WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:01.120 Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us. 00:00:01.190 --> 00:00:03.230 Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free. 00:00:03.410 --> 00:00:06.810 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of 00:00:06.830 --> 00:00:08.389 The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home. 00:00:08.450 --> 00:00:13.089 Before I jump in with today's guest, I want to say a huge thank you to you, our 00:00:13.089 --> 00:00:14.989 audience, for helping to make this happen. 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:15.949 I have a request. 00:00:16.219 --> 00:00:19.750 If you like what we do here, please give it a thumbs up, 00:00:19.799 --> 00:00:22.380 like, subscribe, tell a friend. 00:00:22.770 --> 00:00:24.910 It really, really helps us to make the pro. 00:00:24.910 --> 00:00:28.930 To find out about our certification courses, online video libraries, 00:00:29.435 --> 00:00:33.325 books, and other courses, please go to rupertisaacson.com. 00:00:34.894 --> 00:00:36.125 So now let's jump in. 00:00:36.775 --> 00:00:38.305 Welcome back to Live Free. 00:00:38.305 --> 00:00:38.845 Ride Free. 00:00:38.845 --> 00:00:39.714 I've got Dr. 00:00:39.714 --> 00:00:40.735 Kate Lund. 00:00:41.185 --> 00:00:42.385 I hope I pronounce it right. 00:00:42.385 --> 00:00:45.055 Might be Lund, might be Lund one doesn't know with these Yeah. 00:00:45.295 --> 00:00:48.864 Scandinavian names through the North American filter. 00:00:49.285 --> 00:00:56.390 But she is specialist in the area of resilience and 00:00:56.390 --> 00:00:59.179 particularly resilience parenting. 00:00:59.179 --> 00:01:03.539 And those of you who know my story know that I've had to cultivate some of that. 00:01:03.660 --> 00:01:06.210 And those of you who are special needs parents who are listening 00:01:06.210 --> 00:01:10.560 to this are busy cultivating as much of that as you possibly can. 00:01:10.949 --> 00:01:17.940 And I like the fact that the conversation is turning a little bit. 00:01:18.930 --> 00:01:23.729 Away from just trauma, trauma informed, da, da, da, all of those things, which are 00:01:23.729 --> 00:01:26.850 the buzzwords of up until quite recently. 00:01:27.270 --> 00:01:30.990 And because I, I've always felt a bit like, well, yeah, you sort of can't 00:01:31.740 --> 00:01:35.729 go around on planet Earth without getting traumatized from time to time. 00:01:35.729 --> 00:01:37.650 It's what do you do with it? 00:01:37.650 --> 00:01:40.169 How do you recover from it? 00:01:40.440 --> 00:01:42.479 That's always what's of interest to me. 00:01:42.600 --> 00:01:44.720 And so I'm very excited to have Dr. 00:01:44.720 --> 00:01:46.429 Kate to talk to us about that. 00:01:46.429 --> 00:01:50.749 She's the author of a book called Step Away which hopefully she'll 00:01:50.749 --> 00:01:52.949 talk to us about and her own story. 00:01:52.949 --> 00:01:55.199 So without further ado, Dr. 00:01:55.199 --> 00:01:57.600 Kate, welcome to The Livery Ride Free. 00:01:57.900 --> 00:02:02.850 Please tell us who you are, what you do, and why you do it. 00:02:03.690 --> 00:02:03.691 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:02:03.690 --> 00:02:04.110 Sure. 00:02:04.170 --> 00:02:04.710 Absolutely. 00:02:04.710 --> 00:02:06.089 Well, thank you so much for having me. 00:02:06.089 --> 00:02:07.110 I really appreciate it. 00:02:07.110 --> 00:02:08.190 I'm, I'm glad to be here. 00:02:08.190 --> 00:02:09.449 This is, this is gonna be fun. 00:02:09.959 --> 00:02:13.049 So I'm a licensed clinical psychologist. 00:02:13.049 --> 00:02:19.709 I've been doing this work for 20 plus years, and at this point I 00:02:19.709 --> 00:02:24.899 work primarily with adults, many of whom, most of whom are parents. 00:02:25.269 --> 00:02:31.179 Oftentimes they also, in addition to their own struggles or challenges that they're 00:02:31.179 --> 00:02:35.319 facing, have a, have a child facing some sort of a challenge or obstacle. 00:02:35.319 --> 00:02:37.749 So sometimes we work concurrently. 00:02:38.189 --> 00:02:44.584 I started out in medical psychology, pediatric medical psychology and then we 00:02:44.584 --> 00:02:47.584 moved about 17 times for my husband's job. 00:02:47.644 --> 00:02:50.494 And I, then we had kids of our own. 00:02:50.554 --> 00:02:52.234 I have 18-year-old twin boys. 00:02:52.514 --> 00:02:57.954 So I really kind of worked to keep my focus, my practice somewhat portable and 00:02:57.954 --> 00:03:00.624 flexible so I could be available for them. 00:03:00.934 --> 00:03:05.884 So kinda pivoted to the virtual world and away from those 80 00:03:05.884 --> 00:03:07.614 hour work weeks in the hospital. 00:03:07.644 --> 00:03:11.364 But I still at this point have a passion for that area. 00:03:11.424 --> 00:03:15.714 And I'm out in the hospital, Seattle Children's Hospital several times 00:03:15.714 --> 00:03:20.364 a month, probably more than that with my dog Wally, who is a part of 00:03:20.364 --> 00:03:22.374 their animal assisted therapy team. 00:03:22.854 --> 00:03:28.594 And that is a big, big piece of my passion and my work these 00:03:28.594 --> 00:03:30.034 days that I absolutely love. 00:03:30.484 --> 00:03:32.134 In addition to that, I write books. 00:03:32.164 --> 00:03:35.544 I have a podcast, and that's, that's basically the, the 00:03:35.544 --> 00:03:36.414 long and the short of it. 00:03:36.604 --> 00:03:38.254 So that's me in a nutshell. 00:03:38.363 --> 00:03:38.483 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:03:38.483 --> 00:03:39.288 What's your podcast? 00:03:39.898 --> 00:03:39.899 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:03:39.898 --> 00:03:41.338 It's called The Optimized Mind. 00:03:41.578 --> 00:03:46.188 And it's really is the, the main goal is to. 00:03:46.818 --> 00:03:49.338 Access the human experience of resilience. 00:03:49.338 --> 00:03:54.348 How have folks overcome challenge, built what they've built, bounced back 00:03:54.348 --> 00:03:55.848 from adversity, that sort of thing? 00:03:56.158 --> 00:03:58.198 Really from a hu through a human lens. 00:03:58.198 --> 00:04:02.918 We interview folks across domains corporate folks, entrepreneurs 00:04:03.038 --> 00:04:05.258 authors, parents, athletes. 00:04:05.528 --> 00:04:07.028 So it's a really wide range. 00:04:07.028 --> 00:04:08.558 It's a broad, broad reaching show. 00:04:09.518 --> 00:04:10.298 Rupert Isaacson: Fascinating. 00:04:10.358 --> 00:04:13.118 Alright, now I've read your bio, of course. 00:04:13.118 --> 00:04:18.458 So I know about a little bit about why you do this work, but the people 00:04:18.458 --> 00:04:23.378 listening and watching will not, you have your own special needs story. 00:04:23.378 --> 00:04:24.848 Could you tell us that? 00:04:24.878 --> 00:04:28.868 And then from there I want to start asking how do we cultivate resilience? 00:04:28.868 --> 00:04:30.068 So, but let's start with you. 00:04:30.833 --> 00:04:30.834 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:04:30.833 --> 00:04:31.193 Sure. 00:04:31.253 --> 00:04:31.973 Absolutely. 00:04:31.973 --> 00:04:36.953 So, yeah, when I was four, I was diagnosed with a condition, a medical 00:04:36.953 --> 00:04:38.573 condition called hydrocephalus. 00:04:38.633 --> 00:04:38.723 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:04:38.983 --> 00:04:38.984 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:04:38.983 --> 00:04:40.963 Came on very suddenly when I was four. 00:04:40.963 --> 00:04:44.323 And what that is, is it's the cerebral spinal fluid isn't 00:04:44.323 --> 00:04:47.803 circulating as it should, so pressure builds up on the brain. 00:04:47.923 --> 00:04:51.493 And so at four, I wasn't really able to articulate, oh my goodness, 00:04:51.493 --> 00:04:52.663 I have this horrible headache. 00:04:52.963 --> 00:04:55.543 But I was throwing up, you know, just outta the blue. 00:04:55.573 --> 00:04:57.223 I would say my forehead hurt. 00:04:57.253 --> 00:05:00.523 I would, you know, my eyes would be kind of all over the place. 00:05:00.523 --> 00:05:02.443 'cause when you have pressure on your brain, your eyes don't 00:05:02.443 --> 00:05:03.703 really work the way they should. 00:05:04.253 --> 00:05:05.993 So it was really a hard, hard thing. 00:05:05.993 --> 00:05:08.873 My parents were trying to figure out what was going on. 00:05:09.413 --> 00:05:13.733 Imaging in those days was in its infancy, so it took a while for the 00:05:13.733 --> 00:05:15.503 doctors to figure out what it was. 00:05:16.403 --> 00:05:20.373 The good news is the condition is managed with something called a shunt, which 00:05:20.403 --> 00:05:24.813 actually circulates the cerebral spinal fluid when it can't circulate on its own. 00:05:25.533 --> 00:05:27.213 So I had a shunt put in. 00:05:27.813 --> 00:05:29.403 Bad news is shunts break. 00:05:29.683 --> 00:05:34.693 So a large portion of my childhood was spent in and outta the hospital, coming 00:05:34.693 --> 00:05:39.763 back to school looking different, feeling different, you know, big glasses, half 00:05:39.763 --> 00:05:43.963 ahead of shaved hair, wearing a huge helmet when I was ice skating with my 00:05:43.963 --> 00:05:48.133 classmates, you know, when helmets were not cool back in that, in those days. 00:05:48.613 --> 00:05:51.553 So that was, yeah, it was, it was a hard, hard time. 00:05:51.553 --> 00:05:55.903 And I was lucky because I had a lot of great support from my parents, 00:05:56.413 --> 00:06:02.113 my teachers, parents of friends, and they helped me to, when the shunt was 00:06:02.113 --> 00:06:05.863 working well focus on what I could do as opposed to what I couldn't do. 00:06:06.043 --> 00:06:09.843 And that then I think that made all the difference for me really to be 00:06:09.843 --> 00:06:12.633 able to move forward in a way that. 00:06:13.368 --> 00:06:18.528 Enabled me to be resilient and believe in my possibility as opposed 00:06:18.528 --> 00:06:20.568 to just in what wasn't possible. 00:06:21.348 --> 00:06:22.308 Rupert Isaacson: And you still have a shunt? 00:06:22.878 --> 00:06:22.879 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:06:22.878 --> 00:06:23.238 I do, yes. 00:06:23.568 --> 00:06:24.528 Rupert Isaacson: That's for life, right? 00:06:24.978 --> 00:06:24.979 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:06:24.978 --> 00:06:25.128 That's 00:06:25.878 --> 00:06:25.958 Rupert Isaacson: for life, yes. 00:06:25.958 --> 00:06:28.698 And does it still break from time to time, or are they now much better and 00:06:28.698 --> 00:06:30.198 so there's, there's more stability? 00:06:31.018 --> 00:06:31.019 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:06:31.018 --> 00:06:32.338 Well, yes and no. 00:06:32.388 --> 00:06:33.138 They do break. 00:06:33.198 --> 00:06:38.388 I am, I have not had, knock on wood, I should preface that with a knock 00:06:38.388 --> 00:06:40.938 on wood, a revision since 2001. 00:06:40.938 --> 00:06:41.028 Okay. 00:06:41.688 --> 00:06:46.068 But it happens, you know, and it's, it's nothing is guaranteed. 00:06:46.068 --> 00:06:49.278 So yes, there's a, there's that piece that lives in the 00:06:49.278 --> 00:06:50.598 back of your mind at all time. 00:06:50.598 --> 00:06:53.028 I mean, in the back of my mind at all times. 00:06:53.028 --> 00:06:53.418 Yes. 00:06:53.598 --> 00:06:57.178 Rupert Isaacson: So hydrocephalus I know some people with it but 00:06:57.178 --> 00:06:58.678 they were diagnosed at birth. 00:06:58.708 --> 00:07:02.708 Is it is it common for it to be a later onset like that? 00:07:03.528 --> 00:07:03.529 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:07:03.528 --> 00:07:05.178 It can be a later onset. 00:07:05.178 --> 00:07:12.948 And so for me the story is that at four I was diagnosed, they didn't know why I had 00:07:12.948 --> 00:07:16.613 the hydrocephalus because as I mentioned in imaging was its in its infancy. 00:07:16.613 --> 00:07:16.813 Mm-hmm. 00:07:16.968 --> 00:07:19.458 So they could figure out, you know, the, the ventricles were big. 00:07:19.458 --> 00:07:22.398 The, the cerebral spinal fluid wasn't circulating, but the 00:07:22.398 --> 00:07:24.738 imaging was only that good. 00:07:24.798 --> 00:07:30.738 So it wasn't until I was 18 when the MRI with Gadolinium came out. 00:07:31.018 --> 00:07:35.098 Gadolinium is the contrasting agent for MRIs that they were able 00:07:35.098 --> 00:07:38.898 to see the two tumors that were actually blocking my aqueduct. 00:07:39.268 --> 00:07:43.408 So that was another massive hurdle. 00:07:43.408 --> 00:07:43.948 Actually. 00:07:43.948 --> 00:07:47.378 It was you know, they, they had to go in and operate on those tumors. 00:07:47.478 --> 00:07:51.388 The second one of those operations was very, very difficult. 00:07:51.508 --> 00:07:53.278 And I was basically out. 00:07:54.298 --> 00:07:58.268 For an entire year, postponed college for a year had to recover. 00:07:58.268 --> 00:08:00.308 And there too, I was extremely fortunate. 00:08:00.428 --> 00:08:04.898 You know, it was a long drawn out saga, but I did bounce back. 00:08:04.928 --> 00:08:05.318 And, 00:08:05.333 --> 00:08:07.358 Rupert Isaacson: and these tumors presumably were, were 00:08:07.358 --> 00:08:08.978 they benign or were they 00:08:09.848 --> 00:08:09.849 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:08:09.848 --> 00:08:14.418 Yeah, they were, they were considered low grade juvenile pilocytic astrocytomas. 00:08:14.418 --> 00:08:20.388 So what that means is, in childhood, a low grade tumor is much different 00:08:20.388 --> 00:08:22.398 than if it were diagnosed in adulthood. 00:08:22.728 --> 00:08:22.998 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:08:23.238 --> 00:08:23.239 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:08:23.238 --> 00:08:27.368 And yeah, I've, I was very, very fortunate and that those had been 00:08:27.368 --> 00:08:30.333 around since I was four, and they were discovered when I was 18. 00:08:30.333 --> 00:08:30.533 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:08:30.533 --> 00:08:32.768 And is that what had caused the hydrocephalus, in fact? 00:08:32.793 --> 00:08:32.794 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:08:32.793 --> 00:08:33.013 Yes. 00:08:33.218 --> 00:08:33.638 Yes, exactly. 00:08:33.638 --> 00:08:34.898 Rupert Isaacson: I see, I see, I see. 00:08:34.898 --> 00:08:37.628 So the late onset was because of these tumors. 00:08:38.123 --> 00:08:38.124 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:08:38.123 --> 00:08:38.333 Yep. 00:08:38.513 --> 00:08:39.083 Exactly. 00:08:39.083 --> 00:08:42.263 It's like, it's like it's possible that they were there when I 00:08:42.263 --> 00:08:43.943 was born, but they grew okay. 00:08:43.973 --> 00:08:45.983 Because they were growing through my childhood. 00:08:45.983 --> 00:08:46.073 Mm-hmm. 00:08:46.313 --> 00:08:47.393 We just didn't know I had them. 00:08:47.773 --> 00:08:52.573 So, you know, it's, it's, yeah, it's, they were there and that's 00:08:52.573 --> 00:08:53.803 what caused the hydrocephalus. 00:08:54.343 --> 00:08:56.973 Rupert Isaacson: And do they have any idea what caused them? 00:08:58.173 --> 00:08:58.473 No. 00:08:58.473 --> 00:09:00.483 Or is that just a completely open question? 00:09:00.963 --> 00:09:00.964 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:09:00.963 --> 00:09:02.553 It's a completely open question. 00:09:02.643 --> 00:09:04.653 They have no idea why that happens. 00:09:04.653 --> 00:09:06.153 And Yeah. 00:09:06.603 --> 00:09:09.723 Rupert Isaacson: And you are clear now, or are you, do you have to go 00:09:09.723 --> 00:09:11.073 in and be checked from time to time? 00:09:11.643 --> 00:09:11.644 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:09:11.643 --> 00:09:17.093 Well, so when the tumors were diagnosed that became the main focus, right? 00:09:17.093 --> 00:09:18.533 It was like, oh no, there are these tumors. 00:09:18.533 --> 00:09:24.443 And so for about 25 years or so, from that point, when I was 18, they were 00:09:24.533 --> 00:09:27.053 watched very, very, very closely. 00:09:27.473 --> 00:09:30.983 The frequency between scans has definitely increased. 00:09:31.253 --> 00:09:34.493 And now the focus is more on making sure the shunt is working well. 00:09:34.493 --> 00:09:34.523 Okay. 00:09:34.923 --> 00:09:37.503 But, but even that, even that's not all the time. 00:09:38.253 --> 00:09:38.613 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:09:38.613 --> 00:09:38.614 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:09:38.613 --> 00:09:40.833 So the, the, it has definitely spread out. 00:09:40.833 --> 00:09:41.193 Yeah. 00:09:41.703 --> 00:09:45.713 Rupert Isaacson: So tell me what are the limitations I want to talk to what 00:09:45.713 --> 00:09:49.763 are the non limitations and the, but what are the natural limitations, both 00:09:49.763 --> 00:09:54.863 for a child and an adult, if you are wearing a shunt, if you are managing 00:09:54.863 --> 00:09:56.663 this condition, what can't you do? 00:09:57.803 --> 00:09:57.804 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:09:57.803 --> 00:09:59.813 Yeah, so that's, that's a really interesting question. 00:09:59.813 --> 00:10:04.103 'cause I know what I had to stay away from when I was a child. 00:10:04.163 --> 00:10:08.453 You know fast rides at the amusement park strobe lights, 00:10:08.573 --> 00:10:10.493 blinking lights, you know, fast. 00:10:10.573 --> 00:10:13.423 I couldn't do gymnastics, hang upside down. 00:10:13.813 --> 00:10:15.733 I had to be really cognizant of. 00:10:16.123 --> 00:10:17.413 Getting hit in the head. 00:10:17.413 --> 00:10:20.713 So I couldn't play contact sports in any way. 00:10:20.713 --> 00:10:21.608 I had to wear a giant, you couldn't 00:10:21.608 --> 00:10:22.573 Rupert Isaacson: get into pipes in the playground. 00:10:23.053 --> 00:10:23.054 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:10:23.053 --> 00:10:24.193 I could not, no. 00:10:24.193 --> 00:10:27.283 And I, I, I, I, I shied away from those anyway, but yeah. 00:10:27.553 --> 00:10:29.393 Even the, and giant helmet, but 00:10:29.393 --> 00:10:30.883 Rupert Isaacson: one can't always avoid them, you know? 00:10:30.883 --> 00:10:35.353 So is there a certain element of living in fear as a child in the playground at 00:10:35.353 --> 00:10:36.913 that, you know, that comes with that? 00:10:37.873 --> 00:10:37.874 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:10:37.873 --> 00:10:41.383 I think what, what happened for me, I, I mean, I wasn't in fear about 00:10:41.383 --> 00:10:45.253 fights 'cause that just, I wasn't gonna get into that in any way. 00:10:45.253 --> 00:10:45.823 It was my, and 00:10:45.823 --> 00:10:48.163 Rupert Isaacson: it wasn't a, a particularly bullying type of school? 