Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
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So now let's jump in.
Welcome back to Live Free.
Ride Free.
I've got Dr.
Kate Lund.
I hope I pronounce it right.
Might be Lund, might be Lund one doesn't know with these Yeah.
Scandinavian names through the North American filter.
But she is specialist in the area of resilience and
particularly resilience parenting.
And those of you who know my story know that I've had to cultivate some of that.
And those of you who are special needs parents who are listening
to this are busy cultivating as much of that as you possibly can.
And I like the fact that the conversation is turning a little bit.
Away from just trauma, trauma informed, da, da, da, all of those things, which are
the buzzwords of up until quite recently.
And because I, I've always felt a bit like, well, yeah, you sort of can't
go around on planet Earth without getting traumatized from time to time.
It's what do you do with it?
How do you recover from it?
That's always what's of interest to me.
And so I'm very excited to have Dr.
Kate to talk to us about that.
She's the author of a book called Step Away which hopefully she'll
talk to us about and her own story.
So without further ado, Dr.
Kate, welcome to The Livery Ride Free.
Please tell us who you are, what you do, and why you do it.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Sure.
Absolutely.
Well, thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
I'm, I'm glad to be here.
This is, this is gonna be fun.
So I'm a licensed clinical psychologist.
I've been doing this work for 20 plus years, and at this point I
work primarily with adults, many of whom, most of whom are parents.
Oftentimes they also, in addition to their own struggles or challenges that they're
facing, have a, have a child facing some sort of a challenge or obstacle.
So sometimes we work concurrently.
I started out in medical psychology, pediatric medical psychology and then we
moved about 17 times for my husband's job.
And I, then we had kids of our own.
I have 18-year-old twin boys.
So I really kind of worked to keep my focus, my practice somewhat portable and
flexible so I could be available for them.
So kinda pivoted to the virtual world and away from those 80
hour work weeks in the hospital.
But I still at this point have a passion for that area.
And I'm out in the hospital, Seattle Children's Hospital several times
a month, probably more than that with my dog Wally, who is a part of
their animal assisted therapy team.
And that is a big, big piece of my passion and my work these
days that I absolutely love.
In addition to that, I write books.
I have a podcast, and that's, that's basically the, the
long and the short of it.
So that's me in a nutshell.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
What's your podcast?
Dr. Kate Lund:
It's called The Optimized Mind.
And it's really is the, the main goal is to.
Access the human experience of resilience.
How have folks overcome challenge, built what they've built, bounced back
from adversity, that sort of thing?
Really from a hu through a human lens.
We interview folks across domains corporate folks, entrepreneurs
authors, parents, athletes.
So it's a really wide range.
It's a broad, broad reaching show.
Rupert Isaacson: Fascinating.
Alright, now I've read your bio, of course.
So I know about a little bit about why you do this work, but the people
listening and watching will not, you have your own special needs story.
Could you tell us that?
And then from there I want to start asking how do we cultivate resilience?
So, but let's start with you.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Sure.
Absolutely.
So, yeah, when I was four, I was diagnosed with a condition, a medical
condition called hydrocephalus.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Came on very suddenly when I was four.
And what that is, is it's the cerebral spinal fluid isn't
circulating as it should, so pressure builds up on the brain.
And so at four, I wasn't really able to articulate, oh my goodness,
I have this horrible headache.
But I was throwing up, you know, just outta the blue.
I would say my forehead hurt.
I would, you know, my eyes would be kind of all over the place.
'cause when you have pressure on your brain, your eyes don't
really work the way they should.
So it was really a hard, hard thing.
My parents were trying to figure out what was going on.
Imaging in those days was in its infancy, so it took a while for the
doctors to figure out what it was.
The good news is the condition is managed with something called a shunt, which
actually circulates the cerebral spinal fluid when it can't circulate on its own.
So I had a shunt put in.
Bad news is shunts break.
So a large portion of my childhood was spent in and outta the hospital, coming
back to school looking different, feeling different, you know, big glasses, half
ahead of shaved hair, wearing a huge helmet when I was ice skating with my
classmates, you know, when helmets were not cool back in that, in those days.
So that was, yeah, it was, it was a hard, hard time.
And I was lucky because I had a lot of great support from my parents,
my teachers, parents of friends, and they helped me to, when the shunt was
working well focus on what I could do as opposed to what I couldn't do.
And that then I think that made all the difference for me really to be
able to move forward in a way that.
Enabled me to be resilient and believe in my possibility as opposed
to just in what wasn't possible.
Rupert Isaacson: And you still have a shunt?
Dr. Kate Lund:
I do, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: That's for life, right?
Dr. Kate Lund:
That's
Rupert Isaacson: for life, yes.
And does it still break from time to time, or are they now much better and
so there's, there's more stability?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, yes and no.
They do break.
I am, I have not had, knock on wood, I should preface that with a knock
on wood, a revision since 2001.
Okay.
But it happens, you know, and it's, it's nothing is guaranteed.
So yes, there's a, there's that piece that lives in the
back of your mind at all time.
I mean, in the back of my mind at all times.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: So hydrocephalus I know some people with it but
they were diagnosed at birth.
Is it is it common for it to be a later onset like that?
Dr. Kate Lund:
It can be a later onset.
And so for me the story is that at four I was diagnosed, they didn't know why I had
the hydrocephalus because as I mentioned in imaging was its in its infancy.
Mm-hmm.
So they could figure out, you know, the, the ventricles were big.
The, the cerebral spinal fluid wasn't circulating, but the
imaging was only that good.
So it wasn't until I was 18 when the MRI with Gadolinium came out.
Gadolinium is the contrasting agent for MRIs that they were able
to see the two tumors that were actually blocking my aqueduct.
So that was another massive hurdle.
Actually.
It was you know, they, they had to go in and operate on those tumors.
The second one of those operations was very, very difficult.
And I was basically out.
For an entire year, postponed college for a year had to recover.
And there too, I was extremely fortunate.
You know, it was a long drawn out saga, but I did bounce back.
And,
Rupert Isaacson: and these tumors presumably were, were
they benign or were they
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, they were, they were considered low grade juvenile pilocytic astrocytomas.
So what that means is, in childhood, a low grade tumor is much different
than if it were diagnosed in adulthood.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kate Lund:
And yeah, I've, I was very, very fortunate and that those had been
around since I was four, and they were discovered when I was 18.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And is that what had caused the hydrocephalus, in fact?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yes.
Yes, exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: I see, I see, I see.
So the late onset was because of these tumors.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yep.
Exactly.
It's like, it's like it's possible that they were there when I
was born, but they grew okay.
Because they were growing through my childhood.
Mm-hmm.
We just didn't know I had them.
So, you know, it's, it's, yeah, it's, they were there and that's
what caused the hydrocephalus.
Rupert Isaacson: And do they have any idea what caused them?
No.
Or is that just a completely open question?
Dr. Kate Lund:
It's a completely open question.
They have no idea why that happens.
And Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And you are clear now, or are you, do you have to go
in and be checked from time to time?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, so when the tumors were diagnosed that became the main focus, right?
It was like, oh no, there are these tumors.
And so for about 25 years or so, from that point, when I was 18, they were
watched very, very, very closely.
The frequency between scans has definitely increased.
And now the focus is more on making sure the shunt is working well.
Okay.
But, but even that, even that's not all the time.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Dr. Kate Lund:
So the, the, it has definitely spread out.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So tell me what are the limitations I want to talk to what
are the non limitations and the, but what are the natural limitations, both
for a child and an adult, if you are wearing a shunt, if you are managing
this condition, what can't you do?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, so that's, that's a really interesting question.
'cause I know what I had to stay away from when I was a child.
You know fast rides at the amusement park strobe lights,
blinking lights, you know, fast.
I couldn't do gymnastics, hang upside down.
I had to be really cognizant of.
Getting hit in the head.
So I couldn't play contact sports in any way.
I had to wear a giant, you couldn't
Rupert Isaacson: get into pipes in the playground.
Dr. Kate Lund:
I could not, no.
And I, I, I, I, I shied away from those anyway, but yeah.
Even the, and giant helmet, but
Rupert Isaacson: one can't always avoid them, you know?
So is there a certain element of living in fear as a child in the playground at
that, you know, that comes with that?
Dr. Kate Lund:
I think what, what happened for me, I, I mean, I wasn't in fear about
fights 'cause that just, I wasn't gonna get into that in any way.
It was my, and
Rupert Isaacson: it wasn't a, a particularly bullying type of school?
Dr. Kate Lund:
No.
I mean, bullying, laughing from a distance, but not, not pushing
me around or anything like that.
