WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript 

00:00:00.053 --> 00:00:02.233
Hello and welcome back
to The 10, 000 Things.

00:00:02.233 --> 00:00:03.643
My name is Sam Ellis.

00:00:03.873 --> 00:00:04.203
I'm Joe Loh.

00:00:04.737 --> 00:00:09.330
And today we're going to celebrate our
return with a reading of Desiderata,

00:00:09.360 --> 00:00:10.770
which many will already know.

00:00:11.650 --> 00:00:13.150
Yes, maybe they will.

00:00:13.160 --> 00:00:15.420
Firstly though, Sam, I just
want to say Happy New Year.

00:00:15.910 --> 00:00:16.760
Happy New Year, Joe.

00:00:17.010 --> 00:00:18.490
It's good to be back in the cave.

00:00:19.620 --> 00:00:21.230
Essential and great.

00:00:21.390 --> 00:00:23.020
Yeah, lovely to see you.

00:00:23.300 --> 00:00:27.080
It was lovely to run into
you, uh, very coincidentally.

00:00:27.530 --> 00:00:31.490
On the peninsula over summer too,
just loping down the street towards

00:00:31.490 --> 00:00:38.250
the cafe, looking like someone quite
strung out, sort of on edge, in

00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:39.920
somewhere I never thought I'd see you.

00:00:40.785 --> 00:00:41.665
It was very strange.

00:00:41.695 --> 00:00:42.515
All of that true.

00:00:43.045 --> 00:00:46.505
Uh, it was a parallel mirror
image inverse, you know, was it?

00:00:46.545 --> 00:00:47.325
Wacky World.

00:00:47.995 --> 00:00:50.415
Cause normally, you might see me in
Lorne or somewhere like that, but

00:00:50.425 --> 00:00:56.065
there I was in Rye on the Mornington
Peninsula and not my usual place at all.

00:00:56.105 --> 00:00:59.715
Had a couple of great beach days and
it was raining and I was running to

00:00:59.715 --> 00:01:05.485
get a coffee and I think I had some
other thing on my mind and I can't

00:01:05.485 --> 00:01:07.465
remember, but then suddenly you're there.

00:01:07.785 --> 00:01:08.535
Pulling up.

00:01:08.605 --> 00:01:09.065
Yeah.

00:01:09.135 --> 00:01:09.865
Kid in the front.

00:01:09.865 --> 00:01:13.785
Yeah, I had the 11 year old
and she said, Oh, looks like

00:01:13.785 --> 00:01:15.005
we're going on a side quest.

00:01:15.049 --> 00:01:15.679
She's on to it.

00:01:15.829 --> 00:01:19.379
So we went on a side quest and saw
the ocean beach and it was beautiful.

00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:20.169
It was very cool.

00:01:20.269 --> 00:01:24.129
And you spoke to her like she was an
adult, which included quite a lot of

00:01:24.129 --> 00:01:25.739
swearing, which I didn't pull you up on.

00:01:25.904 --> 00:01:26.544
Oh, yeah.

00:01:26.614 --> 00:01:30.241
And, discussions about the difficult
nature of adult relationships.

00:01:30.241 --> 00:01:34.461
And I think she really appreciated, I
think she found it refreshing that she

00:01:34.461 --> 00:01:36.451
was involved in an adult conversation.

00:01:36.611 --> 00:01:37.981
She had worthwhile things to say.

00:01:38.561 --> 00:01:41.861
Yeah, she said, she did remark
afterwards that you sound like

00:01:41.861 --> 00:01:45.321
you're on a podcast even when you're
just in the backseat of a car.

00:01:45.496 --> 00:01:48.706
Well, either art imitates life
or whatever, but she's just

00:01:48.706 --> 00:01:50.106
used to hearing me talk on that.

00:01:50.226 --> 00:01:52.196
So that's, that's the context, I guess.

00:01:52.196 --> 00:01:55.186
I mean, I was having a similar experience.

00:01:55.313 --> 00:01:56.943
She did say it's like having a podcast.

00:01:56.943 --> 00:01:58.933
It's like being in, it's like
listening to the podcast.

00:01:58.963 --> 00:02:00.613
Cause not just me, you were there as well.

00:02:01.073 --> 00:02:01.433
Yeah.

00:02:01.573 --> 00:02:04.733
And so you told her the origin story,
which is of course us being on a

00:02:04.733 --> 00:02:07.013
road trip and having a big old chat.

00:02:07.463 --> 00:02:07.973
Yeah.

00:02:08.193 --> 00:02:08.933
It's very us.

00:02:08.943 --> 00:02:09.283
It's very canon.

00:02:09.373 --> 00:02:12.423
And then look, I put the ball in your
court for us to get together and record.

00:02:13.558 --> 00:02:17.855
And here we are, last minute call up
I got this morning and it's constantly

00:02:17.855 --> 00:02:20.925
fraught whether we can ever actually
get in the same shed together.

00:02:21.014 --> 00:02:21.575
That's right.

00:02:21.695 --> 00:02:24.925
you know, who knows what the
frequency will be in 2025, Sam,

00:02:24.925 --> 00:02:26.655
but it's nice to have you here.

00:02:26.945 --> 00:02:31.655
Well, one of my New Year's resolutions
is to just sort of work out the

00:02:31.655 --> 00:02:37.185
schedule and have things in places
and have some predictable, more

00:02:37.185 --> 00:02:39.805
predictability, I think there's way more
predictability than there used to be.

00:02:40.755 --> 00:02:46.215
So, that's the usual, sort of, unavoidable
KPIs, go to work, make sure the kids are

00:02:46.215 --> 00:02:49.495
fed and the house is clean and, you know,
the clothes are washed and all that.

00:02:49.865 --> 00:02:55.755
But there's other key things that
I think must be done for, um.

00:02:56.165 --> 00:02:59.745
You know, life to have its full meaning
and potential and it's things like this.

00:02:59.765 --> 00:03:00.915
Everyone gotta have a hobby.

00:03:00.935 --> 00:03:01.975
Gotta have a hobby, right?

00:03:01.995 --> 00:03:04.125
Yeah, and if you don't sketch it
People have been saying this to me

00:03:04.125 --> 00:03:09.145
for I mean, my breakup was, my breakup
is coming up on nine years now.

00:03:09.365 --> 00:03:09.795
Whoa.

00:03:09.955 --> 00:03:14.055
And before that, I kind of didn't
have the same need for a hobby.

00:03:14.055 --> 00:03:17.405
I was living with my partner and
children and It was all consuming.

00:03:17.855 --> 00:03:20.175
It was kind of, yeah, I
had a pretty full life.

00:03:20.205 --> 00:03:23.675
If anything, it was like, when do I ever
get some time on my own kind of vibes.

00:03:23.676 --> 00:03:23.695
Yeah.

00:03:24.555 --> 00:03:30.835
And I was drinking, and drinking is a
very time consuming and fully involving

00:03:30.845 --> 00:03:32.095
hobby if you do it every night.

00:03:32.125 --> 00:03:34.397
The time you spend doing it, the
time you spend recovering from it.

00:03:34.397 --> 00:03:37.965
Drink and listen to music, drink and
watch a movie, drink and watch some sport.

00:03:38.015 --> 00:03:42.895
You can sort of just drink and so Sobriety
gives people a lot of their time back.

00:03:42.945 --> 00:03:47.285
Yeah, but I've had it ground into me
and it annoys me every single time a

00:03:47.285 --> 00:03:54.735
friend usually hears my latest dating
fail and then says Bro, you need a hobby.

00:03:55.835 --> 00:03:58.445
And dating, having dating
fails is considered a hobby

00:03:58.445 --> 00:04:00.375
these days, but I don't know.

00:04:00.910 --> 00:04:03.630
even I'm sick of my own
stories from the dating world.

00:04:03.700 --> 00:04:05.190
There's a level of repetition.

00:04:06.300 --> 00:04:08.070
There's a feeling that
things aren't progressing.

00:04:08.490 --> 00:04:09.540
It's just the same.

00:04:09.740 --> 00:04:12.520
I'm sick of going into therapy
and talking about it too.

00:04:12.720 --> 00:04:13.970
So that's a waste of therapy time.

00:04:14.330 --> 00:04:15.450
I've sort of stopped doing that.

00:04:15.450 --> 00:04:15.930
Yeah.

00:04:16.060 --> 00:04:16.560
Probably wise.

00:04:16.935 --> 00:04:20.815
It's like, does my therapist really
need to get to know this person's name?

00:04:20.815 --> 00:04:21.495
Probably not.

00:04:21.505 --> 00:04:23.105
Do you really need to discuss this?

00:04:23.135 --> 00:04:23.805
Is there a therapeutic?

00:04:23.815 --> 00:04:27.235
Yeah, are they going to be, they're being
discussed in three to six months time?

00:04:27.235 --> 00:04:28.025
Probably not.

00:04:28.135 --> 00:04:28.735
Probably not.

00:04:28.845 --> 00:04:31.435
And look, if there's
something like insightful and

00:04:31.435 --> 00:04:32.440
provocative that's going on.

00:04:32.630 --> 00:04:34.320
How does it come to you
that you realize this?

00:04:34.730 --> 00:04:37.250
If I chase this rabbit, I'm going
to find something worthwhile.

00:04:37.250 --> 00:04:38.180
Well, then that's different.

00:04:38.190 --> 00:04:40.010
Then it's not really about the story.

00:04:40.010 --> 00:04:41.550
It's about where it leads.

00:04:42.170 --> 00:04:45.020
Anyway, the last two years
we've had this podcast.

00:04:45.020 --> 00:04:48.323
So, it's, uh, it's been
good to have a hobby, Sam.

00:04:48.893 --> 00:04:52.923
And, and I've had to learn that
part of that is, is, is working

00:04:52.923 --> 00:04:58.573
with you and understanding your
mercurial and unpredictable nature.

00:05:00.093 --> 00:05:00.363
Yeah.

00:05:00.363 --> 00:05:04.393
Well, my unpredictability was all
down to me for a long time, but

00:05:04.403 --> 00:05:08.163
now it's down to the unpredictable
demands of others as well.

00:05:08.433 --> 00:05:10.753
But yeah, there's no point making excuses.

00:05:11.453 --> 00:05:15.403
If I want to do something, that's the
point about the hobby part is it's a

00:05:15.403 --> 00:05:18.763
hobby and you schedule it or it doesn't
happen, but you're getting the other

00:05:18.763 --> 00:05:23.223
stuff, whether it's your work or family
stuff, you're getting that shit done.

00:05:23.293 --> 00:05:23.713
Yes.

00:05:23.876 --> 00:05:24.626
Before you.

00:05:25.186 --> 00:05:26.776
Putting any time into your hobby.

00:05:27.136 --> 00:05:27.426
Correct.

00:05:27.466 --> 00:05:30.336
It just means that sometimes
that means it's quite a while

00:05:30.336 --> 00:05:31.796
between when we see each other.

00:05:32.024 --> 00:05:35.754
an older version of you might have said,
well fuck all of that responsibility,

00:05:35.784 --> 00:05:37.434
I need to do my hobby first.

00:05:37.834 --> 00:05:38.164
Yeah.

00:05:38.164 --> 00:05:39.384
So I respect that it's hard.

00:05:39.424 --> 00:05:41.794
Yeah, I probably would have placed
a much higher priority on things

00:05:41.794 --> 00:05:44.974
like this at another time and then,
you know, forgotten all about a work

00:05:44.974 --> 00:05:46.374
shift or, you know, stuff like that.

00:05:46.384 --> 00:05:48.364
Yeah, that kind of shit, but yeah.

00:05:48.364 --> 00:05:53.489
There's absolutely no Nothing to be gained
from saying, Oh, I'm too busy in life.

00:05:53.544 --> 00:05:56.594
When people say I'm too busy,
what they mean is I'm not placing

00:05:56.594 --> 00:05:57.874
a high enough priority on this.

00:05:57.884 --> 00:06:01.864
So it's just whether there's something
else that can, whether something else can

00:06:01.864 --> 00:06:05.624
be bumped and there's still, I still end
up with I have to accept that you're not

00:06:06.054 --> 00:06:12.114
placing as high a priority on it as I am
without getting resentful towards you.

00:06:12.324 --> 00:06:14.364
Well, and that's kind of what
this poem is about among other

00:06:14.364 --> 00:06:15.394
things, that sort of stuff.

00:06:15.704 --> 00:06:19.314
But so I'll leave it with this,
unless you've got more to say,

00:06:19.314 --> 00:06:22.461
you're most welcome, but Oh, you
know, I'm getting my timetable soon.

00:06:22.531 --> 00:06:26.571
I can look at that and then look
at the lay of the week, you know,

00:06:26.571 --> 00:06:31.341
of the average week and go, well,
this day ought to work, put it in.

00:06:31.421 --> 00:06:36.451
Everybody else can accommodate that
because, you know, I, I moved my things

00:06:36.451 --> 00:06:37.721
around to accommodate other people.

00:06:37.721 --> 00:06:39.941
So hopefully no one has to move anything.

00:06:40.521 --> 00:06:47.001
And it can be a regular thing because
back in October 22, November, December,

00:06:47.361 --> 00:06:49.391
we were doing One Awake and it was just.

00:06:50.006 --> 00:06:52.956
It was just flowing and going
and it was a good feeling.

00:06:52.966 --> 00:06:57.866
I guess to stay sane I'm at the point
where I just have to be grateful if

00:06:57.866 --> 00:07:05.106
I'm here in the chair and then I have
to be accepting that if I'm not and

00:07:05.106 --> 00:07:08.876
without and neither of those things
need to have a time frame on them.

00:07:09.084 --> 00:07:10.764
That just needs to be my settings.

00:07:10.834 --> 00:07:13.844
If I end up here in the chair
with the mic on, that's great.

00:07:13.988 --> 00:07:18.988
If I don't, then I need to let
that go and that's okay too.

00:07:19.408 --> 00:07:24.428
But, but it's been very successful
because it's not like I haven't built

00:07:24.428 --> 00:07:30.978
up some huge resentment against you
for being, in my eyes, unreliable

00:07:30.988 --> 00:07:35.548
or for, in my eyes, not prioritizing
it the way I want to prioritize it.

00:07:36.098 --> 00:07:37.748
I haven't built up that resentment.

00:07:37.748 --> 00:07:41.858
So when I saw you loping down the street
in Rai, I was just happy to see you.

00:07:41.908 --> 00:07:43.048
There was nothing getting in the way.

00:07:43.068 --> 00:07:45.508
And it was actually nice to
do something that wasn't task

00:07:45.518 --> 00:07:46.798
focused, to just hang out.

00:07:46.961 --> 00:07:51.581
And look at the ocean for a couple
of minutes, you know, so anyway,

00:07:51.881 --> 00:07:56.241
they're my little musings before we
get into the poem, but um, this one

00:07:56.251 --> 00:08:01.151
has been floating around addiction
recovery circles for a long, long time.

00:08:01.251 --> 00:08:02.631
And new age circles.

00:08:02.781 --> 00:08:04.221
Yeah, okay.

00:08:04.221 --> 00:08:05.041
The hippie movement embraced it.

00:08:05.041 --> 00:08:09.911
It was on a lot of toilet
doors back in the, in the 70s.

00:08:09.981 --> 00:08:11.731
And those posters were
still there in the 90s.

00:08:11.731 --> 00:08:13.751
I don't want to say
anything more about it.

00:08:14.116 --> 00:08:17.146
it before you read it, but
then we'll spend the episode

00:08:17.146 --> 00:08:18.441
on it once you've read it.

00:08:19.376 --> 00:08:19.926
Amen.

00:08:21.646 --> 00:08:25.996
Go placidly amid the noise and
the haste, and remember what

00:08:25.996 --> 00:08:28.076
peace there may be in silence.

00:08:28.946 --> 00:08:33.946
As far as possible, without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons.

00:08:34.606 --> 00:08:38.416
Speak your truth quietly and
clearly, and listen to others,

00:08:38.766 --> 00:08:40.866
even to the dull and the ignorant.

00:08:41.311 --> 00:08:43.001
They, too, have their story.

00:08:43.704 --> 00:08:45.754
Avoid loud and aggressive persons.

00:08:45.884 --> 00:08:47.874
They are vexatious to the spirit.

00:08:48.644 --> 00:08:52.364
If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain or bitter.

00:08:52.544 --> 00:08:55.924
For always there will be greater
and lesser persons than yourself.

00:08:56.854 --> 00:08:59.414
Enjoy your achievements
as well as your plans.

00:08:59.914 --> 00:09:02.634
Keep interested in your
own career, however humble.

