WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.049 --> 00:00:02.120 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:02.150 --> 00:00:03.830 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. 00:00:03.943 --> 00:00:07.033 New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. 00:00:07.038 --> 00:00:11.027 Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. 00:00:11.027 --> 00:00:16.644 You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. 00:00:16.694 --> 00:00:18.614 Here on Equine Assisted World. 00:00:18.614 --> 00:00:23.744 We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, 00:00:23.794 --> 00:00:27.604 established in the equine assisted field. 00:00:27.634 --> 00:00:32.884 This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be 00:00:33.034 --> 00:00:38.284 physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have. 00:00:38.794 --> 00:00:43.204 These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with. 00:00:43.301 --> 00:00:47.201 Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show. 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:54.340 In the following podcast, I had a long chat with my dear friend, Joel Dunlap 00:00:54.370 --> 00:00:57.040 of Square Peg Foundation in California. 00:00:57.730 --> 00:01:00.820 For those of you who don't know this amazing person, Joelle, um, 00:01:00.820 --> 00:01:03.010 about 15 years ago, she founded. 00:01:04.435 --> 00:01:09.835 An organization dedicated to the people that don't fit into mainstream society 00:01:10.375 --> 00:01:17.245 and how to help them learn skills and learn to thrive using horses. 00:01:17.425 --> 00:01:20.335 She was really one of the first people to pioneer this work. 00:01:20.545 --> 00:01:25.045 Now she works in the fields of autism, trauma, neuropsych, other 00:01:25.045 --> 00:01:29.215 types of mental health, and she has two facilities, one in half Moon 00:01:29.215 --> 00:01:31.945 Bay, just south of San Francisco. 00:01:32.255 --> 00:01:36.035 And one in Sonoma, just east of San Francisco in the wine country, and 00:01:36.035 --> 00:01:39.275 she works all over the world and educates people all over the world. 00:01:39.545 --> 00:01:45.755 In this amazing work, she combines neuroscience with really 00:01:45.815 --> 00:01:47.455 good classical horse training. 00:01:48.355 --> 00:01:54.335 She provides, employment for people with neuropsychiatric , conditions, 00:01:54.725 --> 00:01:58.775 and she provides basically happiness and joy and the tools to thrive. 00:01:58.775 --> 00:02:03.155 So without further ado, let's find out how Joel Dunlap does this. 00:02:03.643 --> 00:02:06.643 Joell Dunlap: Welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:02:06.733 --> 00:02:08.983 This is the first one, really? 00:02:09.143 --> 00:02:09.563 Ah, yeah. 00:02:09.593 --> 00:02:09.883 Cool. 00:02:09.888 --> 00:02:12.673 Yeah, I have been wanting to do this for the longest time 00:02:12.793 --> 00:02:14.713 and um, that's why I'm excited. 00:02:14.803 --> 00:02:21.583 Um, for about the last four or five years, I've just, I think along with everyone 00:02:21.583 --> 00:02:25.363 else who's working in the field, has watched it suddenly go from a rather 00:02:25.363 --> 00:02:28.513 tight, , perhaps overregulated perhaps. 00:02:29.293 --> 00:02:35.923 Somewhat limited, uh, field and, and a rather factional field to 00:02:35.953 --> 00:02:38.713 suddenly a really wide open field. 00:02:39.463 --> 00:02:46.183 And I think what I and many like us have noticed is that a lot of people 00:02:46.183 --> 00:02:52.513 who were quietly working away for more than years, I'd say decades, um, their. 00:02:54.493 --> 00:02:59.143 Has now proved itself and people are now doing studies into them. 00:02:59.203 --> 00:03:03.043 It's reaching academia and so much of what was on the hippie 00:03:03.043 --> 00:03:07.273 margins has now in about the last five years come to the mainstream. 00:03:07.603 --> 00:03:11.593 But it's still a somewhat confusing world in that, well, there seems 00:03:11.598 --> 00:03:12.554 to be the equine-assisted thing. 00:03:12.559 --> 00:03:15.013 There seems to be the, , neuropsych thing. 00:03:15.013 --> 00:03:19.393 There seems to be the, , physical disabilities thing and. 00:03:20.128 --> 00:03:20.848 many others. 00:03:20.848 --> 00:03:27.118 And these seem to be existing still to some degree in their own, , galaxies. 00:03:27.848 --> 00:03:32.708 , but there are a growing number of people out there who see the bigger picture. 00:03:33.338 --> 00:03:33.758 Mm-hmm. 00:03:34.028 --> 00:03:38.278 . And, , as we are realizing now, so many people have multiple diagnoses. 00:03:38.638 --> 00:03:41.588 So many people, , they might have something physical, but they've got 00:03:41.588 --> 00:03:43.208 something neuropsychological going on. 00:03:43.658 --> 00:03:46.028 They could have trauma and something physical. 00:03:46.688 --> 00:03:49.418 Perhaps they've come back from a war zone and they're injured. 00:03:49.718 --> 00:03:54.338 They could have many multiple layers to a lesser or greater degree. 00:03:54.458 --> 00:04:00.328 And, , suddenly the, the technologies available seem to me to be 00:04:00.508 --> 00:04:03.358 rising, to meet this challenge. 00:04:03.358 --> 00:04:08.188 And I would say that of the people that I have been watching over 00:04:08.188 --> 00:04:13.408 the past, more than a decade, , be just consistently effective. 00:04:13.933 --> 00:04:18.733 Would be Joelle Dunlap of Square Peg Foundation in California. 00:04:19.753 --> 00:04:22.993 So Joelle, I've got you finally in front of me. 00:04:23.053 --> 00:04:24.793 I'm sitting in Germany, you're sitting there. 00:04:25.513 --> 00:04:32.443 Um, I want you to tell us who you are and what you do, and then I want to ask 00:04:32.473 --> 00:04:37.753 you a bunch of questions so that the listeners can get an insight into the 00:04:38.053 --> 00:04:40.694 multifaceted world that you work in. 00:04:41.688 --> 00:04:46.828 and perhaps get some ideas about how they might explore this world as well. 00:04:47.008 --> 00:04:54.328 So who are you, Joel ? Uh, I am the co-founder and executive 00:04:54.333 --> 00:04:56.398 director of Square Peg Foundation. 00:04:56.398 --> 00:05:05.098 We started in 2004, um, and we called it Square Peg because we wanted to. 00:05:06.583 --> 00:05:11.398 , we saw a real gap between people who wouldn't thrive in a traditional 00:05:11.398 --> 00:05:16.858 writing environment and people who also weren't going to fit in, um, 00:05:16.948 --> 00:05:21.328 in what, at the time, in 2004, was a therapeutic writing environment. 00:05:22.318 --> 00:05:24.569 And, um, we, we saw a, a. 00:05:25.723 --> 00:05:31.333 A bunch of people, um, who weren't gonna be served well in either environment. 00:05:31.903 --> 00:05:35.833 Um, and of course what found us in that space is autism, um, 00:05:35.863 --> 00:05:37.213 over and over and over again. 00:05:37.723 --> 00:05:44.243 Um, but our first partner when we started Square Peg was a family homeless shelter 00:05:44.863 --> 00:05:48.073 in San Francisco, in the Tenderloin, in the roughest part of the city. 00:05:48.463 --> 00:05:51.193 And they had a really beautiful. 00:05:51.312 --> 00:05:54.072 Way of looking at the homeless issue. 00:05:54.162 --> 00:06:00.642 Um, that they wanted to create an environment of family rituals and joy 00:06:01.122 --> 00:06:05.922 and an experience through the eyes of the child so that the recidivism 00:06:05.927 --> 00:06:10.472 in autism, or sorry, in, in, in homelessness, um, wasn't repeated 00:06:10.752 --> 00:06:12.632 generation after generation after generat. 00:06:14.007 --> 00:06:20.247 and that mentorship was so timely and so helpful to us because it helped us 00:06:20.247 --> 00:06:26.877 understand the importance of environment, um, and the importance of changing 00:06:26.877 --> 00:06:29.257 the way somebody saw themselves. 00:06:30.237 --> 00:06:34.707 Um, and that was, that is a program called Raphael House Family Homeless Shelter. 00:06:35.547 --> 00:06:37.678 And when you think of a homeless shelter, you don. 00:06:38.262 --> 00:06:41.712 Think of hopefulness and you don't think of sweetness. 00:06:42.082 --> 00:06:47.112 , and here's a place where the children, , they all, , read a bedtime 00:06:47.112 --> 00:06:51.312 story and then lit a candle and then sang their ways back to their 00:06:51.317 --> 00:06:57.672 rooms to go to bed and create these rituals, , of safety and of sweetness. 00:06:58.902 --> 00:06:59.967 we learned a lot from them. 00:06:59.967 --> 00:07:03.887 So, , so here we are in 2023. 00:07:03.887 --> 00:07:12.287 In 2018, um, we opened up our first satellite organization. 00:07:12.287 --> 00:07:13.157 So here we are. 00:07:13.157 --> 00:07:18.097 We'd been operating for 16 years and, , loved what we were doing. 00:07:18.457 --> 00:07:20.287 , Didn't know how it would scale. 00:07:20.347 --> 00:07:22.897 You know, this is Silicon Valley and everybody wants to talk 00:07:22.897 --> 00:07:25.147 about scalability of operations. 00:07:25.807 --> 00:07:31.597 , , and we didn't plan it this way, the story that I'll share because I think it's, 00:07:31.597 --> 00:07:33.497 it's interesting just in talking about. 00:07:34.792 --> 00:07:36.592 How things grow naturally. 00:07:36.742 --> 00:07:39.712 , we had a woman working for us, Becca Knff. 00:07:39.742 --> 00:07:42.442 Um, very, very, very, very talented. 00:07:42.922 --> 00:07:48.222 And , if I had a nickel, if you had a nickel for every resume of every 00:07:48.222 --> 00:07:51.462 college girl coming out of college who says, you know, I wanna work for 00:07:51.462 --> 00:07:54.532 a horse boy foundation, or I wanna work for square peg, , we could 00:07:54.532 --> 00:07:56.222 probably buy a pretty fancy latte 00:07:58.522 --> 00:08:02.932 But Becca sent that resume and showed up for her first day to 00:08:02.932 --> 00:08:08.032 volunteer, and within an hour she was wearing a tutu and was back riding. 00:08:08.122 --> 00:08:11.392 Um, and , we thought, okay, we have a keeper. 00:08:12.392 --> 00:08:18.757 , so Becca also wanted to pursue, , excellence in being, , a 00:08:18.757 --> 00:08:20.347 competition dressage writer. 00:08:21.067 --> 00:08:23.197 So she worked for us. 00:08:23.572 --> 00:08:27.412 four days a week, and then she commuted an hour and a half north, 00:08:27.472 --> 00:08:32.242 um, up to Sonoma to ride with a, , a Grand Prix dressage trainer. 00:08:32.342 --> 00:08:34.382 , a couple, well, actually three days a week. 00:08:34.382 --> 00:08:35.792 She was working seven days a week. 00:08:36.482 --> 00:08:40.762 And, , this woman was a, was a, a mentor to her personally and professionally. 00:08:41.142 --> 00:08:43.482 And, , that woman, , Susan Palmer. 00:08:44.272 --> 00:08:47.902 Went from diagnosis to gone from breast cancer in four months 00:08:47.902 --> 00:08:49.792 for very brutal short months. 00:08:50.392 --> 00:08:55.932 , and it was devastating Rebecca, , and for, , her barn community, , and 00:08:55.932 --> 00:08:57.162 certainly for her family. 00:08:57.282 --> 00:09:02.642 And so her widower came to Becca and said, look, , I need you to take over the barn. 00:09:02.792 --> 00:09:03.512 I need you to. 00:09:04.027 --> 00:09:05.017 Run the barn for me. 00:09:06.037 --> 00:09:10.597 So she came to us crying and said, you know, I need to honor Susan and I need 00:09:10.597 --> 00:09:15.067 to quit working for Cor Peg and I need to go and run Cadence Farm up in Sonoma. 00:09:15.127 --> 00:09:19.837 And we gave her our blessing and hugs and a going away party and off she went. 00:09:21.247 --> 00:09:25.107 And, , about six weeks later, she called me and said, , can we have dinner? 00:09:25.167 --> 00:09:26.097 And I said, well, of course. 00:09:26.097 --> 00:09:31.377 So she drives an hour and a half south and we order dinner and she starts crying. 00:09:31.377 --> 00:09:33.717 She says, I don't wanna run a massage barn. 00:09:34.377 --> 00:09:35.787 And I said, well, what do you wanna do? 00:09:36.087 --> 00:09:37.647 She said, I, I won't square peg. 00:09:37.647 --> 00:09:38.877 I need square peg in my life. 00:09:38.877 --> 00:09:42.837 And I said, well, and this is a very Rupert esque, um, answer. 00:09:42.837 --> 00:09:48.207 I said, well, let's just turn Cadence Farm into a Scorp satellite. 00:09:48.567 --> 00:09:49.827 and she said, can we do that? 00:09:49.827 --> 00:09:54.867 I said, I have no idea, but I have this napkin under my glass of wine and 00:09:54.867 --> 00:09:56.517 I'm sure someone will lend us a pen. 00:09:56.907 --> 00:10:00.117 And we started penciling out or panning out how it would work. 00:10:00.177 --> 00:10:04.232 And that's, that's, that's how our, our satellite operation, , opened. 00:10:04.492 --> 00:10:08.092 So we did prove that we could scale it and we did prove that we could 00:10:08.092 --> 00:10:13.042 grow and that we could go into a new community and get the trust of the autism 00:10:13.042 --> 00:10:15.672 community there and, and start services. 00:10:16.587 --> 00:10:19.977 So, so, well, you've just said some things which, , for a lot of people 00:10:19.977 --> 00:10:24.627 in the, uh, equine therapy world would seem to be completely dissonant things. 00:10:24.632 --> 00:10:29.397 You said you've, in this last couple of minutes, you've said homelessness, 00:10:30.087 --> 00:10:34.297 you've said, but family rituals of joy, safety, and sweetness. 00:10:34.837 --> 00:10:40.707 You've said autism, you've said Grand Prix, dressage, . How do 00:10:40.707 --> 00:10:41.847 all these things come together? 00:10:43.992 --> 00:10:45.282 , pretty naturally, right? 00:10:45.432 --> 00:10:46.062 , talk us through it. 00:10:47.292 --> 00:10:53.382 Well, I think the important thing is, is, is joy and curiosity and exploration. 00:10:53.832 --> 00:10:56.592 Um, the best of dressage is just that, right? 00:10:56.592 --> 00:10:59.592 It's, it's partnership and it's, and it's joyfulness. 00:10:59.592 --> 00:11:02.352 And if it's not joyfulness, you certainly see it and you feel it. 00:11:04.812 --> 00:11:09.372 and that connection that we seek with the horse when we seek, , excellence 00:11:09.377 --> 00:11:15.642 in, in horsemanship is always going to be about, about joy and curiosity 00:11:15.642 --> 00:11:18.252 and communication and ritual, right? 00:11:18.257 --> 00:11:20.002 Horses, they love a good ritual. 00:11:20.542 --> 00:11:21.443 they love to know what's coming. 00:11:21.732 --> 00:11:22.462 That's true. 00:11:22.552 --> 00:11:25.582 They love that predictability and you certainly learn that 00:11:25.642 --> 00:11:27.022 in, in the autism world. 00:11:27.022 --> 00:11:29.092 If you can, if you can create. 00:11:29.557 --> 00:11:33.457 a joyful place, but that it's so unpredictable sometimes 00:11:33.457 --> 00:11:35.707 that's destabilizing. 00:11:36.017 --> 00:11:40.507 and so bringing it back to beautiful ritual, , that, that feels like 00:11:40.507 --> 00:11:41.977 home, that feels like safety. 00:11:42.487 --> 00:11:48.547 Um, it all, it all fits in now for many people, , in the horse world, , who 00:11:49.147 --> 00:11:50.347 look at dressage a little bit of. 00:11:51.742 --> 00:11:53.752 They equate it with the word dressage. 00:11:54.222 --> 00:11:58.092 , it's never good enough, you know, it's a bit snooty and so on. 00:11:58.152 --> 00:12:06.522 How does dressage and autism slash special needs slash equine 00:12:06.522 --> 00:12:07.842 assisted work come together? 00:12:08.022 --> 00:12:08.802 What's the connection? 00:12:11.067 --> 00:12:13.287 The first thing that comes to mind is rhythm, right? 00:12:13.292 --> 00:12:16.917 If we look at the training scale, rhythm, rhythm, rhythm, rhythm, 00:12:16.917 --> 00:12:18.417 we are, we're born to a rhythm. 00:12:18.417 --> 00:12:23.517 The music that we listen to is, you know, is directly connected to. 00:12:24.147 --> 00:12:24.657 Heart rate. 00:12:24.897 --> 00:12:27.597 A heart rate of when we feel good, a heart rate of when we feel 00:12:27.597 --> 00:12:30.837 excited, um, and also our, our gait. 00:12:31.277 --> 00:12:32.867 , we love rhythm. 00:12:32.867 --> 00:12:36.257 We are creatures of rhythm and , and horses as well. 00:12:36.407 --> 00:12:38.747 When they feel good, our creatures of rhythm. 00:12:39.287 --> 00:12:42.057 When we are rhythmically moving again, we're creating that. 00:12:42.992 --> 00:12:48.332 That, that joy and that predictability, you know, um, you don't have to be a 00:12:48.332 --> 00:12:50.132 musician to be able to find the one. 00:12:50.432 --> 00:12:50.672 Right. 00:12:50.672 --> 00:12:52.652 The one is home in rhythm. 00:12:52.752 --> 00:12:57.762 And, , I think, you know what I'm seeing in dressage lately, and even in jumping. 00:12:58.707 --> 00:13:04.017 is, um, people understanding rhythm and understanding biomechanics so much more. 00:13:04.287 --> 00:13:09.267 They're understanding that when a horse is compressed in his neck and he's compressed 00:13:09.267 --> 00:13:11.607 in his back, that it is dressage, right? 00:13:11.612 --> 00:13:13.077 And we feel it and we see it. 00:13:13.407 --> 00:13:16.977 Um, and, and the rhythm is the first thing that goes out the window. 00:13:17.307 --> 00:13:23.367 So when, um, gosh, I, I, I can get lost in the woods on this. 00:13:24.702 --> 00:13:26.962 Just trying to come back, lead us into the woods originally, lead us 00:13:26.962 --> 00:13:28.182 into, no, lead us into the woods. 00:13:28.332 --> 00:13:28.722 I love it. 00:13:29.982 --> 00:13:36.272 So, , you know, finding, , finding that regulating rhythm, it feels good. 00:13:36.602 --> 00:13:39.122 And, and why does the rhythm feel good? 00:13:39.122 --> 00:13:40.322 Let me nail you on that one. 00:13:40.412 --> 00:13:44.522 So let's, so we're assuming that we've got a horse that's not stress, that 00:13:44.522 --> 00:13:46.082 we've got a horse that's relaxed. 