Okay.
But I think that there was an element of fear because I was always afraid of what
was gonna happen and what could happen.
Yeah.
And all of that.
So I became absolutely very, very cautious.
Like, I, I was a very cautious child and I'm still cautious.
I mean, I, you know.
I, I, I'm not, I, I never had that kind of mm, experience of being like a carefree
child who just did whatever in the moment.
Yeah.
Because I felt like it, I was always like having to think about the ramifications.
Rupert Isaacson: And if you wanted to say, for example, go off to the
Amazon and sit in the jungle for 10 years, is that feasible for you?
Or do you need, is that, no, I must be close to good medical care where,
you know, there's that infrastructure.
Dr. Kate Lund:
I would say Yes.
I, I, I think, yeah, definitely.
I mean, I'm not, again, my disposition wouldn't take me
to the Amazon for 10 years.
But, but yeah, definitely.
That's always kind of in the back of my mind like, hmm, I can't, you know,
move to wherever just because I want to.
It has to be somewhere where there is, is good medical, solid medical care.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
And then.
In terms of your own children are the tumors completely random?
Are, is it hereditary?
Does that go in the back of your mind?
What if that develops or is that not really a worry?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, I mean, it definitely crossed our minds when, you know, the boys were
young and, and all of these things.
But, and I, and before we had the boys, you know, I, I asked those
questions, you know, is there perhaps a hereditary or genetic component to this?
And they're like, absolutely not.
No, they were pretty, pretty convinced.
And, and my boy, my boys are great.
You know, they're, they're, they knock on wood, have not had
any, any issues similar to this.
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
Then finally, pregnancy pregnancy with a shunt, any different or, or not?
Dr. Kate Lund:
It's, it's very, it's doable.
But it requires a greater, a greater, I, you know, more, more appointments,
more, but definitely doable.
Okay.
In most cases.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So all of this of course, prepares you for helping
people with the resilience because you had to learn to be resilient.
Let's just go back to your childhood.
Can you give me a point where you felt at your most un resilient, like where was the
bottom of the curve and what do you think were the tools that you found and employed
to begin to get you out of there that have now brought you to the work that you do?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, that's a really, really interesting point or interesting question.
And I think, you know, there were two kind of bottom points.
The first one I would say was when I was 10 and my shunt was
not working for a very long time.
But again, the imaging.
Wasn't what it is today.
And they couldn't see what was happening.
I actually had developed a a cyst which was gonna require a second shunt
and they couldn't see it at the time.
So I got, I was really, really sick, but I was struggling through
because the doctor said there was nothing wrong, even though Right.
I was not well.
And that was really a, a, a bottoming out in terms of being
in school, feeling like that.
But then finally they figured it out.
I got to see and meet with and, and have the cyst managed by another
doctor who I then ended up, who then ended up following me, you
know, for the rest of my childhood.
So that I think was a, a big piece my.
Kind of in, in integrating or internalizing this ability to come back
from that, you know, I had to be out of school for like three, four months.
Coming back wasn't easy.
But the truth is, I did come back and I was able to then focus on really
dial, dial in on what I could do as opposed to what I couldn't do.
And one of the things that, that had happened earlier is that, you
know, I couldn't play contact sports.
I had wanted to play ice hockey like my brother, but that was out.
Mm-hmm.
So I gravitated towards tennis and that became a big deal for me.
Like that was a huge piece of my, my identity, my life.
And I became pretty good at it.
I was never the best, but I was good, you know, and, and that was
really, that meant a lot to me.
And it, it reinforced for me what I could do as opposed to what I couldn't do.
So tennis was huge coming back from that, that point.
And then the second kind of.
This kind of dip or really low point was after the second tumor surgery where I
was really, really, it was a very, very difficult year with many complications and
many questions and all of these things.
And I was able to come back from that.
And riding my bike helped me there.
And I, I I, my dad gave me a bike to help me recover like 11 months
after the whole saga started.
And I was able to start college that following year and brought my bike
with me and use that bike as a way of managing through all the challenges.
And that became a central piece of my identity.
So I think all of those things helped me focus on what was possible and really.
Started my path of like, oh, okay, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be a psychologist,
you know, I'm gonna help people to move through and beyond challenges,
and I'm gonna, you know, that kind of all started to crystallize in college
and wasn't a linear path from there, but it was the beginning of, okay, this
is, this is actually what I'm gonna do.
Rupert Isaacson: So your parents must have really gone through it.
Did you observe that at the time and did that make you interested
even on a subconscious level?
Do you think because you, you, you now kind of specialize to some
degree in resilience, parenting, your parents must have had to
develop a fair bit of resilience.
They must have been worried sick the whole time.
It's, but it's interesting to me that you made that leap away from
yourself more towards parenting.
Why is that?
And.
Yeah, tell us a bit about your work with resilience parenting, because
I, as someone who has to live that somewhat daily that is of interest to me.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, absolutely.
And you're right.
I mean, my parents, it was, it was not easy for them, particularly in those,
well in any of the years, but in those early years when the imaging wasn't, and
you know, up to snuff or whatever, what it is today, and kind of like, well,
we don't know what's wrong, but yet they knew something was really wrong.
So that was very, very hard and my parents really helped me to focus on what I could
do as opposed to what I couldn't do.
They definitely struggled.
They were definitely very anxious and sometimes that impacted me
a little bit, like, you know, the whole like anxious piece.
But they did the very best they could and they were really
there every step of the way.
And I really do believe were catalysts for me too.
Kind of not see myself as someone who could, couldn't do things, but rather
someone who could despite the challenges.
And so that was, that was a, a big deal.
And yeah, maybe, maybe it was a subconscious thing.
My kind of gravitation towards the, the resilient parenting piece.
I think another reason that resilient parenting has become
kind of a primary focus is because of my own journey as a parent.
And you know, my boys are 18 and so there's been that piece of it.
So my, my new book, step Away, the Keys to Resilient Parenting is written
through three lenses, the lens of my early experiences, and those of my
parents mentioned at the beginning.
My 20 years as a psychologist working with a lot of parents who are
struggling with some, some situations, some challenge, medical challenge
or otherwise with their child.
I did my early training, my early, you know, many years of training
in pediatric medical settings.
Working a lot with parents in addition to the kids.
And then the third lens is my life as a parent.
So I think there's, there's a lot that brings me to this point, but
definitely I think some on, on some level subconsciously and consciously related
to watching my parents struggle with what they struggled in relation to my issues.
Medically,
Rupert Isaacson: tell us about your journey as a parent.
How, what has happened?
Dr. Kate Lund:
My, my journey as a parent has been awesome.
Not without, not without its ups and downs, whatever, but you know, I.
Our boys were, were born in 2007 and no sooner had we gotten them home
from the hospital, my husband's job was transferred to another city.
So
Rupert Isaacson: what does your husband do?
Dr. Kate Lund:
He is in sales and marketing.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah.
So getting drafted to different places.
Yep,
Dr. Kate Lund:
yep.
Getting drafted to different places within this, the same or different companies.
And so there was a lot of that early on.
So there was a lot of balance, you know, striking balances, but, but I
entered parenthood thinking, no problem.
I can, I can do it all.
You know, I'm gonna have a robust career.
I'm gonna be the parent who's present available, shows up.
I'm gonna focus on my fitness, I'm gonna have my friends.
It's gonna be great.
No sooner had.
The boy's been born that I figured, I've learned that that was not reality.
So there is no perfect balance.
There is no perfect.
It's, it's the it's the balance that isn't right.
You have to just do the best you can and strike a balance that
works for you in the moment and in the, in the general situation.
And that's what I learned.
Took a while, but I learned it.
And that's really what I, what I work with, with folks on as well.
There's no one size fits all.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Dr. Kate Lund:
And so the first, you know, several years I kind of put my career a little bit to
the side so I could be present available.
And I was very fortunate to be able to do that.
And the boys, the boys and I had a good time as, as, as we were
exhausted, as we were tired, as I caught many kid germs along the way.
Aside from that, we, we had a good time.
You know, I tried to.
To do things with them.
I wasn't, I wasn't reading parenting books.
I was just doing the best I could, you know, I was popping them in their
stroller and going out and walking and they knew me by name at Starbucks 'cause
I was drinking way too much of that.
But, you know, it was, it was the fact of really trying our best to
do the best we could in the moment.
And, and sure I didn't do everything perfectly and I don't think
anyone does everything perfectly, but I did the best they could.
My husband did the best he could, even though he was gone like six days a week.
But he did the best he could.
And you know, then when the boys were, Hmm, just about to turn
four, we took a cross country road trip to our new home in Seattle.
