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Welcome to Classroom 5.0, the podcast where we explore the future of work, learning and
leadership.

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I'm your host, Marianne Power, clinical psychologist, speaker and consultant on meaningful
work life design and neurodiversity.

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Here's a question for you.

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Did you know that over 53 % of professionals in fields like tech identify as
neurodivergent?

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We've all heard about the challenges, but what about the untold stories of success?

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In Neuropeak, season five of the podcast, we're flipping the script.

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I'm sitting down with visionary leaders to reveal the strategies and strengths that power
peak performance in neurodivergent professionals.

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If you're ready to discover how our community thrives beyond a diagnosis, you're in the
right place.

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Let's dive on in to today's episode.

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Joel Connolly, welcome.

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Welcome, welcome to the NeuroPic series.

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It's so good to have you here.

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I'm so excited.

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Thanks so much for having me.

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Excited and stoked and full of energy and curiosity.

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Yes, well, me too.

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What our listeners don't know is that you and I were just riffing before we got

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on camera officially about all things to do with creativity, but how that shows up in
teams and personality styles.

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And I'm really thrilled to hear that you're bringing some of that energy into today's
conversation because for our listeners tuning in, Joel is an incredible off the charts

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creative.

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And I know you'll blush with me saying that, but it's true.

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So you don't need to blush.

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And actually I'm going to throw the microphone straight over to you, Joel, because I know
a bit about your professional background, but I'm keen to hear it from your words.

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And in particular, I love

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you put your professional bio on the Blackbird website and I actually captured it in our
show notes.

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Would you mind, can you read that out for us?

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Because it's beautiful.

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hit.

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I forgot that I had written this, so I appreciate you digging it up for me.

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Okay.

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So I'm creative director and I run our brand comms team with Melia.

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I work on making Blackbird into a beautiful place full of creativity and rich in meaning.

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I built our brand, helped to shape our culture and tried hard to make Australia's startup
ecosystem dynamic and inspiring.

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Also the head of the Blackbird Foundation is to unleash creativity in young people.

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It is beautiful.

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I love it.

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What was it like reading those words again when you say you haven't read them for a while?

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I think, you know, I always struggle to tell people what I do or to explain it when they
ask.

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So I'm actually really pleasantly surprised that I thought it's a wrong

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So I forgot my name, I think it captures it quite well.

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It at least captures the intention.

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I think how you go about doing your work changes all the time, as you learn, as you grow.

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But I think that's done a really good job of capturing the intention.

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Also the journey, you've done a few different roles of Blackburn that's changed over time.

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that captures the startup ecosystem part, which I've worked on, the foundation, which is
kind of our purpose and social mission.

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And yeah, I'm proud of myself.

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for bringing that back.

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You should be proud of yourself.

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For me, it's just such a beautiful piece of it.

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We're entering.

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It's funny, I always say that we're entering into this authentic era of leadership.

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And yet I think authenticity has always been on the table as a human centered leadership
dynamic, if you like, that we aspire to.

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And yet for me, that piece of writing, there's so many aspects of it that I just want to
celebrate.

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That meaning piece.

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you know, bringing your whole self to the projects and the people that you're working
with.

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I'm so curious, because you've been with Blackbird for a long time now, at the earliest
days or, you know, pretty close to them.

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How have you seen your mission collectively and you individually change and grow over that
time?

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man, I was talking to some colleagues about this just yesterday, A friend of mine,
colleague Claire, is just leaving Blackbird.

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We're talking about she and another person I work with, we were discussing, you know, what
is it you think, what's been the best part about working at Blackbird and all of the

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screens, that it's just the amount of change we've all had to go through personally in
order to, I don't want to say rise to the occasion, but it's in order to meet the

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opportunity that I think we all feel that we've had working at Blackbird.

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Yeah, I've changed a lot since I got here.

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And I think it's probably one of the things that I like the most is, you know, just for
giving me the space in a platform to be able to explore, you know, who I am as a person,

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what the great things that I have to offer might be, and how to actually develop those
things into something that's tangible and that works and that actually has impact.

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So I've changed a lot.

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started off

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I came to Blackbird as an artist manager.

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was a band manager in the music industry for close to a decade.

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I started that company with my friend Greg out of university.

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I had a couple of jobs before that out of university, but just sort of things.

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So I really feel like my career and life sort of started when I started managing the
bands.

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And I came to Blackbird with this really rough edge and I got some...

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I should have some feedback, which is like haunted me.

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Is that right?

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And you remember it.

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I'll tell you what it was.

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And it's like, you'll see why.

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I just unsolicited asked for some feedback and she said, this is the NBA and you're still
playing pickup basketball.

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Like, I don't think that's a great place to fit, but it like stuck with me at the time.

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I hated it because I was like, I just saw a great disagree with it.

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But I kind of know what he meant.

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Coming out of the arts, there is a particularly running business where you don't have
people to learn from.

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There's a standard for learning, for growth is set by yourself.

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But if you don't know what you don't know, you don't know what potential for yourself
could be.

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You don't know what real learning looks like.

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You don't know any of those things.

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So how can you set a culture for learning and growth if you don't know?

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And so I came in like just very rough around the edges, undisciplined.

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I don't think I knew myself very well at all.

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An example would be the best example is that I never thought of myself as pre-old until a
few years into my work at Blackbird.

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No one had ever told me that I was, I never thought of myself.

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And now that's my whole identity.

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Like, that's how I think of myself, that's how other people describe me.

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But up until my thirties, like I'd never

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I'd never thought that really.

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I didn't know that.

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Yeah, so that's like to answer your question, like it's been a huge growth and a huge
journey now.

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And it's one of the things that I'm most thankful for about having worked at Blackwood.

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Yeah, wow, that is so interesting.

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I'm really curious about creativity and people's identity with the creative process.

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And to hear even coming out of university, because you originally studied communications,
is that right?

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And then went into into band management.

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I working with musicians, my, you know, my leap there was just that, of course, you would
have always identified as a creative.

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So to hear that that wasn't the case for you, what was the what was the turning point?

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Do you think was it feedback from others or emotion in projects or something personal?

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So like I was always into the arts and creativity, even as a young person.

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I did I was in

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theater in high school, really liked music.

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I was a massive music fan.

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did a communications degree, but it was a theater and media major.

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So I did theater production at university.

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was this degree where you learn how to make shows.

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could be film, theater, TV, radio, festivals.

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That's what I ended up doing.

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But I also saw myself as like an organizer of creative people.

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And so I left, if you think about it,

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The stuff that did at was making shows, so organizing spaces within which people can be
creative and people can celebrate.

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So that was, I organized music, a couple of music festivals at university.

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was largely, those are the big projects I did.

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And then when I finished, I did some events management work at the beginning.

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And then I was an artist manager, so helping creative people to be creative or

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removing some of the barriers that might be stopping them from going back.

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I went into black, my first job was head of community.

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And so that too is basically organizing around creative people.

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think the founders in startups is creative people, the same as I am.

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And so like, kind of thread is pretty obvious.

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Like when you see that, I always worked and thought of myself as someone who enables,
believed in creative people and enables them to be creative.

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And then I think just by the time I got to Blackbird, I had done my 10,000 hours in
culture.

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I'd listened to heaps of music.

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I'd watched all the films.

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I'd spent all my life, working life, hanging around really artistic and creative people.

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And through that, I developed a strong sense of taste.

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And then when I get to Blackbird, I would say the thing that I had done more than most
people at least my 10,000 hours in culture.

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And so to the people that I work with in Blackbird who were, had backgrounds in law, in
business, in finance, investment, compared to those people, was, the hours that I'd done

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in culture and the taste that I developed kind of, it made them see me as creative because
I understood creativity in culture.

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And so, you know, it only took a few people at Blackbird starting to see me as creative
and to tell me that I was creative.

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and to value the ideas that I had and my expression of creativity.

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It only took them saying that a little bit and giving me a little bit of space to work on
it and to find discovery for myself.

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It only took that for me to then have this whole new part of my life now where I think of
myself as creative and everybody does and my major value and output, a black word,

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centered around creativity.

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So was like a couple of people just believing in me and telling me.

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Yeah, it's really that power of feedback.

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is awesome.

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There's something else that you said that I want to double click on.

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It's that idea of the 10,000 hours.

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And yet when we're diving into something that really captures our interest for you, it
sounds like it was always music and culture and creative sources.

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We don't necessarily appreciate the value of that until we come into a community where
that value is the key that unlocks something in Blackbird's case.

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man.

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I still spend a lot of time with my friends from the arts and the one thing that they
don't, they don't, this isn't true of everybody, but I'd say many of them don't really

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understand what their great value is, what they know better than anybody else, because
they're around other people who know this stuff.

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And it is their taste.

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Like taste sounds pithy when you say it like that, but taste is the accumulation of

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all of the things that you've like experienced in your life.

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It's where you grew up, the language you speak, communities you're a part of, the music
you've listened to, films you've watched.

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All of those things amalgamate and come together to form this idea of, form your own
individual taste.

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And because your experiences are entirely unique to you, your taste is entirely unique.

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Nobody has it.

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And people in the arts have spent their entire life accumulating taste and accumulating
things that

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make their taste in things rich and meaningful.