00:10:48.673 --> 00:10:48.674 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:10:48.673 --> 00:10:48.883 No. 00:10:49.063 --> 00:10:52.813 I mean, bullying, laughing from a distance, but not, not pushing 00:10:52.813 --> 00:10:54.103 me around or anything like that. 00:10:54.108 --> 00:10:54.228 Okay. 00:10:54.423 --> 00:11:01.323 But I think that there was an element of fear because I was always afraid of what 00:11:01.323 --> 00:11:03.243 was gonna happen and what could happen. 00:11:03.248 --> 00:11:03.278 Yeah. 00:11:03.283 --> 00:11:03.783 And all of that. 00:11:03.783 --> 00:11:06.393 So I became absolutely very, very cautious. 00:11:06.723 --> 00:11:09.903 Like, I, I was a very cautious child and I'm still cautious. 00:11:09.933 --> 00:11:11.343 I mean, I, you know. 00:11:11.418 --> 00:11:18.708 I, I, I'm not, I, I never had that kind of mm, experience of being like a carefree 00:11:18.708 --> 00:11:21.348 child who just did whatever in the moment. 00:11:21.348 --> 00:11:21.408 Yeah. 00:11:21.408 --> 00:11:25.638 Because I felt like it, I was always like having to think about the ramifications. 00:11:25.968 --> 00:11:28.668 Rupert Isaacson: And if you wanted to say, for example, go off to the 00:11:28.668 --> 00:11:32.358 Amazon and sit in the jungle for 10 years, is that feasible for you? 00:11:32.358 --> 00:11:37.858 Or do you need, is that, no, I must be close to good medical care where, 00:11:38.218 --> 00:11:39.778 you know, there's that infrastructure. 00:11:41.278 --> 00:11:41.279 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:11:41.278 --> 00:11:42.208 I would say Yes. 00:11:42.268 --> 00:11:44.938 I, I, I think, yeah, definitely. 00:11:44.938 --> 00:11:47.788 I mean, I'm not, again, my disposition wouldn't take me 00:11:47.818 --> 00:11:49.018 to the Amazon for 10 years. 00:11:49.018 --> 00:11:50.458 But, but yeah, definitely. 00:11:50.458 --> 00:11:55.528 That's always kind of in the back of my mind like, hmm, I can't, you know, 00:11:55.828 --> 00:11:58.258 move to wherever just because I want to. 00:11:58.318 --> 00:12:04.018 It has to be somewhere where there is, is good medical, solid medical care. 00:12:04.018 --> 00:12:04.318 Yeah. 00:12:04.768 --> 00:12:05.188 Rupert Isaacson: Got it. 00:12:05.668 --> 00:12:06.418 And then. 00:12:06.958 --> 00:12:11.308 In terms of your own children are the tumors completely random? 00:12:11.338 --> 00:12:12.628 Are, is it hereditary? 00:12:12.628 --> 00:12:15.238 Does that go in the back of your mind? 00:12:15.238 --> 00:12:17.968 What if that develops or is that not really a worry? 00:12:18.838 --> 00:12:18.839 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:12:18.838 --> 00:12:23.398 Yeah, I mean, it definitely crossed our minds when, you know, the boys were 00:12:23.398 --> 00:12:25.198 young and, and all of these things. 00:12:25.278 --> 00:12:29.478 But, and I, and before we had the boys, you know, I, I asked those 00:12:29.478 --> 00:12:33.948 questions, you know, is there perhaps a hereditary or genetic component to this? 00:12:33.948 --> 00:12:35.058 And they're like, absolutely not. 00:12:35.058 --> 00:12:37.248 No, they were pretty, pretty convinced. 00:12:37.248 --> 00:12:39.048 And, and my boy, my boys are great. 00:12:39.048 --> 00:12:42.798 You know, they're, they're, they knock on wood, have not had 00:12:42.798 --> 00:12:44.808 any, any issues similar to this. 00:12:44.813 --> 00:12:46.098 Rupert Isaacson: Got it. 00:12:46.148 --> 00:12:51.658 Then finally, pregnancy pregnancy with a shunt, any different or, or not? 00:12:52.258 --> 00:12:52.259 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:12:52.258 --> 00:12:54.178 It's, it's very, it's doable. 00:12:54.228 --> 00:12:59.338 But it requires a greater, a greater, I, you know, more, more appointments, 00:12:59.398 --> 00:13:01.348 more, but definitely doable. 00:13:01.448 --> 00:13:01.478 Okay. 00:13:01.478 --> 00:13:02.198 In most cases. 00:13:02.198 --> 00:13:02.438 Yeah. 00:13:03.638 --> 00:13:08.798 Rupert Isaacson: So all of this of course, prepares you for helping 00:13:08.798 --> 00:13:11.408 people with the resilience because you had to learn to be resilient. 00:13:12.008 --> 00:13:14.648 Let's just go back to your childhood. 00:13:16.598 --> 00:13:22.868 Can you give me a point where you felt at your most un resilient, like where was the 00:13:23.198 --> 00:13:30.548 bottom of the curve and what do you think were the tools that you found and employed 00:13:30.878 --> 00:13:34.073 to begin to get you out of there that have now brought you to the work that you do? 00:13:35.083 --> 00:13:35.084 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:13:35.083 --> 00:13:38.978 Yeah, that's a really, really interesting point or interesting question. 00:13:39.458 --> 00:13:44.558 And I think, you know, there were two kind of bottom points. 00:13:44.608 --> 00:13:51.028 The first one I would say was when I was 10 and my shunt was 00:13:51.028 --> 00:13:52.978 not working for a very long time. 00:13:53.008 --> 00:13:54.268 But again, the imaging. 00:13:54.853 --> 00:13:57.103 Wasn't what it is today. 00:13:57.103 --> 00:13:59.233 And they couldn't see what was happening. 00:13:59.233 --> 00:14:04.743 I actually had developed a a cyst which was gonna require a second shunt 00:14:05.193 --> 00:14:07.423 and they couldn't see it at the time. 00:14:07.423 --> 00:14:11.023 So I got, I was really, really sick, but I was struggling through 00:14:11.023 --> 00:14:14.383 because the doctor said there was nothing wrong, even though Right. 00:14:14.443 --> 00:14:15.313 I was not well. 00:14:15.673 --> 00:14:19.763 And that was really a, a, a bottoming out in terms of being 00:14:19.763 --> 00:14:21.563 in school, feeling like that. 00:14:21.863 --> 00:14:24.413 But then finally they figured it out. 00:14:24.953 --> 00:14:32.573 I got to see and meet with and, and have the cyst managed by another 00:14:32.603 --> 00:14:36.243 doctor who I then ended up, who then ended up following me, you 00:14:36.243 --> 00:14:37.503 know, for the rest of my childhood. 00:14:37.863 --> 00:14:41.463 So that I think was a, a big piece my. 00:14:42.558 --> 00:14:46.938 Kind of in, in integrating or internalizing this ability to come back 00:14:46.938 --> 00:14:50.268 from that, you know, I had to be out of school for like three, four months. 00:14:50.268 --> 00:14:51.618 Coming back wasn't easy. 00:14:52.158 --> 00:14:57.348 But the truth is, I did come back and I was able to then focus on really 00:14:57.588 --> 00:15:01.638 dial, dial in on what I could do as opposed to what I couldn't do. 00:15:01.998 --> 00:15:06.748 And one of the things that, that had happened earlier is that, you 00:15:06.748 --> 00:15:08.278 know, I couldn't play contact sports. 00:15:08.278 --> 00:15:10.798 I had wanted to play ice hockey like my brother, but that was out. 00:15:10.798 --> 00:15:10.888 Mm-hmm. 00:15:11.218 --> 00:15:16.498 So I gravitated towards tennis and that became a big deal for me. 00:15:16.498 --> 00:15:19.708 Like that was a huge piece of my, my identity, my life. 00:15:19.708 --> 00:15:20.998 And I became pretty good at it. 00:15:21.508 --> 00:15:26.128 I was never the best, but I was good, you know, and, and that was 00:15:26.128 --> 00:15:27.478 really, that meant a lot to me. 00:15:27.478 --> 00:15:31.228 And it, it reinforced for me what I could do as opposed to what I couldn't do. 00:15:31.978 --> 00:15:35.728 So tennis was huge coming back from that, that point. 00:15:36.148 --> 00:15:37.918 And then the second kind of. 00:15:38.908 --> 00:15:44.848 This kind of dip or really low point was after the second tumor surgery where I 00:15:44.848 --> 00:15:50.148 was really, really, it was a very, very difficult year with many complications and 00:15:50.298 --> 00:15:52.038 many questions and all of these things. 00:15:53.178 --> 00:15:55.038 And I was able to come back from that. 00:15:55.438 --> 00:15:58.438 And riding my bike helped me there. 00:15:58.508 --> 00:16:04.588 And I, I I, my dad gave me a bike to help me recover like 11 months 00:16:04.588 --> 00:16:06.028 after the whole saga started. 00:16:06.598 --> 00:16:10.348 And I was able to start college that following year and brought my bike 00:16:10.348 --> 00:16:17.908 with me and use that bike as a way of managing through all the challenges. 00:16:18.298 --> 00:16:20.428 And that became a central piece of my identity. 00:16:20.428 --> 00:16:25.918 So I think all of those things helped me focus on what was possible and really. 00:16:26.818 --> 00:16:30.778 Started my path of like, oh, okay, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be a psychologist, 00:16:30.778 --> 00:16:35.218 you know, I'm gonna help people to move through and beyond challenges, 00:16:35.218 --> 00:16:38.698 and I'm gonna, you know, that kind of all started to crystallize in college 00:16:38.698 --> 00:16:43.918 and wasn't a linear path from there, but it was the beginning of, okay, this 00:16:43.918 --> 00:16:45.508 is, this is actually what I'm gonna do. 00:16:46.888 --> 00:16:50.278 Rupert Isaacson: So your parents must have really gone through it. 00:16:50.548 --> 00:16:56.608 Did you observe that at the time and did that make you interested 00:16:56.638 --> 00:16:57.988 even on a subconscious level? 00:16:57.988 --> 00:17:00.898 Do you think because you, you, you now kind of specialize to some 00:17:00.898 --> 00:17:05.038 degree in resilience, parenting, your parents must have had to 00:17:05.308 --> 00:17:06.718 develop a fair bit of resilience. 00:17:06.718 --> 00:17:08.548 They must have been worried sick the whole time. 00:17:09.058 --> 00:17:11.608 It's, but it's interesting to me that you made that leap away from 00:17:11.608 --> 00:17:15.628 yourself more towards parenting. 00:17:15.988 --> 00:17:16.798 Why is that? 00:17:16.798 --> 00:17:16.888 And. 00:17:18.718 --> 00:17:24.148 Yeah, tell us a bit about your work with resilience parenting, because 00:17:24.148 --> 00:17:28.498 I, as someone who has to live that somewhat daily that is of interest to me. 00:17:29.158 --> 00:17:29.159 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:17:29.158 --> 00:17:30.358 Yeah, absolutely. 00:17:30.358 --> 00:17:30.868 And you're right. 00:17:30.868 --> 00:17:34.468 I mean, my parents, it was, it was not easy for them, particularly in those, 00:17:35.008 --> 00:17:40.138 well in any of the years, but in those early years when the imaging wasn't, and 00:17:40.318 --> 00:17:44.428 you know, up to snuff or whatever, what it is today, and kind of like, well, 00:17:44.428 --> 00:17:47.608 we don't know what's wrong, but yet they knew something was really wrong. 00:17:47.608 --> 00:17:53.578 So that was very, very hard and my parents really helped me to focus on what I could 00:17:53.578 --> 00:17:55.528 do as opposed to what I couldn't do. 00:17:55.978 --> 00:17:57.328 They definitely struggled. 00:17:57.428 --> 00:18:00.608 They were definitely very anxious and sometimes that impacted me 00:18:00.608 --> 00:18:03.848 a little bit, like, you know, the whole like anxious piece. 00:18:04.208 --> 00:18:06.938 But they did the very best they could and they were really 00:18:06.938 --> 00:18:08.378 there every step of the way. 00:18:08.758 --> 00:18:13.018 And I really do believe were catalysts for me too. 00:18:13.588 --> 00:18:18.648 Kind of not see myself as someone who could, couldn't do things, but rather 00:18:18.738 --> 00:18:21.348 someone who could despite the challenges. 00:18:21.408 --> 00:18:24.678 And so that was, that was a, a big deal. 00:18:24.718 --> 00:18:27.358 And yeah, maybe, maybe it was a subconscious thing. 00:18:27.408 --> 00:18:31.308 My kind of gravitation towards the, the resilient parenting piece. 00:18:31.818 --> 00:18:35.538 I think another reason that resilient parenting has become 00:18:35.538 --> 00:18:40.908 kind of a primary focus is because of my own journey as a parent. 00:18:41.298 --> 00:18:46.278 And you know, my boys are 18 and so there's been that piece of it. 00:18:46.278 --> 00:18:50.358 So my, my new book, step Away, the Keys to Resilient Parenting is written 00:18:50.358 --> 00:18:56.178 through three lenses, the lens of my early experiences, and those of my 00:18:56.178 --> 00:18:58.128 parents mentioned at the beginning. 00:18:59.028 --> 00:19:03.918 My 20 years as a psychologist working with a lot of parents who are 00:19:04.308 --> 00:19:08.538 struggling with some, some situations, some challenge, medical challenge 00:19:08.538 --> 00:19:09.918 or otherwise with their child. 00:19:10.488 --> 00:19:14.688 I did my early training, my early, you know, many years of training 00:19:15.258 --> 00:19:17.328 in pediatric medical settings. 00:19:17.658 --> 00:19:20.898 Working a lot with parents in addition to the kids. 00:19:21.558 --> 00:19:24.378 And then the third lens is my life as a parent. 00:19:24.378 --> 00:19:28.998 So I think there's, there's a lot that brings me to this point, but 00:19:29.328 --> 00:19:35.928 definitely I think some on, on some level subconsciously and consciously related 00:19:35.928 --> 00:19:39.768 to watching my parents struggle with what they struggled in relation to my issues. 00:19:40.018 --> 00:19:40.528 Medically, 00:19:41.608 --> 00:19:43.408 Rupert Isaacson: tell us about your journey as a parent. 00:19:44.578 --> 00:19:46.258 How, what has happened? 00:19:47.278 --> 00:19:47.279 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:19:47.278 --> 00:19:49.768 My, my journey as a parent has been awesome. 00:19:49.858 --> 00:19:53.658 Not without, not without its ups and downs, whatever, but you know, I. 00:19:54.393 --> 00:20:00.163 Our boys were, were born in 2007 and no sooner had we gotten them home 00:20:00.163 --> 00:20:03.913 from the hospital, my husband's job was transferred to another city. 00:20:04.813 --> 00:20:05.323 So 00:20:05.623 --> 00:20:06.523 Rupert Isaacson: what does your husband do? 00:20:06.893 --> 00:20:06.894 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:20:06.893 --> 00:20:08.513 He is in sales and marketing. 00:20:08.513 --> 00:20:08.573 Yeah. 00:20:08.783 --> 00:20:09.308 Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah. 00:20:09.308 --> 00:20:11.618 So getting drafted to different places. 00:20:11.618 --> 00:20:12.008 Yep, 00:20:12.188 --> 00:20:12.189 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:20:12.188 --> 00:20:12.548 yep. 00:20:12.548 --> 00:20:17.168 Getting drafted to different places within this, the same or different companies. 00:20:17.168 --> 00:20:19.268 And so there was a lot of that early on. 00:20:19.638 --> 00:20:23.318 So there was a lot of balance, you know, striking balances, but, but I 00:20:23.318 --> 00:20:26.138 entered parenthood thinking, no problem. 00:20:26.168 --> 00:20:27.188 I can, I can do it all. 00:20:27.188 --> 00:20:28.958 You know, I'm gonna have a robust career. 00:20:29.288 --> 00:20:33.218 I'm gonna be the parent who's present available, shows up. 00:20:33.548 --> 00:20:36.758 I'm gonna focus on my fitness, I'm gonna have my friends. 00:20:36.758 --> 00:20:37.658 It's gonna be great. 00:20:38.078 --> 00:20:39.278 No sooner had. 00:20:40.268 --> 00:20:44.228 The boy's been born that I figured, I've learned that that was not reality. 00:20:44.228 --> 00:20:46.598 So there is no perfect balance. 00:20:46.598 --> 00:20:48.338 There is no perfect. 00:20:48.418 --> 00:20:51.078 It's, it's the it's the balance that isn't right. 00:20:51.078 --> 00:20:54.198 You have to just do the best you can and strike a balance that 00:20:54.198 --> 00:20:57.708 works for you in the moment and in the, in the general situation. 00:20:57.708 --> 00:20:58.608 And that's what I learned. 00:20:58.798 --> 00:20:59.968 Took a while, but I learned it. 00:21:00.448 --> 00:21:03.748 And that's really what I, what I work with, with folks on as well. 00:21:03.748 --> 00:21:05.158 There's no one size fits all. 00:21:05.608 --> 00:21:05.818 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:21:05.818 --> 00:21:05.819 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:21:05.818 --> 00:21:11.818 And so the first, you know, several years I kind of put my career a little bit to 00:21:11.818 --> 00:21:14.818 the side so I could be present available. 00:21:15.238 --> 00:21:17.968 And I was very fortunate to be able to do that. 00:21:18.178 --> 00:21:22.348 And the boys, the boys and I had a good time as, as, as we were 00:21:22.348 --> 00:21:27.358 exhausted, as we were tired, as I caught many kid germs along the way. 00:21:27.628 --> 00:21:29.398 Aside from that, we, we had a good time. 00:21:29.398 --> 00:21:30.388 You know, I tried to. 00:21:30.808 --> 00:21:31.768 To do things with them. 00:21:31.768 --> 00:21:33.748 I wasn't, I wasn't reading parenting books. 00:21:33.748 --> 00:21:37.798 I was just doing the best I could, you know, I was popping them in their 00:21:37.798 --> 00:21:42.238 stroller and going out and walking and they knew me by name at Starbucks 'cause 00:21:42.238 --> 00:21:43.768 I was drinking way too much of that. 00:21:43.868 --> 00:21:49.418 But, you know, it was, it was the fact of really trying our best to 00:21:49.418 --> 00:21:51.368 do the best we could in the moment. 00:21:51.428 --> 00:21:55.358 And, and sure I didn't do everything perfectly and I don't think 00:21:55.358 --> 00:21:59.138 anyone does everything perfectly, but I did the best they could. 00:21:59.198 --> 00:22:03.398 My husband did the best he could, even though he was gone like six days a week. 00:22:03.398 --> 00:22:04.778 But he did the best he could. 00:22:04.928 --> 00:22:11.318 And you know, then when the boys were, Hmm, just about to turn 00:22:11.318 --> 00:22:15.968 four, we took a cross country road trip to our new home in Seattle. 00:22:16.658 --> 00:22:20.418 And I actually wrote a book about it narrated by my dog at the time and. 00:22:21.093 --> 00:22:25.053 Super fun, super fun trip, and we've been here ever since, you know, and 00:22:25.083 --> 00:22:28.563 striking the balance I've plugged my career in, I've built my career, 00:22:29.103 --> 00:22:33.753 but still tried to be around as much as as possible for the boys. 00:22:34.413 --> 00:22:38.093 And you know, probably will start a bit of a new chapter when they 00:22:38.093 --> 00:22:39.533 go off to college here soon. 00:22:39.533 --> 00:22:41.153 So, you know, it's, it's, 00:22:41.213 --> 00:22:43.523 Rupert Isaacson: but they haven't had a particular special needs 00:22:43.753 --> 00:22:44.953 history or anything like that. 00:22:44.953 --> 00:22:50.443 It's just been more the challenges that come with being a busy working mom. 00:22:51.013 --> 00:22:51.014 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:22:51.013 --> 00:22:51.373 Yeah. 00:22:51.373 --> 00:22:55.438 Well, you know, they've had, they've had things, there've been bumps in the road, 00:22:55.438 --> 00:22:58.203 you know, one of them had strabismus 00:22:58.293 --> 00:22:58.593 Rupert Isaacson: What is that? 00:22:58.798 --> 00:22:58.799 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:22:58.798 --> 00:23:02.133 And it's when the eyes don't track properly. 