And I actually wrote a book about it narrated by my dog at the time and.
Super fun, super fun trip, and we've been here ever since, you know, and
striking the balance I've plugged my career in, I've built my career,
but still tried to be around as much as as possible for the boys.
And you know, probably will start a bit of a new chapter when they
go off to college here soon.
So, you know, it's, it's,
Rupert Isaacson: but they haven't had a particular special needs
history or anything like that.
It's just been more the challenges that come with being a busy working mom.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah.
Well, you know, they've had, they've had things, there've been bumps in the road,
you know, one of them had strabismus
Rupert Isaacson: What is that?
Dr. Kate Lund:
And it's when the eyes don't track properly.
Mm-hmm.
So there was surgery for that early on, but we are very, very fortunate
that that panned out in a positive way.
But yeah, no, it's, it's been.
From a medical perspective, knock on wood, again, to a typical childhood for them.
Rupert Isaacson: Good.
Okay.
So you describe your own journey into resilience from those points of despair,
and they must have been points of despair.
Mm-hmm.
What's, what stands out to me is it's about movement.
So one thing is tennis, another thing there is riding the bike.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about movement and resilience.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, that's such a great question.
And for me it's been integral.
It's been, been everything.
And so when I was younger, yes, it was tennis and being able to be out
there on the court with the other kids and form relationships in that.
Hmm.
And I was never, never the best.
I was, you know.
The runner up in many tournaments, but I really if ever won the tournaments.
Mm-hmm.
And that was okay as long as I was out there playing and I was doing
it from the inside out, moving, being out there on the court.
'cause I loved it.
Same with biking.
I mentioned the bike my dad gave me when I was recovering from the brain
tumor surgeries and started riding that.
I rode it every single day, I would say in college.
I rode it so much.
And the summer I graduated, I rode my bike from Seattle to Denver with
a group called Cycl Ascending Hunger.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Dr. Kate Lund:
And we were, we were talking about the importance of proper nutrition
and medical care for kids along the way you know, in the various towns
that we were stopping in and such.
And that was a huge experience for me because it was five
years after the massive.
Medical event with the, the brain surgeries that summer.
And it, it meant everything to me to be able to be out
there moving, doing that ride.
And I, I was stubborn.
I rode every single mile, even though I was last, every single day, even
though I, I was in fine shape, but I just wasn't, you know, I wasn't up
to the speed and the power that these other folks on my, on my trip were.
But I was okay.
I, I came in, you know, I, I was out there because I truly wanted to be there.
Didn't matter to me if I came in last.
I just wanted to be out there.
So the idea of moving in that way yeah, has been a huge piece of my identity.
And will continue to be, I mean, I'm doing it today these
Rupert Isaacson: days.
Are you familiar much with the neuroscience of, of movement?
You know, so when, for example, my son became verbal
in the saddle in front of me.
I noticed almost immediately that the rhythm that the horse was in made a
massive difference between how much or how little communication I got.
And then I started recreating those rhythms.
They're sort of soft dancey rhythms in, in horsey terms, you call
it, collected a collected rhythm.
And I thought, well, if, if this is working on the horse, so well,
what about doing that off the horse?
Right?
So I emulated it with my shoulders.
I emulated it on trampolines, I emulated it with swings, I emulated it with
yoga balls, anything I could think of.
And sure enough the results were pretty similar.
And this also was born out with other kids who we would then invite, you
know, to the, to the ranch to have play dates and they would respond to
these rhythms on the horse and these particular ways of balancing and moving.
So of course, at a certain point I, became curious and was like, well,
I need to know why this is working.
So I went to talk to neuroscientists and said, can you please explain?
And the two things it really seemed to come down to was that if you rock
your hips and rhythm, your body will produce the hormone oxytocin, which
is not just a feel-good hormone that calms your over oversensitive nervous
system, which of course, a lot of people say in your condition or in
the condition of my son would've had.
Which creates a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety, stress hormone,
cortisol, which blocks learning.
So things can present as a sort of intellectual disability when they're not.
It's like the intellects actually fine, it's just kind of behind a locked door.
But then equally that same hormone is the hormone of communication.
And then when somebody moves and problem solves, riding a horse,
playing, playing tennis, riding a bike, dancing the brain produces, a protein.
And that protein is called BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic factor.
And that is neuroplasticity.
That is the building block, the essential Lego piece, you
know, of, of neuroplasticity that becomes those neurons.
And so when that was explained, I was like, oh, well, okay, I guess
we could replicate this then.
And so we, we did.
And it sounds like to some degree that was what was going on for you.
Did you, at a certain point when things were at their worst for you feel that you
were in some kind of brain fog and did you feel, did you notice how movement,
particularly moving and problem solving and hard exercise and that sort of
thing, which you've described, did you notice a coming out of the brain fog?
Sort of, can you just talk, describe that process was, and, and if
not, then what was the process?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, it's really, really interesting and I, I.
One thing is coming to mind.
It's that year I mentioned when I had the, the first tumor surgery and
then I had the second tumor surgery.
And then there was a period of time where I was really not functioning
very well in terms of my eyes were, they were in a constant state of motion
because there was something, it just, it was not good and it was related
to swelling and maybe something else, they're not quite sure what I bounced
out a bit, but when I was in that space, I couldn't read, I couldn't watch tv.
I was just kind of, I don't remember the brain fog per se, but I remember
that I was just kind of there.
I mean, I was wandering around as a whole,
Rupert Isaacson: but stuck.
Your brain couldn't do.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, I was just kind of, but what, what I did every single day and what was super
helpful for me, and I wasn't thinking about it in these terms that you just
described, but I think it fits and I think it probably is what was happening.
I would go, we had this circular driveway at my, at my parents' house.
And I would go and it was a 10th of a mile around once and I would
just walk around and around and around and that was what I did.
And I know that I felt better, obviously because we feel
better when we move, you know?
And particularly if it's kind of a piece of kind of what we need to be at our best.
But in that moment where I was far from my best, I was
actually really, really impaired.
Those walks meant everything like that was a big deal.
Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think you walked?
Do you think that your body actually was wise and new?
Listen, we need to get moving here so we can get this brain.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Neuro plasticizing.
Do, because I, I am a great believer that the body is wise.
Do you think that was what was going on?
Or, or how much of it was a conscious decision?
Were you like, I just wanna move because I feel like I need to move?
Like, what prompted you?
Dr. Kate Lund:
I think there was a bit of both.
Because I've always been someone who has thrived in movement.
You know, I've always wanted to be in motion in some way, but in those
moments when it would've been very easy to just sit because I wasn't really,
I, I was, I was not in good shape.
I think, yeah, I think my body probably knew.
I, I think it was a combination, but for whatever, I'm, I'm grateful that, that
my body was giving me those signals.
And I also, I knew enough myself to know that, that it was gonna help
me on some level, you know, and put,
Rupert Isaacson: so tell me now about the work you do and the book
that you've written, and how much do you integrate movement into that?
And if so, what sorts of movement and why, and how do you tackle this
with parents who are perhaps feeling defeated and crushed and exhausted,
perhaps not wanting to move, et cetera.
You know, talk us through your practice.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, got it.
So yeah, so the, the book Step Away, the Keys to Resilient Parenting
definitely integrates movement
Rupert Isaacson: step away.
I guess you have to move to step away, right?
Yeah,
Dr. Kate Lund:
yeah, yeah.
We're actually, we're stepping away so that we can step in more robustly,
but yeah, and you know, the first piece is managing our stress response.
Finding a way to show up as level as possible every day, because if
we're starting the day up here.
A stressor hits and boom, we shut, we escalate to the point of shutdown
and that's not gonna gonna help us.
And so, you know, I teach that the importance of finding that that modulated
space in terms of our stress response, and that can either be through a mini
meditation technique that I teach, derived from a technique developed
by a physician in Boston in the 1970s called the relaxation response.
So that's one, one thing to keep us level coming up with a word or
a phrase that we find soothing in one, in some way, and then breathing
and practicing that to the point of integration so we can show up level.
And then it's layering on the other tools and strategies, one
of which is definitely movement.
Finding a way to move each and every day, whatever that looks like for you.
Because the big idea in this book, and in really everything I teach,
is that we want folks to thrive within their own unique context.
There's no one size fits all in any of this.
And so some folks might be, oh yeah, I've got the movement thing covered.
You know, I'm on the Peloton every morning.
But some clients might say, well, I don't really have time to move.
I haven't exercised in 10 years.
I don't know what to do.
I don't know how to start.
So those are two very different, you know, starting places for integrating
movement in a, in a meaningful way.