00:09:02.904 --> 00:09:05.654
It is a real possession in
the changing fortunes of time.

00:09:06.814 --> 00:09:10.744
Exercise caution in your business affairs,
for the world is full of trickery.

00:09:11.504 --> 00:09:14.324
But let this not blind you
to what virtue there is.

00:09:14.764 --> 00:09:19.774
Many persons strive for high ideals,
and everywhere life is full of heroism.

00:09:20.389 --> 00:09:21.189
Be yourself.

00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:24.039
Especially do not feign affection.

00:09:24.569 --> 00:09:26.489
Neither be cynical about love.

00:09:27.304 --> 00:09:30.874
For in the face of all aridity
and disenchantment, it is

00:09:30.904 --> 00:09:33.154
as perennial as the grass.

00:09:33.657 --> 00:09:36.927
Take kindly the counsel
of the years, gracefully

00:09:36.927 --> 00:09:38.767
surrendering the things of youth.

00:09:39.350 --> 00:09:44.450
Nurture strength of spirit to shield
you in sudden misfortune, but do not

00:09:44.460 --> 00:09:47.340
distress yourself with dark imaginings.

00:09:48.060 --> 00:09:51.080
Many fears are born of
fatigue and loneliness.

00:09:51.668 --> 00:09:55.218
Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.

00:09:56.348 --> 00:09:59.928
You are a child of the universe, no
less than the trees and the stars.

00:09:59.958 --> 00:10:01.308
You have a right to be here.

00:10:02.328 --> 00:10:05.648
And whether or not it is clear
to you, no doubt the universe

00:10:05.678 --> 00:10:07.298
is unfolding as it should.

00:10:07.871 --> 00:10:13.291
Therefore, be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be, and

00:10:13.291 --> 00:10:18.051
whatever your labours and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life.

00:10:18.746 --> 00:10:20.266
Keep peace in your soul.

00:10:21.056 --> 00:10:26.256
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken
dreams, it is still a beautiful world.

00:10:26.926 --> 00:10:27.826
Be cheerful.

00:10:28.066 --> 00:10:29.456
Strive to be happy.

00:10:30.118 --> 00:10:31.758
Mmm.

00:10:32.869 --> 00:10:33.959
Strive to be happy.

00:10:34.479 --> 00:10:36.759
Yeah, oh, if you don't strive, you won't.

00:10:37.069 --> 00:10:40.269
Or is striving the problem,
would Buddhists say?

00:10:40.747 --> 00:10:42.887
There's a lot in there, obviously.

00:10:43.030 --> 00:10:44.680
I mean, we could line by line this thing.

00:10:44.760 --> 00:10:46.200
I've got thoughts about every last one.

00:10:46.210 --> 00:10:47.870
Yeah, we might have to a little bit.

00:10:47.976 --> 00:10:52.326
The stuff about the career, when I first
read it, really hit me because I was

00:10:52.326 --> 00:10:56.406
like, fuck, I haven't done this properly.

00:10:57.036 --> 00:10:57.646
Okay, hang on.

00:10:58.086 --> 00:10:58.946
Hit you when?

00:10:58.966 --> 00:10:59.806
When you read it when?

00:10:59.816 --> 00:11:04.016
Oh, all of it hits me in different ways.

00:11:04.126 --> 00:11:06.636
I mean, but You came across this
years and years ago, so different

00:11:06.636 --> 00:11:07.386
things would have struck you.

00:11:07.396 --> 00:11:08.796
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:11:09.371 --> 00:11:13.051
Keep interested in your career,
it's a real possession in the

00:11:13.051 --> 00:11:14.431
changing fortunes of time.

00:11:15.501 --> 00:11:19.901
Because, and it talks about dark
imaginings too, because I had all the

00:11:19.911 --> 00:11:25.011
dark imaginings, I imagined no future
for myself or humanity or whatever.

00:11:25.796 --> 00:11:30.796
So I haven't paid enough attention
to my own little life, and

00:11:30.796 --> 00:11:33.716
now I'm suffering from that.

00:11:33.900 --> 00:11:36.710
You were full of big dreams and
big nightmares for a long time.

00:11:36.730 --> 00:11:37.680
Yeah, that's right.

00:11:37.930 --> 00:11:42.910
I thought I was a doomed Doomed
alcoholic, like my father.

00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:46.520
Or potentially a revolutionary
genius, you know, sort of like

00:11:46.530 --> 00:11:47.340
all sorts of possibilities.

00:11:47.350 --> 00:11:48.000
Whatever.

00:11:48.670 --> 00:11:52.050
Like, yeah, it might have
depended what substance I was

00:11:52.130 --> 00:11:53.720
taking or whatever, but Yeah.

00:11:54.510 --> 00:11:58.150
I just didn't, there's a,
there's a real humility.

00:11:58.510 --> 00:12:04.990
And a paying attention to your own little
life in this poem while acknowledging

00:12:05.250 --> 00:12:07.460
that the world's kind of a hard place.

00:12:08.230 --> 00:12:14.100
That is a, has got some fundamental
wisdom that not only I, but I think

00:12:14.100 --> 00:12:18.297
a lot of people who ended up In their
life with an addiction problem, stumble

00:12:18.297 --> 00:12:21.307
across this poem and kind of go, oh.

00:12:21.387 --> 00:12:22.157
That's something.

00:12:22.207 --> 00:12:23.317
Yeah, that's something.

00:12:23.327 --> 00:12:24.927
Now, is it a bit cheesy?

00:12:24.927 --> 00:12:25.817
It's a bit cheesy.

00:12:25.827 --> 00:12:26.477
Yeah, sure.

00:12:26.644 --> 00:12:28.634
I think it's very of our
times, if you want my opinion.

00:12:28.644 --> 00:12:29.454
Yeah.

00:12:29.454 --> 00:12:31.614
This is in fashion right
now, it feels to me.

00:12:31.624 --> 00:12:32.454
It's written in 1927.

00:12:33.844 --> 00:12:34.084
Yeah.

00:12:34.544 --> 00:12:35.864
American poet, I believe.

00:12:35.864 --> 00:12:38.114
I think he might have written
it to his young daughter.

00:12:38.154 --> 00:12:39.174
Max Ehrman.

00:12:39.224 --> 00:12:39.894
Yeah.

00:12:39.989 --> 00:12:43.429
but I posted it years ago when
I still had a Facebook account.

00:12:43.429 --> 00:12:48.149
I posted it on Facebook and got
mostly favorable, favorable reviews.

00:12:48.149 --> 00:12:51.589
But one person whose opinion I
did hold highly said, you know,

00:12:51.589 --> 00:12:54.529
she hates these kinds of lists of
things you shouldn't, shouldn't do.

00:12:55.229 --> 00:12:56.169
Yeah, I can see that.

00:12:56.169 --> 00:12:56.699
Fair enough.

00:12:56.699 --> 00:12:56.939
Yeah.

00:12:56.989 --> 00:13:00.809
But like, it's hard to argue
with any of these though.

00:13:00.929 --> 00:13:04.743
Yeah, for me, it's like , like it
actually comes through back to the

00:13:04.743 --> 00:13:07.323
death of my father because I was 23.

00:13:07.803 --> 00:13:10.053
He dies at 50 from alcoholism.

00:13:10.203 --> 00:13:10.953
Alcoholism.

00:13:11.013 --> 00:13:16.023
Mm-hmm . And I kind of
lost my source of wisdom.

00:13:16.293 --> 00:13:17.673
One of the main ones.

00:13:17.793 --> 00:13:17.973
Yeah.

00:13:18.483 --> 00:13:19.353
From then on.

00:13:19.743 --> 00:13:20.073
Yeah.

00:13:20.313 --> 00:13:24.423
And I felt like I was probably
doomed to not live a very long life.

00:13:24.453 --> 00:13:24.513
Yeah.

00:13:25.538 --> 00:13:30.468
And, so those dark imaginings, and
I've had to sort of, in the last few

00:13:30.468 --> 00:13:35.208
years, particularly come out of that
and be like, well, hang on, like, I need

00:13:35.428 --> 00:13:39.218
You're way less of a catastrophist, like
whether it's the world or, you know,

00:13:39.238 --> 00:13:41.368
this country or your own life, yeah.

00:13:41.558 --> 00:13:45.761
Yeah, well, I've found other
sources of wisdom in addiction

00:13:45.761 --> 00:13:50.251
recovery circles, and some of them
being older men, I'll be honest.

00:13:50.271 --> 00:13:50.541
Sure.

00:13:51.331 --> 00:13:54.481
who around the age my dad would
have been if he had a lived.

00:13:54.771 --> 00:14:00.571
You know, I'm talking about men in their
70s, 60s and 70s, and they point me

00:14:00.571 --> 00:14:02.341
in the direction of a poem like this.

00:14:02.841 --> 00:14:07.561
And they say, this is, I think one
of them calls it his mental anchors.

00:14:08.071 --> 00:14:12.486
A lot of my mental and emotional
anchors are in this Poem.

00:14:12.586 --> 00:14:16.486
I, I think that this is the, mental
and emotional anchors is very striking.

00:14:17.556 --> 00:14:21.536
You could say it's a touchstone,
you could say it's a prayer, you

00:14:21.536 --> 00:14:25.046
could say it's a liturgy of sorts.

00:14:25.586 --> 00:14:28.436
You know, I think it's taken on that,
I mean it's nearly a hundred years old.

00:14:28.436 --> 00:14:29.666
What's, hang on, what's a liturgy?

00:14:30.096 --> 00:14:33.276
Uh, literally sort of means
the words of the ritual.

00:14:33.841 --> 00:14:34.211
Right.

00:14:34.271 --> 00:14:39.651
You know, so liturgical, uh, you know, so
the things that are said that, you know,

00:14:39.651 --> 00:14:41.246
at the Easter Mass or the, this or that.

00:14:41.246 --> 00:14:44.201
Well it is like that because it
gets printed out with flowery

00:14:44.241 --> 00:14:46.481
calligraphy and put on toilet walls.

00:14:46.481 --> 00:14:47.711
It's presented as scripture.

00:14:47.771 --> 00:14:51.431
Yeah, to be read and re
read and Meditated on.

00:14:51.721 --> 00:14:52.611
Meditated on.

00:14:52.671 --> 00:14:54.891
And recited and celebrated.

00:14:54.941 --> 00:14:58.035
And then at the end of course
it says no doubt the universe

00:14:58.055 --> 00:14:59.475
is unfolding as it should.

00:15:00.685 --> 00:15:04.355
Which is, it's the closest, I
think that's probably the most

00:15:04.355 --> 00:15:05.675
controversial statement in there.

00:15:05.735 --> 00:15:06.235
That's right.

00:15:06.345 --> 00:15:10.205
Like, from an objective point of view,
but yeah, it's interesting, but like,

00:15:10.215 --> 00:15:11.715
and it is a metaphysical statement.

00:15:11.895 --> 00:15:12.885
So it is, that's.

00:15:12.886 --> 00:15:13.305
That's right.

00:15:13.315 --> 00:15:15.005
You can't be an atheist.

00:15:15.105 --> 00:15:16.765
Well, there's a question for you.

00:15:16.765 --> 00:15:19.998
Can you be an atheist, which
I was until nine years ago.

00:15:20.588 --> 00:15:25.278
Can you be an atheist and believe the
universe is unfolding as it should?

00:15:26.208 --> 00:15:29.418
Or do you just say, no, no,
it's just unfolding randomly and

00:15:29.418 --> 00:15:32.148
chaotically and there is no should.

00:15:32.228 --> 00:15:32.968
That's right, isn't it?

00:15:32.998 --> 00:15:34.148
That's what atheist says.

00:15:34.168 --> 00:15:36.368
Well, it depends on the flavor of atheist.

00:15:36.368 --> 00:15:40.300
And so, I mean, if you've got one of
your sort of, everything is predetermined

00:15:40.830 --> 00:15:44.160
because of the nature of science and,
you know, everything from biochemistry

00:15:44.160 --> 00:15:47.590
to the laws of matter and the properties
of nature and blah, blah, blah, blah,

00:15:47.740 --> 00:15:51.430
properties of matter and the laws of
nature that be owing to all of that

00:15:51.430 --> 00:15:55.355
and the way brains work, that we all
have this, you illusion of free will

00:15:55.355 --> 00:15:59.250
and consciousness, which is Maybe the
consciousness part is not an illusion,

00:15:59.250 --> 00:16:03.610
but the free will is, and that no matter
what you do or think you are doing, and

00:16:03.610 --> 00:16:06.540
no matter how much you think you might
be in charge, you're absolutely not.

00:16:06.700 --> 00:16:09.150
And it's, it's all just unfolding.

00:16:09.520 --> 00:16:10.440
It's on rails.

00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:11.340
There's nothing you can do.

00:16:11.630 --> 00:16:14.220
So there's like a hardcore version
of the, there's no free will.

00:16:14.700 --> 00:16:18.700
And then that person would actually
probably to a degree agree with the

00:16:18.700 --> 00:16:23.650
statement, but they might say the
universe is unfolding as it must.

00:16:24.430 --> 00:16:25.450
As it must.

00:16:25.490 --> 00:16:26.110
Hmm.

00:16:26.140 --> 00:16:27.770
Say should and must is a different.

00:16:28.415 --> 00:16:29.305
They're different things.

00:16:29.855 --> 00:16:34.995
So should is a I would argue so should
is a normative statement and Must would

00:16:34.995 --> 00:16:38.607
also be a normative statement and then
there's another kind of atheist who says,

00:16:38.607 --> 00:16:40.097
you know Well, there's no God in charge.

00:16:40.097 --> 00:16:43.947
There's no greater plan and that
there's a level of Chance in

00:16:43.947 --> 00:16:47.977
all circumstances, you know, uh,
contingency is powerful in history.

00:16:47.977 --> 00:16:51.467
I guess that's what I believed before
I came into addiction recovery.

00:16:51.477 --> 00:16:51.967
Yeah.

00:16:52.287 --> 00:16:55.267
And, but then it says,
therefore be at peace with God,

00:16:55.267 --> 00:16:56.947
whatever you concede him to be.

00:16:57.197 --> 00:16:58.377
Conceive him to be.

00:16:58.377 --> 00:17:01.467
Yeah, don't be mad at
the creator or the, yeah.

00:17:01.877 --> 00:17:02.327
Yeah.

00:17:02.587 --> 00:17:07.167
And a God of my own understanding
is the God that I was, uh,

00:17:07.187 --> 00:17:09.757
introduced to, to get sober.

00:17:09.847 --> 00:17:10.417
Yes.

00:17:10.622 --> 00:17:15.222
Not really the Bible God, a little
different, uh Well, kind of explicitly

00:17:15.222 --> 00:17:20.172
not the Bible God, but also, if
that's what you want, that's okay too.

00:17:20.922 --> 00:17:24.042
Yeah, they're not banning you from
having a personal conception, in fact,

00:17:24.042 --> 00:17:27.092
you kind of have to work out your own
conception is sort of the point, right?

00:17:27.092 --> 00:17:32.352
Yeah, but those two sentences, if I can
believe that the universe is unfolding

00:17:32.402 --> 00:17:39.652
as it should, that means I have to
accept Untold amount of tragedies.

00:17:39.922 --> 00:17:41.172
It does mean that, I guess.

00:17:41.182 --> 00:17:43.612
As having some kind of meaning, right?

00:17:43.849 --> 00:17:45.769
Ah, do you have to accept there's meaning?

00:17:45.980 --> 00:17:47.500
To be unfolding as it should?

00:17:47.689 --> 00:17:51.459
Yeah, I mean it's, that's, that's
the part of the poem where I kind of

00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:54.369
go, No, I can't, I'm not quite ready.

00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:55.499
Well, I think they, you know.

00:17:55.659 --> 00:17:57.879
I'm not quite ready to accept that, like.

00:17:57.889 --> 00:17:57.909
Yeah.

00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:00.670
I think the things we're stuck
on in this are probably just as

00:18:00.670 --> 00:18:02.290
important as the things we agree with.

00:18:02.290 --> 00:18:02.490
Yeah.

00:18:02.520 --> 00:18:03.160
Yeah.

00:18:03.190 --> 00:18:03.500
Yeah.

00:18:03.650 --> 00:18:07.720
So you're not quite willing
to accept that tragedy has

00:18:07.730 --> 00:18:11.280
meaning and you know, it's okay.

00:18:11.810 --> 00:18:13.330
And I don't think I am
either, to be honest.

00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:14.070
Yeah.

00:18:15.540 --> 00:18:17.490
But I think that if I could.