00:23:02.163 --> 00:23:02.253 Mm-hmm. 00:23:02.493 --> 00:23:07.203 So there was surgery for that early on, but we are very, very fortunate 00:23:07.203 --> 00:23:09.443 that that panned out in a positive way. 00:23:09.893 --> 00:23:11.543 But yeah, no, it's, it's been. 00:23:11.948 --> 00:23:17.408 From a medical perspective, knock on wood, again, to a typical childhood for them. 00:23:17.828 --> 00:23:18.128 Rupert Isaacson: Good. 00:23:18.908 --> 00:23:19.268 Okay. 00:23:19.268 --> 00:23:27.788 So you describe your own journey into resilience from those points of despair, 00:23:27.788 --> 00:23:29.708 and they must have been points of despair. 00:23:29.708 --> 00:23:29.798 Mm-hmm. 00:23:30.428 --> 00:23:34.058 What's, what stands out to me is it's about movement. 00:23:34.898 --> 00:23:39.218 So one thing is tennis, another thing there is riding the bike. 00:23:39.668 --> 00:23:39.669 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:23:39.668 --> 00:23:39.758 Mm-hmm. 00:23:40.328 --> 00:23:42.908 Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about movement and resilience. 00:23:43.868 --> 00:23:43.869 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:23:43.868 --> 00:23:45.308 Yeah, that's such a great question. 00:23:45.308 --> 00:23:48.908 And for me it's been integral. 00:23:48.938 --> 00:23:50.438 It's been, been everything. 00:23:50.438 --> 00:23:55.058 And so when I was younger, yes, it was tennis and being able to be out 00:23:55.058 --> 00:23:59.558 there on the court with the other kids and form relationships in that. 00:24:00.098 --> 00:24:00.158 Hmm. 00:24:00.158 --> 00:24:03.308 And I was never, never the best. 00:24:03.308 --> 00:24:03.868 I was, you know. 00:24:04.553 --> 00:24:09.503 The runner up in many tournaments, but I really if ever won the tournaments. 00:24:09.983 --> 00:24:10.163 Mm-hmm. 00:24:10.403 --> 00:24:14.303 And that was okay as long as I was out there playing and I was doing 00:24:14.303 --> 00:24:17.843 it from the inside out, moving, being out there on the court. 00:24:17.873 --> 00:24:18.623 'cause I loved it. 00:24:19.073 --> 00:24:20.423 Same with biking. 00:24:20.793 --> 00:24:23.943 I mentioned the bike my dad gave me when I was recovering from the brain 00:24:23.943 --> 00:24:27.393 tumor surgeries and started riding that. 00:24:27.603 --> 00:24:31.473 I rode it every single day, I would say in college. 00:24:31.473 --> 00:24:32.523 I rode it so much. 00:24:32.583 --> 00:24:38.933 And the summer I graduated, I rode my bike from Seattle to Denver with 00:24:38.933 --> 00:24:40.763 a group called Cycl Ascending Hunger. 00:24:41.513 --> 00:24:41.783 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:24:41.783 --> 00:24:41.784 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:24:41.783 --> 00:24:45.713 And we were, we were talking about the importance of proper nutrition 00:24:45.713 --> 00:24:51.033 and medical care for kids along the way you know, in the various towns 00:24:51.033 --> 00:24:52.323 that we were stopping in and such. 00:24:53.103 --> 00:24:57.363 And that was a huge experience for me because it was five 00:24:57.363 --> 00:24:59.403 years after the massive. 00:24:59.973 --> 00:25:03.333 Medical event with the, the brain surgeries that summer. 00:25:03.903 --> 00:25:07.263 And it, it meant everything to me to be able to be out 00:25:07.263 --> 00:25:10.563 there moving, doing that ride. 00:25:10.863 --> 00:25:11.913 And I, I was stubborn. 00:25:11.913 --> 00:25:16.533 I rode every single mile, even though I was last, every single day, even 00:25:16.533 --> 00:25:20.163 though I, I was in fine shape, but I just wasn't, you know, I wasn't up 00:25:20.163 --> 00:25:24.363 to the speed and the power that these other folks on my, on my trip were. 00:25:25.233 --> 00:25:26.193 But I was okay. 00:25:26.278 --> 00:25:30.933 I, I came in, you know, I, I was out there because I truly wanted to be there. 00:25:31.203 --> 00:25:32.913 Didn't matter to me if I came in last. 00:25:32.943 --> 00:25:34.683 I just wanted to be out there. 00:25:34.683 --> 00:25:42.603 So the idea of moving in that way yeah, has been a huge piece of my identity. 00:25:43.083 --> 00:25:46.893 And will continue to be, I mean, I'm doing it today these 00:25:46.893 --> 00:25:47.133 Rupert Isaacson: days. 00:25:47.133 --> 00:25:50.253 Are you familiar much with the neuroscience of, of movement? 00:25:50.253 --> 00:25:54.773 You know, so when, for example, my son became verbal 00:25:54.773 --> 00:25:56.153 in the saddle in front of me. 00:25:56.903 --> 00:26:02.033 I noticed almost immediately that the rhythm that the horse was in made a 00:26:02.033 --> 00:26:06.323 massive difference between how much or how little communication I got. 00:26:06.323 --> 00:26:09.593 And then I started recreating those rhythms. 00:26:09.593 --> 00:26:13.133 They're sort of soft dancey rhythms in, in horsey terms, you call 00:26:13.133 --> 00:26:15.263 it, collected a collected rhythm. 00:26:15.443 --> 00:26:19.253 And I thought, well, if, if this is working on the horse, so well, 00:26:19.493 --> 00:26:21.713 what about doing that off the horse? 00:26:21.713 --> 00:26:21.953 Right? 00:26:21.953 --> 00:26:25.163 So I emulated it with my shoulders. 00:26:25.163 --> 00:26:28.793 I emulated it on trampolines, I emulated it with swings, I emulated it with 00:26:28.793 --> 00:26:30.473 yoga balls, anything I could think of. 00:26:30.833 --> 00:26:33.603 And sure enough the results were pretty similar. 00:26:34.023 --> 00:26:38.343 And this also was born out with other kids who we would then invite, you 00:26:38.343 --> 00:26:42.843 know, to the, to the ranch to have play dates and they would respond to 00:26:42.843 --> 00:26:47.193 these rhythms on the horse and these particular ways of balancing and moving. 00:26:47.643 --> 00:26:50.693 So of course, at a certain point I, became curious and was like, well, 00:26:50.693 --> 00:26:51.893 I need to know why this is working. 00:26:52.163 --> 00:26:55.643 So I went to talk to neuroscientists and said, can you please explain? 00:26:56.033 --> 00:27:00.983 And the two things it really seemed to come down to was that if you rock 00:27:00.983 --> 00:27:04.823 your hips and rhythm, your body will produce the hormone oxytocin, which 00:27:05.183 --> 00:27:09.143 is not just a feel-good hormone that calms your over oversensitive nervous 00:27:09.143 --> 00:27:12.413 system, which of course, a lot of people say in your condition or in 00:27:12.413 --> 00:27:13.883 the condition of my son would've had. 00:27:14.323 --> 00:27:17.533 Which creates a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety, stress hormone, 00:27:17.533 --> 00:27:19.813 cortisol, which blocks learning. 00:27:20.143 --> 00:27:24.013 So things can present as a sort of intellectual disability when they're not. 00:27:24.433 --> 00:27:27.343 It's like the intellects actually fine, it's just kind of behind a locked door. 00:27:27.853 --> 00:27:32.133 But then equally that same hormone is the hormone of communication. 00:27:32.583 --> 00:27:36.663 And then when somebody moves and problem solves, riding a horse, 00:27:36.663 --> 00:27:43.158 playing, playing tennis, riding a bike, dancing the brain produces, a protein. 00:27:43.608 --> 00:27:48.408 And that protein is called BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic factor. 00:27:48.918 --> 00:27:50.478 And that is neuroplasticity. 00:27:50.478 --> 00:27:52.878 That is the building block, the essential Lego piece, you 00:27:52.878 --> 00:27:56.208 know, of, of neuroplasticity that becomes those neurons. 00:27:56.298 --> 00:28:00.618 And so when that was explained, I was like, oh, well, okay, I guess 00:28:00.618 --> 00:28:01.878 we could replicate this then. 00:28:02.208 --> 00:28:04.428 And so we, we did. 00:28:04.428 --> 00:28:07.488 And it sounds like to some degree that was what was going on for you. 00:28:07.938 --> 00:28:13.968 Did you, at a certain point when things were at their worst for you feel that you 00:28:13.968 --> 00:28:20.148 were in some kind of brain fog and did you feel, did you notice how movement, 00:28:20.448 --> 00:28:24.198 particularly moving and problem solving and hard exercise and that sort of 00:28:24.198 --> 00:28:28.518 thing, which you've described, did you notice a coming out of the brain fog? 00:28:28.518 --> 00:28:33.108 Sort of, can you just talk, describe that process was, and, and if 00:28:33.108 --> 00:28:34.818 not, then what was the process? 00:28:35.448 --> 00:28:35.449 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:28:35.448 --> 00:28:37.863 Yeah, it's really, really interesting and I, I. 00:28:38.508 --> 00:28:40.248 One thing is coming to mind. 00:28:40.708 --> 00:28:46.258 It's that year I mentioned when I had the, the first tumor surgery and 00:28:46.258 --> 00:28:47.848 then I had the second tumor surgery. 00:28:47.848 --> 00:28:52.388 And then there was a period of time where I was really not functioning 00:28:52.388 --> 00:28:56.438 very well in terms of my eyes were, they were in a constant state of motion 00:28:56.438 --> 00:29:00.578 because there was something, it just, it was not good and it was related 00:29:00.578 --> 00:29:03.818 to swelling and maybe something else, they're not quite sure what I bounced 00:29:03.818 --> 00:29:08.798 out a bit, but when I was in that space, I couldn't read, I couldn't watch tv. 00:29:08.888 --> 00:29:13.478 I was just kind of, I don't remember the brain fog per se, but I remember 00:29:13.478 --> 00:29:15.038 that I was just kind of there. 00:29:15.188 --> 00:29:17.108 I mean, I was wandering around as a whole, 00:29:17.108 --> 00:29:17.378 Rupert Isaacson: but stuck. 00:29:17.378 --> 00:29:18.013 Your brain couldn't do. 00:29:18.923 --> 00:29:18.924 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:29:18.923 --> 00:29:24.368 Yeah, I was just kind of, but what, what I did every single day and what was super 00:29:24.368 --> 00:29:27.488 helpful for me, and I wasn't thinking about it in these terms that you just 00:29:27.488 --> 00:29:30.698 described, but I think it fits and I think it probably is what was happening. 00:29:31.508 --> 00:29:34.958 I would go, we had this circular driveway at my, at my parents' house. 00:29:35.468 --> 00:29:40.568 And I would go and it was a 10th of a mile around once and I would 00:29:40.568 --> 00:29:46.178 just walk around and around and around and that was what I did. 00:29:46.508 --> 00:29:51.188 And I know that I felt better, obviously because we feel 00:29:51.188 --> 00:29:52.898 better when we move, you know? 00:29:52.898 --> 00:29:57.728 And particularly if it's kind of a piece of kind of what we need to be at our best. 00:29:58.148 --> 00:30:01.868 But in that moment where I was far from my best, I was 00:30:01.898 --> 00:30:03.518 actually really, really impaired. 00:30:03.818 --> 00:30:07.838 Those walks meant everything like that was a big deal. 00:30:08.378 --> 00:30:11.138 Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think you walked? 00:30:11.168 --> 00:30:16.208 Do you think that your body actually was wise and new? 00:30:17.363 --> 00:30:21.713 Listen, we need to get moving here so we can get this brain. 00:30:22.493 --> 00:30:22.494 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:30:22.493 --> 00:30:22.583 Mm-hmm. 00:30:22.823 --> 00:30:24.023 Rupert Isaacson: Neuro plasticizing. 00:30:24.443 --> 00:30:26.903 Do, because I, I am a great believer that the body is wise. 00:30:27.053 --> 00:30:28.313 Do you think that was what was going on? 00:30:28.433 --> 00:30:30.503 Or, or how much of it was a conscious decision? 00:30:30.503 --> 00:30:34.703 Were you like, I just wanna move because I feel like I need to move? 00:30:34.703 --> 00:30:36.683 Like, what prompted you? 00:30:37.463 --> 00:30:37.464 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:30:37.463 --> 00:30:38.903 I think there was a bit of both. 00:30:39.003 --> 00:30:43.413 Because I've always been someone who has thrived in movement. 00:30:43.473 --> 00:30:48.783 You know, I've always wanted to be in motion in some way, but in those 00:30:48.783 --> 00:30:55.713 moments when it would've been very easy to just sit because I wasn't really, 00:30:56.043 --> 00:30:58.023 I, I was, I was not in good shape. 00:30:58.383 --> 00:31:00.783 I think, yeah, I think my body probably knew. 00:31:01.008 --> 00:31:05.403 I, I think it was a combination, but for whatever, I'm, I'm grateful that, that 00:31:05.943 --> 00:31:07.563 my body was giving me those signals. 00:31:07.563 --> 00:31:12.633 And I also, I knew enough myself to know that, that it was gonna help 00:31:12.633 --> 00:31:15.123 me on some level, you know, and put, 00:31:15.123 --> 00:31:17.313 Rupert Isaacson: so tell me now about the work you do and the book 00:31:17.313 --> 00:31:22.203 that you've written, and how much do you integrate movement into that? 00:31:22.203 --> 00:31:26.253 And if so, what sorts of movement and why, and how do you tackle this 00:31:26.253 --> 00:31:32.373 with parents who are perhaps feeling defeated and crushed and exhausted, 00:31:32.613 --> 00:31:34.173 perhaps not wanting to move, et cetera. 00:31:34.173 --> 00:31:36.813 You know, talk us through your practice. 00:31:37.323 --> 00:31:37.324 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:31:37.323 --> 00:31:38.163 Yeah, got it. 00:31:38.163 --> 00:31:41.373 So yeah, so the, the book Step Away, the Keys to Resilient Parenting 00:31:41.643 --> 00:31:43.263 definitely integrates movement 00:31:43.833 --> 00:31:44.403 Rupert Isaacson: step away. 00:31:44.403 --> 00:31:46.413 I guess you have to move to step away, right? 00:31:46.413 --> 00:31:46.423 Yeah, 00:31:46.563 --> 00:31:46.564 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:31:46.563 --> 00:31:47.343 yeah, yeah. 00:31:47.583 --> 00:31:50.943 We're actually, we're stepping away so that we can step in more robustly, 00:31:50.943 --> 00:31:56.103 but yeah, and you know, the first piece is managing our stress response. 00:31:56.433 --> 00:32:02.313 Finding a way to show up as level as possible every day, because if 00:32:02.313 --> 00:32:04.203 we're starting the day up here. 00:32:05.118 --> 00:32:09.678 A stressor hits and boom, we shut, we escalate to the point of shutdown 00:32:09.678 --> 00:32:12.018 and that's not gonna gonna help us. 00:32:12.018 --> 00:32:17.958 And so, you know, I teach that the importance of finding that that modulated 00:32:17.958 --> 00:32:22.848 space in terms of our stress response, and that can either be through a mini 00:32:22.848 --> 00:32:27.978 meditation technique that I teach, derived from a technique developed 00:32:27.978 --> 00:32:32.328 by a physician in Boston in the 1970s called the relaxation response. 00:32:32.868 --> 00:32:37.698 So that's one, one thing to keep us level coming up with a word or 00:32:37.698 --> 00:32:41.778 a phrase that we find soothing in one, in some way, and then breathing 00:32:42.468 --> 00:32:47.268 and practicing that to the point of integration so we can show up level. 00:32:48.138 --> 00:32:52.038 And then it's layering on the other tools and strategies, one 00:32:52.038 --> 00:32:54.948 of which is definitely movement. 00:32:55.398 --> 00:33:00.768 Finding a way to move each and every day, whatever that looks like for you. 00:33:00.798 --> 00:33:04.308 Because the big idea in this book, and in really everything I teach, 00:33:04.308 --> 00:33:08.898 is that we want folks to thrive within their own unique context. 00:33:09.228 --> 00:33:12.108 There's no one size fits all in any of this. 00:33:12.198 --> 00:33:17.988 And so some folks might be, oh yeah, I've got the movement thing covered. 00:33:17.988 --> 00:33:19.698 You know, I'm on the Peloton every morning. 00:33:20.268 --> 00:33:24.888 But some clients might say, well, I don't really have time to move. 00:33:25.998 --> 00:33:28.608 I haven't exercised in 10 years. 00:33:28.908 --> 00:33:29.898 I don't know what to do. 00:33:29.898 --> 00:33:31.068 I don't know how to start. 00:33:31.488 --> 00:33:36.438 So those are two very different, you know, starting places for integrating 00:33:36.508 --> 00:33:38.398 movement in a, in a meaningful way. 00:33:38.968 --> 00:33:41.518 So really it's about those small steps forward. 00:33:42.058 --> 00:33:45.898 We really wanna avoid having that A to Z mentality. 00:33:45.898 --> 00:33:48.958 And if we don't succeed in that, eh, then why try? 00:33:49.588 --> 00:33:52.648 So it's, it's helping folks to. 00:33:53.488 --> 00:34:00.298 Notice and appreciate the small steps that they're taking to build a foundation 00:34:00.298 --> 00:34:05.578 of resilience, a resilient lifestyle that helps them optimize within their 00:34:05.578 --> 00:34:07.348 own unique context, if that makes sense. 00:34:07.678 --> 00:34:07.978 Rupert Isaacson: It does. 00:34:08.248 --> 00:34:12.208 Tell me about this chat from Boston and his relaxation technique, 00:34:12.388 --> 00:34:13.648 and why did you choose that? 00:34:13.648 --> 00:34:16.318 What, what, why do you feel that that is so effective? 00:34:17.068 --> 00:34:17.069 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:34:17.068 --> 00:34:20.068 Yeah, so it's Herbert Benson's technique. 00:34:20.428 --> 00:34:24.708 Herbert Benson is unfortunately he's no longer alive, but he's a 00:34:24.708 --> 00:34:33.078 physician in Boston and developed this technique in the 1970s before 00:34:33.348 --> 00:34:35.658 meditation, mindfulness, and the name 00:34:35.658 --> 00:34:36.138 Rupert Isaacson: again? 00:34:36.798 --> 00:34:36.799 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:34:36.798 --> 00:34:38.568 The relaxation response. 00:34:38.658 --> 00:34:39.948 Rupert Isaacson: The relaxation response. 00:34:40.038 --> 00:34:40.338 Okay. 00:34:40.758 --> 00:34:40.759 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:34:40.758 --> 00:34:41.958 By Herbert Benson. 