So really it's about those small steps forward.
We really wanna avoid having that A to Z mentality.
And if we don't succeed in that, eh, then why try?
So it's, it's helping folks to.
Notice and appreciate the small steps that they're taking to build a foundation
of resilience, a resilient lifestyle that helps them optimize within their
own unique context, if that makes sense.
Rupert Isaacson: It does.
Tell me about this chat from Boston and his relaxation technique,
and why did you choose that?
What, what, why do you feel that that is so effective?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, so it's Herbert Benson's technique.
Herbert Benson is unfortunately he's no longer alive, but he's a
physician in Boston and developed this technique in the 1970s before
meditation, mindfulness, and the name
Rupert Isaacson: again?
Dr. Kate Lund:
The relaxation response.
Rupert Isaacson: The relaxation response.
Okay.
Dr. Kate Lund:
By Herbert Benson.
Rupert Isaacson: And why do you hone in on this given that we live in an age of
mindfulness and other things like that?
Why, why that?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah.
Well because it's, it's this technique is the cornerstone of
the MINDBODY medicine program at Mass General Hospital in Boston.
And that's where I did in addition to Shriners Hospital for Children in
Boston, a lot of my early training,
Rupert Isaacson: okay,
Dr. Kate Lund:
so I had a lot of exposure to this technique, the research
around this technique.
So, you know, there are many ways to get there.
It's just this technique is so efficient and effective and simple.
That, that's why I gravitated towards it.
Tell,
Rupert Isaacson: tell us, how does one do it?
What's the 1, 2, 3.
Dr. Kate Lund:
So super easy, you come up with a word or a phrase that
you find soothing in some way.
You breathe,
Rupert Isaacson: like cheers, for example.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah.
Whatever.
Whatever, whatever you, whatever's gonna be soothing.
Okay.
You know, you don't want it to be complicated and
you breathe and you do too.
Rupert Isaacson: How do you breathe?
Dr. Kate Lund:
You breathe as you would normally breathe.
You don't have to do anything.
And that's why I like it.
You don't have to be thinking about how you're breathing.
You're just breathing.
Rupert Isaacson: So let's try it now.
Yeah.
So I like horses for example.
So if, if I'm feeling stressed and I think about horses, that's gonna be a
little bit less stress than it would be if I didn't think about horses.
So, would I say horses?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And then what would I do?
Dr. Kate Lund:
You would just sit here.
Most people close their eyes.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
I'm gonna do it with you,
Dr. Kate Lund:
okay?
Okay?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Okay.
Now think of your word and just put that on slow, repeat and breathe
Rupert Isaacson: forces.
Horses
Dr. Kate Lund:
and it's generally most effective in your mind.
The words.
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
I'm just,
Dr. Kate Lund:
oh, yeah.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Giving the running commentary.
Okay.
So, oh,
Dr. Kate Lund:
got it.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Let's assume I'm talking about horses here.
Thinking horses.
Okay.
This actually is working.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah.
And so that's the thing, right?
And so
Rupert Isaacson: is it that simple?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, it is.
It really is.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, interesting.
Dr. Kate Lund:
And, and the cool thing is you the more you practice for that five minutes in
the morning, five minutes in the evening, this becomes somewhat of your baseline.
You're integrating it into your baseline and it, so it's like a
Rupert Isaacson: mantra.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Effectively.
Rupert Isaacson: It's
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yes.
With, with breath attached.
And the cool thing is, and this works for a lot of, you
know, most all of my clients.
Also the younger athletes that I work with, they can
keep it in their back pocket.
And if they're entering into a stressful situation, a stressful medical
appointment, a stressful conversation, a stressful sporting event, whatever,
can kind of pull this out and do it for a minute or so to kind of level
themselves before moving into that space.
Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm
an autism dad and we have a whole career before this podcast in helping
people with neurodivergence, either who are professionals in the field.
Are you a therapist?
Are you a caregiver?
Are you a parent?
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?
When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004,
I really didn't know what to do.
So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.
Temple Grandin.
And she told me what to do.
And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years.
That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped
countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal.
Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings.
If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed
approach, it's called Movement Method.
You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply.
It's almost laughably simple.
The important thing is to begin.
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.
Grandin and see what results can follow.
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.
com Sign up as a gold member.
Take the online movement method course.
It's in 40 countries.
Let us know how it goes for you.
We really want to know.
We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there
live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens.
Absolutely.
I mean, some people might say, oh, money put me on, you know, which they say, you
know, has all these, but I, you know, it is interesting that affirmations and
mantras, I remember when I was growing up and despite the fact that I have long hair
I'm not much of a hippie and, but I grew up very much in the seventies in England
where a, it was a lot of hippie dump.
Actually, it's wrong.
I'm, I'm a card carrying hippie, but you know what I mean?
I'm, I, I, I wasn't drawn to pop psychology or pop
spirituality much, and so.
We, one was brought up to dismiss that a little bit and be much more stoic.
But there is no question that people have found mantras and affirmations
really efficacious over millennia.
Some people call it prayer, you know but I'd rather like the idea that instead
of learning some word in Sanskrit or an affirmation that perhaps you don't
fully believe because you know, if, if you are like loathing yourself
or something, or in deep despair, if you say, well, I, I love myself.
I actually do believe that if you say that enough, it actually does kick in.
'cause I've been in situations where I've loathed myself and
people have said, oh, try these.
Affirmations I like.
So your affirmations, you stick those, you know where you can imagine.
But then I actually, of course had to try them, you know, and
of course they actually worked.
And then I realized, oh, I see actually I, I, I am a lot more
plastic than I thought I was.
But I like the idea of, of putting it in a language like that,
that doesn't necessarily trigger somebody's, well, I'm not that sort
of spiritual person type response.
So we don't have to get over that obstacle and that hurdle in order
to just find something effective.
Okay, so there I am, I'm breathing, I'm thinking about horses and
I'm, I'm feeling a bit better.
What's my next step toward?
Dr. Kate Lund:
So it depends.
Rupert Isaacson: Resilience,
Dr. Kate Lund:
it, it, it depends.
But we wanna start integrating, you know, a little bit of joy,
happiness, engaging in something that brings you that moment of.
Levity of something beyond the challenge or the difficult situation that you're
facing, or just the stress and overwhelm that you are experiencing, right?
And that's a powerful, powerful thing because again, super simple, right?
But so important because oftentimes challenge or not just in the context
scope of our lives, we're moving so fast that we forget to laugh, we
forget to find the joy in the small things, and it's really important.
So give us an
Rupert Isaacson: example.
If someone's really low, I mean, one could get on Google and look up dad jokes.
One could in my case, go swing my leg over a pony, but then perhaps I'm far from
where the ponies are, so I can't do that.
So what are the small, accessible joys that you feel you would
normally suggest to people?
Dr. Kate Lund:
So, you know, it can be as simple as turning on your favorite song.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Dr. Kate Lund:
It can be as simple as going outside and sitting on the front stoop with
your favorite hot cup of coffee or tea.
It could be going into your garden and looking at a beautiful flower.
You know, listening to the birds sing.
Anything that's going to shift you to, oh, that's, you know, a wonderful sound
or a pretty flower, something like that.
Just those small moments.
And then we can build from there.
We can build into, Hmm, wow.
I love to draw.
Maybe I'll call my friend and have a conversation.
You know, all of these things, if we think about doing them in an intentional way.
It really does bring a moment of respite, joy, that sort of thing,
into those points where we're feeling so bogged down and so overwhelmed.
And I'm not trying to negate the challenges here because those are real,
but it's really trying to take those intentional steps that are gonna give us
at least a moment away from that space
Rupert Isaacson: to truth.
What do you do when people are in that state of despair and
apathy which we know can overtake.
And then also with people who say, well, I don't, I dunno what I
like, I I don't know what I want.
I'm, I'm quite lucky, like, you know, I know I like ponies, so even
thinking about them is going to make me feel better to some degree.
But not everyone, you know, I've encountered this.
Not everyone actually does have that passion or, or know what their passion is.
Some people might have forgotten, pushed it away.
Other people, as you know, are so overwhelmed, so despairing
that they fall into that apathy.
So.
Speak to that.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And that's a great point because it's true, right?
You could be either so deep in the apathy or you know, really be
struggling with what those things are.
So that's where, you know, that authentic human connection between me in my role
as therapist or coach and client comes in and really taking the time to understand
their experience, who they are, where they're coming from, where that the
depth of that apathy is coming from.
And then slowly over time helping them to, through conversation, through perhaps
journaling or some personal exploration on some, some level kind of start to
uncover, well, what are some things that maybe made me happy in the past?
