 00:15:18,678 [kel]: it's okay it's kind of like you 237 00:15:18,692 --> 00:15:18,773 [beverley_thomson]: oh 238 00:15:18,738 --> 00:15:19,380 [kel]: know it'll 239 00:15:19,330 --> 00:15:19,617 [beverley_thomson]: oh 240 00:15:19,420 --> 00:15:24,791 [kel]: be fine there were no we were not given any type of chance to just 241 00:15:24,871 --> 00:15:25,031 [kel]: think 242 00:15:24,940 --> 00:15:25,224 [beverley_thomson]: oh 243 00:15:25,091 --> 00:15:29,338 [kel]: about it or go home take a month or two and you know if things 244 00:15:29,399 --> 00:15:33,305 [kel]: don't get better we were just told this is your solution here you go i 245 00:15:33,345 --> 00:15:34,126 [kel]: was fortunate 246 00:15:34,620 --> 00:15:35,260 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 247 00:15:34,727 --> 00:15:38,452 [kel]: to not you know to not stay on it i was on for a very 248 00:15:38,492 --> 00:15:41,055 [kel]: short period of time but in that short period of time i can tell you 249 00:15:41,195 --> 00:15:43,638 [kel]: i experienced several of what you just said 250 00:15:45,550 --> 00:15:49,856 [beverley_thomson]: absolutely that is you know that is so typical 251 00:15:49,530 --> 00:15:49,715 [kel]: oh 252 00:15:50,016 --> 00:15:59,260 [beverley_thomson]: because it's not until things start to go wrong that people start to question why 253 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:04,185 [beverley_thomson]: do we wait until it's too late and things start to go wrong and we 254 00:16:04,325 --> 00:16:08,009 [beverley_thomson]: start to have these adverse effects that we start to question the drugs 255 00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:08,820 [kel]: yeah 256 00:16:08,730 --> 00:16:12,201 [beverley_thomson]: should we be questioning them from the beginning before 257 00:16:12,500 --> 00:16:13,083 [kel]: there's no doubt 258 00:16:13,204 --> 00:16:14,288 [beverley_thomson]: we even take them 259 00:16:14,730 --> 00:16:20,179 [kel]: yeah in the united states here and and we're we're working with parents who have 260 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:27,290 [kel]: kids who are struggling with depression anxiety and self injury or suicidal thoughts and one 261 00:16:27,351 --> 00:16:30,896 [kel]: of the feedback that we're getting from parents is that 262 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:31,206 [beverley_thomson]: oh 263 00:16:31,317 --> 00:16:37,027 [kel]: they feel almost guilted into the prescription from prescribers as if 264 00:16:37,281 --> 00:16:37,425 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 265 00:16:37,548 --> 00:16:44,343 [kel]: it is there front line treatment and the most effective treatment for developing teen agers 266 00:16:44,724 --> 00:16:51,598 [kel]: and and young adults universally parents are kind of saying they make us feel like 267 00:16:51,719 --> 00:16:57,573 [kel]: we're a bad parent if we do not follow medical advice but yet you're 268 00:16:57,752 --> 00:16:57,896 [beverley_thomson]: yep 269 00:16:57,894 --> 00:17:02,181 [kel]: you have a chapter special chapter on this for young people and it is so 270 00:17:02,361 --> 00:17:07,750 [kel]: clear and i've done my obsessive research as well that we don't have really any 271 00:17:07,990 --> 00:17:14,670 [kel]: data that suggests that these psychiatric drugs these s s r is have any positive 272 00:17:14,831 --> 00:17:22,554 [kel]: impact and almost overwhelming evidence that suggests that they can and will create harm 273 00:17:24,090 --> 00:17:30,046 [beverley_thomson]: absolutely absolutely and i think the thing that we have to think about especially with 274 00:17:31,421 --> 00:17:38,826 [beverley_thomson]: child now with children is it's moral issue isn't it we have already said that 275 00:17:39,007 --> 00:17:46,944 [beverley_thomson]: these these drugs change your brain change the structure of your brain who has the 276 00:17:47,004 --> 00:17:53,047 [beverley_thomson]: right to do that to their child who has the right to change their child's 277 00:17:53,167 --> 00:17:53,468 [beverley_thomson]: brain 278 00:17:56,721 --> 00:18:04,580 [kel]: yeah yeah i don't i don't understand that i guess i agree with with roger 279 00:18:05,100 --> 00:18:08,706 [kel]: i think based off of the experience that i had it's almost as if a 280 00:18:08,787 --> 00:18:14,406 [kel]: parent may not be able have enough stand up for themselves at the very moment 281 00:18:14,446 --> 00:18:17,334 [kel]: that they are told this is the only solution and i think that 282 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:17,681 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 283 00:18:18,297 --> 00:18:18,698 [kel]: yeah go ahead 284 00:18:18,692 --> 00:18:22,073 [beverley_thomson]: yeah sorry and i was if you think about 285 00:18:22,136 --> 00:18:22,156 [kel]: i 286 00:18:22,153 --> 00:18:22,514 [beverley_thomson]: it from 287 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:22,890 [kel]: don't 288 00:18:22,674 --> 00:18:29,025 [beverley_thomson]: from a cultural perspective they've already parents have already brought into this idea that you 289 00:18:29,085 --> 00:18:32,350 [beverley_thomson]: know here's a drug and the drug will fix you so 290 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:33,300 [kel]: oh 291 00:18:32,631 --> 00:18:36,421 [beverley_thomson]: it's the first thing that they're going to do they haven't questioned it for themselves 292 00:18:36,862 --> 00:18:38,366 [beverley_thomson]: so why are they going to question it for 293 00:18:38,340 --> 00:18:38,360 [kel]: m 294 00:18:38,386 --> 00:18:38,928 [beverley_thomson]: their child 295 00:18:39,702 --> 00:18:43,609 [kel]: so beverly one of the the areas and i think we're touching on the fact 296 00:18:43,649 --> 00:18:47,575 [kel]: that a lot of parents just don't understand right they trust their doctors in terms 297 00:18:47,655 --> 00:18:50,660 [kel]: of the research that you've done in some of the resource you provided um in 298 00:18:50,700 --> 00:18:52,042 [kel]: the back of your book what 299 00:18:51,991 --> 00:18:52,132 [beverley_thomson]: yes 300 00:18:52,342 --> 00:18:56,848 [kel]: are what do you feel is the most appropriate place to send a parent who 301 00:18:56,948 --> 00:19:02,156 [kel]: at this point might be considering or it's maybe being forced upon them where they 302 00:19:02,196 --> 00:19:08,547 [kel]: can go and really just get a nonjudgemental view of what others are seeing out 303 00:19:08,587 --> 00:19:09,849 [kel]: there that they can read themselves 304 00:19:11,530 --> 00:19:12,652 [beverley_thomson]: yeah it's difficult isn't 305 00:19:12,752 --> 00:19:12,894 [kel]: yes 306 00:19:12,752 --> 00:19:12,812 [beverley_thomson]: it 307 00:19:12,975 --> 00:19:13,199 [kel]: it is 308 00:19:13,634 --> 00:19:18,602 [beverley_thomson]: it's really difficult because we have to one of the things that we have to 309 00:19:18,762 --> 00:19:19,022 [beverley_thomson]: take 310 00:19:18,852 --> 00:19:19,320 [kel]: oh 311 00:19:19,303 --> 00:19:25,814 [beverley_thomson]: into account is for you it's even more difficult because you have farmer advertising on 312 00:19:25,854 --> 00:19:26,976 [beverley_thomson]: your t v screen 313 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:26,780 [kel]: m 314 00:19:27,477 --> 00:19:28,258 [beverley_thomson]: every how 315 00:19:28,209 --> 00:19:28,230 [kel]: m 316 00:19:28,318 --> 00:19:35,149 [beverley_thomson]: many seconds of the day but you know it's really hard to find information that 317 00:19:35,430 --> 00:19:42,361 [beverley_thomson]: a reliable information you can trust without being biassed because everyone who they will meet 318 00:19:42,421 --> 00:19:47,470 [beverley_thomson]: whether it being an educational environment whether it be you know their friends whether well 319 00:19:47,630 --> 00:19:52,358 [beverley_thomson]: have already brought into this notion so you know what roger and i are trying 320 00:19:52,418 --> 00:19:56,605 [beverley_thomson]: to do and we're trying to change this concept were trying to change but this 321 00:19:56,805 --> 00:20:02,675 [beverley_thomson]: is not easy this is not easy and and i hope that my book which 322 00:20:02,836 --> 00:20:07,083 [beverley_thomson]: i did try to write an accessible way and i didn't try i didn't use 323 00:20:07,583 --> 00:20:13,312 [beverley_thomson]: medical language or academic language so i really it will be you know a starting 324 00:20:13,432 --> 00:20:13,873 [beverley_thomson]: point and 325 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:14,382 [kel]: yeah 326 00:20:14,373 --> 00:20:16,916 [beverley_thomson]: other people will write similar books to 327 00:20:16,803 --> 00:20:17,370 [kel]: hm 328 00:20:17,116 --> 00:20:23,615 [beverley_thomson]: that that can really help people yeah i'm hoping that education will be a place 329 00:20:23,695 --> 00:20:28,242 [beverley_thomson]: where we really start to see see this changing but you know i'm in the 330 00:20:28,303 --> 00:20:33,171 [beverley_thomson]: highlands of scotland and i