00:13:46.087 --> 00:13:51.737 And I'm gonna ask you how you achieve this, um, in a moment, but, , how 00:13:51.737 --> 00:13:59.147 does this rhythm beyond a certain predictability, um, do good to a human? 00:14:02.357 --> 00:14:07.247 The other night my husband and I went out to go see live music for 00:14:07.247 --> 00:14:08.927 the first time in a long time. 00:14:09.597 --> 00:14:13.492 , between, just the habits that we all built during the, the Covid shutdowns 00:14:13.492 --> 00:14:15.802 and, and, and the fear of being in groups. 00:14:16.402 --> 00:14:22.947 And, and we saw the Blind Boys of Alabama, um, which are three old men 00:14:22.987 --> 00:14:29.877 singing spiritual music with a, with a, with a, with a a, a, a funky backbeat. 00:14:32.802 --> 00:14:37.617 and it had been so long since I'd seen music with a group and you 00:14:37.617 --> 00:14:42.747 realize that everybody's breathing and their foot tapping and their 00:14:42.747 --> 00:14:45.328 head bobbing had all synced up. 00:14:46.267 --> 00:14:53.262 and you think about any healing tradition, any tribal tradition, it's all based 00:14:53.262 --> 00:14:58.482 around being in a circle and sinking up in rhythm, generally through song and dance 00:14:58.572 --> 00:15:00.462 and drumming and whatever that takes. 00:15:00.462 --> 00:15:02.652 And that's the best of who we are. 00:15:02.682 --> 00:15:04.273 So why wouldn't we seek that? 00:15:04.642 --> 00:15:08.102 For anybody who's feeling dysregulated, why wouldn't we go there first? 00:15:09.687 --> 00:15:12.447 . And is that what you're trying to achieve with the horses? 00:15:12.477 --> 00:15:13.827 And if so, how are you doing it? 00:15:14.157 --> 00:15:16.257 Um, well that's, that's the ideal, right? 00:15:16.287 --> 00:15:17.487 How are you getting the softness? 00:15:17.492 --> 00:15:17.847 Like what? 00:15:18.447 --> 00:15:19.047 Talk me through it. 00:15:20.427 --> 00:15:25.427 Well, the softness, , there has to be some trust between the horse and the person. 00:15:25.432 --> 00:15:31.717 And, , we we're all now learning, , how quick horses are to size this up of 00:15:31.987 --> 00:15:33.697 whether or not we're we're trustworth. 00:15:34.502 --> 00:15:39.572 . , and, so ideally, the person working with the horse, the horse knows well, but 00:15:39.572 --> 00:15:42.542 that's not always, uh, totally possible. 00:15:43.052 --> 00:15:48.172 , and spending a lot of time, whether you wanna call it training or working 00:15:48.172 --> 00:15:53.632 with the horse and seeking that rhythm and, praising for that rhythm. 00:15:54.202 --> 00:15:55.082 and how are you doing that? 00:15:55.302 --> 00:15:57.482 Are you doing that from the saddle or are you doing that from the ground? 00:15:58.582 --> 00:16:00.352 We spend a lot of time on the ground. 00:16:00.542 --> 00:16:05.172 we spend a lot of time, and I'm sure we'll get into this, but you 00:16:05.172 --> 00:16:08.142 know, it was, it was through you and IA that we were introduced 00:16:08.142 --> 00:16:09.792 to the work of the Lenzo family. 00:16:10.072 --> 00:16:14.487 and they moved us so far forward in the, in the, the, the in-hand work. 00:16:15.137 --> 00:16:19.097 it so much can be accomplished from the ground and, and working on the 00:16:19.097 --> 00:16:20.777 ground will make you a better writer. 00:16:20.927 --> 00:16:26.447 And there's, there's, if I could, if I could bring one message, to the equine 00:16:26.447 --> 00:16:28.562 group, , I'd like that to be known. 00:16:28.802 --> 00:16:31.902 What you can do on the lunge, what you can do from the ground, and 00:16:31.902 --> 00:16:34.092 giving the horse that visual feedback. 00:16:34.092 --> 00:16:36.462 They're not as visual as we think they are. 00:16:36.922 --> 00:16:39.112 , but they're, they're still quite visual. 00:16:39.112 --> 00:16:42.932 And when we're on the horse, when we're riding, they don't get that, that 00:16:42.937 --> 00:16:47.152 visual, feedback that they're gonna get if we have someone on the ground, whether 00:16:47.152 --> 00:16:49.102 it's lunging or, or doing in-hand work. 00:16:49.822 --> 00:16:53.183 Um, so you just, you mentioned the vales there, you mentioned in-hand work. 00:16:53.947 --> 00:16:56.917 and I was gonna get to mentors in a minute, and you, you, you 00:16:56.917 --> 00:16:58.267 talk about who your mentors, you. 00:16:58.267 --> 00:17:00.097 So you've talked about Rafael House. 00:17:00.297 --> 00:17:00.717 Mm-hmm. 00:17:01.117 --> 00:17:05.442 you also, mentioned now the ERs who, for those people who are listening, the, 00:17:05.447 --> 00:17:11.153 the ER family in Portugal, Luis Valer is probably, is regarded, I would say, 00:17:12.412 --> 00:17:13.762 perhaps, I think you'd agree with this. 00:17:13.812 --> 00:17:18.252 as probably the greatest living exponent of classical i Barack 00:17:18.882 --> 00:17:20.802 dressage probably alive on the planet. 00:17:21.672 --> 00:17:26.217 currently, it seems that there's a, a consensus among, among the 00:17:26.247 --> 00:17:27.837 dressage community about this. 00:17:27.937 --> 00:17:30.817 and I know him, obviously you do too. 00:17:30.817 --> 00:17:34.327 And he, one of the things that comes across is he his humanity. 00:17:34.837 --> 00:17:38.797 But of course, he doesn't really travel outside of Portugal much to teach. 00:17:39.007 --> 00:17:42.367 So when you say the Lenza family, can you talk us through? 00:17:42.982 --> 00:17:45.562 Who from that family has been training you and your team? 00:17:45.772 --> 00:17:50.362 How have they been training you and how has that made a difference? 00:17:51.472 --> 00:17:52.582 Mm gosh. 00:17:53.272 --> 00:17:57.832 Uh, so Luis has three daughters, the youngest daughter, 00:17:57.832 --> 00:18:00.082 Sophia, travels extensively. 00:18:00.082 --> 00:18:02.602 I think she's in New Zealand as we speak. 00:18:02.992 --> 00:18:07.612 I think she teaches in at least four and maybe five different languages. 00:18:07.612 --> 00:18:09.352 I think she can teach in Polish as well. 00:18:10.867 --> 00:18:12.007 Which is just amazing. 00:18:12.577 --> 00:18:17.287 Um, and, uh, and then the and then her, her traveling partner 00:18:17.347 --> 00:18:19.477 and co-train, uh, Gonzalo Leche. 00:18:20.377 --> 00:18:24.607 Um, the two of them, uh, have been coming out. 00:18:24.607 --> 00:18:28.557 I think the first time I met them was at your place in Elgan and. 00:18:30.142 --> 00:18:31.402 I'm so bad at timelines. 00:18:31.407 --> 00:18:34.042 That was probably what, eight, nine years ago? 00:18:34.042 --> 00:18:35.362 It was the police do scene, I think. 00:18:35.422 --> 00:18:36.562 I think when Ma, I think so. 00:18:37.132 --> 00:18:39.982 still bellowed to Macedon across the AL'S swamps. 00:18:39.982 --> 00:18:40.072 True. 00:18:40.072 --> 00:18:40.642 I think it was. 00:18:40.642 --> 00:18:40.792 Yeah. 00:18:40.882 --> 00:18:41.932 Yeah, yeah. 00:18:41.937 --> 00:18:42.532 And you a little bit. 00:18:42.772 --> 00:18:44.452 Very nice Mastodon to ride. 00:18:44.452 --> 00:18:45.172 I appreciate that. 00:18:45.172 --> 00:18:45.173 Yes. 00:18:45.262 --> 00:18:47.482 The mastodons have a beautiful sense of rhythm. 00:18:47.487 --> 00:18:48.902 Really, really, really rhythmic. 00:18:49.192 --> 00:18:50.342 It's a shame you're not around anymore. 00:18:51.322 --> 00:18:51.832 It is. 00:18:51.922 --> 00:18:57.727 It's , so, um, and then, I think it was, 2018, I was able to go to 00:18:57.727 --> 00:19:03.277 Portugal and spend a week, um, at the Vales and, and, and we had two 00:19:03.282 --> 00:19:05.707 days of terrible, terrible, terrible. 00:19:06.142 --> 00:19:08.292 Rain and windstorms, that were so bad. 00:19:08.292 --> 00:19:11.652 Even in their, their covered school, there was water running 00:19:12.102 --> 00:19:13.812 down the hill and rushing. 00:19:13.862 --> 00:19:17.822 and, and here's, you know, master Lenzo with a, a giant push broom 00:19:17.822 --> 00:19:21.092 and trying to, to, you know, move the water and it didn't work. 00:19:21.482 --> 00:19:24.652 And so, you know, in true Portuguese tradition, we all just went back 00:19:24.652 --> 00:19:27.752 to the house and ate lunch for hours and hours and hours, and, 00:19:27.802 --> 00:19:29.362 which they were gonna do anyway. 00:19:29.752 --> 00:19:34.682 But, he was gracious enough to let me interview him for about three hours, 00:19:35.072 --> 00:19:37.352 uh, until all of the batteries ran out. 00:19:37.442 --> 00:19:40.292 Um, and just spending that intimate time with him. 00:19:40.772 --> 00:19:44.757 , the first question I asked him, just as kind of a warmup was, you know, 00:19:44.757 --> 00:19:46.077 what did you have for breakfast? 00:19:46.317 --> 00:19:53.457 And he spins it into this philosophical, beautiful treatise on, on, on Boche. 00:19:54.267 --> 00:19:56.307 Um, What a, what a joy. 00:19:56.847 --> 00:19:57.027 . Right. 00:19:57.237 --> 00:20:02.477 So, , yeah, that mentorship has been, uh, such a gift. 00:20:02.987 --> 00:20:08.477 What would you say it's done, you said in terms of providing rhythm and softness 00:20:08.567 --> 00:20:10.987 and a wellbeing through that mm-hmm. 00:20:11.167 --> 00:20:14.467 , uh, through for the, for your, the, the people that you serve. 00:20:14.467 --> 00:20:14.827 Mm-hmm. 00:20:14.907 --> 00:20:16.337 , what would you say started for your horses? 00:20:16.727 --> 00:20:16.947 Mm. 00:20:17.807 --> 00:20:24.212 Well, and we haven't even touched on, on, um, Joel's particular, Brand of insanity. 00:20:24.212 --> 00:20:25.322 Um, oh, we're going. 00:20:25.742 --> 00:20:29.342 Believe me, , people need to know your particular brand of 00:20:29.342 --> 00:20:32.792 insanity because they will go wtf. 00:20:32.882 --> 00:20:33.332 And I'll go. 00:20:33.332 --> 00:20:33.752 Yeah. 00:20:33.757 --> 00:20:33.902 Yes. 00:20:34.292 --> 00:20:34.832 So yeah. 00:20:34.832 --> 00:20:37.022 What, let, we'll go to the insanity in a minute. 00:20:39.002 --> 00:20:41.312 What's it done for this insane crew? 00:20:42.772 --> 00:20:42.992 Uh, 00:20:46.092 --> 00:20:46.902 they're sweet. 00:20:47.627 --> 00:20:51.407 They're sweet, sweet, sweet and soft. 00:20:51.557 --> 00:20:55.577 Um, and these are horses that generally come in with not just 00:20:55.577 --> 00:21:01.187 tension, but , some gnarly injuries, bone on bone injuries, um, muscle 00:21:01.192 --> 00:21:06.707 imbalances, , from their, their, their field of expertise and what they've 00:21:06.707 --> 00:21:08.657 been bred for hundreds of years to do. 00:21:10.262 --> 00:21:15.032 They just get soft, um, soft in the body, soft in the brain, in 00:21:15.032 --> 00:21:18.512 the, not like me, soft in the brain, but , you know what I mean? 00:21:18.692 --> 00:21:19.562 Soft in the Yeah. 00:21:20.372 --> 00:21:21.422 I'm just taking a hole for myself. 00:21:21.962 --> 00:21:26.342 But the softness, emotional as well as Yeah. 00:21:26.402 --> 00:21:27.302 Um, absolutely. 00:21:27.412 --> 00:21:27.702 Okay. 00:21:27.702 --> 00:21:28.142 Absolutely. 00:21:28.802 --> 00:21:34.262 Do you have any speculation on why that might be, uh, what's going on 00:21:34.262 --> 00:21:36.152 with this in-hand work that creates. 00:21:37.172 --> 00:21:39.512 There's a lot of balancing in the body. 00:21:39.572 --> 00:21:45.662 There's a lot of, , finding, , horses in, in, in a natural setting will 00:21:45.662 --> 00:21:51.112 not very often, um, cross their legs over the midline, um, unless 00:21:51.112 --> 00:21:53.492 they're particularly scared. 00:21:53.942 --> 00:21:58.922 Um, . But very often we find that when a horse with his hind leg steps 00:21:58.922 --> 00:22:02.992 underneath his center of gravity with one hind leg and moves and bends in his 00:22:03.272 --> 00:22:05.432 body, he starts steepening his breath. 00:22:05.912 --> 00:22:08.432 He starts to lengthen the outside of his body. 00:22:08.642 --> 00:22:10.472 He gets softer on the inside. 00:22:10.802 --> 00:22:15.092 Um, and then when we consistently reward that, he starts to seek 00:22:15.092 --> 00:22:19.862 it not just for his own self, but he seeks it in, in pleasing you 00:22:19.952 --> 00:22:21.722 and you being part of that herd. 00:22:22.262 --> 00:22:23.942 Um, I'm never. 00:22:24.392 --> 00:22:25.742 Ever seen anything. 00:22:25.742 --> 00:22:28.802 You know, it used to be that you would just put a horse on the end of a lunch 00:22:28.807 --> 00:22:32.252 line and run them until they're tired and then you know, he'll figure it 00:22:32.252 --> 00:22:36.932 out, which does work to an extent, and it worked for me for a long time. 00:22:37.442 --> 00:22:44.012 But to change that into the horse feeling at home in his body and knowing 00:22:44.432 --> 00:22:47.642 where all his feet are and, and, and. 00:22:48.377 --> 00:22:52.967 Softening through his back before we put a rider on softening through his 00:22:52.967 --> 00:22:55.067 job before anybody's holding a bit. 00:22:55.577 --> 00:23:00.557 Um, they just get sweet and that's the word that just keeps 00:23:00.557 --> 00:23:04.427 coming up so sweet from insane. 00:23:04.517 --> 00:23:07.957 Why are these horses coming insane? 00:23:07.967 --> 00:23:09.287 Where are they coming from? 00:23:09.347 --> 00:23:10.127 These horses that come. 00:23:11.597 --> 00:23:12.167 They're racehorse. 00:23:12.857 --> 00:23:13.187 Oh yeah. 00:23:13.277 --> 00:23:19.547 So they're bred to be fast and there's nothing faster for, you know, 00:23:19.547 --> 00:23:21.557 a mild of five miles than a third. 00:23:21.562 --> 00:23:23.657 So you are putting mm-hmm. 00:23:24.017 --> 00:23:24.577 autistic people. 00:23:25.197 --> 00:23:25.617 Mm-hmm. 00:23:26.087 --> 00:23:26.987 on off the track. 00:23:26.987 --> 00:23:27.647 Thoroughbreds. 00:23:27.757 --> 00:23:28.177 Mm-hmm. 00:23:28.557 --> 00:23:28.977 . Mm-hmm. 00:23:29.897 --> 00:23:30.187 . Okay. 00:23:30.947 --> 00:23:32.957 Now, some people would say that's dangerous. 00:23:32.957 --> 00:23:34.277 Some people would say mm-hmm. 00:23:34.517 --> 00:23:35.177 , oh, you can't do that. 00:23:35.177 --> 00:23:36.287 Mm-hmm. 00:23:36.897 --> 00:23:37.617 , , you shouldn't do that. 00:23:38.007 --> 00:23:41.127 , How can this work? 00:23:41.367 --> 00:23:42.477 Why is it working? 00:23:42.717 --> 00:23:48.147 Because it clearly is working cuz you've been around for 16 years, 00:23:48.147 --> 00:23:50.727 you've got another satellite here. 00:23:51.177 --> 00:23:55.917 Um, I know that you are now, um, under the San Mate Mateo County, 00:23:56.317 --> 00:23:59.022 , medical and mental health thing, which we're gonna go to in a minute. 00:23:59.022 --> 00:23:59.342 Mm-hmm. 00:23:59.422 --> 00:24:01.562 so clearly, clearly, clearly, you're getting results. 00:24:02.312 --> 00:24:03.092 , how can this be? 00:24:03.152 --> 00:24:04.262 Why isn't it dangerous? 00:24:04.412 --> 00:24:07.082 Because a lot, all the naysayers are gonna say, that's not something you should do. 00:24:07.082 --> 00:24:08.252 You shouldn't match up. 00:24:08.257 --> 00:24:08.362 Mm-hmm. 00:24:08.722 --> 00:24:09.242 , thoroughbreds like that. 00:24:09.242 --> 00:24:09.602 Mm-hmm. 00:24:09.842 --> 00:24:11.162 this possible population. 00:24:11.342 --> 00:24:12.842 So talk us through how it works. 00:24:15.632 --> 00:24:26.402 One of the things about a thoroughbred is that he is born with humans in his life. 00:24:27.002 --> 00:24:31.287 Um, Some of the borough courses, , are not handled until they're 00:24:31.287 --> 00:24:32.487 three, four or five years old. 00:24:33.157 --> 00:24:36.727 a racehorse is , he's handled at conception. 00:24:36.887 --> 00:24:40.907 , the rule is you cannot artificially inseminate for a racehorse. 00:24:40.967 --> 00:24:44.327 It has to be a live cover and it has to be witnessed and certified. 00:24:44.627 --> 00:24:49.847 So humans are there from that moment of, of conception. 00:24:50.357 --> 00:24:51.617 Um, and so. 00:24:53.257 --> 00:24:55.007 and, and the good ones. 00:24:55.197 --> 00:24:56.487 and good farms. 00:24:56.547 --> 00:25:01.467 Um, the people handling the horses are experienced horse people, so 00:25:02.187 --> 00:25:04.557 a lot of them come quite trusting. 00:25:04.887 --> 00:25:08.547 Um, I don't think they would run if they didn't trust, um, because 00:25:08.552 --> 00:25:11.167 we ask them for everything and sometimes it costs them everything. 00:25:12.827 --> 00:25:14.507 . , so that's one thing. 00:25:14.507 --> 00:25:19.697 You don't have to teach a thoroughbred to want to please or trust humans, um, 00:25:19.727 --> 00:25:21.647 because they, they, they come that way. 00:25:22.067 --> 00:25:25.637 They've also seen a lot of things at the track, right? 00:25:25.907 --> 00:25:27.827 Bicycles are not new to them. 00:25:27.827 --> 00:25:29.657 Big tractors are not new to them. 00:25:29.997 --> 00:25:33.737 Um, so they do, you know, a four year old horse coming off the track 00:25:33.737 --> 00:25:36.317 has seen a lot of human things. 00:25:37.322 --> 00:25:38.952 And a lot of different locations, I suppose. 00:25:38.952 --> 00:25:39.712 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:25:39.712 --> 00:25:40.752 Different environment. 00:25:40.752 --> 00:25:42.722 He's, he's, he's hauled in vans. 00:25:42.722 --> 00:25:43.952 He's been to sales. 00:25:44.012 --> 00:25:48.872 Um, which isn't to say that that isn't traumatic or stressful, um, 00:25:48.932 --> 00:25:51.152 but he has been there, done that. 00:25:51.152 --> 00:25:53.732 And the fact that he's standing in your yard means that he's 00:25:53.732 --> 00:25:54.992 survived it on some level. 00:25:56.292 --> 00:25:59.342 Um, you know, he's worked with a lot of veterinarians. 