What are some things that, you know, I could envision.
Re-engaging in, even if in a tiny, tiny way, because none of this,
there's no on button for any of this.
It's a process and there's no one way to do it.
But it's slowly over time, building a sense of awareness of what those
things are or were in the past.
That's important to help people get in touch with.
And that happens through that authentic human connection between
therapist, coach, and client.
Rupert Isaacson: You, you talked about maybe going out into the
garden and looking at a flower or listening to the bird song.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: When I'm talking to therapists, unless they're coming
from a particular angle, what often surprises me is how little in the
clinical setting they talk about nature.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: You did just talk about nature, but I remember myself when I
was going through some talk therapy and sitting in this office with the therapist
and looking, hating it no movement.
A room that well congenial enough was a room and the, you know, challenging
frontal gaze of the therapist, you know, sparking my cortisol my stress.
And I remember sort of looking out the window at the trees and thinking, gosh,
if we were only walking out there under those, I would be feeling so much better.
I'd be so much more receptive.
And after, funnily enough, after a few sessions, I said to the therapist,
could we not do this thing out there?
And he came up with like a bazillion reasons why that would not be possible.
And I said, look, you know, I actually know something about the brain.
It's, it's.
My job to, doesn't mean my brain is necessarily working very
well, but I, I I do know sort of what it, what its needs are.
Would you indulge me and then find, you know, still resisting?
So I said, look, I'll pay you an extra hour, you know, that
will cover the 10 minutes.
It will take us to go down the stairs to go out there, blah,
blah, and then to come back up.
How about that?
And with great reluctance, the therapist finally conceded, but
wouldn't do it more than another time.
And I realized that actually I needed then to find somebody
who would take me into nature.
So I did.
But in the clinical setting, it's so not there.
And yet that's our habitat.
So how can we find wellbeing?
Without that.
And how do you incorporate that?
Because I'm sure that when you are going into clinical settings,
there are some constraints.
How do you incorporate movement and nature?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a hard question, like when you can't
get out of the clinical setting.
Mm-hmm.
Like, for example, with this therapist who is reluctant to,
and, and sometimes there are, yeah.
Constraints given the location of an office or that sort of thing.
I personally do most of my work, all of my work actually right now virtually.
So it's a question of what is available to the client, you know, where they
are, you know, whether it's stepping out into the garden or, you know,
so coming up with a plan as to what the possibilities are for them.
But another, another space where I see this actually is when I'm working out at
the Children's hospital with my dog you know, they have, I mean, very clinical
setting inside the hospital obviously, but when a child is well enough to
walk a little bit or perhaps they can go outside to the hospital garden in a
wheelchair or something along those lines, those moments are very, very powerful.
So, yeah, it's, mm, adapting with flexibility.
Within the context of whatever, whatever that clinical setting is, to try to
find options and opportunities and to encourage those if it's not top
of mind for the patient or client.
But yeah, there are those, those moments where perhaps it's less feasible.
And then, you know, it's certainly not the same thing, but if nature, if a nature
scene can be soothing to some, someone we can work with visualization around
helping folks to engage through these images that they create in their mind.
So that's, that's another opportunity.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
I'm glad.
Well, I'm glad you bring that up because yeah, what we know that.
Both negatively and positively, the mind will respond to the stimuli that don't
necessarily have to be real, right?
So the co the amygdala fight, flight freeze will re respond to
a threat that's imagined almost as strongly as a threat that's real.
But similarly, you know, in our work sometimes with what we call
movement method, maybe we're working in schools and we'll look at a very
sterile classroom and say, you need to bring a bunch of plants in here.
You know, and then the, sometimes the school administration will
say, well, here's a bazillion reasons why we can't do that.
And usually it'll come down to like fire hazard and allergies and we,
they'll die 'cause we can't water them.
And so we thought, oh gosh, what are we gonna do about that?
And we realized, oh, well then we just put fake plants in there.
And because the brain, when you see the fake plants, basically responds the same.
And we'll put pictures of nature on the wall and, and, and and we'll.
And so I like the idea that you will also give people visualizations
of nature because I, it would, it would seem that those
play upon the mind in the same way largely that the real thing does.
Do you get people who are so far removed from that, that they'll try to reject it?
And if so, how do you help them with that?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah.
You know, absolutely.
You know, folks might not have experienced sort of the soothing
impact of being out in nature or, you know, the, the, the positives around
that, or perhaps it just hasn't been part of their life and experience so.
What we can do is, you know, suggest, encourage, and try to
build on that through that authentic connection right in mm-hmm.
In the work that we're doing.
But at the end of the day, we can't force it.
No.
But by building an awareness of the possibilities of the positive impact over
time, you know, sometimes folks are able to, you know, shift gears and see things a
little bit differently and then are often pleasantly surprised by the impact of
engaging in that way, that kind of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, a little suggestion can go a long way.
It's true.
And, and, and what people might resist at first, perhaps after they go away and
have a bit of a think even, or not even a think, just their subconscious gets going.
You mentioned you use your dog, you bring your dog into these clinical settings.
So for me, that is nature, right?
The animal is automatically nature.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
So by bringing a dog into a sterile hospital walk, you have effect, you
brought in the forest, you know?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: What gave you that idea and Yeah.
How did you develop it?
Yeah,
Dr. Kate Lund:
yeah, yeah.
So you're right.
I mean, it's incredibly powerful.
It's, it's, it's awesome.
It's, it's really, really meaningful to me as well.
And I had always wanted to train a dog that I had for this purpose.
And I think it goes way back to my early childhood when I would sit with
my dog, peanut for hours, hours as I was, you know, maybe recovering
from a shunt revision or, oh.
Or So your dog
Rupert Isaacson: had a big part of your recovery.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yes, abs a hundred percent.
And so that I think is where the idea first came.
You know, I was really, I mean obviously it was subconscious at that point,
you know, when I was four I wasn't thinking, oh, I'm gonna train my dog
to go to the hospital to visit kids.
But that's really where the idea first formed, I'm sure of it.
Because I would sit for hours with her and she would really be
a primary support in helping me through some very difficult moments.
So there was, so there was that.
And then, you know, when we got Wally, who is my certified therapy dog to go out
and work on this, on this animal assisted team, he, his disposition just felt right.
And I also had an opportunity arise, right.
When we got him to join a group of join a group where we were
starting to do the basic obedience for this exact kind of work.
And so I joined them and it was just, it was awesome.
Like he, he took to it, you know, got all the obedience down.
We worked in assisted living facilities for a year because he
had to be two before he was ready to be eligible for children's.
And it just evolved from there.
And it's really, if not the most, one of the most meaningful things I do right now.
I love my work with him out at the hospital.
It's, it's so powerful to see a child who's struggling with
whatever it might be, light up when they see the dog walk in.
Or the child who's struggling with physical therapy at the end of a hall
and really is, is not, not wanting to engage and not physically believing.
They're able to engage, but then pointing at Wally and saying, I wanna pet the dog.
And
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Dr. Kate Lund:
We stay at the other end of the hall and the child does it, you
know, they, they, they walk down the hall so that they can pet the dog.
It's, it's so they can pet wally.
It's it's really powerful stuff and it's, it's,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, I mean that sort of motivation and of course
the moment you, you are caressing another mammal your pet, you are of
course getting oxytocin, you know?
Yeah.
We know this, you know but it's, and that's, you know, obviously one of
the most healthful hormones we can have coursing through our bodies.
Dr. Kate Lund:
A hundred percent.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting.
Where did you discover, I mean obviously you had your own experience
with this when you were a kid, but when did you discover the sort of more
formalized world of animal assisted.
Therapies and hey, how did you get involved in that?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, it's a great question.
You know, so I did all of my early training as a psychologist out in
hospitals in Boston some of the bigger hospitals, mass General Shriners Hospital
for Children, Beth Israel Deaconess, and all of those places had, it was
much, it was almost 20 years ago now.
So animal assisted therapy wasn't quite.
As prominent and as prevalent as it is today.
But it was there, it was around.
And so I'd always kind of observe and watch and Hmm, that's so cool.
You know, and I would see the impact that the dogs were having
for patients and, and such.
So I think you know, I started learning about it at that point.
And then, you know, we moved a lot with my husband's job and I, it, the
timing just wasn't quite right for me to get actively involved until about
four years ago when we got Wally.
And I had the time, I had the puppy and I had the strong desire to make this real.
So that's kind of how that happens.
Rupert Isaacson: Do have you developed it since then?
Are you part of any kind of group and when you're talking to parents
that are looking for resilience, do you guide them towards animals?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, you know.