00:18:18.600 --> 00:18:20.100
There would be a lot of wisdom in that.

00:18:20.630 --> 00:18:25.400
I think there, I think there is, I think
there's more wisdom in this poem than

00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:28.520
there is in my, uh, view of the world.

00:18:28.560 --> 00:18:37.002
Your earlier kind of nihilistic view or
your I'm heading towards believing that

00:18:37.112 --> 00:18:41.752
the universe is unfolding as it should
and making my own peace with my own higher

00:18:41.752 --> 00:18:45.082
power as I conceive him, her, it to be.

00:18:45.927 --> 00:18:47.247
That's kind of where I'm at.

00:18:47.277 --> 00:18:53.547
That's kind of where I'm at, you know,
and, uh, it really does help me not be

00:18:53.557 --> 00:18:57.587
self destructive and pick up a drink
and start destroying myself again.

00:18:57.657 --> 00:19:01.755
Well, then it's a useful
belief or a useful, sort of

00:19:01.755 --> 00:19:03.575
normative assumption, an axiom.

00:19:03.585 --> 00:19:04.185
There you go.

00:19:04.425 --> 00:19:04.825
Yeah.

00:19:04.825 --> 00:19:06.165
We assume this to be true.

00:19:06.905 --> 00:19:07.335
Yeah.

00:19:07.335 --> 00:19:12.835
And then you just practice, you practice
your life as if there's a higher power.

00:19:13.785 --> 00:19:16.025
In my case, a loving higher power.

00:19:16.595 --> 00:19:16.885
Yeah.

00:19:17.555 --> 00:19:22.995
I think there's ample evidence that
people have changed their lives and,

00:19:23.245 --> 00:19:27.195
or done better things than they thought
they could by starting with that idea.

00:19:27.585 --> 00:19:28.955
I think there's plenty
of evidence for that.

00:19:28.955 --> 00:19:31.825
I have had strong experiences.

00:19:32.060 --> 00:19:38.421
of experiencing this kind of support
that I can't quite describe or understand

00:19:38.421 --> 00:19:41.881
in any other way than I'm having a
relationship with a higher power.

00:19:42.571 --> 00:19:46.641
There is a support there for me and
there has been ever since I've been

00:19:46.641 --> 00:19:49.271
willing to ask a higher power for help.

00:19:49.881 --> 00:19:54.521
Well, then it's entirely compatible
with your experience of life and you

00:19:54.521 --> 00:19:56.321
don't have any sort of strong evidence.

00:19:57.011 --> 00:20:00.481
To take on a contrary belief and
you know, what are you going to do?

00:20:00.561 --> 00:20:04.481
In any case, you know, decide that it's,
you know, not okay to think that way

00:20:04.481 --> 00:20:05.981
and then make some effort to change it.

00:20:06.001 --> 00:20:08.181
I mean, I don't think
there's any purpose in that.

00:20:08.771 --> 00:20:12.111
You know, it reminds me of a
conversation I had years ago with my

00:20:12.331 --> 00:20:16.126
beloved friend Pushka, a very wise
and gentle, spiritual sort of person.

00:20:16.426 --> 00:20:20.176
Person in his own way as well
as, you know, he's hilarious.

00:20:20.176 --> 00:20:23.146
He's a, he's a nerd and a, you
know, a compulsive hobbyist.

00:20:23.146 --> 00:20:27.126
And, you know, he's a cool guy and he's
had big struggles over the years, but

00:20:27.126 --> 00:20:30.416
he's also shown a lot of compassion
to a lot of people in his life.

00:20:30.573 --> 00:20:33.873
And one day we were talking about
atheism and, uh, you know, the,

00:20:33.993 --> 00:20:35.313
the, the horrors of religion.

00:20:36.063 --> 00:20:40.353
And I just hit a point where I was
starting to get a bit annoyed with the new

00:20:40.353 --> 00:20:42.933
atheism, you know, capital N, capital a.

00:20:43.713 --> 00:20:48.563
of the early 2000s and I think I'd sort
of come out the other side of it and

00:20:48.721 --> 00:20:54.311
I had no patience for the sort of smug
Ricky Gervais types who would say say

00:20:54.341 --> 00:20:57.977
things like there was this one tweet
which crystallized the whole thing for me

00:20:57.977 --> 00:21:03.037
right so he said and I was those cards on
the table agnostic I don't know whether

00:21:03.037 --> 00:21:07.447
there's a god or not I can't feel it one
statement or the other to be true so it's

00:21:07.447 --> 00:21:11.565
kind of it's just based on a feeling more
than anything else right and So Pushka

00:21:11.565 --> 00:21:15.375
was praising Catherine Devaney, who, you
know, had been courageous and taken on the

00:21:15.375 --> 00:21:18.570
Catholic Church and, you know, speaking
truth to power and all of that, but I

00:21:18.570 --> 00:21:20.910
was maybe being, I was a bit pissed and
being a bit of a smartass and I said,

00:21:20.910 --> 00:21:24.435
yeah, but Catherine Devaney, I mean,
kind of, I feel like her shtick is, I'm

00:21:24.435 --> 00:21:28.565
atheist, therefore I'm dreadfully smart,
and I've seen through the illusions that,

00:21:28.575 --> 00:21:32.255
you know, lesser mortals are burdened
with, and I'm a higher being because

00:21:32.255 --> 00:21:37.305
I've seen through this, you know, it's
the smug red pilled vibe, right, which

00:21:37.305 --> 00:21:40.815
we can see on all sides of politics and
culture, it's not exclusive to any one

00:21:40.815 --> 00:21:44.845
belief, and we get smug God believers
also, right, who think they've got the

00:21:44.845 --> 00:21:46.735
secret sauce and other people are shit.

00:21:47.265 --> 00:21:49.885
So I don't think there's any room
for this attitude of others are shit.

00:21:50.029 --> 00:21:52.519
but he wasn't like that, but
he was just kind of just liked

00:21:52.549 --> 00:21:53.559
Catherine Devaney's vibe.

00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:54.369
And I do too.

00:21:55.609 --> 00:21:56.429
I made this point.

00:21:56.439 --> 00:21:59.779
I was like, look, I don't think there's
any point being self congratulatory.

00:22:00.239 --> 00:22:02.409
about being atheist or not.

00:22:03.194 --> 00:22:07.389
I don't, I don't think we can really take
any pride in that one way or the other.

00:22:07.399 --> 00:22:08.509
It just is what it is.

00:22:08.739 --> 00:22:09.549
It's like being gay.

00:22:09.549 --> 00:22:13.349
It's like you are or you aren't, you know,
you've got these attractions or you don't.

00:22:13.729 --> 00:22:18.739
Uh, maybe they change over time,
but it's kind of like, Hey everyone,

00:22:18.749 --> 00:22:20.309
give me a high five because I'm this.

00:22:20.729 --> 00:22:23.619
It's like, no, no, no, I'll high
five you if you do something cool,

00:22:23.969 --> 00:22:27.359
do something good, which she and
Catherine Devaney has done for sure.

00:22:27.589 --> 00:22:31.349
When I look at a guy like Ricky Gervais,
he's done some tremendous work and is

00:22:31.349 --> 00:22:36.469
also just an insufferable person in
my opinion, as you know, and he posted

00:22:36.469 --> 00:22:41.629
when Max Baumgartner jumped from space
with a parachute, you remember, right?

00:22:42.329 --> 00:22:48.354
And he said, dear religion, today
I safely dropped a man from space

00:22:48.354 --> 00:22:51.714
and you shot a little girl in the
head for wanting to go to school.

00:22:51.894 --> 00:22:53.374
Yours, Science.

00:22:54.754 --> 00:22:58.094
I'm like, come on dude, this
is, this is the nothing burger.

00:22:58.484 --> 00:23:01.284
Like, you could just rewrite
it like this, which I did.

00:23:01.375 --> 00:23:09.234
dear science, today I gave hope and
comfort to millions of believers and you

00:23:09.244 --> 00:23:11.524
designed an atom bomb or this or that.

00:23:11.894 --> 00:23:15.104
So we can just invert the statement and
you see, I don't think there's any point.

00:23:15.184 --> 00:23:21.158
I mean it talks about aridity in the
poem in terms of love, but there's such

00:23:21.158 --> 00:23:23.088
an aridity to the whole atheist thing.

00:23:23.138 --> 00:23:23.978
Oh yeah, I think it can be.

00:23:23.978 --> 00:23:25.008
It was put to me.

00:23:25.370 --> 00:23:26.900
When I need to get sober.

00:23:27.060 --> 00:23:29.200
So let's just stop and explain
that term for a second.

00:23:29.260 --> 00:23:31.720
Aridity, like arid as in dry.

00:23:32.570 --> 00:23:33.630
Lifeless.

00:23:34.660 --> 00:23:35.370
Barren.

00:23:35.550 --> 00:23:36.090
Yeah.

00:23:36.260 --> 00:23:36.990
Unfruitful.

00:23:37.430 --> 00:23:37.770
Hmm.

00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:41.190
And that belief sort of has this
more juiciness to it, I think.

00:23:41.250 --> 00:23:43.450
And that atheism can feel a little dry.

00:23:43.980 --> 00:23:45.020
I was an atheist.

00:23:45.020 --> 00:23:45.280
Yeah.

00:23:45.310 --> 00:23:46.400
I needed to get sober.

00:23:46.430 --> 00:23:47.220
I needed help.

00:23:47.630 --> 00:23:52.229
It was put to me to ask the question,
Who am I to say there is no God?

00:23:52.557 --> 00:23:52.917
Sure.

00:23:53.107 --> 00:23:54.197
So, Ricky Gervais.

00:23:54.287 --> 00:23:55.377
Who am I to say there is?

00:23:56.047 --> 00:23:56.467
Yeah.

00:23:56.537 --> 00:23:56.747
Yeah.

00:23:57.177 --> 00:24:00.147
So, Ricky Gervais or Catherine
Devaney, God, I haven't heard

00:24:00.147 --> 00:24:01.087
that name in a long time.

00:24:01.127 --> 00:24:01.647
Yeah.

00:24:01.785 --> 00:24:04.755
would say, well, I am very clever.

00:24:05.415 --> 00:24:07.755
That's who I am to say there is no God.

00:24:07.915 --> 00:24:08.145
Yeah.

00:24:08.795 --> 00:24:14.085
But maybe they were never where I
was, have been of destroying myself

00:24:14.395 --> 00:24:20.135
with a substance and asking someone
for help and being told, Hey, man.

00:24:20.420 --> 00:24:23.240
You can't really do
this and be an atheist.

00:24:23.860 --> 00:24:27.670
So are you willing to be
a little bit open minded?

00:24:28.190 --> 00:24:29.860
Just a little bit open minded.

00:24:30.360 --> 00:24:34.980
Just crack the door ajar
of open mindedness towards

00:24:35.120 --> 00:24:37.050
some kind of spirituality.

00:24:38.485 --> 00:24:41.035
If you can do that, you'll be sweet.

00:24:41.445 --> 00:24:45.375
And I, I mean, I've just gone past nine
years without having a drop of alcohol.

00:24:45.615 --> 00:24:46.355
It's an achievement.

00:24:46.395 --> 00:24:49.225
And I've been on a spiritual journey.

00:24:49.825 --> 00:24:56.275
That whole time, but still I'm not willing
to let go fully to the Desiderata of

00:24:56.325 --> 00:25:02.345
saying the universe is unfolding as it
should because there are, of course,

00:25:02.355 --> 00:25:06.965
there's so many horrors in the world and
And all of that, you know, it remains

00:25:06.975 --> 00:25:12.215
true and and it's so hard to Um, and
that's where, and that's what, uh, Ricky

00:25:12.215 --> 00:25:17.185
Gervais would point to just the horrors
and say, well, God's responsible for this.

00:25:17.195 --> 00:25:18.185
What kind of God is this?

00:25:18.185 --> 00:25:18.825
Blah, blah, blah.

00:25:18.825 --> 00:25:19.105
Yeah.

00:25:19.105 --> 00:25:19.805
He would.

00:25:19.805 --> 00:25:20.085
Yeah.

00:25:20.175 --> 00:25:24.202
But I've, been on a strong, or he
would say God is responsible for the

00:25:24.202 --> 00:25:26.022
abuse in the institutional churches.

00:25:26.562 --> 00:25:28.616
And I just, I think it's
a pointless statement.

00:25:28.616 --> 00:25:28.872
Yeah.

00:25:29.342 --> 00:25:33.812
In my nine years on a spiritual journey
from atheism to spirituality, I've

00:25:33.812 --> 00:25:35.862
never once veered towards a church.

00:25:36.622 --> 00:25:40.612
Well, and you know, well, Hugh
has requested we renew the topic

00:25:40.612 --> 00:25:42.072
of spirituality versus religion.

00:25:42.072 --> 00:25:43.942
So yeah, we'll do, we'll
have to do that one.

00:25:43.942 --> 00:25:44.132
Yeah.

00:25:44.152 --> 00:25:48.092
I just think whatever you needed
in the middle ages to have

00:25:48.637 --> 00:25:50.247
Relationship with a higher power.

00:25:51.337 --> 00:25:56.527
In the modern era, you can, you know,
mine's been fairly eastern flavoured,

00:25:56.567 --> 00:26:01.577
although Buddhism doesn't really have a
higher power, I have strong experiences

00:26:01.577 --> 00:26:05.987
with Buddhist style meditations, but
I have a strong experience with a

00:26:05.987 --> 00:26:12.398
higher power in addiction recovery,
and I'm no longer an atheist, and I'm

00:26:12.398 --> 00:26:15.868
not even an agnostic, I believe, I
personally believe in a higher power.

00:26:16.358 --> 00:26:20.598
It's just that all the wisdom in this
poem takes me to this one point, and I'm

00:26:20.598 --> 00:26:24.398
like, yes, yes, yes, yes, a little bit
cheesy, but I really agree with this,

00:26:24.428 --> 00:26:28.553
yes, yeah, and then, ah, the universe
is unfolding as it's just, Because the

00:26:28.553 --> 00:26:32.373
real answer, of course, at that point,
the real answer is, I don't know.

00:26:32.633 --> 00:26:33.103
Of course.

00:26:33.253 --> 00:26:36.633
And that, the most spiritual statement
you can ever make is, I don't know.

00:26:36.693 --> 00:26:37.353
It's a mystery.

00:26:37.363 --> 00:26:37.673
Yeah.

00:26:37.953 --> 00:26:39.243
Yeah, that's right, that's true.

00:26:39.403 --> 00:26:42.163
I do wonder what Yuval Noah
Harari would make of it, and

00:26:42.163 --> 00:26:43.473
he might agree to an extent.

00:26:43.593 --> 00:26:47.373
Uh, and, you know, I think anyone
who's studied history with any level

00:26:47.373 --> 00:26:51.301
of seriousness, You know, once you get
past the big man idea that, you know,

00:26:51.351 --> 00:26:55.091
a big powerful person came along and
changed things and you plug into the

00:26:55.091 --> 00:27:00.051
idea of kind of larger trends and forces
and, you know, and also random events,

00:27:00.051 --> 00:27:04.451
but also people getting together and
deliberately trying to do something good

00:27:04.451 --> 00:27:06.971
or bad, you plug all that into the model.

00:27:07.381 --> 00:27:11.866
And I think what you do arrive at is
you can arrive at an idea that, you

00:27:11.866 --> 00:27:16.001
know, So, while it appears random, that
there is a bit of an order to things,

00:27:16.141 --> 00:27:20.321
and whether that order is created by
humans and nature working together, well

00:27:20.321 --> 00:27:21.891
then some would say that's God then.

00:27:22.251 --> 00:27:27.661
Uh, and, you know, also, think about
all those people that went to Catholic

00:27:27.661 --> 00:27:31.859
schools, sort of the boomer generation
of Australian social justice people,

00:27:31.869 --> 00:27:36.100
so many of them went to Catholic
schools, and had very, very, they

00:27:36.100 --> 00:27:40.310
were Very strongly indoctrinated
into the social teachings, right?

00:27:40.370 --> 00:27:43.170
Justice and charity and,
uh, stuff like that, right?

00:27:43.530 --> 00:27:45.330
Caritas and, uh, the other one.

00:27:45.670 --> 00:27:52.350
And many of them Left the faith and left
the church, you know, and didn't, weren't,

00:27:52.360 --> 00:27:57.270
you know, even attending even a little
bit and were publicly not Christian, but

00:27:57.270 --> 00:27:59.170
they carried those principles forward.