00:25:59.552 --> 00:26:01.142 Hopefully he is, had his teeth done. 00:26:01.512 --> 00:26:03.552 , and he is had some pretty good nutrition. 00:26:03.557 --> 00:26:04.782 So, so there's. 00:26:05.992 --> 00:26:10.917 as, as the lead up, but he's bred to be really, really fast. 00:26:11.877 --> 00:26:17.267 Um, he's been written fairly roughly, um, and, , you know, 00:26:17.267 --> 00:26:21.677 he's been, he's been taught to lean into contact with the bridal. 00:26:22.317 --> 00:26:25.472 , , you know, if there's one thing I can say about horses, period, is their 00:26:25.472 --> 00:26:30.482 ability to forgive is one of the most soul cleansing and also taxing, 00:26:30.602 --> 00:26:31.832 you know, if you think about it. 00:26:31.832 --> 00:26:37.472 So once you start to spend time with the horse and start to get him feeling good 00:26:37.472 --> 00:26:39.602 in his body, they become so appreciative. 00:26:39.607 --> 00:26:43.442 And so, gosh, I sound like a broken record, but they get sweet. 00:26:44.012 --> 00:26:47.252 Um, and um, I also like to. 00:26:49.347 --> 00:26:54.212 illustrate in a way people can, can understand, you know, the, the importance 00:26:54.212 --> 00:26:56.972 of environment and diet for the horses. 00:26:56.972 --> 00:27:01.172 So if a horse is at the track, you know, we, we have a joke, a racetrack 00:27:01.172 --> 00:27:03.932 saying that you just feed 'em beans and gunpowder, you know, and 00:27:03.932 --> 00:27:04.982 then light a match and off the go, 00:27:06.572 --> 00:27:09.062 Um, so diet and environment, right? 00:27:09.062 --> 00:27:11.462 If you bring home a. 00:27:12.632 --> 00:27:17.462 Border Colly puppy and you live in an apartment and you go to work all day, 00:27:17.522 --> 00:27:21.602 he's probably gonna chew up all your shoes and your credit cards and the walls. 00:27:22.112 --> 00:27:27.452 Um, but if you live on a farm and he goes to work with you all day and he's moving 00:27:27.457 --> 00:27:29.122 all the time, and he is with other dogs. 00:27:30.137 --> 00:27:33.197 people are gonna come to your house at dinnertime and say, how 00:27:33.197 --> 00:27:34.817 come your dog is so well behaved? 00:27:34.817 --> 00:27:37.427 He just sleeps over in the corner and doesn't bother anyone. 00:27:37.667 --> 00:27:41.657 Um, it's the same with the horses when you create the right environment and the right 00:27:41.657 --> 00:27:46.837 diet, um, which helps me and my staff too because I still like to go fast, right? 00:27:47.117 --> 00:27:51.017 So it means that the thoroughbreds you have are reason to get them out and 00:27:51.017 --> 00:27:55.637 go find a good hill and have a proper Gallup and, and move around a little 00:27:55.637 --> 00:27:57.557 bit, um, so that they can regulate. 00:27:58.037 --> 00:27:59.077 Um, and that works for me too. 00:28:00.092 --> 00:28:04.802 So you're saying that, um, you are taking off the track thoroughbreds and through 00:28:04.802 --> 00:28:10.922 a mixture of this classical in-hand work, plus this natural environment. 00:28:11.672 --> 00:28:14.582 Um, cause I know I've seen your California hills that you're working 00:28:14.582 --> 00:28:21.632 on and giving them speed when they need it so that they, correct me if 00:28:21.632 --> 00:28:23.012 I'm wrong, so that they won't need it. 00:28:23.672 --> 00:28:26.552 when they're working with your vulnerable population. 00:28:26.552 --> 00:28:26.642 Mm-hmm. 00:28:26.882 --> 00:28:28.472 because they've got their jollies out basically. 00:28:28.472 --> 00:28:29.032 Is that mm-hmm. 00:28:29.112 --> 00:28:29.352 Mm-hmm. 00:28:29.437 --> 00:28:34.172 , um, means that you end up with a sensitive and giving horse 00:28:34.292 --> 00:28:35.852 that feels good in its body. 00:28:36.422 --> 00:28:36.512 Mm-hmm. 00:28:36.782 --> 00:28:44.072 , um, there's a real beauty in what you're saying in terms of an animal 00:28:44.077 --> 00:28:47.972 that has been, if not broken, or there's some of them, uh, as you say, come 00:28:47.972 --> 00:28:51.872 with injuries in service now being. 00:28:52.517 --> 00:29:00.047 Rehabbed through this work that you do to then go back into service in a way 00:29:00.047 --> 00:29:03.227 that provides it itself with wellbeing. 00:29:05.567 --> 00:29:10.487 There's a story to this that I'd like to unearth, which I 00:29:10.487 --> 00:29:11.717 actually myself don't know. 00:29:11.717 --> 00:29:12.977 Even though I've known you for a while. 00:29:14.597 --> 00:29:15.947 Not everyone knows thoroughbreds. 00:29:15.947 --> 00:29:17.957 Not everyone would be able to do this. 00:29:18.107 --> 00:29:22.822 Um, , let's go back to your earlys. 00:29:24.392 --> 00:29:26.822 Joel, what's your first contact with the horse in your life? 00:29:26.822 --> 00:29:28.052 How did you get into horses? 00:29:30.032 --> 00:29:32.942 , my mother's family were jockeys. 00:29:33.412 --> 00:29:40.672 , some of them very good, some of them really bad, um, and, , but 00:29:40.672 --> 00:29:44.302 all of them violent drunks and. 00:29:46.507 --> 00:29:50.257 . So my mother was terrified of me being anywhere near the track. 00:29:50.917 --> 00:29:56.527 , and she had a rough life growing up and she wanted to create the perfect suburban, 00:29:57.007 --> 00:29:59.637 , upbringing for her family, which she did. 00:30:00.237 --> 00:30:03.447 Um, but it was always horses for me. 00:30:03.627 --> 00:30:07.617 And I can remember I was looking at your questions, um, 00:30:07.647 --> 00:30:09.207 before I, before I dialed up. 00:30:09.972 --> 00:30:16.242 And I can remember being like eight years old at the, at the, at the Park 00:30:16.602 --> 00:30:20.082 Pony ride, you know, where everybody else is three or four years old and I'm 00:30:20.082 --> 00:30:25.152 eight, so I'm bigger than anyone and I'm on this pony on the little track. 00:30:25.872 --> 00:30:32.847 and I am the happiest person on the planet . I just, I can feel it in my body. 00:30:32.847 --> 00:30:37.977 I just, it was just bubbles everywhere and I was so happy. 00:30:37.977 --> 00:30:39.387 I just wanted to cry. 00:30:39.897 --> 00:30:44.667 And, you know, some squeaky little plasticy saddle that I'm sitting 00:30:44.667 --> 00:30:48.867 on, on some poor little pony that's going round and round in circles and. 00:30:50.517 --> 00:30:52.827 , nothing had ever made me so happy. 00:30:53.097 --> 00:31:00.357 And, um, and so I just, whatever I needed to do to be around horses, I did. 00:31:00.477 --> 00:31:05.447 Um, which included, you know, working for lessons or, , there were, there were 00:31:05.452 --> 00:31:08.547 horses on the way to school, , in stables. 00:31:08.547 --> 00:31:10.557 And I remember stuffing. 00:31:11.202 --> 00:31:16.212 Sweatpants underneath my, my Catholic schoolgirl's skirt and 00:31:16.212 --> 00:31:19.992 sneaking into the barn and sitting on their backs while they ate before 00:31:19.992 --> 00:31:23.922 school, um, until I got discovered. 00:31:23.922 --> 00:31:26.412 And there were nobody caught you yet calls to the police? 00:31:26.682 --> 00:31:27.072 Oh, yeah. 00:31:27.072 --> 00:31:32.772 Well, eventually, eventually they did, but um, you know, just being on them and 00:31:32.772 --> 00:31:35.352 smelling them and being with them mm-hmm. 00:31:35.542 --> 00:31:36.562 , , was all I ever wanted. 00:31:36.802 --> 00:31:42.007 And, uh, so by the time I was 18, I was galloping, racehorses at the 00:31:42.007 --> 00:31:43.747 track, much to my mother's chagrin. 00:31:45.157 --> 00:31:51.097 Um, and that was my life for, um, I guess for the next 12 years. 00:31:51.937 --> 00:31:52.207 Yeah. 00:31:52.267 --> 00:31:52.507 Okay. 00:31:53.287 --> 00:31:53.557 Yeah. 00:31:54.007 --> 00:31:58.327 Now, you, you, you, you said that you were galloping racehorses 00:31:58.327 --> 00:32:00.008 on the track from 18 mm-hmm. 00:32:01.057 --> 00:32:06.127 . , I know your story and, , I think it would really help listeners to know your story. 00:32:06.877 --> 00:32:10.242 , because I think there's a link here into service and special needs. 00:32:11.922 --> 00:32:16.272 Something happened to you, um, before that 18th birthday. 00:32:16.528 --> 00:32:17.878 Can you tell us that story? 00:32:18.598 --> 00:32:19.048 Sure. 00:32:19.228 --> 00:32:23.148 , I was, , very unexpectedly a mom at 16. 00:32:23.698 --> 00:32:26.763 , and, and this was where, where, where in the US did that? 00:32:28.073 --> 00:32:29.513 In Sacramento, California. 00:32:29.543 --> 00:32:29.903 Okay. 00:32:29.933 --> 00:32:30.293 Yeah. 00:32:30.593 --> 00:32:32.033 And, , I was an athlete. 00:32:32.083 --> 00:32:34.553 , my son's dad, , was also an athlete. 00:32:34.613 --> 00:32:36.443 Um, we were both swimmers. 00:32:36.503 --> 00:32:37.763 He was into cycling. 00:32:37.763 --> 00:32:40.974 I was, I was running track and cross country, , and we 00:32:40.974 --> 00:32:43.043 were training for triathlons. 00:32:43.193 --> 00:32:45.293 , I somehow thought that that would. 00:32:46.193 --> 00:32:47.273 Act as birth control. 00:32:49.163 --> 00:32:49.613 , . I don't know. 00:32:49.613 --> 00:32:51.353 That sounds like a 16 year old in an outlook. 00:32:51.353 --> 00:32:51.813 Yeah, yeah. 00:32:51.818 --> 00:32:52.193 Doesn't it? 00:32:52.193 --> 00:32:52.523 Yeah. 00:32:52.528 --> 00:32:53.373 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:32:53.483 --> 00:32:57.143 So, um, but I was very, very, very lean. 00:32:57.413 --> 00:33:02.333 Um, which probably between that and being 16 years old and quite stressed, 00:33:02.383 --> 00:33:07.388 , contributed to the fact that he, Greg was born nine weeks early, so 00:33:07.388 --> 00:33:09.398 he was a three and a half pound baby. 00:33:09.518 --> 00:33:14.048 Um, with a 50 50 shadow of survival, three and a half pound baby. 00:33:14.708 --> 00:33:15.128 . Mm-hmm. 00:33:15.134 --> 00:33:15.338 . Mm-hmm. 00:33:15.518 --> 00:33:16.778 . And you're a 16 year old mom. 00:33:17.438 --> 00:33:17.678 Mm-hmm. 00:33:17.918 --> 00:33:20.768 with a, with a premature three and a half pound baby. 00:33:21.458 --> 00:33:22.688 Yeah, yeah. 00:33:23.468 --> 00:33:23.828 Yeah. 00:33:24.038 --> 00:33:24.818 What are you looking at? 00:33:24.818 --> 00:33:26.138 How are people reacting to this? 00:33:27.608 --> 00:33:31.898 You know, I didn't have time to notice how anybody was reacting, cuz I was, I 00:33:31.903 --> 00:33:37.148 was busy praying and visiting and trying to figure out how to breastfeed a baby. 00:33:37.148 --> 00:33:39.998 That's on, you know, that's being tube fed. 00:33:41.848 --> 00:33:44.548 , he, he did marvelously. 00:33:44.548 --> 00:33:50.428 He's is to this day, so strong, um, and pulled through beautifully, 00:33:50.618 --> 00:33:54.548 , and came home about a week and a half before his due date 00:33:54.628 --> 00:33:55.858 joel, I've lost you. 00:33:56.578 --> 00:33:56.938 Hold on. 00:33:57.703 --> 00:33:58.393 I got you back. 00:33:58.753 --> 00:33:59.023 All right. 00:33:59.023 --> 00:34:06.703 So where I lost you is you've got, you're 16, you've got a 00:34:07.663 --> 00:34:09.283 premature baby who's come home. 00:34:10.093 --> 00:34:15.253 You're trying to figure out how to breastfeed with a baby that's on a tube. 00:34:17.053 --> 00:34:22.123 You're trying to figure this out and you are riding racehorse 00:34:22.123 --> 00:34:23.073 at the track for a living. 00:34:24.868 --> 00:34:25.648 No, I wasn't. 00:34:25.738 --> 00:34:30.928 Um, I started galloping racehorses when he was about two and a half. 00:34:31.418 --> 00:34:32.428 Yeah, yeah. 00:34:32.433 --> 00:34:32.728 Okay. 00:34:32.788 --> 00:34:32.998 Yeah. 00:34:32.998 --> 00:34:34.918 Cuz that's what all young moms do, is Yeah. 00:34:34.948 --> 00:34:38.308 When, when their kids hit toddler and they, they, they go and get jobs, 00:34:38.308 --> 00:34:40.348 galloping, two year old thoroughbreds. 00:34:40.468 --> 00:34:42.178 Um, which of course not dangerous or anything. 00:34:42.658 --> 00:34:44.988 and, you took no wrecks of course, I'm sure. 00:34:45.228 --> 00:34:46.488 No, no, no. 00:34:46.493 --> 00:34:47.208 Never fell off, right? 00:34:47.718 --> 00:34:47.958 Mm-hmm. 00:34:48.638 --> 00:35:01.188 M how do you go from this teenage mom surviving by galloping racehorse 00:35:01.488 --> 00:35:08.028 on the track, risking your life, eeking out a dirt, poor wage living, 00:35:08.838 --> 00:35:14.808 dealing with incredibly rough human beings and meeting the challenges of 00:35:14.808 --> 00:35:16.938 being a single mom, at a teenage. 00:35:18.478 --> 00:35:19.968 How, how do you put all this together? 00:35:20.958 --> 00:35:21.408 I don't know. 00:35:22.488 --> 00:35:22.998 I don't know. 00:35:23.088 --> 00:35:25.278 I know that's really unsatisfying, but 00:35:25.589 --> 00:35:30.970 I think I realized that, , you know, I was, I was a mom and it 00:35:30.970 --> 00:35:39.760 was a sacred, um, important duty and that I was his one person who 00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:41.680 was ultimately responsible for him. 00:35:44.200 --> 00:35:50.860 If I was dead inside, I'd have nothing to offer him, and I needed 00:35:50.865 --> 00:35:56.980 something that made me alive inside, and that was horses And galloping. 00:35:56.985 --> 00:36:01.000 Racehorse is a way you get paid to have horses in your life 00:36:01.810 --> 00:36:02.830 and you're done by 10 in the. 00:36:04.155 --> 00:36:09.325 , um, you know, and so I could go to school, I could have another job. 00:36:09.595 --> 00:36:11.215 I could be with my son. 00:36:12.015 --> 00:36:18.015 , so, you know, and, in a, in a, in a way that's for better or for worse, followed 00:36:18.015 --> 00:36:23.355 me through my life trying to cram all these responsibilities in my life. 00:36:23.985 --> 00:36:28.215 Um, so, you know, I was thinking, how do I stay alive inside? 00:36:28.605 --> 00:36:33.645 How do I feed a, a, a love and a passion in me and still feed my family? 00:36:34.125 --> 00:36:35.265 And that's what I did. 00:36:35.655 --> 00:36:40.035 So you go from, um, galloping resources on the track. 00:36:40.235 --> 00:36:40.845 Mm-hmm. 00:36:41.085 --> 00:36:42.555 as a single mom, figuring all this out. 00:36:43.635 --> 00:36:47.325 And a certain time later in your life, you enter the therapeutic 00:36:47.325 --> 00:36:50.475 world with Neurodiverse people. 00:36:50.835 --> 00:36:51.945 What's the connection? 00:36:51.945 --> 00:36:52.815 There's a connection there. 00:36:53.055 --> 00:36:57.105 What happens in the course of those intervening years that. 00:36:57.630 --> 00:36:59.160 Connect you from I. 00:36:59.160 --> 00:37:02.400 Is there, is there something to do with what's going on with your child? 00:37:02.610 --> 00:37:03.480 What takes you there? 00:37:06.270 --> 00:37:08.670 My son had a really unique way of learning. 00:37:09.030 --> 00:37:11.310 School was easy for me. 00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:14.910 Um, I was always successful in school. 00:37:15.240 --> 00:37:17.880 Um, I was successful socially. 00:37:18.450 --> 00:37:23.370 Um, I was a mediocre athlete at whatever I tried. 00:37:24.780 --> 00:37:30.690 Um, for Greg it was different and I realized that it wasn't a 00:37:30.690 --> 00:37:33.120 lack of intelligence on his part. 00:37:33.210 --> 00:37:39.240 In fact, far from it, he had this spectacular curiosity 00:37:39.240 --> 00:37:41.130 to want to know how things. 00:37:42.410 --> 00:37:48.435 and he took things apart and he made terrible messes and he lit things on fire. 00:37:48.435 --> 00:37:55.005 And , he, he, he, he just wanted to know, and he had to touch it and he had to 00:37:55.185 --> 00:37:59.475 tear it up and he had to figure it out. 00:37:59.565 --> 00:38:06.835 And, when you are, , a highly active little boy, um, in our 00:38:06.835 --> 00:38:12.005 school system with a very young distracted mom, , you're a problem. 00:38:12.755 --> 00:38:13.445 You're a problem. 00:38:13.715 --> 00:38:14.645 That's all there is to it. 00:38:15.095 --> 00:38:16.745 And he was a problem. 00:38:16.895 --> 00:38:20.765 And you know, I, I like to say that he hated school. 00:38:20.765 --> 00:38:21.965 I think school hated him. 00:38:23.225 --> 00:38:32.855 And that made me so angry that they just were missing this beautiful intelligence. 00:38:33.305 --> 00:38:39.665 And, um, at the time, uh, you know, , the only resource that I 00:38:39.665 --> 00:38:43.415 had for learning anything about learning was the public library. 00:38:44.615 --> 00:38:51.585 And, , so here I am at, you know, now all of 20, 21, 22 years old with a, 00:38:51.585 --> 00:38:55.455 with a, with a child in elementary school who's already failing. 00:38:56.145 --> 00:39:00.705 Um, and you discovered John Holt and unschooling, and you 00:39:00.705 --> 00:39:03.285 start thinking, wait a minute. 00:39:03.405 --> 00:39:06.855 You mean brains aren't designed to sit still in a classroom and be 00:39:06.860 --> 00:39:09.045 shouted at for the next 13 years? 00:39:09.765 --> 00:39:15.405 Um, you know, and John Holt was a nut, but Gotti was a, he was a brilliant nut. 00:39:15.705 --> 00:39:19.815 And then you start looking at Waldorf education, which, you know, 00:39:19.815 --> 00:39:23.985 how is a Gallup girl, um, going to afford a private Waldorf education? 00:39:24.482 --> 00:39:28.202 Here's these people talking about taking children out into gardens and growing 00:39:28.202 --> 00:39:33.332 their own food and, and, and, and I start thinking, no, this is how he learns. 00:39:33.332 --> 00:39:34.892 He learns hands on. 00:39:35.192 --> 00:39:37.292 He learns by experiencing things. 00:39:38.162 --> 00:39:42.662 And as I'm learning this and as I'm watching him, he's failing and he's 00:39:42.662 --> 00:39:44.852 failing and he's being labeled a problem. 00:39:44.852 --> 00:39:49.782 And his behaviors are, , you know, I, how do you take a beautiful eight year 00:39:49.782 --> 00:39:52.662 old and have a depressed, angry child? 