I don't know if I really guide them towards animals, but, well,
actually, first, to answer your first question, I, I am part of a
group a certification organization called a TD American Therapy Dogs.
Okay.
And they certify us.
They're many groups out there, but that's the one that
certifies for, that certifies me.
And so there's a whole group of us here in Seattle that's part of that organization.
So that piece is pretty fun.
And we'll go out and do things together in schools and stuff like that.
But you know, I don't necessarily direct folks clients outside of the
hospital setting towards animals, but most of my clients have animals.
And we do talk about the soothing, kind of relation aspect of the
relationship and that sort of thing.
But I will tell you that when I'm out in the hospital with Wally.
You know, if a child is not really up for a visit or in a procedure,
but the parent is there, I mean, they always run out into the hall to
hang out with Wally for a little bit.
I mean, so it's very, very powerful what he's bringing to
them in addition to the, the kids.
Rupert Isaacson: Why do animals make us more resilient?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, you know, I think it's because honestly, they're in the moment.
They're showing up unconditionally.
They're there for you and they're not thinking about what's just
happened or what's gonna happen.
They're in it, you know, and they're so well able to, I believe, pick
up on, what somebody's emotional condition is in the moment.
You know, I know that I feel it with, with Wally and me, you know, if I'm,
you know, stressed or struggling with something on a given day, you know,
he'll come up and, you know, well maybe put his head on my, on my on my lap.
But like, if I am, you know, in a different space, you know,
he'll, he'll respond differently.
And I see he'll respond differently depending on what's happening for kids.
He's visiting in the hospital too.
If he notices that a kid is really withdrawn or struggling with something,
he'll literally come in and pop his head on their knee, for example.
Whereas if a kid is, you know, smiling and saying, come here, come here.
You know, he'll go in a bit more robustly.
He'll offer them his paw.
You know, it's just these, these, these subtle, subtle differences,
subtle shifts in how he's showing up.
But the, the fact is, the bottom line is animals always show up.
And I really do think that they're able to, to discern
what we need in given moments.
And they're not bogged down by like the baggage of what's happened or the
fear and worry about what's coming.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that we, on a, on a subconscious level, just take that
on so that by seeing the animal constantly showing up, it allows us to show up?
It teaches us or shows us how to show up?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Oh, I think so.
Yes.
I think for sure, particularly in those moments.
And then if we're able to take that a step further and really recognize
what's happening, then that can be a really powerful reminder to us.
To show up even when the animal isn't present, if that makes sense.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely.
No, I do.
And I, you know, our, our minds are so open to metaphor.
Metaphor is the, is the human thing really, isn't it?
The storytelling ape.
I think it's worth considering this thing that yeah, animals sort of
lead by example, but that we do actually follow those examples.
And I, I guess our, our language is sort of peppered with metaphors and sayings
of one kind or another adjectives, you know, that, that describe being like
this animal or being like that animal.
And sometimes it's negative, you know, you dirty pig or whatever you swine.
But although actually pigs are so charming, it's, it's always
struck me as an odd one, that one.
But normally we use animal stuff quite positively.
It seems.
Okay, so you, let's just go back to your book and your, and your practice.
You, you give people these relaxation techniques to get
them to a sort of calm baseline.
Mm-hmm.
You, you give them the visualizations some of which involve nature.
You have your own practice of course, which does involve animal assisted
going through your book Now, what's the next stage in resilience, parenting?
Here I am, you know, feeling un resilient in my parenting moment.
And sometimes I still do, you know, despite the fact that my son's doing
really well, and so I'm not always feeling resilient, you know, so of
Dr. Kate Lund:
course
Rupert Isaacson: what's, what's, what's the next stage?
Dr. Kate Lund:
And that's, and that's a great point that you mentioned, you
know, 'cause 'cause it's true.
'cause we're not always feeling resilient, even if we're building, you know?
Yeah.
These skills into our life and experience on a foundational level, they're
gonna be moments when we don't feel.
Resilient.
Rupert Isaacson: Sometimes
Dr. Kate Lund:
more than
Rupert Isaacson: moments.
Yes.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, exactly.
Exactly.
Yes.
Sometimes more than moments.
And trust me, I, I, I get this.
Yeah.
And, and so, you know, it's, it's a question of really
building these things in.
So you mentioned some of the, some of the key ones.
You know, the, the nature piece, the visualizations, the
managing our stress response.
You know, we're encouraging folks to have some sort of social support.
We know the power of social support in building our resilience,
our resilient lifestyle.
You know, whether that looks like can, because you see the thing is with
social connection, we can be moving.
Through life so fast, we can be bogged down.
We can be overwhelmed that we just think, Hmm, it's not important.
I don't have time.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Really it is important to intentionally try to carve out that time, make
some sort of connection as often as possible to have that, that
context of social support in place.
You know, whether it's a phone call to an old friend or if it's a coffee
at the local coffee shop with an acquaintance or a friend, whether it's
joining a group, a parent parenting group related to a challenge that you're
having or a hobby or something fun.
You know, I've got a group of friends who gets together on Sunday
mornings and I'm often not able to join, but to go hiking or walking
their parents from the same school.
You know, it's that kind of a thing just to kind of have that connection.
However you're gonna get in touch with it is really powerful in
terms of normalizing the fact that, yeah, life isn't easy necessarily.
Things get hard, and that's okay.
And here's what helped me.
And not that there's a one size fits all, but having ideas and thoughts around it.
So, so social support, social connection is a really important piece of, of
what we talk about in here as well.
Rupert Isaacson: If you made it this far into the podcast, then I'm
guessing you're somebody that, like me, loves to read books about not
just how people have achieved self actualization, but particularly
about the relationship with nature.
Spirituality, life, the universe, and everything.
And I'd like to draw your attention to my books.
If you would like to read the story of how we even arrived here, perhaps
you'd like to check out the two New York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy
and The Long Ride Home, and come on an adventure with us and see what engendered,
what started Live Free Ride Free.
And before we go back to the podcast, also check out The Healing
Land, which tells the story of.
My years spent in the Kalahari with the Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people
there, and all that they taught me, and mentored me in, and all that I learned.
Come on that adventure with me.
Now let's talk about crisis.
So there are times when things become so pressing that or
everything goes outta the window.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And one hasn't the bandwidth for anything
other than straight up survival.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: When people are in that kind of mode.
Again, what are your recommendations?
Dr. Kate Lund:
We wanna make sure that they understand when it's necessary to elicit professional
support, you know, or, you know, call 9 1 1 or go to a local emergency room
if we're in that level of crisis.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Dr. Kate Lund:
But if it's, if it's not at that point, but rather a point where folks
are so bogged down, so overwhelmed that there's really not any bandwidth
for anything else, it's a question of doing the best they can in those
moments to move forward or just be as best they can without, without that
added stress of, well, I should be doing this, I have to be doing that.
Sometimes we just need to be, so there's that.
Not putting that external pressure on them, you know, internal pressure
or going for, like, I have to do more if, if in that moment they just can't.
But I wanna, you know, make sure that folks are aware that, you know, there
are those moments where they should, you know, go to a local emergency room
or call 9 1 1, that kind of thing.
But I don't know, does that answer the, the question?
Because there are,
Rupert Isaacson: well, yeah, I'm, I'm just wondering if whe because you know,
when, when once amygdala is really activated while it's full of cortisol
or it's not capable of rational thought.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And you can be highly intelligent, highly educated.
Yeah.
And behave like an absolute idiot because the neurotoxins in your
brain with the cortisol are simply preventing you from reasoning.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you have
things that help in that mode?
To sort of bring one back to oneself so that one can actually figure one one's
way through and get out of reaction.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, you know, it's, it's managing the stress response on a consistent basis that
we uhhuh come back to in those moments.
That really is kind of leveling out.
But, you know, if somebody is in a space where, you know, they're, they're so
far escalated, so escalated to the point of shutdown, you know, the, the reality
is it's gonna take a little bit more to get back to that modulated space.
But that's the, that's the first go-to, to get back to that modulated space.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
If, if you yourself are driven to the wall, I'm sure it's happens occasionally.
What's your.
Go to.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, that's a great a great, great question.
And it's true, you know, sometimes I am bogged down and driven to the wall.
So it depends.
Sometimes it's getting out for a long walk.
Sometimes it's, don't move
Rupert Isaacson: it again,
Dr. Kate Lund:
nature again.
Yep, yep.
Nature movement.
Sometimes it's jumping on my bike.