00:34:42.498 --> 00:34:45.468 Rupert Isaacson: And why do you hone in on this given that we live in an age of 00:34:45.468 --> 00:34:48.198 mindfulness and other things like that? 00:34:48.198 --> 00:34:49.038 Why, why that? 00:34:49.878 --> 00:34:49.879 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:34:49.878 --> 00:34:50.268 Yeah. 00:34:50.268 --> 00:34:54.568 Well because it's, it's this technique is the cornerstone of 00:34:54.568 --> 00:34:58.378 the MINDBODY medicine program at Mass General Hospital in Boston. 00:34:58.888 --> 00:35:02.748 And that's where I did in addition to Shriners Hospital for Children in 00:35:02.748 --> 00:35:05.118 Boston, a lot of my early training, 00:35:05.448 --> 00:35:05.568 Rupert Isaacson: okay, 00:35:05.568 --> 00:35:05.569 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:35:05.568 --> 00:35:10.128 so I had a lot of exposure to this technique, the research 00:35:10.158 --> 00:35:11.598 around this technique. 00:35:11.868 --> 00:35:15.228 So, you know, there are many ways to get there. 00:35:15.498 --> 00:35:21.378 It's just this technique is so efficient and effective and simple. 00:35:21.888 --> 00:35:24.918 That, that's why I gravitated towards it. 00:35:24.923 --> 00:35:25.043 Tell, 00:35:25.338 --> 00:35:26.958 Rupert Isaacson: tell us, how does one do it? 00:35:26.958 --> 00:35:27.888 What's the 1, 2, 3. 00:35:28.458 --> 00:35:28.459 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:35:28.458 --> 00:35:31.638 So super easy, you come up with a word or a phrase that 00:35:31.638 --> 00:35:33.168 you find soothing in some way. 00:35:34.113 --> 00:35:34.893 You breathe, 00:35:34.983 --> 00:35:36.273 Rupert Isaacson: like cheers, for example. 00:35:36.633 --> 00:35:36.634 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:35:36.633 --> 00:35:36.903 Yeah. 00:35:36.993 --> 00:35:37.503 Whatever. 00:35:37.503 --> 00:35:41.193 Whatever, whatever you, whatever's gonna be soothing. 00:35:41.193 --> 00:35:41.223 Okay. 00:35:41.223 --> 00:35:43.143 You know, you don't want it to be complicated and 00:35:43.143 --> 00:35:44.883 you breathe and you do too. 00:35:44.883 --> 00:35:45.573 Rupert Isaacson: How do you breathe? 00:35:46.353 --> 00:35:46.354 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:35:46.353 --> 00:35:48.843 You breathe as you would normally breathe. 00:35:48.843 --> 00:35:50.433 You don't have to do anything. 00:35:50.643 --> 00:35:51.693 And that's why I like it. 00:35:51.753 --> 00:35:54.453 You don't have to be thinking about how you're breathing. 00:35:54.663 --> 00:35:55.623 You're just breathing. 00:35:56.163 --> 00:35:57.213 Rupert Isaacson: So let's try it now. 00:35:57.213 --> 00:35:57.273 Yeah. 00:35:57.273 --> 00:35:58.803 So I like horses for example. 00:35:58.803 --> 00:36:03.473 So if, if I'm feeling stressed and I think about horses, that's gonna be a 00:36:03.473 --> 00:36:06.353 little bit less stress than it would be if I didn't think about horses. 00:36:06.623 --> 00:36:09.893 So, would I say horses? 00:36:10.128 --> 00:36:10.129 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:36:10.128 --> 00:36:10.548 Mm-hmm. 00:36:11.273 --> 00:36:12.263 Rupert Isaacson: And then what would I do? 00:36:14.063 --> 00:36:14.064 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:36:14.063 --> 00:36:15.233 You would just sit here. 00:36:15.563 --> 00:36:16.913 Most people close their eyes. 00:36:16.918 --> 00:36:17.178 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:36:17.598 --> 00:36:18.418 I'm gonna do it with you, 00:36:18.833 --> 00:36:18.834 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:36:18.833 --> 00:36:19.163 okay? 00:36:19.733 --> 00:36:20.063 Okay? 00:36:20.063 --> 00:36:20.813 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:36:22.133 --> 00:36:22.134 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:36:22.133 --> 00:36:22.643 Okay. 00:36:22.643 --> 00:36:28.373 Now think of your word and just put that on slow, repeat and breathe 00:36:30.593 --> 00:36:31.523 Rupert Isaacson: forces. 00:36:32.753 --> 00:36:33.563 Horses 00:36:33.893 --> 00:36:33.894 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:36:33.893 --> 00:36:36.983 and it's generally most effective in your mind. 00:36:36.983 --> 00:36:37.463 The words. 00:36:37.583 --> 00:36:37.673 Rupert Isaacson: Sure. 00:36:37.673 --> 00:36:38.093 I'm just, 00:36:38.483 --> 00:36:38.484 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:36:38.483 --> 00:36:38.813 oh, yeah. 00:36:38.873 --> 00:36:39.173 Okay. 00:36:39.563 --> 00:36:40.763 Rupert Isaacson: Giving the running commentary. 00:36:40.768 --> 00:36:41.018 Okay. 00:36:41.078 --> 00:36:41.498 So, oh, 00:36:41.498 --> 00:36:41.499 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:36:41.498 --> 00:36:41.738 got it. 00:36:41.783 --> 00:36:42.173 Okay. 00:36:42.263 --> 00:36:43.793 Rupert Isaacson: Let's assume I'm talking about horses here. 00:36:43.793 --> 00:36:44.693 Thinking horses. 00:36:52.163 --> 00:36:52.703 Okay. 00:36:54.173 --> 00:36:55.463 This actually is working. 00:36:56.063 --> 00:36:56.064 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:36:56.063 --> 00:36:56.483 Yeah. 00:36:58.223 --> 00:36:58.673 Yeah. 00:36:58.673 --> 00:37:00.263 And so that's the thing, right? 00:37:00.263 --> 00:37:00.863 And so 00:37:00.953 --> 00:37:01.883 Rupert Isaacson: is it that simple? 00:37:02.333 --> 00:37:02.334 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:37:02.333 --> 00:37:03.293 Yeah, it is. 00:37:03.293 --> 00:37:04.073 It really is. 00:37:04.193 --> 00:37:04.258 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, interesting. 00:37:04.598 --> 00:37:04.599 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:37:04.598 --> 00:37:09.543 And, and the cool thing is you the more you practice for that five minutes in 00:37:09.543 --> 00:37:14.673 the morning, five minutes in the evening, this becomes somewhat of your baseline. 00:37:14.673 --> 00:37:18.688 You're integrating it into your baseline and it, so it's like a 00:37:18.688 --> 00:37:18.848 Rupert Isaacson: mantra. 00:37:19.358 --> 00:37:19.359 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:37:19.358 --> 00:37:20.048 Effectively. 00:37:20.048 --> 00:37:20.058 Rupert Isaacson: It's 00:37:20.253 --> 00:37:20.254 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:37:20.253 --> 00:37:20.793 Yes. 00:37:20.793 --> 00:37:21.213 Yes. 00:37:21.213 --> 00:37:22.683 With, with breath attached. 00:37:22.683 --> 00:37:26.403 And the cool thing is, and this works for a lot of, you 00:37:26.403 --> 00:37:28.023 know, most all of my clients. 00:37:28.923 --> 00:37:31.473 Also the younger athletes that I work with, they can 00:37:31.473 --> 00:37:33.033 keep it in their back pocket. 00:37:33.153 --> 00:37:37.653 And if they're entering into a stressful situation, a stressful medical 00:37:37.653 --> 00:37:42.363 appointment, a stressful conversation, a stressful sporting event, whatever, 00:37:42.753 --> 00:37:46.563 can kind of pull this out and do it for a minute or so to kind of level 00:37:46.563 --> 00:37:49.233 themselves before moving into that space. 00:37:49.653 --> 00:37:52.313 Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm 00:37:52.313 --> 00:37:59.493 an autism dad and we have a whole career before this podcast in helping 00:37:59.493 --> 00:38:04.213 people with neurodivergence, either who are professionals in the field. 00:38:04.293 --> 00:38:05.133 Are you a therapist? 00:38:05.553 --> 00:38:06.823 Are you a caregiver? 00:38:07.213 --> 00:38:08.223 Are you a parent? 00:38:08.658 --> 00:38:10.688 Or are you somebody with neurodivergence? 00:38:12.128 --> 00:38:17.068 When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004, 00:38:17.108 --> 00:38:18.738 I really didn't know what to do. 00:38:18.938 --> 00:38:24.208 So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult 00:38:24.248 --> 00:38:27.048 autistic woman who's very famous, Dr. 00:38:27.198 --> 00:38:28.088 Temple Grandin. 00:38:28.288 --> 00:38:29.928 And she told me what to do. 00:38:29.978 --> 00:38:34.218 And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years. 00:38:34.568 --> 00:38:39.018 That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped 00:38:39.278 --> 00:38:43.028 countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal. 00:38:43.368 --> 00:38:47.268 Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings. 00:38:48.298 --> 00:38:52.738 If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed 00:38:52.958 --> 00:38:54.998 approach, it's called Movement Method. 00:38:55.658 --> 00:38:59.015 You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply. 00:38:59.015 --> 00:39:01.278 It's almost laughably simple. 00:39:02.218 --> 00:39:04.918 The important thing is to begin. 00:39:05.848 --> 00:39:08.998 Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr. 00:39:08.998 --> 00:39:12.288 Grandin and see what results can follow. 00:39:13.318 --> 00:39:16.248 Go to this website, newtrailslearning. 00:39:18.518 --> 00:39:21.023 com Sign up as a gold member. 00:39:21.463 --> 00:39:24.353 Take the online movement method course. 00:39:24.843 --> 00:39:26.213 It's in 40 countries. 00:39:26.823 --> 00:39:28.883 Let us know how it goes for you. 00:39:29.083 --> 00:39:29.853 We really want to know. 00:39:29.863 --> 00:39:34.363 We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there 00:39:34.713 --> 00:39:37.993 live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens. 00:39:38.983 --> 00:39:39.943 Absolutely. 00:39:41.023 --> 00:39:45.283 I mean, some people might say, oh, money put me on, you know, which they say, you 00:39:45.283 --> 00:39:49.003 know, has all these, but I, you know, it is interesting that affirmations and 00:39:49.003 --> 00:39:53.173 mantras, I remember when I was growing up and despite the fact that I have long hair 00:39:53.233 --> 00:39:59.653 I'm not much of a hippie and, but I grew up very much in the seventies in England 00:39:59.653 --> 00:40:01.093 where a, it was a lot of hippie dump. 00:40:01.273 --> 00:40:01.873 Actually, it's wrong. 00:40:01.963 --> 00:40:04.063 I'm, I'm a card carrying hippie, but you know what I mean? 00:40:04.063 --> 00:40:09.103 I'm, I, I, I wasn't drawn to pop psychology or pop 00:40:09.103 --> 00:40:11.983 spirituality much, and so. 00:40:12.403 --> 00:40:16.813 We, one was brought up to dismiss that a little bit and be much more stoic. 00:40:17.713 --> 00:40:22.093 But there is no question that people have found mantras and affirmations 00:40:22.693 --> 00:40:26.923 really efficacious over millennia. 00:40:27.423 --> 00:40:31.773 Some people call it prayer, you know but I'd rather like the idea that instead 00:40:31.773 --> 00:40:35.853 of learning some word in Sanskrit or an affirmation that perhaps you don't 00:40:35.853 --> 00:40:39.823 fully believe because you know, if, if you are like loathing yourself 00:40:39.823 --> 00:40:42.973 or something, or in deep despair, if you say, well, I, I love myself. 00:40:43.183 --> 00:40:46.153 I actually do believe that if you say that enough, it actually does kick in. 00:40:46.183 --> 00:40:49.423 'cause I've been in situations where I've loathed myself and 00:40:49.663 --> 00:40:50.773 people have said, oh, try these. 00:40:51.673 --> 00:40:52.723 Affirmations I like. 00:40:53.263 --> 00:40:57.133 So your affirmations, you stick those, you know where you can imagine. 00:40:57.353 --> 00:40:59.963 But then I actually, of course had to try them, you know, and 00:40:59.963 --> 00:41:01.163 of course they actually worked. 00:41:01.473 --> 00:41:04.983 And then I realized, oh, I see actually I, I, I am a lot more 00:41:04.983 --> 00:41:06.213 plastic than I thought I was. 00:41:06.633 --> 00:41:09.813 But I like the idea of, of putting it in a language like that, 00:41:09.813 --> 00:41:13.053 that doesn't necessarily trigger somebody's, well, I'm not that sort 00:41:13.053 --> 00:41:14.493 of spiritual person type response. 00:41:14.493 --> 00:41:19.083 So we don't have to get over that obstacle and that hurdle in order 00:41:19.083 --> 00:41:22.383 to just find something effective. 00:41:22.993 --> 00:41:25.933 Okay, so there I am, I'm breathing, I'm thinking about horses and 00:41:25.933 --> 00:41:27.403 I'm, I'm feeling a bit better. 00:41:28.003 --> 00:41:31.063 What's my next step toward? 00:41:31.063 --> 00:41:31.064 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:41:31.063 --> 00:41:31.783 So it depends. 00:41:31.783 --> 00:41:32.053 Rupert Isaacson: Resilience, 00:41:32.053 --> 00:41:32.054 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:41:32.053 --> 00:41:33.433 it, it, it depends. 00:41:33.463 --> 00:41:39.223 But we wanna start integrating, you know, a little bit of joy, 00:41:39.253 --> 00:41:44.263 happiness, engaging in something that brings you that moment of. 00:41:45.433 --> 00:41:50.623 Levity of something beyond the challenge or the difficult situation that you're 00:41:50.623 --> 00:41:55.753 facing, or just the stress and overwhelm that you are experiencing, right? 00:41:56.173 --> 00:42:00.823 And that's a powerful, powerful thing because again, super simple, right? 00:42:01.333 --> 00:42:07.783 But so important because oftentimes challenge or not just in the context 00:42:07.783 --> 00:42:12.763 scope of our lives, we're moving so fast that we forget to laugh, we 00:42:12.763 --> 00:42:18.733 forget to find the joy in the small things, and it's really important. 00:42:18.733 --> 00:42:19.123 So give us an 00:42:19.123 --> 00:42:19.573 Rupert Isaacson: example. 00:42:19.573 --> 00:42:24.193 If someone's really low, I mean, one could get on Google and look up dad jokes. 00:42:24.553 --> 00:42:30.313 One could in my case, go swing my leg over a pony, but then perhaps I'm far from 00:42:30.313 --> 00:42:31.783 where the ponies are, so I can't do that. 00:42:32.203 --> 00:42:38.413 So what are the small, accessible joys that you feel you would 00:42:38.413 --> 00:42:39.213 normally suggest to people? 00:42:40.933 --> 00:42:40.934 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:42:40.933 --> 00:42:45.223 So, you know, it can be as simple as turning on your favorite song. 00:42:45.853 --> 00:42:45.883 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:42:45.953 --> 00:42:45.954 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:42:45.953 --> 00:42:54.593 It can be as simple as going outside and sitting on the front stoop with 00:42:54.623 --> 00:42:57.293 your favorite hot cup of coffee or tea. 00:42:57.773 --> 00:43:04.373 It could be going into your garden and looking at a beautiful flower. 00:43:04.553 --> 00:43:06.983 You know, listening to the birds sing. 00:43:07.313 --> 00:43:13.973 Anything that's going to shift you to, oh, that's, you know, a wonderful sound 00:43:13.973 --> 00:43:15.743 or a pretty flower, something like that. 00:43:15.743 --> 00:43:17.243 Just those small moments. 00:43:17.333 --> 00:43:19.433 And then we can build from there. 00:43:19.463 --> 00:43:23.243 We can build into, Hmm, wow. 00:43:23.393 --> 00:43:24.593 I love to draw. 00:43:24.933 --> 00:43:28.473 Maybe I'll call my friend and have a conversation. 00:43:28.473 --> 00:43:34.443 You know, all of these things, if we think about doing them in an intentional way. 00:43:34.863 --> 00:43:42.333 It really does bring a moment of respite, joy, that sort of thing, 00:43:42.423 --> 00:43:47.073 into those points where we're feeling so bogged down and so overwhelmed. 00:43:47.463 --> 00:43:50.823 And I'm not trying to negate the challenges here because those are real, 00:43:50.823 --> 00:43:56.163 but it's really trying to take those intentional steps that are gonna give us 00:43:56.163 --> 00:43:58.083 at least a moment away from that space 00:43:58.323 --> 00:43:58.653 Rupert Isaacson: to truth. 00:43:58.653 --> 00:44:01.223 What do you do when people are in that state of despair and 00:44:01.223 --> 00:44:03.683 apathy which we know can overtake. 00:44:04.223 --> 00:44:06.713 And then also with people who say, well, I don't, I dunno what I 00:44:06.713 --> 00:44:09.023 like, I I don't know what I want. 00:44:09.323 --> 00:44:12.623 I'm, I'm quite lucky, like, you know, I know I like ponies, so even 00:44:12.623 --> 00:44:15.623 thinking about them is going to make me feel better to some degree. 00:44:15.623 --> 00:44:17.423 But not everyone, you know, I've encountered this. 00:44:17.423 --> 00:44:21.413 Not everyone actually does have that passion or, or know what their passion is. 00:44:21.683 --> 00:44:23.513 Some people might have forgotten, pushed it away. 00:44:23.513 --> 00:44:26.723 Other people, as you know, are so overwhelmed, so despairing 00:44:26.903 --> 00:44:28.343 that they fall into that apathy. 00:44:28.733 --> 00:44:29.513 So. 00:44:30.443 --> 00:44:31.193 Speak to that. 00:44:31.913 --> 00:44:31.914 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:44:31.913 --> 00:44:32.993 Yeah, a hundred percent. 00:44:32.993 --> 00:44:35.243 And that's a great point because it's true, right? 00:44:35.243 --> 00:44:39.833 You could be either so deep in the apathy or you know, really be 00:44:39.833 --> 00:44:41.963 struggling with what those things are. 00:44:42.473 --> 00:44:48.743 So that's where, you know, that authentic human connection between me in my role 00:44:48.743 --> 00:44:56.543 as therapist or coach and client comes in and really taking the time to understand 00:44:56.543 --> 00:45:01.493 their experience, who they are, where they're coming from, where that the 00:45:01.493 --> 00:45:03.413 depth of that apathy is coming from. 00:45:03.863 --> 00:45:12.713 And then slowly over time helping them to, through conversation, through perhaps 00:45:12.713 --> 00:45:18.743 journaling or some personal exploration on some, some level kind of start to 00:45:18.743 --> 00:45:22.973 uncover, well, what are some things that maybe made me happy in the past? 00:45:23.303 --> 00:45:27.713 What are some things that, you know, I could envision. 00:45:29.078 --> 00:45:33.878 Re-engaging in, even if in a tiny, tiny way, because none of this, 00:45:33.878 --> 00:45:36.068 there's no on button for any of this. 00:45:36.068 --> 00:45:39.428 It's a process and there's no one way to do it. 00:45:39.968 --> 00:45:45.038 But it's slowly over time, building a sense of awareness of what those 00:45:45.038 --> 00:45:48.128 things are or were in the past. 00:45:48.548 --> 00:45:50.858 That's important to help people get in touch with. 00:45:51.638 --> 00:45:56.108 And that happens through that authentic human connection between 00:45:56.348 --> 00:45:58.448 therapist, coach, and client. 00:46:01.898 --> 00:46:04.378 Rupert Isaacson: You, you talked about maybe going out into the 00:46:04.378 --> 00:46:08.578 garden and looking at a flower or listening to the bird song. 00:46:09.173 --> 00:46:09.174 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:46:09.173 --> 00:46:09.593 Mm-hmm. 00:46:11.608 --> 00:46:15.958 Rupert Isaacson: When I'm talking to therapists, unless they're coming 00:46:15.958 --> 00:46:22.318 from a particular angle, what often surprises me is how little in the 00:46:22.318 --> 00:46:24.838 clinical setting they talk about nature. 