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Because they're surrounded by heaps of other people who've done that, don't necessarily
see that that's a valuable thing.

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But it is like, there's this great woman, Daisy Alto, who I can tell you her surname, she
runs a media company called Dirt.

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And she wrote a blog series called The Taste Economy.

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Go read it.

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it's basically it's like,

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It tries to argue or does argue that taste is actually this new, like it's probably one of
the most valuable things that a person can accumulate.

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And it's valuable because as I described, your taste is entirely unique to you.

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And it means if you can acquire really good taste and it's totally unique to you, no one
can ever copy you.

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the things that you make and what you can do with your taste are entirely unique and
special.

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And no one's got a chance of replicating exactly what you can do because you taste it your
own.

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I forgot what we were talking about.

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No, that's brilliant.

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it leads right into my next question.

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And it's interesting that you use the words taste because in my work with peak performance
with creatives, it would be more around what's your passion and where does that align with

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that curiosity, your interests and how does that translate into your unique purpose, which
becomes your own unique value proposition once you mix it then with storytelling.

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I love that idea of it being taste.

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I'm gonna dive into that.

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Thank you for that link to that series too, because I'll drop it in the show notes for
anybody who's interested.

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I wanna ask you then about your own creative process and the journey around that.

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I've been doing some reading and reviewing around insight and flow and some of the
processes involved in not just having those aha moments, but then how to take the creative

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juice, if you like, the taste and then execute that.

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into impact.

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And I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on personally how that applies to you and
then what you've seen of some of the high creatives that you've worked with who have been

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able to translate to something that others can enjoy as well.

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Great question.

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There's a few bits to there.

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So stop me from like, if I ramble a little bit, I love your rambles, Joel.

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You can ramble all day.

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Well, so firstly, process, like it's taken years to find my own process that works for me.

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lot of just, just trying new things.

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And I've arrived at a place now where I feel pretty confident in my process.

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So what that means is when I need to find a solution to a problem or come up with
something new or work out how to do something that I haven't done before, maybe something

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that I know that I know what I need to do to begin that journey.

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And the actual process itself is not that complicated.

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It's I just start, pretty simply with trying to work out.

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what the outcome is I'm trying to get to, what it is I'm hoping to achieve.

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And then I start looking for sources of inspiration.

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That's like the beginning of it.

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And those sources, like there's an intentionality to finding those sources where
specifically saying, trying to come up with a theme for Sunrise, which is a startup

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festival that I run for Blackbird.

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Trying to come up with a theme, an overarching theme for it.

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How do I get to that?

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And so I start thinking,

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looking broadly, different media, different things that I find on the internet.

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I'll like pay attention.

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I'll pull more attention when I'm reading my newsletters.

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I subscribe to a whole bunch of really good newsletters that source of inspiration for me.

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And I'll just, look for opportunities to go down rabbit holes.

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Rabbit holes like what really makes things click for me.

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And it can take a little bit.

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Like it doesn't, you have to like be patient.

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You can't like schedule.

212
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an hour here and an hour there to go and do it.

213
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I need blocks of time and I need to devote weeks to it.

214
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So I'll start coming up with say the creative thing for sunrise.

215
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I'll start months before I knew it and I'll just start with a mindset that it is, need to
figure out what this thing is going to be.

216
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And each week as I'm going about my life, I'm going to start, I will think about it.

217
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I'll be aware that I need to come up with that.

218
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And once you hit on like a rabbit hole and you start going down it, it all happens quite
quickly from there.

219
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That's just how you come up with the ideation.

220
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use a lot of mood boards.

221
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I put a lot of stuff up there and the connection between ideas and concepts and images and
words is quite fluid to me.

222
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And I'll put everything up and I'll start doing it.

223
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And then once I have like a big board of like ideas going on, I then start to try and
synthesize some of the ideas in language that will help me communicate those ideas.

224
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There's something can be quite obvious to me and really clear in my mind, but

225
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It's useless just in my mind.

226
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need to be able to communicate in ways that will be believable to people that they
understand.

227
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And because I'm a conceptual thinker, that often means that in a lot of the people I work
with are more, I guess, like, think kind of like high up, a lot of people I work with

228
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think on the ground first, and they might then go high up, but back to the ground.

229
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I have to be quite specific and give examples and kind of tell a story through it.

230
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That's just the ideation, but that's how you come up with the thing.

231
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But then from there, I think the second part of that question is really interesting.

232
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Particularly if you identify as a creative person, how do you actually have an impact?

233
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Because ideas are free.

234
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They're not to come up with them.

235
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They're not good just on a piece of paper.

236
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You to figure out how to make the thing drive all the way from start to finish to
completion.

237
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and to have the dedication and focus.

238
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And that's different to creativity to me.

239
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That's like that stage of the process is craft.

240
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That's where your skills, your techniques come into it.

241
00:18:02,803 --> 00:18:04,973
It's where your discipline and your focus.

242
00:18:04,973 --> 00:18:07,834
And I had trouble with that part for years.

243
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I had to build the skills that would enable me to actually bring things to life.

244
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so because my tendency is to get really stuck in the ideas and the conceptual because I
love that.

245
00:18:19,487 --> 00:18:21,418
It's where I get a lot of energy from.

246
00:18:22,210 --> 00:18:30,976
When I was younger, my tendency was to get, I would get caught up and lost in that and I
would start, you know, I'd spin my wheels and nothing would happen.

247
00:18:31,297 --> 00:18:40,044
and I found, you know, I had to actively work to build systems and processes that would
help me get past that.

248
00:18:40,044 --> 00:18:48,660
And that journey began with understanding myself and who I am and understanding my mind
and how I work and how my energy works and where I get my energy from.

249
00:18:49,902 --> 00:18:54,022
Plenty of things, I'm sure you will have much better solutions for people.

250
00:18:54,022 --> 00:18:56,842
Like actually, you know, being a professional in this area.

251
00:18:56,842 --> 00:19:00,442
for me, was much psychometric tests.

252
00:19:00,542 --> 00:19:08,582
I mentioned before, an engram has been quite helpful to me, but other things as well,
they're not perfect, but they kind of helped me to understand my own mind a little.

253
00:19:08,822 --> 00:19:17,922
And then once you understand yourself, you can start to build, you can start to build
things that help you deal with, I don't want to say shortcomings, but deal with the things

254
00:19:17,922 --> 00:19:19,182
that you find challenging.

255
00:19:19,182 --> 00:19:20,014
Yeah.

256
00:19:20,014 --> 00:19:25,814
For me, the worst thing in the world is to be a creative person that doesn't make stuff.

257
00:19:25,814 --> 00:19:29,434
That to me is just terrific.

258
00:19:29,434 --> 00:19:39,014
Painful for me to think that I could think up so many cool things that people like and
believe in, but never have any of them because I can't make shit.

259
00:19:39,294 --> 00:19:40,084
You know what I mean?

260
00:19:40,084 --> 00:19:41,484
I totally know what you mean.

261
00:19:41,484 --> 00:19:46,644
You know how you and I were saying before we jumped on this call and pressed record that I
wouldn't give you any psychobabble?

262
00:19:46,644 --> 00:19:48,046
I'm going to give you the psychobabble.

263
00:19:48,046 --> 00:19:51,166
Because what you have just described, I'm so excited.

264
00:19:51,166 --> 00:19:58,366
You've literally described in lived experience terms, what the research says about the
flow state, which is so cool.

265
00:19:58,366 --> 00:20:01,326
So I'm going link that to the episode below.

266
00:20:01,326 --> 00:20:10,306
But actually I just read an article on this and what is so interesting and to your point
around why I get so excited and bang on about understanding your brain is because you

267
00:20:10,306 --> 00:20:16,596
can't build a creative package for yourself for that delivery unless you understand the
biology that you're working with.

268
00:20:16,596 --> 00:20:17,858
It's like your operational map.

269
00:20:17,858 --> 00:20:18,499
right?

270
00:20:18,499 --> 00:20:27,227
So what I heard you say is that you've got to go from that big what we call divergent
thinking, which is the that experience of I can see and feel and hear everything in images

271
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and metaphors and all the patterns are making sense.

272
00:20:30,029 --> 00:20:37,556
And a lot of people in our ADHD community, our high creatives are highly ambitious people
out of the box thinkers will have that experience.

273
00:20:37,556 --> 00:20:40,859
The challenge is then how do we switch on the convergent thinking?

274
00:20:40,859 --> 00:20:43,874
And that's the drill and the discipline that I'm hearing you talk about.

275
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And that's where the craft comes in of executing on your goal.

276
00:20:47,076 --> 00:20:56,323
And it's all the stuff that naturally divergent thinkers or ADHD people, neurodivergent
people, if we take it to that, you know, labeling end, which we don't have to, it doesn't

277
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come necessarily naturally to our brains.

278
00:20:58,424 --> 00:21:05,249
And what's really cool about what I've found in the research is that's partly to do with
something in our brain called the imagination network.

279
00:21:05,249 --> 00:21:10,203
So in neurotypical people, the imagination network will need to be fired up.

280
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They need to do practices to fire it up.

281
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because it doesn't come naturally.