But if I've been super active and I've put a large number of miles in
on my bike or a large number of miles on walk-in and, and I know that my
body is a little bit exhausted too.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Dr. Kate Lund:
I might take a nap.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Dr. Kate Lund:
I might tune out with my favorite podcast or something along those lines.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Dr. Kate Lund:
You know, I might kind of do something like that.
So it kind of is situationally dependent, but oftentimes
there's movement, there's nature.
But sometimes there's an app.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, but yeah, I think what you just described there, so if you
have, if one's all pent up that desire or, or, or the ameliorative effect
of really hard exercise, okay, then we're gonna get some neuroplasticity.
That's going to create a brain change, right?
But then also of course, we're gonna end up with happy hormones.
We're gonna end up with endorphins that are going to
allow us then to pause and reset.
That's the nap.
And then that's a reset of the nervous system.
Meanwhile, because you just did that hard exercise, that neuroplasticity has
a certain knock on, carry on effect.
So even while you're napping or tuning out to that podcast that neuroplasticity sort
of keeps, keeps going, and then you can sort of come out of that at the other end.
With a bit of a different brain.
But I, I, so I think what you just described is very sound from a,
from a neurological point of view.
It's just that, you know, I think a lot of people don't
necessarily have access to that.
And it interesting you talk about napping because in the stoic school of Wasp
fish culture, we're not supposed to nap.
That's a sign of weakness.
You know, we're supposed to flog ourselves and keep going
and keep going and keep going.
And this, I, you, you might be aware of what Google apparently used to call
on in its campus 20% time, apparently.
Back in the early days people employed on the campus would be
allowed to spend 20% of their day not working because it was known.
Among the upper management, that it was in that sort of daydreaming
time or doing something else that people came up with their best ideas
and those ideas belong to Google.
So you could sort of do anything that you wanted to and apparently
that's how Gmail came into being.
But I guess what you're really talking about there to some
degree is also myelination.
Right?
So, you know, myelin being the fatty tissue that grows around new neuron
connections when they're made, which are a bit fragile to begin with, you know?
And then as we rest that fatty tissue, like a sort of insulation cable.
Comes around them and then makes them secure, and then
we've got a new neural pathway.
Without that nap, it's very difficult for those neurons to remain connected.
And so what we learned, or so it might, we might forget it, we might lose it.
How do you deal with when people are very, very resistant to the idea of the nap?
I'm a great believer in it, but I'm a late comer to it.
You know, I, I, for years would never allow myself to, and I remember people
sort of trying to encourage me to do that, and I'd absolutely blow that out away.
And then I realized that that was just really stupid.
But, you know, this is in our culture,
Dr. Kate Lund:
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: The workaholic, the, the, the self martyrdom, all that.
How do you help people through that?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, it's, it's again, it's an important question and no one size fits all, per se.
I, I have been slow to come to the nap too, because, you know, you always
just wanna be moving forward and Wow.
What do you, what does that mean?
But I have felt the power, the benefits in it.
Yeah.
My husband's always been a napper, you know, and so it's, it's so fascinating.
Right.
And to recognize, yeah.
Wow.
Okay.
So that was a great thing that he was doing as opposed to,
why are you napping so much?
This, you know, it's like, whatcha doing?
Rupert Isaacson: Do you have to write him an apology letter now for all the
times that you ed on him for napping?
Dr. Kate Lund:
I think, I think I was able to apologize verbally.
It was fine, but Yeah, no, it, we laugh about that.
It's pretty funny.
But, you know, again, it's, it's kind of trying to introduce the potential
benefits and recognizing that, you know.
All of these shifts, all of these changes that folks make have
to come from the inside out.
So it's educating, it's giving examples of, you know, why this
could be beneficial and encouraging folks to try it in small bites.
Mm-hmm.
And seeing what happens.
Because we like to have folks integrate changes which feel daunting or
overwhelming, or like, they're not aligned in small bite-size pieces so
that they can integrate them over time because the, there's no button that
they can push to be like, oh, I can feel the benefits of a nap and I'm a napper
now, you know, that kind of a thing.
So yeah, it's a process.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely.
What, what is the number one biggest hurdle to resilience that you see?
Dr. Kate Lund:
You know, it's.
Folks having trouble slowing down to the point of understanding what they need
to be at their best, what they need to optimize their overall sense of wellbeing.
So it's a process to help folks to slow down and kind of explore what those
things are and then integrate them over time to build that sense of awareness
of what they need to be at their best.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
The slowing down again.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
The breathing, the perspective.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yes.
And, and yes, the perspective and creating that space to gain perspective
and to even gain perspective on what it looks like to be at your best.
Sometimes we're so used to functioning in a suboptimal place that we don't
recognize that there's more is possible.
You know,
Rupert Isaacson: it's true.
We get very used to existing in that sort of cortisol state.
We're good at it.
I mean, I guess we are resilient.
Yes.
Humans are resilient.
Uhhuh, do you, okay, so just bring it back to parenting.
So
in an ideal world, we have two parents but those two parents
are not always on the same page.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: When the parents are beginning to battle about
the best way forward for a child this of course can escalate it.
Yeah.
We don't need to say much more.
I should imagine a certain, you know, a fair amount of
your work is dealing with this
Dr. Kate Lund:
mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: In your book, how do you help people through that?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, you
Rupert Isaacson: know, apart from just telling them to
go to counseling, you know?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Right.
Yeah.
You know, so it's, well, so the book has case examples throughout
to illustrate main points.
Okay.
And so in the scenario that you just described, communication is key, right.
And not always easy, right?
Well, yes.
Not always easy.
In a perfect world, yes.
Communication between the spouses that are the two parents that are not on the same
page in terms of the best way forward.
So we encourage communication to, to the.
Extent possible.
We also recognize that we're gonna have different ways, perhaps, of viewing things
that might cause tension, angst difficult relationships to get more difficult.
But one thing that's really important is to mm, try to work those differences out.
Come to a, a, a common understanding away from the children.
So not being, not having those difficult discussions in front of the kids.
And also then trying to help each parent to understand the
other a little bit more fully.
Except that we might have different ways of looking at things and what's the middle
ground, you know, those types of things.
It's, it's a process.
There's no one size fits all, and there's no one perfect answer.
But it's really coming up with a compromise, a middle ground between
the different ways of looking at things and going from there.
And that really happens through a willingness to listen and try
to understand the other person and accept that there's more than
one way to make something happen.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you give people techniques for that listening?
Dr. Kate Lund:
You know, it's listening.
It's sometimes journaling on our response to our.
Spouse or our co-parents or whatever, their way of doing things, they're kind
of thoughts about how something should be.
The other thing that's really important, and not to be a broken record on this,
but to be showing up in that level space to be modulating our stress,
our stress response, and to try to show up in an optimized space, in
an optimized way ourselves, so that we're better able to engage in these
conversations, in these discussions, in these areas, which are more challenging.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, someone once gave me a really good technique, which was
helpful to me when I was in a situation where I, I, I, I was finding it very
hard to listen, and the other person was finding it very hard to listen to me.
And you know that that's not optimal, but things have just moved to a point where,
boy, and what they said to me was, ask yourself, where's the awesome in this?
And like, just from a purely selfish perspective, where is the
op hidden opportunity here for me?
Even amid, among this hostility where it seems that you are not
there, there, there is no opportunity other than to try and survive it.
But just to ask that question, is it possible that there is something, there's
some little golden nugget in here that is actually a key to my own freedom.
And if so.
Should I not listen quite closely to see if that's there?
And that made perfect sense to me.
It was funny, it, it, of all the things that I was told,
that one really resonated.
I think partly because also I have a background of living with
hunting and gathering people and this idea of tracking.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Constantly tracking.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But it's very hard to track Well, if you're upset 'cause
you're not following the signs.
Yeah.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Right, right.
Rupert Isaacson: So just to stop and ask oneself that, and that became
a habit which I then found helpful.
But, you know, by no means foolproof, but it definitely helped me avoid
falling into cycles of conflict or bitterness or, knee jerky sort.
Well, all like, so you have your knee jerk, but then you have your paws and
your, but it, it, it, it, it was that piece of advice that, that, that helped.
I wonder if that's similar to perhaps your
your thinking of the word that brings you pleasure and joy.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And thinking of the thing that brings you pleasure and joy.
That it allows you a moment of perspective.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Which is very difficult to do when the adrenaline is rising.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But nonetheless, if, if that's a sort of a muscle one can
exercise and strengthen to some degree a sort of response, a neurological response,
one can almost like a muscle memory.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Because creating that space, that perspective allows us.
To respond as opposed to react, particularly when
we're on different pages.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes.