00:46:24.838 --> 00:46:24.839 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:46:24.838 --> 00:46:26.548 Mm-hmm. 00:46:27.193 --> 00:46:30.903 Rupert Isaacson: You did just talk about nature, but I remember myself when I 00:46:30.903 --> 00:46:35.193 was going through some talk therapy and sitting in this office with the therapist 00:46:35.193 --> 00:46:39.673 and looking, hating it no movement. 00:46:40.543 --> 00:46:47.233 A room that well congenial enough was a room and the, you know, challenging 00:46:47.233 --> 00:46:53.483 frontal gaze of the therapist, you know, sparking my cortisol my stress. 00:46:54.083 --> 00:46:59.663 And I remember sort of looking out the window at the trees and thinking, gosh, 00:46:59.663 --> 00:47:04.703 if we were only walking out there under those, I would be feeling so much better. 00:47:04.703 --> 00:47:05.843 I'd be so much more receptive. 00:47:06.293 --> 00:47:10.433 And after, funnily enough, after a few sessions, I said to the therapist, 00:47:10.853 --> 00:47:13.163 could we not do this thing out there? 00:47:13.643 --> 00:47:18.923 And he came up with like a bazillion reasons why that would not be possible. 00:47:19.493 --> 00:47:22.253 And I said, look, you know, I actually know something about the brain. 00:47:22.253 --> 00:47:22.853 It's, it's. 00:47:23.438 --> 00:47:26.588 My job to, doesn't mean my brain is necessarily working very 00:47:26.588 --> 00:47:31.108 well, but I, I I do know sort of what it, what its needs are. 00:47:31.858 --> 00:47:35.638 Would you indulge me and then find, you know, still resisting? 00:47:36.088 --> 00:47:40.288 So I said, look, I'll pay you an extra hour, you know, that 00:47:40.318 --> 00:47:41.998 will cover the 10 minutes. 00:47:41.998 --> 00:47:45.388 It will take us to go down the stairs to go out there, blah, 00:47:45.393 --> 00:47:46.888 blah, and then to come back up. 00:47:46.888 --> 00:47:47.668 How about that? 00:47:48.268 --> 00:47:55.008 And with great reluctance, the therapist finally conceded, but 00:47:55.488 --> 00:47:57.498 wouldn't do it more than another time. 00:47:57.978 --> 00:48:02.148 And I realized that actually I needed then to find somebody 00:48:02.148 --> 00:48:04.248 who would take me into nature. 00:48:04.648 --> 00:48:05.188 So I did. 00:48:05.488 --> 00:48:09.988 But in the clinical setting, it's so not there. 00:48:10.228 --> 00:48:11.638 And yet that's our habitat. 00:48:12.628 --> 00:48:14.728 So how can we find wellbeing? 00:48:16.183 --> 00:48:16.993 Without that. 00:48:18.343 --> 00:48:20.383 And how do you incorporate that? 00:48:20.383 --> 00:48:24.223 Because I'm sure that when you are going into clinical settings, 00:48:24.613 --> 00:48:25.903 there are some constraints. 00:48:27.073 --> 00:48:31.093 How do you incorporate movement and nature? 00:48:32.443 --> 00:48:32.444 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:48:32.443 --> 00:48:35.863 Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a hard question, like when you can't 00:48:35.863 --> 00:48:37.363 get out of the clinical setting. 00:48:37.363 --> 00:48:37.453 Mm-hmm. 00:48:37.693 --> 00:48:41.653 Like, for example, with this therapist who is reluctant to, 00:48:41.653 --> 00:48:43.603 and, and sometimes there are, yeah. 00:48:43.603 --> 00:48:47.443 Constraints given the location of an office or that sort of thing. 00:48:48.373 --> 00:48:52.713 I personally do most of my work, all of my work actually right now virtually. 00:48:53.313 --> 00:48:59.673 So it's a question of what is available to the client, you know, where they 00:48:59.673 --> 00:49:03.813 are, you know, whether it's stepping out into the garden or, you know, 00:49:03.813 --> 00:49:08.973 so coming up with a plan as to what the possibilities are for them. 00:49:09.343 --> 00:49:15.053 But another, another space where I see this actually is when I'm working out at 00:49:15.053 --> 00:49:20.483 the Children's hospital with my dog you know, they have, I mean, very clinical 00:49:20.543 --> 00:49:26.753 setting inside the hospital obviously, but when a child is well enough to 00:49:27.293 --> 00:49:33.623 walk a little bit or perhaps they can go outside to the hospital garden in a 00:49:33.623 --> 00:49:39.323 wheelchair or something along those lines, those moments are very, very powerful. 00:49:39.503 --> 00:49:45.413 So, yeah, it's, mm, adapting with flexibility. 00:49:46.193 --> 00:49:50.213 Within the context of whatever, whatever that clinical setting is, to try to 00:49:50.213 --> 00:49:55.403 find options and opportunities and to encourage those if it's not top 00:49:55.403 --> 00:49:57.743 of mind for the patient or client. 00:49:58.073 --> 00:50:02.093 But yeah, there are those, those moments where perhaps it's less feasible. 00:50:02.543 --> 00:50:10.473 And then, you know, it's certainly not the same thing, but if nature, if a nature 00:50:10.473 --> 00:50:17.193 scene can be soothing to some, someone we can work with visualization around 00:50:17.763 --> 00:50:24.543 helping folks to engage through these images that they create in their mind. 00:50:24.543 --> 00:50:26.493 So that's, that's another opportunity. 00:50:26.883 --> 00:50:27.333 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 00:50:27.333 --> 00:50:27.723 I'm glad. 00:50:27.723 --> 00:50:30.278 Well, I'm glad you bring that up because yeah, what we know that. 00:50:31.388 --> 00:50:34.868 Both negatively and positively, the mind will respond to the stimuli that don't 00:50:34.868 --> 00:50:36.098 necessarily have to be real, right? 00:50:36.098 --> 00:50:41.348 So the co the amygdala fight, flight freeze will re respond to 00:50:41.348 --> 00:50:45.198 a threat that's imagined almost as strongly as a threat that's real. 00:50:45.468 --> 00:50:49.518 But similarly, you know, in our work sometimes with what we call 00:50:49.518 --> 00:50:53.418 movement method, maybe we're working in schools and we'll look at a very 00:50:53.418 --> 00:50:56.958 sterile classroom and say, you need to bring a bunch of plants in here. 00:50:57.048 --> 00:51:00.228 You know, and then the, sometimes the school administration will 00:51:00.228 --> 00:51:02.928 say, well, here's a bazillion reasons why we can't do that. 00:51:03.388 --> 00:51:07.638 And usually it'll come down to like fire hazard and allergies and we, 00:51:07.638 --> 00:51:08.928 they'll die 'cause we can't water them. 00:51:09.828 --> 00:51:11.388 And so we thought, oh gosh, what are we gonna do about that? 00:51:11.388 --> 00:51:14.628 And we realized, oh, well then we just put fake plants in there. 00:51:15.048 --> 00:51:19.008 And because the brain, when you see the fake plants, basically responds the same. 00:51:19.338 --> 00:51:23.218 And we'll put pictures of nature on the wall and, and, and and we'll. 00:51:24.718 --> 00:51:28.588 And so I like the idea that you will also give people visualizations 00:51:28.588 --> 00:51:32.398 of nature because I, it would, it would seem that those 00:51:34.648 --> 00:51:38.008 play upon the mind in the same way largely that the real thing does. 00:51:38.518 --> 00:51:46.258 Do you get people who are so far removed from that, that they'll try to reject it? 00:51:46.648 --> 00:51:49.108 And if so, how do you help them with that? 00:51:50.038 --> 00:51:50.039 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:51:50.038 --> 00:51:50.368 Yeah. 00:51:50.368 --> 00:51:51.418 You know, absolutely. 00:51:51.418 --> 00:51:56.648 You know, folks might not have experienced sort of the soothing 00:51:57.638 --> 00:52:02.108 impact of being out in nature or, you know, the, the, the positives around 00:52:02.108 --> 00:52:06.398 that, or perhaps it just hasn't been part of their life and experience so. 00:52:07.553 --> 00:52:11.903 What we can do is, you know, suggest, encourage, and try to 00:52:11.903 --> 00:52:16.508 build on that through that authentic connection right in mm-hmm. 00:52:16.793 --> 00:52:17.963 In the work that we're doing. 00:52:18.353 --> 00:52:20.573 But at the end of the day, we can't force it. 00:52:20.963 --> 00:52:21.023 No. 00:52:21.023 --> 00:52:27.263 But by building an awareness of the possibilities of the positive impact over 00:52:27.263 --> 00:52:31.973 time, you know, sometimes folks are able to, you know, shift gears and see things a 00:52:31.973 --> 00:52:38.333 little bit differently and then are often pleasantly surprised by the impact of 00:52:38.333 --> 00:52:40.313 engaging in that way, that kind of thing. 00:52:40.683 --> 00:52:42.808 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, a little suggestion can go a long way. 00:52:42.988 --> 00:52:43.708 It's true. 00:52:43.873 --> 00:52:49.318 And, and, and what people might resist at first, perhaps after they go away and 00:52:49.318 --> 00:52:52.798 have a bit of a think even, or not even a think, just their subconscious gets going. 00:52:53.488 --> 00:52:57.658 You mentioned you use your dog, you bring your dog into these clinical settings. 00:52:57.658 --> 00:52:58.918 So for me, that is nature, right? 00:52:58.918 --> 00:53:00.958 The animal is automatically nature. 00:53:01.108 --> 00:53:01.438 Yeah. 00:53:01.438 --> 00:53:01.458 You know? 00:53:01.458 --> 00:53:01.643 Yeah. 00:53:01.918 --> 00:53:06.148 So by bringing a dog into a sterile hospital walk, you have effect, you 00:53:06.148 --> 00:53:07.528 brought in the forest, you know? 00:53:07.618 --> 00:53:07.619 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:53:07.618 --> 00:53:07.798 Yes. 00:53:07.988 --> 00:53:10.508 Rupert Isaacson: What gave you that idea and Yeah. 00:53:10.568 --> 00:53:11.558 How did you develop it? 00:53:11.558 --> 00:53:11.618 Yeah, 00:53:12.398 --> 00:53:12.399 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:53:12.398 --> 00:53:13.088 yeah, yeah. 00:53:13.088 --> 00:53:13.958 So you're right. 00:53:13.958 --> 00:53:15.458 I mean, it's incredibly powerful. 00:53:15.458 --> 00:53:16.628 It's, it's, it's awesome. 00:53:16.628 --> 00:53:19.378 It's, it's really, really meaningful to me as well. 00:53:19.798 --> 00:53:27.088 And I had always wanted to train a dog that I had for this purpose. 00:53:27.628 --> 00:53:32.938 And I think it goes way back to my early childhood when I would sit with 00:53:32.938 --> 00:53:39.268 my dog, peanut for hours, hours as I was, you know, maybe recovering 00:53:39.268 --> 00:53:40.888 from a shunt revision or, oh. 00:53:41.653 --> 00:53:42.578 Or So your dog 00:53:42.598 --> 00:53:43.963 Rupert Isaacson: had a big part of your recovery. 00:53:44.293 --> 00:53:44.294 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:53:44.293 --> 00:53:46.543 Yes, abs a hundred percent. 00:53:46.603 --> 00:53:53.353 And so that I think is where the idea first came. 00:53:53.413 --> 00:53:56.623 You know, I was really, I mean obviously it was subconscious at that point, 00:53:56.623 --> 00:53:59.893 you know, when I was four I wasn't thinking, oh, I'm gonna train my dog 00:53:59.893 --> 00:54:01.573 to go to the hospital to visit kids. 00:54:01.573 --> 00:54:07.273 But that's really where the idea first formed, I'm sure of it. 00:54:07.333 --> 00:54:11.683 Because I would sit for hours with her and she would really be 00:54:11.683 --> 00:54:15.463 a primary support in helping me through some very difficult moments. 00:54:15.913 --> 00:54:17.263 So there was, so there was that. 00:54:17.683 --> 00:54:23.633 And then, you know, when we got Wally, who is my certified therapy dog to go out 00:54:23.633 --> 00:54:31.823 and work on this, on this animal assisted team, he, his disposition just felt right. 00:54:31.973 --> 00:54:35.693 And I also had an opportunity arise, right. 00:54:36.383 --> 00:54:41.233 When we got him to join a group of join a group where we were 00:54:41.293 --> 00:54:44.983 starting to do the basic obedience for this exact kind of work. 00:54:45.463 --> 00:54:48.343 And so I joined them and it was just, it was awesome. 00:54:48.343 --> 00:54:52.003 Like he, he took to it, you know, got all the obedience down. 00:54:52.483 --> 00:54:57.403 We worked in assisted living facilities for a year because he 00:54:57.403 --> 00:55:00.973 had to be two before he was ready to be eligible for children's. 00:55:01.273 --> 00:55:03.223 And it just evolved from there. 00:55:03.283 --> 00:55:11.323 And it's really, if not the most, one of the most meaningful things I do right now. 00:55:11.323 --> 00:55:13.303 I love my work with him out at the hospital. 00:55:13.303 --> 00:55:18.693 It's, it's so powerful to see a child who's struggling with 00:55:18.693 --> 00:55:23.463 whatever it might be, light up when they see the dog walk in. 00:55:24.003 --> 00:55:28.863 Or the child who's struggling with physical therapy at the end of a hall 00:55:28.893 --> 00:55:35.073 and really is, is not, not wanting to engage and not physically believing. 00:55:35.073 --> 00:55:40.173 They're able to engage, but then pointing at Wally and saying, I wanna pet the dog. 00:55:40.863 --> 00:55:41.343 And 00:55:41.403 --> 00:55:41.673 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:55:42.093 --> 00:55:42.094 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:55:42.093 --> 00:55:46.203 We stay at the other end of the hall and the child does it, you 00:55:46.203 --> 00:55:49.863 know, they, they, they walk down the hall so that they can pet the dog. 00:55:49.893 --> 00:55:52.023 It's, it's so they can pet wally. 00:55:52.023 --> 00:55:54.248 It's it's really powerful stuff and it's, it's, 00:55:54.248 --> 00:55:56.183 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, I mean that sort of motivation and of course 00:55:56.183 --> 00:56:01.253 the moment you, you are caressing another mammal your pet, you are of 00:56:01.253 --> 00:56:03.053 course getting oxytocin, you know? 00:56:03.053 --> 00:56:03.293 Yeah. 00:56:03.773 --> 00:56:06.673 We know this, you know but it's, and that's, you know, obviously one of 00:56:06.673 --> 00:56:09.913 the most healthful hormones we can have coursing through our bodies. 00:56:10.483 --> 00:56:10.484 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:56:10.483 --> 00:56:11.143 A hundred percent. 00:56:11.323 --> 00:56:11.413 Yes. 00:56:11.443 --> 00:56:12.073 Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting. 00:56:12.073 --> 00:56:14.923 Where did you discover, I mean obviously you had your own experience 00:56:14.923 --> 00:56:18.253 with this when you were a kid, but when did you discover the sort of more 00:56:18.253 --> 00:56:20.573 formalized world of animal assisted. 00:56:21.428 --> 00:56:24.128 Therapies and hey, how did you get involved in that? 00:56:24.998 --> 00:56:24.999 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:56:24.998 --> 00:56:26.498 Yeah, it's a great question. 00:56:26.498 --> 00:56:31.408 You know, so I did all of my early training as a psychologist out in 00:56:31.798 --> 00:56:36.148 hospitals in Boston some of the bigger hospitals, mass General Shriners Hospital 00:56:36.148 --> 00:56:41.488 for Children, Beth Israel Deaconess, and all of those places had, it was 00:56:41.818 --> 00:56:44.458 much, it was almost 20 years ago now. 00:56:44.458 --> 00:56:47.368 So animal assisted therapy wasn't quite. 00:56:48.058 --> 00:56:50.578 As prominent and as prevalent as it is today. 00:56:50.578 --> 00:56:52.468 But it was there, it was around. 00:56:52.558 --> 00:56:56.698 And so I'd always kind of observe and watch and Hmm, that's so cool. 00:56:56.698 --> 00:56:59.938 You know, and I would see the impact that the dogs were having 00:56:59.938 --> 00:57:01.588 for patients and, and such. 00:57:01.588 --> 00:57:05.198 So I think you know, I started learning about it at that point. 00:57:05.258 --> 00:57:08.918 And then, you know, we moved a lot with my husband's job and I, it, the 00:57:08.918 --> 00:57:14.998 timing just wasn't quite right for me to get actively involved until about 00:57:14.998 --> 00:57:16.738 four years ago when we got Wally. 00:57:16.798 --> 00:57:23.688 And I had the time, I had the puppy and I had the strong desire to make this real. 00:57:23.688 --> 00:57:26.208 So that's kind of how that happens. 00:57:28.218 --> 00:57:29.898 Rupert Isaacson: Do have you developed it since then? 00:57:29.958 --> 00:57:34.188 Are you part of any kind of group and when you're talking to parents 00:57:34.188 --> 00:57:38.208 that are looking for resilience, do you guide them towards animals? 00:57:39.258 --> 00:57:39.259 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:57:39.258 --> 00:57:40.758 Well, yeah, absolutely. 00:57:40.758 --> 00:57:41.278 I mean, you know. 00:57:42.123 --> 00:57:45.543 I don't know if I really guide them towards animals, but, well, 00:57:45.543 --> 00:57:48.333 actually, first, to answer your first question, I, I am part of a 00:57:48.333 --> 00:57:54.083 group a certification organization called a TD American Therapy Dogs. 00:57:54.293 --> 00:57:54.353 Okay. 00:57:54.503 --> 00:57:56.753 And they certify us. 00:57:56.753 --> 00:57:58.643 They're many groups out there, but that's the one that 00:57:58.643 --> 00:58:01.043 certifies for, that certifies me. 00:58:01.043 --> 00:58:05.003 And so there's a whole group of us here in Seattle that's part of that organization. 00:58:05.003 --> 00:58:06.443 So that piece is pretty fun. 00:58:06.833 --> 00:58:10.553 And we'll go out and do things together in schools and stuff like that. 00:58:10.943 --> 00:58:18.463 But you know, I don't necessarily direct folks clients outside of the 00:58:18.463 --> 00:58:23.173 hospital setting towards animals, but most of my clients have animals. 00:58:23.173 --> 00:58:27.923 And we do talk about the soothing, kind of relation aspect of the 00:58:27.923 --> 00:58:29.633 relationship and that sort of thing. 00:58:30.203 --> 00:58:33.713 But I will tell you that when I'm out in the hospital with Wally. 00:58:34.523 --> 00:58:40.533 You know, if a child is not really up for a visit or in a procedure, 00:58:40.533 --> 00:58:44.733 but the parent is there, I mean, they always run out into the hall to 00:58:44.733 --> 00:58:46.383 hang out with Wally for a little bit. 00:58:46.413 --> 00:58:50.293 I mean, so it's very, very powerful what he's bringing to 00:58:50.293 --> 00:58:53.653 them in addition to the, the kids. 00:58:54.073 --> 00:58:55.933 Rupert Isaacson: Why do animals make us more resilient? 00:58:57.163 --> 00:58:57.164 Dr. Kate Lund: 00:58:57.163 --> 00:59:02.293 Well, you know, I think it's because honestly, they're in the moment. 