282
00:21:14,079 --> 00:21:16,061
The opposite is true for neurodivergent people.

283
00:21:16,061 --> 00:21:24,328
Their imagination network is always fired on, but it needs to be able to dial down to get
to a point where we can then switch on the discipline for the craft.

284
00:21:24,328 --> 00:21:31,213
And so when you know what your brain basis is, you know which one you got to switch a
lever on intentionally and which one's going to come more naturally.

285
00:21:31,213 --> 00:21:33,945
So I'm just like, yeah, I'm so excited.

286
00:21:33,945 --> 00:21:37,818
You've literally captured that process in real life for people.

287
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,181
I think I might be neurodivergent.

288
00:21:42,216 --> 00:21:45,589
I've never been formally diagnosed.

289
00:21:45,589 --> 00:21:53,175
way you just described it sounds very close to how I feel and experience this.

290
00:21:53,175 --> 00:21:58,209
And this is what's really exciting to me in that way, because I don't know, people are
going to disagree with me on this.

291
00:21:58,209 --> 00:22:01,962
think labels are helpful, and particularly when you're seeking support.

292
00:22:01,962 --> 00:22:06,722
Some of those medical labels that we've got around neurodivergence are extremely helpful.

293
00:22:06,722 --> 00:22:10,604
But actually, Scott Barry Kaufman wrote an article on this, and I'll drop it in the link.

294
00:22:10,604 --> 00:22:18,457
And he was arguing, maybe the medicalization of ADHD, if we take that away, you're talking
about super creative, innovative people here.

295
00:22:18,457 --> 00:22:20,908
yeah, it's really interesting.

296
00:22:20,908 --> 00:22:22,809
Anyway, go on, I interrupted you.

297
00:22:22,809 --> 00:22:32,204
No, no, I was just going to say, I think the labeling, like to me, I mean, taking away the
medical, to me, the labeling of things actually helps you to understand it.

298
00:22:32,204 --> 00:22:33,602
It just mentions like,

299
00:22:33,602 --> 00:22:42,249
I think that's been the great power of like the Psychometric Test and the Engram and
things like that is they hope to give a name and a description to something that you feel

300
00:22:42,630 --> 00:22:46,373
that you might not have known what to call before or that you might not have understood.

301
00:22:46,373 --> 00:22:55,830
So I think that, you know, I don't think it's a bad thing to give something a framework
from which you can understand.

302
00:22:55,830 --> 00:23:02,798
would never would have liked, without those tools, I never would have understood why it
is.

303
00:23:02,798 --> 00:23:07,638
I'm so, I've experienced difference relative to my colleagues.

304
00:23:07,798 --> 00:23:12,168
Many of my colleagues, so I particularly ones that work with at the moment, they're not
really tainted.

305
00:23:12,168 --> 00:23:15,598
They know how to move through a list very, very systematically.

306
00:23:15,618 --> 00:23:19,098
They get satisfaction from crossing tasks off lists.

307
00:23:19,098 --> 00:23:24,018
They're really great at like, at like driving things forward.

308
00:23:24,018 --> 00:23:28,548
I don't get a single bit of any satisfaction from crossing something off the list.

309
00:23:28,548 --> 00:23:30,218
It doesn't do anything for me.

310
00:23:30,218 --> 00:23:32,002
It doesn't do anything for me.

311
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:40,335
And I, but I never would have understood how there are types of people who can do this
stuff so well.

312
00:23:40,676 --> 00:23:43,078
And you know, I can't, why can't I?

313
00:23:43,078 --> 00:23:50,763
And I just never would have understood why that is without some of these tools that helped
me to kind of, you know, get my mind around it.

314
00:23:50,763 --> 00:23:57,727
But then I never would have also understood, you know, what some of the strengths that I
have are and how to use those really, really well.

315
00:23:58,408 --> 00:24:01,800
so yeah, I, yeah, everyone's different.

316
00:24:02,030 --> 00:24:04,370
And that's the thing, everyone's different.

317
00:24:04,370 --> 00:24:14,830
I think the ability, as you said, being in an ecosystem, and if you're not in an ecosystem
and you're a founder at home or working from home, you're right, that can be tough because

318
00:24:14,830 --> 00:24:22,550
you don't necessarily have those natural players to offset your strengths and their
strengths or your challenges against their challenges.

319
00:24:22,550 --> 00:24:31,290
When you're working in a team in an ecosystem, you can kind of wrap some more rigorous
structures around who is delegated to what task.

320
00:24:31,468 --> 00:24:36,181
I'm really curious of the creatives, because you've spent a lot of time working with some
big performers.

321
00:24:36,181 --> 00:24:44,887
And I imagine seeing lots of different folk come through the doors of Blackbird, both in
that higher level startup ecosystem, and then also the youth philanthropic arm that you've

322
00:24:44,887 --> 00:24:45,628
got.

323
00:24:45,628 --> 00:24:54,613
What have been some of the common patterns you've seen of the strengths that you see come
through the door of people who've got real big ideas for innovation?

324
00:24:55,374 --> 00:25:01,378
Well, I think, so I mean, my ideas on this are informed both by the

325
00:25:01,430 --> 00:25:13,361
my experiences at Blackbird and the founders that we've worked with at Blackbird as well
as their foundation, which I can tell you also it's been informed by the work with artists

326
00:25:13,361 --> 00:25:14,194
as well.

327
00:25:14,194 --> 00:25:27,498
first thing that I'll say is that the thing that was most surprising and like beautiful
for me to recognize when I got to Blackbird, it's when I arrived again coming from the

328
00:25:27,498 --> 00:25:29,458
arts, working with bands.

329
00:25:29,550 --> 00:25:34,270
I was like traveling the world, going to music festivals, hanging out in dingy little
clubs.

330
00:25:34,270 --> 00:25:36,970
It was a really fun, awesome job.

331
00:25:36,970 --> 00:25:39,950
It wasn't, I wouldn't say that a professional job.

332
00:25:39,950 --> 00:25:42,830
One of the things that, I mean, we weren't professional.

333
00:25:42,830 --> 00:25:45,010
We got good at our job by the end.

334
00:25:45,010 --> 00:25:53,010
One of the things that I was afraid of and nervous about coming to Blackbird was that I'm
coming from the arts to financial services, essentially.

335
00:25:53,010 --> 00:25:58,698
We tried to make Blackbird something more than a financial services business, but the time
I like, coming to this thing.

336
00:25:58,698 --> 00:26:00,268
What do I know about founders?

337
00:26:00,268 --> 00:26:01,869
What do I know about startups?

338
00:26:01,869 --> 00:26:03,899
What do know about finance or investing?

339
00:26:03,899 --> 00:26:06,340
don't know any of those things and if done, I've never seen it.

340
00:26:06,340 --> 00:26:08,201
Didn't know anything about it.

341
00:26:08,201 --> 00:26:19,564
And one of things that was most surprising to me and comforting when I landed was that the
type of person that can create a company, the type of person that can create a song,

342
00:26:19,764 --> 00:26:22,965
there's not that much distance between those two people.

343
00:26:23,265 --> 00:26:26,146
the personality type and the

344
00:26:26,338 --> 00:26:31,979
the things that you need to bring something into the world where there was not anything
previously.

345
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:33,560
They're very, very similar.

346
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:38,701
Like they're both engaged in acts of creation as a fundamental.

347
00:26:39,162 --> 00:26:40,432
They're creating different things.

348
00:26:40,432 --> 00:26:42,042
It's like their medium is different.

349
00:26:42,042 --> 00:26:47,004
Someone's building a company, know, building a team and those other things.

350
00:26:47,004 --> 00:26:51,005
And someone is like writing a song, making a movie, making a film.

351
00:26:51,005 --> 00:26:52,915
Film's easier to understand when you think about it.

352
00:26:52,915 --> 00:26:56,306
Because making a film is more akin to a story, isn't it?

353
00:26:56,642 --> 00:27:03,665
You can have an idea and a vision for something, either if you're a founder or a film
maker.

354
00:27:03,665 --> 00:27:11,918
If you make a film, you write a script, and let's say you're the director, you then have
to spend, once you've done the creative work, the ideation, the story of the building, you

355
00:27:11,918 --> 00:27:21,152
then have to go on this long journey of finding people to help you make it, that are
experts in their own discipline, and that can bring your vision to life.

356
00:27:21,152 --> 00:27:22,963
That's not so different to what a founder does.

357
00:27:22,963 --> 00:27:25,014
In fact, some of it's exactly the same work.

358
00:27:25,014 --> 00:27:26,054
The process.

359
00:27:26,382 --> 00:27:32,112
Yeah, and so they come to Blackburn and say that, like the archetype for a founder and an
artist is the same thing.

360
00:27:32,112 --> 00:27:34,502
Like they're just playing in different areas.

361
00:27:34,502 --> 00:27:38,462
Like that thing to me was really interesting to see.

362
00:27:38,462 --> 00:27:50,162
And I guess like the stuff that like, if I'm trying, if I try and like describe what those
two personalities or those two types of people have, first thing that I'd say is that it's

363
00:27:50,162 --> 00:27:54,260
like, it's like seeing something in the world.