And it's so funny, you know, I can, I can catch myself sometimes in the sort
of everyday stuff that goes on thinking, oh, I didn't do that there, I didn't,
I didn't have that pause between my reaction and my response or so, you
know, that if I had only just paused a moment and separated myself for only a
nanosecond from the reaction, then my response would've been so much better.
But I suppose at least I do think those things these days, whereas
in the old days, I wouldn't have thought about that at all.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Right, right.
And it's, it's a process, right?
And so shifting in that, yeah.
Direction, I love it.
Cool.
Rupert Isaacson: And I think, I think that's the important thing about a, a book
like yours in that it does give people chance to bring their attention there.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: What is it they say in law of attraction?
You know, energy goes where attention flows, where attention goes or, or
something like that, that you know, when you put your eyes on a particular
path, that's inevitably where you'll sort of end up walking towards.
I dunno if you're familiar with Neville Godard.
The the, he was a sort of a,
before new age existed, sort of back in the forties and fifties, he was
a bit of a guru who interpreted it through a very Christian scripture
sort of lens and very much sort of early law of attraction stuff.
And he would say that in the Bible, when they say you to turn the other cheek,
if you're slapped, is not to be a pussy.
It's to simply.
If you don't like what you're seeing over there, turn literally your gaze
over there to something that you do like and go in that direction.
'cause as long as you're looking at the thing you don't like,
that's where you're gonna be going.
And I do wonder if that technique that you were talking about earlier in the
conversation is really a version of that.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Very possible.
You know, I think it's at the core to kind of calm the central nervous system,
but in a sense yeah, shifting our focus calming the central nervous system
in a way that allows us to shift our focus in a more productive or optimal
direction, I think is what I would say.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
If you have a hope for your book and the work that you do with,
with parenting, what would you say?
I mean, apart from obviously ameliorating suffering, but.
What, what would you say your mission is with this?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, so with this, my, my primary mission is to really help folks to
appreciate their own unique context.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Without falling into, you know, the comparison trap or vibe.
And within that context, be able to create create a roadmap
for how to be at their best.
And then from there, believe in the possibility that's out there
for them and for their children.
On the other side of the challenges that are inevitably gonna come up.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So a lot of it's about imagining what, what good looks like, perhaps
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well.
Yes.
Creating a map for what good looks like and then moving intentionally towards,
Rupert Isaacson: and how do you create that map?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, you create that map by really being intentional by, you know, increasing your
sense of awareness through conversations with a coach or a therapist, or
journaling, or really taking the time to sit down and think about, Hmm, what
are the things that make me feel good?
What do I want my life to look like?
How might I be able to create that?
And my book kind of creates a, is is a catalyst for that kind of a process.
Kind of like a, a playbook, so to speak, for folks to start thinking about these
things and create that foundation for, for optimizing their own sense of wellbeing.
And in doing that, helping their, their children and families to do the same.
Rupert Isaacson: What are the building blocks of that?
Like, do, is it vision boarding?
Is it visualizations?
Is it guided meditations?
Is it these, you know, these are sort of known tools.
Yeah.
Or are there others?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, you know, so it's, it's lots I essentially what we
already have talked about the ma modulating your stress response.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Dr. Kate Lund:
The visualization is a big piece of it.
We also want folks to be able to see the things that are going well as opposed to
just the things that are not going well.
The challenges.
So really important.
Ones called the Daily Wins exercise.
And we have folks sit down at the end of each day, or you can do it
at the beginning of each day and come up with three to five things
that went well on that given day.
Because human nature.
Takes us pretty readily to the negative stuff.
Yeah, the negative bias.
What should have happened?
What should we have done?
Why are we not succeed?
You know, that kind of thing.
So this daily wind exercise helps neutralize our lens and maybe even put
it a little bit towards the positive.
We're not trying to minimize the challenges because challenge is
real and it's gonna come up every single day, probably multiple
times for all of us big or small.
And so the Daily winds exercise is an important piece.
Journaling is a huge piece.
What's happened in our day?
How did we respond to it?
How would we like to respond differently?
Creating that kind of a roadmap is important.
Rupert Isaacson: What do you do for the people like me who just will not journal?
Nope.
I write for a living.
It's like, no, I'm sorry.
I'm not gonna write anymore.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, I got ya.
And, and, right.
It's not, it's not gonna fit for everybody.
Right.
So then you might, you
Rupert Isaacson: say plan B from journaling.
Dr. Kate Lund:
So plan B from journaling is reflection.
You can always take time to reflect, to think, and you can do
that, you know, within yourself.
Or you can do that in conjunction with you know, a spouse, a partner, a
trusted advisor, a friend and kind of go back and forth in your reflections.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Dr. Kate Lund:
So that would be plan B.
You don't have to write it out.
And then another building block is.
What do you love to do?
You know, what, what is a hobby that you don't have time for that you might
be able to reintegrate in some way?
Maybe it's something you love to do in the past.
Maybe it's something you wanna try that's new, but creating space, and
it could be a teeny, tiny engagement to start, but to give your sense self
that sense of how that feels to be, you know, taking a little bit of time out to
paint or draw or whatever it is for you.
You know, there's no one size fits all.
That's an important building block as well.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's funny, I have a I grew up very much in the
English hunt field, which is fox hunting, you know, riding two hounds.
Which is, there is nothing like it in terms of adrenaline.
Now I can't justify doing that anymore because I can't hassle
a, a fox for my own enjoyment.
So I, I do a.
Simulated version of it where we lay a scent and try to do it creatively so
that the hounds, you know, have a bit of trouble working it out and we'll get
someone to lay it across a stretch of country that might be a bit challenging
to ride over or something like that.
But it's, and even then frequently I find that I'm not able to do
it for bazillions of reasons.
So I discovered YouTube and I realized that people were going out hunting
in these areas of England that I grew up in, which I love and are
still dear to me, even though I live, you know, hundreds of, sometimes
thousands of miles away from that.
And they put, he, they put helmet cams on and they go.
And I found, I found people going out hunting in these areas that I grew up in.
And I watch them, and it's so interesting.
I feel so much better.
It's like, at first I thought, oh, it's just gonna make me feel
bad because I'm not able to do it, and I'm not able to go there.
It's like, no, it was the opposite.
And it was so unexpected and, and such a kind of lovely
use of social media in a, in a funny way.
You know, we're so used to thinking of social media as a negative, but of
course, you and I would not be having this conversation, but for social media
people perhaps wouldn't discover your book, but for social media so, you know,
social media is just another way for humans to, you know, swap information.
But I was, I was really astonished by the joy that that came with this.
Do you help people to, to sort of engage virtually in the things
that give them joy if they can't access them perhaps in this moment?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Definitely that, that's always an opportunity depending on, you know,
who the person is or their willingness to engage in that way, but absolutely.
You know, and it can be as simple as you know, a virtual meeting,
a virtual coffee meeting with a friend, or that kind of a thing.
Or there are folks who love to engage in role-playing games online in communities
of folks that they, they are a part of, you know, that kind of a thing.
So there's all sorts of opportunity to do just the type of thing
that you're, you're describing.
So Absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
The sort of blessings of the modern age in a funny way.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Well listen, people will need to know how to find the book.
How to Access You.
I know you do public speaking, I know you also coach online and virtually, and I'm
sure there's listeners and people watching who think Yeah, I could use a bit of Kate.
So how do they find you, Dr.
Kate and your book?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Absolutely.
So a great way to do that is through my website, which
is www kate lund speaks.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Kate lund speaks.com.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yes, exactly.
And my book is available on the website as well as on Amazon.
Rupert Isaacson: And give us the title again.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Step Away.
The Keys to Resilient Parenting.
Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.
Dr. Kate Lund:
And I'm also very active on Instagram and LinkedIn.
Rupert Isaacson: Great.
So people can find you.
And if they also want to a bit of personal help, they can
let you help them get some resilience in their parenting.
A
Dr. Kate Lund:
hundred percent.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.
Well I, I know that a lot of our followers will be interested in
that, so thank you so much Dr.
Kate for coming on.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it.
This has been a lot of fun.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it really has.
And I'm gonna go and try your your just, I'm gonna imagine horses say awesome,
not imagine I'm gonna say horses.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: The next time I'm, I'm, I've got it on my agenda.
I'm gonna say that tomorrow when I get stressed about something.
'cause I inevitably will.
And I'm gonna see how that goes for me and I'll take, see
if I can find that baseline.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Perfect.
I love it.
And let me know how it goes.
Rupert Isaacson: I will, I will indeed.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, my friend.
Thank you so
Dr. Kate Lund:
much.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Bye-bye.
Bye.
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