00:59:02.863 --> 00:59:05.323 They're showing up unconditionally. 00:59:05.323 --> 00:59:09.973 They're there for you and they're not thinking about what's just 00:59:09.973 --> 00:59:12.403 happened or what's gonna happen. 00:59:12.703 --> 00:59:21.163 They're in it, you know, and they're so well able to, I believe, pick 00:59:21.163 --> 00:59:26.263 up on, what somebody's emotional condition is in the moment. 00:59:26.713 --> 00:59:30.943 You know, I know that I feel it with, with Wally and me, you know, if I'm, 00:59:31.423 --> 00:59:35.293 you know, stressed or struggling with something on a given day, you know, 00:59:35.293 --> 00:59:40.653 he'll come up and, you know, well maybe put his head on my, on my on my lap. 00:59:40.803 --> 00:59:45.213 But like, if I am, you know, in a different space, you know, 00:59:45.783 --> 00:59:47.223 he'll, he'll respond differently. 00:59:47.433 --> 00:59:53.943 And I see he'll respond differently depending on what's happening for kids. 00:59:53.943 --> 00:59:55.563 He's visiting in the hospital too. 00:59:55.593 --> 01:00:00.733 If he notices that a kid is really withdrawn or struggling with something, 01:00:00.793 --> 01:00:05.983 he'll literally come in and pop his head on their knee, for example. 01:00:06.763 --> 01:00:10.813 Whereas if a kid is, you know, smiling and saying, come here, come here. 01:00:11.143 --> 01:00:13.963 You know, he'll go in a bit more robustly. 01:00:14.383 --> 01:00:15.973 He'll offer them his paw. 01:00:16.453 --> 01:00:19.963 You know, it's just these, these, these subtle, subtle differences, 01:00:19.963 --> 01:00:22.303 subtle shifts in how he's showing up. 01:00:22.663 --> 01:00:28.033 But the, the fact is, the bottom line is animals always show up. 01:00:28.493 --> 01:00:31.973 And I really do think that they're able to, to discern 01:00:32.363 --> 01:00:34.763 what we need in given moments. 01:00:34.943 --> 01:00:39.443 And they're not bogged down by like the baggage of what's happened or the 01:00:39.443 --> 01:00:41.603 fear and worry about what's coming. 01:00:42.893 --> 01:00:45.533 Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that we, on a, on a subconscious level, just take that 01:00:45.533 --> 01:00:50.183 on so that by seeing the animal constantly showing up, it allows us to show up? 01:00:50.183 --> 01:00:53.423 It teaches us or shows us how to show up? 01:00:54.708 --> 01:00:54.709 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:00:54.708 --> 01:00:55.553 Oh, I think so. 01:00:55.553 --> 01:00:56.093 Yes. 01:00:56.123 --> 01:00:58.973 I think for sure, particularly in those moments. 01:00:59.543 --> 01:01:05.123 And then if we're able to take that a step further and really recognize 01:01:05.123 --> 01:01:11.363 what's happening, then that can be a really powerful reminder to us. 01:01:11.783 --> 01:01:15.383 To show up even when the animal isn't present, if that makes sense. 01:01:15.773 --> 01:01:16.793 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely. 01:01:17.183 --> 01:01:17.693 No, I do. 01:01:17.903 --> 01:01:20.753 And I, you know, our, our minds are so open to metaphor. 01:01:21.183 --> 01:01:23.823 Metaphor is the, is the human thing really, isn't it? 01:01:23.933 --> 01:01:25.013 The storytelling ape. 01:01:25.553 --> 01:01:28.493 I think it's worth considering this thing that yeah, animals sort of 01:01:28.493 --> 01:01:32.393 lead by example, but that we do actually follow those examples. 01:01:32.393 --> 01:01:39.493 And I, I guess our, our language is sort of peppered with metaphors and sayings 01:01:39.493 --> 01:01:43.168 of one kind or another adjectives, you know, that, that describe being like 01:01:43.168 --> 01:01:44.773 this animal or being like that animal. 01:01:45.203 --> 01:01:49.083 And sometimes it's negative, you know, you dirty pig or whatever you swine. 01:01:49.513 --> 01:01:52.543 But although actually pigs are so charming, it's, it's always 01:01:52.543 --> 01:01:53.833 struck me as an odd one, that one. 01:01:54.223 --> 01:01:59.703 But normally we use animal stuff quite positively. 01:02:00.093 --> 01:02:00.843 It seems. 01:02:01.383 --> 01:02:05.133 Okay, so you, let's just go back to your book and your, and your practice. 01:02:05.973 --> 01:02:09.993 You, you give people these relaxation techniques to get 01:02:09.993 --> 01:02:11.283 them to a sort of calm baseline. 01:02:11.493 --> 01:02:11.613 Mm-hmm. 01:02:11.853 --> 01:02:16.923 You, you give them the visualizations some of which involve nature. 01:02:17.493 --> 01:02:20.283 You have your own practice of course, which does involve animal assisted 01:02:21.843 --> 01:02:26.943 going through your book Now, what's the next stage in resilience, parenting? 01:02:26.943 --> 01:02:30.753 Here I am, you know, feeling un resilient in my parenting moment. 01:02:30.753 --> 01:02:33.753 And sometimes I still do, you know, despite the fact that my son's doing 01:02:33.753 --> 01:02:37.983 really well, and so I'm not always feeling resilient, you know, so of 01:02:37.983 --> 01:02:37.984 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:02:37.983 --> 01:02:38.493 course 01:02:38.523 --> 01:02:41.133 Rupert Isaacson: what's, what's, what's the next stage? 01:02:42.033 --> 01:02:42.034 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:02:42.033 --> 01:02:44.133 And that's, and that's a great point that you mentioned, you 01:02:44.133 --> 01:02:45.213 know, 'cause 'cause it's true. 01:02:45.213 --> 01:02:49.143 'cause we're not always feeling resilient, even if we're building, you know? 01:02:49.143 --> 01:02:49.203 Yeah. 01:02:49.233 --> 01:02:54.003 These skills into our life and experience on a foundational level, they're 01:02:54.003 --> 01:02:56.433 gonna be moments when we don't feel. 01:02:57.228 --> 01:02:57.858 Resilient. 01:02:58.038 --> 01:02:58.488 Rupert Isaacson: Sometimes 01:02:58.488 --> 01:02:58.489 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:02:58.488 --> 01:02:58.668 more than 01:02:59.033 --> 01:02:59.233 Rupert Isaacson: moments. 01:02:59.373 --> 01:02:59.593 Yes. 01:02:59.793 --> 01:02:59.794 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:02:59.793 --> 01:03:00.273 Well, exactly. 01:03:00.273 --> 01:03:00.753 Exactly. 01:03:00.973 --> 01:03:01.193 Yes. 01:03:01.333 --> 01:03:01.553 Yes. 01:03:01.578 --> 01:03:02.838 Sometimes more than moments. 01:03:02.838 --> 01:03:04.308 And trust me, I, I, I get this. 01:03:04.308 --> 01:03:04.368 Yeah. 01:03:04.698 --> 01:03:07.668 And, and so, you know, it's, it's a question of really 01:03:07.668 --> 01:03:08.928 building these things in. 01:03:08.928 --> 01:03:11.238 So you mentioned some of the, some of the key ones. 01:03:11.238 --> 01:03:14.628 You know, the, the nature piece, the visualizations, the 01:03:14.628 --> 01:03:16.428 managing our stress response. 01:03:16.968 --> 01:03:23.538 You know, we're encouraging folks to have some sort of social support. 01:03:23.598 --> 01:03:27.798 We know the power of social support in building our resilience, 01:03:27.798 --> 01:03:29.718 our resilient lifestyle. 01:03:30.048 --> 01:03:34.398 You know, whether that looks like can, because you see the thing is with 01:03:34.398 --> 01:03:36.438 social connection, we can be moving. 01:03:36.753 --> 01:03:39.543 Through life so fast, we can be bogged down. 01:03:39.543 --> 01:03:42.453 We can be overwhelmed that we just think, Hmm, it's not important. 01:03:42.483 --> 01:03:43.233 I don't have time. 01:03:43.593 --> 01:03:43.833 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:03:43.833 --> 01:03:43.834 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:03:43.833 --> 01:03:49.743 Really it is important to intentionally try to carve out that time, make 01:03:50.013 --> 01:03:56.313 some sort of connection as often as possible to have that, that 01:03:56.313 --> 01:03:58.383 context of social support in place. 01:03:58.383 --> 01:04:04.083 You know, whether it's a phone call to an old friend or if it's a coffee 01:04:04.383 --> 01:04:08.913 at the local coffee shop with an acquaintance or a friend, whether it's 01:04:08.913 --> 01:04:14.623 joining a group, a parent parenting group related to a challenge that you're 01:04:14.623 --> 01:04:16.543 having or a hobby or something fun. 01:04:16.543 --> 01:04:21.803 You know, I've got a group of friends who gets together on Sunday 01:04:21.803 --> 01:04:26.843 mornings and I'm often not able to join, but to go hiking or walking 01:04:26.843 --> 01:04:28.523 their parents from the same school. 01:04:28.523 --> 01:04:33.023 You know, it's that kind of a thing just to kind of have that connection. 01:04:33.638 --> 01:04:38.258 However you're gonna get in touch with it is really powerful in 01:04:38.258 --> 01:04:44.258 terms of normalizing the fact that, yeah, life isn't easy necessarily. 01:04:44.558 --> 01:04:48.248 Things get hard, and that's okay. 01:04:48.248 --> 01:04:49.688 And here's what helped me. 01:04:49.748 --> 01:04:54.248 And not that there's a one size fits all, but having ideas and thoughts around it. 01:04:54.248 --> 01:04:58.448 So, so social support, social connection is a really important piece of, of 01:04:58.448 --> 01:05:00.008 what we talk about in here as well. 01:05:01.148 --> 01:05:04.558 Rupert Isaacson: If you made it this far into the podcast, then I'm 01:05:04.558 --> 01:05:09.238 guessing you're somebody that, like me, loves to read books about not 01:05:09.238 --> 01:05:13.138 just how people have achieved self actualization, but particularly 01:05:13.158 --> 01:05:16.848 about the relationship with nature. 01:05:17.298 --> 01:05:20.478 Spirituality, life, the universe, and everything. 01:05:21.218 --> 01:05:24.168 And I'd like to draw your attention to my books. 01:05:24.178 --> 01:05:28.858 If you would like to read the story of how we even arrived here, perhaps 01:05:28.858 --> 01:05:33.318 you'd like to check out the two New York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy 01:05:34.018 --> 01:05:38.988 and The Long Ride Home, and come on an adventure with us and see what engendered, 01:05:39.048 --> 01:05:41.198 what started Live Free Ride Free. 01:05:41.218 --> 01:05:44.998 And before we go back to the podcast, also check out The Healing 01:05:44.998 --> 01:05:47.488 Land, which tells the story of. 01:05:48.193 --> 01:05:53.583 My years spent in the Kalahari with the Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people 01:05:53.583 --> 01:05:57.743 there, and all that they taught me, and mentored me in, and all that I learned. 01:05:57.993 --> 01:05:59.253 Come on that adventure with me. 01:05:59.277 --> 01:06:00.997 Now let's talk about crisis. 01:06:01.057 --> 01:06:05.767 So there are times when things become so pressing that or 01:06:06.007 --> 01:06:07.207 everything goes outta the window. 01:06:07.387 --> 01:06:07.388 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:06:07.387 --> 01:06:07.477 Mm-hmm. 01:06:07.747 --> 01:06:09.787 Rupert Isaacson: And one hasn't the bandwidth for anything 01:06:09.787 --> 01:06:11.797 other than straight up survival. 01:06:12.277 --> 01:06:12.278 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:06:12.277 --> 01:06:12.367 Mm-hmm. 01:06:12.877 --> 01:06:14.797 Rupert Isaacson: When people are in that kind of mode. 01:06:15.097 --> 01:06:16.537 Again, what are your recommendations? 01:06:18.352 --> 01:06:18.353 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:06:18.352 --> 01:06:24.802 We wanna make sure that they understand when it's necessary to elicit professional 01:06:24.802 --> 01:06:30.352 support, you know, or, you know, call 9 1 1 or go to a local emergency room 01:06:30.352 --> 01:06:32.332 if we're in that level of crisis. 01:06:32.422 --> 01:06:32.782 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:06:32.782 --> 01:06:32.783 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:06:32.782 --> 01:06:40.042 But if it's, if it's not at that point, but rather a point where folks 01:06:40.042 --> 01:06:44.272 are so bogged down, so overwhelmed that there's really not any bandwidth 01:06:44.272 --> 01:06:51.202 for anything else, it's a question of doing the best they can in those 01:06:51.202 --> 01:07:01.012 moments to move forward or just be as best they can without, without that 01:07:01.012 --> 01:07:05.602 added stress of, well, I should be doing this, I have to be doing that. 01:07:05.632 --> 01:07:10.012 Sometimes we just need to be, so there's that. 01:07:10.657 --> 01:07:14.437 Not putting that external pressure on them, you know, internal pressure 01:07:14.437 --> 01:07:18.517 or going for, like, I have to do more if, if in that moment they just can't. 01:07:18.997 --> 01:07:23.317 But I wanna, you know, make sure that folks are aware that, you know, there 01:07:23.317 --> 01:07:28.777 are those moments where they should, you know, go to a local emergency room 01:07:28.777 --> 01:07:30.907 or call 9 1 1, that kind of thing. 01:07:30.907 --> 01:07:33.487 But I don't know, does that answer the, the question? 01:07:33.487 --> 01:07:33.937 Because there are, 01:07:33.937 --> 01:07:36.807 Rupert Isaacson: well, yeah, I'm, I'm just wondering if whe because you know, 01:07:36.807 --> 01:07:40.047 when, when once amygdala is really activated while it's full of cortisol 01:07:40.257 --> 01:07:41.967 or it's not capable of rational thought. 01:07:42.567 --> 01:07:42.568 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:07:42.567 --> 01:07:42.717 Mm-hmm. 01:07:43.087 --> 01:07:46.807 Rupert Isaacson: And you can be highly intelligent, highly educated. 01:07:47.227 --> 01:07:47.287 Yeah. 01:07:47.647 --> 01:07:54.127 And behave like an absolute idiot because the neurotoxins in your 01:07:54.127 --> 01:07:57.367 brain with the cortisol are simply preventing you from reasoning. 01:07:57.937 --> 01:07:57.938 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:07:57.937 --> 01:07:58.027 Mm-hmm. 01:07:58.247 --> 01:07:59.207 Rupert Isaacson: Do you have 01:08:01.337 --> 01:08:04.127 things that help in that mode? 01:08:04.922 --> 01:08:10.202 To sort of bring one back to oneself so that one can actually figure one one's 01:08:10.202 --> 01:08:13.112 way through and get out of reaction. 01:08:14.882 --> 01:08:14.883 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:08:14.882 --> 01:08:19.112 Well, you know, it's, it's managing the stress response on a consistent basis that 01:08:19.112 --> 01:08:21.302 we uhhuh come back to in those moments. 01:08:21.752 --> 01:08:24.542 That really is kind of leveling out. 01:08:24.692 --> 01:08:31.892 But, you know, if somebody is in a space where, you know, they're, they're so 01:08:31.892 --> 01:08:38.032 far escalated, so escalated to the point of shutdown, you know, the, the reality 01:08:38.032 --> 01:08:42.292 is it's gonna take a little bit more to get back to that modulated space. 01:08:42.292 --> 01:08:48.532 But that's the, that's the first go-to, to get back to that modulated space. 01:08:49.642 --> 01:08:50.152 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:08:50.252 --> 01:08:56.297 If, if you yourself are driven to the wall, I'm sure it's happens occasionally. 01:08:56.717 --> 01:08:58.217 What's your. 01:08:58.937 --> 01:08:59.447 Go to. 01:09:00.827 --> 01:09:00.828 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:09:00.827 --> 01:09:03.567 Yeah, that's a great a great, great question. 01:09:03.567 --> 01:09:07.017 And it's true, you know, sometimes I am bogged down and driven to the wall. 01:09:07.357 --> 01:09:08.167 So it depends. 01:09:09.067 --> 01:09:11.347 Sometimes it's getting out for a long walk. 01:09:11.917 --> 01:09:12.937 Sometimes it's, don't move 01:09:13.387 --> 01:09:13.747 Rupert Isaacson: it again, 01:09:13.747 --> 01:09:13.748 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:09:13.747 --> 01:09:13.767 nature again. 01:09:13.807 --> 01:09:14.617 Yep, yep. 01:09:14.677 --> 01:09:15.787 Nature movement. 01:09:16.087 --> 01:09:17.737 Sometimes it's jumping on my bike. 01:09:18.207 --> 01:09:23.607 But if I've been super active and I've put a large number of miles in 01:09:23.607 --> 01:09:29.517 on my bike or a large number of miles on walk-in and, and I know that my 01:09:29.517 --> 01:09:31.317 body is a little bit exhausted too. 01:09:31.947 --> 01:09:32.007 Rupert Isaacson: Hmm. 01:09:32.067 --> 01:09:32.068 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:09:32.067 --> 01:09:32.967 I might take a nap. 01:09:33.567 --> 01:09:33.717 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:09:33.817 --> 01:09:33.818 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:09:33.817 --> 01:09:39.977 I might tune out with my favorite podcast or something along those lines. 01:09:40.157 --> 01:09:40.487 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:09:40.537 --> 01:09:40.538 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:09:40.537 --> 01:09:43.897 You know, I might kind of do something like that. 01:09:43.897 --> 01:09:48.427 So it kind of is situationally dependent, but oftentimes 01:09:48.427 --> 01:09:50.617 there's movement, there's nature. 01:09:50.692 --> 01:09:52.462 But sometimes there's an app. 01:09:53.212 --> 01:09:56.152 Rupert Isaacson: Well, but yeah, I think what you just described there, so if you 01:09:56.152 --> 01:10:03.982 have, if one's all pent up that desire or, or, or the ameliorative effect 01:10:04.012 --> 01:10:08.632 of really hard exercise, okay, then we're gonna get some neuroplasticity. 01:10:08.632 --> 01:10:11.332 That's going to create a brain change, right? 01:10:11.792 --> 01:10:15.572 But then also of course, we're gonna end up with happy hormones. 01:10:16.062 --> 01:10:19.282 We're gonna end up with endorphins that are going to 01:10:20.512 --> 01:10:22.822 allow us then to pause and reset. 01:10:22.822 --> 01:10:23.662 That's the nap. 01:10:24.712 --> 01:10:27.892 And then that's a reset of the nervous system. 01:10:28.702 --> 01:10:33.502 Meanwhile, because you just did that hard exercise, that neuroplasticity has 01:10:33.502 --> 01:10:35.512 a certain knock on, carry on effect. 01:10:35.512 --> 01:10:40.402 So even while you're napping or tuning out to that podcast that neuroplasticity sort 01:10:40.402 --> 01:10:46.162 of keeps, keeps going, and then you can sort of come out of that at the other end. 01:10:47.092 --> 01:10:48.382 With a bit of a different brain. 01:10:48.872 --> 01:10:52.052 But I, I, so I think what you just described is very sound from a, 01:10:52.052 --> 01:10:54.092 from a neurological point of view. 01:10:54.542 --> 01:10:56.162 It's just that, you know, I think a lot of people don't 01:10:56.162 --> 01:10:57.212 necessarily have access to that. 01:10:57.272 --> 01:11:02.012 And it interesting you talk about napping because in the stoic school of Wasp 01:11:02.012 --> 01:11:04.322 fish culture, we're not supposed to nap. 01:11:04.352 --> 01:11:05.432 That's a sign of weakness. 