364
00:27:54,434 --> 00:28:04,017
They both see something different in the world or they have a view of the way the world
should be, or they have a view, an interesting perspective on the world or something

365
00:28:04,017 --> 00:28:05,317
within the world.

366
00:28:05,317 --> 00:28:13,420
And they're driven to express that in some way or to make something that addresses that
difference that they see.

367
00:28:13,420 --> 00:28:21,326
So to me, those sorts of people, like the skill sets that you need, the tactical skills
that you need to be able to bring those things to life.

368
00:28:21,326 --> 00:28:26,086
First of all, some kind of craft or discipline or profession I think is usually helpful.

369
00:28:26,086 --> 00:28:28,286
So it could be a software engineer.

370
00:28:28,286 --> 00:28:34,826
It could be, you know, how to use a paintbrush, you know, wherever it is, it's like a
tactical skillset that will help you make the thing.

371
00:28:34,826 --> 00:28:37,686
But then the personality things that are nice.

372
00:28:37,686 --> 00:28:48,326
First of all, like you definitely need like, you definitely need to have some
determination about it because the process of bringing something to life is never

373
00:28:48,326 --> 00:28:49,506
straightforward.

374
00:28:50,414 --> 00:28:52,254
straight line from beginning to end.

375
00:28:52,254 --> 00:28:55,654
always ups and downs and you run into challenges and difficulties.

376
00:28:55,654 --> 00:29:03,374
So in tech world, we say grit, determination, I would have those sorts of descriptors.

377
00:29:03,374 --> 00:29:06,194
I just think it's like a perseverance.

378
00:29:06,674 --> 00:29:12,174
It's a focus on the thing that you want to make and that is what...

379
00:29:12,174 --> 00:29:17,998
The other thing that the other skill sets that or attributes, I guess, that will get you
to

380
00:29:17,998 --> 00:29:23,158
through that, that will make it possible for you to move through the creation of
something.

381
00:29:23,638 --> 00:29:30,238
You are curious and that makes it possible for you to be a self-directed learner.

382
00:29:30,238 --> 00:29:32,738
A person who can learn anything, learn it on your own.

383
00:29:32,738 --> 00:29:37,378
I think that both artists and founders are the same.

384
00:29:37,818 --> 00:29:40,898
We say at Blackboard we look for learned adults as well.

385
00:29:42,878 --> 00:29:47,022
Artists themselves, if you've ever worked with it, I've worked a lot of

386
00:29:47,022 --> 00:29:58,542
musicians, they literally like teach them, they might go to sing lessons to play the
instrument, but the act of learning to write a song, have you ever like, I've never seen a

387
00:29:58,542 --> 00:30:01,122
place that you can teach you how to a song.

388
00:30:01,122 --> 00:30:08,882
You can go to music school where they'll teach composition, but how to like create
something that has meaning and that makes people feel things.

389
00:30:08,882 --> 00:30:09,812
comes from somewhere else.

390
00:30:09,812 --> 00:30:11,802
It's a different source code, isn't it?

391
00:30:11,802 --> 00:30:12,482
Yeah.

392
00:30:12,482 --> 00:30:16,184
And like, if there's no obvious place to go and be taught that,

393
00:30:16,184 --> 00:30:19,827
that I know of or that I've seen, that means that you have to learn it yourself.

394
00:30:19,827 --> 00:30:24,260
And that's where you taste any idea of culture and those things come into play.

395
00:30:24,260 --> 00:30:28,675
There's probably other things, how do they sound?

396
00:30:28,675 --> 00:30:29,746
I think they're brilliant.

397
00:30:29,746 --> 00:30:33,169
I'm just like, nodding and giggling and smiling.

398
00:30:33,550 --> 00:30:41,817
I've been reading the Art of Impossible or sharing with you earlier Stephen Kotler's work
and a lot of what you've just mentioned there in terms of the different personality types,

399
00:30:41,817 --> 00:30:43,126
the archetypes.

400
00:30:43,126 --> 00:30:48,478
I love that idea that you shared as well that, you know, the creative, it's about finding
your medium.

401
00:30:48,478 --> 00:30:58,913
It's about finding the tool, you know, whatever that is in, order to sort of, feels like a
groundedness of how do you, how do you express this creativity in the world?

402
00:30:58,913 --> 00:31:01,466
And that's such a different journey for everybody.

403
00:31:01,466 --> 00:31:09,708
I haven't shared openly publicly yet because, you know, he's a little bit, he's a little
bit ahead of his time, but my son who's 15, who's a, who's a twice exceptional super quick

404
00:31:09,708 --> 00:31:10,518
kid.

405
00:31:11,170 --> 00:31:17,153
has just started up his rap music and is currently number one on TikTok in Australia.

406
00:31:17,153 --> 00:31:18,153
No.

407
00:31:18,153 --> 00:31:20,054
I'm not even lying.

408
00:31:20,114 --> 00:31:28,418
But what's really interesting again, diving into this research is understanding that, so
they've studied rappers, they've studied jazz improvisers.

409
00:31:28,438 --> 00:31:37,346
And to your point of like, what's the stretch between these incredible artistic creative
musicians and then entrepreneurship and founders?

410
00:31:37,346 --> 00:31:39,477
I mean, my son's incredibly entrepreneurial.

411
00:31:39,477 --> 00:31:44,550
think he started his first business when he was 12, kids making more money than me at this
point in time.

412
00:31:44,550 --> 00:31:50,934
And that brain type that just can clock in and see things differently, but then to
execute.

413
00:31:50,934 --> 00:31:53,205
that is fascinating to me.

414
00:31:53,205 --> 00:31:57,818
know, what part of it is natural skill and gift and talent and strength.

415
00:31:57,818 --> 00:32:05,292
And then to your point, where's the discipline of the grit and the determination, the
perseverance, and how much of that is driven by?

416
00:32:05,292 --> 00:32:07,954
almost like a dog that has to chew on the bone kind of feeling.

417
00:32:07,954 --> 00:32:16,551
I don't know about you, but for me, it's like, if I've got a problem that I'm, that I'm
riffing on, that problem is just not going to get left alone until I've got a solution,

418
00:32:16,551 --> 00:32:19,854
which is interesting because in the research, they'll talk about stupid grit.

419
00:32:19,854 --> 00:32:28,091
And I don't know, I haven't yet met a startup founder or a musician or an artist that has
a sense of what I would call stupid grit.

420
00:32:28,091 --> 00:32:31,543
just, it's, it's, it's a, it's perseverant problem.

421
00:32:32,224 --> 00:32:34,686
But yeah, I don't know if that brings up anything for you.

422
00:32:35,182 --> 00:32:37,632
Yeah, a couple of thoughts, a couple of thoughts based on what you've said.

423
00:32:37,632 --> 00:32:42,032
So the first thing I'll say is that like creativity is a birthright.

424
00:32:42,032 --> 00:32:43,082
We all have it.

425
00:32:43,082 --> 00:32:46,422
Everybody is creative from the moment that we're born.

426
00:32:46,422 --> 00:32:56,342
It gets trained out of us and we get taught to, we get taught to, and this is, just
mentioned there is a few things, freestyle rappers, jazz musicians, people with the

427
00:32:56,342 --> 00:33:03,582
ability to improvise who have no block between what's going on in their mind or what they
want to express.

428
00:33:03,582 --> 00:33:04,722
Incredible.

429
00:33:04,824 --> 00:33:11,106
So what happens is I think, I'm sure there's research on this, but as we grow up, these
little kids don't have the block.

430
00:33:11,106 --> 00:33:12,376
There's nothing there.

431
00:33:12,376 --> 00:33:16,757
Like they just can express exactly what they want within their own means.

432
00:33:16,777 --> 00:33:18,958
like, know, brain still developing.

433
00:33:18,958 --> 00:33:27,130
But then as we get older, we get all these like, you know, distortion filters and things
put in front of it to stop us from maybe the socialization, maybe it's education.

434
00:33:27,130 --> 00:33:33,994
don't know, but like, freestyle rap is super interesting to me because they are able to
just get

435
00:33:33,994 --> 00:33:36,155
out exactly what's in their mind.

436
00:33:36,155 --> 00:33:39,276
And that to me, like I think everybody has that within them.

437
00:33:39,276 --> 00:33:46,978
That's a training to remove the blockages is a training, but everyone's got the mind
that's capable of being creative.

438
00:33:46,978 --> 00:33:51,599
And we say that in the foundation I run for Blackboard foundation.

439
00:33:51,599 --> 00:33:54,420
The mission is to unleash creativity in young people.

440
00:33:54,420 --> 00:33:59,232
And one of the things that we say is that it is like everybody has this thing in them.

441
00:33:59,232 --> 00:34:01,134
It's just that

442
00:34:01,134 --> 00:34:06,194
most people as adults, needs to be unleashed, needs to be unlocked.

443
00:34:06,454 --> 00:34:10,994
And there are different, you know, people can create different levels of things.

444
00:34:10,994 --> 00:34:21,134
Like, I'm not saying that there isn't a difference between a highly talented artist or
singer or whatever, and someone who's just learning.

445
00:34:21,134 --> 00:34:27,514
Of course, is a difference between those things, but the act of creation is something that
we're all capable of.

