Steven Evans 0:02 Okay. Well, thank you, thank you, Sandeep, so much for coming on the show and for being willing to share your story honestly and openly, and and being open to just having the discussion. I think that in and of itself is a win, and I think it's something that we, our audience, is looking for, and hopefully can help a bunch of of people. What would be really awesome if if you wouldn't mind just quickly I don't know maybe 10 seconds introducing yourself and then we go from there. Sundeep 0:30 Yeah. So my name is Sandeep Parachury. I am your neighbor, I guess. Yep. Hey, friend. I've got a wife and two kids, and sorry, what was that? Steven Evans 0:43 And friend, yeah, Sundeep 0:44 yeah, yeah. And yeah, so yeah, I've got wife, two kids. About this, one of them about the same age as yours, and the other one a little bit younger, I guess. Yeah, no dog, but we're trying to get two cats. Yes, yeah, just trying to expand the family. Steven Evans 1:03 Incredible, into the various species as well. You know. Yeah. Well, I Sundeep 1:09 mean, I don't know how you take care of a dog, man, but it's like having another kid, and that's that's one thing we don't want. It is right. It's it's totally, and like from the Steven Evans 1:18 training to everything, plus it's a lot. It's a lot, but thank you again for for coming on and and for being willing to talk. I mean, for for me, I'm most interested, of course, in the crucible moments that we all face, and I feel like there's a common thread among those. And I think the first, I guess, where I'd like to start is if you could take us back to that moment when you left home, you know, for the first time. You know, walk me through that experience. You know, was it were your parents there? Were your siblings there? Were you by yourself? Or when you decided, hey, like I'm leaving home and I'm gonna do this thing on my own. Like, walk us through that time. Sundeep 1:58 Well, so I think there was a couple different times I left home, though, which I think is increasingly kind of like the standard for a lot of people. So, 18, decided to go to college. It was a sort of thing where you know, so I grew up right next to Rutgers University. It was not my first choice to go there, but it I didn't get into any of the elite colleges, let's say, and but so then it became like, do I go out of state just to be away from my parents, or do I save a boatload of money and go to Rutgers, which is which was literally like what like a 15 minute drive from where I live. Steven Evans 2:40 Awesome, Sundeep 2:40 and so I did go to Rutgers, saved a bunch of money, and decided to put a bunch of that money that I saved into living on campus, even though I lived only 15 minutes away. This is something, by the way, that my wife, who's Australian, just does not understand about America. She says she says that college in Australia is just what happens after a high school, and you you just live at home usually, and you just go to college like it's a job, yeah. And then you graduate college, like there's no like you know on campus housing and fraternities and all this thing, but right, Sundeep 3:14 but it's it's not the ocean that I was swimming in, I guess. So yeah, yeah. So I decided to live on campus. I guess that's the first time I moved out when I was 18. It did not go well. I see, and I can laugh about it now. But now I think back at it, how disastrous it was. But I don't know. I guess I could just get right into it. Let's see. It was 2004 Four, I think there's a segment of your audience that might be like, "Oh, what is a bad thing that could happen to a young man who moves out of his house in 2004? And they will understand it, but September of 2004 is when World of Warcraft came out. Excellent. So yeah, so I fell right into that hole. Amazing. I fell right into that World of Warcraft hole. Did not. I mean, it was my first time playing that type of video game. Like I played video games before, but I never played like that MMO RPG, like kind of suck suck your life into it, kind of game before, and it came at an awful time where I had no checks and balances. Like you know, my my parents aren't very strict, but they did like you know make sure that I didn't spend all my life on certain things, and they were no longer there, and so I gave away my freshman year to that. Yep, I wouldn't say that. Yeah, I mean you know I made some friends. I started playing poker, which I found that I was very good at. Which you know that could have been an awful thing, I guess, but that actually ended up being a good thing because it actually helped me pay for college a little bit. Cool. But and that's also when online poker was still legal. So I did basically. I just played. Online poker, and I played World of Warcraft, and that was my experience leaving home for the first time. Not great. Steven Evans 5:07 Hey, I wouldn't say. I mean, everybody leaves home, I think, with their vision of sort of who they're going to become, and and I I'm curious at that time, you know, what was it that you felt like you were moving toward, or you know, what was it that was driving you to select these things? Sundeep 5:26 I think that's that's a very good point you made. That a lot of people have a vision of what they're going to do when they move out, and I don't think I had one. And I think things like that took that hole of where maybe if I'd been a little bit better adjusted, that I would have had specific goals and plans and been working towards that. But in the absence of that, you just I just wanted to leave home. Steven Evans 5:52 Yeah, Sundeep 5:52 I'm I my I have a very good relationship with my parents, but I wouldn't say I'm very close to them just because of my personality type. I would say I'm just a very independent person, and I just really wanted to leave home. That's like that was that was all I wanted was to get away from home. Steven Evans 6:07 Yeah, Sundeep 6:07 and that is not a good reason to leave home. Steven Evans 6:09 Yeah, I hear a better Sundeep 6:10 reason is to have a specific plan, a specific vision for what you want to do, because if you don't have that, I think other things that maybe will just creep in, like that you don't that you don't that you didn't necessarily plan on them coming in, right? Steven Evans 6:24 Right. Sundeep 6:24 So I think I think that's that's why I didn't have that. I knew I just wanted to graduate college. I remember I picked economics because I was really into I was really into like Adam Adam Smith at the time, which is kind of weird now. Because but anyway, for any number of reasons, but yeah. So I was just like, I'm gonna do economics. Oh, I decided to do statistics because I was really into like Moneyball, and I wanted to into wanted to do like baseball stats. Maybe I was like, maybe I'll do that. So I don't know. I just like that chose that those things to study, and yeah. I mean that that was that was it. I can't say that there was any vision for me, unfortunately. Steven Evans 7:02 Yeah, and I don't think that's necessarily a problem. I feel like many of us enter, you know, into that sphere as a blank slate, wanting to, at some point, you know, in some way, remove ourselves from the home that had become so familiar and sort of strike out on our own and see what we can make of it, or at least escape from the the bounds that were placed on us as as as home. For me, and I write about this in the in the blog. Like I deferred a year from college because I wanted to figure out what it was that I was motivated by. I had no reason to go to school, even though I was accepted, and I felt like, what would I do there that would be different than what I already had at home? I actually Sundeep 7:50 increasingly, I I met other people who've done that, and I feel like that would have been a great step for me. Like that would have helped me. Like I could have spent that year like discovering that I should not be playing World of Warcraft, right? You know what I mean. Without wasting money on tuition, and then gone to school. I think that would be perfect. I think I just needed a. I needed some time to mature, which at that time I don't know. It's it's it's it's kind of strange that we expect everyone that when you're 18 you'll be mature, but we know some people are mature when they're 13. Steven Evans 8:23 Yeah, or I actually or 30-five. I mean, I think I Sundeep 8:27 reached a mature state of mind at the age of 20-seven. I think, yeah, yeah. Not that it was the same way throughout that, but I mean, like that's when I was like, you know, quote unquote, left the childish things behind me. I suppose. Steven Evans 8:40 Sure, but I mean, and even in the way I would say that you're just defining a lot of the activities, I think that you do. You think? I guess the question is, you would arrive at this point, or even you know, at this 27 year old checkpoint. Do you think you would arrive there had not you explored other elements of life, like Warcraft or otherwise. Sundeep 9:03 I well, so that's why I don't say I I shouldn't have done that because on some level I think I had to have done that. I had to have made mistakes. I would have just preferred to made that mistake without paying tuition. Yeah, I think there. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I I. I I I have some cousins who are a little bit older than me, and so they have some kids who are who I've gone to college relatively recently. And I remember one of them, you know, his dad asked me to give him some advice before he went to college, and I never thought about that before. And I still remember what I said, I because I it was kind of a spur of the moment thing. I was just like you know what, you're gonna make a lot of mistakes. Just try not to make any mistakes that you can't take back. You know, like don't don't get a DUI. Don't you know? Don't do the things that you can't undo. But a bad semester, bad year, academically for me. Is completely unfixable. Steven Evans 10:02 Yeah, Sundeep 10:02 you can definitely recover from that. That's not you know. So yeah, thankfully I did not make the kind of mistakes that you can't recover from. So Steven Evans 10:10 right Sundeep 10:10 now it's just a funny story for me. Yeah, and then and hopefully, I don't know. I always think about what what I'm going to tell my son someday, or my daughter. Steven Evans 10:23 For Sundeep 10:23 some reason, I don't worry about my daughter. She's got my she's got my my wife's mentality. I feel like they'll be okay. They've just they've they've got a lot of executive function. Not so much for me. Steven Evans 10:32 Well, they get it earlier than us, and that's not fair. Yeah. And I mean, walk us through like what happened afterwards. You know what? Sure. Sundeep 10:42 Well, so I yeah. I mean, you waste a year doing that and kind of turn around. You're like, grades suck. Wouldn't say I made as many friends as I should have made. You know, that's when I was just that's what actually when I started asking myself what does my life want to look like, and I I didn't come to a conclusion on that, but I did know I didn't want it to be that. Steven Evans 11:04 Right. Sundeep 11:04 So I at least stopped the video games. In fact, to this day, I try to minimize the amount of video games I play in general, just because I just know I whatever sort of like reward hacking part of my brain exists is just very susceptible to the way that video games are designed, and it took me a while to realize that. And it's specific video games too. Like I can play sports video games all day; it doesn't matter. I don't get addicted to them, so I play those a lot. But when it comes to you know min maxing and you know collecting, I can't do that. Yeah, that's that's not good for that's not yeah that just that sort of triggers that part of my brain I suppose that I'd rather not do but yeah so then yeah then like sophomore year I just so I moved into so then you know from the freshman year dorms you move into like a suite situation so I moved in with some of my friends there, and they were kind of like more party people, cooler people, I would say. You know, I so I just did a lot of socialization. I wouldn't say my grades were great, but they were a lot better. And yeah, I just we definitely partied a lot more, which I, I think that was more productive, at least in terms of personal development, than spending all that time playing video games instead. So yeah, I wouldn't say it was all roses from there, but yeah. And then like you know, for for instance, near the end of the that sophomore year, we threw a party where somebody, you know, got very intoxicated, and we had to call an ambulance, and then we got busted, and then, and then you know, we our our housing lottery, which is how they decide like you know where you get to pick where to live, fell all the way to the bottom, and so we ended up living in the worst place in all of Rutgers Silver's apartments, just technically where the football team is supposed to stay. But you know, they-I was there when Ray Rice was there at Rutgers, and let me tell you, he was not staying in those apartments. He was staying somewhere far nicer, I'm sure. Yeah. So and then, but that was actually a great thing that happened to me because we couldn't party, because no one wanted to come out there. Steven Evans 13:22 Yeah. Sundeep 13:23 And I had a great academic year, my junior year, and then I sort of realized like, oh, I actually think I want to be like good at this rather than be good at other things. I guess like you know, just like kind of rediscovered that I wanted to be good at school. I suppose, like I hadn't really tried much before that. So Steven Evans 13:44 yeah, Sundeep 13:44 started to fix that a little bit, and then you know was headed towards the right track. And yeah, Steven Evans 13:50 and was there anything at the time that maybe you were kind of leaning back on, maybe lessons from home, or you know something that kind of motivated you to say, "All right, it's time to get serious. Sundeep 14:07 I would say definitely not lessons from home. I would say that for any number of reasons, my the way that my brain works and the way that I am is not very like my parents. There's other people in my family that take after more. I think my parents are very they're very practical, and I don't see I don't even know that they know about all the mistakes that I made. You know what I mean. But yeah, I don't think that there was anything they could have told me. I'll say this because even past the college experience for a few years after college, I don't think I had much shit together. And I still think that the best thing that my parents ever did for me was they were there to support me, and they never badgered or bugged me, which was weird because they spent the first 18 years of my life just badgering and bugging me, and I still to this day I could not tell you why. I although one time my mom told me because she was saying that my uncle was asking, hey, like what Sundeep doing? Like you know, should we try to figure something out for him? And she basically told she told me this later in life, but she told me that she told my uncle like he's fine, just leave him alone. And on the outside, I can't say that she had any basis for believing that, but I do think it's like the best thing that they ever did for me, and maybe a little bit of was just her knowing who her son was and knowing that anything she said was not going to help me. I had to like, I'm very much a learn by experience person. Yeah, yeah, Steven Evans 16:00 and in those years, I mean, of discovery, because that's really I feel like essential, you know, and like thinking through what matters, what doesn't, how you'll prioritize your time, what are your, you know, individual priorities as a person. You are your own individual, separate from your family, separate from your role within that family, which you inherit, you know, inherited or inhabited for so many years, and like, I'm thinking about what did you think you needed to do to matter at that in those years, you know, let's say junior year, and how did that differ from maybe freshman year? Sundeep 16:38 I think a lot of the focus for me was on how much money can I make, and it wasn't necessarily because I wanted things. I know for sure I didn't want things. I still remember thinking if I can make a million dollars, I'll never work again. That's what I thought then. Steven Evans 16:55 Yeah. Sundeep 16:55 Yeah. So it was just more about like I want more independence, and how do I how do I get more independence? Is by making money. I was interested in economics and statistics, and I did pick up computer science later on. And I decide, you know, at that time, 2007 2000 everyone was, you know, finance was, you know, all the banks were doing well, finance was was booming, and I was like, "Okay, I'll go in there. And then I graduated, and there was a financial crisis. Right, there was no jobs available. I ended up getting a job. Thankfully, I had improved my grades to a certain point, that I got a job at Thomson Reuters as a business analyst. Steven Evans 17:36 Cool. Sundeep 17:37 It was kind of a dead end job, but. or maybe it wasn't a dead. It was a dead end job for me. I still remember my boss, my first boss. She kind of took me aside after like a year on the job, and she said, "Well, like, what's your plans in the future? I said, "Like, I don't know. What do you think I should do? And she said, "Well, I went to business school. You might want to consider