think it's very different where you are you know we're 331 00:20:33,231 --> 00:20:39,141 [beverley_thomson]: bombarded with messages aren't we on social media in the media about our mental health 332 00:20:39,661 --> 00:20:44,129 [beverley_thomson]: about deserving parity with our physical health and you have a right to take a 333 00:20:44,189 --> 00:20:45,139 [beverley_thomson]: drug you want to 334 00:20:46,129 --> 00:20:46,291 [kel]: yeah 335 00:20:46,580 --> 00:20:47,633 [beverley_thomson]: how we're going to change it 336 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:48,220 [kel]: that's 337 00:20:48,420 --> 00:20:50,165 [beverley_thomson]: we're going to try i'm going to try 338 00:20:50,327 --> 00:20:50,408 [kel]: it 339 00:20:50,486 --> 00:20:50,646 [beverley_thomson]: but 340 00:20:51,340 --> 00:20:56,906 [kel]: and getting conversations like this out is one step but you're right there's an enormous 341 00:20:57,126 --> 00:21:03,754 [kel]: amount of advertising especially for all these new um absolutions where someone could immediately go 342 00:21:03,995 --> 00:21:09,473 [kel]: and answer a few questions and get access to an anti depressing medication through the 343 00:21:09,553 --> 00:21:10,374 [kel]: mail is 344 00:21:10,420 --> 00:21:10,461 [beverley_thomson]: m 345 00:21:10,635 --> 00:21:14,822 [kel]: to me i interpreted as if the medical community and a lot of doctors are 346 00:21:14,902 --> 00:21:19,389 [kel]: becoming more aware of the long term effects and the side effects and the harm 347 00:21:19,490 --> 00:21:24,338 [kel]: it's being done that one way to get around that is to remove the doctors 348 00:21:24,378 --> 00:21:27,443 [kel]: from the process and just go direct to consumer which is 349 00:21:28,101 --> 00:21:28,245 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 350 00:21:28,505 --> 00:21:31,996 [kel]: to me i'm going to be a whole another level of aware is that needs 351 00:21:32,037 --> 00:21:32,623 [kel]: to get out there 352 00:21:32,690 --> 00:21:37,334 [beverley_thomson]: yeah i think i think one of the problems in terms of children that i 353 00:21:37,594 --> 00:21:42,873 [beverley_thomson]: really really i'm so worried about is you know a lot of children are now 354 00:21:42,953 --> 00:21:48,060 [beverley_thomson]: put on these drugs at such a young age and when they become adults they're 355 00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:54,502 [beverley_thomson]: already dependent on these drugs and if they don't have the knowledge about these drugs 356 00:21:54,582 --> 00:22:00,115 [beverley_thomson]: and the information that they shouldn't stop these drugs suddenly or you know they need 357 00:22:00,175 --> 00:22:04,792 [beverley_thomson]: to be informed about the harms that they can do we are seeing and i 358 00:22:04,893 --> 00:22:09,100 [beverley_thomson]: haven't the you now the evidence of it we're seeing the suicide rates for example 359 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:16,181 [beverley_thomson]: in university is rocket and that's because the kids on these drugs o move away 360 00:22:16,241 --> 00:22:22,495 [beverley_thomson]: from the security of their parents the usual prescribe the they go away to university 361 00:22:22,555 --> 00:22:26,033 [beverley_thomson]: they go i don't need this drug they stopped taking it 362 00:22:27,615 --> 00:22:27,776 [kel]: yeah 363 00:22:28,190 --> 00:22:29,021 [beverley_thomson]: this is dangerous 364 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,764 [kel]: yea this is a good direction to get into because we are seeing these increasing 365 00:22:33,844 --> 00:22:41,784 [kel]: rates of suicide events and many people are attributing that to a need for mental 366 00:22:41,844 --> 00:22:42,926 [kel]: health intervention which 367 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:43,480 [beverley_thomson]: oh 368 00:22:43,126 --> 00:22:51,500 [kel]: is more psychometric drugs and there they're unknowingly um you know making comments that you 369 00:22:51,540 --> 00:22:55,968 [kel]: know when one stops their drug it is as there is evidence that that mental 370 00:22:56,028 --> 00:23:00,315 [kel]: health condition is returning that depression is returning what do we expect to happen if 371 00:23:00,355 --> 00:23:04,627 [kel]: somebody abruptly stops taking psychiatric gs that they were prescribed 372 00:23:06,190 --> 00:23:13,419 [beverley_thomson]: yeah no one should ever abruptly stop taking psychiatric drugs unless it's on the advice 373 00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:17,867 [beverley_thomson]: of a g p and there is specific reason for it but so if we 374 00:23:18,207 --> 00:23:24,275 [beverley_thomson]: look at what happened when we take these drugs so we have a normal normal 375 00:23:24,376 --> 00:23:28,288 [beverley_thomson]: balance state without the drug as soon as we start to take the drug 376 00:23:31,373 --> 00:23:36,598 [beverley_thomson]: as we've said these drugs act on our brain chemistry and our normal state is 377 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:42,348 [beverley_thomson]: becomes different so eventually if we take this drug to a period of time we 378 00:23:42,448 --> 00:23:47,256 [beverley_thomson]: achieve a new balance state okay might not be a great balance state it might 379 00:23:47,296 --> 00:23:52,451 [beverley_thomson]: be one with adverse effects it might be we achieve a new balance state so 380 00:23:52,551 --> 00:23:56,922 [beverley_thomson]: as soon as you reduce or stop taking these drugs especially if you do it 381 00:23:57,142 --> 00:24:07,293 [beverley_thomson]: abruptly this balance tate becomes very unbalanced and that can be psychologically and it can 382 00:24:07,373 --> 00:24:08,635 [beverley_thomson]: be physiologically as well 383 00:24:08,621 --> 00:24:08,742 [kel]: is 384 00:24:09,576 --> 00:24:09,717 [beverley_thomson]: so 385 00:24:09,835 --> 00:24:09,856 [kel]: i 386 00:24:10,237 --> 00:24:17,729 [beverley_thomson]: this is why we have such increasing cases of acesier because people are stopping these 387 00:24:17,829 --> 00:24:25,061 [beverley_thomson]: drugs so suddenly and becoming so unbalanced and this is really really incredibly anjerous and 388 00:24:25,121 --> 00:24:29,767 [beverley_thomson]: it's something that i think acesier is the one thing that in particular we need 389 00:24:29,847 --> 00:24:31,109 [beverley_thomson]: more people to understand 390 00:24:31,070 --> 00:24:33,312 [kel]: i was going to ask you can you discuss a little it because in your 391 00:24:33,332 --> 00:24:36,695 [kel]: book you have you have a pretty big section of it and then you also 392 00:24:36,795 --> 00:24:40,319 [kel]: describe the there are four types can you tell us a little bit about that 393 00:24:41,940 --> 00:24:48,185 [beverley_thomson]: yeah so acts is a neurological drug induced condition and it's not just antprescente there 394 00:24:48,265 --> 00:24:55,274 [beverley_thomson]: are other drugs that can induce this state so i think i describe it and 395 00:24:55,414 --> 00:25:00,147 [beverley_thomson]: a lot of people have said to me we jokingly say sometimes i'm losing my 396 00:25:00,227 --> 00:25:09,105 [beverley_thomson]: mind these people literally lose their mind and they lose control of their mind so 397 00:25:09,205 --> 00:25:18,888 [beverley_thomson]: they have constant intrusive thoughts it's really interesting and really quite heartbreaking that most of 398 00:25:18,928 --> 00:25:23,035 [beverley_thomson]: these thoughts that these people have really funny though isn't it they don't have happy 399 00:25:23,115 --> 00:25:26,646 [beverley_thomson]: thoughts they don't go and line the beach to have it's lying on the beach 400 00:25:26,746 --> 00:25:36,140 [beverley_thomson]: somewhere or you know going to their favorite restaurant or they have thoughts of most 401 00:25:36,541 --> 00:25:41,875 [beverley_thomson]: two common ones are there have sorts of killing themselves they have thoughts of killing 402 00:25:41,995 --> 00:25:42,457 [beverley_thomson]: someone else 403 00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:43,370 [kel]: m 404 00:25:45,650 --> 00:25:51,575 [beverley_thomson]: and those acts those are the two most constant and people 405 00:25:51,553 --> 00:25:51,718 [kel]: yeah 406 00:25:51,655 --> 00:25:58,815 [beverley_thomson]: end up killing themselves when they have acathesia there are two different ways so the 407 00:25:58,855 --> 00:26:09,854 [beverley_thomson]: first is they have such such incredibly awful symptoms that be restless restlessness or agitation 408 00:26:10,014 --> 00:26:15,511 [beverley_thomson]: or pain or that they literally can't stand them any more and they choose to 409 00:26:15,551 --> 00:26:20,961 [beverley_thomson]: kill themselves and the second one is it's not so much that they choose to 410 00:26:21,001 --> 00:26:28,874 [beverley_thomson]: kill themselves actually fight to stay alive but these intrusive voices these intrusive voices get 411 00:26:28,934 --> 00:26:33,843 [beverley_thomson]: to the point where