446
00:34:27,514 --> 00:34:28,422
is

447
00:34:28,438 --> 00:34:33,361
It is the one, it is the thing that human beings do different to every other species.

448
00:34:33,361 --> 00:34:36,563
The reason that we have, that we progress at all.

449
00:34:36,684 --> 00:34:41,787
This idea that we can make things and put stuff into the world that was not there before.

450
00:34:41,787 --> 00:34:43,027
Yeah.

451
00:34:43,268 --> 00:34:52,995
And, you know, I don't think there's any reason why, you know, why we can't live in a
world where like everybody has like a little bit of something to offer where they make,

452
00:34:52,995 --> 00:34:57,297
they are able to create things from their own experience, their own tastes.

453
00:34:58,402 --> 00:34:59,022
I love that.

454
00:34:59,022 --> 00:35:05,174
And for me, I'm thinking about the simplest of acts and expressions of creativity that I
see and I appreciate.

455
00:35:05,174 --> 00:35:15,081
And it's things like a meal that somebody's brought to the table that I haven't seen done
or tasted before and their expression of how they even present that meal and the music

456
00:35:15,081 --> 00:35:22,015
that they put with that meal, the way that they set up the room when you walk in, a
conversation that you have with somebody that sparks a new insight, then that ripple

457
00:35:22,015 --> 00:35:25,562
effect that goes on to have its next moment in time.

458
00:35:25,562 --> 00:35:27,630
I mean, these are all just mini

459
00:35:27,630 --> 00:35:29,090
moments of creativity.

460
00:35:29,090 --> 00:35:31,850
So I love that you're bringing that home.

461
00:35:31,850 --> 00:35:33,170
Yeah, well, just expressions.

462
00:35:33,170 --> 00:35:37,610
They're just expressions of things that you feel and ideas that you have.

463
00:35:37,850 --> 00:35:40,290
Creativity is how come up with it.

464
00:35:40,370 --> 00:35:44,430
The attitude making something from creativity is the expression.

465
00:35:44,650 --> 00:35:45,710
Yeah.

466
00:35:45,950 --> 00:35:55,550
think the world would be a richer and more beautiful place if we were all just a little
bit more able to remove those interference fields and make it little bit more freely.

467
00:35:56,242 --> 00:35:59,082
Yeah, I can't help but dive in with a couple of tips there.

468
00:35:59,082 --> 00:36:04,002
What's really interesting is there are a couple of different types of meditative practices
that you can do.

469
00:36:04,002 --> 00:36:13,062
So one will open up your mindset and access that imagination at work and the other one
will help you to be able to access and converge the data if you like or the detail in

470
00:36:13,062 --> 00:36:13,612
front of you.

471
00:36:13,612 --> 00:36:20,327
So if you're needing to be able to open up, you want to be able to go and do practices in
nature where you're grounding yourself.

472
00:36:20,327 --> 00:36:25,008
noticing the environment around you, expanding your expression of self beyond.

473
00:36:25,008 --> 00:36:30,130
So can you see, smell, hear, feel, taste, touch out in nature?

474
00:36:30,130 --> 00:36:38,592
If you wanted to do the opposite and bring it back in and get really detailed, that's
where you go to your single breath types of practices or a mantra practice.

475
00:36:38,812 --> 00:36:45,378
So what's really cool is coming out of these high performance, high creativity protocols
that once we understand

476
00:36:45,378 --> 00:36:52,470
the brains that we're working with and the biology that we've got naturally, we can kind
of hack around the challenges, which leads me into my one of my last questions for you

477
00:36:52,470 --> 00:36:54,440
before we get to our quick fire round.

478
00:36:54,701 --> 00:37:04,773
What are some of the challenges that you notice amongst highly creative people that you
work with or within yourself that can sometimes get in the way if we accept that self

479
00:37:04,773 --> 00:37:08,444
beliefs can be one of them that we all need to move on?

480
00:37:08,444 --> 00:37:10,805
What are some other challenges that you notice?

481
00:37:11,625 --> 00:37:15,126
I think the first thing is I think most people

482
00:37:15,438 --> 00:37:17,378
And this is what I experienced.

483
00:37:17,378 --> 00:37:24,158
A lot of people don't identify as creative because the word creative is tied to the arts.

484
00:37:24,158 --> 00:37:28,718
And so if you don't have an arts practice, a lot of people just don't think of themselves
as creative.

485
00:37:28,718 --> 00:37:33,278
So that's the first thing I'd say is just this limiting idea of what creativity actually
is.

486
00:37:33,278 --> 00:37:36,018
I think a lot of people experience that.

487
00:37:36,018 --> 00:37:37,128
I experienced that.

488
00:37:37,128 --> 00:37:39,218
A lot of people I work with experience that.

489
00:37:39,218 --> 00:37:45,134
When we first launched, we have a grant program that we run through the foundation called
Proto Stars, which is

490
00:37:45,134 --> 00:37:49,574
We give micro grants to young people under 25 with passion projects.

491
00:37:49,894 --> 00:37:52,034
Now, passion projects are super diverse.

492
00:37:52,034 --> 00:38:03,974
They're like, we have one young dude who drives a Toyota Land Cruiser around the outback
with a truck full of robotics in the back and gives robotics workshops to young kids in

493
00:38:03,974 --> 00:38:05,194
schools.

494
00:38:05,194 --> 00:38:12,642
then one person who's a finalist and wanted to flip from portraits to landscapes.

495
00:38:12,642 --> 00:38:14,573
So she, you know, she wanted to do an exhibition.

496
00:38:14,573 --> 00:38:18,084
So we have all this like really very big difference between all of them.

497
00:38:18,084 --> 00:38:20,485
This program didn't work in the beginning.

498
00:38:20,485 --> 00:38:24,707
The first time I launched it was when we launched the foundation and it didn't work.

499
00:38:24,707 --> 00:38:29,729
didn't get any applications for it because I didn't say some projects, I said creative.

500
00:38:29,889 --> 00:38:34,031
I said, we're looking for people with creative projects.

501
00:38:34,031 --> 00:38:35,752
And you know what I got?

502
00:38:35,752 --> 00:38:40,223
Theater, couple of films, but not very much at That is so interesting.

503
00:38:40,223 --> 00:38:41,804
A language barrier.

504
00:38:41,932 --> 00:38:44,003
We flipped it to passion projects.

505
00:38:44,003 --> 00:38:44,453
Guess what?

506
00:38:44,453 --> 00:38:46,384
Everyone's passionate about something.

507
00:38:46,604 --> 00:38:54,767
And so, and we intentionally just got to the sorts of things that we thought were
considered passion projects.

508
00:38:54,767 --> 00:39:01,850
And of course we had the most diverse group of young people with the most diverse group of
passions and interests.

509
00:39:01,850 --> 00:39:06,662
So that's the first thing I would say is like the limiting things, the stuff, the
challenges, the barriers that people create.

510
00:39:06,662 --> 00:39:11,294
People have, especially most people who are creative don't see themselves as creative.

511
00:39:12,066 --> 00:39:18,148
That's something I would encourage people to try and do is expand their understanding of
what creativity is.

512
00:39:19,589 --> 00:39:29,493
Then the really tactical things which you would be familiar with, which we talked about a
little bit earlier, is like for me personally and for others that I've seen is how do you

513
00:39:29,493 --> 00:39:37,927
actually build the discipline or a craft or whatever it is to actually make something that
would creativity.

514
00:39:37,927 --> 00:39:39,207
What is there as an expression?

515
00:39:39,207 --> 00:39:40,378
Ideas are like ourselves.

516
00:39:40,378 --> 00:39:41,582
Everyone's got one.

517
00:39:41,582 --> 00:39:46,342
think that's kind of true in the sense that it's so easy to come up with ideas.

518
00:39:46,342 --> 00:39:54,822
It's not necessarily easy, ideas are just in your own mind unless you choose to do
something with them and to make something with them.

519
00:39:54,822 --> 00:40:04,022
You don't have to make something of every idea, obviously, but I think that the discipline
and the craft and the skills are important to putting something to life, the different

520
00:40:04,022 --> 00:40:07,662
disciplines to the ideation and the creativity.

521
00:40:07,662 --> 00:40:10,242
And so it's the development of those things.

522
00:40:10,242 --> 00:40:11,638
like we talked about,

523
00:40:12,334 --> 00:40:14,454
towards that is understanding yourself.

524
00:40:14,454 --> 00:40:17,344
then because everything's like, there's no set answer.

525
00:40:17,344 --> 00:40:22,704
don't think like, for me, was, I couldn't read a single book that would tell me exactly
what to do.

526
00:40:22,704 --> 00:40:24,284
I to read a few different things.

527
00:40:24,284 --> 00:40:32,454
I had to understand myself and I had to experiment and build processes and practices and
skill sets that I didn't have previously, but they're unique to me.

528
00:40:32,454 --> 00:40:34,934
They weren't, they're not the same for everybody.

529
00:40:34,934 --> 00:40:42,182
So I think that like, you know, that ability to be able to build that, those, you know,
that

530
00:40:42,382 --> 00:40:46,612
those skill sets and practices that help them bring something to life.