00:39:53.742 --> 00:39:56.082 And I got angry and I got protective. 00:39:56.082 --> 00:40:01.422 And I didn't get angrier protected enough because I kept being told he just 00:40:01.422 --> 00:40:03.432 needs to sit down and shut up and do it. 00:40:04.332 --> 00:40:08.822 Um, and , and I just kept getting more curious. 00:40:08.822 --> 00:40:14.132 He taught me so much about learning and so often I would just have to pull 00:40:14.132 --> 00:40:17.702 him completely out of school because it was just torturous for everyone. 00:40:18.002 --> 00:40:21.722 And so here I am working, you know, two and three jobs at the time, 00:40:21.722 --> 00:40:22.982 still working at the racetrack. 00:40:23.582 --> 00:40:27.392 And, um, and I got a homeschool him on top of it. 00:40:28.022 --> 00:40:33.632 , and then I just, I had to rely on other people to, you know, I had to build 00:40:33.632 --> 00:40:36.662 a village for him, , in how to learn. 00:40:36.722 --> 00:40:40.652 And the village that came together was not the one that I expected or 00:40:40.652 --> 00:40:43.682 even wanted, uh, at the racetrack. 00:40:44.222 --> 00:40:49.162 The, , they're all union jobs and the security guards are union cops. 00:40:49.462 --> 00:40:52.162 Most of them semi-retired, a lot of them wounded. 00:40:52.322 --> 00:40:54.207 , San Francisco and Oakland beat cops. 00:40:56.167 --> 00:40:56.697 , I don't like it. 00:40:56.697 --> 00:41:02.667 But to this day, my son loves weapons and he learned how to respect a weapon. 00:41:02.667 --> 00:41:04.317 He learned how to care for a weapon. 00:41:04.317 --> 00:41:10.587 He learned how to handle a weapon from these cops at the racetrack. 00:41:10.917 --> 00:41:12.447 And they were so good to him. 00:41:12.452 --> 00:41:15.837 And the, and the corporation yard, the guys who built things, 00:41:15.957 --> 00:41:17.997 you know, they were kind to him. 00:41:18.147 --> 00:41:22.407 Um, the guys in the video department, cuz I worked in the video department at 00:41:22.407 --> 00:41:24.207 night, showed him how to wire things up. 00:41:25.047 --> 00:41:29.757 Um, it was all hands on and that's where he would thrive and that's 00:41:29.757 --> 00:41:32.547 where he would shine and that's where he would be successful. 00:41:33.297 --> 00:41:36.287 And, , and he's a mechanic today, you know, horse short. 00:41:36.387 --> 00:41:36.667 You learned. 00:41:36.677 --> 00:41:41.537 So you learned how to, create community learning, teaching community. 00:41:43.637 --> 00:41:46.157 I, you said you had to homeschool and you immediately rather 00:41:46.157 --> 00:41:50.117 modestly, leap towards what other people, uh, were teaching your son. 00:41:50.882 --> 00:41:51.902 What did you learn? 00:41:51.902 --> 00:41:53.432 How did you learn to teach? 00:41:53.432 --> 00:41:54.992 Tell us a couple of stories from that. 00:41:55.082 --> 00:41:59.042 H h how did he teach you how to teach a child like him? 00:41:59.792 --> 00:42:05.282 Yeah, so I remember, you know, here, I, I was working at least two jobs. 00:42:05.287 --> 00:42:08.402 I was galloping race horses in the morning, and I was working for 00:42:08.407 --> 00:42:09.632 the racetrack in the afternoon. 00:42:09.692 --> 00:42:15.272 So Mondays and Tuesdays were our days for school and we had to, we had to 00:42:15.272 --> 00:42:19.712 log X amount of hours of schoolwork and turn that into the school district. 00:42:19.712 --> 00:42:25.802 And that's how I was able to, so, so we, we would collectively game the system. 00:42:26.072 --> 00:42:30.032 So we would go to downtown Berkeley and we would go and watch 00:42:30.572 --> 00:42:32.882 a foreign film and eat popcorn. 00:42:33.512 --> 00:42:38.492 And so we would log two hours of reading because we had to read the subtitles. 00:42:39.302 --> 00:42:42.182 Two hours of foreign language and two hours of history. 00:42:42.872 --> 00:42:50.162 We're six hours in and we've had popcorn , you know, . Um, but it was really out 00:42:50.162 --> 00:42:55.622 in movement and you know, playing in the water and building dams and climbing 00:42:55.802 --> 00:43:03.262 trees and reading books that he wanted to hear about and that was humor He loved. 00:43:03.267 --> 00:43:05.962 I think the hitchhikers guy did the galaxy, changed his life, 00:43:06.052 --> 00:43:08.902 you know, suddenly reading wasn't a chore and it wasn't awful. 00:43:08.902 --> 00:43:09.742 It was funny. 00:43:10.102 --> 00:43:11.212 And where did you do this? 00:43:11.212 --> 00:43:11.572 Reading? 00:43:13.492 --> 00:43:19.822 As often as we could outside up in trees, you know, at the beach, wherever you 00:43:19.822 --> 00:43:21.602 climb into the trees with him and read. 00:43:22.102 --> 00:43:23.962 Of course, I still climb trees. 00:43:23.962 --> 00:43:24.382 I love you. 00:43:24.382 --> 00:43:25.282 Say, of course. 00:43:25.282 --> 00:43:29.452 I can tell you, Joel, your average teacher, let alone 00:43:29.452 --> 00:43:32.002 mum does not climb into trees. 00:43:32.842 --> 00:43:34.102 . Well, they're missing something. 00:43:35.032 --> 00:43:38.542 What made you able to follow your child like that? 00:43:40.632 --> 00:43:42.082 , it was probably de desperation. 00:43:42.262 --> 00:43:43.252 Nothing else worked. 00:43:43.272 --> 00:43:43.832 Mm-hmm. 00:43:43.912 --> 00:43:47.122 , you know, if, if, if, if shouting at him to sit down and shut up and 00:43:47.122 --> 00:43:51.172 just do the homework worked, maybe that's where our lives would've been. 00:43:51.652 --> 00:43:56.602 But, you know, the universe had other plans and, um, nothing else worked. 00:43:57.172 --> 00:44:00.172 The only time he was happy. 00:44:00.232 --> 00:44:06.262 And there's a, there's an all hands on science museum in San Francisco. 00:44:06.682 --> 00:44:09.742 Uh, well now there's several, you know, this was right, this 00:44:09.742 --> 00:44:12.652 was 25 years ago, 28 years ago. 00:44:13.072 --> 00:44:17.212 and taking him there and just letting him run loose and touch 00:44:17.272 --> 00:44:19.492 everything and experience things. 00:44:20.002 --> 00:44:25.732 And, and then I remember one time we went to the, the aquarium in San Francisco. 00:44:25.732 --> 00:44:26.722 This was the old one. 00:44:27.682 --> 00:44:31.962 And, so here it is, you know, he's homeschooling and, um, and we're in 00:44:31.967 --> 00:44:35.162 the aquarium and we're down below and there's, there's penguins. 00:44:35.757 --> 00:44:36.887 , you know, in the, in the tank. 00:44:37.817 --> 00:44:43.307 And Greg is running back and forth and the penguins are swimming with 00:44:43.307 --> 00:44:46.457 him and following him back and forth, and he's having the best time. 00:44:46.877 --> 00:44:50.297 And we look over and there's a group of school kids with the teacher, 00:44:50.537 --> 00:44:53.747 you know, who's making them go through and do everything in this 00:44:53.747 --> 00:44:56.297 very quiet sort of organized way. 00:44:56.597 --> 00:45:02.897 And every kid was so desperately jealous, of this little boy who could run with the 00:45:02.897 --> 00:45:05.237 penguins in having the time of his life. 00:45:05.537 --> 00:45:08.177 And suddenly he looked up and he went, I'm the lucky one. 00:45:08.357 --> 00:45:09.767 You know, nobody's telling me. 00:45:09.827 --> 00:45:12.647 And, uh, the penguins were having a great time. 00:45:12.677 --> 00:45:13.817 I was having a great time. 00:45:13.817 --> 00:45:15.167 Greg was having a great time. 00:45:15.677 --> 00:45:17.417 That's how you learn to follow the child. 00:45:17.537 --> 00:45:19.487 You know, you have those little moments where you go, 00:45:19.487 --> 00:45:21.767 oh, this is actually learning. 00:45:23.177 --> 00:45:26.507 So you, you're saying, Greg, to this day, he's doing great. 00:45:26.507 --> 00:45:27.347 He's a mechanic. 00:45:27.352 --> 00:45:28.757 He's, he's a horseshoe. 00:45:29.077 --> 00:45:29.687 Mm-hmm. 00:45:30.227 --> 00:45:30.317 . Mm-hmm. 00:45:31.187 --> 00:45:32.927 , did he become a horseman with you? 00:45:35.537 --> 00:45:40.157 He horses were part of his life, his whole life. 00:45:40.427 --> 00:45:43.487 Um, you know, his first babysitters were horses, right? 00:45:43.637 --> 00:45:44.807 Big thoroughbreds. 00:45:44.867 --> 00:45:49.657 And, but school was continued to be torturous and, and awful for him. 00:45:49.657 --> 00:45:55.587 And so he was in his senior year of high school, and, and he 00:45:55.587 --> 00:45:57.897 just, he just wasn't going to go. 00:45:57.987 --> 00:45:59.547 He knew he wasn't gonna graduate. 00:46:00.207 --> 00:46:01.227 He hated school. 00:46:01.317 --> 00:46:05.727 And, they call this now school refusal, which there wasn't a term then. 00:46:06.487 --> 00:46:13.277 , a dear friend of mine, uh, who had, , a program in Maui, saw us really struggling 00:46:13.277 --> 00:46:18.767 and fighting and fussing and, and, and Greg had really fallen in with a, with 00:46:18.767 --> 00:46:23.912 a bad bunch of kids, who had some pretty, uh, dangerous lifestyle habits. 00:46:24.182 --> 00:46:31.502 Um, and so she just intervened and she said, uh, Greg, why don't 00:46:31.502 --> 00:46:32.972 you come to Maui and work for me? 00:46:34.172 --> 00:46:36.932 And he was, he was only 17 at the time. 00:46:38.522 --> 00:46:42.932 And, uh, and we decided that, that we would, you know, this was a 00:46:42.932 --> 00:46:46.592 friend that I loved and trusted, and she was, she was willing. 00:46:46.802 --> 00:46:47.942 And so he did. 00:46:48.122 --> 00:46:51.992 And he went to Maui and he was working on a horse farm. 00:46:52.202 --> 00:46:57.062 And, uh, her stepson, is on the spectrum and they lived together. 00:46:57.692 --> 00:47:04.292 And, um, and he, he was famous for really violent meltdowns, and that 00:47:04.292 --> 00:47:09.332 was part of j Greg's job was to keep Ryan from hurting himself or others. 00:47:10.142 --> 00:47:13.142 And, um, and it was a hard job. 00:47:13.352 --> 00:47:15.382 And, , and, and the job fell apart. 00:47:16.202 --> 00:47:20.942 so now here's my not quite 18 year old son living out of his car 00:47:20.942 --> 00:47:24.512 in Maui, and, uh, every month. 00:47:24.852 --> 00:47:25.382 Yeah, yeah. 00:47:25.922 --> 00:47:26.582 Right, right. 00:47:27.032 --> 00:47:32.402 Um, and, another friend in Maui called, and uh, and she said, is, 00:47:32.402 --> 00:47:33.842 is Greg still looking for work? 00:47:33.847 --> 00:47:34.592 I said, he is. 00:47:35.252 --> 00:47:38.552 And she said, I, I really need someone to work for me at, at my farm. 00:47:38.882 --> 00:47:43.172 And so I called him because every homeless person in Maui has a cell phone. 00:47:43.682 --> 00:47:47.542 And and I said, you know, look, uh, Jillian needs someone to 00:47:47.542 --> 00:47:49.402 work for her at PE Holo stables. 00:47:49.402 --> 00:47:52.732 And he's like, God, mom, I'm so sick and tired of horses. 00:47:52.732 --> 00:47:55.322 I've been scooping horse manure my whole life, LA la. 00:47:55.702 --> 00:47:58.882 And I said, look, I, I understand it's not a career move, but it's a roof 00:47:58.887 --> 00:48:02.992 over your head and it's a hot meal tonight, so just, just give it a go. 00:48:03.442 --> 00:48:06.562 So he agreed and he called her and he went to work for her and. 00:48:08.152 --> 00:48:09.712 I don't think it was a week later. 00:48:09.982 --> 00:48:13.162 She was an avid polo player. 00:48:13.972 --> 00:48:18.922 And the Maui Polo Club, I think is the oldest continually operating 00:48:18.922 --> 00:48:20.512 polo club in the United States. 00:48:20.512 --> 00:48:21.682 It's a, it's a big scene. 00:48:22.732 --> 00:48:28.202 So she goes out into the, um, first game of the season and, um, somebody 00:48:28.207 --> 00:48:32.872 rides by her the opposite direction, catches her stir up and turns her leg 00:48:32.872 --> 00:48:36.472 completely around the other direction, a really, really violent break. 00:48:37.342 --> 00:48:39.772 And she was laying in the hospital and she says to Greg, 00:48:39.862 --> 00:48:41.872 um, I need you to run everything. 00:48:41.932 --> 00:48:45.742 I need you to, um, run all the lessons, take care of the 00:48:45.742 --> 00:48:47.572 horses, and there's no money. 00:48:48.142 --> 00:48:53.422 Um, but what I do have is I have a string of horses, I have a rig, and I 00:48:53.422 --> 00:48:55.642 have a membership to the Maui Polo Club. 00:48:55.702 --> 00:48:58.522 So you can have my membership for the year if you'll do it. 00:48:59.557 --> 00:49:04.897 From homeless to member of the mouth, from homeless to to member with a full string. 00:49:04.987 --> 00:49:05.257 Yeah. 00:49:05.767 --> 00:49:06.097 Yeah. 00:49:06.097 --> 00:49:07.567 It's such a Maui story. 00:49:08.107 --> 00:49:13.312 Um, and, the, the local pro saw a lot of talent. 00:49:13.612 --> 00:49:17.142 Um, you know, because Greg knew horses very, very, very well from 00:49:17.212 --> 00:49:20.902 the ground and wasn't afraid of hot horses cuz he'd been around racehorses 00:49:20.902 --> 00:49:25.252 his whole life and took him under his wing and, and privately tutored him. 00:49:25.582 --> 00:49:31.852 And, uh, within a year, I think Greg was rated, um, one goal outdoor and 00:49:31.852 --> 00:49:34.972 two goals indoor, which is unheard of. 00:49:35.782 --> 00:49:37.682 And it really changed his life. 00:49:37.682 --> 00:49:44.432 And so the fact that horses would be a turning point in his life where he wanted 00:49:44.432 --> 00:49:49.412 to be healthy and he wanted to be engaged in life, um, was a dream come true for me. 00:49:50.062 --> 00:49:54.892 , he came back to the States and, uh, started working for us. 00:49:55.372 --> 00:50:00.157 Um, adopted a horse off the track, whom, you know, who would 00:50:00.162 --> 00:50:01.837 go through a forest fire for Greg. 00:50:02.137 --> 00:50:06.427 , got involved with a girl who was working for us, who is now, a quite 00:50:06.427 --> 00:50:07.987 accomplished trainer in her own right. 00:50:08.617 --> 00:50:11.347 And that's brings us to today. 00:50:14.227 --> 00:50:18.547 So you follow, you, you're a 16 year old girl, you get pregnant, you end up 00:50:18.547 --> 00:50:20.557 with, uh, somewhat special needs son. 00:50:20.887 --> 00:50:24.217 You at least in terms of what would people now would probably 00:50:24.217 --> 00:50:26.297 call a D d A D H D and mm-hmm. 00:50:26.377 --> 00:50:28.057 , oppositional defiant, and so on and so on. 00:50:28.177 --> 00:50:31.597 So, neurodiverse, you are galloping resources at the track. 00:50:32.497 --> 00:50:37.657 You find a way by following your child reading books and trees going into nature, 00:50:37.657 --> 00:50:40.267 moving and finding community for him. 00:50:41.407 --> 00:50:46.897 Um, To the point where he can find a way for, for horses to bring him from 00:50:47.107 --> 00:50:49.117 homeless to a two gold polo player. 00:50:51.337 --> 00:50:56.227 You then said he came back and started working for us and adopted 00:50:56.227 --> 00:50:57.277 a thoroughbred off the track. 00:50:57.727 --> 00:51:03.037 Somewhere in there you went from single mum galloping race horses on 00:51:03.037 --> 00:51:10.387 the track to having a program, taking off the track thoroughbreds and using 00:51:10.387 --> 00:51:13.447 them therapeutically, fill that gap. 00:51:13.477 --> 00:51:14.077 What happened? 00:51:15.727 --> 00:51:21.617 Um, I think just pretty naturally, when you gallup horses at the track, you start 00:51:21.617 --> 00:51:23.957 to wonder what happens to them afterwards. 00:51:24.977 --> 00:51:29.717 Um, and then you start placing them, um, which is a great 00:51:29.747 --> 00:51:31.697 excuse to do a little competing. 00:51:32.227 --> 00:51:33.517 But then. 00:51:35.542 --> 00:51:40.657 , you, you have these horses that, you know, they're not a 16 one hand gray gelding. 00:51:40.867 --> 00:51:44.797 Um, you know, with a, with a nice balanced body that is going to 00:51:45.007 --> 00:51:47.437 very easily find a, a, a show home. 00:51:47.977 --> 00:51:50.977 You know, what do you do with a, with a one-eyed horse with a big 00:51:50.977 --> 00:51:56.257 ankle, um, who's a fantastic horse who gave you everything on the track? 00:51:56.797 --> 00:51:57.997 How do you help that horse? 00:51:58.087 --> 00:52:00.787 Um, cuz that's gonna be a hard horse to, to place. 00:52:02.647 --> 00:52:06.457 And then I just started thinking about the car bank debt that 00:52:06.457 --> 00:52:08.827 we owe horses as a rule. 00:52:09.487 --> 00:52:13.217 You know, everything that a horse has done for humanity, but in 00:52:13.217 --> 00:52:18.917 particular racehorse because they so willingly give you everything. 00:52:19.187 --> 00:52:22.217 Um, and they do get hurt and they do break down. 00:52:22.557 --> 00:52:23.187 I started. 00:52:23.787 --> 00:52:27.627 Collecting is the wrong word, but there were few horses that I knew were gonna be 00:52:27.627 --> 00:52:29.667 really, really, really tricky to place. 00:52:29.877 --> 00:52:34.887 And um, so what can those horses do? 00:52:36.027 --> 00:52:41.577 And, um, then you realize that you, you've got to have a lot of skill 00:52:41.577 --> 00:52:46.887 with, , with, with keeping them comfortable in their bodies and a lot 00:52:46.887 --> 00:52:50.817 of skill with, with training them so that they're quiet enough in their 00:52:50.817 --> 00:52:57.057 bodies to maybe be a lower level school master, um, or be a good trail horse. 00:52:57.237 --> 00:53:01.947 Um, so it really started with the square peg horses, right? 00:53:01.947 --> 00:53:04.197 The horses that were gonna have a hard time fitting in. 00:53:04.917 --> 00:53:13.917 Um, but I had an experience, I, I I, I started to garner, and I think probably 00:53:14.097 --> 00:53:20.727 just from my experience with, with realizing, that people learn a whole lot 00:53:21.117 --> 00:53:23.247 differently than we were taught to teach. 