they actually give in the voice is that i to the 412 00:26:33,883 --> 00:26:36,308 [beverley_thomson]: voice that is telling them to kill themselves 413 00:26:38,210 --> 00:26:41,756 [kel]: and i think the challenge especially with young people is there not always the most 414 00:26:41,937 --> 00:26:46,805 [kel]: disciplined of people so it's very easy to miss a dose or if you're at 415 00:26:46,925 --> 00:26:52,661 [kel]: university and you start you know eating or drinking alcohol or you have some sleep 416 00:26:52,742 --> 00:27:00,181 [kel]: disruption there's we see then that those severe adverse consequences can occur and younger people 417 00:27:00,241 --> 00:27:04,727 [kel]: like high school students and i hear this quite frequently if they if they miss 418 00:27:04,787 --> 00:27:09,265 [kel]: a dose or you know they've been they've been ill or sick and they stopped 419 00:27:09,325 --> 00:27:14,221 [kel]: taking it for a couple of days reaction to those drugs it can be so 420 00:27:14,382 --> 00:27:15,627 [kel]: severe that 421 00:27:16,290 --> 00:27:16,414 [beverley_thomson]: yep 422 00:27:17,251 --> 00:27:23,160 [kel]: their parents actually believe that that is evidence of a chemical and balance that requires 423 00:27:23,220 --> 00:27:30,054 [kel]: the drug for for life and they do not understand that the drug self or 424 00:27:30,174 --> 00:27:30,696 [kel]: the withdrawal 425 00:27:30,570 --> 00:27:31,054 [beverley_thomson]: as caused 426 00:27:30,776 --> 00:27:31,177 [kel]: effect of 427 00:27:31,155 --> 00:27:31,215 [beverley_thomson]: it 428 00:27:31,217 --> 00:27:34,086 [kel]: that drug creates those exact symptoms i wanted to bring up 429 00:27:35,301 --> 00:27:35,465 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 430 00:27:36,111 --> 00:27:40,498 [kel]: the tad's study because it is front line care here in the united states that 431 00:27:40,718 --> 00:27:45,847 [kel]: when a teenager is experiencing suicidal idiation hand that could just be thoughts or it 432 00:27:45,907 --> 00:27:50,916 [kel]: could be self injury and they are admitted into a psychiatric hospital or they're in 433 00:27:50,996 --> 00:27:57,023 [kel]: some form of out patient treatment it is believed that in anti depression should be 434 00:27:57,063 --> 00:28:00,427 [kel]: a front line treatment for such a condition what does the science and what does 435 00:28:00,487 --> 00:28:02,409 [kel]: our research say you talked about the tad's study 436 00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:07,998 [beverley_thomson]: oh i can't even this is really you got cut me off guard here i 437 00:28:08,058 --> 00:28:12,166 [beverley_thomson]: should i should actually know this but i think that the thing that we can 438 00:28:12,246 --> 00:28:22,031 [beverley_thomson]: take from it is that real life patients as opposed to the research participants the 439 00:28:22,131 --> 00:28:27,856 [beverley_thomson]: adverse effects were much more frequent much more serious and much more long lasting than 440 00:28:28,076 --> 00:28:29,818 [beverley_thomson]: they were in the research 441 00:28:31,980 --> 00:28:32,361 [kel]: yeah i do 442 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:32,804 [beverley_thomson]: patients 443 00:28:32,641 --> 00:28:35,206 [kel]: i have some data on this i just pulled it up to so you go 444 00:28:35,226 --> 00:28:37,009 [kel]: ahead watch twenty two percent of 445 00:28:36,965 --> 00:28:37,480 [beverley_thomson]: hm 446 00:28:37,229 --> 00:28:41,716 [kel]: adolescence on an s s or i had a suicide event compared to six point 447 00:28:41,857 --> 00:28:42,638 [kel]: seven percent 448 00:28:42,610 --> 00:28:42,978 [beverley_thomson]: oh 449 00:28:42,818 --> 00:28:45,213 [kel]: of those not taking drug 450 00:28:45,900 --> 00:28:46,041 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 451 00:28:46,020 --> 00:28:46,661 [kel]: we also know 452 00:28:46,624 --> 00:28:46,745 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 453 00:28:46,821 --> 00:28:52,410 [kel]: in short term farm clinical trials um teams on the drugs were more than twice 454 00:28:52,510 --> 00:28:54,554 [kel]: as likely to become suicidal 455 00:28:54,321 --> 00:28:54,445 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 456 00:28:54,774 --> 00:28:57,138 [kel]: compared to placebo so here we are 457 00:28:57,180 --> 00:28:57,304 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 458 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,867 [kel]: we actually see in clinical practice that doctors are prescribing a drug that's going to 459 00:29:03,988 --> 00:29:09,317 [kel]: increase suicideality and at this point isn't it can we just say that evidence based 460 00:29:09,457 --> 00:29:12,273 [kel]: mental health care is just a yeah 461 00:29:12,850 --> 00:29:18,820 [beverley_thomson]: it's an absolute miss an absolute miss and you know everyone i say everyone and 462 00:29:18,860 --> 00:29:22,345 [beverley_thomson]: that's a big statement but just about everyone who ends up in some kind of 463 00:29:22,446 --> 00:29:27,178 [beverley_thomson]: clinic setting for their mental health will be prescribed more drugs 464 00:29:28,170 --> 00:29:28,397 [kel]: oh 465 00:29:28,460 --> 00:29:32,583 [beverley_thomson]: it goes without saying there are never solutions that don't involve 466 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:32,883 [kel]: yes 467 00:29:32,703 --> 00:29:36,427 [beverley_thomson]: drugs or very rarely solutions that don't involve drugs 468 00:29:36,630 --> 00:29:37,500 [kel]: oh 469 00:29:37,468 --> 00:29:38,709 [beverley_thomson]: and that's so sad isn't it 470 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,788 [kel]: it's very sad in your opinion should children are adolescence um be prescribed anti to 471 00:29:43,848 --> 00:29:47,154 [kel]: presence in any circumstances i mean we do have to shiat the conversation to any 472 00:29:47,234 --> 00:29:53,423 [kel]: perceived benefits but in your opinion is there any situation where young people should be 473 00:29:53,483 --> 00:29:54,427 [kel]: taking and into presence 474 00:29:55,700 --> 00:30:00,167 [beverley_thomson]: well i can i think i can only speak about that from my my personal 475 00:30:00,347 --> 00:30:09,066 [beverley_thomson]: view as a mother would i give my child anti presence never never 476 00:30:10,121 --> 00:30:12,030 [kel]: yeah 477 00:30:10,850 --> 00:30:15,878 [beverley_thomson]: no and i suppose you know you can think about it from the perspective that 478 00:30:16,239 --> 00:30:19,464 [beverley_thomson]: you know i know a lot more about these drugs than most people and i've 479 00:30:19,504 --> 00:30:24,757 [beverley_thomson]: heard a lot more know experiences of young people who taken these drugs but would 480 00:30:24,857 --> 00:30:27,647 [beverley_thomson]: i give my child antitepressance never 481 00:30:29,281 --> 00:30:33,286 [kel]: beverly i feel obligated to ask had you not done this research and written this 482 00:30:33,386 --> 00:30:39,857 [kel]: book and grew interested in the subject and so and your child was struggling would 483 00:30:39,917 --> 00:30:42,745 [kel]: your approach have been the same or do you feel like you're just more aware 484 00:30:42,885 --> 00:30:43,868 [kel]: and more knowledgeable now 485 00:30:45,294 --> 00:30:49,301 [beverley_thomson]: yes i think i don't 486 00:30:49,159 --> 00:30:49,260 [kel]: eh 487 00:30:49,341 --> 00:30:51,924 [beverley_thomson]: think i would have ever medicated my child to be honest 488 00:30:51,941 --> 00:30:52,143 [kel]: okay 489 00:30:53,065 --> 00:30:59,605 [beverley_thomson]: i have always been my personal approach as i have always taught my child speak 490 00:31:00,951 --> 00:31:07,775 [beverley_thomson]: talk about what's going wrong to make help him understand that life changes very quickly 491 00:31:07,895 --> 00:31:13,124 [beverley_thomson]: especially for young people and what is happening you know this week might have changed 492 00:31:13,204 --> 00:31:17,918 [beverley_thomson]: in a month's time and normally things move very quick so i don't think i 493 00:31:18,019 --> 00:31:19,246 [beverley_thomson]: would have to be honest 494 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:28,922 [kel]: okay joanna moncreefe spoke about the perceived benefits of anti depressant use and she blogged 495 00:31:28,982 --> 00:31:35,054 [kel]: about it i think the primary one is is optimism or hope so it's the 496 00:31:35,215 --> 00:31:42,452 [kel]: idea that taking a drug in itself if you are really suffering can provide that 497 00:31:42,553 --> 00:31:48,420 [kel]: placebo response and i think the second one that she generally speaks about is the 498 00:31:48,481 --> 00:31:55,547 [kel]: emotional numbing or blunting of the drug can for a small percentage of people be 499 00:31:55,647 --> 00:32:03,918 [kel]: interpreted as something that is actually believing or positive and so i just imagine that 500 00:32:03,938 --> 00:32:09,783 [kel]: there are some people who are in such intense negative pain some form of emotional 501 00:32:09,883 --> 