531
00:40:46,612 --> 00:40:48,382
think that's crucial.

532
00:40:49,462 --> 00:40:56,532
Something you could use is if you are creative, it's possible, then you're most probably
good at learning and self-directed learning.

533
00:40:56,532 --> 00:40:58,802
So it's possible for you to learn those things and build it.

534
00:40:58,802 --> 00:41:02,142
It just takes a little bit of experimenting into their practice.

535
00:41:02,402 --> 00:41:09,342
And then the other thing I'd say that's about the people is that I don't think people need
until you really need it.

536
00:41:09,342 --> 00:41:10,508
It really

537
00:41:10,508 --> 00:41:13,521
value creativity as much as I think they should.

538
00:41:13,521 --> 00:41:16,163
And I think that's because it's less tangible.

539
00:41:16,163 --> 00:41:25,331
it's, it's, like, it's not like saying I'm my, talk about it in a professional context.

540
00:41:25,331 --> 00:41:30,595
My job is, I'm a teacher.

541
00:41:30,595 --> 00:41:37,701
Like that is a discipline as well known, but it's understood there's a lot of things and
skills and attributes and training you need to do to be able to become a teacher.

542
00:41:37,701 --> 00:41:39,282
But like it's.

543
00:41:39,390 --> 00:41:41,191
It's understood what that is.

544
00:41:41,192 --> 00:41:45,845
If you talk about creativity with someone, it's sort of a little bit more ephemeral.

545
00:41:45,845 --> 00:41:55,543
It's not as easy for them to latch onto what that means and what skills and attributes and
training you need to do to become a creative person.

546
00:41:55,543 --> 00:42:04,991
And then it's not also entirely clear what the output of that might be unless you
specifically apply it to, say, a discipline like painting or whatever.

547
00:42:04,991 --> 00:42:09,164
So I think like, yeah, they're my ideas.

548
00:42:09,484 --> 00:42:10,915
Yeah, I think they're great.

549
00:42:10,915 --> 00:42:14,776
It's funny, I'm thinking of my own creative process as well.

550
00:42:14,776 --> 00:42:18,838
And I don't know if you noticed this in the startup community.

551
00:42:18,838 --> 00:42:30,303
When I first took a dive into entrepreneurialism and took my craft from the theatre and
performing arts and then combined that with what I started to understand about psychology.

552
00:42:30,303 --> 00:42:33,755
And at the time, I don't even think the buzzword science communication were around.

553
00:42:33,755 --> 00:42:36,666
And people would ask me, well, what do you do?

554
00:42:37,144 --> 00:42:46,413
And I would try and technically describe that in a way that was more, scale positive
psychology and performance psychology concepts to people so that rather than having to be

555
00:42:46,413 --> 00:42:50,646
in a one in one environment that they can learn and apply themselves.

556
00:42:50,727 --> 00:42:55,551
And the effort that would, that the other person, you know, even as I say, I'm like, even
that sounds ridiculous.

557
00:42:55,551 --> 00:42:56,782
Cause that's not really what it is.

558
00:42:56,782 --> 00:43:03,118
It's how do you, how do you wrap words around something that is new that hasn't, hasn't
necessarily been done before.

559
00:43:03,118 --> 00:43:08,478
And so like you said, you can feel it when you, when you can see and hear and feel the
creative process.

560
00:43:08,478 --> 00:43:14,938
go watch a show or you listen to a piece of music or you watch somebody unearth something
for the first time.

561
00:43:14,938 --> 00:43:20,738
all have a sense of the essence of creativity, but yeah, I really like what you've
described there.

562
00:43:20,738 --> 00:43:24,328
And I encourage anybody who's listening to, to, do some of the discipline.

563
00:43:24,328 --> 00:43:31,478
I'm going to do this off the back of our call, do some of the discipline around wrapping
the language to, to, and the storytelling.

564
00:43:31,478 --> 00:43:33,004
There's a big piece of that, isn't it?

565
00:43:33,004 --> 00:43:41,916
the storytelling to how you express your natural set of passions, skills, strengths, and
purpose in the world, because that's where the impact lies.

566
00:43:42,977 --> 00:43:44,567
There's something in the storytelling there.

567
00:43:44,567 --> 00:43:46,568
You've given me some things to think about.

568
00:43:46,568 --> 00:43:49,199
My own divergent, he's going wild.

569
00:43:49,199 --> 00:43:52,880
Am I trying to grab it from the end?

570
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,340
Like how to express your ideas is so...

571
00:43:56,441 --> 00:43:58,241
It's a skill in itself.

572
00:43:58,241 --> 00:44:01,562
In a professional context, it often comes...

573
00:44:01,582 --> 00:44:07,882
I always find it much, I've always found it much easier to show people what I mean, rather
than to try and tell them what I mean.

574
00:44:07,882 --> 00:44:08,922
Me too.

575
00:44:09,002 --> 00:44:12,222
But that is, that in itself is a bit of storytelling.

576
00:44:12,282 --> 00:44:23,782
But if you're a conceptual thinker, creative person, when you have ideas, being able to
help people to understand those ideas is like, it is almost the most important thing that

577
00:44:23,782 --> 00:44:25,022
you can learn how to do.

578
00:44:25,022 --> 00:44:27,262
At least so you can learn how to do.

579
00:44:27,702 --> 00:44:30,990
But those, like, part of being a creative

580
00:44:30,990 --> 00:44:38,995
person and part of like inspiring people with ideas and bringing them on a journey and
getting them to help you is getting them to understand it.

581
00:44:39,136 --> 00:44:47,431
And I think like most, for most people, the things they want to make have a better chance
of being successful if you're able to build it with other people or you're able to people

582
00:44:47,431 --> 00:44:51,464
along and get them to support you and believe in it or help you with it.

583
00:44:51,464 --> 00:45:00,865
And you can't do that unless you've got the skill sets to be able to clearly and
succinctly communicate, you know, what it is you think and what your ideas are.

584
00:45:00,970 --> 00:45:02,952
And like I said, it's all, it's a practice.

585
00:45:02,952 --> 00:45:05,594
It's a practice that you can get good at.

586
00:45:05,594 --> 00:45:06,905
Yeah, it is a practice.

587
00:45:06,905 --> 00:45:13,360
And I think when you're surrounded by an ecosystem, that's a practice that you can, you
can kind of riff with other people where that is their strength.

588
00:45:13,441 --> 00:45:19,465
For those who are listening, because I know we've got a really high proportion of, of
solopreneurs in our listener community.

589
00:45:19,806 --> 00:45:30,040
I'm really excited to share we're working on an AI enhanced chat bot effectively that
helps to take that big, what we call circular thinking or the big visions and

590
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:35,632
train people to be able to get some linear thinking and storytelling into their
communications.

591
00:45:35,632 --> 00:45:46,417
So what really excites me about the intersectionality of technology and then these human
skills that we've got as creativity is I think we can start to lean in a little bit more

592
00:45:46,417 --> 00:45:56,951
on technology to be able to buffer some of those challenges that those of us with more
divergent thinking brains or neurodivergent brains experience because, know, why not?

593
00:45:56,951 --> 00:45:58,540
We want to plug in the gap somewhere.

594
00:45:58,540 --> 00:46:04,254
So I think it's gonna be really interesting the next few years to see how technology can
support people.

595
00:46:04,415 --> 00:46:13,582
And I'm also up for creating more space for ecosystems because unless we use each other as
humans, that's where the magic lies really, isn't it?

596
00:46:14,223 --> 00:46:15,264
Yeah, totally.

597
00:46:15,264 --> 00:46:24,371
I think like just thinking then as you were describing that, there's a profession that
does it really well, the storytelling.

598
00:46:24,972 --> 00:46:27,424
taking the highly creative people

599
00:46:27,438 --> 00:46:35,278
They're very conceptual thinkers and they're at actually creating action and making
products from their creativity.

600
00:46:35,278 --> 00:46:38,518
They're also great at telling the story and that's advertisers.

601
00:46:38,518 --> 00:46:41,098
I don't like the products and they kind of like ads.

602
00:46:41,098 --> 00:46:48,978
But if you think about the skill sets, are like, think ad agencies have some of the most
creative people in the world working for them.

603
00:46:48,978 --> 00:46:51,908
also have up to 73 % of ADHDs, by the way.

604
00:46:51,908 --> 00:46:53,078
Did you know that?

605
00:46:53,078 --> 00:46:53,938
No, I didn't.

606
00:46:53,938 --> 00:46:55,106
That's really interesting.

607
00:46:55,106 --> 00:46:56,667
Which is fascinating.

608
00:46:56,667 --> 00:47:05,704
Well, I'm not surprised, when to use it to your point, when when the execution is the
power there, like that, we want to we want to get to know that population.

609
00:47:05,704 --> 00:47:08,225
yeah, advertising, go on, share more.

610
00:47:08,225 --> 00:47:09,636
Well, we learn from them.

611
00:47:09,636 --> 00:47:12,112
Like I said, I don't think I don't like the products.

612
00:47:12,112 --> 00:47:13,849
I don't think that's that useful in the world.