00:53:24.057 --> 00:53:28.797 Um, so I'd gotten a reputation in, in running a writing school for, for 00:53:28.797 --> 00:53:33.387 working with kids that were gonna be a little more difficult to teach. 00:53:33.447 --> 00:53:36.927 And, um, you know, a friend of mine told me one time, it 00:53:36.927 --> 00:53:38.757 takes no talent to teach talent. 00:53:39.867 --> 00:53:42.417 And I thought, well, that's an interesting, that's 00:53:42.687 --> 00:53:43.677 an interesting challenge. 00:53:43.767 --> 00:53:44.067 Yeah. 00:53:44.072 --> 00:53:44.327 Mm-hmm. 00:53:45.387 --> 00:53:47.367 . Um, and it's certainly true, right? 00:53:47.367 --> 00:53:52.257 If we think about it, and, you know, we, we so often wanna compete for 00:53:52.677 --> 00:53:54.867 those clients who are talented. 00:53:55.527 --> 00:53:58.167 , you know, and, and those clients don't stick around, right? 00:53:58.167 --> 00:54:00.507 Because they get recruited by every other trainer. 00:54:00.507 --> 00:54:02.367 And I thought, I don't wanna do this. 00:54:02.367 --> 00:54:05.187 I really wanna invest in, in students. 00:54:06.452 --> 00:54:10.377 I wanna spend time with and with horses that I wanna spend time with. 00:54:10.377 --> 00:54:14.007 I didn't want to be in a business where I was just turning horses over 00:54:14.487 --> 00:54:16.257 constantly and turning clients over. 00:54:16.377 --> 00:54:21.837 I wanted people that, um, you know, if they wanted to launch into a different 00:54:21.837 --> 00:54:25.647 discipline that I didn't specialize in, that would be great, but it would be, it 00:54:25.647 --> 00:54:31.167 would be a natural movement rather than this, this kind of ugly dog eat dog sort 00:54:31.167 --> 00:54:33.357 of world that I saw in the horse business. 00:54:34.617 --> 00:54:40.407 And, uh, so I got a reputation as a, as a, as a, as an instructor who, 00:54:40.497 --> 00:54:44.817 who had, and I'm putting air quotes around a lot of patients cuz I don't, 00:54:45.147 --> 00:54:48.417 I don't know how anybody can be successful in the horse world unless 00:54:48.417 --> 00:54:52.167 you have some degree of patience and. 00:54:54.772 --> 00:55:00.387 . So this family brought this little girl, uh, out for writing lessons, and 00:55:00.417 --> 00:55:05.007 she was just, she's just a cute little red-haired, freckle face little girl. 00:55:05.277 --> 00:55:06.417 And she was very shy. 00:55:07.527 --> 00:55:11.907 And the parents came to me and said, well, um, she has autism. 00:55:11.997 --> 00:55:13.857 And I said, well, what, what does that mean? 00:55:14.007 --> 00:55:16.407 And they said, it, it, it, it means nothing. 00:55:16.407 --> 00:55:18.267 Just treat her like any other child. 00:55:18.537 --> 00:55:19.677 I said, oh, okay. 00:55:20.037 --> 00:55:22.287 And she was shy and, and we could work around that. 00:55:22.287 --> 00:55:25.587 And she certainly seemed like she liked the horses, even 00:55:25.592 --> 00:55:26.997 if she was afraid of them. 00:55:27.357 --> 00:55:33.722 And, uh, so I had thrown her into a few group lessons and, we were out 00:55:33.722 --> 00:55:35.852 one day a day, I'll never forget. 00:55:37.172 --> 00:55:42.992 And, we're in the ring and, and it's just one of those windy, shitty days. 00:55:43.202 --> 00:55:46.082 And, um, the horses are distracted. 00:55:46.922 --> 00:55:51.092 My voice isn't carrying, so I'm shouting really loud to be heard. 00:55:51.092 --> 00:55:54.992 And, um, and the barn crew decides that they've had it with this 00:55:54.992 --> 00:55:58.022 crappy weather, and they're gonna feed the horses early and go home. 00:55:58.532 --> 00:56:02.342 So now I'm teaching a group lesson and all the horses in the arena can hear 00:56:02.342 --> 00:56:04.082 is the horses in the barn being fed? 00:56:04.082 --> 00:56:06.212 So now they're super distracted. 00:56:06.812 --> 00:56:09.632 So every time this little girl goes by the gate, of course the 00:56:09.632 --> 00:56:14.252 horse just hangs a hard right hand turn to the, to the, to the gate. 00:56:15.332 --> 00:56:19.712 So I do what every riding instructor since the dawn of time says to do. 00:56:19.717 --> 00:56:24.392 And I shout at her to hold her left ring and the horse ducks to the gate. 00:56:25.022 --> 00:56:28.082 So we go around again, and of course the horse ducks to the gate. 00:56:28.082 --> 00:56:31.472 So I did what I was supposed to do, I thought, and that is, shout 00:56:31.502 --> 00:56:34.652 more loudly to hold the left rain. 00:56:36.722 --> 00:56:40.382 So this goes on and it's just getting awful and I'm doing my best. 00:56:40.382 --> 00:56:41.612 I'm shouting so loud. 00:56:42.782 --> 00:56:44.432 . Obviously anybody could understand. 00:56:44.432 --> 00:56:47.927 All you have to do is hold the damn left reign, so I go marching over. 00:56:48.152 --> 00:56:49.592 I like the languages in schools too, right? 00:56:49.712 --> 00:56:50.762 It's true, it's true. 00:56:50.762 --> 00:56:51.032 Yeah. 00:56:51.052 --> 00:56:51.772 Shout louder. 00:56:51.772 --> 00:56:53.132 Yeah, shout louder. 00:56:53.432 --> 00:56:57.122 And, uh, which I was doing, you know, with alacrity, I was, 00:56:57.122 --> 00:56:58.412 I was really holding my line. 00:56:58.562 --> 00:57:05.582 And um, so I ran over and I grabbed the horse's rain and I made a face 00:57:05.587 --> 00:57:07.292 at this beautiful little girl. 00:57:07.297 --> 00:57:13.112 And I, and I looked up at her and I said, all you have to do is hold the left rain. 00:57:14.342 --> 00:57:18.452 And she leans over and she gets almost nose to nose with 00:57:18.452 --> 00:57:20.162 me and she just whispers. 00:57:21.842 --> 00:57:24.332 I'm trying, hi. 00:57:26.912 --> 00:57:33.032 And I, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:57:34.317 --> 00:57:38.042 and the whole, I felt the ground underneath me. 00:57:39.152 --> 00:57:40.892 Just move and shake. 00:57:41.462 --> 00:57:41.612 Yeah. 00:57:41.882 --> 00:57:43.532 Everything changed in that moment. 00:57:43.982 --> 00:57:44.192 Yeah. 00:57:44.222 --> 00:57:50.552 Everything changed and I think that was the moment my life changed and I 00:57:50.557 --> 00:57:53.162 realized this is the service I need to do. 00:57:53.972 --> 00:57:57.842 I need to recognize when someone's trying. 00:57:57.902 --> 00:58:05.072 I need to honor the student way more than I was, and I needed to change 00:58:05.072 --> 00:58:06.422 the way I thought about everything. 00:58:08.802 --> 00:58:09.292 Yeah. 00:58:12.032 --> 00:58:14.372 Now, Joel, well, hats off because not every writing 00:58:14.372 --> 00:58:17.162 instructor would've listened. 00:58:18.332 --> 00:58:18.572 Hmm. 00:58:19.922 --> 00:58:20.822 What made you listen? 00:58:23.372 --> 00:58:25.882 I don't know, but it was so profound. 00:58:25.882 --> 00:58:28.082 It was such a physical experience. 00:58:28.232 --> 00:58:28.472 Mm-hmm. 00:58:30.707 --> 00:58:37.997 . and I realized that I'm not teaching any, I, I don't believe, and I've 00:58:37.997 --> 00:58:39.497 thought about this a lot since then. 00:58:40.127 --> 00:58:45.077 I don't believe that anyone has ever taught anyone anything. 00:58:46.817 --> 00:58:50.597 I think we learn when we decide to learn. 00:58:51.287 --> 00:58:59.327 And if you wear the mantle of teacher, you have to honor that 00:58:59.657 --> 00:59:05.837 every day that all you can do is present information the best you can. 00:59:07.097 --> 00:59:10.877 And the learning is, is, is up to the learner, not the teacher. 00:59:11.210 --> 00:59:12.860 And I think it's the same with horses too. 00:59:13.730 --> 00:59:14.060 You know? 00:59:14.600 --> 00:59:18.650 I mean, how many, how many ways to the pi off are there? 00:59:19.220 --> 00:59:20.450 There's so many ways. 00:59:20.455 --> 00:59:22.530 And every horse is gonna show you their. 00:59:25.485 --> 00:59:27.920 and you can't teach the poff. 00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:33.020 You have to search and look for it and see what happens, and then you can help 00:59:33.020 --> 00:59:36.321 develop it, but you're not teaching it. 00:59:36.517 --> 00:59:37.567 What happened to that little girl? 00:59:38.677 --> 00:59:39.007 Hmm. 00:59:39.884 --> 00:59:41.804 That family? 00:59:41.924 --> 00:59:46.214 I was associated, um, with some families that were close to that family. 00:59:46.754 --> 00:59:52.214 I think at that time, and you can speak to this certainly better than 00:59:52.219 --> 00:59:58.994 I can, at that time, there was very much a very big school of, um, what I 00:59:58.994 --> 01:00:04.394 call the Get over it School of Autism Therapy, . I do remember that school. 01:00:04.394 --> 01:00:05.234 And it's still out there. 01:00:06.254 --> 01:00:06.644 Yeah. 01:00:06.734 --> 01:00:07.064 Yeah. 01:00:07.064 --> 01:00:10.694 And, and that family was quite dedicated to that school. 01:00:11.124 --> 01:00:11.614 Yeah. 01:00:12.284 --> 01:00:12.774 Yeah. 01:00:13.057 --> 01:00:20.827 did you manage after that moment where she communicated to you, that she 01:00:20.827 --> 01:00:30.367 needed compassion and joy before she was taken away to a world of less joy? 01:00:31.447 --> 01:00:35.137 Would you say that you managed to switch her approach with her? 01:00:35.867 --> 01:00:36.357 Yeah. 01:00:36.357 --> 01:00:36.637 Yeah. 01:00:36.642 --> 01:00:37.927 And how, how did you do it? 01:00:37.927 --> 01:00:38.527 What did you do? 01:00:38.587 --> 01:00:39.217 What did you change? 01:00:39.307 --> 01:00:43.687 Well, the first thing I did is I told, uh, I told the parents that 01:00:43.687 --> 01:00:46.207 I, I only wanted to work one-on-one. 01:00:47.707 --> 01:00:53.947 Um, and then we went to the round pen, you know, where, where we could, we could, 01:00:54.254 --> 01:00:57.134 you know, Skinner would call it sterilizing the environment, right? 01:00:57.134 --> 01:01:01.244 Where you had less distractions and you had less things that she needed to do. 01:01:01.244 --> 01:01:04.154 She didn't need to necessarily steer, she could just. 01:01:04.934 --> 01:01:07.424 , you know, feeling the horse going forward and we could, we 01:01:07.429 --> 01:01:10.094 could add one element at a time. 01:01:10.604 --> 01:01:15.584 Um, and uh, and then I just decided that it had to be more fun. 01:01:16.064 --> 01:01:16.154 Mm-hmm. 01:01:16.394 --> 01:01:20.774 just had to be more fun, you know, nobody ever changed the world because 01:01:20.774 --> 01:01:22.454 they knew what diagonal to post on. 01:01:22.694 --> 01:01:30.134 Like, it's, it's never actually made the world any better, . Um, uh, but 01:01:30.134 --> 01:01:33.584 you know, that was, that was early on, but it was how, how was definitely 01:01:33.584 --> 01:01:37.844 how before we go, cause it's a really interesting point cause the, the listeners 01:01:37.844 --> 01:01:39.434 don't know where you've gotten to. 01:01:39.439 --> 01:01:43.904 Now we will get there because it's worth hanging with this, anyone who's 01:01:43.904 --> 01:01:52.424 listening because, Joel's program is for sure, uh, I'd say it's probably 01:01:52.424 --> 01:01:56.214 one of the, it's in the top 10 in the world, um, in terms of its 01:01:56.219 --> 01:01:59.104 effectiveness, , with Neurodiverse people. 01:02:00.074 --> 01:02:01.244 . , and we'll go into why that is. 01:02:01.424 --> 01:02:04.964 So how did you make it more fun? 01:02:05.054 --> 01:02:06.524 How did you make it more joyful? 01:02:07.334 --> 01:02:07.904 What did you do? 01:02:08.084 --> 01:02:08.774 What did you change? 01:02:10.364 --> 01:02:11.774 I changed me, right? 01:02:11.894 --> 01:02:17.414 I changed the focus or the intention that who cares about this 01:02:17.414 --> 01:02:20.084 academic world of riding a horse? 01:02:20.084 --> 01:02:21.974 Let's, let's just enjoy it. 01:02:22.034 --> 01:02:23.834 What do you like about the horse? 01:02:23.834 --> 01:02:25.184 Which horse do you like? 01:02:25.214 --> 01:02:27.494 What is he, you know, is he funny? 01:02:27.494 --> 01:02:28.394 Is he sweet? 01:02:28.394 --> 01:02:32.264 Or when you're scared, you know, what does he do that's scary? 01:02:32.269 --> 01:02:38.804 So it was, it was an invitation to having conversations about not just what 01:02:38.804 --> 01:02:40.844 the horse was, but who the horse was. 01:02:40.844 --> 01:02:44.264 So personalizing the horse, I think was, was something that 01:02:44.269 --> 01:02:46.124 came pretty naturally to me. 01:02:46.184 --> 01:02:49.454 But, you know, when you, when you find yourself running a, a riding 01:02:49.454 --> 01:02:51.374 school, you know, the numbers add up. 01:02:51.374 --> 01:02:55.334 And if you can get six horses, six kids and horses in a lesson, 01:02:55.814 --> 01:02:57.014 you know, you can make a living. 01:02:57.164 --> 01:03:00.039 , but making it way more personal. 01:03:00.549 --> 01:03:04.069 Um, and then, and, and, and then, and then fun. 01:03:04.579 --> 01:03:06.739 You know, do you think the horse is having fun? 01:03:06.739 --> 01:03:08.719 Well, what could the horse do that's having fun? 01:03:09.349 --> 01:03:12.679 Um, and that started to change everything and it just gave me so 01:03:12.679 --> 01:03:18.469 much freedom to do something way more interesting than some type of 01:03:18.469 --> 01:03:20.419 an academic writing school, you know? 01:03:20.419 --> 01:03:24.049 Which then I later learned, came out of a military tradition. 01:03:24.049 --> 01:03:25.009 That's how I came up. 01:03:25.129 --> 01:03:29.089 You know, I was shouted at and screamed at and told how awful I was. 01:03:29.509 --> 01:03:34.209 I mean, I did my time there and, and just, um, and, and I'm grateful 01:03:34.529 --> 01:03:40.659 actually to those teachers because, because it helped me understand what 01:03:40.659 --> 01:03:42.729 I didn't want in a writing school. 01:03:42.729 --> 01:03:48.159 And in those moments where I'm shouting to hold the left reign thinking. 01:03:48.834 --> 01:03:50.364 . Well, this is, this is no good. 01:03:50.634 --> 01:03:51.594 This isn't what I want. 01:03:52.044 --> 01:03:59.754 So before we move on from where this girl changed you to where you are now, um, 01:04:00.054 --> 01:04:08.824 which is an impressive, uh, climb, does a memory stand out from this girl before she 01:04:09.144 --> 01:04:12.714 left your life where it did become fun? 01:04:12.714 --> 01:04:14.574 Where, where, where, where it became healing? 01:04:15.534 --> 01:04:16.144 Mm-hmm. 01:04:16.224 --> 01:04:16.584 . Mm-hmm. 01:04:17.544 --> 01:04:24.864 . Well, what happened was, um, because I'd been quite a bit more successful 01:04:24.954 --> 01:04:30.424 with this, with this girl, autism family just started coming in, um, 01:04:30.484 --> 01:04:35.434 and some of whom are still in my life, and that was 20 some odd years ago. 01:04:36.724 --> 01:04:37.024 Yeah. 01:04:39.184 --> 01:04:40.324 Uh, and so. 01:04:40.761 --> 01:04:45.261 it became one of the few places that she could go where she felt successful 01:04:45.591 --> 01:04:47.901 and that that was healing for her. 01:04:47.901 --> 01:04:49.071 It was healing for me. 01:04:49.131 --> 01:04:54.411 You know, any teacher who hears that and who doesn't get really turned on 01:04:54.411 --> 01:05:01.261 by that and say, wow, somebody who, somebody really wants to be here. 01:05:01.261 --> 01:05:03.741 This is the place they'd rather be than anywhere else. 01:05:04.851 --> 01:05:11.061 So, and this girl learned how to operate your off the track thoroughbreds. 01:05:11.361 --> 01:05:11.971 Mm-hmm. 01:05:12.051 --> 01:05:12.611 . Mm-hmm. 01:05:12.691 --> 01:05:13.171 . Mm-hmm. 01:05:15.651 --> 01:05:16.581 . That's not too shabby. 01:05:18.051 --> 01:05:18.351 Yeah. 01:05:19.221 --> 01:05:19.461 Yeah. 01:05:19.821 --> 01:05:24.921 Now this is you running a small survival writing school. 01:05:24.926 --> 01:05:31.341 Suddenly you're getting overwhelmed with people, with children with autism. 01:05:31.441 --> 01:05:32.001 Mm-hmm. 01:05:32.086 --> 01:05:34.041 , because you did well with this autistic guy. 01:05:34.161 --> 01:05:34.441 Mm-hmm. 01:05:34.521 --> 01:05:35.081 . Mm-hmm. 01:05:37.406 --> 01:05:42.966 . , I know that you, uh, have several methods that you use. 01:05:42.966 --> 01:05:44.256 I know that you use Horse Point Method. 01:05:44.256 --> 01:05:45.996 I know that you use Movement Method. 01:05:45.996 --> 01:05:50.606 I know that you train horses in hand with the Baz, old classical burop thing. 01:05:51.026 --> 01:05:58.826 What are your go-to methods and what are not your go-to methods? 01:05:59.133 --> 01:06:00.483 Basically, what is square peg? 01:06:01.353 --> 01:06:01.713 Yeah. 01:06:01.920 --> 01:06:04.260 You know, method is such a tricky word, right? 01:06:04.260 --> 01:06:06.210 Because it seems restrictive. 01:06:07.080 --> 01:06:12.330 I like to think of it, and I think you and I have had long conversations 01:06:12.335 --> 01:06:17.190 about this, that the thing that really excited me about Horse 01:06:17.190 --> 01:06:20.400 Boy was that it was a framework. 01:06:20.550 --> 01:06:22.440 I felt like it gave. 01:06:23.175 --> 01:06:26.655 A set of principles that I could hang flesh and muscles 01:06:26.655 --> 01:06:28.665 and clothes and jewelry off of. 01:06:29.415 --> 01:06:35.445 Um, and that's what I liked because, , you know, I'm just not good at methods. 01:06:35.535 --> 01:06:39.725 I'm not, because every horse, you know, if, if, if you don't 01:06:39.725 --> 01:06:43.055 like unpredictability probably shouldn't be in the horse business. 01:06:43.265 --> 01:06:47.015 you know, but for people with short attention spans like us, 01:06:47.615 --> 01:06:49.415 um, it works really well, right? 01:06:49.415 --> 01:06:50.225 We're diligence. 