00:32:12,708 [kel]: blunting might be interpreted as helpful 502 00:32:14,623 --> 00:32:15,130 [beverley_thomson]: hm 503 00:32:15,060 --> 00:32:18,666 [kel]: but but then again when we look at the adverse consequences the question is always 504 00:32:18,866 --> 00:32:22,172 [kel]: for how long because the brain is going to eventually adapt as you well said 505 00:32:22,753 --> 00:32:27,163 [kel]: and then what are the you know the potential long term effects of such a 506 00:32:27,223 --> 00:32:27,565 [kel]: decision 507 00:32:28,820 --> 00:32:34,742 [beverley_thomson]: yeah well first of all you know i never say i never said that people 508 00:32:34,842 --> 00:32:38,889 [beverley_thomson]: shouldn't take these drugs it's everyone's right to take these drugs if they choose to 509 00:32:38,969 --> 00:32:43,516 [beverley_thomson]: that is entirely up to them but what i do so say is everybody should 510 00:32:43,597 --> 00:32:50,966 [beverley_thomson]: be informed about these drugs slightly different okay let's address one one well we'll address 511 00:32:51,006 --> 00:32:56,555 [beverley_thomson]: the placebo effect first you know i suppose the question is you know is is 512 00:32:56,836 --> 00:33:04,650 [beverley_thomson]: the placebo effect is that justification for taking powerful psycho active drugs my opinion probably 513 00:33:04,711 --> 00:33:09,977 [beverley_thomson]: not um these powerful drugs also if you think about it an no 514 00:33:09,931 --> 00:33:10,053 [kel]: don't 515 00:33:10,097 --> 00:33:15,466 [beverley_thomson]: one knows how long it takes for somebody to become dependent on these drugs so 516 00:33:15,666 --> 00:33:21,116 [beverley_thomson]: if you choose to take these because as have a numbing effect and might help 517 00:33:21,237 --> 00:33:27,172 [beverley_thomson]: you in a few months you know over a few months or again is it 518 00:33:27,252 --> 00:33:32,461 [beverley_thomson]: worth the risk i don't think it is personally to be honest you know i 519 00:33:32,561 --> 00:33:37,690 [beverley_thomson]: had an interesting conversation with nick for tino recently about this and you know that 520 00:33:37,830 --> 00:33:43,760 [beverley_thomson]: lots of other things that we can do to help ourselves through very difficult times 521 00:33:44,284 --> 00:33:44,304 [kel]: a 522 00:33:44,601 --> 00:33:50,903 [beverley_thomson]: and to me taking pychotropic psycho active powerful drugs it's not the answer 523 00:33:52,461 --> 00:33:56,648 [kel]: so you're a huge proponent of people giving themselves a lot of time to heal 524 00:33:57,009 --> 00:34:01,416 [kel]: naturally and for that to happen they would need to alter some of their life 525 00:34:01,536 --> 00:34:07,065 [kel]: activities as a char in this kind of system that we have at least in 526 00:34:07,105 --> 00:34:10,451 [kel]: the u s a lot of a lot of students over the course of years 527 00:34:10,731 --> 00:34:14,838 [kel]: i've seen go through they've gotten their diagnoses they've gone on medication parents have then 528 00:34:15,720 --> 00:34:18,769 [kel]: um when the medication either didn't work or they started to see those kind of 529 00:34:18,849 --> 00:34:22,971 [kel]: side effects then they went into another medication and so on and i feel like 530 00:34:23,232 --> 00:34:26,521 [kel]: just i was when i was reading your book i'm like you know if you 531 00:34:26,641 --> 00:34:30,167 [kel]: allow people time to heal they're going to have to make some changes in their 532 00:34:30,227 --> 00:34:35,155 [kel]: lives and then young kids and students high school student in particular they don't have 533 00:34:35,195 --> 00:34:38,821 [kel]: the capability to make changes because the system doesn't allow to make any changes 534 00:34:38,950 --> 00:34:39,092 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 535 00:34:39,222 --> 00:34:39,963 [kel]: so they struggle 536 00:34:40,382 --> 00:34:40,526 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 537 00:34:40,584 --> 00:34:45,412 [kel]: and have to enter that same environment day after day and it's extremely difficult for 538 00:34:45,432 --> 00:34:49,699 [kel]: them to make any real change that could actually help them mentally what do you 539 00:34:49,759 --> 00:34:54,972 [kel]: say o those parents whose those students who believe they've exhausted the weight and and 540 00:34:55,032 --> 00:34:57,538 [kel]: then they're like this is the only thing we can do is turn to medication 541 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,267 [beverley_thomson]: well first of all i'm not a psychologist so you know i can't give advice 542 00:35:03,307 --> 00:35:04,369 [beverley_thomson]: as to what what 543 00:35:04,380 --> 00:35:06,000 [kel]: yeah 544 00:35:04,449 --> 00:35:08,596 [beverley_thomson]: i personally think that that should they should do but you know e's study in 545 00:35:08,656 --> 00:35:08,756 [beverley_thomson]: my 546 00:35:08,660 --> 00:35:08,740 [kel]: and 547 00:35:08,836 --> 00:35:13,304 [beverley_thomson]: book i think it was two thousand six brand verse to that looked at the 548 00:35:13,344 --> 00:35:18,673 [beverley_thomson]: fact that you know eighty five per cent of people recover who have a depressive 549 00:35:18,753 --> 00:35:26,185 [beverley_thomson]: episode recover within one year without any treatment whatsoever so i think for children yes 550 00:35:26,266 --> 00:35:31,996 [beverley_thomson]: it is more difficult because the social circumstances that they find themselves are tough it's 551 00:35:32,116 --> 00:35:33,699 [beverley_thomson]: tough for kids nowadays isn't it 552 00:35:33,747 --> 00:35:34,373 [kel]: oh absolutely 553 00:35:34,420 --> 00:35:38,767 [beverley_thomson]: it's not easy it's tough you know there is no getting away from it but 554 00:35:38,807 --> 00:35:44,336 [beverley_thomson]: it was like we were talking about before unless the system changes then how are 555 00:35:44,396 --> 00:35:45,358 [beverley_thomson]: we going to help these kids 556 00:35:46,772 --> 00:35:52,762 [kel]: haven't we altered our understanding of what depression is if you look historically 557 00:35:52,729 --> 00:35:52,750 [beverley_thomson]: m 558 00:35:53,623 --> 00:36:01,918 [kel]: depression as as a really severe impairing condition was quite rare and in actuality almost 559 00:36:02,690 --> 00:36:08,940 [kel]: everybody is going to go through something in their lifetime in some episode but now 560 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:16,212 [kel]: we're describing the normal ranges of adversity as a met al illness and really it's 561 00:36:16,252 --> 00:36:16,413 [kel]: kind 562 00:36:16,380 --> 00:36:16,525 [beverley_thomson]: yep 563 00:36:16,453 --> 00:36:22,523 [kel]: of industry driven and it's it's media driven hasn't that altered the way that we 564 00:36:22,823 --> 00:36:26,049 [kel]: we think about our own struggles over the normal course of a lifetime 565 00:36:28,070 --> 00:36:32,600 [beverley_thomson]: absolutely well we only have to listen to children and young people when they talk 566 00:36:32,741 --> 00:36:37,511 [beverley_thomson]: on t v and the language that they now use and if you listen to 567 00:36:37,611 --> 00:36:43,140 [beverley_thomson]: children talking on t v how often do they use the word anxiety i'm anxious 568 00:36:43,882 --> 00:36:47,868 [beverley_thomson]: how often do they use the word i think i'm depressed i think i had 569 00:36:47,908 --> 00:36:48,309 [beverley_thomson]: a panic 570 00:36:48,902 --> 00:36:49,086 [kel]: this 571 00:36:49,076 --> 00:36:54,683 [beverley_thomson]: i think this has just become part of their life that they accept is going 572 00:36:54,763 --> 00:36:55,285 [beverley_thomson]: to happen 573 00:36:55,202 --> 00:36:55,367 [kel]: yes 574 00:36:55,386 --> 00:37:01,346 [beverley_thomson]: to them at be honest you know how are we going to change that because 575 00:37:01,767 --> 00:37:07,362 [beverley_thomson]: we're fighting so many were fighting the media that's for sure absolutely fighting the media 576 00:37:07,723 --> 00:37:12,010 [beverley_thomson]: and this is a political issue isn't it you know kids live with homelessness they 577 00:37:12,050 --> 00:37:16,938 [beverley_thomson]: live with poverty they live with parents who are unemployed parents who take drugs and 578 00:37:18,530 --> 00:37:22,601 [beverley_thomson]: it's hard for them it's very good telling a child who is to be resilient 579 00:37:22,822 --> 00:37:25,008 [beverley_thomson]: but in lots of circumstances 580 00:37:25,598 --> 00:37:26,190 [kel]: yeah 581 00:37:26,010 --> 00:37:31,254 [beverley_thomson]: i used to teach program called resilient kids and i remember i was in a 582 00:37:31,334 --> 00:37:36,203 [beverley_thomson]: class room with you know i think there was eight seven eight year old and 583 00:37:36,263 --> 00:37:41,217 [beverley_thomson]: i was talking about resilience and how they needed to be resilient and how they 584 00:37:41,377 --> 00:37:46,758 [beverley_thomson]: and then i was driving home after i taught this class and i started to 585 00:37:46,798 --> 