01:11:05.432 --> 01:11:08.042 You know, we're supposed to flog ourselves and keep going 01:11:08.042 --> 01:11:09.032 and keep going and keep going. 01:11:09.122 --> 01:11:14.062 And this, I, you, you might be aware of what Google apparently used to call 01:11:14.572 --> 01:11:17.992 on in its campus 20% time, apparently. 01:11:18.382 --> 01:11:22.332 Back in the early days people employed on the campus would be 01:11:22.332 --> 01:11:27.012 allowed to spend 20% of their day not working because it was known. 01:11:27.642 --> 01:11:30.522 Among the upper management, that it was in that sort of daydreaming 01:11:30.522 --> 01:11:33.852 time or doing something else that people came up with their best ideas 01:11:34.272 --> 01:11:36.132 and those ideas belong to Google. 01:11:36.282 --> 01:11:38.932 So you could sort of do anything that you wanted to and apparently 01:11:38.932 --> 01:11:41.212 that's how Gmail came into being. 01:11:41.512 --> 01:11:43.432 But I guess what you're really talking about there to some 01:11:43.432 --> 01:11:44.632 degree is also myelination. 01:11:44.632 --> 01:11:44.932 Right? 01:11:45.032 --> 01:11:51.932 So, you know, myelin being the fatty tissue that grows around new neuron 01:11:52.022 --> 01:11:56.852 connections when they're made, which are a bit fragile to begin with, you know? 01:11:56.852 --> 01:12:02.252 And then as we rest that fatty tissue, like a sort of insulation cable. 01:12:02.732 --> 01:12:05.582 Comes around them and then makes them secure, and then 01:12:05.582 --> 01:12:07.082 we've got a new neural pathway. 01:12:07.562 --> 01:12:14.492 Without that nap, it's very difficult for those neurons to remain connected. 01:12:14.492 --> 01:12:18.972 And so what we learned, or so it might, we might forget it, we might lose it. 01:12:20.342 --> 01:12:25.802 How do you deal with when people are very, very resistant to the idea of the nap? 01:12:25.802 --> 01:12:28.322 I'm a great believer in it, but I'm a late comer to it. 01:12:28.382 --> 01:12:32.162 You know, I, I, for years would never allow myself to, and I remember people 01:12:32.162 --> 01:12:36.032 sort of trying to encourage me to do that, and I'd absolutely blow that out away. 01:12:36.362 --> 01:12:39.542 And then I realized that that was just really stupid. 01:12:39.962 --> 01:12:41.702 But, you know, this is in our culture, 01:12:41.942 --> 01:12:41.943 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:12:41.942 --> 01:12:42.182 Right. 01:12:42.482 --> 01:12:45.242 Rupert Isaacson: The workaholic, the, the, the self martyrdom, all that. 01:12:45.362 --> 01:12:46.442 How do you help people through that? 01:12:47.372 --> 01:12:47.373 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:12:47.372 --> 01:12:52.752 Yeah, it's, it's again, it's an important question and no one size fits all, per se. 01:12:53.532 --> 01:12:57.452 I, I have been slow to come to the nap too, because, you know, you always 01:12:57.452 --> 01:12:59.432 just wanna be moving forward and Wow. 01:12:59.432 --> 01:13:00.392 What do you, what does that mean? 01:13:00.392 --> 01:13:03.902 But I have felt the power, the benefits in it. 01:13:03.902 --> 01:13:03.962 Yeah. 01:13:04.062 --> 01:13:08.382 My husband's always been a napper, you know, and so it's, it's so fascinating. 01:13:08.382 --> 01:13:08.652 Right. 01:13:08.652 --> 01:13:11.802 And to recognize, yeah. 01:13:11.802 --> 01:13:12.222 Wow. 01:13:12.222 --> 01:13:12.402 Okay. 01:13:12.402 --> 01:13:16.002 So that was a great thing that he was doing as opposed to, 01:13:16.242 --> 01:13:17.442 why are you napping so much? 01:13:18.012 --> 01:13:18.797 This, you know, it's like, whatcha doing? 01:13:19.217 --> 01:13:21.192 Rupert Isaacson: Do you have to write him an apology letter now for all the 01:13:21.192 --> 01:13:22.722 times that you ed on him for napping? 01:13:24.732 --> 01:13:24.733 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:13:24.732 --> 01:13:27.162 I think, I think I was able to apologize verbally. 01:13:27.162 --> 01:13:30.462 It was fine, but Yeah, no, it, we laugh about that. 01:13:30.462 --> 01:13:31.152 It's pretty funny. 01:13:31.372 --> 01:13:36.142 But, you know, again, it's, it's kind of trying to introduce the potential 01:13:36.142 --> 01:13:39.842 benefits and recognizing that, you know. 01:13:40.987 --> 01:13:44.887 All of these shifts, all of these changes that folks make have 01:13:44.887 --> 01:13:46.357 to come from the inside out. 01:13:46.777 --> 01:13:52.457 So it's educating, it's giving examples of, you know, why this 01:13:52.457 --> 01:13:57.617 could be beneficial and encouraging folks to try it in small bites. 01:13:57.622 --> 01:13:57.632 Mm-hmm. 01:13:58.187 --> 01:13:59.627 And seeing what happens. 01:13:59.677 --> 01:14:04.057 Because we like to have folks integrate changes which feel daunting or 01:14:04.057 --> 01:14:10.987 overwhelming, or like, they're not aligned in small bite-size pieces so 01:14:10.987 --> 01:14:16.297 that they can integrate them over time because the, there's no button that 01:14:16.297 --> 01:14:20.707 they can push to be like, oh, I can feel the benefits of a nap and I'm a napper 01:14:20.707 --> 01:14:21.967 now, you know, that kind of a thing. 01:14:21.967 --> 01:14:23.827 So yeah, it's a process. 01:14:24.667 --> 01:14:25.867 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely. 01:14:26.107 --> 01:14:31.387 What, what is the number one biggest hurdle to resilience that you see? 01:14:33.487 --> 01:14:33.488 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:14:33.487 --> 01:14:34.807 You know, it's. 01:14:35.557 --> 01:14:45.277 Folks having trouble slowing down to the point of understanding what they need 01:14:46.057 --> 01:14:53.887 to be at their best, what they need to optimize their overall sense of wellbeing. 01:14:54.337 --> 01:15:04.177 So it's a process to help folks to slow down and kind of explore what those 01:15:04.177 --> 01:15:09.167 things are and then integrate them over time to build that sense of awareness 01:15:09.287 --> 01:15:12.437 of what they need to be at their best. 01:15:12.682 --> 01:15:13.102 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:15:14.232 --> 01:15:15.412 The slowing down again. 01:15:15.672 --> 01:15:15.673 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:15:15.672 --> 01:15:16.092 Mm-hmm. 01:15:16.362 --> 01:15:16.652 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:15:16.672 --> 01:15:18.137 The breathing, the perspective. 01:15:18.887 --> 01:15:18.888 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:15:18.887 --> 01:15:19.307 Yes. 01:15:19.307 --> 01:15:25.337 And, and yes, the perspective and creating that space to gain perspective 01:15:26.027 --> 01:15:30.977 and to even gain perspective on what it looks like to be at your best. 01:15:32.132 --> 01:15:37.772 Sometimes we're so used to functioning in a suboptimal place that we don't 01:15:37.772 --> 01:15:41.222 recognize that there's more is possible. 01:15:41.492 --> 01:15:41.852 You know, 01:15:42.542 --> 01:15:42.932 Rupert Isaacson: it's true. 01:15:42.932 --> 01:15:45.932 We get very used to existing in that sort of cortisol state. 01:15:45.932 --> 01:15:46.592 We're good at it. 01:15:46.622 --> 01:15:47.912 I mean, I guess we are resilient. 01:15:48.692 --> 01:15:48.782 Yes. 01:15:48.782 --> 01:15:49.772 Humans are resilient. 01:15:50.027 --> 01:15:55.622 Uhhuh, do you, okay, so just bring it back to parenting. 01:15:56.522 --> 01:15:57.182 So 01:16:00.632 --> 01:16:04.352 in an ideal world, we have two parents but those two parents 01:16:04.352 --> 01:16:05.792 are not always on the same page. 01:16:07.022 --> 01:16:07.023 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:16:07.022 --> 01:16:07.232 Right. 01:16:07.352 --> 01:16:11.912 Rupert Isaacson: When the parents are beginning to battle about 01:16:11.912 --> 01:16:20.372 the best way forward for a child this of course can escalate it. 01:16:20.432 --> 01:16:20.582 Yeah. 01:16:20.582 --> 01:16:22.202 We don't need to say much more. 01:16:24.092 --> 01:16:26.522 I should imagine a certain, you know, a fair amount of 01:16:26.552 --> 01:16:29.732 your work is dealing with this 01:16:30.572 --> 01:16:30.573 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:16:30.572 --> 01:16:30.662 mm-hmm. 01:16:30.992 --> 01:16:33.362 Rupert Isaacson: In your book, how do you help people through that? 01:16:34.862 --> 01:16:34.863 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:16:34.862 --> 01:16:35.612 Well, you 01:16:35.612 --> 01:16:36.572 Rupert Isaacson: know, apart from just telling them to 01:16:36.572 --> 01:16:37.802 go to counseling, you know? 01:16:39.182 --> 01:16:39.183 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:16:39.182 --> 01:16:39.512 Right. 01:16:39.872 --> 01:16:40.232 Yeah. 01:16:40.232 --> 01:16:45.622 You know, so it's, well, so the book has case examples throughout 01:16:45.622 --> 01:16:47.332 to illustrate main points. 01:16:47.722 --> 01:16:47.752 Okay. 01:16:47.802 --> 01:16:54.402 And so in the scenario that you just described, communication is key, right. 01:16:54.942 --> 01:16:56.772 And not always easy, right? 01:16:56.777 --> 01:16:57.127 Well, yes. 01:16:57.342 --> 01:16:58.107 Not always easy. 01:16:58.107 --> 01:16:59.322 In a perfect world, yes. 01:16:59.322 --> 01:17:05.922 Communication between the spouses that are the two parents that are not on the same 01:17:05.922 --> 01:17:08.592 page in terms of the best way forward. 01:17:09.042 --> 01:17:12.717 So we encourage communication to, to the. 01:17:13.527 --> 01:17:14.727 Extent possible. 01:17:15.027 --> 01:17:19.977 We also recognize that we're gonna have different ways, perhaps, of viewing things 01:17:20.037 --> 01:17:24.947 that might cause tension, angst difficult relationships to get more difficult. 01:17:25.817 --> 01:17:31.817 But one thing that's really important is to mm, try to work those differences out. 01:17:31.942 --> 01:17:36.107 Come to a, a, a common understanding away from the children. 01:17:36.107 --> 01:17:40.157 So not being, not having those difficult discussions in front of the kids. 01:17:40.517 --> 01:17:49.127 And also then trying to help each parent to understand the 01:17:49.127 --> 01:17:50.807 other a little bit more fully. 01:17:51.317 --> 01:17:57.057 Except that we might have different ways of looking at things and what's the middle 01:17:57.057 --> 01:17:59.307 ground, you know, those types of things. 01:17:59.307 --> 01:18:00.477 It's, it's a process. 01:18:00.507 --> 01:18:04.677 There's no one size fits all, and there's no one perfect answer. 01:18:05.097 --> 01:18:10.407 But it's really coming up with a compromise, a middle ground between 01:18:10.407 --> 01:18:14.337 the different ways of looking at things and going from there. 01:18:14.557 --> 01:18:20.827 And that really happens through a willingness to listen and try 01:18:20.827 --> 01:18:26.047 to understand the other person and accept that there's more than 01:18:26.047 --> 01:18:29.107 one way to make something happen. 01:18:29.557 --> 01:18:32.277 Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you give people techniques for that listening? 01:18:33.837 --> 01:18:33.838 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:18:33.837 --> 01:18:36.237 You know, it's listening. 01:18:36.297 --> 01:18:42.987 It's sometimes journaling on our response to our. 01:18:43.617 --> 01:18:48.457 Spouse or our co-parents or whatever, their way of doing things, they're kind 01:18:48.457 --> 01:18:51.687 of thoughts about how something should be. 01:18:51.947 --> 01:18:55.727 The other thing that's really important, and not to be a broken record on this, 01:18:55.727 --> 01:19:00.767 but to be showing up in that level space to be modulating our stress, 01:19:00.827 --> 01:19:08.627 our stress response, and to try to show up in an optimized space, in 01:19:08.627 --> 01:19:15.557 an optimized way ourselves, so that we're better able to engage in these 01:19:15.737 --> 01:19:19.937 conversations, in these discussions, in these areas, which are more challenging. 01:19:22.127 --> 01:19:26.367 Rupert Isaacson: You know, someone once gave me a really good technique, which was 01:19:28.497 --> 01:19:32.877 helpful to me when I was in a situation where I, I, I, I was finding it very 01:19:32.877 --> 01:19:36.417 hard to listen, and the other person was finding it very hard to listen to me. 01:19:36.987 --> 01:19:42.477 And you know that that's not optimal, but things have just moved to a point where, 01:19:42.717 --> 01:19:51.807 boy, and what they said to me was, ask yourself, where's the awesome in this? 01:19:52.497 --> 01:19:59.307 And like, just from a purely selfish perspective, where is the 01:19:59.367 --> 01:20:01.947 op hidden opportunity here for me? 01:20:03.307 --> 01:20:09.337 Even amid, among this hostility where it seems that you are not 01:20:09.667 --> 01:20:13.297 there, there, there is no opportunity other than to try and survive it. 01:20:14.077 --> 01:20:21.907 But just to ask that question, is it possible that there is something, there's 01:20:21.907 --> 01:20:28.207 some little golden nugget in here that is actually a key to my own freedom. 01:20:28.207 --> 01:20:29.197 And if so. 01:20:30.847 --> 01:20:34.867 Should I not listen quite closely to see if that's there? 01:20:34.867 --> 01:20:36.547 And that made perfect sense to me. 01:20:36.547 --> 01:20:40.567 It was funny, it, it, of all the things that I was told, 01:20:40.567 --> 01:20:42.067 that one really resonated. 01:20:42.067 --> 01:20:45.427 I think partly because also I have a background of living with 01:20:45.427 --> 01:20:47.947 hunting and gathering people and this idea of tracking. 01:20:47.947 --> 01:20:47.948 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:20:47.947 --> 01:20:48.847 Mm-hmm. 01:20:48.847 --> 01:20:49.927 Rupert Isaacson: Constantly tracking. 01:20:50.587 --> 01:20:50.588 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:20:50.587 --> 01:20:50.647 Yeah. 01:20:50.727 --> 01:20:53.217 Rupert Isaacson: But it's very hard to track Well, if you're upset 'cause 01:20:53.247 --> 01:20:54.597 you're not following the signs. 01:20:54.597 --> 01:20:54.777 Yeah. 01:20:55.177 --> 01:20:55.178 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:20:55.177 --> 01:20:55.342 Right, right. 01:20:55.797 --> 01:20:59.607 Rupert Isaacson: So just to stop and ask oneself that, and that became 01:20:59.607 --> 01:21:01.797 a habit which I then found helpful. 01:21:02.667 --> 01:21:08.907 But, you know, by no means foolproof, but it definitely helped me avoid 01:21:09.687 --> 01:21:16.137 falling into cycles of conflict or bitterness or, knee jerky sort. 01:21:16.167 --> 01:21:20.457 Well, all like, so you have your knee jerk, but then you have your paws and 01:21:20.457 --> 01:21:26.277 your, but it, it, it, it, it was that piece of advice that, that, that helped. 01:21:26.667 --> 01:21:29.277 I wonder if that's similar to perhaps your 01:21:29.937 --> 01:21:33.597 your thinking of the word that brings you pleasure and joy. 01:21:34.317 --> 01:21:34.318 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:21:34.317 --> 01:21:34.377 Hmm. 01:21:34.857 --> 01:21:37.197 Rupert Isaacson: And thinking of the thing that brings you pleasure and joy. 01:21:37.917 --> 01:21:41.427 That it allows you a moment of perspective. 01:21:42.117 --> 01:21:42.118 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:21:42.117 --> 01:21:42.507 Yes. 01:21:42.777 --> 01:21:45.477 Rupert Isaacson: Which is very difficult to do when the adrenaline is rising. 01:21:46.437 --> 01:21:46.438 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:21:46.437 --> 01:21:46.887 Yeah. 01:21:47.217 --> 01:21:50.457 Rupert Isaacson: But nonetheless, if, if that's a sort of a muscle one can 01:21:51.747 --> 01:21:56.247 exercise and strengthen to some degree a sort of response, a neurological response, 01:21:56.247 --> 01:21:58.827 one can almost like a muscle memory. 01:21:59.367 --> 01:21:59.368 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:21:59.367 --> 01:21:59.967 Yeah, yeah. 01:21:59.967 --> 01:22:00.237 Yeah. 01:22:00.237 --> 01:22:04.467 Because creating that space, that perspective allows us. 01:22:05.022 --> 01:22:08.292 To respond as opposed to react, particularly when 01:22:08.292 --> 01:22:09.462 we're on different pages. 01:22:09.792 --> 01:22:11.262 Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes. 01:22:11.652 --> 01:22:16.182 And it's so funny, you know, I can, I can catch myself sometimes in the sort 01:22:16.182 --> 01:22:21.642 of everyday stuff that goes on thinking, oh, I didn't do that there, I didn't, 01:22:22.152 --> 01:22:28.542 I didn't have that pause between my reaction and my response or so, you 01:22:28.542 --> 01:22:34.932 know, that if I had only just paused a moment and separated myself for only a 01:22:34.932 --> 01:22:40.692 nanosecond from the reaction, then my response would've been so much better. 01:22:41.512 --> 01:22:43.732 But I suppose at least I do think those things these days, whereas 01:22:43.732 --> 01:22:45.382 in the old days, I wouldn't have thought about that at all. 01:22:46.377 --> 01:22:46.378 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:22:46.377 --> 01:22:47.242 Right, right. 01:22:47.242 --> 01:22:48.622 And it's, it's a process, right? 01:22:48.622 --> 01:22:50.092 And so shifting in that, yeah. 01:22:50.212 --> 01:22:51.172 Direction, I love it. 01:22:51.412 --> 01:22:51.742 Cool. 01:22:52.102 --> 01:22:54.412 Rupert Isaacson: And I think, I think that's the important thing about a, a book 01:22:54.412 --> 01:22:59.952 like yours in that it does give people chance to bring their attention there. 01:23:01.632 --> 01:23:01.633 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:23:01.632 --> 01:23:01.932 Yes. 01:23:01.992 --> 01:23:03.462 Rupert Isaacson: What is it they say in law of attraction? 01:23:03.522 --> 01:23:07.032 You know, energy goes where attention flows, where attention goes or, or 01:23:07.032 --> 01:23:10.542 something like that, that you know, when you put your eyes on a particular 01:23:10.572 --> 01:23:15.042 path, that's inevitably where you'll sort of end up walking towards. 01:23:15.522 --> 01:23:17.352 I dunno if you're familiar with Neville Godard. 01:23:17.412 --> 01:23:19.562 The the, he was a sort of a, 01:23:22.862 --> 01:23:29.162 before new age existed, sort of back in the forties and fifties, he was 01:23:29.162 --> 01:23:34.562 a bit of a guru who interpreted it through a very Christian scripture 01:23:34.622 --> 01:23:39.242 sort of lens and very much sort of early law of attraction stuff. 