that. And I started looking into business school. Very quickly realized business school is not for me. Steven Evans 18:04 I see. Yeah. Sundeep 18:05 And that's I guess that's what made a dead end job. I think for other people it would have been a fine job, but it's not what I wanted. I suppose. Yeah. And then from there it took some time to figure everything out. But yeah, it was. But yeah, I think that that in terms of I guess your question was more about like like what were you what was I trying to do or correct like Steven Evans 18:28 when you think about your value system around like what matters and you know how did that change from freshman to junior year and even after? Sundeep 18:38 Boy, it sounds really shallow of me to say I just just I just needed money. Steven Evans 18:42 No, are you kidding? I feel like when it comes to the primary like sort of drivers, it's essential, right? Yeah. And like when it comes to also aligning your internal world around how you can, you know, make and then sort of manage and accumulate that that money, I don't think it is like a negative. Yeah, you know, I think it's something that can motivate. I think it's something. I think Sundeep 19:08 though, like one thing, though, because your question, which is a good question, is about what, like, how did I shape my values, or you know, what my values were, or like, what what I valued per se, and to be honest, the only answer I can give is money, and I would say that that is not a good way to conduct your life, because it can be very destructive. I don't think it ended up being that way for me, but I always think about you know one of my favorite things. I don't know if you know who David Foster Wallace is? He's an author. Well, he gave a speech, and it was a very good speech. I'm sure a lot of your audience will know it, but it's called "This Is Water. And anyway, one part of the speech, the the the crux of it is, there in day to day life, there's no such thing as an atheist. There are people who don't believe in God. But that doesn't mean that they believe in nothing. They believe in something, and the good and his kind of thesis is that the very good thing about believing in God is that it's the one thing that won't destroy you. So if you don't, so you know people can value money, and you will never feel like you have enough money. If you value money, you can value your youth, and you'll never feel young. You can value your beauty, and you'll never, and you'll always feel ugly, right? Like whatever it is that you replace that thing with is probably worse, and that's and to me, just as a rationalist, I think that just kind of makes sense as to like, okay, why does like religion exist, or why did religion become popular? Right. It's like, well, maybe it's the thing that keeps us from destroying ourselves, right? Right. And to some extent. So anyway, so I guess that's what I'm saying. Is like I think I did just believe in money, and I think for a long time I was driven by the, I had a lot of ambition. I would say, like starting around that, like after when when I was at Thompson Hawks, decided as a dead end job, I was just like I had to leave, and then I was just like, wow, I gotta find ways to like make money because I don't know what my life is gonna look like. And I'd say like for a solid decade, that's all I thought about is just like how do I make more money? How do I make more money? How do I make more money? Steven Evans 21:24 Yeah, Sundeep 21:24 I don't think it destroyed me ultimately because I think I was able to like have some perspective, but it wasn't the right path. Absolutely, wasn't. Yeah. Steven Evans 21:33 And would you say that's like a like a hindsight evaluation or something that you learned through going you know going through that path. I Sundeep 21:41 think everything I everything I've learned, I've done by touching that that touching that hot stove. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's just that's just how I learned. Yeah, yeah, Steven Evans 21:50 of course. And I feel like there's always I feel like elements and stories around you know how you learned those lessons. And like for me, I'm I'm curious around like was there anything in that you picked up in those seasons that you had to sort of reckon with later? Something that helped you in one part of your life, but then didn't help you in that next? Sundeep 22:12 Well, I think I'm going through that right now. There's certain part of me that still wants to be very ambitious and still wants to like, still wants to like perform well at work, so that I can then have some. I think it makes me feel more complete. You know, performance at work gives me fulfills my purpose still a little bit, and I'm battling that now because I don't. I think for the first time in my life, my work is not the primary thing that is important to me. So just trying to like figure that all out, you know. Yeah, that's it's it's an ongoing challenge. I think because my instincts say one thing, but you know, yeah, Steven Evans 23:06 definitely. And I definitely want to get there. I still I want to key him on you know your first role and also like what that transition was like from being a learner to you know someone who was accumulating knowledge, albeit untested, right? Sort of, you know, in a sandbox type of environment, and then transitioning to a worker where your output is what's valued, right? How did that affect your identity? You know, did that make you feel like I'm just a worker? Like Sundeep 23:37 I think it made me feel terrible. Speaker 1 23:38 Yeah, Sundeep 23:39 I think that's why I hated that job so much, and I actually think so. For the longest time, programming was kind of something I just kind of did a little bit for fun, I guess. And there's a very obvious reason to shift my career from sort of finance slash business to programming because at that point in time, that world was collapsing, but people didn't quite realize it immediately. But I was, you know, the whole like software is eating the world, right? It was that that was booming, so it made sense from that standpoint. But then also, I just kind of discovered, oh, in this world, you're always a learner, and that was fantastic for me. I found so much, like I, like immediately as soon as I started programming for a living, it almost it's like that thing where it's like my whole life I'm trying to make myself do something, but now I just naturally do the thing that this job requires me to do, just to learn. Steven Evans 24:37 Yeah, Sundeep 24:37 yeah. So so people are like, oh man, like I gotta learn like a new framework order. I'm like, please, like my favorite framework is the one I haven't tried yet. Like, you know, like I just that that's I'm just hungry for for that kind of knowledge and hungry for the new thing. Yeah, just the life like like truly, I think I am a lifelong learner, and that's what I would like to do for the rest of my life if I. Yeah, Steven Evans 25:00 yeah, and like, what was that change like? I mean, did it affect maybe the people you hung out with? You know, I'm sure people were like, you know, you're now learning this new thing, and you know, you're not, you know, here to hang with us anymore or party with us anymore. You know, or what was that transition, that change like? Sundeep 25:22 That's a good question. I don't know that I cared per se. That makes me sound maybe a little shallow, but like I I don't think I have the the amount of social needs that a lot of other people may have, I guess. I'm happiest when I'm in my study with a book. Steven Evans 25:47 Yeah, Sundeep 25:48 like so you know, so being in my study with a laptop, like trying to figure out, trying to build something. Hey, man, let's do it. Yeah, Steven Evans 25:56 and was there? I mean, anyone during that trans like transitory time who kind of came alongside and and gave you the encouragement or perhaps inspiration, you know, to pursue this new path. Sundeep 26:10 Yeah, yeah, actually. So, so I left Thomson Reuters. I just I had that sort of undergrad degree in computer programming and went to interview for a consulting company. It was a business intelligence consulting company in New Jersey called Axis Group. Very small place. Not a place that I thought would like launch my career or anything. But they gave me a good offer because I well, so I interviewed with their CEO, and you know, it was like a 50-person company. They had another headquarters down in Atlanta. You know they did a lot of consulting with companies to build out like BI solutions and stuff like that. And the whole like I must have interviewed with his name is Al Hughes, and I must have interviewed with him for like two hours. And I feel like most of that time we just talked about stuff that