00:27:59.210 --> 00:28:03.120
And I would argue that they had probably
found a higher power in many cases, which

00:28:03.120 --> 00:28:08.940
was, you know, the environment movement
or socialism or something else, the Labour

00:28:08.940 --> 00:28:10.720
Party, you know, whatever it might be.

00:28:11.425 --> 00:28:14.985
And, and I think that the higher
power can be a variety of things, and

00:28:15.075 --> 00:28:17.745
I would argue it's probably anything
you're willing to surrender to.

00:28:17.955 --> 00:28:21.545
Yeah, and for a lot of people who
make a start in addiction recovery,

00:28:21.555 --> 00:28:23.045
it's, they surrender to the group.

00:28:23.775 --> 00:28:27.225
I think that the The, as in the
group of people in the, in the room.

00:28:27.315 --> 00:28:29.095
I, and I think that's
a very powerful idea.

00:28:29.145 --> 00:28:29.525
Yeah.

00:28:29.525 --> 00:28:32.215
And I think that that is
enough surrender, honestly.

00:28:32.265 --> 00:28:34.115
I, I don't know if it needs to, yeah.

00:28:34.115 --> 00:28:37.755
I've wanted to go further, and I've, I
didn't have to go on a spiritual journey.

00:28:38.005 --> 00:28:40.705
I could have just surrendered the bare
minimum, but it was calling to you.

00:28:40.775 --> 00:28:42.575
Well, I got curious once I started.

00:28:42.615 --> 00:28:43.015
Yeah.

00:28:43.675 --> 00:28:46.955
If I'm going to pray, well, I'm going
to pray to something and then I want

00:28:46.955 --> 00:28:48.825
to have a relationship with that.

00:28:48.855 --> 00:28:51.055
But I don't think it was even
as intellectual as all that.

00:28:51.095 --> 00:28:54.335
I think you just started pulling on
the thread and it just went somewhere.

00:28:54.375 --> 00:28:55.785
I'm a lot happier for it, man.

00:28:56.155 --> 00:29:00.505
You know, I might just throw some
little lines at you, just do 30

00:29:00.515 --> 00:29:01.855
seconds on a few different chunks.

00:29:02.395 --> 00:29:02.715
Okay.

00:29:02.864 --> 00:29:06.024
Go placidly amid the noise and
the haste, and remember what

00:29:06.024 --> 00:29:08.764
peace there may be in silence.

00:29:08.964 --> 00:29:10.194
Oh, and you can't deny this one.

00:29:11.074 --> 00:29:12.764
I don't think there's
anything controversial here.

00:29:13.614 --> 00:29:16.384
I mean, some would say maybe
don't go placidly, you know, into

00:29:16.384 --> 00:29:17.824
that good night, but, you know.

00:29:17.994 --> 00:29:22.584
But you can go placidly, it just, that,
to me that just says stop being a cunt.

00:29:23.284 --> 00:29:27.194
Yeah, or don't be, you know,
yes, like rude and aggressive.

00:29:27.204 --> 00:29:27.474
Yes.

00:29:27.494 --> 00:29:30.734
And stop getting yourself worked
up over things, you know, like

00:29:30.964 --> 00:29:33.644
if it's not going to lead to
something, then quit doing that.

00:29:33.734 --> 00:29:35.774
And the piece there
may be in silence, man.

00:29:35.774 --> 00:29:39.264
I've, I've, I've avoided
silence most of my life.

00:29:39.674 --> 00:29:40.684
Till the last couple of years.

00:29:41.504 --> 00:29:42.194
It's not a comfortable thing.

00:29:42.314 --> 00:29:44.604
I mean, whoever's listening to
this, you're avoiding silence.

00:29:44.614 --> 00:29:45.484
Switch it off.

00:29:45.884 --> 00:29:46.894
Have some silence.

00:29:46.984 --> 00:29:47.474
Yes.

00:29:47.864 --> 00:29:51.224
You know, and I, I, there is a trick
that you're a hundred percent right, Joe.

00:29:51.404 --> 00:29:52.514
And you know what?

00:29:53.394 --> 00:29:57.604
If you're leaning on pods for mental
health, nothing wrong with that, I do

00:29:57.604 --> 00:29:59.294
it and have done it for a long time.

00:29:59.634 --> 00:30:03.424
But I did, did I, I don't know if I told
you this story, that I was walking to

00:30:03.424 --> 00:30:07.564
the supermarket, so I told this story in
therapy, and You know, my therapist was

00:30:07.564 --> 00:30:11.804
very, I think he was very pleased with
this, um, because I was pleased with it.

00:30:11.914 --> 00:30:13.214
It was a genuine breakthrough.

00:30:14.144 --> 00:30:17.844
So I'm walking to the supermarket,
not far, and it's kind of a

00:30:17.844 --> 00:30:20.584
cool, nice evening, and like,
but I'm listening to something.

00:30:21.234 --> 00:30:24.954
And then I kept rewinding it, because
I kept missing stuff, and I just

00:30:24.954 --> 00:30:27.844
had this sudden realisation like,
I actually don't want to listen

00:30:27.844 --> 00:30:31.544
to anything, there's nothing wrong
with this show, I just actually

00:30:31.544 --> 00:30:32.934
just want to hear my own thoughts.

00:30:33.634 --> 00:30:34.944
And that was a shock.

00:30:35.819 --> 00:30:38.619
It wasn't like, Oh, I want to tune into
the sound of the breeze and the trees.

00:30:38.629 --> 00:30:39.039
No, no, no.

00:30:39.379 --> 00:30:46.029
I want to hear my own thoughts because God
knows I've spent a lot of my life running

00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:51.809
from my own thoughts, trying to block them
out and trying to get some silence in my

00:30:51.809 --> 00:30:54.209
head unsuccessfully for the most part.

00:30:54.969 --> 00:31:00.624
And, before I, maybe before you can
get to the silence inside, I think.

00:31:01.439 --> 00:31:05.049
It might help to have some comfort
and less fear with your own thoughts,

00:31:05.049 --> 00:31:08.709
and just to recognize that they
arise and go away, and they may

00:31:08.709 --> 00:31:12.524
not Oh, they arise and go away!

00:31:13.004 --> 00:31:16.284
Like that's, that's the number one
thing I've learned in meditation.

00:31:17.234 --> 00:31:22.014
You could do, you know, meditation could
be simply, good meditation could be

00:31:22.034 --> 00:31:28.554
simply summed up as, if I look out this
shed door, it's like, my mind is the

00:31:28.554 --> 00:31:35.104
vast blue sky, consciousness, awareness
is this vast blue sky that's infinite,

00:31:35.844 --> 00:31:37.994
and my thoughts are just little clouds.

00:31:38.014 --> 00:31:38.304
Yes.

00:31:38.689 --> 00:31:43.529
I think Ram Dass says, they come from
who knows where, they go who knows where.

00:31:43.619 --> 00:31:44.959
And they can seem so big.

00:31:45.139 --> 00:31:46.689
Oh, they can man.

00:31:47.339 --> 00:31:50.009
They block out the entire sky.

00:31:50.209 --> 00:31:51.169
They block out the sun.

00:31:51.169 --> 00:31:51.609
Yeah, yeah.

00:31:51.969 --> 00:31:56.359
But they only, whatever you think they
might think they are, they are just

00:31:56.379 --> 00:31:58.331
little clouds passing through your
vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,

00:31:58.331 --> 00:31:59.864
vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, Awareness.

00:31:59.894 --> 00:32:04.644
It's just that you're probably really
narrowed down in your focus to some

00:32:04.644 --> 00:32:09.244
fucking problem and Yes, thoughts can
artificially give you a more expansive

00:32:09.244 --> 00:32:12.534
sense of your own And don't get me
wrong, I don't walk around expansive,

00:32:12.534 --> 00:32:17.644
I walk around narrowed down on No, you
have to Problems, particularly financial

00:32:17.644 --> 00:32:18.724
ones in the last couple of years.

00:32:19.224 --> 00:32:23.024
So, that's why this space is nice too,
because I get to expand a little bit.

00:32:23.194 --> 00:32:24.364
Alright, I'll hit you with another one.

00:32:25.244 --> 00:32:27.424
Speak your truth quietly and clearly.

00:32:27.645 --> 00:32:29.015
Yeah, well, I've never been good at that.

00:32:29.125 --> 00:32:30.075
Yeah, I've never been good at it.

00:32:30.105 --> 00:32:33.565
I always spoke it fairly
loudly and arrogantly.

00:32:34.995 --> 00:32:35.345
Me too.

00:32:35.675 --> 00:32:38.395
Especially once online came
into my life 20 years ago.

00:32:38.395 --> 00:32:44.995
Spoken it abrasively and pridefully
and ostentatiously and, you know,

00:32:44.995 --> 00:32:47.255
all the sins, Joe, all the sins.

00:32:47.255 --> 00:32:48.255
And here, I've got something.

00:32:48.255 --> 00:32:50.005
This is, this is, I just thought
about this the other day.

00:32:50.560 --> 00:32:52.130
I've kept this for about 30 years.

00:32:52.690 --> 00:32:57.780
Okay, so, a friend of mine, Gundiva, I
don't know, 21st birthday maybe, he drew

00:32:57.780 --> 00:33:00.760
a picture of like this old samurai, right?

00:33:01.410 --> 00:33:05.560
And you know, he's got a beard and grey
hair and he's, he's stooped a little.

00:33:06.420 --> 00:33:11.035
And it says, wise warrior on
the back, I salute you, thank

00:33:11.035 --> 00:33:13.305
for all your years of fine talk.

00:33:15.985 --> 00:33:17.765
I now approach again.

00:33:19.355 --> 00:33:20.075
For Pali.

00:33:20.675 --> 00:33:22.945
With you, it's a most prized treasure.

00:33:23.295 --> 00:33:26.825
Now, this actually took me back a little.

00:33:26.865 --> 00:33:28.105
I was like, wait a minute.

00:33:29.415 --> 00:33:31.135
I don't feel like a wise warrior.

00:33:31.155 --> 00:33:37.225
I actually feel really mixed up and,
uh, unwise and foolish, honestly.

00:33:37.795 --> 00:33:41.455
Despite saying many fine, wise,
and smart sounding things, I'm

00:33:41.455 --> 00:33:44.675
actually Probably not that at all.

00:33:44.845 --> 00:33:48.495
And I think all the times adults
told me I was clever and wise,

00:33:48.495 --> 00:33:49.715
I think that was a mistake.

00:33:49.795 --> 00:33:51.555
And I think that I believed it too much.

00:33:51.555 --> 00:33:54.255
But then he explained, he
said, well, yeah, but there's

00:33:54.255 --> 00:33:55.405
also another message here.

00:33:55.415 --> 00:33:58.115
And I was like, uh huh, what is it?

00:33:58.125 --> 00:34:04.890
He said, well, the wise warrior does
not take out the weapons, ever really.

00:34:05.535 --> 00:34:08.785
Unless it's absolutely necessary,
but they'll find some other way.

00:34:09.495 --> 00:34:14.641
And you don't need to walk around,
you know, guns drawn, ready to

00:34:14.641 --> 00:34:18.041
shoot people down at a moment's
notice for having the wrong opinion.

00:34:18.041 --> 00:34:19.481
And I'm like, Oh, okay.

00:34:19.951 --> 00:34:21.141
Oh, I see what you're telling me.

00:34:21.141 --> 00:34:21.971
I've thought about this.

00:34:22.391 --> 00:34:22.651
Yeah.

00:34:22.691 --> 00:34:25.761
I've been bullying people
intellectually at times over the

00:34:25.761 --> 00:34:28.301
years and you know, it's not okay.

00:34:28.381 --> 00:34:28.791
Yeah.

00:34:28.801 --> 00:34:29.421
I think we.

00:34:29.441 --> 00:34:29.621
Yeah.

00:34:29.621 --> 00:34:29.691
Yeah.

00:34:29.951 --> 00:34:35.491
We've ended up, I've ended up, I
couldn't read this until I was in my 40s.

00:34:35.621 --> 00:34:35.991
Yeah.

00:34:36.101 --> 00:34:39.321
I wasn't ready to speak my
truth quietly and clearly.

00:34:39.551 --> 00:34:39.881
No.

00:34:40.221 --> 00:34:42.291
So, now I'm ready.

00:34:42.341 --> 00:34:45.351
And the other statement that goes
right next to it, and listen to others.

00:34:45.561 --> 00:34:46.161
Yeah.

00:34:46.636 --> 00:34:48.386
That's even more important, I would say.

00:34:48.496 --> 00:34:49.116
Wow.

00:34:49.396 --> 00:34:51.316
I learnt that in addiction recovery.

00:34:51.446 --> 00:34:51.876
Yeah.

00:34:52.246 --> 00:34:55.416
Because I had to sit in rooms with people
I didn't know and just listen to them.

00:34:55.586 --> 00:34:59.606
And some of them, this is the worst part,
Sam, weren't even that cool or smart.

00:34:59.616 --> 00:35:00.066
No.

00:35:00.226 --> 00:35:01.196
Or interesting.

00:35:01.346 --> 00:35:01.706
No.

00:35:01.906 --> 00:35:03.176
But I still had to listen to them.

00:35:03.196 --> 00:35:05.166
Even to the dull and the ignorant.

00:35:05.306 --> 00:35:07.666
I had, and I learnt They
too have their story.

00:35:07.777 --> 00:35:09.217
I learnt to listen.

00:35:09.607 --> 00:35:12.587
And I think I've brought that in
here, otherwise I probably wouldn't

00:35:12.587 --> 00:35:15.207
have been able to do a podcast with
anyone the way I was because I was

00:35:15.207 --> 00:35:17.007
just waiting for my turn to speak.

00:35:17.607 --> 00:35:20.367
So I'm not absorbing information.

00:35:20.533 --> 00:35:24.377
well that's a great thing about this
hobby here of ours, that it is, like,

00:35:24.587 --> 00:35:28.167
we've talked about it as therapy, we've
talked about it maybe even as a spiritual

00:35:28.167 --> 00:35:34.177
practice, and, uh, You know, there's
some, there's some sort of theologians

00:35:34.177 --> 00:35:39.407
and kind of justice type Christians I
listen to on pods that talk about the

00:35:39.517 --> 00:35:44.087
enormous importance of just the company
of others in a spirit of equality and

00:35:44.087 --> 00:35:48.037
listening and being with one another and
how important that is and that they're

00:35:48.037 --> 00:35:52.851
absolutely right and This pod has been
a really great muscle building exercise

00:35:52.981 --> 00:35:56.621
I'm getting better and better and better
at catching myself listening to talk,

00:35:56.871 --> 00:36:02.261
and I'm getting better and better at
just listening within this context, and

00:36:02.381 --> 00:36:03.681
whether I've applied that elsewhere.

00:36:04.261 --> 00:36:09.031
Well, I'll tell you, so, about January
the 6th, no, no, no, yesterday, the day

00:36:09.031 --> 00:36:13.016
before, I wrote In my, you know, I got
a new journal for Christmas and a set

00:36:13.016 --> 00:36:20.793
of pencils from the kids and, uh, and I,
just yesterday I wrote, Listening Journal.

00:36:21.163 --> 00:36:25.773
The words just came to me and I
thought, I would like to make a

00:36:25.923 --> 00:36:32.523
habit of writing down things that
I heard others say, as, as a way of

00:36:32.523 --> 00:36:34.213
honouring things that others have said.

00:36:34.793 --> 00:36:38.192
And, I could probably start
most of all with feedback I get

00:36:38.202 --> 00:36:41.522
from others and respect it and
write it down and accept it.

00:36:41.822 --> 00:36:43.002
I'm willing to hand it out.

00:36:45.792 --> 00:36:47.702
If you don't listen,
like, you can't learn.

00:36:49.312 --> 00:36:54.672
Yeah, it's been, it's been a hard
lesson, but uh, it's a skill that

00:36:54.692 --> 00:36:59.192
I've built and I've got, yeah, I'm,
I'm, and I'm kind of there now.

00:36:59.192 --> 00:37:03.002
I kind of do it with work too and
turns out other people are kind of

00:37:03.002 --> 00:37:07.702
interesting, like even the ones who
on face value aren't that interesting,

00:37:08.162 --> 00:37:09.682
or aren't that pretty or whatever.

00:37:10.022 --> 00:37:12.052
people have some wild stories, man.

00:37:12.252 --> 00:37:12.872
Oh, they do.

00:37:13.202 --> 00:37:16.432
Like, the most ordinary,
unassuming looking person.

00:37:16.442 --> 00:37:16.762
Yeah.

00:37:17.482 --> 00:37:17.802
What?

00:37:17.992 --> 00:37:18.392
Yeah.

00:37:18.462 --> 00:37:19.512
They've done some shit.