00:37:51,093 [beverley_thomson]: cry and i thought to myself i have just 586 00:37:50,970 --> 00:37:51,810 [kel]: yes 587 00:37:51,213 --> 00:37:53,756 [beverley_thomson]: been telling a child who i know 588 00:37:53,776 --> 00:37:53,797 [kel]: a 589 00:37:53,836 --> 00:37:58,702 [beverley_thomson]: is going home who i know there is heroine in the house who i know 590 00:37:58,882 --> 00:38:03,167 [beverley_thomson]: has no food who i know won't get breakfast tomorrow before they come i have 591 00:38:03,207 --> 00:38:05,209 [beverley_thomson]: just been telling her to be resilient 592 00:38:05,804 --> 00:38:06,420 [kel]: m m 593 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:08,426 [beverley_thomson]: how can i do that 594 00:38:08,831 --> 00:38:08,851 [kel]: m 595 00:38:09,590 --> 00:38:09,890 [beverley_thomson]: how do 596 00:38:09,879 --> 00:38:09,900 [kel]: m 597 00:38:10,010 --> 00:38:14,458 [beverley_thomson]: i have the right to do that so these are these are these are political 598 00:38:14,618 --> 00:38:17,423 [beverley_thomson]: issues and you know it's great for you know 599 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:17,461 [kel]: oh 600 00:38:17,723 --> 00:38:23,532 [beverley_thomson]: the politicians to say oh well it's their mental health but actually it's not it's 601 00:38:23,613 --> 00:38:27,418 [beverley_thomson]: all the cycle things that they should be addressing and fixing to make us happier 602 00:38:29,273 --> 00:38:31,578 [kel]: beverly how many children did you raise 603 00:38:33,222 --> 00:38:33,323 [beverley_thomson]: one 604 00:38:33,350 --> 00:38:37,196 [kel]: you have one so tell me and you taught this class also how do you 605 00:38:37,296 --> 00:38:37,837 [kel]: raise a 606 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:38,002 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 607 00:38:37,917 --> 00:38:41,383 [kel]: resilient child yeah 608 00:38:44,401 --> 00:38:47,133 [beverley_thomson]: well i think i was very lucky in that i had a child who is 609 00:38:47,194 --> 00:38:47,897 [beverley_thomson]: very sporty 610 00:38:48,864 --> 00:38:48,904 [kel]: hm 611 00:38:49,730 --> 00:38:55,360 [beverley_thomson]: it was quite a talented socker player and he was very active and he was 612 00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:00,007 [beverley_thomson]: very fit and he loved being out doors and he hated reading by the way 613 00:39:00,088 --> 00:39:00,588 [beverley_thomson]: but he loved 614 00:39:00,510 --> 00:39:00,755 [kel]: oh 615 00:39:00,648 --> 00:39:01,270 [beverley_thomson]: kicking a football 616 00:39:01,350 --> 00:39:01,571 [kel]: oh 617 00:39:01,370 --> 00:39:07,077 [beverley_thomson]: round um and i think i was just fortunate that i didn't have a child 618 00:39:07,237 --> 00:39:15,704 [beverley_thomson]: who really ever had any issues with friendship or with i was lucky i was 619 00:39:15,784 --> 00:39:20,338 [beverley_thomson]: fortunate i really was and this isn't the norm this really isn't the norm 620 00:39:20,871 --> 00:39:25,003 [kel]: m i think when you speak about that child who has to go home into 621 00:39:25,363 --> 00:39:29,568 [kel]: an environment maybe it's a broken home or there's you know there's drug addiction or 622 00:39:29,808 --> 00:39:35,481 [kel]: there's violence it's the community supports it's that school system it's people who take an 623 00:39:35,681 --> 00:39:41,548 [kel]: interest in that person who show that that child some love and support and encouragement 624 00:39:41,900 --> 00:39:42,042 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 625 00:39:42,730 --> 00:39:45,955 [kel]: and when we start labeling kids like that 626 00:39:45,877 --> 00:39:45,959 [beverley_thomson]: ah 627 00:39:46,175 --> 00:39:52,225 [kel]: as a d h d or that they have depression then we start medicalizing and 628 00:39:52,386 --> 00:39:58,396 [kel]: drugging normal and expected reactions to adverse conditions and that's really the disappointing 629 00:39:58,060 --> 00:39:58,182 [beverley_thomson]: yep 630 00:39:58,436 --> 00:40:01,641 [kel]: thing that's kind of evolved in our society because if we're going to be if 631 00:40:01,661 --> 00:40:04,766 [kel]: we're gonna be better as a community we're gonna be better as health care professionals 632 00:40:05,367 --> 00:40:10,376 [kel]: that we have to understand what is the normal and expected reactions to adverse conditions 633 00:40:10,557 --> 00:40:16,347 [kel]: and not medicalize those responses but yet know how to support them nurture them and 634 00:40:16,387 --> 00:40:17,188 [kel]: then ultimately 635 00:40:17,515 --> 00:40:17,535 [beverley_thomson]: s 636 00:40:17,689 --> 00:40:22,357 [kel]: then build those those skills in resilience when they get of an age where they 637 00:40:22,437 --> 00:40:23,539 [kel]: have more independence 638 00:40:26,610 --> 00:40:32,039 [beverley_thomson]: absolutely i totally agree but you know and i'm as much as we can we 639 00:40:32,140 --> 00:40:36,287 [beverley_thomson]: need to sport children and some of the programs that now put into schools a 640 00:40:36,367 --> 00:40:41,976 [beverley_thomson]: fantastic programs but he don't work for every child they really don't work for every 641 00:40:42,077 --> 00:40:46,827 [beverley_thomson]: child and we need a more personalized approach for children who really are going through 642 00:40:46,887 --> 00:40:47,508 [beverley_thomson]: difficulties 643 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:54,493 [kel]: we have a different medical system here in the united states the u k from 644 00:40:54,773 --> 00:40:58,825 [kel]: what i understand is more of a universal health care system so the government is 645 00:40:58,865 --> 00:41:07,231 [kel]: much more involved in the treatment of their citizens you have worked with the scottish 646 00:41:07,311 --> 00:41:12,922 [kel]: government i think you've also consulted and worked with the u k council for evidence 647 00:41:13,002 --> 00:41:22,185 [kel]: based psychiatry the british medical association i am fascinating ly curious about how medical professionals 648 00:41:22,425 --> 00:41:23,086 [kel]: and government 649 00:41:22,609 --> 00:41:22,630 [beverley_thomson]: m 650 00:41:23,747 --> 00:41:26,650 [kel]: view psychiatric drugs in your region 651 00:41:29,061 --> 00:41:34,249 [beverley_thomson]: oh in my region well in scotland we have the highest antipressent prescribing rates in 652 00:41:34,309 --> 00:41:39,618 [beverley_thomson]: the u k i was on a news and culture programme recently because the media 653 00:41:39,758 --> 00:41:48,172 [beverley_thomson]: here are so concerned about the over prescribing of young people over prescribing avanti presence 654 00:41:48,233 --> 00:41:55,204 [beverley_thomson]: to young people in scotland and this as you just said a political decision so 655 00:41:55,745 --> 00:41:59,772 [beverley_thomson]: we started a petition in scotland i think it was in two thousand and seventeen 656 00:41:59,892 --> 00:42:03,939 [beverley_thomson]: and we asked the scottish government i think it's the first one that's ever been 657 00:42:04,019 --> 00:42:09,384 [beverley_thomson]: done at we asked the scottish government to look at how they can help people 658 00:42:09,424 --> 00:42:18,483 [beverley_thomson]: who have been harmed by dependent on scribe medication i sat on a strategic strategy 659 00:42:18,583 --> 00:42:24,829 [beverley_thomson]: group for gave lots of my time and did so much work and guess what 660 00:42:24,869 --> 00:42:27,399 [beverley_thomson]: happened sing 661 00:42:27,936 --> 00:42:28,710 [kel]: h m 662 00:42:29,511 --> 00:42:32,733 [beverley_thomson]: nothing absolutely nothing 663 00:42:32,863 --> 00:42:33,611 [kel]: why do you think that is 664 00:42:33,823 --> 00:42:42,804 [beverley_thomson]: and we because it suits doesn't it the status cost suits isn't it easier to 665 00:42:43,164 --> 00:42:47,974 [beverley_thomson]: give a prescription than to try and invest in you know the ways that we 666 00:42:48,054 --> 00:42:54,345 [beverley_thomson]: can actually help young people nowadays it's just easier still to let people believe that 667 00:42:54,867 --> 00:42:59,397 [beverley_thomson]: it's their fault there's something wrong with them it's their brain that's broken and it's 668 00:42:59,477 --> 00:43:00,098 [beverley_thomson]: not the system 669 00:43:01,780 --> 00:43:06,788 [kel]: feel like the campaign we need is just to empower parents to say the word 670 00:43:06,928 --> 00:43:08,871 [kel]: no you go to a doctor 671 00:43:08,750 --> 00:43:09,374 [beverley_thomson]: absolutely 672 00:43:09,232 --> 00:43:13,058 [kel]: and a doctor is starting to say these things the parents first response has to 673 00:43:13,119 --> 00:43:17,833 [kel]: be no there has to be something else well we've talked about this in our 674 00:43:17,893 --> 00:43:21,038 [kel]: podcast i don't know if you're aware of this beverley in he united states are 675 00:43:21,278 --> 00:43:28,550 [kel]: hospital systems which pretty much own all our primary care doctors and the primary care 676 00:43:28,631 --> 00:43:35,041 [kel]: facilities in our regions they are man dating administration of screening measures and they usually 677 00:43:35,202 --> 00:43:38,547 [kel]: very poorly constructed screening measures like the p h q nine 678 00:43:39,010 --> 00:43:39,610 [beverley_thomson]: oh 679 00:43:39,048 --> 00:43:39,669 [kel]: and so each 680 00:43:39,610 --> 00:43:39,832 [beverley_thomson]: oh 681 00:43:39,829 --> 00:43:45,676 [kel]: die there is man dated to provide this to children adolescence and even adults as 682 00:43:45,641 --> 00:43:46,270 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 683 00:43:45,756 --> 00:43:46,478 [kel]: a screening measure 684 00:43:46,330 --> 00:43:47,260 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 685 00:43:46,498 --> 00:43:50,506 [kel]: which is highly sensitive and it's going to over diagnose most people 686 00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:50,821 [beverley_thomson]: oh 687 00:43:50,586 --> 00:43:59,399 [kel]: with clinical depression and that then opens the pathway to a prescription drug so i 688 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:05,430 [kel]: know on social medium myself i've outspoken resist taking these screening measures parents do not 689 00:44:05,610 --> 00:44:07,613 [kel]: let your kids take these screening measures 690 00:44:07,470 --> 00:44:07,652 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 691 00:44:08,114 --> 00:44:10,097 [kel]: my goodness trust yourself you're going 692 00:44:09,950 --> 00:44:10,091 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 693 00:44:10,157 --> 00:44:13,924 [kel]: to know if your kid is really really struggling and then you have to trust 694 00:44:14,445 --> 00:44:19,470 [kel]: your own instinct about what you're your would need hm 695 00:44:20,971 --> 00:44:26,742 [beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely but you know and if we could educate parents about what these drugs 696 00:44:26,842 --> 00:44:31,850 [beverley_thomson]: actually do and they knew about the harms that they could cause and they would 697 00:44:31,971 --> 00:44:38,542 [beverley_thomson]: they would be they would be thinking twice about giving children these drugs it's not 698 00:44:38,642 --> 00:44:43,577 [beverley_thomson]: you know life's hard for parents and parents too isn't it it's not easy but 699 00:44:43,859 --> 00:44:45,427 [beverley_thomson]: drugging children is not the answer 700 00:44:46,380 --> 00:44:47,485 [kel]: yeah so great 701 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:52,852 [beverley_thomson]: and these re we're starting to actually introduce screening programs as well in some parts 702 00:44:52,912 --> 00:44:55,258 [beverley_thomson]: of the u k and you know we're told to 703 00:44:55,890 --> 00:44:56,910 [kel]: oh 704 00:44:56,540 --> 00:45:00,767 [beverley_thomson]: problem means that i think a lot of the time screening is done really subconsciously 705 00:45:00,887 --> 00:45:05,034 [beverley_thomson]: especially by prescribers you know they don't actually get the screen out you know they 706 00:45:05,094 --> 00:45:09,243 [beverley_thomson]: don't actually get the gad seven or the phkding out and they do ask you 707 00:45:09,424 --> 00:45:12,277 [beverley_thomson]: specific questions but their programme to do it 708 00:45:13,203 --> 00:45:13,766 [kel]: there's no doubt 709 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:14,946 [beverley_thomson]: a programme did 710 00:45:15,761 --> 00:45:19,006 [kel]: so there's a great quote that begins one of the chapters and it ends with 711 00:45:19,066 --> 00:45:22,973 [kel]: this everybody who made the commercial because it was talking you were talking about big 712 00:45:23,053 --> 00:45:28,362 [kel]: farm and commercials and advertisements has a financial interest in your future ehavior and that 713 00:45:28,422 --> 00:45:28,642 [kel]: is so 714 00:45:28,701 --> 00:45:28,845 [beverley_thomson]: yep 715 00:45:28,802 --> 00:45:33,109 [kel]: telling and i wish more people would understand that part of this narrative that we've 716 00:45:33,170 --> 00:45:37,196 [kel]: now seen for the last thirty forty years it's funny because our government officials here 717 00:45:37,717 --> 00:45:42,084 [kel]: are constantly high lighting things like it's national mental health month you know we have 718 00:45:42,125 --> 00:45:45,690 [kel]: a mental health crisis but the one thing that they could probably do right now 719 00:45:45,791 --> 00:45:50,859 [kel]: to improve everyone's mental health is to put a ban on advertising of these of 720 00:45:50,899 --> 00:45:52,286 [kel]: these would you grue hat 721 00:45:52,520 --> 00:46:00,117 [beverley_thomson]: yeah i absolutely you know taking medic these drugs and medication this medication isn't keeping 722 00:46:00,177 --> 00:46:06,241 [beverley_thomson]: us healthy it's not keeping us healthy it's making our society sicker and i think 723 00:46:06,281 --> 00:46:06,502 [beverley_thomson]: you know 724 00:46:06,793 --> 00:46:06,834 [kel]: a 725 00:46:07,264 --> 00:46:13,016 [beverley_thomson]: i don't know whether you're spoken to m i had brain freezing 726 00:46:13,363 --> 00:46:13,383 [kel]: h 727 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:14,161 [beverley_thomson]: um 728 00:46:14,169 --> 00:46:14,190 [kel]: m 729 00:46:14,763 --> 00:46:19,925 [beverley_thomson]: and you know he's spoken for a long time by the fact that you know 730 00:46:20,990 --> 00:46:26,636 [beverley_thomson]: mental health messages are moving is sicker they really are making a sicker as a 731 00:46:26,696 --> 00:46:30,524 [beverley_thomson]: society we need to change the narrative don't we 732 00:46:31,341 --> 00:46:36,048 [kel]: absolutely we certainly do and i'd like to come up with some you know helpful 733 00:46:36,149 --> 00:46:40,977 [kel]: solutions for that for that next step one of the things that's really important we 734 00:46:41,057 --> 00:46:47,963 [kel]: talk about messaging around to health is the more that you are focused and attentive 735 00:46:48,404 --> 00:46:57,254 [kel]: on your internal experience and the judgment of that everything that i understand about emotion 736 00:46:57,354 --> 00:47:05,270 [kel]: regulation the judgment the invalidation and the distortion of our internal experience creates much more 737 00:47:05,510 --> 00:47:11,322 [kel]: distress so although we have all these decreased stigma campaigns and you must focus on 738 00:47:11,383 --> 00:47:16,045 [kel]: your mental health everything i know about creating a life worth living and dealing with 739 00:47:16,085 --> 00:47:21,213 [kel]: the complex emotions that we have is to direct our attention outward away from ourselves 740 00:47:21,834 --> 00:47:27,807 [kel]: into our world you spoke about your son and with football and athletics and connection 741 00:47:27,887 --> 00:47:33,651 [kel]: with nature that's with the relationships that we nurture in our health it's getting back 742 00:47:33,711 --> 00:47:38,704 [kel]: to developing a purpose in our lives the more you focus on yourself the more 743 00:47:38,845 --> 00:47:40,068 [kel]: miserable you're going to be 744 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,644 [beverley_thomson]: yeah you talked about there you know and i don't know you talk about a 745 00:47:44,684 --> 00:47:49,235 [beverley_thomson]: lot about you having a life worth living and having a these drugs 746 00:47:50,770 --> 00:47:50,851 [kel]: no 747 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:57,095 [beverley_thomson]: aren't giving most people who take them a life worth living on for many people 748 00:47:57,135 --> 00:48:02,093 [beverley_thomson]: they're just the start many problems and i talked a lot but my book about 749 00:48:02,273 --> 00:48:06,797 [beverley_thomson]: now medically on explained symptoms and people then being given for the diagnoses and then 750 00:48:06,857 --> 00:48:13,035 [beverley_thomson]: people being drugged further just just five minutes in a prescriber's office can be the 751 00:48:13,135 --> 00:48:21,732 [beverley_thomson]: start as a lifelong psychiatric patient five minutes for something that is you know you 752 00:48:21,793 --> 00:48:28,676 [beverley_thomson]: lost your job girl friend left you oh yes can be the start of a 753 00:48:28,756 --> 00:48:35,816 [beverley_thomson]: journey as a lifelong psychiatric patient this is sad i is really sad 754 00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:43,278 [kel]: yeah unfortunately these drugs are being more widely prescribed to conditions that they weren't even 755 00:48:43,659 --> 00:48:46,463 [kel]: initially evaluated for chronic pain 756 00:48:46,991 --> 00:48:47,135 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 757 00:48:47,265 --> 00:48:54,437 [kel]: is an example anarexia where we know the food is the actual medicine being eating 758 00:48:54,918 --> 00:49:01,288 [kel]: there's drugs being provided for the elderly in homes or just for being lonely now 759 00:49:01,348 --> 00:49:03,785 [kel]: they're putting people lawn on prescription