was interesting to us. It was just it's very much like the we are two very different people in many ways, but one way I think is just he's also a very curious person, and I'm a very curious person who just really vibed. So anyway, I joined that company. At that company, they recruit a lot from Georgia Tech, which is a very good engineering school, and so there was a guy there named Spyros Cocanus who was actually maybe two or three years my junior, and I just immediately like was like, oh, I want to follow that guy. Like I did, I like I just knew like that he was the guy there that was like doing interesting things. He was really into data visualization, you know, and I was like, cool, I'll get into data visualization. I would say that maybe he's a little bit more like single track minded, whereas like, I think still now he's maybe one of the you know best data people and data visual people and data design people that I've ever that I've ever met. He's very very talented, but you know, at that time I was like cool. I'll get into this with you, and so that and just he was just he had that same sort of like always want to do more, right? Like whatever we're doing now is not enough. We need to do more. We need to. And I just we just vibed a lot. Yeah, Steven Evans 28:14 it sounds like, you know, I'd love to hear from you about what that like unlocked in you, sort of. You know, it sounds like very different from you know, you know, early days, right? Yeah. What did that unlock? It sounds like inspiration. It sounds like horsepower. It sounds like another inspiration for Sundeep 28:32 sure. I think the thing is, like me and Spiros, we thought alike a lot and felt alike a lot, so that made sense. But actually, the guy was the actual mentor was Spiros's manager. This guy named Scott Reedy, who I don't even think he considers himself my manager, but I con or sorry my mentor, but I consider him to be one of the most important mentors I've ever had. Only because his mind works completely different from mine. He's got top notch executive function. He taught me so much about how to ask the why of what we're doing rather than just what we're doing, which was a big unlock for me. Just how to like think through problems to get to the real core of it. Like, just he's a very conscientious, deliberate thinker, very professional person, and I don't think I was the most professional employee at the time. And just I just, to be honest, a lot about being filling in the parts of being a man that I think I was not good at anymore, which I know is a lot to ask from a work mentor, but you know, yeah, just yeah. I think I used him as a role model of like what I needed to improve a lot, and it worked. It worked for me just because it it improved my weaknesses a lot, Steven Evans 29:56 and it sounds like it also helped. To solidify a like an earlier career trajectory for you, and that helped push you, you know, even now to years later to pursue what you're working on. Would is that correct, or would you say there are other curves in the road? Sundeep 30:17 No, I mean it was yeah. I think the biggest step for me was actually, yeah. So I was at Access Group for about five and a half years, and you know learned a lot. I wouldn't say there was much opportunity for advancement per se, because it it was like they were trying to become a bigger company, but you know that's always very difficult. You know, small business lifestyle, right? It's just it's it's hard to get to that next stage. I really enjoy going from company to company, just learning about different industries. You know, I worked a lot in for finance companies because they knew that's what I was interested in. But I also worked in for consortium health plans. I worked for Triumph Aero. Aero parts, like where they like, I literally sat on a factory floor there in Dallas, Texas. Yeah, just like you know, a travel company down in Birmingham, Alabama. Man, you couldn't couldn't have asked for a better a better job to just become a man all of a sudden, you know, just always going to a new client, having to like understand different people, you know. I'll always remember Triumph because I met the guy. He seemed like a really nice guy, and all of a sudden he was telling me about Hillary's emails, and I was just like, you know what? Just got yeah, but you got to roll with it, and you got to do a roll. You gotta stay professional, Steven Evans 31:41 right? Sundeep 31:41 You know. Anyway, yeah, yeah. It was it was great. And Steven Evans 31:45 like, it sounds like you know, in addition to the work and the trajectory that it pushed you toward, it helped to solidify what you had considered as being a man, right? You know, like you you allude to it here. You know, even saying you know, being a man in terms of just putting putting your nose to the grindstone and and learning and and producing for company, you know, you know, what were some of those pieces that made sense then? Sundeep 32:13 Sure, just being more deliberate about and intentional about what I was doing, I think was a big thing. I was a little haphazard in the way that I worked on things, and just also just taking ownership of things. You know, just saying like, "Hey, this thing is mine now. I own this relationship, you know, with this client, so you know, and putting in the work that that involves instead of just being like, well, somebody will tell me what to do. You know, just taking the bull by the horns. Steven Evans 32:51 Yeah, Sundeep 32:52 not being like a passenger per se, and you know, yeah, just trying to make an impact past like checking some boxes, Steven Evans 33:02 right? And it sounds like accountability was a big thing. Yeah, it sounds like you know say what Sundeep 33:09 you're gonna do and do what you're gonna say. Steven Evans 33:11 Yeah, Sundeep 33:11 yeah. Scott Reedy, by the way, is a is a this southern boy from from Atlanta, Georgia. So he's got a lot of those kind of sayings. Nice, amazing. Steven Evans 33:20 He sounds like a good guy. Yes, he is. Yeah, and I mean, I feel like you know this period was sort of positive, exciting for you. It was felt like you were putting one foot in front of the and the next, and you were climbing in this time. Sundeep 33:36 Right. Yes, but then you know did hit a wall. You know, because there's only so much room for improvement there. At some level, for consulting companies like that, you have to become a salesperson, and I'm not a salesperson. I tried to be. I was a sales engineer for a little bit, right? Yeah. Which was good. There's certain elements of sales that I think I'm very good at, but there's certain elements that I'm not, and so it wasn't the perfect fit, I'd say, as far as like you know the other stuff like actually programming, Steven Evans 34:02 yeah. Sundeep 34:02 And actually, it was when I met my now wife. She actually, when I told her this once, she said, "Oh wow, I hope that's not the reason why you did. But honestly, I'm sorry, but it was. I'd met her, and she gave very good career advice. I was consulting at the time at Condé Nast in New York, and they-it was very obvious that they wanted me to come work for them instead of instead of being a consultant through this consultancy, and I wasn't going to make that leap, but and she says she didn't push me towards it, but I'm tell you right now that she did, and I think I needed that. I think I needed somebody to say like, yes, you had very good experiences, but you got to look at what the next thing is. And so I did it. It was a little bit like stabbing everyone in the back, right? Because these are all people that I like, and. You know, in this world, it's not considered the greatest thing if you're if you hire somebody from the consultancy. Like they had to be some backroom dealing about other stuff, like you know projects and all that kind of stuff, to make that deal happen, right? So it wasn't the most comfortable thing in the world, but I mean, what helped is that both Scott and Spiros were like, "Hey, really loved working with you, and like, if you think this is the right decision, you should do it. I also, at that point, thought that I should try to be a manager, which wasn't going to happen at Access, at least not the way that I wanted it to. So, you know, I was able to do that. I kind of asked. That was kind of my excuse. Of course, you can only learn by doing, and turns out that I'm a terrible manager, and I should never manage. But I can only find that out by doing it. Yeah, Steven Evans 35:51 and and giving a shot, you know, and giving it a try. Sundeep 35:54 Yeah, very much the story of my life. You could tell me all sorts of things, but I'll never quite take it in until I try it and either fail or succeed. That's just Steven Evans 36:04 how else can you