00:37:19.532 --> 00:37:23.562
You can dig out something crazy if
you want to, and it can be amazing.

00:37:23.902 --> 00:37:28.182
Taxi drivers, and like People at tram
stops, and I've actually done a lot of it.

00:37:28.182 --> 00:37:30.192
I've done a lot of listening to strangers.

00:37:30.312 --> 00:37:33.942
I think I was less good at it with
family and friends and, and partners.

00:37:34.032 --> 00:37:36.552
I don't like someone who forces
their story on me though.

00:37:36.552 --> 00:37:39.132
If I don't like a taxi driver
who starts telling me their story

00:37:39.252 --> 00:37:40.212
and I don't want to hear it.

00:37:40.212 --> 00:37:40.542
No, no.

00:37:40.542 --> 00:37:44.112
I actually try to draw them out into
areas where they wouldn't go normally.

00:37:44.172 --> 00:37:45.912
Like, oh, oh, I've heard your bits.

00:37:45.972 --> 00:37:47.622
I'll get a sense of what your material is.

00:37:47.622 --> 00:37:49.002
Now let's talk to the real person.

00:37:49.002 --> 00:37:49.332
You know?

00:37:49.572 --> 00:37:50.112
Yeah.

00:37:50.202 --> 00:37:52.387
You know, but like, and they,
but I think that that quote.

00:37:52.887 --> 00:37:55.537
So was there something you
wanted to add to about the speak

00:37:55.537 --> 00:37:56.897
your truth quietly and clearly?

00:37:57.717 --> 00:37:59.817
No, I just want to, I just want
to keep throwing them at you.

00:38:00.707 --> 00:38:02.647
Well, I think it's a, I
just want to say this.

00:38:02.811 --> 00:38:06.621
I think if I did a whole lot more
speaking my truth quietly and clearly and

00:38:06.641 --> 00:38:10.111
concisely, it would be a very good thing.

00:38:10.151 --> 00:38:10.531
So.

00:38:11.121 --> 00:38:12.061
Yeah.

00:38:12.741 --> 00:38:13.081
Yeah.

00:38:13.081 --> 00:38:16.981
I mean, pretty hard in a marriage
to speak your truth at times, Sam.

00:38:17.151 --> 00:38:17.641
Well, yeah.

00:38:18.046 --> 00:38:22.576
But when you do not easy to keep the peace
well, yeah But that's a false solution

00:38:22.576 --> 00:38:28.097
also because if something really does have
to be said we have to be careful you have

00:38:28.097 --> 00:38:31.907
to think Sort through your own thoughts
and whether that's work or a friendship

00:38:31.927 --> 00:38:37.187
or, you know, a business partnership or
a romantic partnership or with your own

00:38:37.187 --> 00:38:40.617
children, that you don't need to say
everything that comes to mind, right?

00:38:40.627 --> 00:38:41.747
And so that's the first thing.

00:38:41.907 --> 00:38:44.367
And then, you know, it's like that
impulse purchase you were gonna go for.

00:38:44.367 --> 00:38:47.877
That's what I found myself doing in my
40s that I didn't do when I was younger.

00:38:48.357 --> 00:38:50.637
Thinking stuff and then not saying it.

00:38:50.637 --> 00:38:51.737
And not saying it to anyone.

00:38:51.817 --> 00:38:55.452
Like, especially with my kids, I think,
Yeah, I could give some advice here,

00:38:55.512 --> 00:39:01.832
or I could, I don't, like, yeah, the
other day we were down the beach, and my

00:39:01.832 --> 00:39:06.806
eldest daughter got into a bikini, and
I was like, that is a very small bikini.

00:39:06.846 --> 00:39:08.656
Is it a fearful moment?

00:39:09.836 --> 00:39:11.176
I just realised.

00:39:11.408 --> 00:39:15.798
This old dad phrase popped into
my head, which was like You're not

00:39:15.798 --> 00:39:16.758
going to wear that dress like that.

00:39:16.818 --> 00:39:18.818
No, it was like, so where's
the rest of your bikini?

00:39:19.288 --> 00:39:20.278
Ah, you forgot the rest.

00:39:21.058 --> 00:39:23.498
And then I just had to
be like, you know what?

00:39:24.038 --> 00:39:25.538
You don't want to be that dad.

00:39:25.548 --> 00:39:25.858
No.

00:39:26.018 --> 00:39:28.528
So, she knows what she's doing, somewhat.

00:39:28.698 --> 00:39:29.098
Yeah.

00:39:29.258 --> 00:39:30.858
It's, it's fine.

00:39:30.868 --> 00:39:31.948
What harm are you trying to prevent?

00:39:32.218 --> 00:39:33.658
And what do I know about bikinis?

00:39:33.658 --> 00:39:34.718
I've never worn one.

00:39:34.816 --> 00:39:40.686
so, like, I find a lot of moments with
a teenager of just, go to say something

00:39:40.726 --> 00:39:45.650
and shut the fuck up, and just give them
a hug, because that's more useful anyway.

00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:48.810
Be available, be someone they
can come to you, that's it.

00:39:49.615 --> 00:39:52.525
But you still have those, I
still have all these old dad

00:39:52.525 --> 00:39:53.955
phrases going through my head.

00:39:54.225 --> 00:40:00.875
I just, I just try to refrain from using
them and then just say bro instead,

00:40:00.885 --> 00:40:02.745
you know, bro, just say bro a lot.

00:40:02.745 --> 00:40:04.295
Seems to be how they communicate.

00:40:04.365 --> 00:40:05.155
Oh, I love it.

00:40:05.155 --> 00:40:07.615
It's a good, it's a fun one.

00:40:08.040 --> 00:40:12.860
And also, like, the stuff from the
ancestors, you know, the inherited

00:40:12.860 --> 00:40:16.340
phrases, I've got heaps heaps from my
I don't even know where that came from.

00:40:16.460 --> 00:40:19.930
It's in the cultural DNA, you
know, and it expresses itself.

00:40:19.930 --> 00:40:21.770
It is in the That one is, yeah.

00:40:21.770 --> 00:40:24.160
You don't know it's there until the
context appears, and then you find

00:40:24.160 --> 00:40:26.220
yourself saying you'll catch your
death of cold, and you're like,

00:40:26.240 --> 00:40:28.730
what the, who, what just happened?

00:40:28.730 --> 00:40:29.920
And I think it's really cool.

00:40:30.220 --> 00:40:33.580
That you find yourself being your mother,
find yourself being your father, I mean

00:40:33.580 --> 00:40:36.710
it can be alarming and frightening and
alienating as well, but it can also

00:40:36.730 --> 00:40:40.750
be tremendously comforting because you
know that they'll always be there inside

00:40:40.750 --> 00:40:44.880
you for better or worse, and you know,
and like, also, you know, I think about

00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:50.000
this a lot as a teacher and as a, just
a Joe citizen, that, you know, I think

00:40:50.010 --> 00:40:55.280
every one of us has a duty to consider
the things of the past, what is worth

00:40:55.280 --> 00:40:58.810
keeping and what isn't, and not to see
that through an ideological lens, but

00:40:58.810 --> 00:41:00.370
just to ask really simple questions.

00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:01.330
Is it useful?

00:41:01.330 --> 00:41:01.800
Is it beautiful?

00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:05.460
Yeah, and that's why I want to
say conservative things about what

00:41:05.460 --> 00:41:07.700
my female children are wearing.

00:41:07.700 --> 00:41:09.840
I don't want to be that guy.

00:41:09.850 --> 00:41:11.140
I think you're just going
to make it more fun.

00:41:11.715 --> 00:41:12.155
Anyway.

00:41:12.165 --> 00:41:12.625
Yeah.

00:41:12.625 --> 00:41:15.625
So just don't say anything and it's fine.

00:41:15.795 --> 00:41:19.745
Yeah, and I think it can really be a
wall with our children if we come at

00:41:19.745 --> 00:41:22.735
them with too much advice and wisdom
because it can make them hesitate to

00:41:22.735 --> 00:41:26.235
bring things forward because they're going
to get a lecture and Another older man.

00:41:27.565 --> 00:41:30.855
around these addiction recovery circles
that I do have to speak in coded

00:41:30.855 --> 00:41:33.335
terms about to not Sure, I gotcha.

00:41:34.335 --> 00:41:38.905
But he had teenage daughters and he said,
you know what, I'll just try and give

00:41:38.905 --> 00:41:41.645
them a good firm hug from time to time.

00:41:41.815 --> 00:41:42.105
Yeah.

00:41:42.325 --> 00:41:47.320
And the rest of it, I can't do much about
You don't know what's going on in their

00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:53.180
friendship dynamics or boyfriends or like,
you don't know what's really going on.

00:41:53.200 --> 00:41:57.260
Well, you need to hope, I think,
and work towards maintaining an

00:41:57.270 --> 00:41:59.140
availability and an approachability.

00:41:59.160 --> 00:42:02.050
Like, I think you have to really check
in with how comfortable are you with

00:42:02.050 --> 00:42:03.730
bringing things to me if you need to?

00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:07.230
And are there things you're not sure
whether you need to bring to me?

00:42:07.230 --> 00:42:08.700
Well, why don't you just do that anyway?

00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:10.820
Tell me whether it's anything
to worry about or not.

00:42:11.090 --> 00:42:11.210
Yeah.

00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:17.170
If parents present as too perfect or
too invulnerable, if there's no chink in

00:42:17.170 --> 00:42:21.250
the armour, if you seem like you've got
your shit together too much, kids can

00:42:21.250 --> 00:42:22.570
really hesitate to bring things forward.

00:42:22.570 --> 00:42:25.479
There's plenty of chinks in my armour and
they're very, I'll give you another one.

00:42:26.594 --> 00:42:29.754
With a problem and you just pound
them with advice and bury them

00:42:29.754 --> 00:42:31.724
in an avalanche, that's no good.

00:42:31.724 --> 00:42:32.504
They're going to hesitate.

00:42:32.554 --> 00:42:33.134
Yeah.

00:42:33.364 --> 00:42:37.564
And so like, I think that I've seen
old timers just really deal with

00:42:37.574 --> 00:42:42.044
situations really concisely, just
some brief little pithy saying, and

00:42:42.044 --> 00:42:43.454
it's like, that's all that was needed.

00:42:43.644 --> 00:42:44.074
Yes.

00:42:44.124 --> 00:42:48.506
You know, And one last thing that I have
found, I've had some wonderful chats to

00:42:48.506 --> 00:42:51.986
recovering addicts because they are good
listeners and they, they are very good

00:42:51.986 --> 00:42:53.676
at accepting people for who they are.

00:42:53.696 --> 00:42:56.936
And that's like, that's one
of the good things about it.

00:42:56.956 --> 00:42:57.546
Yeah.

00:42:57.596 --> 00:42:57.896
Yeah.

00:42:58.476 --> 00:42:58.766
Yeah.

00:42:58.766 --> 00:42:59.986
It gets onto the next thing.

00:43:00.126 --> 00:43:03.356
Avoid loud and vexatious,
loud and aggressive persons,

00:43:03.416 --> 00:43:04.516
vexatious to the spirit.

00:43:04.526 --> 00:43:08.026
If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain or bitter

00:43:08.296 --> 00:43:11.306
for always there will be greater
and lesser persons than yourself.

00:43:11.691 --> 00:43:16.126
Yeah, I can largely avoid loud
and aggressive persons unless

00:43:16.126 --> 00:43:17.346
I watch the news, I guess.

00:43:17.586 --> 00:43:19.205
Oh, 100%, yeah.

00:43:19.206 --> 00:43:20.036
Stay away from the news.

00:43:20.246 --> 00:43:24.766
Uh, but, yeah, comparing yourself
to others, you know, I'm the

00:43:24.766 --> 00:43:26.816
working poor at the moment.

00:43:26.916 --> 00:43:30.156
And that might change one day, but
for the moment, I make less money

00:43:30.156 --> 00:43:31.896
than pretty much everyone I know.

00:43:32.070 --> 00:43:34.235
in my peer group, who's got a job.

00:43:34.605 --> 00:43:36.065
No one makes less money than me.

00:43:36.140 --> 00:43:40.021
and a lot of the things I'm noticing
they take for granted, I just can't do.

00:43:40.761 --> 00:43:43.741
So Well, that's how I felt for
all of my twenties and thirties.

00:43:43.751 --> 00:43:46.691
Yeah, I didn't see, I was doing all right.

00:43:46.751 --> 00:43:48.601
I was doing all right back then.

00:43:48.691 --> 00:43:53.251
Um, I'm sort of having
a late stage poverty.

00:43:53.731 --> 00:43:58.321
So I might, if you compare yourself with
others, you may become vain or bitter.

00:43:58.331 --> 00:43:59.361
I mean, you definitely will.

00:43:59.431 --> 00:44:01.120
For there will always be.

00:44:01.121 --> 00:44:03.511
Be greater and lesser
persons than yourself.

00:44:03.531 --> 00:44:04.041
Yeah.

00:44:04.061 --> 00:44:08.251
But again, I think I'm on pretty,
I'm doing okay at this one.

00:44:08.251 --> 00:44:13.024
Like I'm sort of like, I think the more
harmful comparison is like the moral one.

00:44:13.729 --> 00:44:15.059
Yeah, I'm a worse person.

00:44:15.109 --> 00:44:15.609
I'm a better person.

00:44:15.609 --> 00:44:18.289
Yeah, because I do good work.

00:44:18.649 --> 00:44:22.709
Like I do, I connect with people
with a mental illness sometimes,

00:44:22.889 --> 00:44:25.349
at least a couple of times a
week during my working week.

00:44:25.349 --> 00:44:30.369
I have a good moment and that person says,
I'm really glad you came to see me today.

00:44:30.379 --> 00:44:31.799
It really helped me.

00:44:32.409 --> 00:44:37.159
And they're, and, and, and to be honest,
those are the people I work with, uh,

00:44:37.189 --> 00:44:38.959
having a harder time in life than I am.

00:44:38.999 --> 00:44:39.509
Of course.

00:44:39.509 --> 00:44:39.654
Of course.

00:44:39.894 --> 00:44:44.114
So, they're just not my peers, they're
just not the people I went to uni with,

00:44:44.114 --> 00:44:46.268
or high school with, or hung out with.

00:44:46.268 --> 00:44:49.594
But consequently, you could
come across someone with similar

00:44:50.354 --> 00:44:52.094
demographics in that sense, yeah.

00:44:52.154 --> 00:44:55.604
It's the old cliche of compare,
despair, just don't compare.

00:44:55.664 --> 00:45:00.814
No, don't compare looks, don't compare
moral worth, don't compare apparent

00:45:00.814 --> 00:45:07.124
success, but a left wing person, uh,
must take issue, uh, and you've given

00:45:07.134 --> 00:45:08.664
me permission here to bring this up.

00:45:09.094 --> 00:45:09.874
I think we ought to.

00:45:10.569 --> 00:45:14.669
So, to compare income, despite the fact
that it is gross, it is an uncomfortable

00:45:14.669 --> 00:45:17.759
topic, and I've avoided thinking and
talking about money over the years.

00:45:17.759 --> 00:45:21.579
I like it when people are willing to talk
about money, because most people aren't.

00:45:21.609 --> 00:45:21.859
Yes.

00:45:21.889 --> 00:45:24.779
I've spoken to people my age about how
they Well, unless they're bragging.

00:45:24.779 --> 00:45:25.329
I don't like that either.

00:45:25.329 --> 00:45:25.689
No, no, no.

00:45:25.689 --> 00:45:26.769
Just a proper honest chat.

00:45:26.869 --> 00:45:30.019
This was more like, hey, I
know people don't normally talk

00:45:30.029 --> 00:45:31.299
about money, but I don't care.

00:45:31.309 --> 00:45:32.139
I'll talk about it.

00:45:32.339 --> 00:45:35.229
So this is why I own a
property in Brunswick.

00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:36.679
Well, my dad died.

00:45:36.884 --> 00:45:39.494
And I got this chunk of money, and
I've worked in the same government

00:45:39.494 --> 00:45:41.504
job for 20 years, and guess what?

00:45:41.544 --> 00:45:44.124
I own a fucking house in
Brunswick, and it's like, yeah,

00:45:44.134 --> 00:45:45.634
it was really refreshing, man.

00:45:45.644 --> 00:45:46.244
It is, it is.