613
00:47:13,849 --> 00:47:22,996
But like, if you think about the journey, these people have to go in with the skill that
they use is how to actually first of all, harness the creativity, but then a huge part of

614
00:47:22,996 --> 00:47:23,544
it.

615
00:47:23,544 --> 00:47:27,895
They go to school to learn how to do this, communication of their ideas.

616
00:47:27,895 --> 00:47:30,586
And they learn this through the language they use as pitching.

617
00:47:30,586 --> 00:47:32,836
They learn how to pitch ideas.

618
00:47:32,997 --> 00:47:37,078
if you're a creator, an agency, you spend a lot of your time pitching ideas.

619
00:47:37,518 --> 00:47:41,449
And so I think that is a space where I hadn't thought about this previously.

620
00:47:41,449 --> 00:47:43,894
I just kind of thought about it as we were speaking about.

621
00:47:43,894 --> 00:47:52,982
think if we want to learn how you create the skill set, how do you learn the skill set and
what the discipline of storytelling is as it relates to

622
00:47:53,102 --> 00:47:57,395
Communicating ideas probably advertise a good place to look at.

623
00:47:57,395 --> 00:47:57,905
love that.

624
00:47:57,905 --> 00:47:59,526
And also the art of pitching.

625
00:47:59,526 --> 00:48:03,489
That's definitely that's, that's always a work in progress for me personally.

626
00:48:03,489 --> 00:48:05,020
Shout out to Jade one as well.

627
00:48:05,020 --> 00:48:10,673
She's in this series and is an incredible marketing guru for small businesses.

628
00:48:10,764 --> 00:48:15,397
I'm learning a lot going through her processes at the moment of just, and it's a
discipline.

629
00:48:15,397 --> 00:48:18,589
It's an art form of, of a skill to hone and to develop.

630
00:48:18,589 --> 00:48:21,641
So take that one away listeners, practice.

631
00:48:23,294 --> 00:48:26,876
Different meditation practices, switch on your conversion or your diversion thinking.

632
00:48:26,876 --> 00:48:33,498
We have covered so much Joel, I could sit and literally with you for hours, but I won't
because you've got an incredible day to go and have.

633
00:48:33,498 --> 00:48:35,819
So before we go, are you ready for our quick fire round?

634
00:48:35,819 --> 00:48:38,374
We'll have to make it super quick because I know we're back to back here.

635
00:48:38,374 --> 00:48:39,621
All right, let's go.

636
00:48:39,621 --> 00:48:48,144
First question for you, what comes to mind when you hear the words impact mindset or what
qualities of people I should say come to mind when you hear the words impact mindset?

637
00:48:48,604 --> 00:48:52,146
Yeah, to me it's action orientated.

638
00:48:52,812 --> 00:48:57,705
And that's because I think this is a lot of is big.

639
00:48:57,705 --> 00:49:04,489
And I think one thing that the entire space could use is.

640
00:49:05,510 --> 00:49:06,570
That doesn't come up.

641
00:49:06,570 --> 00:49:07,371
I like that.

642
00:49:07,371 --> 00:49:08,431
like it.

643
00:49:08,712 --> 00:49:09,852
Inclusive impact.

644
00:49:09,852 --> 00:49:11,533
What comes to mind there?

645
00:49:13,174 --> 00:49:19,578
Straight away to me, it was having an understanding and respect for.

646
00:49:19,830 --> 00:49:28,447
all the different types of people that are in the world and creating spaces and
particularly in professional spaces, workspaces, where people can bring their whole, their

647
00:49:28,447 --> 00:49:30,338
actual unique selves to work with.

648
00:49:30,338 --> 00:49:36,783
The whole selves you want to save some for outside of work, but I think like an authentic
version of yourself to work.

649
00:49:36,783 --> 00:49:45,800
And so that to me, think inclusive spaces, they have spaces that allow people to be as
authentic as they can be or as they need to

650
00:49:46,978 --> 00:49:50,219
I like that little caveat of the professional filter there.

651
00:49:50,219 --> 00:49:54,980
It's a really interesting conversation happening around unmasking in our community.

652
00:49:54,980 --> 00:49:58,203
And then what is the difference between that and professional filtering?

653
00:49:58,203 --> 00:50:00,764
And I think that's a really important conversation to be had.

654
00:50:00,764 --> 00:50:02,024
Thank you for sharing.

655
00:50:02,024 --> 00:50:09,097
What about when it comes to creating inclusive communities, workplaces, schools, what's
your hope for the future?

656
00:50:09,097 --> 00:50:10,608
Cause I know you're a dad as well.

657
00:50:10,608 --> 00:50:13,228
What's the world that you see brought to life?

658
00:50:14,069 --> 00:50:16,950
Well, first of all, I like, think like

659
00:50:17,210 --> 00:50:25,583
My hope is that in the future we'll have to stop working so hard to make things diverse.

660
00:50:25,583 --> 00:50:32,736
It's incredibly difficult work and it feels like at the moment in the world that we're
which I'm so honored.

661
00:50:32,736 --> 00:50:44,715
Imagine if we're excited to get to a place where we are diverse in our workplaces and in
our communities without having to try to be because in diversity is beauty.

662
00:50:44,715 --> 00:50:47,102
I've talked about it all today about

663
00:50:47,202 --> 00:50:58,728
talked about the beauty in an individual person and in their life experiences and where
they've come from and the languages they speak and the interests they've got and the music

664
00:50:58,728 --> 00:51:07,714
they've listened to and how those experiences create for individual expressions that are
just like magic and can't be copied or replicated.

665
00:51:07,714 --> 00:51:16,334
So imagine, I'm excited for a future where we try something because it is true and it's
bringing these communities where

666
00:51:16,334 --> 00:51:23,074
able to be authentic, bring themselves, bring their own creativity, bring their own
experiences and life journey.

667
00:51:23,774 --> 00:51:26,234
That's a feature I'm really happy to step into with you.

668
00:51:26,234 --> 00:51:26,924
Thank you Joel.

669
00:51:26,924 --> 00:51:28,674
Let's make that one come alive.

670
00:51:28,674 --> 00:51:32,543
What about the books, podcasts, resources, things you're excited about?

671
00:51:32,543 --> 00:51:34,954
Where are you getting your creative sparks from?

672
00:51:34,954 --> 00:51:43,614
Okay, so at the moment, the last year, I've been really interested in Mona, the museum in
Tasmania.

673
00:51:43,614 --> 00:51:45,374
How good is it?

674
00:51:46,126 --> 00:51:47,786
I just love it.

675
00:51:47,786 --> 00:51:50,566
I the actual, first of all, I love the museum.

676
00:51:51,106 --> 00:51:58,826
I think there is no shortage in history of wealthy people who have built museums.

677
00:51:58,866 --> 00:52:03,386
There's something specific about this one that is just really special.

678
00:52:03,926 --> 00:52:10,826
And I love the story of it and the journey and I love the impact it's had on the community
in Tasmania.

679
00:52:11,526 --> 00:52:14,584
And I love the focus on art.

680
00:52:14,584 --> 00:52:16,696
creativity and so on.

681
00:52:16,696 --> 00:52:19,748
I've read David Walsh is the founder.

682
00:52:19,748 --> 00:52:21,019
was just going to ask you that.

683
00:52:21,019 --> 00:52:22,780
It's really interesting, isn't it?

684
00:52:22,780 --> 00:52:25,121
Let's put that down on the must read for our listeners.

685
00:52:25,121 --> 00:52:25,532
Yeah.

686
00:52:25,532 --> 00:52:27,022
What did you love about it?

687
00:52:27,223 --> 00:52:31,135
Well, so it's like Vignette, it's his life in Vignette since the book.

688
00:52:31,135 --> 00:52:34,738
And I would say that every chapter is vegan that I just kind of skipped past.

689
00:52:34,738 --> 00:52:40,742
But I thought like most interesting to me was how widely read that dude is.

690
00:52:40,742 --> 00:52:43,574
he feels like he's had a

691
00:52:43,574 --> 00:52:45,915
lifelong obsession with reading.

692
00:52:46,175 --> 00:52:52,416
so the perspective that he brings to everything is just so varied and interesting.

693
00:52:52,457 --> 00:52:59,599
And so what I got the most out of the book was like every page I pulled, I could go down a
rabbit hole.

694
00:52:59,599 --> 00:53:03,130
had my iPad next to me and I would start looking up places.

695
00:53:03,130 --> 00:53:07,761
He might just write it out a place that he visited and his experience visiting it and a
place I'd never heard.

696
00:53:07,761 --> 00:53:09,861
So I'd like go down that rabbit hole.

697
00:53:09,861 --> 00:53:11,882
And that also leads me to

698
00:53:12,044 --> 00:53:20,701
The other kind of book I've read recently that I've been inspired by was there was an
exhibition at Mona that I went to earlier this year called Name Dropping.

699
00:53:20,701 --> 00:53:27,446
And with that exhibition comes a big art book with a picture of all the curation that
they've done.

700
00:53:27,587 --> 00:53:33,411
And then there's all this research and descriptions of the ideas that are behind the
curation.

701
00:53:33,411 --> 00:53:37,044
That's fascinating to me because when you go and see an art exhibition,

702
00:53:37,358 --> 00:53:40,638
quite often it's a very surface experience.