know except for what other somebody else tells you. Sundeep 36:08 I don't know. Some people manage to not touch that stove when they're told it's hot. Yes, I have to try it. I Steven Evans 36:14 have to try it myself as well, and I think that's part of you know the search and part of you know the reason for the show, yeah, Steven Evans 36:21 you know, and I think when it comes to the working years, you know, I would say before perhaps you met your partner and like the that span of time, you know, you can tend. There's like a moment when you can begin to feel like who you who you are separates from what you're doing, yeah. You know, and like, did you experience that in that time of your life, or was that something that emerged maybe later? Sundeep 36:51 If who you are diverges from what you're doing, that's an interesting concept. Can you expand on that a little Steven Evans 36:57 bit? Sure. So, for I would say for me, it emerged where I was at Columbia, you know, trying to figure out what was going to be my next step, and I was, you know, I didn't have enough credits to graduate, so I needed to go to summer school to figure out what it, you know, to add more credits. But then also, I used it to finish up my major to say, okay, like I'm majoring political theory and economics and like these are the courses that are going to be the capstone, and I found like that that pressure to conform to perhaps like what the institutions of my time required of me really separated me from my sense of self, and I, you know, I felt like who I was on the inside wasn't what was wasn't aligned with what was expected of me on the outside. You know, have you ever experienced anything like that? Sundeep 37:53 That's so interesting to me that you are able to make that distinction only because I, I do. Let me let me break away from the work. You've been asked to dance before, Steven Evans 38:12 of course. Yeah. How did that Sundeep 38:14 make you feel? Steven Evans 38:15 Well, if it initially everyone Sundeep 38:18 feels a different way, but you know, Steven Evans 38:19 initially very nervous. Everyone's gonna watch me and see that I can't dance. So Sundeep 38:24 that's what everyone assumes I feel when I say no, I can't. But it actually feels like I'm being asked to do something that is against who I am, and I don't. It's the dumbest thing in the world. I'm not gonna pretend like it's yeah. Anyway, so but I I have always take that to be well. I just got to be better at this. I never take it as well. This thing is is bad. I guess like it never occurred to me to look at it more like oh, what they're asking of me is bad for my sense of self, but rather that I should change myself to accommodate what's being asked of me. Steven Evans 39:06 Well, it sounds like what you had done is is the latter, where you did change in order to accommodate what was being asked, in order to continue to grow and to continue to learn. Sundeep 39:19 Yeah, that actually reminds me that in one of my reviews, Scott told me, you know, we're doing prose and what she he said. I have a very strong sense of service, and ever since he said that, it was just it was almost I don't even think that he said it as like a big thing. It was almost a throwaway line, but just the kind of dude that is just very perceptive. And ever since he said that, I've always kind of wondered about that. And I think I've kind of leaned into that a lot. Steven Evans 39:50 Yeah, Sundeep 39:51 yeah. I mean, like even at work, I'm just like, hey, who needs me to do something? Let me go do it, right? Yeah. So I I don't really think about it from the other angle, which I think. It's very valid. I just don't know that I've ever thought about it that way. Like, you know. Yeah. Steven Evans 40:06 Yeah, and I guess you know you mentioned meeting your wife, and when you know you decided to you know partner and get married, right? Yeah. You know when all of the you know responsibility of that marriage and then you know the children begin to arrive. Did that change that sense of identity you had, or perhaps did it conflict with it in any ways, or was did it all align? You know, this was what I'm supposed to do. Sundeep 40:33 Yeah, I mean, I can even tell you, like, there was actually a very specific period in my life when I decided I wanted to have kids, it was actually fairly late. I believe I was about 30. It was before I'd met Nettie, and I was hungover. And best decisions Steven Evans 40:53 come from from that time. Honestly, yes. Sundeep 40:56 I've learned over time that there's a such thing as like dehydration euphoria that, and also like other things that might be affecting the mind when you're that hungover. So I don't know, but I still remember it, and it had an impact on my life. And I, I don't know, I just remember thinking, I, I just remember thinking how much I appreciated my parents and my grandma, the the three people who are closest to me, and especially my dad and my grandma, I would say. And I just remember thinking, like, boy, I would really like to have something of them left in the world. And from there, I was just like, well, I think the way you do that is to have kids. And I was just like, I don't know. It it seems like a very weird reason to want kids, but at the same time, now I look at my kids and I see so much of myself and so much of Nee in Steven Evans 41:49 them, and Sundeep 41:49 I and you know Nettie's a person that I love, and like I would want to see that continued in the world, and I just like that reflection of it, which I guess some people view as very narcissistic. I view as more just like my love of the people who raised me makes me want to honor them in a way. Anyway, that was my that was my thinking at the time. Again, I was very Steven Evans 42:14 hungover, but still very special. It had Sundeep 42:17 a real effect on me. Very special, very Steven Evans 42:19 real, you know, and like especially, you know, someone who you know has lost a lost a parent, I and and then named our firstborn son Kaden after her, right? I completely get it. Completely get it. And what do Sundeep 42:33 you think about? Because I've heard this before. There's a lot of people who don't want to have kids, and I and I understand. I don't think everyone should have to have kids. I think you should make whatever decision you have. But they do make the point that it is, or some of them do, that is an inherently narcissistic thing to want to do. Steven Evans 42:51 Yeah, I I disagree. For me, for for me, I feel like it can be if you want your kids to be a just an extension of your story, right? Speaker 2 43:01 If Steven Evans 43:02 if they become you know sort of like and you know and then I had kids and then they did this thing which reflects on me in some way. Speaker 3 43:12 Yeah, Steven Evans 43:12 for me it was always you know I'm bringing into this world like a unique human who has in and of themselves talents that are latent that you don't really know, and as a parent, you have almost as like a gardener get to see what those talents and what those things are, and you get to prune away the things that are getting in the way of the best parts, but bring out from them their unique talents and their unique thing that they are meant to bring to the world, and that's sort of how I I see parenting. It's not necessarily a narcissistic extension myself. It's like so. It's Sundeep 43:46 a matter of a degree rather than you know, like it's okay to see some of yourself and your kids, but when you get to the point of like, you know, you have to go, you have to go to the big leagues because I never did, you know. Yeah, yeah, those kinds of things, Steven Evans 44:03 right? I feel like that can be really, in some ways, harmful and and limiting and all the above. I feel like for for me at least, and this doesn't have to be for everybody, but it's always for me about seeing the unique unique elements of my kids that are different actually from me. Sundeep 44:20 You ever see anything in your kids that's not like you at all, and you're very appreciative about it? Steven Evans 44:24 Oh yeah, big time. Yes, I think it's probably the most humbling elements of being a parent when they do things differently from you, and also the most challenging at the same time because you don't know how to deal with it because you've never experienced it. You know, you never experienced that point of view, or you never looked at that, you know, that leaf or that butterfly in that way, and Sundeep 44:46 yeah, you Steven Evans 44:46 know, you've never, it's never been as magical for you, but but Sundeep 44:51 it is to them. Yeah, I recently realized this with my daughter because I took her to some, to some. Birthdays, and I went with her on a school trip, and I just got a chance to view