00:45:46.244 --> 00:45:49.714
I'd rather have that conversation
to be like, and you know, and then

00:45:49.714 --> 00:45:53.524
I can say, well, I sold a house, and
yeah, had a breakup, and never really,

00:45:53.597 --> 00:45:55.891
never should have, never recovered,
shoulda, coulda, woulda done something

00:45:55.891 --> 00:45:59.613
else with that money, and it didn't,
yeah, and now I'm broke,  Or people

00:45:59.613 --> 00:46:02.813
saying, you know, I've earned this
much average for the last 10 years.

00:46:02.813 --> 00:46:04.453
I'll put this much away every month.

00:46:04.453 --> 00:46:06.663
And I used this kind
of investment vehicle.

00:46:06.883 --> 00:46:08.443
Like, I think those are
useful conversations.

00:46:08.643 --> 00:46:11.383
Oh, and here's some expenses
I cut out that I don't miss,

00:46:11.693 --> 00:46:13.013
you know, that's all useful.

00:46:13.443 --> 00:46:17.173
And I think the most useful stuff to
talk about with money is Is the feelings

00:46:17.203 --> 00:46:21.503
and, like, beliefs, the kind of magical
and cursed beliefs that people have

00:46:21.503 --> 00:46:27.033
about it, the, and I think money, sort
of like, like sex and other people,

00:46:27.203 --> 00:46:31.743
it's a field onto which we project all
kinds of stuff, and it's, the way, the

00:46:31.743 --> 00:46:35.583
way we think and feel about money is
actually very, very complicated and, uh,

00:46:35.593 --> 00:46:37.818
a lot of the time needs, Therapising.

00:46:37.818 --> 00:46:38.874
It needs to be examined
and straightened out.

00:46:38.874 --> 00:46:42.168
Look, I've been completely
distracted by the thought that it's

00:46:42.248 --> 00:46:44.208
a complete illusion based on nothing.

00:46:44.848 --> 00:46:46.938
Well, it's a powerful illusion
that has leverage in the world.

00:46:47.748 --> 00:46:52.298
I think your man, Yo, whatever
his name is, Noah Harari, says

00:46:52.298 --> 00:46:54.078
it's like a universal language.

00:46:54.118 --> 00:46:54.548
It is.

00:46:54.578 --> 00:46:56.498
It's more of a language
than any other language.

00:46:56.508 --> 00:46:59.668
It makes all things
translatable and commensurate.

00:46:59.668 --> 00:47:02.208
Yeah, so, I've always been, I was
like, but if we all just realise,

00:47:02.268 --> 00:47:05.891
when it, Even when it was based on
gold, it was pretty odd, because

00:47:05.891 --> 00:47:07.251
it was based on some shiny rocks.

00:47:07.281 --> 00:47:09.231
Well, the conservatives who
dream of the gold standard, yeah.

00:47:09.241 --> 00:47:10.831
But it was based on something.

00:47:10.861 --> 00:47:11.131
Yeah, sure.

00:47:11.141 --> 00:47:13.411
Some, some shiny rocks
in a building somewhere.

00:47:13.421 --> 00:47:13.770
Yeah, yeah.

00:47:13.771 --> 00:47:15.221
Now it's based on nothing.

00:47:15.501 --> 00:47:19.241
All it takes is for everyone
to wake up from the illusion.

00:47:19.271 --> 00:47:21.961
Well, there was still speculative
bubbles back in the gold days, I

00:47:21.961 --> 00:47:23.781
mean, I think I, I think what Yeah.

00:47:24.536 --> 00:47:27.926
What makes me realise money is
more solid than I think it is, is

00:47:27.926 --> 00:47:30.836
to realise that there was money
before there was capitalism.

00:47:31.056 --> 00:47:31.656
100%.

00:47:31.716 --> 00:47:33.666
There was money back in ancient Sumer.

00:47:33.726 --> 00:47:34.086
Yes.

00:47:34.456 --> 00:47:36.446
And then I've got to
get into my head, Joe.

00:47:36.756 --> 00:47:37.516
Money?

00:47:37.836 --> 00:47:39.516
It's not going away.

00:47:39.516 --> 00:47:40.896
It might be based on nothing.

00:47:40.896 --> 00:47:44.166
It might be a fiction of the
Imagine the collective imagination.

00:47:44.226 --> 00:47:44.346
Yeah.

00:47:44.556 --> 00:47:48.966
But it is going to dominate your
life from now until you die.

00:47:49.146 --> 00:47:51.996
Bertol Brecht, the worst kind of
illiterate is the political illiterate

00:47:51.996 --> 00:47:55.296
who says, I'm not interested in
politics, but does not realize

00:47:55.296 --> 00:47:56.916
that politics is interested in him.

00:47:56.921 --> 00:47:57.061
Yeah.

00:47:57.061 --> 00:47:57.782
Whether he wants, yeah.

00:47:57.787 --> 00:48:00.246
Money's interested in me,
whether I, and that's.

00:48:00.561 --> 00:48:01.791
And I'm learning, Sam.

00:48:01.791 --> 00:48:05.551
I'm 44 and I'm learning how to watch
every dollar for the first time in my

00:48:05.551 --> 00:48:07.701
life, because there is no escape anymore.

00:48:07.881 --> 00:48:09.871
How many people never
think about the idea?

00:48:10.171 --> 00:48:11.491
That, oh, I need more money.

00:48:11.591 --> 00:48:12.041
Earn more.

00:48:12.091 --> 00:48:12.551
Okay.

00:48:12.661 --> 00:48:15.631
Also, you might be able to
find some savings somewhere.

00:48:15.701 --> 00:48:17.641
Like, and it's not a
dirty thing to suggest.

00:48:17.661 --> 00:48:18.651
Now, having said that.

00:48:18.901 --> 00:48:20.461
Yeah, but I've paired all of that.

00:48:20.501 --> 00:48:20.781
Anyway.

00:48:20.801 --> 00:48:21.481
You've done all that.

00:48:21.861 --> 00:48:22.151
Yeah.

00:48:22.531 --> 00:48:23.511
I'm on the other side of that.

00:48:23.531 --> 00:48:26.771
But what I'll say about this, I think
there's an area where we ought to

00:48:26.771 --> 00:48:30.901
compare ourselves with others and that,
that there's a moral duty to do it,

00:48:31.001 --> 00:48:36.631
I would say, which is when we might
realize we're in a position to help.

00:48:37.166 --> 00:48:40.264
Or that, we're in a position
to, to change, we sure ought to

00:48:40.264 --> 00:48:41.434
change something we're doing.

00:48:41.834 --> 00:48:45.968
But the most important example, don't
get mad, class consciousness, and

00:48:45.978 --> 00:48:50.388
figuring out who you really have what
in common with, and not what you imagine

00:48:50.388 --> 00:48:51.508
you have in common with, you know.

00:48:51.518 --> 00:48:56.168
See, this poem is about self
sufficiency, whereas I was raised

00:48:56.168 --> 00:48:59.378
on class consciousness, and class
consciousness isn't helping pay

00:48:59.378 --> 00:49:03.168
my rent, self sufficiency is
going to help me get through.

00:49:03.309 --> 00:49:07.879
a sort of a philosophical acceptance
is going to help me get through these

00:49:07.879 --> 00:49:12.049
tough times much better than imagining
the overthrow of capitalism will.

00:49:12.369 --> 00:49:16.009
Oh no, I think we can stop short of the
overthrow of capitalism and just go with,

00:49:16.019 --> 00:49:21.739
for example, every single renter and every
single person in this, in anywhere in the

00:49:21.739 --> 00:49:26.709
world who has, you know, let's say less
than 50 percent equity in their mortgage.

00:49:26.749 --> 00:49:28.269
I mean, you're all renters, basically.

00:49:28.739 --> 00:49:31.689
So, once you're in that situation,
whether it's a mortgage or not, it's

00:49:31.689 --> 00:49:33.289
an illusion of ownership ultimately.

00:49:33.299 --> 00:49:35.899
It's not actually yours
if the payments stop.

00:49:36.039 --> 00:49:39.159
It will not be yours for very
long if your payments stop.

00:49:39.389 --> 00:49:40.269
You are a renter.

00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:44.369
And I think that the people with
huge mortgages and the people

00:49:44.369 --> 00:49:47.799
renting need to realize they have
much more in common than they think.

00:49:47.864 --> 00:49:52.191
or even just starting with the renters,
the amount that can be achieved As

00:49:52.191 --> 00:49:54.121
a rugged individual, not very much.

00:49:54.321 --> 00:49:57.481
The amount that can be achieved
working with other renters in an

00:49:57.491 --> 00:50:02.131
advocacy and, you know, union type
of situation is vastly greater.

00:50:02.401 --> 00:50:05.181
But no one ever cooperated
with anyone else until they

00:50:05.181 --> 00:50:06.981
recognised common cause first.

00:50:07.141 --> 00:50:10.411
Whether that's a bushfire or a flood
or the kind of organic solidarity

00:50:10.411 --> 00:50:14.048
that comes out of those moments, or a
moment of hunger or famine or whatever,

00:50:14.618 --> 00:50:18.508
uh, where, you know, Awful, uh,
things can happen, but also wonderful

00:50:18.508 --> 00:50:22.668
cooperative things can happen, and
until you recognize what you have in

00:50:22.668 --> 00:50:24.348
common with others, you can't do that.

00:50:24.398 --> 00:50:27.506
So, I hope that this poem is
not saying, ignore what you've

00:50:27.506 --> 00:50:28.616
got in common with others.

00:50:28.936 --> 00:50:34.635
I think it's more referring to
comparing looks or moral value or,

00:50:34.635 --> 00:50:37.160
you know, oh, well your children are
better behaved than mine, or, uh.

00:50:37.491 --> 00:50:37.741
Hmm.

00:50:37.751 --> 00:50:40.661
Your partner's better looking than
mine or your boat is bigger than mine.

00:50:40.661 --> 00:50:41.631
I think that's pointless.

00:50:41.641 --> 00:50:46.621
For me, it's a, it's a simple wisdom
replacing a more complex ideological

00:50:46.741 --> 00:50:48.361
framework that I was raised with.

00:50:48.891 --> 00:50:52.218
And I'm not saying it's right for
anyone else, but for me, it helps.

00:50:52.308 --> 00:50:55.788
All right, I want to, I want to
hit you with another one and then

00:50:55.788 --> 00:50:57.048
we can probably start winding up.

00:50:57.152 --> 00:51:00.722
take kindly the counsel
of the years, gracefully

00:51:00.722 --> 00:51:02.502
surrendering the things of youth.

00:51:02.572 --> 00:51:04.842
I knew you'd bring this one up,
and you're right to bring it up.

00:51:05.592 --> 00:51:09.802
What things have you let go of, as
just, you know, that's in your youth?

00:51:10.192 --> 00:51:15.042
Ah, I, I actually reckon I'm
turning 45 in a couple of weeks.

00:51:15.122 --> 00:51:17.102
I'm, I'm doing pretty good on this front.

00:51:17.552 --> 00:51:17.832
Yep.

00:51:17.892 --> 00:51:19.214
you're a pretty good Marie Kondo er.

00:51:19.401 --> 00:51:22.171
I started wearing bright
tracksuits as I got older.

00:51:22.171 --> 00:51:27.061
But that's embracing, if you look at 70
year old Italian guys down in Brighton.

00:51:27.081 --> 00:51:28.271
They've been doing it for years.

00:51:28.871 --> 00:51:32.591
So that's heading towards where
I want to be as an older gent.

00:51:32.601 --> 00:51:33.051
Yeah.

00:51:33.451 --> 00:51:34.551
Is in a bright tracksuit.

00:51:34.581 --> 00:51:37.931
So that's, I don't think that's mutton
dressed as lamb, quite the opposite.

00:51:38.066 --> 00:51:43.136
but everything else, it's like, I've
got a boring dad car, I live a boring

00:51:43.136 --> 00:51:46.797
dad life, really I'm just trying to
get through the day to get a nice early

00:51:46.797 --> 00:51:51.067
night in bed, and then I wake up much
earlier than I kind of want to, but

00:51:51.087 --> 00:51:52.547
I just have to make the most of it.

00:51:52.714 --> 00:51:58.714
you know, I, I, I've kind of 100
percent given up on ever being super

00:51:58.714 --> 00:52:01.524
fit and, Buff and anything like that.

00:52:01.524 --> 00:52:06.254
I'm kind of just accepted that my body
is my body and it's not a great one.

00:52:06.254 --> 00:52:07.304
It's not a terrible one.

00:52:07.314 --> 00:52:09.024
It's just an average one and sure.

00:52:09.524 --> 00:52:11.984
I've only ever gotten anywhere
with ladies by talking a lot

00:52:12.014 --> 00:52:14.444
anyway, so, you know, who cares?

00:52:15.164 --> 00:52:18.994
Like, it's so much acceptance, whereas
I could be like, all right, now's

00:52:18.994 --> 00:52:23.724
the time I get fit or now's the time
I blah, blah, and it's like, no, I

00:52:23.724 --> 00:52:25.044
just want to have a good sit down.

00:52:25.284 --> 00:52:27.604
I don't think you need to do
any half marathons or anything.

00:52:27.634 --> 00:52:33.264
I don't want to, but like lycra, get on
the bike, but I do think I would like

00:52:33.264 --> 00:52:38.926
to maintain Like my somewhat limited
strength, into aging because it helps

00:52:38.926 --> 00:52:40.146
reduce falls and things like that.

00:52:40.146 --> 00:52:42.726
Yeah, but what are the things of
youth that you've surrendered?

00:52:42.786 --> 00:52:44.886
A bit of weights would be,
you know, a very good idea.

00:52:45.096 --> 00:52:46.746
Oh, I've let go of all kinds of things.

00:52:46.796 --> 00:52:48.286
I mean Being famous?

00:52:48.336 --> 00:52:48.666
Yeah.

00:52:48.866 --> 00:52:52.338
Partying, Well, see, I've let
go of all drugs and alcohol.

00:52:52.448 --> 00:52:52.698
Yeah.

00:52:52.928 --> 00:52:56.158
And that's the one, you know, then
people have their trashy fiftieths.

00:52:56.693 --> 00:53:00.613
Yeah, and it's like the last Iraq,
can we take another acid trip,

00:53:00.613 --> 00:53:02.283
can we do another bag of cocaine?

00:53:02.293 --> 00:53:03.583
Do you know what a lot
of people do instead?

00:53:04.108 --> 00:53:06.258
Let's just take a trip to
somewhere nice with a mate.

00:53:07.038 --> 00:53:09.608
But they do, there are those
trashy 50s, where you're kind

00:53:09.608 --> 00:53:11.908
of like, well, let it go, guys.

00:53:11.908 --> 00:53:16.398
I think it's a great idea to have a
dance on any occasion, including the

00:53:16.398 --> 00:53:20.854
50s, but you don't need to get on
the bags, you just, you just don't.

00:53:20.854 --> 00:53:23.598
I don't know, they're coming,
that's, that's, that's coming at

00:53:23.598 --> 00:53:25.188
us in five years is all the 50s.

00:53:25.558 --> 00:53:28.108
I'm trying to remember the last
time I had chemicals other than the

00:53:28.108 --> 00:53:29.478
ones the bloody doctor gives me.

00:53:29.788 --> 00:53:30.338
Oh really?

00:53:30.388 --> 00:53:30.728
Ah.

00:53:30.758 --> 00:53:33.558
So you haven't ruled it
out like me, so you could.

00:53:33.568 --> 00:53:33.978
But I.

00:53:34.468 --> 00:53:37.488
I could, but I honestly, whenever
I think about it, I just go,

00:53:37.808 --> 00:53:38.848
you think about the next day?

00:53:38.878 --> 00:53:39.068
No.

00:53:39.538 --> 00:53:40.698
I think, yes.

00:53:41.478 --> 00:53:43.218
So that was the intermediate step, right?

00:53:43.968 --> 00:53:46.968
Counting ahead three days from that
and going, that'll be a Tuesday.

00:53:46.968 --> 00:53:47.298
No.

00:53:47.348 --> 00:53:47.468
Yeah.

00:53:47.762 --> 00:53:47.842
yeah.

00:53:48.442 --> 00:53:49.702
Westgate Wednesdays.

00:53:49.792 --> 00:53:51.432
I mean, are we talking,
I've got a week off here.

00:53:51.792 --> 00:53:52.452
When's that happening?

00:53:52.542 --> 00:53:52.632
Yeah.

00:53:53.082 --> 00:53:53.462
No.

00:53:53.682 --> 00:53:57.272
But, but then I got one step
further than that, which was, Oh,

00:53:57.272 --> 00:54:00.532
she don't really feel this burning
desire to like get off my head.

00:54:00.532 --> 00:54:01.382
I just don't.