01:06:50.225 --> 01:06:54.695 We, we want to be adaptive, we want to, to roll with what's happening today. 01:06:55.205 --> 01:06:59.555 Um, and, and when you've got rigidity, right, that's gonna break. 01:06:59.975 --> 01:07:05.435 Um, and so having the flexibility of a framework, which 01:07:05.528 --> 01:07:09.548 one of those big portions of the framework, like the, the, 01:07:09.638 --> 01:07:12.248 the encompassing bit is joy. 01:07:12.878 --> 01:07:16.478 You know, certainly self-advocacy is our North star. 01:07:17.243 --> 01:07:21.203 , but what propels that is, is joy and fun. 01:07:21.263 --> 01:07:26.813 And if it's not fun, um, there's a million other things and therapies 01:07:26.813 --> 01:07:29.993 and activities that most of our families are participating 01:07:29.993 --> 01:07:32.303 in, , that aren't based in fun. 01:07:33.263 --> 01:07:33.503 Yeah. 01:07:33.563 --> 01:07:39.053 Um, and, and we know the brain science now that it pays off, it pays off. 01:07:39.383 --> 01:07:41.633 And like I said, if sitting around and shouting at people 01:07:41.633 --> 01:07:43.733 worked better, maybe I'd do it. 01:07:44.333 --> 01:07:47.183 But all things being equal, let's have fun. 01:07:47.873 --> 01:07:50.273 And, , so there's a lot of silliness around here. 01:07:50.333 --> 01:07:52.793 There's a lot of creativity and self-expression. 01:07:53.253 --> 01:07:56.823 there's a lot of costuming and dressing up around here. 01:07:57.373 --> 01:07:58.963 , there's a lot of music, you know. 01:07:59.023 --> 01:08:04.363 Um, and it's so great to, you know, the technology that we have now with 01:08:04.363 --> 01:08:08.993 Bluetooth speakers that we can put on a, on a, , On a saddle and clip to it. 01:08:09.323 --> 01:08:12.383 Uh, and if you can't do that, you know, um, we've got a 01:08:12.383 --> 01:08:13.913 horse that plays the ukulele. 01:08:14.003 --> 01:08:15.563 I don't know, have you seen those videos? 01:08:16.433 --> 01:08:18.443 Yeah, I have not seen those videos. 01:08:18.448 --> 01:08:20.003 Oh, I think I would like to see those videos. 01:08:20.063 --> 01:08:20.183 Yes. 01:08:20.188 --> 01:08:21.593 Yeah, you should see those videos. 01:08:21.593 --> 01:08:23.213 I mean, listeners would probably like to see those videos. 01:08:23.213 --> 01:08:23.993 Your horses playing uk. 01:08:24.623 --> 01:08:25.133 Anyone? 01:08:25.133 --> 01:08:25.193 Yeah. 01:08:25.943 --> 01:08:26.843 All in favor say aye. 01:08:26.843 --> 01:08:27.923 Yeah, that's a resounding aye. 01:08:28.223 --> 01:08:28.383 . Ok. 01:08:30.233 --> 01:08:31.043 He's got chops. 01:08:31.043 --> 01:08:31.343 Yeah. 01:08:31.423 --> 01:08:31.703 Ok. 01:08:32.173 --> 01:08:33.263 Yeah, he's got chops. 01:08:33.623 --> 01:08:38.093 Um, and so, you know, and then we start giggling around with whether or not we 01:08:38.093 --> 01:08:41.303 should, , you know, we've got horses that love to pick things up and shake them. 01:08:41.308 --> 01:08:43.253 So we we're, we've gotta start a band. 01:08:43.853 --> 01:08:45.503 Um, so we Yeah. 01:08:47.380 --> 01:08:52.660 But you say that you, uh, don't like methods, , but you also said, you 01:08:52.660 --> 01:08:54.130 know, the neuroscience to it now. 01:08:54.250 --> 01:08:54.740 Yeah. 01:08:54.740 --> 01:08:55.180 Yeah. 01:08:55.185 --> 01:09:00.820 Um, and I also see you diligently. 01:09:01.600 --> 01:09:06.880 Following the old master system of training horses with the lunch, 01:09:06.880 --> 01:09:10.690 with the in-hand work, and then the assisted in-hand work in the manner 01:09:10.690 --> 01:09:13.870 of the old masters, which clearly is getting great results with these 01:09:13.870 --> 01:09:16.780 horses, both from the horses' point of view and for the kids' point of view. 01:09:17.260 --> 01:09:22.870 So there seems to be, to me, an interesting mix there of freedom and 01:09:23.130 --> 01:09:29.030 pre-ex expression mixed with hard science, mixed with humbling yourself 01:09:29.035 --> 01:09:32.830 to an ancient tradition that works. 01:09:32.830 --> 01:09:37.240 And somehow in the midst of all those three apparently contradictory things, 01:09:38.290 --> 01:09:41.295 the square peg delivers up what 01:09:41.489 --> 01:09:42.389 sweetness. 01:09:43.589 --> 01:09:47.699 I know, but it's, it's what it comes down to, it's sweetness. 01:09:48.389 --> 01:09:52.259 Um, the horse feels good, the people are feeling good, the parents. 01:09:53.389 --> 01:09:58.379 , you know, a a as a parent, there's nothing sweeter than the sound of your 01:09:58.379 --> 01:10:00.329 child laughing and enjoying themselves. 01:10:00.839 --> 01:10:02.279 And what is the child learning? 01:10:02.279 --> 01:10:04.589 What are they learning while they're in this sweet state? 01:10:06.089 --> 01:10:07.229 Give me some examples. 01:10:09.659 --> 01:10:11.879 Well, we wanna focus on what they wanna learn. 01:10:12.119 --> 01:10:13.949 And a lot of it is self-expression. 01:10:14.489 --> 01:10:16.319 A lot of it is self-expression. 01:10:16.319 --> 01:10:23.189 And I think, you know what we hear, if you give the child the opportunity to 01:10:23.189 --> 01:10:27.839 share their interests, they're reinforcing things that they're struggling to learn. 01:10:28.251 --> 01:10:34.381 we had, uh, uh, during Covid, uh, and we've got a little video somewhere, , we 01:10:34.386 --> 01:10:39.241 had, we had one girl, dress herself up as a, , a bottle of hand sanitizer, 01:10:43.436 --> 01:10:49.846 And then, and then, uh, uh, uh, and then she painted the coronavirus 01:10:49.936 --> 01:10:52.966 molecule on, um, on a horse. 01:10:53.506 --> 01:10:56.836 And then she, uh, bathed him, right? 01:10:57.676 --> 01:11:01.726 And so that was her way of washing away the coronavirus 01:11:01.726 --> 01:11:03.736 and being part of the cure. 01:11:04.216 --> 01:11:07.036 And no longer, you know, part of being scared. 01:11:08.086 --> 01:11:09.946 Um, it's pretty out of the box. 01:11:09.951 --> 01:11:13.096 Pretty weird, , right up there with a horse playing ukulele. 01:11:13.996 --> 01:11:14.356 Okay. 01:11:14.716 --> 01:11:18.606 So, um, I, let's say I bring my child to you mm-hmm. 01:11:18.736 --> 01:11:22.006 , and I say, um, okay. 01:11:22.246 --> 01:11:24.796 It's clear that you can get communication going. 01:11:25.396 --> 01:11:26.656 , I have a child that doesn't wanna communicate. 01:11:26.776 --> 01:11:27.856 Now I wanna take it further. 01:11:28.336 --> 01:11:31.076 I'd like my child, child to, , get comfortable with maths. 01:11:31.081 --> 01:11:32.046 They don't seem to mm-hmm. 01:11:32.126 --> 01:11:32.446 math. 01:11:32.446 --> 01:11:33.487 What's your approach to that? 01:11:33.492 --> 01:11:34.076 What, what are you doing? 01:11:36.446 --> 01:11:38.936 Well, I mean, first we have to figure out what the math level 01:11:39.236 --> 01:11:41.126 of the, of the learner is. 01:11:41.486 --> 01:11:44.996 Um, and also remember, music is math. 01:11:45.416 --> 01:11:45.746 Right? 01:11:46.316 --> 01:11:46.586 Right. 01:11:46.591 --> 01:11:51.026 We can, we, we've got, we've got, we've got eight counts and you can 01:11:51.026 --> 01:11:56.276 factor that into, you know, four sets of two, two sets of four, eight ones, 01:11:56.456 --> 01:12:01.586 one, eight, you know, an infinite, uh, an unending numbers of zeros. 01:12:01.636 --> 01:12:03.256 And, and playing. 01:12:03.946 --> 01:12:05.551 playing with the rhythm of the horse. 01:12:05.681 --> 01:12:06.731 And, and music. 01:12:07.841 --> 01:12:08.951 That's one easy one. 01:12:08.951 --> 01:12:10.151 That's one of my favorite ones. 01:12:10.241 --> 01:12:16.661 And also reminding, um, reminding parents that listening to music is math, 01:12:17.111 --> 01:12:19.661 enjoying music is math, dance is math. 01:12:20.411 --> 01:12:26.141 Um, I think, do you remember, um, we were in Thailand and there was a, there 01:12:26.141 --> 01:12:31.421 was a boy playing guitar and his mother was so upset and he was, he was a, he 01:12:31.421 --> 01:12:36.521 was self-taught from YouTube videos and his mother was incensed that he wasn't 01:12:36.521 --> 01:12:42.521 learning math , you know, and helping him understand, oh my gosh, you know, this is 01:12:42.521 --> 01:12:45.551 all that, was, was, was helpful for her. 01:12:45.551 --> 01:12:52.631 So, So at some point, yes, there is the performative academics that you 01:12:52.631 --> 01:12:55.271 do to make a family feel happier. 01:12:55.661 --> 01:13:01.751 Um, but the stealthy academics are way more challenging and way more fun. 01:13:02.291 --> 01:13:06.851 And, um, and I would say when I, when it comes to math and math concepts, 01:13:07.271 --> 01:13:13.541 um, either, either music or, or the actual physics, you know, jumping off 01:13:13.541 --> 01:13:18.071 into the stream and building dams and red diverting water and thinking about 01:13:18.071 --> 01:13:21.041 how much pressure it's gonna take to make the water flow down the hill. 01:13:21.521 --> 01:13:26.411 Um, so you'll get the child off the horse doing things like this. 01:13:26.921 --> 01:13:27.101 Sure. 01:13:27.101 --> 01:13:32.051 Showing them the physics, then rebounding them, having them, uh, working the 01:13:32.051 --> 01:13:34.091 rhythm of the horse, counting them and putting the numbers together. 01:13:34.271 --> 01:13:37.061 Then they're with math, both on the horse, both off the horse 01:13:37.421 --> 01:13:38.651 in that natural environment. 01:13:38.681 --> 01:13:39.311 It's, it's, mm-hmm. 01:13:40.181 --> 01:13:43.451 , would that be a typical Yeah, very typical. 01:13:43.691 --> 01:13:44.091 Very typical. 01:13:44.241 --> 01:13:46.301 I think I would maybe want to send my child to that. 01:13:46.946 --> 01:13:50.786 Um, for, for, for, for a lot of reading books on horses too, you know. 01:13:50.791 --> 01:13:51.136 Okay. 01:13:51.156 --> 01:13:55.316 And, and talking about books that we're reading, you know, normalizing 01:13:55.526 --> 01:14:00.506 the fact that people read and enjoy books can be very educational. 01:14:00.566 --> 01:14:04.046 You know, when a book is otherwise just this torturous thing that people 01:14:04.046 --> 01:14:07.376 make you do instead, all of a sudden you're around a bunch of people and 01:14:07.376 --> 01:14:09.146 they're all excited to talk about books. 01:14:09.146 --> 01:14:09.686 Well, guess what? 01:14:09.686 --> 01:14:13.286 That child wants to read a book so he can bring it back next week and 01:14:13.286 --> 01:14:14.906 participate in that conversation. 01:14:15.386 --> 01:14:17.636 You talked about getting the kid off the horse. 01:14:17.641 --> 01:14:22.166 Would you say that that is as important when you are doing equine assisted stuff? 01:14:22.736 --> 01:14:23.966 Percent at the work with the horse? 01:14:24.236 --> 01:14:24.536 Yeah. 01:14:24.986 --> 01:14:33.716 Anytime you get attached to how much time or what percentage of the time 01:14:33.716 --> 01:14:38.006 the person spends on the horse, um, you've already, you've already lost. 01:14:38.516 --> 01:14:43.151 Not that, it's, not that it's a a, a zero sum game, but, um, you know, because 01:14:43.151 --> 01:14:47.111 then you're, you're forcing someone on a horse and, you know, even the, the square 01:14:47.116 --> 01:14:50.081 peg name is about not forcing a fit. 01:14:50.171 --> 01:14:50.471 Right. 01:14:50.471 --> 01:14:55.271 Because if you, if you force a square peg into a round hole, you're, you're 01:14:55.276 --> 01:14:59.231 forcing that fit and you're creating, and then you're not only creating 01:14:59.561 --> 01:15:02.321 resistance, but you're destroying the peg and possibly the hole. 01:15:03.101 --> 01:15:05.391 So I'm a child, it's just a mess I get mm-hmm. 01:15:05.481 --> 01:15:07.111 , uh, brought to your place. 01:15:07.111 --> 01:15:07.711 Mm-hmm. 01:15:07.791 --> 01:15:09.821 parents say, I want to try the sequin therapy thing. 01:15:10.421 --> 01:15:10.511 Mm-hmm. 01:15:11.081 --> 01:15:13.961 , it's clear that I have want nothing to do with a horse. 01:15:14.281 --> 01:15:14.631 Mm. 01:15:15.131 --> 01:15:15.671 What are you gonna do? 01:15:17.471 --> 01:15:23.051 We are, are going to, um, make sure that we have a, a, a volunteer, 01:15:23.471 --> 01:15:27.851 um, who is close enough with the horse, but then the instructor, the 01:15:27.856 --> 01:15:29.801 employee, is going to figure out. 01:15:30.581 --> 01:15:36.011 What you like, what you are interested in, and we're going to be really, really, 01:15:36.011 --> 01:15:42.551 really sensitive to how close we can bring and involve the horse in that activity. 01:15:42.761 --> 01:15:44.381 And that may take weeks. 01:15:45.101 --> 01:15:49.601 Um, and then somebody else is going to be talking to the parent and explaining 01:15:49.631 --> 01:15:54.011 to them what's going on so that they feel involved in it and they don't 01:15:54.011 --> 01:15:56.231 feel like they're wasting their time. 01:15:56.981 --> 01:16:01.541 Or helping that parent just go for a walk and, and spend some time alone or 01:16:01.541 --> 01:16:03.521 go with a friend to the coffee shop. 01:16:04.451 --> 01:16:07.781 Um, so you will find, you will find out the child's interests, follow those 01:16:07.781 --> 01:16:09.791 interests, whether they're horse or not. 01:16:10.391 --> 01:16:10.571 Mm-hmm. 01:16:10.761 --> 01:16:13.121 , have the horse sort of available mm-hmm. 01:16:13.201 --> 01:16:13.441 mm-hmm. 01:16:13.521 --> 01:16:15.791 to let the child grow into Yeah. 01:16:16.061 --> 01:16:22.241 And naturally find either funny or, or very natural ways to involve 01:16:22.246 --> 01:16:23.771 the horse in the conversation. 01:16:24.351 --> 01:16:29.651 . Um, and a lot of times, and I think the, the rescue aspect of the horses plays 01:16:29.781 --> 01:16:35.711 into that because you'll find a softness and a, and a, and a and a care that 01:16:35.711 --> 01:16:37.751 most people will have for an animal. 01:16:38.171 --> 01:16:40.451 Um, and this, this horse needs help. 01:16:40.751 --> 01:16:44.681 And, you know, he's a recovering ukulele addict and, um, 01:16:46.298 --> 01:16:49.268 So it can be silly, it can be ridiculous. 01:16:49.328 --> 01:16:54.188 Um, but laughter's a beautiful way to, to ipel learning. 01:16:56.588 --> 01:17:04.088 When, um, the client, let's say, cuz they could be a child, 01:17:04.088 --> 01:17:04.958 they could be a young adult. 01:17:05.068 --> 01:17:05.678 Mm-hmm. 01:17:06.428 --> 01:17:11.168 , um, reaches a certain level of engagement with the horse. 01:17:11.528 --> 01:17:12.788 You've built this relationship. 01:17:13.148 --> 01:17:14.978 Do you involve them as trainer? 01:17:15.853 --> 01:17:16.598 absolutely. 01:17:16.898 --> 01:17:17.468 Tell me how you do that. 01:17:17.688 --> 01:17:20.048 And it's, I, well, it's empowering, right? 01:17:20.048 --> 01:17:22.838 I'm not just using this horse as a beast of burden. 01:17:22.838 --> 01:17:25.358 I'm helping this horse feel better in his body. 01:17:25.358 --> 01:17:27.518 I'm helping this horse learn new things. 01:17:27.908 --> 01:17:32.918 Um, we also, we do a lot of trick training around here and liberty too, which can 01:17:32.923 --> 01:17:37.358 be really, really, really empowering for somebody who's constantly being told 01:17:37.358 --> 01:17:43.628 what to do, to be put in the position to get 1100 pounds of x-ray horse to 01:17:43.868 --> 01:17:48.368 do something silly, like step up on a pedestal or bow or smile or lay down. 01:17:48.788 --> 01:17:53.228 Um, we've got one who loves to lay down now, and so we can get people 01:17:53.228 --> 01:17:54.788 to sit on him and then get back up. 01:17:54.788 --> 01:17:57.668 And it's a really thrilling, big feeling. 01:17:57.938 --> 01:17:58.178 Mm-hmm. 01:17:58.328 --> 01:18:02.978 Um, so, you know, also taking what the horse's natural interest is too. 01:18:03.598 --> 01:18:06.088 , again, this was a horse that when he was frustrated, would 01:18:06.093 --> 01:18:07.198 throw himself on the ground. 01:18:07.198 --> 01:18:10.978 That's a problem in training him for what we're doing, but we 01:18:10.978 --> 01:18:12.018 turned it into something sweet. 01:18:12.913 --> 01:18:17.278 and, uh, and now he'll lay down on Q and you can get on 01:18:17.278 --> 01:18:19.048 him and he'll stand back up. 01:18:19.978 --> 01:18:26.818 Um, so again, you know, this just suits my own a d d Dilatant type 01:18:26.818 --> 01:18:31.138 brain, um, to try and just roll with whatever, whatever being presented. 01:18:31.358 --> 01:18:34.918 Do you find that a lot of your clients actually make quite good horse trainers? 01:18:35.368 --> 01:18:36.058 Mm, I do. 01:18:36.418 --> 01:18:36.808 I do. 01:18:37.288 --> 01:18:37.618 I do. 01:18:37.888 --> 01:18:38.588 Why do you think cutting? 01:18:38.588 --> 01:18:46.788 Cause they're, you know, one of the, part of autism is a brutal honesty, right? 01:18:46.788 --> 01:18:47.228 Mm-hmm. 01:18:47.308 --> 01:18:50.128 and horses love honesty, and they love consistency. 01:18:50.218 --> 01:18:55.858 They're so much happier with that than, um, than with other people 01:18:55.858 --> 01:18:59.698 who have, you know, fuzzy, weird rules that change all the time. 01:19:00.238 --> 01:19:02.578 , you know, somebody who's, who's very clear. 01:19:03.353 --> 01:19:08.818 . Um, and no, you don't get the treat or whatever until you do x and holds 01:19:08.818 --> 01:19:11.458 boundaries, um, is refreshing to a horse. 01:19:11.998 --> 01:19:14.128 , and also just, just the joy. 01:19:14.728 --> 01:19:21.328 Um, you know, it feels good when the horse does these groovy fun things and, 01:19:21.688 --> 01:19:25.528 and we can play around and say, look, you know, this is a bullfighting move 01:19:25.528 --> 01:19:29.278 and this is how a bullfighting horse feels, and now you feel him dancing. 