her with other kids her age. And actually, going back to what I was saying about how, like, your your question about like you know what's being asked of you taking away from yourself, but I always view it as what's being asked of me. How can I change myself to meet what's being asked of me? Steven Evans 45:25 Right. Sundeep 45:26 She does not feel that at all, and I've seen her do this before, where somebody is doing an activity she doesn't want to do, and she just says no. Steven Evans 45:34 Yeah, Sundeep 45:35 not for me. Steven Evans 45:36 Not for me. Sundeep 45:36 I was. I. I. I. I don't think I ever had the confidence to say that. I don't think. I don't think I had the personality to say that. It's just so different from me. I think it is. It is more like my wife. I think in a lot of ways. And but yeah, just seeing that because there's so much other things about her that I see that's in me as well. But like seeing that, it's it is magical. Actually, it's like seeing a version of you that is also very very different from you, Steven Evans 46:05 exactly very strange. Yeah, yeah. I mean, was there anything about that difference that, or maybe preparing for their arrival or in the early days that like blindsided you? Something you weren't ready for, or felt you weren't ready for, but had to grow into. It's Sundeep 46:30 a good question. I mean, I will say that a lot of things that I was not ready for, my wife does such a great job of picking up the slack on that, I don't have a high executive function, so even things like, like they're gonna. So my daughter's gonna go to kindergarten soon. My son is gonna start at a new preschool. There's school supplies to be bought. Steven Evans 46:55 Yeah, Sundeep 46:56 she's already on that. Incredible. I didn't even start thinking about it, you know. I I am not good at. I'm going on vacation tomorrow. I have not finished packing yet. I'm gonna go home now. I have a five a.m. Uber, and I will pack before I go to sleep. Hopefully, or I'll pack. Anyway, that's me and that's my wife, and it's just you can't do that with kids. You can't wait till the night before to buy the school supplies, you know. And it's just you know having this just and just like we have to rotate out their clothes now. Speaker 2 47:35 Yep. Sundeep 47:35 You know we have a boy girl and he can wear some of her stuff, but I'm not gonna put him in a dress, you know, unless he wants it, Steven Evans 47:41 correct. Sundeep 47:42 So you know, we gotta go through their clothes and figure out what they need there. Little worried that they're getting a little stuck in what they eat or don't eat, and you know, what new foods can we provide? I mean, like that. This is all stuff that Danny does. Yeah, just and I'm not, and I'm not prepared. I was never prepared to do that, and I am still trying to pick up the slack on that. But yeah, that's that is not my strong suit for sure. Steven Evans 48:08 And I think was given that this was something that you struggled with, or perhaps like came came out of the blue as a new thing to grow into. You know how had that? How did that affect your sense of self? Right, your sense of who you were. Did it sort of shake you? Like, oh, stop me shitty. Yeah, Sundeep 48:28 yeah. That's a part of me. That's like, what's being expected of me? How can I change myself? It's very hard when that thing I have to change is the thing that's I struggle with the most, which is that executive function. Yeah. Steven Evans 48:40 Yep. Sundeep 48:41 I have a subscription for Amazon underwear because I don't want to think about having enough underwear. Steven Evans 48:49 That's fair. That's fair. I know some people who, instead of washing their underwear, just buy more. So they they throw out the old underwear. So don't worry. That's where like my cheapness is sort of like Sundeep 49:03 fighting with like no, but same, you know. And it's just boy, if I could just do a subscription, that would just like take care of all my kids' like supply needs and get them. Actually, yeah, I mean, I'm sure that stuff exists, and I'm sure my my wife is probably already taking care of subscriptions there because I can't even do that, but yeah, no, it makes me feel shitty. It does, because that's something that your kids need. You know, it's just you know, you can talk about being a provider all you want, but you know, that's that's a lot of labor to stay on top of that. Steven Evans 49:33 It's a lot, and I feel like it's something that I wouldn't, I never would have known without having kids, right? The the mental load that is shared in in not necessarily a fair way because it's it's usually 7030 favored on the partner that is keyed into the kids' needs. So for me, that's my wife who is keyed in on everything they need. From camp to school to sports to whatever, and you know, for me, it's always I'm always lagging a bit behind her, you know, trying to catch up. Oh, you know, I'll realize too late that I needed to do my second son's you know laundry for him to go to school the next day, and she's already on it. Sundeep 50:18 Both of our wives work. Steven Evans 50:20 Yeah, Sundeep 50:20 we don't have that excuse. Steven Evans 50:21 No, Sundeep 50:21 we can't be like, well, I do the work. Steven Evans 50:23 Nope, Sundeep 50:23 that was always my dad's thing, right? He's like, I work, my wife takes care of, just fine. Steven Evans 50:27 Very traditional arrangement, by the way. Then, so, and it doesn't work in my view today because everyone, at least in our home, we try to keep things as balanced as possible, even though it tends to not be as balanced, and I share your experience where I wish that I was able to have the foresight to do things before they were required. Sundeep 50:54 Yeah, Steven Evans 50:55 you know, like the planning element, right? I've never been a great planner. I kind of just jump into experiences and and figure it out. Have you heard the Sundeep 51:03 feedback before? Like, how did you not see this? Steven Evans 51:05 Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. So it's part of I feel like the learning curve associated with growing into this new role of father. Sundeep 51:14 Yeah. Steven Evans 51:15 That is is it's not called out. It's not said like if you want to have a child, you better get good at planning. It's never, you know, you're not in the delivery room, and the doctor's like, so do you have your, you know, binder reminder? Do you have your, you know, your calendar ready? It's just like, here you go. Here's this loaf of joy, and good luck. It's the exact Sundeep 51:37 opposite of how I felt going into programming, where I was just like, I went to program, and I'm like, oh, it's now good to get lost into a problem and not emerge until it's done. Yeah, like to like just you know, I I sometimes equate it to just sinking into a warm bath because I'm just like, just let me just sit here and just do this thing until it's you know just immerse myself in the problem here. Right. And now it's just like no, don't immerse yourself in anything because there's like five different things I need to get done. Steven Evans 52:12 Right. Right. Sundeep 52:13 If you focus on one thing and only one thing, your four other things are going to go to shit. Correct. It's just I'm just like how, but I think the thing Steven Evans 52:22 we're sort of kind of pointing toward is this sense of knowing yourself really well and like being okay with the things you are able to do and also being okay with the things you aren't great at. Speaker 2 52:36 Yeah, Steven Evans 52:37 and being all right saying to your partner or to a friend or community, like I might need help here because I'm not good at this. Sundeep 52:45 And actually, this is all very new for me. But like one of the things that I've realized actually helps more is to divide the labor. And again, very new. I'm still trying this out, but I'm trying to just take care of my wife's needs instead. As weird as that sounds, I'm just like you know what, kids just leave the kids aside. What can I do to be with my wife to to you know to meet her needs because she can handle all the other stuff. I mean, it's not easy, but she can do it. Right. But as long as as long as there's somebody else, like at least that's the conclusion that I'm coming to. Is like you know, and then that makes it easier for me because now instead of having like all these different things, I'm just like, hey, what can I do today or this week that would make my connection with my wife better, right? Anyway, we'll see how it goes. I I'm not going to pretend I have all the answers here. No, no, I hear you, and Steven Evans 53:49 it sounds like though that theme of being open to one not having the answer, but then also being open to learning what how