00:54:01.882 --> 00:54:07.842
I did see a good gag about now
I'm in my 40s, 5pm preparing

00:54:07.842 --> 00:54:08.822
to wake up the next morning.

00:54:09.462 --> 00:54:09.702
Yes.

00:54:11.042 --> 00:54:13.672
I can't be doing anything in the evening.

00:54:14.722 --> 00:54:15.122
The night before.

00:54:15.612 --> 00:54:19.462
Don't touch that coffee after
3 o'clock, like, you know.

00:54:19.582 --> 00:54:20.872
I just gotta get this right.

00:54:20.872 --> 00:54:22.062
Keep those screens out your eyes.

00:54:23.302 --> 00:54:26.662
It's like, I gotta, I gotta wake
it up to do tomorrow, you know.

00:54:26.662 --> 00:54:27.542
Man, it's so true.

00:54:27.777 --> 00:54:33.097
So, how can you live your best
life in the spirit of this poem?

00:54:33.607 --> 00:54:35.047
That's what I've let go of, Sam.

00:54:35.057 --> 00:54:35.347
Yeah.

00:54:35.407 --> 00:54:36.487
I want to talk about this.

00:54:36.517 --> 00:54:37.057
Yeah, go on.

00:54:37.217 --> 00:54:38.287
Hedonism.

00:54:38.327 --> 00:54:38.617
Yeah.

00:54:38.871 --> 00:54:41.601
I've been thinking, I've been trying
to get this thought, it's been coming

00:54:41.601 --> 00:54:44.671
to me in the middle of the night and
I didn't know who to talk to about

00:54:44.671 --> 00:54:46.711
it, but I can talk to you about it.

00:54:46.711 --> 00:54:47.091
Bring it here.

00:54:47.377 --> 00:54:49.507
Hedonism.

00:54:49.507 --> 00:54:50.667
There's nothing wrong with it.

00:54:51.177 --> 00:54:52.817
It's one way of life.

00:54:53.297 --> 00:54:54.747
It's a way of life.

00:54:54.987 --> 00:54:57.227
And for a lot of people,
it works for them.

00:54:57.717 --> 00:54:58.647
And that's fine.

00:54:58.647 --> 00:54:59.907
And I don't have a problem with it.

00:54:59.907 --> 00:55:01.237
But we're all hedonists to some degree.

00:55:01.617 --> 00:55:06.037
But that's what I've let go of
to surrender in my older age

00:55:06.057 --> 00:55:07.727
is I've let go of hedonism.

00:55:08.407 --> 00:55:09.597
Oh, as a pursuit.

00:55:09.637 --> 00:55:13.037
But I don't want to be seen as
someone who's anti hedonism.

00:55:14.467 --> 00:55:15.677
That's right, the usual solution.

00:55:15.687 --> 00:55:16.787
What's the ancient Greeks?

00:55:16.787 --> 00:55:17.487
Who were the ones?

00:55:17.517 --> 00:55:18.367
The Epicureans?

00:55:18.377 --> 00:55:21.277
Well, there was the Epicureans,
the Stoics, and the Hedonists.

00:55:21.347 --> 00:55:24.207
And the Hedonists were
the Epicureans, right?

00:55:24.207 --> 00:55:24.887
It's all related.

00:55:24.977 --> 00:55:25.677
I can't remember.

00:55:25.677 --> 00:55:26.787
No, there was someone else.

00:55:26.827 --> 00:55:30.607
Well, the Hedonists, the Epicureans,
and the No, he just made up.

00:55:30.617 --> 00:55:32.707
There was no ancient Greeks
called the Hedonists.

00:55:32.861 --> 00:55:35.495
no, but it was a, no, but it was a
term to, now you're right, you might

00:55:35.495 --> 00:55:40.012
be right, but I actually listened to
a bunch of EPs about this recently.

00:55:40.012 --> 00:55:41.014
We need the third person here
who looks stuff up for us.

00:55:41.014 --> 00:55:41.098
Okay.

00:55:41.098 --> 00:55:41.581
Anyway, it doesn't matter.

00:55:41.581 --> 00:55:43.491
Hedonism's been around a long time.

00:55:43.531 --> 00:55:43.981
Yes.

00:55:44.681 --> 00:55:48.691
Like, it is a way of life, it was,
it was, for all the socialism of

00:55:48.691 --> 00:55:51.421
my upbringing, what I was really
brought up with was hedonism.

00:55:51.571 --> 00:55:56.551
Okay, well so the hedonic principle, I
remembered this now, so if you, so you've

00:55:56.551 --> 00:56:00.141
heard of hedonic resets and all that,
so just to explain, so hedonism is the

00:56:00.141 --> 00:56:05.961
pursuit of pleasure, and I've had really
good and bad role models in this, right?

00:56:06.221 --> 00:56:10.461
And uh, so for me at different
times it was drugs, video games,

00:56:10.551 --> 00:56:15.495
uh, you know, coffee, Sex and music
and you know, stuff like that.

00:56:15.495 --> 00:56:15.835
Right.

00:56:15.941 --> 00:56:19.611
but I've had really great
models who were able to show me.

00:56:20.256 --> 00:56:24.556
No, no, it's just as hedonistic
to have a great night's sleep and

00:56:24.556 --> 00:56:28.276
get up early and go for a walk or
a run or dive into a cold ocean.

00:56:28.286 --> 00:56:29.146
That's hedonic.

00:56:29.586 --> 00:56:33.881
It's going to give you a tremendous
pleasure, way more profound, than boozing

00:56:33.881 --> 00:56:40.111
on, and meditation could even be deeply
pleasurable, and reading a book quietly

00:56:40.111 --> 00:56:41.591
in a corner can be a remarkable pleasure.

00:56:41.591 --> 00:56:43.051
But it's not what I'm talking about.

00:56:43.151 --> 00:56:44.667
No, but You know what I'm talking about.

00:56:44.667 --> 00:56:45.871
This is what I'm steering you towards.

00:56:46.101 --> 00:56:49.061
That the Epicureans, I had the wrong
idea about them, and I listened to

00:56:49.061 --> 00:56:50.671
a pod about the, oh, the Cynics.

00:56:50.911 --> 00:56:52.141
No, it's not the Cynics.

00:56:52.141 --> 00:56:53.801
The Epicureans and the Stoics.

00:56:53.841 --> 00:56:54.631
Oh, it's someone else.

00:56:54.641 --> 00:56:58.681
So they're all basically discussing
they're all approaching the problem

00:56:58.691 --> 00:57:01.781
of existence, and the problem
of pain, and the problem of joy.

00:57:01.791 --> 00:57:04.001
They're all just approaching it from
different philosophical schools.

00:57:04.421 --> 00:57:06.681
And so the Epicureans are like,
you know, embrace life, embrace

00:57:06.681 --> 00:57:07.491
its pleasures, and so forth.

00:57:07.531 --> 00:57:09.531
Yeah, drink lots of wine.

00:57:09.721 --> 00:57:10.121
That's right.

00:57:10.326 --> 00:57:15.656
But then they go into serious inquiry
and they're like, what will actually

00:57:15.726 --> 00:57:18.086
maximize pleasure in the long run?

00:57:18.606 --> 00:57:21.326
And it's things, it's all the
stuff we're learning about now.

00:57:21.706 --> 00:57:24.316
Don't overload on
dopamine early in the day.

00:57:24.356 --> 00:57:25.866
Don't blow out your dopamine receptors.

00:57:25.886 --> 00:57:29.376
They weren't using that language,
but what they were saying was

00:57:29.986 --> 00:57:34.316
eat plain food sometimes and then
you'll enjoy the fancy stuff.

00:57:34.566 --> 00:57:35.726
Lay off on the drink.

00:57:36.156 --> 00:57:37.406
Have a good night's sleep.

00:57:38.656 --> 00:57:40.106
Do the hard work now.

00:57:40.461 --> 00:57:43.561
Instead of feeling guilty about avoiding
it, that's actually going to give

00:57:43.561 --> 00:57:44.931
you more pleasure in the long run.

00:57:45.201 --> 00:57:48.461
And so there's a whole school of
philosophy that says maximizing pleasure

00:57:48.461 --> 00:57:50.611
in life is actually no bad thing.

00:57:50.621 --> 00:57:54.011
It can lead to better moral
decisions, not worse ones.

00:57:54.021 --> 00:57:55.221
You're the same age as me.

00:57:55.231 --> 00:57:59.541
Do you feel the need to have a couple
of hedonistic blowouts a year still?

00:58:00.231 --> 00:58:02.781
You don't mind getting on the
beer and the cigs and Oh, it's

00:58:02.781 --> 00:58:04.241
an, yeah, no, no, it does happen.

00:58:04.666 --> 00:58:06.356
But see it never happens for me.

00:58:06.376 --> 00:58:09.046
Yeah, like that that just never happens.

00:58:09.276 --> 00:58:13.396
No, not at all But so right and I'm
still but you love a walk on the

00:58:13.396 --> 00:58:18.332
beach, you know, I would say that's
yeah But see that's it's not hedonism.

00:58:18.452 --> 00:58:21.337
That's just like healthy Agreed.

00:58:21.527 --> 00:58:22.247
Yeah.

00:58:22.727 --> 00:58:25.617
But what I'm pointing you to is that
it's a, there's a bigger concept, which

00:58:25.617 --> 00:58:29.637
is the obvious pleasures give way to
the less obvious ones and that that's

00:58:29.637 --> 00:58:31.607
actually, that's in the philosophy itself.

00:58:31.607 --> 00:58:32.147
I like that.

00:58:32.487 --> 00:58:32.807
All right.

00:58:32.807 --> 00:58:34.987
I think that's helped me with the
thing that keeps coming to me.

00:58:34.987 --> 00:58:35.327
All right.

00:58:35.377 --> 00:58:36.987
What's the thing that you've
woken up thinking about?

00:58:37.257 --> 00:58:37.467
I'm done.

00:58:37.467 --> 00:58:38.557
I'm done with hedonism.

00:58:38.597 --> 00:58:43.069
I want to say something about
hedonism, which is, it's a way of life.

00:58:43.209 --> 00:58:44.034
Not the only one.

00:58:44.394 --> 00:58:46.004
It's not the only one.

00:58:46.014 --> 00:58:46.274
Yeah.

00:58:46.334 --> 00:58:49.454
Now I'm gonna stop being
Epicurean if that is right.

00:58:49.584 --> 00:58:49.804
Yeah.

00:58:49.804 --> 00:58:51.304
I'm gonna start being a Stoic.

00:58:51.374 --> 00:58:54.754
Yeah, or a cynic and you know,
Diogenes, living in a battle.

00:58:54.754 --> 00:58:56.264
And that's what I'm gonna do.

00:58:56.294 --> 00:59:00.596
Yeah, but if everyone, everyone
else in the world wants to keep

00:59:00.596 --> 00:59:03.231
doing hedonism That's okay, too.

00:59:03.271 --> 00:59:06.101
But what I've actually noticed is
Yeah, leave the normies alone, Joe.

00:59:06.171 --> 00:59:09.391
In the nine years since I completely
stopped drinking, what I've

00:59:09.391 --> 00:59:13.271
noticed is people my age massively
moderating Most of them are.

00:59:13.291 --> 00:59:14.271
their booze and drugs.

00:59:14.311 --> 00:59:16.921
Yeah, and the ones that aren't
Like, occasionally going to music

00:59:16.921 --> 00:59:18.301
festivals and taking all the drugs.

00:59:18.301 --> 00:59:18.491
Yeah.

00:59:18.616 --> 00:59:20.436
and drinking in moderation.

00:59:20.436 --> 00:59:23.526
The biggest pissheads I know have
really laid off for the most part.

00:59:23.646 --> 00:59:24.126
Yeah.

00:59:24.166 --> 00:59:27.676
So I don't know if I would have just
moderated without being so extreme,

00:59:27.676 --> 00:59:30.628
but once I started on the spiritual
journey, and the price of entry

00:59:30.628 --> 00:59:33.018
was not drinking, then I wanted
to keep going on the spiritual.

00:59:33.028 --> 00:59:34.558
So without the spiritual journey.

00:59:34.958 --> 00:59:38.928
I might just be a moderate drinker now,
but it would completely undermine my sense

00:59:38.928 --> 00:59:40.748
of self at this point to not be sober.

00:59:41.048 --> 00:59:41.548
Oh, no, no.

00:59:41.548 --> 00:59:42.198
I agree with you completely.

00:59:42.198 --> 00:59:43.738
So, it's fascinating, isn't it?

00:59:43.738 --> 00:59:46.498
Like, I think there's far more to
be gained by just going all in.

00:59:47.028 --> 00:59:47.518
Yeah.

00:59:47.588 --> 00:59:47.798
Yeah.

00:59:47.798 --> 00:59:49.028
It's given me a way of life.

00:59:49.068 --> 00:59:49.318
Yeah.

00:59:49.428 --> 00:59:52.828
And honestly, like, I've had some friends
my age or a little bit younger who've been

00:59:52.828 --> 00:59:57.058
to Meredith or Golden Plains recently and
then gone to work on Monday or Tuesday.

00:59:57.153 --> 00:59:57.673
No judgment.

00:59:57.673 --> 01:00:01.688
I had to, I bit my tongue because
what's the point in offering my,

01:00:02.028 --> 01:00:04.738
I, I did feel a level of judgment,
but then I was like, well, if you

01:00:04.738 --> 01:00:06.028
can make it work, that's fine.

01:00:06.338 --> 01:00:08.745
But I just am not interested.

01:00:09.045 --> 01:00:09.415
Yeah.

01:00:09.445 --> 01:00:10.125
I'm just not interested.

01:00:10.125 --> 01:00:10.895
I don't want to.

01:00:11.101 --> 01:00:11.341
All right.

01:00:11.351 --> 01:00:12.771
Last one, Sam, and then we'll wrap it up.

01:00:12.811 --> 01:00:13.581
It astonished me.

01:00:14.181 --> 01:00:19.251
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken
dreams, it is still a beautiful world.

01:00:19.731 --> 01:00:20.621
Be cheerful.

01:00:20.651 --> 01:00:21.651
Strive to be happy.

01:00:22.201 --> 01:00:22.541
Yep.

01:00:22.631 --> 01:00:24.471
See, I have no problem agreeing with that.

01:00:24.941 --> 01:00:28.371
And maybe that's the other part of, of
the universe is unfolding as it should.

01:00:28.771 --> 01:00:31.631
Whether it is or it isn't, it
is incredibly beautiful world.

01:00:33.149 --> 01:00:36.219
with the struggles of my life
now being the working poor.

01:00:36.329 --> 01:00:40.479
Yeah I'm a rich man when I'm hanging
out with my daughters like I'm the

01:00:40.479 --> 01:00:44.829
richest man on earth So that's the
beautiful world for me is right there

01:00:44.829 --> 01:00:47.769
when I'm having a swim like it was the
last few days Michelle de Montaigne

01:00:47.779 --> 01:00:48.939
would be nodding along to all of this.

01:00:48.999 --> 01:00:49.439
Who's that?

01:00:49.489 --> 01:00:50.219
Oh de Montaigne.

01:00:50.219 --> 01:00:52.779
You know the French guy with all
these essays Yeah, the essay guy.

01:00:52.789 --> 01:00:53.669
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:53.899 --> 01:00:54.629
He'd be into all this.

01:00:54.629 --> 01:00:57.519
Yeah, so Uh, it is
still a beautiful world.

01:00:57.519 --> 01:00:58.509
Strive to be happy.

01:00:58.639 --> 01:00:59.949
People don't say that enough.

01:01:00.309 --> 01:01:00.619
No.

01:01:00.669 --> 01:01:03.259
You know, people just grind
out their lives and Do you

01:01:03.259 --> 01:01:03.819
know who you hear it from?

01:01:03.819 --> 01:01:07.329
Try and survive and try and get ahead a
little bit financially and Do you know

01:01:07.329 --> 01:01:08.879
who you, you know who you hear this from?

01:01:09.474 --> 01:01:13.634
People who've done a lot of therapy,
people who've had addictions, people

01:01:13.634 --> 01:01:16.994
who've had horrible experiences
in their childhood, people who've

01:01:16.994 --> 01:01:19.264
survived, crimes and abuse against them.

01:01:19.484 --> 01:01:22.944
These are the people you'll hear
from saying, strive to be happy.

01:01:23.164 --> 01:01:26.314
And sometimes it comes from these
kind of twisted teeth, like, I'm

01:01:26.314 --> 01:01:27.934
not going to let my abuser win.

01:01:27.964 --> 01:01:28.914
I'm going to be happy.

01:01:28.914 --> 01:01:30.214
And I'm like, good for you.