01:19:29.998 --> 01:19:35.128 Um, and, and then you'll find that, that, you know, the, the people 01:19:35.128 --> 01:19:37.108 that we serve start asking for it. 01:19:37.618 --> 01:19:39.358 Well, he feels a little sticky today. 01:19:39.358 --> 01:19:41.128 Can we do the bullfighting stuff? 01:19:42.238 --> 01:19:46.618 You know, nobody wants to kick a horse around in circles, and we all have horses 01:19:46.623 --> 01:19:48.448 that some days just don't wanna do it. 01:19:48.898 --> 01:19:53.428 So when he gets in that flowy feel, it feels good. 01:19:53.998 --> 01:19:55.048 Yeah, feels good. 01:19:56.698 --> 01:19:56.968 Yeah. 01:19:56.968 --> 01:19:58.018 There's no joy in just. 01:19:58.678 --> 01:20:00.073 brutalizing horse and the ribcage. 01:20:00.332 --> 01:20:09.332 Given that the horse world can be a pretty rough world, um, obviously the 01:20:09.332 --> 01:20:15.062 racetrack, obviously the sport world, but also, you know, the riding teacher world, 01:20:15.062 --> 01:20:16.562 as you say, it comes from the military. 01:20:16.622 --> 01:20:21.482 So shouting at people and so on, um, unless they go through an evolution like 01:20:21.482 --> 01:20:26.882 yours, um, within the therapy world and the equine assisted world, what would 01:20:26.882 --> 01:20:28.892 you, what changes would you like to see? 01:20:29.402 --> 01:20:30.332 What would you like to see more of? 01:20:31.119 --> 01:20:34.179 Have you seen the study that just came out this week out of Cornell 01:20:34.329 --> 01:20:40.599 about, um, uh, they've put e e g, um, little helmets on horses? 01:20:41.829 --> 01:20:42.639 No, I have not. 01:20:42.644 --> 01:20:43.269 Tell me about it. 01:20:43.269 --> 01:20:44.079 Oh, I will. 01:20:44.079 --> 01:20:46.589 It's um, I made some notes here. 01:20:47.245 --> 01:20:51.145 I'll just read you these two sentences because cuz they're significant. 01:20:51.685 --> 01:20:56.305 Um, in answering the question, so it says, horses and stables showed an average of 01:20:56.305 --> 01:21:01.765 two and a half times more right hemisphere gamma waves than those living in open 01:21:01.765 --> 01:21:04.435 fields with other horses in people. 01:21:04.435 --> 01:21:08.215 Such waves are often a sign of anxiety, distraction, and depression. 01:21:08.605 --> 01:21:12.775 The horses that spent most of their time out in the open fields showed 01:21:12.775 --> 01:21:17.065 twice as many left hemisphere theta waves on average, which is generally 01:21:17.065 --> 01:21:18.805 a sign of calm and attentive mind. 01:21:20.395 --> 01:21:25.825 Um, I think paying attention to the environment and the social needs that 01:21:25.825 --> 01:21:32.305 our horses have, um, before delving into to doing, making sure that the horse's 01:21:32.305 --> 01:21:39.385 social and exercise needs are attended to before expecting them to participate 01:21:40.135 --> 01:21:44.215 in a healing modality is what I'd like to see more of in the equine therapy world. 01:21:45.390 --> 01:21:48.760 I guess that's logical if the, if the horse is supposed 01:21:48.760 --> 01:21:52.570 to, uh, transfer wellbeing. 01:21:53.200 --> 01:21:53.440 Yeah. 01:21:53.800 --> 01:21:54.100 Yeah. 01:21:54.460 --> 01:21:56.950 If the horse is not in wellbeing Yeah. 01:21:57.250 --> 01:21:58.390 How are they going to do that? 01:21:59.230 --> 01:22:04.450 Well, and you know, you introduced me to, um, uh, Nina at Coleman Fry, 01:22:04.480 --> 01:22:08.530 who's been doing so much of the studies on the permission-based horsemanship 01:22:08.530 --> 01:22:10.630 in the, in the equine guided field. 01:22:11.110 --> 01:22:14.590 And, um, you know, at the time when she started that, she, I 01:22:14.590 --> 01:22:15.730 think she took a lot of heat. 01:22:16.330 --> 01:22:23.380 And it's nice to see, um, people recognizing that if you, if you, if 01:22:23.380 --> 01:22:28.120 you're not attending to the horses' social and physical needs, um, it's just plain 01:22:28.120 --> 01:22:32.340 dangerous to ask him, to, to interact with, with people who need healing. 01:22:32.600 --> 01:22:33.210 Mm-hmm. 01:22:33.560 --> 01:22:34.230 , I agree. 01:22:34.230 --> 01:22:37.230 You know, we were talking about brain science earlier too, for, for those, 01:22:37.440 --> 01:22:41.490 um, listeners who don't know when a horse goes in soft collection, 01:22:42.385 --> 01:22:43.725 and it rocks the rider's hips. 01:22:44.025 --> 01:22:50.535 It fills the rider with a, uh, feel good hormone called oxytocin, which also 01:22:50.535 --> 01:22:54.105 happens to be the communication hormone. 01:22:54.975 --> 01:22:58.665 So if you have someone who's in a high level of anxiety, you're 01:22:58.665 --> 01:23:01.575 filling them with a feel good hormone and a hormone that wants them to, 01:23:01.635 --> 01:23:02.775 makes them want to communicate. 01:23:03.375 --> 01:23:08.565 And then when they move and problem solve, which is the balancing, um, a protein 01:23:09.405 --> 01:23:15.195 is produced in the brain called bdnf, brain derived neurotrophic factor, which 01:23:16.275 --> 01:23:19.545 over time working with neuroscientists, we've, we've obviously found out, 01:23:19.605 --> 01:23:26.685 you know, is, can be transferred for neuroplasticity, um, in people. 01:23:27.525 --> 01:23:32.895 do you find that this same process works for the horse? 01:23:33.045 --> 01:23:35.425 Do you feel that the horse is getting oxytocin as well? 01:23:36.270 --> 01:23:38.850 When you're working him in the this way, do you feel the horse 01:23:38.850 --> 01:23:40.230 is getting B D N F as well? 01:23:40.530 --> 01:23:47.640 And if so, how is that, how is that, uh, making life better both for 01:23:47.640 --> 01:23:51.780 that horse and for whatever client is interacting with that horse? 01:23:53.610 --> 01:24:01.780 The studies aren't that far along, with the horses, but it would certainly seem 01:24:02.260 --> 01:24:06.040 that, uh, that the horses are regulated. 01:24:06.670 --> 01:24:12.190 Um, you know, what do we look for in a horse if we're, if we're 01:24:12.190 --> 01:24:14.410 judging in a hunter course, right? 01:24:14.890 --> 01:24:16.570 We're looking for this horse that's. 01:24:17.290 --> 01:24:22.420 Soft over his back, that where his, his neck and his shoulders meet. 01:24:22.860 --> 01:24:27.300 he, he doesn't have a lot of tension that his legs swing evenly. 01:24:27.750 --> 01:24:34.040 Um, that he, he has a soft gaze, that his ears are even and pointed forward. 01:24:35.090 --> 01:24:39.370 All of those things indicate, , you know, a horse that, that is, is 01:24:39.370 --> 01:24:46.480 regulated and whether or not, um, that translates as, as oxytocin. 01:24:46.960 --> 01:24:50.760 we don't know yet, but we certainly see on the outside of the horse, a horse 01:24:50.760 --> 01:24:53.040 that is regulated and feeling good. 01:24:53.520 --> 01:24:57.615 Um, We can translate that into our own bodies, and we certainly feel it. 01:24:57.765 --> 01:25:01.995 You know, any rider, any rider knows the difference between a horse that is 01:25:02.505 --> 01:25:06.045 stressed and uneven as opposed to a horse. 01:25:06.045 --> 01:25:09.405 That's, that's, you know, even just going down the trail, right? 01:25:09.405 --> 01:25:14.145 That, that head bobbing, swinging, let's go somewhere, curiosity 01:25:14.145 --> 01:25:17.085 as opposed to the Jesus Christ, we gotta go back to the barn. 01:25:17.085 --> 01:25:17.925 This is awful. 01:25:18.315 --> 01:25:18.705 You know? 01:25:19.035 --> 01:25:21.225 Um, yeah. 01:25:21.375 --> 01:25:23.505 You don't, you don't have to be a horseman to feel that. 01:25:23.745 --> 01:25:25.605 You just have to be, have a heartbeat. 01:25:26.175 --> 01:25:27.945 What about, what about neuroplasticity? 01:25:28.725 --> 01:25:30.645 Um, brain change, positive brain change. 01:25:30.735 --> 01:25:30.825 Mm-hmm. 01:25:31.425 --> 01:25:34.515 , what positive brain change do you, do you, would you see, you see, 01:25:34.515 --> 01:25:35.865 would you say, see this in the horse? 01:25:36.765 --> 01:25:37.455 Absolutely. 01:25:37.605 --> 01:25:44.295 And, and again, you know, you, what I've seen with the in-hand work when, 01:25:44.325 --> 01:25:50.555 when it's done skillfully, um, is, is that, the uptake of information. 01:25:51.220 --> 01:25:51.935 so quick. 01:25:52.205 --> 01:25:58.385 Uh, we are having horses learn faster now that we're five or six 01:25:58.385 --> 01:26:02.765 years into using the Lenzo method than I've ever, ever imagined. 01:26:02.975 --> 01:26:08.195 Um, you know, the, the, the group we have between the two farms, we have 26 01:26:08.200 --> 01:26:14.495 horses right now, never ever had as good a group of horses as we have right now. 01:26:14.555 --> 01:26:19.745 And these are, you know, these are 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 year old thoroughbreds and, 01:26:19.745 --> 01:26:23.915 you know, really grouchy 21 year old thoroughbreds too, with a lot of injuries. 01:26:24.005 --> 01:26:28.645 Um, and they're, they're coming up and learning faster and faster and faster. 01:26:28.835 --> 01:26:31.025 It, it just, it, it, it blows me away. 01:26:31.455 --> 01:26:36.975 So, you know, so the proof is in the pudding at the end of the day. 01:26:37.185 --> 01:26:42.195 Um, and so it, it, it, you can draw a pretty straight line in between. 01:26:43.075 --> 01:26:48.110 doing good in hand and lunging work, and a horse, a horse's learning 01:26:48.115 --> 01:26:54.470 curve, and neuroplasticity and being able to tolerate, um, more stressful 01:26:54.475 --> 01:26:59.720 situations before, you know, before just having a refusal or whatever that is. 01:27:00.500 --> 01:27:04.550 It's what, it's what I see and I, I, I'm pretty confident 01:27:04.550 --> 01:27:05.840 that the science will play out. 01:27:06.200 --> 01:27:09.500 And so it's really nice that they're, you know, again, that's why I loved 01:27:09.500 --> 01:27:14.930 this study from, from Cornell is that they're, they're finally, um, they're 01:27:14.935 --> 01:27:17.060 measuring brainwaves on, on horses. 01:27:17.060 --> 01:27:22.640 They're regulated and it, you know, uh, we all know that an anxious, 01:27:23.060 --> 01:27:27.140 distracted, and depressed mind doesn't pick up or retain information that well. 01:27:27.290 --> 01:27:31.490 And there used to be an old cowboy saying that says, you know, you can, you can 01:27:31.490 --> 01:27:35.300 whoop a horse into understanding, but you're gonna have to do it again tomorrow. 01:27:35.370 --> 01:27:35.980 Mm-hmm. 01:27:36.280 --> 01:27:36.840 , right. 01:27:37.640 --> 01:27:40.445 . And um, that's a very rough way of saying it. 01:27:40.535 --> 01:27:45.575 Um, but, you know, but, but I came from that rough school of, of 01:27:45.635 --> 01:27:49.745 horsemanship and we did, and you had to do it over and over and over and 01:27:49.745 --> 01:27:51.395 over again until that was an accident. 01:27:51.395 --> 01:27:51.875 Yeah. 01:27:51.935 --> 01:27:53.105 Until there was an accident. 01:27:53.165 --> 01:27:53.495 Yeah. 01:27:53.615 --> 01:27:54.965 Or until the horse just gave up. 01:27:55.295 --> 01:27:55.505 Yeah. 01:27:55.545 --> 01:27:56.035 Yeah. 01:27:56.040 --> 01:27:58.745 And we thought I was training, we thought I was trading. 01:27:58.745 --> 01:27:59.735 Well, we were told to do it. 01:27:59.735 --> 01:27:59.855 Yeah. 01:27:59.855 --> 01:28:01.895 We were, we were, we were told to do it that hard school. 01:28:01.955 --> 01:28:02.195 Yeah. 01:28:02.195 --> 01:28:02.855 We were told to do it. 01:28:02.945 --> 01:28:03.155 Yeah. 01:28:03.665 --> 01:28:07.115 But I think we all observed that it didn't really work. 01:28:07.505 --> 01:28:08.465 didn't really work. 01:28:09.575 --> 01:28:12.095 . If it did, we wouldn't be looking for other things. 01:28:12.305 --> 01:28:13.955 But you mentioned Lenzer method. 01:28:14.005 --> 01:28:18.515 , I, , I will put a, for those of you who are listening who listen to that, 01:28:18.785 --> 01:28:22.845 I'll put a, a web link at the end of this for that, for the ER family, and 01:28:22.845 --> 01:28:27.285 the, this classical work that they do in hand, um, I'll make sure that that's 01:28:27.285 --> 01:28:28.995 there in the links at the end of this. 01:28:29.025 --> 01:28:35.055 Um, so we've gone from your backyard. 01:28:36.765 --> 01:28:43.005 off the track thoroughbred thing to now here you are, you are receiving 01:28:43.095 --> 01:28:45.825 regular grants from the Off the Track Thoroughbred Association. 01:28:45.830 --> 01:28:48.285 You are receiving awards from them. 01:28:48.345 --> 01:28:53.115 You are, a registered health provider now with San Mateo County, is that correct? 01:28:53.265 --> 01:28:53.266 . Mm-hmm. 01:28:53.435 --> 01:28:55.205 Talk to me about, about that for mental health. 01:28:55.565 --> 01:28:56.735 How, how has that played out? 01:28:58.265 --> 01:29:03.165 , so, , San Mateo County Mental Health has engaged us with a contract to 01:29:03.195 --> 01:29:07.695 provide, um, equine assisted mental health services, uh, for the county. 01:29:08.115 --> 01:29:14.955 So what we did, , was we did a series of retreats for the mental health providers 01:29:14.955 --> 01:29:20.055 where we actually brought them out for a full day long sensory based, , day 01:29:20.445 --> 01:29:22.755 of helping them build resilient skills. 01:29:22.755 --> 01:29:27.835 And at the end of the day, um, we did, , what, what in horse boy work 01:29:27.835 --> 01:29:31.765 we called sensory work, which was putting them on the horses body to 01:29:31.765 --> 01:29:35.485 body in different positions that of course the children have shown us. 01:29:35.835 --> 01:29:40.725 , and getting them a feeling of being supported and up on the horses in these, 01:29:40.730 --> 01:29:42.745 in these very vulnerable positions. 01:29:43.045 --> 01:29:49.915 , and for a lot of people, a significant amount, it's a really emotional experience 01:29:49.975 --> 01:29:54.325 and people who have been around horses our whole lives and grew up around 01:29:54.325 --> 01:29:59.305 horses, um, it doesn't feel that special to us because that's how we spent 01:29:59.455 --> 01:30:03.265 time on our ponies, you know, laying backwards on our pony out in the field. 01:30:03.565 --> 01:30:06.625 And if we rolled off, you know, you rolled into the grass and you giggled 01:30:06.625 --> 01:30:10.615 and you laughed and you dropped your book, or, um, you know, we would sit 01:30:10.615 --> 01:30:14.185 two and three on a horse and, you know, somebody's up on his neck and somebody's. 01:30:15.455 --> 01:30:21.815 . but for people who aren't around horses, this is, this is life changing. 01:30:22.115 --> 01:30:22.205 Mm-hmm. 01:30:22.595 --> 01:30:28.285 . Um, and so to give them that experience and then, we we set it up with 01:30:28.290 --> 01:30:32.275 the therapist where they have the opportunity to either come with their 01:30:32.275 --> 01:30:36.775 client or whether they send the client here and we're supporting the, the 01:30:36.775 --> 01:30:38.815 therapeutic goals, for that person. 01:30:39.325 --> 01:30:45.505 , and , we ended up doing a lot of intense services for a youth program 01:30:45.985 --> 01:30:51.325 that's kind of a quasi, um, it's kind of the space between foster placement 01:30:51.355 --> 01:30:53.515 and juvenile detention facility. 01:30:53.785 --> 01:30:58.940 These are kids that kind of are in that space in between and, . , it's 01:30:58.940 --> 01:31:04.190 a residential program and, uh, and we are seeing those kids come out, 01:31:04.490 --> 01:31:08.540 um, two and three times a week, and they're now volunteering with us too. 01:31:08.960 --> 01:31:14.060 And they have been really, really, really good in working with our autism families. 01:31:14.600 --> 01:31:17.330 Um, so it's been a really nice integration. 01:31:18.500 --> 01:31:23.780 we're also, working on piloting a program for the San Mateo County, , department 01:31:23.785 --> 01:31:29.750 of Education to do resilience workshops, including the somatic stuff, um, for, 01:31:29.810 --> 01:31:31.640 for teachers experiencing burnout. 01:31:32.690 --> 01:31:34.640 So pretty exciting stuff. 01:31:35.600 --> 01:31:39.620 So this is mental health beyond autism, and this is mental health 01:31:40.160 --> 01:31:44.600 of mental health care providers in a weird way, like in hand work for 01:31:44.600 --> 01:31:49.120 the horse in hand, in brain work for the, for the, for the, for the car. 01:31:50.750 --> 01:31:53.720 You, how do you deal with burnout, Joel? 01:31:53.720 --> 01:31:56.420 I mean, you were a, a stressed out single mom. 01:31:56.720 --> 01:31:59.110 You were a teenage, stressed out single mom, galloping resources 01:31:59.110 --> 01:32:00.380 on the track, risking your life. 01:32:00.380 --> 01:32:03.440 You had to start a whole organization from scratch. 01:32:03.710 --> 01:32:08.660 You have built it now to one of the biggest, um, you know, 01:32:08.660 --> 01:32:12.200 equine uh, facilities in, in, certainly in California, and you're 01:32:12.230 --> 01:32:13.520 right there in Silicon Valley. 01:32:13.760 --> 01:32:16.790 You've got two locations now. 01:32:16.850 --> 01:32:20.810 Um, I know that there's another rather cool location coming up, 01:32:20.815 --> 01:32:21.620 which I hope you'll tell us, right? 01:32:21.830 --> 01:32:28.250 How I've seen you, I, I, I know the intensity of this work and 01:32:28.340 --> 01:32:29.390 everything that goes into it. 01:32:29.390 --> 01:32:32.030 The horse training, not to mention the fundraising, not to mention the money. 01:32:32.810 --> 01:32:35.030 How do you yourself deal with burnout? 01:32:35.180 --> 01:32:38.810 What's your, what's your advice? 01:32:39.740 --> 01:32:39.830 Mm-hmm. 01:32:40.280 --> 01:32:41.690 for the people in this field? 