to get that answer, is still present in that that resolution you just even said. You know, hey, I I might not be able to do everything that you can do, and what it seems like you're doing is natural, and you make it seem easy, even though for me it's not right. Sundeep 54:17 Yeah, Steven Evans 54:18 I am able. I want to learn how to do that, and in order in order to learn that, I I'm gonna be here with you. Sundeep 54:25 Yeah, yeah, but this just I just feel like at some level I just had to accept that there's some things I'm never gonna learn to be good at. Right, I'm not gonna be able to anticipate their needs. The school supplies thing really took me for a loop because I'm like, it's July and she's like, yeah, but it's gonna be September soon, and they're gonna send and like we have to, oh, aftercare. I didn't even think about aftercare. She's like, yeah, we have to be like on this thing for aftercare to sign up for it. I'm just like, oh jeez, like that's a, yeah, I don't know. There's no way. There's just I. I just don't see any way I'm going to be able to do that. But if I focus on making other things good for her, maybe I can contribute that way instead. I don't know. Just try to play towards my strengths. Steven Evans 55:10 Right. Sundeep 55:11 I'm sure. I mean, like you know, I'm sure there's things that you do with your kids that are more your strengths, right? Steven Evans 55:16 Yeah. I think for me, for better for worse, I have a a risk taking streak. So I like, you know, I like to introduce my kids to experiences that are safe, but also that push them a bit out of their comfort zone. Sundeep 55:31 Yes, Steven Evans 55:32 and I feel like whether or not they are happy about that is beside the point in a way. I really want to get them comfortable with seeing approaching their limit, and maybe taking a step over that line and seeing what what that feels like, and getting comfortable with that. You know, yeah, I feel like for me that is the first steps toward building something. You know, because there's never really, I feel like anything that's within the boundaries of safe, you know, the within the boundaries of what people have done already, that can be extraordinary. Sundeep 56:10 Yeah, Steven Evans 56:11 you know, and that's what I feel like we all hope for for our kids. Sundeep 56:14 No, I definitely, I definitely try to do that as much as because I know Nettie's not going to be the one to like. She always tells them, "Oh, you don't have to do that, and I'm like, "You don't have to, but that'd be that'd make it make me really happy if you did. Not above using a little bit of guilt. Steven Evans 56:31 No, but I feel like that's part of the dad role as well. Sundeep 56:34 Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is for me at least, and you, I guess. Yeah, Steven Evans 56:38 yeah. Sundeep 56:39 I've also realized that my kids are more scared of my yelling voice than my. So I I use it sparingly, but you know I actually just had to use it before I came here, and I and I heard because my daughter was yelling at my wife about something, and I just said I yelled back and said you cannot talk to your mother that way. Like, they shut her up right away. But as I was leaving, I could hear her telling Nettie, "Why did he tell me to stop? That hurt my feelings. Yes, and then he'd be like, "But you were yelling at me, so he yelled. I was like, "Yep. I was like, "I gotta, you gotta be careful when you use this. Yeah, Steven Evans 57:20 but I feel like it's it sets up the priorities, right? It it makes clear, and I think that's helpful and reassuring to children also, in that you know like it was it was me and your mom, and now because of me and your mom, it is now you, and so because she she's she's my number one. Yeah. So if you know you guys want to try to you know get in between me and my number one, that's not going to work. And like you know, I always always say you know we're with whether it's Caden or Aaron who are maybe they're having attitude about breakfast and Melly had made them and they're just like you know I don't want it, or like, can you can you get me milk instead of water and like, you know that kind of stuff, right? And I'm like, you know, your mom made you breakfast, like she woke up early for you to like make this, and like, regardless of if it's the most tasty thing for you or not, you got to eat it. Yeah, you know, and I feel like it's those lessons, right, that they learn. Sundeep 58:20 Yeah, yeah, I mean, what do you? This is maybe going like to a completely different topic. I'm not so sure, but sure. What do you hope for your kids? Steven Evans 58:31 Yeah, I. For me, when I think of their future, for me, it's one to be able to be insightful about their own internal world around the reasons why they do things. So if they're able to, you know, say, "I did this thing, and even if it didn't turn out well, they're able to say, "I did it for this reason. I think that would be key because that will connect for me their understanding of their emotions and how that then leads to their actions. Sundeep 59:07 Yeah, that's a yeah. There's actually a. It's gonna sound like I'm so off my own ass, but there's no there's there's a hedge there's a hedge fund manager. I'm sorry. It's just it's the work. I work for hedge fund now, so like that, whatever. I read a lot of stuff from other hedge funds. Sure, but the hedge fund manager says that about investment style because you know when you're a portfolio manager for discretionary, you know investments, you know like all of the risk is on your head, right? All the decisions on your head. You obviously you work with a bunch of analysts, and you know they're all feeding stuff, but it's all on you. And he always says like the number one thing is to know thyself. Yeah, know who you are, know why you're making the decisions, why you're making it, and know whether you'll be able to live with the decisions you're making, as opposed to like anything else. Only. Because in this business, there's a lot of like looking at other people, so a lot of portfolio managers might be tempted to do something because somebody else is doing it. But no, like you got to you have to know who you are and why you're doing it. Because without that conviction, you won't be able to stand by your decision. Steven Evans 1:00:18 Right. Anyway. Yeah. So yeah, Sundeep 1:00:20 it reminded me a lot of that, and I think that's yeah, that's powerful. Steven Evans 1:00:23 Thanks. I mean, how about for you? Sundeep 1:00:28 What do I hope for my kids? I mostly hope that they find meaning and happiness. Yeah, I am a little worried about that specific thing, only because so I have some family members who've done very well for themselves, and they have kids who are now grown. And one of the things that I see in those kids is this sort of like cynicism and sense of like ennui. Is that the is that the word? Just sort of like lazing about, you know, without really having any firm convictions. I think of one particular cousin I have who has his own business, and you know his business has done well, and you know he's moderately rich now, and he just always complains that his kids like you know, because we've talked about you know what do your kids want to do and he says you know like oh like if if if he because his kid is now doing sort of doing he's teaching kids with like who are on the spectrum right yeah that he's a teacher noble calling whatever Steven Evans 1:01:40 right Sundeep 1:01:41 part of the reason that he can do that because it doesn't pay a lot is because his father is very well to do, and his father is like, I don't care that he does this, but I want him to show passion for it. I said like, well, he's not making a lot of money doing this, so he must have somebody. He said, no, he he's got to be like talking about it. He's got to be like you know telling me about like, you know, like, you know about articles that he's read or studies that like he's got to show the passion for it. There's no passion for it. Anyway, I think he's a little bit up his own ass there a little bit. But one thing I'll say is that he owns his own business. He's very passionate about Speaker 4 1:02:16 it. He's he's Sundeep 1:02:16 worked very hard. He's just he's just all like he built it from the ground up by himself. Anyway, I hope my kids are more like that than the, you know, just going through life looking for the easy thing to do. I guess. Yeah. I don't know. I just want them to find meaning in what they do. I suppose. Yeah. Steven Evans 1:02:38 Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's the meaning and connection, I feel like is is the best way. I guess the best thing we can try to provide as parents, and it's it's elusive because there are things