01:01:30.364 --> 01:01:34.324
And if that's going to get you to
that place sooner, then do that.

01:01:34.448 --> 01:01:38.508
And I've also heard from people who've
transitioned from the term uh, victim

01:01:38.508 --> 01:01:41.148
to the term survivor, and then there's
others who transition from that

01:01:41.148 --> 01:01:44.678
term to something else of like, it
doesn't even define me at all anymore.

01:01:44.988 --> 01:01:45.728
And guess what?

01:01:45.748 --> 01:01:46.938
All of those people are right.

01:01:47.048 --> 01:01:50.280
And at every stage along the journey,
all the people that, you know,

01:01:50.290 --> 01:01:54.271
identified as a party animal and then
identified as sober, it's, Take your

01:01:54.281 --> 01:01:56.141
happiness seriously for God's sake.

01:01:56.171 --> 01:01:57.891
I believe this very importantly.

01:01:58.361 --> 01:02:02.551
The big thing that that the real
realization that had to happen, not

01:02:02.551 --> 01:02:05.811
just the guy out looking at the guy
outside the TAB and going that's me,

01:02:05.975 --> 01:02:12.615
the rock bottom thing, there's the
other bit which is I want to get better.

01:02:12.885 --> 01:02:14.955
I want to feel better.

01:02:15.005 --> 01:02:16.195
I deserve to feel better.

01:02:16.195 --> 01:02:20.575
It also says be cheerful and I would say
for all your faults Sam, which are many.

01:02:20.795 --> 01:02:21.465
Yeah, huge.

01:02:21.770 --> 01:02:22.880
You are very cheerful.

01:02:23.116 --> 01:02:25.626
You've always been cheerful in
the 25 years I've known you.

01:02:26.016 --> 01:02:27.426
I guess I'm always happy to
see you, so there you go.

01:02:28.376 --> 01:02:29.166
Shall we wrap it up?

01:02:29.536 --> 01:02:33.086
Well actually, can I make a pitch
for wheeling out one more of them?

01:02:33.146 --> 01:02:33.606
Okay.

01:02:33.616 --> 01:02:38.696
And I'll say just one more thing about
Strive to Be Happy, which is, okay, so I

01:02:38.696 --> 01:02:45.431
was in a, Panic, I'd, uh, gotten delayed
at work and, uh, you know, my wife and son

01:02:45.431 --> 01:02:49.071
were having dinner at, we're having early
dinner at, you know, Vietnamese place.

01:02:50.121 --> 01:02:55.531
And I got there all in my panic, just left
work energy and, oh God, I'm so sorry I'm

01:02:55.531 --> 01:02:58.091
laid off, missed out, blah, blah, blah.

01:02:58.091 --> 01:03:00.372
And my son's just happily
eating spring rolls, I haven't

01:03:00.372 --> 01:03:01.592
actually missed that much yet.

01:03:01.735 --> 01:03:05.391
And, the mother of my child looks
at me and says, Oh, be joyful.

01:03:05.391 --> 01:03:10.541
And I was like, Oh my God, it
just stopped me in my tracks.

01:03:10.541 --> 01:03:13.751
And like, I have thought
about that so many times.

01:03:13.781 --> 01:03:16.521
I was like, it's a choice
I can make right now.

01:03:16.851 --> 01:03:19.811
And it's like, I'm not going
to instantly get there, but

01:03:19.821 --> 01:03:21.091
you've got to make the start.

01:03:21.561 --> 01:03:23.221
And it's like, Oh, hang on.

01:03:23.911 --> 01:03:27.301
I used, I used to get people down a
lot, Joe, and I feel a lot of, I feel

01:03:27.301 --> 01:03:30.811
a lot of regret about that, of being
the party pooper and like, oh look, if

01:03:30.811 --> 01:03:34.741
people didn't have a, a grain of salt
with the shit that I was saying yeah.

01:03:35.341 --> 01:03:38.491
A few years ago, like no one
would want to hang out with me.

01:03:38.491 --> 01:03:38.761
Oh no.

01:03:38.761 --> 01:03:39.841
You could be a, for sure.

01:03:39.841 --> 01:03:40.741
A real catastrophes.

01:03:40.741 --> 01:03:42.001
A real, yeah, yeah.

01:03:42.031 --> 01:03:43.051
Cynic for sure.

01:03:43.051 --> 01:03:49.454
So how I was with still a red bowl of red
wine next to me was just morose, morose.

01:03:49.742 --> 01:03:50.302
Michael, stop.

01:03:50.302 --> 01:03:51.772
Everybody hates a sad professor.

01:03:52.422 --> 01:03:56.342
And like, it's, it's not like
the world's getting better.

01:03:56.342 --> 01:04:00.711
It's getting worse, of course, but like,
I, I just don't view it in the same way

01:04:00.711 --> 01:04:02.671
anymore without the alcohol in my system.

01:04:02.671 --> 01:04:06.001
I'm just kind of like, I've got
to make the best of what I can.

01:04:06.031 --> 01:04:06.711
A hundred percent.

01:04:06.873 --> 01:04:07.613
I've got a duty.

01:04:08.198 --> 01:04:08.878
As I see it.

01:04:09.228 --> 01:04:12.108
You know, before I came here
today, I went to a mechanic and

01:04:12.108 --> 01:04:15.218
it cost me, I don't know, twice as
much as what I thought it would.

01:04:15.278 --> 01:04:15.578
Yeah.

01:04:15.808 --> 01:04:17.348
And it cleaned out my savings.

01:04:17.588 --> 01:04:18.458
It's a huge bummer.

01:04:18.628 --> 01:04:25.240
And yeah, I, I can't say I was cheerful in
that moment, but it didn't take much, man.

01:04:25.490 --> 01:04:27.740
It only took a text from you saying, yeah.

01:04:28.160 --> 01:04:29.210
Do you want to come and record?

01:04:29.240 --> 01:04:31.020
And I was like, I'm going
to get myself together.

01:04:31.140 --> 01:04:31.770
Glad I could help.

01:04:31.870 --> 01:04:34.590
And, and now I'll probably feel
great for the rest of the day because

01:04:34.600 --> 01:04:35.610
I've had a good chat with you.

01:04:35.610 --> 01:04:37.340
So, I can be cheerful.

01:04:37.340 --> 01:04:38.770
I can strive to be happy.

01:04:38.896 --> 01:04:40.834
and, It is a beautiful world.

01:04:41.164 --> 01:04:41.804
I'll leave it with that.

01:04:41.854 --> 01:04:42.474
Oh, 100%.

01:04:42.604 --> 01:04:46.834
Like, when I think about the fact
that I'm not being bombed or shot at,

01:04:46.834 --> 01:04:50.374
I'm not about to get evicted, who the
fuck am I to be a miserable prick?

01:04:50.474 --> 01:04:52.834
Yeah, but that logic
only goes so far, Sam.

01:04:52.904 --> 01:04:56.504
Well, no, well, no, that's You could be
sitting in a mansion shooting up heroin

01:04:56.504 --> 01:05:01.244
right now and kinda, like Well, again,
that person Everyone has options and needs

01:05:01.244 --> 01:05:02.634
to start thinking about what they are.

01:05:02.634 --> 01:05:05.374
And I'm not, I'm not saying we
all bootstrap ourselves as a

01:05:05.384 --> 01:05:09.404
singular effort, but the whole
point of strive to be cheerful or

01:05:09.424 --> 01:05:11.704
be cheerful, strive to be happy.

01:05:12.014 --> 01:05:16.254
I think that's what really pushed me over
the line with that one was seeing it as

01:05:16.254 --> 01:05:18.394
a duty to others as well as the self.

01:05:18.524 --> 01:05:21.914
Well, the other alternative is
what's that line about men living

01:05:21.914 --> 01:05:23.434
lives of quiet desperation?

01:05:23.844 --> 01:05:25.144
The English in general.

01:05:25.174 --> 01:05:25.734
Yeah.

01:05:25.734 --> 01:05:25.774
Yeah.

01:05:25.774 --> 01:05:26.064
So.

01:05:26.849 --> 01:05:28.829
I don't want to live a
life of quiet desperation.

01:05:28.829 --> 01:05:30.479
I'll live in a land of plenty.

01:05:30.531 --> 01:05:33.011
after this I'll drive to the other
side of town and I'll have a swim

01:05:33.011 --> 01:05:34.351
at the beach and that's free.

01:05:34.451 --> 01:05:34.741
Totally.

01:05:34.741 --> 01:05:38.011
And the thing that I would have
struggled with, with that was, oh, but

01:05:38.011 --> 01:05:39.151
there's still injustice in the world.

01:05:39.151 --> 01:05:40.891
And it's like, well, you're going
to wait till all of that's gone?

01:05:41.371 --> 01:05:41.961
To be happy.

01:05:42.541 --> 01:05:44.721
That's how I was when I was morose.

01:05:44.751 --> 01:05:46.181
I was like, but what about that?

01:05:46.201 --> 01:05:47.331
Whatever it was at the time.

01:05:47.371 --> 01:05:49.891
What about, or my girlfriend
Hannah, she would do this one.

01:05:50.061 --> 01:05:53.531
She'd be like, I'd be like
doing bummer, bummer Sam.

01:05:53.551 --> 01:05:54.381
And she'd be like.

01:05:55.056 --> 01:05:56.406
Here's my little parade.

01:05:56.841 --> 01:06:00.791
I was having a little parade, and this
is the rain, and it's coming from you,

01:06:01.401 --> 01:06:07.451
and I'm like, aw, aw, Jesus, sorry
dude, pissing on your parade, that's no

01:06:07.451 --> 01:06:09.261
good, let people have their parade, man.

01:06:09.281 --> 01:06:10.541
Nah, you're a cheerful guy.

01:06:10.561 --> 01:06:13.861
Oh, well, I think, well, I've,
I've strived to be happy, Joe,

01:06:13.861 --> 01:06:15.061
I've worked at it, dammit.

01:06:15.351 --> 01:06:17.661
So, well, and then, speaking of
which, that brings me to this other

01:06:17.661 --> 01:06:19.291
one, which, there are so many ones.

01:06:23.766 --> 01:06:27.066
Love is as perennial as the grass,
all of that, that's all great stuff.

01:06:27.266 --> 01:06:29.616
You are a child of the universe, no
less than the trees and the stars.

01:06:30.046 --> 01:06:32.046
That's a really wholesome
thought and I like it.

01:06:32.156 --> 01:06:35.046
Seeing ourselves as part of
the ecosystem, not above it.

01:06:36.126 --> 01:06:39.779
But that bit about for the world is full
of trickery and that's the part I would

01:06:39.779 --> 01:06:41.389
concentrate on for a long time, right?

01:06:41.649 --> 01:06:44.719
But let this not blind you
to what virtue there is.

01:06:44.959 --> 01:06:47.439
Many persons strive for high ideals.

01:06:47.489 --> 01:06:48.019
It's true.

01:06:48.049 --> 01:06:48.749
I can't argue.

01:06:48.819 --> 01:06:50.119
Oh, I see them all the time.

01:06:50.139 --> 01:06:50.459
Yeah.

01:06:50.549 --> 01:06:52.989
And everywhere, life is full of heroism.

01:06:53.009 --> 01:06:54.169
It is so true.

01:06:54.389 --> 01:06:57.239
Working in mental health, as opposed
to the film industry, well, I gotta

01:06:57.239 --> 01:06:58.739
say, there's almost zero heroism.

01:06:58.979 --> 01:06:59.209
Yeah.

01:06:59.239 --> 01:07:01.969
But in mental health, all these
people are kind of heroic.

01:07:02.009 --> 01:07:04.289
The heroic thing sometimes
is to get the shower done.

01:07:04.319 --> 01:07:08.375
They are getting paid, but they
actually care, and they're I

01:07:08.375 --> 01:07:11.472
see Heroism a lot in that field.

01:07:12.062 --> 01:07:15.342
Some of my, some of my kids who were up
against it to even just get to school.

01:07:15.902 --> 01:07:16.902
Like, that's heroism.

01:07:17.062 --> 01:07:18.532
Like, then holding their head up.

01:07:18.582 --> 01:07:19.652
I agree with that, man.

01:07:19.682 --> 01:07:25.492
And that's why I'm ironically much
less cynical at 44 than I was at 29.

01:07:25.572 --> 01:07:26.502
Much less cynical.

01:07:26.628 --> 01:07:29.198
It's true, the young man has
this sort of shallow cynicism.

01:07:29.248 --> 01:07:29.968
Yeah, yeah.

01:07:30.008 --> 01:07:33.268
It's, it's, there's no
texture or nuance to it.

01:07:33.568 --> 01:07:35.838
It's this But I'd be cynical
not just about the world, but

01:07:35.838 --> 01:07:37.218
about everything I did too.

01:07:37.278 --> 01:07:37.648
Of course.

01:07:37.991 --> 01:07:41.581
Yes, all of my efforts are worthless
and dull and pointless, like, God.

01:07:41.701 --> 01:07:46.057
Like, I remember we had, had this really
upbeat friend and there was a film, 24

01:07:46.057 --> 01:07:49.687
hour film festival competition coming
up, you had to make a film in a weekend.

01:07:49.747 --> 01:07:50.387
Oh, I remember those.

01:07:50.467 --> 01:07:53.862
And I was planning to stay home,
I remember it, and like, Drink

01:07:53.872 --> 01:07:55.762
whiskey and take painkillers.

01:07:55.822 --> 01:07:56.772
Mmm, great plan.

01:07:56.792 --> 01:07:59.312
But I was in my 20s so I
thought that was just cool.

01:07:59.602 --> 01:08:00.432
Unproblematic.

01:08:00.562 --> 01:08:02.172
Yeah, I didn't think it was problematic.

01:08:03.132 --> 01:08:05.467
And she convinced me to
go and do this thing.

01:08:05.467 --> 01:08:10.167
Anyway, we made this film and I wrote
the whole thing and, and we won the

01:08:10.187 --> 01:08:14.161
competition and next thing I'm up on the
stage getting an award and, and all I

01:08:14.161 --> 01:08:19.091
needed was one person who wasn't cynical
in my life and I only had probably one.

01:08:19.296 --> 01:08:24.166
Because you've driven out most of the
casual cheerful people, yeah, and it did

01:08:24.166 --> 01:08:29.191
this amazing thing that so if I want to, I
can access stuff that turns into something

01:08:29.191 --> 01:08:34.231
in the world, or I can just stay in my
self pity and drink myself to oblivion.

01:08:34.651 --> 01:08:35.741
I know that exact choice.

01:08:35.791 --> 01:08:36.741
We have those choices.

01:08:37.251 --> 01:08:40.331
I'm not saying it's an easy one
to make, in fact, it's exquisitely

01:08:40.411 --> 01:08:42.201
and painfully difficult to make.

01:08:42.301 --> 01:08:43.721
There's a lot of pleasure in, yeah.

01:08:43.861 --> 01:08:45.131
But when you get it right, it's amazing.

01:08:45.251 --> 01:08:48.511
I've had minor moments of, you know,
rising above my own bullshit, which

01:08:48.511 --> 01:08:50.631
felt, you know, like heroism at the time.

01:08:50.750 --> 01:08:52.880
and then the more you do it,
the more ordinary it becomes.

01:08:53.640 --> 01:08:53.890
Yeah.

01:08:53.890 --> 01:08:58.580
So I'm incredibly grateful to people who
hauled me out of my shit in a similar way.

01:08:58.950 --> 01:09:04.538
And, hey, I guess if we can manage To just
do a little bit of that for someone else.

01:09:04.538 --> 01:09:05.248
Yeah, that's cool.

01:09:05.428 --> 01:09:06.738
That's something to aim for.

01:09:06.778 --> 01:09:07.618
I like that, Sam.

01:09:07.658 --> 01:09:08.928
Maybe we can do it for each other.

01:09:09.568 --> 01:09:12.038
Well, I'm glad I got in
touch to say there's a, you

01:09:12.038 --> 01:09:13.778
know, a window has opened up.

01:09:13.838 --> 01:09:14.318
Yeah, yeah.

01:09:14.378 --> 01:09:15.658
Let's hope the recording worked.

01:09:15.818 --> 01:09:16.688
Ha ha ha.

01:09:17.178 --> 01:09:18.508
Anyway, we're going to save the thing?

01:09:18.828 --> 01:09:19.318
Yes.

01:09:19.348 --> 01:09:22.398
That's been another one
of the 10, 000 things.

01:09:22.888 --> 01:09:23.428
See you, mate.

01:09:23.478 --> 01:09:24.388
See you, mate.