drug 760 00:49:05,700 --> 00:49:07,543 [beverley_thomson]: loneliness as you know an epidemic 761 00:49:07,551 --> 00:49:07,713 [kel]: yes 762 00:49:07,864 --> 00:49:13,172 [beverley_thomson]: it really is an epidemic and you know it's so easy to drug especially the 763 00:49:13,333 --> 00:49:16,859 [beverley_thomson]: elderly when it comes to when when they are only on 764 00:49:17,682 --> 00:49:17,823 [kel]: it's 765 00:49:17,801 --> 00:49:17,922 [beverley_thomson]: it's 766 00:49:17,863 --> 00:49:17,944 [kel]: to 767 00:49:17,982 --> 00:49:22,491 [beverley_thomson]: so sad really isn't it that we aren't giving the elder leader the passion and 768 00:49:22,551 --> 00:49:29,561 [beverley_thomson]: the compassion and the what they deserve instead we're drugging them drugging them 769 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:32,702 [kel]: i realize the simple thing you can do 770 00:49:32,672 --> 00:49:32,692 [beverley_thomson]: s 771 00:49:33,584 --> 00:49:37,951 [kel]: for anyone who's who's older is just sit down with them and have a conversation 772 00:49:38,372 --> 00:49:41,677 [kel]: i could sit down with my grandfather who's now going to be turning ninety four 773 00:49:41,717 --> 00:49:45,004 [kel]: years old and he could talk talk and talk and that would make his day 774 00:49:45,153 --> 00:49:45,700 [beverley_thomson]: hm 775 00:49:45,225 --> 00:49:49,636 [kel]: is to just tell you the stories and the wisdom that he accumulated through all 776 00:49:49,696 --> 00:49:53,542 [kel]: those years nd you know you get a lot out of it yourself to just 777 00:49:53,642 --> 00:49:56,445 [kel]: even betting up old photographs and i tell you the same 778 00:49:56,471 --> 00:49:56,636 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 779 00:49:56,505 --> 00:50:00,954 [kel]: story over and over again like my mom loves doing that you know that's that's 780 00:50:01,220 --> 00:50:06,451 [beverley_thomson]: it's a it's a system again isn't it you know it's it's much cheaper and 781 00:50:06,531 --> 00:50:13,847 [beverley_thomson]: cost effective to give somebody a cheap generic drug it is to employ people 782 00:50:14,543 --> 00:50:14,564 [kel]: m 783 00:50:15,230 --> 00:50:15,594 [beverley_thomson]: to walk 784 00:50:15,399 --> 00:50:15,420 [kel]: m 785 00:50:15,756 --> 00:50:18,933 [beverley_thomson]: with these people it's much too per and easier 786 00:50:19,924 --> 00:50:24,833 [kel]: yeah it's almost like if we got visited by highly evolved beings from another planet 787 00:50:26,155 --> 00:50:31,263 [kel]: one of the things that they would be kind of critical of our culture is 788 00:50:31,363 --> 00:50:39,817 [kel]: how the elderly are treated the ones with the most amount of wisdom seem to 789 00:50:39,897 --> 00:50:44,504 [kel]: have the least value and in our society it really is a western culture is 790 00:50:44,584 --> 00:50:50,202 [kel]: really a society and culture for young people you know it's about it's about fame 791 00:50:50,282 --> 00:50:55,856 [kel]: and it's about achievement and it's about you know living your best life and there's 792 00:50:55,957 --> 00:50:58,801 [kel]: so many though whether it's the social 793 00:50:58,860 --> 00:50:58,961 [beverley_thomson]: ah 794 00:50:58,901 --> 00:51:04,267 [kel]: media marketing and and those who really know put themselves out there it's like there's 795 00:51:04,308 --> 00:51:11,268 [kel]: a worship of young impulsive stupid behavior at the expense of the wisdom of elders 796 00:51:13,421 --> 00:51:18,292 [beverley_thomson]: it's almost like when you have no longer have any cultural value just drug 797 00:51:18,228 --> 00:51:18,248 [kel]: a 798 00:51:18,372 --> 00:51:19,437 [beverley_thomson]: you and forget about you 799 00:51:20,701 --> 00:51:21,122 [kel]: yeah and 800 00:51:21,170 --> 00:51:25,494 [beverley_thomson]: but these people do have cultural value they have a great deal to add to 801 00:51:25,875 --> 00:51:31,132 [beverley_thomson]: to society and a great deal to contribute and you know we shouldn't be drugging 802 00:51:32,035 --> 00:51:32,417 [beverley_thomson]: elderly 803 00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:34,280 [kel]: yeah 804 00:51:34,272 --> 00:51:34,880 [beverley_thomson]: society 805 00:51:34,881 --> 00:51:37,105 [kel]: yeah i would say there's a lot we can learn from a lot of other 806 00:51:37,165 --> 00:51:41,853 [kel]: cultures especially central america a lot of the asian countries and even in some countries 807 00:51:41,893 --> 00:51:48,614 [kel]: in europe is the importance of this household of the generations of family raising one 808 00:51:48,674 --> 00:51:50,498 [kel]: another because there's lessons 809 00:51:50,433 --> 00:51:50,980 [beverley_thomson]: hm 810 00:51:50,538 --> 00:51:52,601 [kel]: that can be learned and that 811 00:51:52,681 --> 00:51:52,803 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 812 00:51:52,681 --> 00:51:57,068 [kel]: wisdom gets passed down to multiple generations and things that a grandmother would say to 813 00:51:57,109 --> 00:51:59,752 [kel]: you at a young just can stick with you for years and then you pass 814 00:51:59,812 --> 00:52:03,958 [kel]: it on to the generation afterwards i often reflect back on here in the united 815 00:52:04,038 --> 00:52:09,099 [kel]: states why we've lost this way when it comes to diet and some of the 816 00:52:09,140 --> 00:52:14,803 [kel]: medicinal benefits of certain meals and the way things are cooked because we came here 817 00:52:15,324 --> 00:52:21,045 [kel]: and we often didn't have that grandmother of that grandfather with us a lot of 818 00:52:21,105 --> 00:52:24,371 [kel]: us immigrated in our twenties and then we were on our own trying to figure 819 00:52:24,451 --> 00:52:29,199 [kel]: things out and we just kind of fell into this industrial country and we just 820 00:52:29,910 --> 00:52:33,095 [kel]: had our own solutions we lost out on that wisdom and now we're finding it 821 00:52:33,115 --> 00:52:37,001 [kel]: through the internet but we need to bring our grandparents back into the house an 822 00:52:37,062 --> 00:52:41,529 [kel]: live with us you talk about self sufficiency and resiliency and those key things being 823 00:52:41,649 --> 00:52:45,773 [kel]: gone and in younger generations not able to think for themselves i think that you 824 00:52:45,853 --> 00:52:49,716 [kel]: hit a very good point there the families are kind of you know if there's 825 00:52:49,776 --> 00:52:52,519 [kel]: more and more families that are breaking apart there's more and more people that are 826 00:52:52,559 --> 00:52:53,910 [kel]: putting their they're putting 827 00:52:53,843 --> 00:52:54,210 [beverley_thomson]: frozen 828 00:52:53,970 --> 00:52:57,234 [kel]: more emphasis on work you know their careers 829 00:52:57,141 --> 00:52:57,343 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 830 00:52:57,314 --> 00:53:00,638 [kel]: and things like that but as you said it's part of the system once again 831 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:02,742 [kel]: we're a country 832 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:02,721 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 833 00:53:02,823 --> 00:53:03,344 [kel]: of large 834 00:53:03,265 --> 00:53:03,708 [beverley_thomson]: absolutely 835 00:53:03,525 --> 00:53:04,067 [kel]: empty homes 836 00:53:05,550 --> 00:53:07,752 [beverley_thomson]: and i think that if you i think i 837 00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:09,120 [kel]: yeah 838 00:53:07,852 --> 00:53:12,196 [beverley_thomson]: write about it at the end of my book you know the the phmacytical industry's 839 00:53:12,316 --> 00:53:13,016 [beverley_thomson]: next target 840 00:53:12,721 --> 00:53:12,801 [kel]: ah 841 00:53:13,097 --> 00:53:17,720 [beverley_thomson]: market market is asia pacific and 842 00:53:17,643 --> 00:53:17,764 [kel]: yeah 843 00:53:17,740 --> 00:53:24,431 [beverley_thomson]: that's the fastest growth up to i think twenty twenty seven projected so i have 844 00:53:24,471 --> 00:53:30,902 [beverley_thomson]: a friend who is from lanka and i taught to him a lot about you 845 00:53:30,962 --> 00:53:36,170 [beverley_thomson]: know my work and he laughs he really laughs we've been through this we've been 846 00:53:36,251 --> 00:53:40,237 [beverley_thomson]: through that we've we've coped with this what is wrong with you people 847 00:53:41,070 --> 00:53:41,350 [kel]: yeah 848 00:53:41,700 --> 00:53:44,885 [beverley_thomson]: mind you if we look at what we look at what's going on right now 849 00:53:45,005 --> 00:53:47,469 [beverley_thomson]: in solancathey are having an awful lot to go through 850 00:53:47,461 --> 00:53:47,762 [kel]: so right 851 00:53:47,890 --> 00:53:48,832 [beverley_thomson]: but but again it's 852 00:53:48,746 --> 00:53:49,087 [kel]: they are 853 00:53:49,352 --> 00:53:57,228 [beverley_thomson]: it's a cultural perspective isn't you know it's how how they think they should try 854 00:53:57,388 --> 00:54:01,358 [beverley_thomson]: to deal with things before they turn to farmasitical drugs 855 00:54:02,380 --> 00:54:07,929 [kel]: i agree beverly i was hoping that there's somewhat of an awakening that is occurring 856 00:54:07,720 --> 00:54:08,025 [beverley_thomson]: oh 857 00:54:08,991 --> 00:54:09,572 [kel]: worldwide 858 00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:09,641 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 859 00:54:09,632 --> 00:54:12,777 [kel]: with these drugs but then i look at the numbers and i look at how 860 00:54:12,857 --> 00:54:17,631 [kel]: many anti depressents are prescribed you have any data on what how many how many 861 00:54:17,932 --> 00:54:19,798 [kel]: anti depressents are currently being prescribed 862 00:54:21,251 --> 00:54:25,803 [beverley_thomson]: well i think in the in england alone where up to eight point three million 863 00:54:25,884 --> 00:54:27,508 [beverley_thomson]: people who take an presence 864 00:54:29,138 --> 00:54:29,158 [kel]: h 865 00:54:29,551 --> 00:54:29,851 [beverley_thomson]: um 866 00:54:30,069 --> 00:54:30,090 [kel]: m 867 00:54:30,172 --> 00:54:36,987 [beverley_thomson]: i think the last statistics that i had i think fortifive million people in the 868 00:54:37,047 --> 00:54:39,677 [beverley_thomson]: states or around that who take antistepresses 869 00:54:40,590 --> 00:54:45,699 [kel]: yeah that's unbelievable that's just how normalized it has become and i think a take 870 00:54:45,759 --> 00:54:46,280 [kel]: home message 871 00:54:46,011 --> 00:54:46,175 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 872 00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:51,027 [kel]: here is there's no such thing as a magic pill folks and this pill comes 873 00:54:51,168 --> 00:54:58,362 [kel]: with really potential for severe adverse consequences and when we're talking about age ranges when 874 00:54:58,403 --> 00:55:04,312 [kel]: we're talking about those under the age of twenty five likely based on the rapid 875 00:55:04,392 --> 00:55:09,617 [kel]: changes of that developmental stage and the rapid brain changes that occur the adverse consequences 876 00:55:09,978 --> 00:55:12,570 [kel]: are much much greater it is 877 00:55:12,690 --> 00:55:12,855 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 878 00:55:12,690 --> 00:55:22,164 [kel]: now time that you start asking very serious questions to your diatritians primary care doctors 879 00:55:22,646 --> 00:55:27,250 [kel]: and your psychiatrists one of the questions i want everybody to ask especially to a 880 00:55:27,290 --> 00:55:32,395 [kel]: psychiatrist or or a g p would you take this drug yourself would you prescribe 881 00:55:32,455 --> 00:55:39,623 [kel]: this drug to your own child or adolescent given the situations that they're going through 882 00:55:39,744 --> 00:55:45,945 [kel]: right now what are the adverse consequences ask those questions i understand that there could 883 00:55:45,985 --> 00:55:51,421 [kel]: be two and a half times greater likelihood of suicide compared to a placebo if 884 00:55:51,462 --> 00:55:57,751 [kel]: we're talking about this drug predominantly having a placebo effect why don't you just give 885 00:55:57,791 --> 00:56:02,614 [kel]: him a sugar pill why not something else you know these are really important questions 886 00:56:02,634 --> 00:56:07,307 [kel]: that you have to ask medical professionals because i think blind faith in the medical 887 00:56:07,387 --> 00:56:13,451 [kel]: authority it's over this time has ended and these are the this is the type 888 00:56:13,531 --> 00:56:19,216 [kel]: of book that you want to use as a resource because what it does it 889 00:56:19,296 --> 00:56:19,718 [kel]: provides 890 00:56:19,473 --> 00:56:19,637 [beverley_thomson]: kay 891 00:56:19,958 --> 00:56:26,204 [kel]: very compelling accounts from real people whose lives have been harmed by prescription anti depressant 892 00:56:26,965 --> 00:56:33,256 [kel]: it provides very clear scientific data and evidence that there is no such thing as 893 00:56:33,336 --> 00:56:38,345 [kel]: a magic pill and we can no gor pretend otherwise because there are many people 894 00:56:38,425 --> 00:56:43,397 [kel]: out there that've been on these drugs way beyond any period that they've been studied 895 00:56:43,979 --> 00:56:50,303 [kel]: and they need our help we need study on future research on how to safely 896 00:56:50,464 --> 00:56:56,694 [kel]: taper off these drugs and understand what type of supplements or ancillary treatment that can 897 00:56:56,754 --> 00:57:02,986 [kel]: maybe relieve the symptoms of withdraw more importantly we have to prevent the next generation 898 00:57:03,067 --> 00:57:05,197 [kel]: of going down a similar path 899 00:57:06,780 --> 00:57:12,345 [beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely i think it's important that we remind everybody these drugs have an f 900 00:57:12,385 --> 00:57:17,562 [beverley_thomson]: d a black box warning for people under twenty five in terms of 901 00:57:17,550 --> 00:57:18,420 [kel]: yeah 902 00:57:17,702 --> 00:57:22,944 [beverley_thomson]: efficacy and suicidality if that's the case why do 903 00:57:22,875 --> 00:57:22,937 [kel]: ah 904 00:57:23,025 --> 00:57:27,086 [beverley_thomson]: we go a doctor and have prescribed to our child 905 00:57:26,820 --> 00:57:27,630 [kel]: yeah 906 00:57:27,707 --> 00:57:31,956 [beverley_thomson]: or a young person in our family a drug that has an f d a 907 00:57:32,076 --> 00:57:32,978 [beverley_thomson]: black box warning 908 00:57:34,342 --> 00:57:39,903 [kel]: great point yeah beverly what do you have going on now is there another book 909 00:57:40,705 --> 00:57:43,369 [kel]: that you're starting to write what the things are you doing professionally 910 00:57:44,660 --> 00:57:46,327 [beverley_thomson]: yeah you love the title of this one 911 00:57:47,460 --> 00:57:48,300 [kel]: yeah 912 00:57:48,413 --> 00:57:52,282 [beverley_thomson]: it's it's called the united state of anxiety 913 00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:53,082 [kel]: oh boy 914 00:57:52,863 --> 00:57:54,066 [beverley_thomson]: the good old u s a 915 00:57:54,525 --> 00:57:57,673 [kel]: there you go let's end that conversation but i don't like being attacked 916 00:57:57,372 --> 00:58:03,191 [beverley_thomson]: yes the united states it's about benzoteaspens primarily but yeah 917 00:58:03,221 --> 00:58:03,525 [kel]: excellent 918 00:58:03,933 --> 00:58:05,116 [beverley_thomson]: think the good us 919 00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:10,908 [kel]: m yeah unfortunately we are leading the world and in this and the prescription drug 920 00:58:10,989 --> 00:58:17,399 [kel]: market and mental health problems but it is unfortunately exactly what we see every day 921 00:58:17,620 --> 00:58:19,763 [kel]: in clinical practice it's it's that it's 922 00:58:19,700 --> 00:58:19,842 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 923 00:58:19,823 --> 00:58:25,232 [kel]: that worry it's that overwhelming fear that is certainly provoked by our media and it's 924 00:58:25,292 --> 00:58:28,678 [kel]: provoked by our government you can understand why we have such 925 00:58:28,870 --> 00:58:29,012 [beverley_thomson]: yeah 926 00:58:28,898 --> 00:58:33,197 [kel]: a mentally unwell nation right now where can 927 00:58:33,250 --> 00:58:41,049 [beverley_thomson]: yeah sorry you know i think you know guys like yourselves who are inviting people 928 00:58:41,109 --> 00:58:45,416 [beverley_thomson]: like me to to be able to talk about our work and talk about our 929 00:58:45,496 --> 00:58:51,574 [beverley_thomson]: experiences and most of all talk out you know the experiences of real people and 930 00:58:51,634 --> 00:58:57,272 [beverley_thomson]: i think that's where where change is going to happen the more we hear about 931 00:58:57,313 --> 00:58:58,838 [beverley_thomson]: the experiences of real people 932 00:59:00,761 --> 00:59:05,688 [kel]: no doubt beverly how can people find you how can they buy your book 933 00:59:07,750 --> 00:59:13,442 [beverley_thomson]: they can find me on twitter at anti depressed one um they can buy my 934 00:59:13,502 --> 00:59:19,834 [beverley_thomson]: book on amazon or at any major book store or sorry book site not really 935 00:59:19,874 --> 00:59:20,515 [beverley_thomson]: book stores now 936 00:59:21,150 --> 00:59:21,655 [kel]: oh 937 00:59:21,216 --> 00:59:27,046 [beverley_thomson]: we don't really have many book store book sites yeah and i am launching a 938 00:59:27,086 --> 00:59:32,400 [beverley_thomson]: website very soon so which will be called anti depressed and i hope that will 939 00:59:32,461 --> 00:59:34,387 [beverley_thomson]: help people and have lots of resources to 940 00:59:35,841 --> 00:59:39,678 [kel]: great beverley we really appreciate your coming on the program today yes thank 941 00:59:39,660 --> 00:59:39,820 [beverley_thomson]: thank 942 00:59:39,719 --> 00:59:39,821 [kel]: you 943 00:59:39,860 --> 00:59:41,505 [beverley_thomson]: you so much for inviting me it's really 944 00:59:41,414 --> 00:59:41,940 [kel]: hm 945 00:59:41,545 --> 00:59:42,348 [beverley_thomson]: nice to meet you all