that you think you do, yeah, you know, to show them that connection, but it's it doesn't resonate for them in the same way. Sundeep 1:03:00 If I could ask you some personal question, but like, did you grow up in a lower like socioeconomic status than you're in now? Steven Evans 1:03:11 I would say I was lucky because my my dad is a general surgeon, so he he worked at University Pittsburgh Medical Center, and so he was, you know, surgeon working, you know, 6060-five, hours a week, if not more. And my mom, she retired because she actually she was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, so she retired. But prior, she was an anesthesiologist, so I always joked that she would, you know, put patients to sleep, and my dad would sort of chop them up, you know, right? So that was the their partnership, and also part of how they met. And so I, you know, upper middle class, and I always felt disconnected from that reality for a very very long time, and that was part of why I deferred from Colombia because I didn't want to just continue in that vein, right? Mindlessly of just you know accepting the luck and the goodness that I had been afforded, you know. So it Sundeep 1:04:12 sounds like that's kind of what I see my kids like. I can see it them facing that as well, which is not something that necessarily out. I mean, again, I was afforded a lot of privileges. For one thing, I could just like not have a job or not have a career for a while. My parents didn't ask me any questions. Like, how many people really have that kind of privilege? But Steven Evans 1:04:36 yeah, Sundeep 1:04:36 at the same time, I just feel like you know they'll probably. I mean, hey, fingers, toes, everything crossed. But they probably won't have to worry about money as much as I did. But like, I just, I just hope that they find. Yeah, I just hope that they figure it out. I know, I know, you're trying to figure out yourself. And yeah, I don't know. It's a Steven Evans 1:05:03 yeah, and I think Sundeep 1:05:04 the affluenza thing, huh? Steven Evans 1:05:05 Correct, but it allows. I feel like it affords them, and I hope this for you know all kids who are in this position, and even folks who are like just arriving, you know, perhaps after years and years of hard work in this place, you know, like, of you know, what do what matters to me, right? And why does that thing matter? You know, it could be anything from develop devoting yourself to service, you know, as your brother or your cousin had had done, or you know, devoting yourself to a cause, devoting yourself to lifelong learning and development of new skills and habits, right? Those things I think are opportunities, but I also feel like there's something to be learned from the hard times too. Sundeep 1:05:55 Yeah, Steven Evans 1:05:56 where you don't have enough money, right? Where you don't have the job, you don't have the friends. You don't have the community to make ends meet, and you really have to sort of look inward to say, "Okay, is this it? Is this my end, or is not? And that those questions, those like moments, are really. I love diving into those moments because I really think it matters. It it impacts who you become after. Sundeep 1:06:25 Yeah, it's interesting. There's the there's the thought that I've always had, and I don't know. Like, I don't want to make light of like mental illness or anything like that for sure, but you know, I was talking with. Listen, I have a huge family, so when I say cousin, it's gonna be like cousin's another one of my cousin's kids. Sure. So again, younger, early 20s, whatever. And I, I, you know, he'd mentioned that he was, you know, having some issues like depression, all those things, and we just got to talking, and something that I said that like he took a little bit of issue with it, and I don't blame him for it, but I said like, you know, like you have the opportunity to be depressed, and that does make life harder. Like, if you are poor and you don't know where your next meal is coming from, I've never been in that position. But I'm just saying, there's no room for depression, right? Like, you don't get to think about it. It, it, it, it's almost like, at some point, I feel like we just need to all look around and be like, how uncommon is our current position for the entirety of humanity. Steven Evans 1:07:43 I agree. Sundeep 1:07:43 Us having all of our basic needs just taken care of and just giving us the opportunity to think about what we might want is almost the cause. I don't know. I guess it's a very Buddhist slash Hindu sentiment, but like you know, what is the cause of suffering, but it's you know the desire for more. I guess Steven Evans 1:08:05 yes. Sundeep 1:08:05 Yeah, I don't know. It's yeah. I I don't really have anywhere I was going with that other than I think Steven Evans 1:08:14 it's a good insight. Sundeep 1:08:14 Yeah, Steven Evans 1:08:15 you know the ability, and maybe ability is not the right word. It could be a curse. It could be a blessing. But having the space, if you will, to consider your current situation, comparing it against where you'd like to be, I think that that's that's consideration Sundeep 1:08:40 is Steven Evans 1:08:40 a luxury because, as you mentioned, there are people who don't have that, and I I constantly am trying to think about what that what that is what that means to the person who's going through that, and how different their evaluation and then decisions following that must be. So you know we'll we'll definitely have those conversations with folks on the podcast as well. You know who have come from very very little and have molded themselves through that experience and have found greatness and throughout, you know, later, and that that's the that's the hope of the show. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a lot to think about for sure. Yeah, and you know, I always like to ask, you know, if you were in in like in closing, I suppose, you know, if you were to look back across the sort of full arc of your life, you know, not the version you designed, but the one you actually lived. You know, what what's the thing that turned out to matter to the most? You know, maybe not a lesson, but just what your own life showed you that you couldn't have seen from the beginning. Sundeep 1:09:59 That's a really good question. So, just looking backwards, what has mattered the most? Okay, I actually think I have a, I do have an answer for this. Actually, for me at least, it was all the points of my life that I decided to do something, and I know I've talked about this before. Like I'm like got the kind of personality where it's just like I have to see for myself, right? I have to touch that stove. I have to. I keep using that one thing. I'm not touching stoves all over the place, but I just and I think about the points of my life that I'm most disappointed by, and it's the points of my life that I decided not to do a thing. I think that inaction has been the worst thing that I've done. Any of the actions I've taken, mistakes or otherwise, have turned out to be far better than the times in which I decided to not do anything, and that doesn't hold in all facets of life. For instance, just professionally speaking, I would say never evaluate your investments that way. Probably the best thing to do with investments is to not do anything with them. But but in in life, in terms of like making decisions, yeah, I think this is actually a business philosophy espoused by Jeff Bezos. I want to say, where he talks about why he makes so many decisions. Because for any decision that you make, the the decision it's it's most likely that you can undo that decision if it's wrong, but if it's right, then the rightness compounds and compounds and compounds and compounds. So you know, to use a very specific example, like me deciding with the help of my wife, although she denies it now, to leave that job, that you know that consultant job to go elsewhere was a just is still compounding to this date. I lead a far, far different life than I would have left led, far better life than I than I would have led if I'd stayed there. And you know, it could it actually was a mistake. Actually, Connie Mass was not a good place for me. My next place was not a good place for me. But the third place I went to was the right place for me, so just doing things has just compounded for me in ways that I could not have even imagined, and I try to always remember that now. Steven Evans 1:12:32 That's awesome. Thank you. Thank you for being here, and and thank you for telling the truth and for sharing your story with our our audience. It means a whole lot. Thank you. Sundeep 1:12:41 I actually really want to go back and listen to all the other episodes now because got a lot lot to think about.