01:23:39.302 --> 01:23:44.042 And he would say that in the Bible, when they say you to turn the other cheek, 01:23:44.042 --> 01:23:46.262 if you're slapped, is not to be a pussy. 01:23:46.682 --> 01:23:48.182 It's to simply. 01:23:48.737 --> 01:23:53.417 If you don't like what you're seeing over there, turn literally your gaze 01:23:53.417 --> 01:23:58.097 over there to something that you do like and go in that direction. 01:23:58.847 --> 01:24:01.067 'cause as long as you're looking at the thing you don't like, 01:24:01.067 --> 01:24:02.777 that's where you're gonna be going. 01:24:03.317 --> 01:24:07.427 And I do wonder if that technique that you were talking about earlier in the 01:24:07.427 --> 01:24:09.047 conversation is really a version of that. 01:24:10.697 --> 01:24:10.698 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:24:10.697 --> 01:24:11.717 Very possible. 01:24:11.717 --> 01:24:16.937 You know, I think it's at the core to kind of calm the central nervous system, 01:24:16.937 --> 01:24:21.997 but in a sense yeah, shifting our focus calming the central nervous system 01:24:21.997 --> 01:24:28.357 in a way that allows us to shift our focus in a more productive or optimal 01:24:28.477 --> 01:24:30.847 direction, I think is what I would say. 01:24:31.117 --> 01:24:31.357 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:24:32.857 --> 01:24:38.227 If you have a hope for your book and the work that you do with, 01:24:38.287 --> 01:24:41.047 with parenting, what would you say? 01:24:41.047 --> 01:24:43.867 I mean, apart from obviously ameliorating suffering, but. 01:24:48.962 --> 01:24:52.147 What, what would you say your mission is with this? 01:24:53.017 --> 01:24:53.018 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:24:53.017 --> 01:24:58.687 Yeah, so with this, my, my primary mission is to really help folks to 01:24:59.257 --> 01:25:01.807 appreciate their own unique context. 01:25:02.287 --> 01:25:02.347 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:25:02.467 --> 01:25:02.468 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:25:02.467 --> 01:25:06.847 Without falling into, you know, the comparison trap or vibe. 01:25:06.877 --> 01:25:13.267 And within that context, be able to create create a roadmap 01:25:13.267 --> 01:25:15.877 for how to be at their best. 01:25:16.687 --> 01:25:21.187 And then from there, believe in the possibility that's out there 01:25:21.187 --> 01:25:22.987 for them and for their children. 01:25:23.317 --> 01:25:26.257 On the other side of the challenges that are inevitably gonna come up. 01:25:27.037 --> 01:25:27.247 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:25:27.247 --> 01:25:32.437 So a lot of it's about imagining what, what good looks like, perhaps 01:25:33.427 --> 01:25:33.428 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:25:33.427 --> 01:25:33.817 Well. 01:25:34.372 --> 01:25:35.242 Yes. 01:25:35.242 --> 01:25:40.702 Creating a map for what good looks like and then moving intentionally towards, 01:25:41.122 --> 01:25:41.992 Rupert Isaacson: and how do you create that map? 01:25:42.892 --> 01:25:42.893 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:25:42.892 --> 01:25:51.152 Well, you create that map by really being intentional by, you know, increasing your 01:25:51.152 --> 01:25:56.342 sense of awareness through conversations with a coach or a therapist, or 01:25:56.732 --> 01:26:02.912 journaling, or really taking the time to sit down and think about, Hmm, what 01:26:02.912 --> 01:26:06.002 are the things that make me feel good? 01:26:06.032 --> 01:26:07.862 What do I want my life to look like? 01:26:07.862 --> 01:26:10.502 How might I be able to create that? 01:26:10.892 --> 01:26:16.352 And my book kind of creates a, is is a catalyst for that kind of a process. 01:26:16.682 --> 01:26:20.882 Kind of like a, a playbook, so to speak, for folks to start thinking about these 01:26:20.882 --> 01:26:28.552 things and create that foundation for, for optimizing their own sense of wellbeing. 01:26:28.582 --> 01:26:32.872 And in doing that, helping their, their children and families to do the same. 01:26:33.532 --> 01:26:35.002 Rupert Isaacson: What are the building blocks of that? 01:26:35.002 --> 01:26:36.442 Like, do, is it vision boarding? 01:26:36.922 --> 01:26:38.962 Is it visualizations? 01:26:38.962 --> 01:26:40.822 Is it guided meditations? 01:26:40.822 --> 01:26:44.512 Is it these, you know, these are sort of known tools. 01:26:44.752 --> 01:26:44.812 Yeah. 01:26:45.052 --> 01:26:46.012 Or are there others? 01:26:46.642 --> 01:26:46.643 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:26:46.642 --> 01:26:50.732 Well, you know, so it's, it's lots I essentially what we 01:26:50.732 --> 01:26:53.852 already have talked about the ma modulating your stress response. 01:26:54.332 --> 01:26:54.362 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 01:26:54.502 --> 01:26:54.503 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:26:54.502 --> 01:26:56.572 The visualization is a big piece of it. 01:26:57.032 --> 01:27:03.662 We also want folks to be able to see the things that are going well as opposed to 01:27:03.662 --> 01:27:05.492 just the things that are not going well. 01:27:05.492 --> 01:27:06.422 The challenges. 01:27:06.572 --> 01:27:07.502 So really important. 01:27:07.502 --> 01:27:09.812 Ones called the Daily Wins exercise. 01:27:10.172 --> 01:27:14.252 And we have folks sit down at the end of each day, or you can do it 01:27:14.252 --> 01:27:17.942 at the beginning of each day and come up with three to five things 01:27:17.942 --> 01:27:20.102 that went well on that given day. 01:27:20.402 --> 01:27:22.412 Because human nature. 01:27:23.162 --> 01:27:26.042 Takes us pretty readily to the negative stuff. 01:27:26.072 --> 01:27:27.272 Yeah, the negative bias. 01:27:27.902 --> 01:27:29.522 What should have happened? 01:27:29.522 --> 01:27:30.632 What should we have done? 01:27:30.632 --> 01:27:32.222 Why are we not succeed? 01:27:32.222 --> 01:27:33.122 You know, that kind of thing. 01:27:33.492 --> 01:27:39.312 So this daily wind exercise helps neutralize our lens and maybe even put 01:27:39.312 --> 01:27:41.202 it a little bit towards the positive. 01:27:41.592 --> 01:27:44.682 We're not trying to minimize the challenges because challenge is 01:27:44.682 --> 01:27:49.032 real and it's gonna come up every single day, probably multiple 01:27:49.032 --> 01:27:51.542 times for all of us big or small. 01:27:52.082 --> 01:27:55.202 And so the Daily winds exercise is an important piece. 01:27:55.472 --> 01:27:57.242 Journaling is a huge piece. 01:27:57.572 --> 01:27:58.832 What's happened in our day? 01:27:58.862 --> 01:28:00.482 How did we respond to it? 01:28:00.512 --> 01:28:02.492 How would we like to respond differently? 01:28:02.852 --> 01:28:05.252 Creating that kind of a roadmap is important. 01:28:05.732 --> 01:28:08.462 Rupert Isaacson: What do you do for the people like me who just will not journal? 01:28:09.842 --> 01:28:10.132 Nope. 01:28:10.757 --> 01:28:11.687 I write for a living. 01:28:11.687 --> 01:28:12.557 It's like, no, I'm sorry. 01:28:12.557 --> 01:28:13.397 I'm not gonna write anymore. 01:28:14.417 --> 01:28:14.418 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:28:14.417 --> 01:28:15.437 Yeah, I got ya. 01:28:15.437 --> 01:28:16.217 And, and, right. 01:28:16.217 --> 01:28:18.257 It's not, it's not gonna fit for everybody. 01:28:18.257 --> 01:28:18.557 Right. 01:28:18.557 --> 01:28:20.087 So then you might, you 01:28:20.087 --> 01:28:21.377 Rupert Isaacson: say plan B from journaling. 01:28:21.857 --> 01:28:21.858 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:28:21.857 --> 01:28:25.647 So plan B from journaling is reflection. 01:28:25.857 --> 01:28:30.147 You can always take time to reflect, to think, and you can do 01:28:30.147 --> 01:28:32.247 that, you know, within yourself. 01:28:32.247 --> 01:28:38.127 Or you can do that in conjunction with you know, a spouse, a partner, a 01:28:38.127 --> 01:28:42.607 trusted advisor, a friend and kind of go back and forth in your reflections. 01:28:42.937 --> 01:28:43.087 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:28:43.137 --> 01:28:43.138 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:28:43.137 --> 01:28:44.277 So that would be plan B. 01:28:44.587 --> 01:28:45.577 You don't have to write it out. 01:28:46.297 --> 01:28:49.657 And then another building block is. 01:28:50.872 --> 01:28:52.222 What do you love to do? 01:28:52.462 --> 01:28:56.732 You know, what, what is a hobby that you don't have time for that you might 01:28:56.732 --> 01:28:59.072 be able to reintegrate in some way? 01:28:59.402 --> 01:29:01.442 Maybe it's something you love to do in the past. 01:29:01.772 --> 01:29:06.842 Maybe it's something you wanna try that's new, but creating space, and 01:29:06.842 --> 01:29:11.792 it could be a teeny, tiny engagement to start, but to give your sense self 01:29:11.792 --> 01:29:17.582 that sense of how that feels to be, you know, taking a little bit of time out to 01:29:17.942 --> 01:29:19.862 paint or draw or whatever it is for you. 01:29:19.862 --> 01:29:21.542 You know, there's no one size fits all. 01:29:21.812 --> 01:29:23.792 That's an important building block as well. 01:29:24.152 --> 01:29:27.522 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's funny, I have a I grew up very much in the 01:29:27.522 --> 01:29:31.782 English hunt field, which is fox hunting, you know, riding two hounds. 01:29:32.152 --> 01:29:37.312 Which is, there is nothing like it in terms of adrenaline. 01:29:37.312 --> 01:29:40.522 Now I can't justify doing that anymore because I can't hassle 01:29:40.522 --> 01:29:42.712 a, a fox for my own enjoyment. 01:29:42.712 --> 01:29:44.092 So I, I do a. 01:29:45.367 --> 01:29:50.197 Simulated version of it where we lay a scent and try to do it creatively so 01:29:50.197 --> 01:29:53.707 that the hounds, you know, have a bit of trouble working it out and we'll get 01:29:53.707 --> 01:29:56.767 someone to lay it across a stretch of country that might be a bit challenging 01:29:56.767 --> 01:29:58.057 to ride over or something like that. 01:29:58.057 --> 01:30:02.347 But it's, and even then frequently I find that I'm not able to do 01:30:02.347 --> 01:30:04.957 it for bazillions of reasons. 01:30:05.057 --> 01:30:10.217 So I discovered YouTube and I realized that people were going out hunting 01:30:10.347 --> 01:30:13.227 in these areas of England that I grew up in, which I love and are 01:30:13.227 --> 01:30:17.427 still dear to me, even though I live, you know, hundreds of, sometimes 01:30:17.427 --> 01:30:18.717 thousands of miles away from that. 01:30:19.407 --> 01:30:22.227 And they put, he, they put helmet cams on and they go. 01:30:22.437 --> 01:30:28.137 And I found, I found people going out hunting in these areas that I grew up in. 01:30:29.247 --> 01:30:32.997 And I watch them, and it's so interesting. 01:30:33.207 --> 01:30:35.097 I feel so much better. 01:30:35.337 --> 01:30:37.827 It's like, at first I thought, oh, it's just gonna make me feel 01:30:37.827 --> 01:30:39.867 bad because I'm not able to do it, and I'm not able to go there. 01:30:39.867 --> 01:30:41.727 It's like, no, it was the opposite. 01:30:42.237 --> 01:30:45.912 And it was so unexpected and, and such a kind of lovely 01:30:48.047 --> 01:30:50.777 use of social media in a, in a funny way. 01:30:50.837 --> 01:30:53.537 You know, we're so used to thinking of social media as a negative, but of 01:30:53.537 --> 01:30:57.017 course, you and I would not be having this conversation, but for social media 01:30:57.127 --> 01:31:00.817 people perhaps wouldn't discover your book, but for social media so, you know, 01:31:00.817 --> 01:31:03.907 social media is just another way for humans to, you know, swap information. 01:31:04.177 --> 01:31:08.877 But I was, I was really astonished by the joy that that came with this. 01:31:09.147 --> 01:31:15.297 Do you help people to, to sort of engage virtually in the things 01:31:15.297 --> 01:31:18.477 that give them joy if they can't access them perhaps in this moment? 01:31:19.887 --> 01:31:19.888 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:31:19.887 --> 01:31:23.847 Definitely that, that's always an opportunity depending on, you know, 01:31:23.847 --> 01:31:29.337 who the person is or their willingness to engage in that way, but absolutely. 01:31:29.337 --> 01:31:33.167 You know, and it can be as simple as you know, a virtual meeting, 01:31:33.257 --> 01:31:36.407 a virtual coffee meeting with a friend, or that kind of a thing. 01:31:36.767 --> 01:31:44.447 Or there are folks who love to engage in role-playing games online in communities 01:31:44.447 --> 01:31:49.697 of folks that they, they are a part of, you know, that kind of a thing. 01:31:49.697 --> 01:31:54.647 So there's all sorts of opportunity to do just the type of thing 01:31:54.647 --> 01:31:55.907 that you're, you're describing. 01:31:56.217 --> 01:31:57.147 So Absolutely. 01:31:58.797 --> 01:31:59.067 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:31:59.067 --> 01:32:02.487 The sort of blessings of the modern age in a funny way. 01:32:03.057 --> 01:32:03.058 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:32:03.057 --> 01:32:03.267 Mm-hmm. 01:32:03.687 --> 01:32:04.197 Yes. 01:32:04.197 --> 01:32:04.737 Exactly. 01:32:05.007 --> 01:32:05.337 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:32:05.337 --> 01:32:08.747 Well listen, people will need to know how to find the book. 01:32:09.147 --> 01:32:09.927 How to Access You. 01:32:09.927 --> 01:32:14.437 I know you do public speaking, I know you also coach online and virtually, and I'm 01:32:14.437 --> 01:32:19.087 sure there's listeners and people watching who think Yeah, I could use a bit of Kate. 01:32:19.597 --> 01:32:20.617 So how do they find you, Dr. 01:32:20.617 --> 01:32:21.707 Kate and your book? 01:32:21.862 --> 01:32:21.863 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:32:21.862 --> 01:32:22.062 Absolutely. 01:32:22.357 --> 01:32:24.967 So a great way to do that is through my website, which 01:32:24.967 --> 01:32:28.502 is www kate lund speaks.com. 01:32:28.932 --> 01:32:31.782 Rupert Isaacson: Kate lund speaks.com. 01:32:32.467 --> 01:32:32.468 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:32:32.467 --> 01:32:33.727 Yes, exactly. 01:32:33.727 --> 01:32:38.317 And my book is available on the website as well as on Amazon. 01:32:38.917 --> 01:32:40.207 Rupert Isaacson: And give us the title again. 01:32:40.577 --> 01:32:40.578 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:32:40.577 --> 01:32:41.447 Step Away. 01:32:41.897 --> 01:32:44.117 The Keys to Resilient Parenting. 01:32:44.447 --> 01:32:44.837 Rupert Isaacson: Perfect. 01:32:45.497 --> 01:32:45.498 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:32:45.497 --> 01:32:48.917 And I'm also very active on Instagram and LinkedIn. 01:32:49.457 --> 01:32:49.877 Rupert Isaacson: Great. 01:32:49.997 --> 01:32:50.957 So people can find you. 01:32:50.957 --> 01:32:55.367 And if they also want to a bit of personal help, they can 01:32:57.587 --> 01:33:00.497 let you help them get some resilience in their parenting. 01:33:00.587 --> 01:33:00.647 A 01:33:01.037 --> 01:33:01.038 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:33:01.037 --> 01:33:01.727 hundred percent. 01:33:01.727 --> 01:33:02.027 Yes. 01:33:02.027 --> 01:33:02.897 Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic. 01:33:03.327 --> 01:33:06.747 Well I, I know that a lot of our followers will be interested in 01:33:06.747 --> 01:33:09.807 that, so thank you so much Dr. 01:33:09.807 --> 01:33:11.007 Kate for coming on. 01:33:11.757 --> 01:33:11.758 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:33:11.757 --> 01:33:12.807 Well, thank you for having me. 01:33:12.807 --> 01:33:13.767 I really appreciate it. 01:33:13.767 --> 01:33:14.727 This has been a lot of fun. 01:33:15.147 --> 01:33:16.287 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it really has. 01:33:16.597 --> 01:33:21.327 And I'm gonna go and try your your just, I'm gonna imagine horses say awesome, 01:33:21.417 --> 01:33:23.127 not imagine I'm gonna say horses. 01:33:23.457 --> 01:33:23.458 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:33:23.457 --> 01:33:23.547 Mm-hmm. 01:33:23.787 --> 01:33:26.007 Rupert Isaacson: The next time I'm, I'm, I've got it on my agenda. 01:33:26.007 --> 01:33:29.217 I'm gonna say that tomorrow when I get stressed about something. 01:33:29.217 --> 01:33:30.297 'cause I inevitably will. 01:33:30.807 --> 01:33:33.897 And I'm gonna see how that goes for me and I'll take, see 01:33:33.897 --> 01:33:35.577 if I can find that baseline. 01:33:36.327 --> 01:33:36.328 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:33:36.327 --> 01:33:36.747 Perfect. 01:33:36.747 --> 01:33:37.227 I love it. 01:33:37.227 --> 01:33:38.547 And let me know how it goes. 01:33:39.147 --> 01:33:39.897 Rupert Isaacson: I will, I will indeed. 01:33:40.152 --> 01:33:40.153 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:33:40.152 --> 01:33:40.442 Okay. 01:33:40.447 --> 01:33:41.367 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, my friend. 01:33:41.877 --> 01:33:42.417 Thank you so 01:33:42.417 --> 01:33:42.418 Dr. Kate Lund: 01:33:42.417 --> 01:33:42.927 much. 01:33:43.017 --> 01:33:43.277 Thank you so much. 01:33:43.277 --> 01:33:43.297 Thank you. 01:33:43.977 --> 01:33:44.337 Bye-bye. 01:33:44.337 --> 01:33:44.347 Bye. 01:33:44.465 --> 01:33:47.845 Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. 01:33:48.675 --> 01:33:52.425 If you did, please help us to make more. 01:33:52.425 --> 01:33:56.305 Please like, subscribe, tell a friend, give us a thumbs up. 01:33:56.755 --> 01:34:02.005 If you'd like to support us on Patreon, please go to my website, rupertisakson. 01:34:02.325 --> 01:34:02.675 com. 01:34:02.875 --> 01:34:06.055 And if you'd like to find out about our certification courses with. 01:34:06.445 --> 01:34:10.395 autism, education, horsemanship, everyday shamanism. 01:34:10.455 --> 01:34:12.795 There's a whole range of cool stuff. 01:34:13.215 --> 01:34:16.245 Putting a show together like this is not an easy task. 01:34:17.495 --> 01:34:22.425 If you'd like to support us, please consider going to our Patreon page 01:34:22.935 --> 01:34:24.165 and showing us some love there. 01:34:24.805 --> 01:34:30.255 Even the smallest donation, it really helps us to keep the good content 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