703
00:53:40,638 --> 00:53:49,498
You look at objects on the wall, you look at some descriptions, you might be able to join,
like connect some of the dots, and then go and buy the book for the exhibition, which

704
00:53:49,498 --> 00:53:56,198
shows how the curators thought about all of the ideas, the research they did, things that
are inspired by that to me.

705
00:53:56,198 --> 00:54:05,334
That, I'm always looking for opportunities for rabbit holes, and that a book like that is
full of rabbit holes.

706
00:54:05,486 --> 00:54:08,569
Well, it's also the creative process mapped out, isn't it?

707
00:54:08,569 --> 00:54:11,952
And reflected upon it and reverse engineered.

708
00:54:11,952 --> 00:54:13,572
Yeah, that's beautiful.

709
00:54:13,773 --> 00:54:15,405
And a few things I'll suggest.

710
00:54:15,405 --> 00:54:20,207
So there's a podcast called TasteLand, which I really enjoy.

711
00:54:20,207 --> 00:54:27,484
It's still brand new, but it's, mentioned earlier, there's a media company called Dirt
that writes about culture.

712
00:54:27,985 --> 00:54:30,946
And the founder of that, Daisy, has a podcast.

713
00:54:30,946 --> 00:54:33,800
And I find that to be fascinating.

714
00:54:33,998 --> 00:54:37,738
And then the fixed book I'm reading is called Afterworlds.

715
00:54:37,738 --> 00:54:40,658
It's by woman known as Debbie Obetsuki.

716
00:54:40,658 --> 00:54:43,738
I can't describe it, but it's certainly the first thing like no one wants to read.

717
00:54:43,738 --> 00:54:53,378
Essentially, it's like the transition from a human-centric earth to a nature-centric earth
where humans leave the earth.

718
00:54:53,378 --> 00:54:57,798
And that decision is not being made by humans, it's being made for them.

719
00:54:58,578 --> 00:55:01,678
it is a transition.

720
00:55:02,348 --> 00:55:08,640
Yeah, it's like, it's really beautiful and challenging and I just so invented the way
she's written it.

721
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:15,162
It's written by, the perspective is the, from, call this the perspective.

722
00:55:15,162 --> 00:55:22,643
It's written by what's called a story worker, which is an angel that's been tasked with
cataloging the last days of humans on Earth.

723
00:55:23,744 --> 00:55:26,811
yeah, it's, it's, it's really interesting.

724
00:55:26,811 --> 00:55:31,686
It's such a book and probably the one of the most inventive things I've read in a little
while.

725
00:55:32,590 --> 00:55:37,114
Haste, diversity, creativity, all wrapped up in that list.

726
00:55:37,114 --> 00:55:39,075
I'm excited to dive in.

727
00:55:39,075 --> 00:55:40,376
Podcast, new book.

728
00:55:40,376 --> 00:55:43,199
I'm going to dive into that one, Afterworld, did you say?

729
00:55:43,199 --> 00:55:44,980
That sounds awesome.

730
00:55:44,980 --> 00:55:46,942
If you're a fast reader, you'll breeze through it.

731
00:55:46,942 --> 00:55:52,310
I'm slow reader, very slow It sounds like it's very detailed and very, that there's a lot
there.

732
00:55:52,310 --> 00:55:53,107
No?

733
00:55:53,107 --> 00:55:53,437
Yes?

734
00:55:53,437 --> 00:55:55,609
There is, there is, but it's a short book.

735
00:55:55,609 --> 00:55:56,990
It's not very thick.

736
00:55:56,990 --> 00:55:59,973
it could be a weekend read by The Sounds of Things.

737
00:55:59,973 --> 00:56:02,184
Yeah, you could do that.

738
00:56:02,711 --> 00:56:09,587
If you read big books and literature, this is literature, but it's fairly approachable
literature, I would say.

739
00:56:09,587 --> 00:56:10,838
Awesome.

740
00:56:10,838 --> 00:56:11,979
Yeah, but it's beautiful.

741
00:56:11,979 --> 00:56:13,300
It's a really good book.

742
00:56:13,781 --> 00:56:14,501
Thank you, Joel.

743
00:56:14,501 --> 00:56:16,203
I love all of those tips.

744
00:56:16,203 --> 00:56:20,106
The last one for you is what does it mean to live a meaningful life?

745
00:56:21,678 --> 00:56:28,338
To live a meaningful life to me is to create meaning for the world, for other people.

746
00:56:28,338 --> 00:56:32,398
So for me, I find meaning in creating meaning.

747
00:56:33,358 --> 00:56:41,218
It can be in my creative practice, the own things that I build or it can mean supporting
other people to create things that are meaningful.

748
00:56:41,938 --> 00:56:51,910
And means, I guess, through that work, adding a richness and texture that other people and
that yourself and your family can be.

749
00:56:54,710 --> 00:56:55,651
It's beautiful.

750
00:56:55,651 --> 00:56:56,461
Thank you, Joel.

751
00:56:56,461 --> 00:57:02,746
You're such a generous, creative spirit and it's been beyond a pleasure to have you here
in conversation.

752
00:57:02,746 --> 00:57:04,177
I'm so glad we made it happen.

753
00:57:04,177 --> 00:57:06,308
And to our listeners, thank you for joining us.

754
00:57:06,308 --> 00:57:08,980
my gosh, I nearly forgot to ask, where can people find you?

755
00:57:08,980 --> 00:57:09,881
Can they find you?

756
00:57:09,881 --> 00:57:12,102
Are you accessible to the world?

757
00:57:12,222 --> 00:57:12,933
Barely.

758
00:57:12,933 --> 00:57:14,984
I'm barely on social media.

759
00:57:14,984 --> 00:57:19,788
Every now and again, you're hanging on LinkedIn, I've noticed, but not as much these days.

760
00:57:19,788 --> 00:57:21,299
Not so much anymore.

761
00:57:21,299 --> 00:57:23,318
LinkedIn's to me, Mike.

762
00:57:23,318 --> 00:57:35,488
I still like it, but it's a lot of AI stuff now, think, but you can get that on LinkedIn
or I'm on Instagram or my email is just Joel at like a .vc if you want to get in touch.

763
00:57:35,628 --> 00:57:45,656
Yeah, if you hit me up on LinkedIn, leave a note because I get, I get requested a lot and
I also get to recommend people who are connected to a LinkedIn.

764
00:57:45,656 --> 00:57:48,738
That's a bit tricky.

765
00:57:48,739 --> 00:57:49,329
Yeah.

766
00:57:49,329 --> 00:57:52,686
So I try and only add people that I know or have context on.

767
00:57:52,686 --> 00:57:56,386
So we will know if that's how you've come to the future.

768
00:57:56,386 --> 00:58:03,526
And also shout out to Protostars because I think you've got another round coming up to
attract some talent in.

769
00:58:03,526 --> 00:58:05,546
We'll be opening again in a month.

770
00:58:05,546 --> 00:58:12,086
So we've got a cohort that's nearly wrapped up running at the moment and in October we
should be opening up.

771
00:58:12,086 --> 00:58:15,486
So we want to give you website and all that kind of stuff.

772
00:58:15,486 --> 00:58:19,846
So give us from Protostars, Blackbird and you'll come across us.

773
00:58:19,852 --> 00:58:20,542
Very cool.

774
00:58:20,542 --> 00:58:26,256
I will put that in the show notes because as we go live on this episode, I think you'll
also be going live.

775
00:58:26,256 --> 00:58:27,857
So let's not miss that opportunity.

776
00:58:27,857 --> 00:58:37,344
Listeners, if you've got young people in your life in particular, really with that passion
project, this is an opportunity not to be missed, get amongst it and learn about the work

777
00:58:37,344 --> 00:58:39,485
that they're doing at Blackbird.

778
00:58:39,485 --> 00:58:40,196
Very cool.

779
00:58:40,196 --> 00:58:41,576
Thanks Joel.

780
00:58:41,737 --> 00:58:42,367
Thank you, Maz.

781
00:58:42,367 --> 00:58:43,998
I really appreciate it.

782
00:58:44,179 --> 00:58:45,739
You're so welcome.

783
00:58:46,941 --> 00:58:49,186
Thanks for tuning into Classroom 5.0.

784
00:58:49,186 --> 00:58:50,707
our Neuropeak series.

785
00:58:50,707 --> 00:58:55,671
If you enjoyed today's conversation, don't forget to check out the list of resources
mentioned.

786
00:58:55,671 --> 00:58:57,792
Just click the link in the show notes below.

787
00:58:57,792 --> 00:59:07,039
And hey, if this episode resonated with you, I'd love it if you could share it with a
friend, leave a review, and make sure to follow the podcast so that you don't miss what's

788
00:59:07,039 --> 00:59:07,669
coming next.

789
00:59:07,669 --> 00:59:09,760
We've got a ripper of a lineup.

790
00:59:09,941 --> 00:59:16,165
For more on supporting your own neurodiversity journey, you can head on over to
marionepower.com.au.

791
00:59:16,165 --> 00:59:17,666
I'd love to hear from you.

792
00:59:17,666 --> 00:59:20,461
Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time.