01:32:42.210 --> 01:32:45.090 Ray Burnout, I think, 01:32:45.400 --> 01:32:51.335 , doing something creative outside of, of whether it's, you 01:32:51.335 --> 01:32:52.655 know, horses still turn me on. 01:32:52.655 --> 01:32:54.275 I'm so lucky that way. 01:32:54.365 --> 01:32:56.255 But, you know, I have times where I need a break. 01:32:56.825 --> 01:33:02.665 , and, , , but, uh, but writing, even journaling is a creative 01:33:03.155 --> 01:33:05.135 endeavor that, , that helps. 01:33:05.235 --> 01:33:05.715 , cooking. 01:33:05.925 --> 01:33:06.705 I love cooking. 01:33:06.765 --> 01:33:09.045 It's a creative challenge. 01:33:09.095 --> 01:33:13.495 , , and I've gotten quite into cold water, sea swimming here, , which I 01:33:13.495 --> 01:33:15.805 really, really, really, really enjoy. 01:33:16.225 --> 01:33:25.215 Um, but I'm so lucky to do what I love doing and,, and I have a pretty 01:33:25.215 --> 01:33:26.776 strong meditation practice too. 01:33:28.875 --> 01:33:30.255 Talk to me about the creative writing. 01:33:32.745 --> 01:33:35.295 Well, I finally finished a novel. 01:33:35.475 --> 01:33:42.275 I've got, um, I've got a, , a screenplay sketched out that just needs all of 01:33:42.275 --> 01:33:44.285 the bells and whistles hung on it. 01:33:44.345 --> 01:33:48.635 And that's a, that's a, that's a, a creative form that I never expected that 01:33:48.635 --> 01:33:51.305 I was gonna, and it, and it just came. 01:33:51.635 --> 01:33:52.595 So it's kind of fun. 01:33:52.595 --> 01:33:54.575 And if it turns into nothing, who cares? 01:33:54.575 --> 01:33:56.255 I'm, I'm enjoying the process. 01:33:56.825 --> 01:34:01.135 , and, , and I'm working on a, on a book that is the square peg 01:34:01.140 --> 01:34:05.695 story that Trafalgar Square has given me a handshake deal for. 01:34:05.695 --> 01:34:08.005 That said that they would love first option on that. 01:34:08.095 --> 01:34:12.520 And , and I'm about 60,000 words in, so I've got a pretty 01:34:12.520 --> 01:34:14.620 good go at a first draft. 01:34:15.250 --> 01:34:17.740 , yeah, I dunno where you find the time. 01:34:19.285 --> 01:34:20.365 Tell us about the novel. 01:34:20.365 --> 01:34:21.085 What's it about? 01:34:21.235 --> 01:34:21.865 Can we buy it? 01:34:21.925 --> 01:34:22.555 Can we read it? 01:34:22.735 --> 01:34:23.665 Sure, sure. 01:34:23.715 --> 01:34:28.015 You can buy it as a, , a Kindle at a dam fine hand.com. 01:34:28.345 --> 01:34:29.185 Is that the name of the book? 01:34:29.240 --> 01:34:31.310 , that is the name of the book, A dam Fine hand. 01:34:31.830 --> 01:34:33.775 , what's a That's great name. 01:34:33.775 --> 01:34:34.320 It's, , fun title. 01:34:35.300 --> 01:34:36.080 It is a fun title. 01:34:36.346 --> 01:34:36.796 , what's the story? 01:34:36.796 --> 01:34:37.366 What's it about? 01:34:37.876 --> 01:34:42.396 The story is, uh, it is, it's a, a fictional telling, of, 01:34:42.426 --> 01:34:46.026 uh, it's, it's really, it's the girl and horse story, right? 01:34:46.106 --> 01:34:48.576 It's, which has been told over and over again. 01:34:48.576 --> 01:34:54.546 But, um, it's started as a short story where I was really fascinated. 01:34:55.386 --> 01:34:57.801 by thinking about black beauty as a story. 01:34:57.801 --> 01:35:01.461 Black Beauty was the first time anybody told a story from 01:35:01.461 --> 01:35:02.631 the animal's point of view. 01:35:03.051 --> 01:35:07.851 And Black Beauty launched the movement that created the, the S P C A. 01:35:08.211 --> 01:35:08.451 Mm-hmm. 01:35:08.481 --> 01:35:10.791 So a story really can change the world. 01:35:11.031 --> 01:35:16.401 And that story did, and I thought just as a creative exercise, I wanted 01:35:16.406 --> 01:35:20.781 to see what would happen if I got in the mind of a horse and took him 01:35:20.781 --> 01:35:26.501 through the journey of going from the racetrack to the Slaughter pipeline. 01:35:26.931 --> 01:35:27.321 Hmm. 01:35:27.591 --> 01:35:32.751 And, um, what a lot of people don't understand is, uh, I, I very much 01:35:32.751 --> 01:35:37.671 appreciate the, the, the efforts of the Humane Society, but what Humane Society 01:35:37.761 --> 01:35:42.881 did, , about 10 years ago, was that they outlawed slaughter in the United States. 01:35:43.916 --> 01:35:45.941 , which sounds like a, a real win. 01:35:46.061 --> 01:35:50.201 What it did was that it forced the slaughter to go across the border 01:35:50.201 --> 01:35:55.271 to Mexico and Canada, and the transport of animals across those 01:35:55.271 --> 01:35:59.561 borders is unregulated and the slaughter houses are unregulated. 01:35:59.566 --> 01:36:05.111 And it unfortunately created a pipeline of suffering, but is spectacular. 01:36:05.541 --> 01:36:09.861 , so, you know, if you're signing a petition, read the whole petition. 01:36:10.211 --> 01:36:14.021 , not that I'm advocating that we need slaughterhouses or that we need to 01:36:14.021 --> 01:36:20.211 slaughter horses, um, but you know, if we're, if we're euthanizing horses, 01:36:20.381 --> 01:36:24.993 which any horseman has to do, We just, we have to think about the 01:36:24.993 --> 01:36:28.053 compassionate way to do it rather than kicking the can down the road. 01:36:28.473 --> 01:36:32.433 And I wanted to tell that story and I thought that telling that story from 01:36:32.438 --> 01:36:35.943 the horse's point of view was the only really effective way to do it. 01:36:35.943 --> 01:36:40.143 So a damn fine hand started as a short story of that horse 01:36:40.563 --> 01:36:42.073 going through that experience. 01:36:42.463 --> 01:36:46.453 , and I named the horse via Condiss, which is go with God. 01:36:46.723 --> 01:36:50.203 And I realized that this horse was the best Buddhist that I'd ever met. 01:36:50.568 --> 01:36:54.253 that alone created in my life, that he truly lived in the 01:36:54.253 --> 01:36:55.783 moment, in the here and now. 01:36:55.813 --> 01:36:57.943 And he lived with true forgiveness. 01:36:58.393 --> 01:37:00.223 , and the story grew from there. 01:37:00.283 --> 01:37:06.043 Grew from characters in that story, um, to the people in his life who 01:37:06.443 --> 01:37:07.633 surrounded him and what their stories. 01:37:09.253 --> 01:37:11.563 and we can, we can, how do we order this book? 01:37:11.563 --> 01:37:12.433 How can we get this book? 01:37:12.973 --> 01:37:18.373 You can go to a damn fine hand.com and purchase a Kindle version of the 01:37:18.373 --> 01:37:19.813 book if you'd like to download it. 01:37:19.873 --> 01:37:26.443 Or you can contact, um, oh my gosh, I've forgotten the name of the 01:37:26.443 --> 01:37:31.063 bookstore here in town, because that's where my mind is right now. 01:37:31.213 --> 01:37:33.733 Give me a minute and I'll think of it, or I'll send it to you and we 01:37:33.733 --> 01:37:36.703 can put it in, send us, we'll put it in the links, but@downtimehand.com. 01:37:36.703 --> 01:37:37.033 I think. 01:37:37.033 --> 01:37:39.403 We'll, we'll help, we'll put that, we'll put that there too. 01:37:39.613 --> 01:37:39.823 Yeah. 01:37:40.153 --> 01:37:44.383 Um, one of the things with burnout, , that I find interesting 01:37:44.383 --> 01:37:46.663 is that we're surprised by it. 01:37:47.773 --> 01:37:48.343 Hmm. 01:37:48.703 --> 01:37:49.063 Right. 01:37:49.063 --> 01:37:50.203 And we're outraged by it. 01:37:50.203 --> 01:37:52.033 It's like, oh my God, I can't believe I burned, you know, it's like, 01:37:52.213 --> 01:37:53.923 well, of course one burned out. 01:37:54.253 --> 01:37:54.613 You know? 01:37:55.033 --> 01:38:00.273 And of course, one burns out regularly and often and, um, it, 01:38:00.683 --> 01:38:02.353 it, and fires need to be re-lit. 01:38:02.413 --> 01:38:03.463 I, I, I. 01:38:05.713 --> 01:38:09.523 I say this as if it was obvious, but of course, you know, I myself had to 01:38:09.733 --> 01:38:11.803 spend 30 years before I tumbled to this. 01:38:12.283 --> 01:38:21.003 Um, that of course burnout's inevitable and , in fact is often I think proof 01:38:21.003 --> 01:38:22.293 that you're doing very good work. 01:38:22.863 --> 01:38:26.293 Now, mums burnout because they're great moms, , people burn out in 01:38:26.293 --> 01:38:28.843 their jobs cuz they're working very hard and, and and doing a good job. 01:38:28.843 --> 01:38:34.903 And, but obviously in, in, in this line of work with equine, anything equine, 01:38:35.653 --> 01:38:39.853 but particularly equine with vulnerable human populations, not to mention 01:38:39.853 --> 01:38:44.623 vulnerable equine populations, which of course you do, you also have this 01:38:44.623 --> 01:38:46.273 responsibility to keep everybody safe. 01:38:46.823 --> 01:38:47.433 Mm-hmm. 01:38:47.623 --> 01:38:52.933 And so into the bargain on top of how exhausting and demanding and 01:38:52.933 --> 01:38:55.093 absorbing and amazing and interesting and all these things that work 01:38:55.093 --> 01:39:01.273 is, there's also this underlying stress constantly of, I, I must. 01:39:01.903 --> 01:39:05.593 Keep everybody safe in a, in an environment that has many, many 01:39:05.593 --> 01:39:09.493 inherent risks, um, and take responsibility for those risks. 01:39:09.853 --> 01:39:16.123 So what often surprises me is that we have no, no training has offered 01:39:16.123 --> 01:39:19.453 us, or no mentorship has offered us, whether it's from our parents or in 01:39:19.573 --> 01:39:25.693 school or in college later, or, uh, that prepares us for the inevitability 01:39:25.693 --> 01:39:29.803 of burnout and almost allows us to make friends with burnout and to say mm-hmm. 01:39:30.153 --> 01:39:30.393 mm-hmm. 01:39:30.473 --> 01:39:31.843 from time to time you will burn out. 01:39:32.323 --> 01:39:36.613 And that's okay, because really that's just says now you need a pause 01:39:37.003 --> 01:39:39.673 between the last awesome thing and the next awesome thing that you're 01:39:39.673 --> 01:39:43.183 gonna take on, you know, even, even Hercules rest between the 12 tasks. 01:39:43.663 --> 01:39:52.413 And, , so given that, , what's your advice for, particularly for younger 01:39:52.418 --> 01:39:54.003 people coming into this field? 01:39:54.693 --> 01:39:58.623 Um, because a lot of people come into it, obviously, with a lot of altruism as as, 01:39:58.623 --> 01:40:00.363 as one should, altruism is a good thing. 01:40:00.843 --> 01:40:02.103 , and then they of course get surprised. 01:40:02.673 --> 01:40:08.823 What's your advice to someone going into the field for how to thrive? 01:40:09.309 --> 01:40:13.029 help me pronounce his name because your French is way more sophisticated. 01:40:13.034 --> 01:40:17.849 Albert Camu camu you, you youu, you, you hit it right first Camu. 01:40:18.079 --> 01:40:18.569 Okay. 01:40:19.029 --> 01:40:29.409 Um, like a camel with a Ooh , A camel with a Ooh . A uh, uh, wrote an essay, 01:40:29.779 --> 01:40:36.089 , called The Myth of Sisyphus, , that I'm a nerd and I love essays and, 01:40:36.119 --> 01:40:42.719 um, it's the most beautiful story. 01:40:42.929 --> 01:40:45.239 And, and, and write Sisyphus. 01:40:46.079 --> 01:40:51.299 That was his, his his, his sentence right, is to roll this boulder 01:40:51.299 --> 01:40:54.329 up to the top of the hill and it rolls back down every time. 01:40:54.329 --> 01:41:00.239 And he's, he's destined to have to do this over and over and over and over again. 01:41:01.259 --> 01:41:09.899 And, uh, what Kamoo does is he said, what if we imagine Sisyphus is happy in his 01:41:09.899 --> 01:41:12.659 job, that it's the natural, normal thing. 01:41:12.989 --> 01:41:16.949 Of course, the Boulder rail rolled down the hill, it's supposed to 01:41:16.949 --> 01:41:20.759 roll down the hill, and now he knows exactly what he needs to do. 01:41:21.239 --> 01:41:25.289 And so he stands at the top of the hill and he watches that boulder down and 01:41:25.579 --> 01:41:30.749 he laughs and he says, ah, I gotta go back down the hill and get the boulder. 01:41:32.579 --> 01:41:36.029 That to me, is the most beautiful anti burnout story. 01:41:36.029 --> 01:41:38.129 There he is, and it, ah, and I review it. 01:41:39.469 --> 01:41:39.629 Interesting. 01:41:39.629 --> 01:41:40.889 I review it pretty regularly. 01:41:41.129 --> 01:41:42.869 Thank you for the tip bright. 01:41:42.869 --> 01:41:44.009 So the rolling up of the. 01:41:44.849 --> 01:41:48.299 The boulder is its own art form to be read the rolling up. 01:41:48.299 --> 01:41:50.009 He knows what his work is. 01:41:50.219 --> 01:41:50.579 Yeah, right. 01:41:50.579 --> 01:41:52.319 He knows exactly what he has to do. 01:41:52.319 --> 01:41:53.669 And how beautiful is that? 01:41:53.669 --> 01:41:55.169 To know exactly what you have to do. 01:41:55.169 --> 01:41:58.799 And perhaps with every time he rolls it up, he notices more nuances of 01:41:58.799 --> 01:42:03.839 the stone or more nuances of the vegetation, or strengthen his body, 01:42:03.839 --> 01:42:07.619 or he chooses to be happy at his task. 01:42:08.249 --> 01:42:13.739 He chooses to find something interest, he chooses to find some difference, 01:42:13.739 --> 01:42:16.019 something to learn something about it. 01:42:16.019 --> 01:42:19.469 He chooses to be happy that he knows exactly what he needs to do. 01:42:20.189 --> 01:42:22.859 He has a choice and he chooses happiness. 01:42:22.859 --> 01:42:24.989 A lovely, lovely metaphor. 01:42:24.989 --> 01:42:26.009 I'm so gonna steal this. 01:42:26.729 --> 01:42:27.929 Um, yeah. 01:42:28.079 --> 01:42:28.589 Enjoy it. 01:42:28.829 --> 01:42:29.309 Thank you. 01:42:29.359 --> 01:42:32.174 , because the, you know, obviously in all of our line of work, we're 01:42:32.174 --> 01:42:34.754 dealing with burnout, whether it's ourselves or people we're working 01:42:34.754 --> 01:42:38.504 with, or workshops we're giving or, you know, blah, even with horses. 01:42:39.104 --> 01:42:40.514 Um, but yes. 01:42:41.199 --> 01:42:41.834 . It's true. 01:42:41.864 --> 01:42:43.664 We do not stop to consider. 01:42:43.664 --> 01:42:46.484 Thank you for bringing this to our attention. 01:42:46.784 --> 01:42:52.994 We do not stop to consider that the beauty of starting again from scratch. 01:42:53.184 --> 01:42:53.794 Mm-hmm. 01:42:53.904 --> 01:42:54.514 . Mm-hmm. 01:42:54.614 --> 01:42:55.394 every time. 01:42:56.294 --> 01:42:57.974 Um, like I know this is a writer. 01:42:58.344 --> 01:43:01.669 , when I write a new book, it really doesn't matter how many books I've written. 01:43:01.669 --> 01:43:03.379 It doesn't matter if they were successful. 01:43:03.529 --> 01:43:07.279 Is that, that you are starting from the beginning every time and there's 01:43:07.279 --> 01:43:12.649 this feeling of, oh, I thought I knew how to write and now it's like, ah, 01:43:12.679 --> 01:43:14.179 it feels like rolling above up out. 01:43:14.569 --> 01:43:19.099 Um, interestingly, I do not have that reaction when I'm starting a new horses. 01:43:19.099 --> 01:43:21.649 I always have that thing of, oh, here I go again. 01:43:22.159 --> 01:43:22.439 Interesting. 01:43:22.444 --> 01:43:23.759 You know, you know. 01:43:23.899 --> 01:43:28.819 , but what I've had to learn to do with writing is to say to myself when it. 01:43:32.929 --> 01:43:33.079 Sian 01:43:36.499 --> 01:43:43.159 Sian with the camels, with an, when it feels that way. 01:43:43.369 --> 01:43:46.849 Um, it's just to put one, I call it putting one word in front of the 01:43:46.849 --> 01:43:50.659 other, saying, well, mm-hmm , it's maybe be rubbish now, but it will 01:43:50.659 --> 01:43:52.579 not become good until it exists. 01:43:52.849 --> 01:43:56.239 So let it exist as rubbish and then I can make it good later. 01:43:56.749 --> 01:44:01.039 Um, we don't give ourselves that permission, do we? 01:44:01.044 --> 01:44:02.719 We we gotta be perfect every time. 01:44:03.109 --> 01:44:03.199 Mm-hmm. 01:44:03.444 --> 01:44:05.869 , that's where, that's where the stressors comes in, in, in, in dressers. 01:44:06.049 --> 01:44:08.839 Well, you didn't execute that thing perfect as well. 01:44:08.839 --> 01:44:09.439 Of course I didn't. 01:44:09.439 --> 01:44:12.079 Cause I'm going through a learning curve, you know, . How, how could 01:44:12.079 --> 01:44:14.119 I, how could I possibly, you know? 01:44:14.179 --> 01:44:15.889 Um, and by the way, I never will actually. 01:44:15.889 --> 01:44:18.739 I'd like to move in that direction, but none of us will ever achieve perfection. 01:44:19.129 --> 01:44:21.859 Um, and of course the joy is killed. 01:44:21.859 --> 01:44:26.449 And you've talked about joy a lot and I love that you've brought into the 01:44:26.449 --> 01:44:33.094 system sub . Um, Boulder rolling uphill thing that, that, that could actually be 01:44:33.154 --> 01:44:36.394 really joyful and to, to consider that. 01:44:36.594 --> 01:44:37.204 Mm-hmm. 01:44:37.289 --> 01:44:40.144 rather than saying, this burnout thing is a dragon. 01:44:40.144 --> 01:44:43.114 Ima slay, like, this autism thing is a dragon Ima slay. 01:44:43.114 --> 01:44:43.524 We know. 01:44:43.524 --> 01:44:44.284 Well, that will never work. 01:44:44.374 --> 01:44:44.464 Yeah. 01:44:44.524 --> 01:44:46.774 The autism is a perfectly viable way to go through life. 01:44:46.984 --> 01:44:51.694 Otherwise, temple Grandin would not have, or the degrees she had and hasn't not 01:44:51.694 --> 01:44:52.774 have published all the books she has. 01:44:52.774 --> 01:44:54.874 And it's clearly, she's very successful and autistic. 01:44:55.054 --> 01:44:59.104 So the, the burnout is the burn is the autism problems, the burnout, the 01:44:59.104 --> 01:45:00.724 problem, no suffering is the problem. 01:45:01.214 --> 01:45:01.824 Mm-hmm. 01:45:01.904 --> 01:45:02.764 . Mm-hmm , that's the problem. 01:45:02.824 --> 01:45:03.104 Mm-hmm. 01:45:03.184 --> 01:45:07.744 , the, the suffering brain, cortisol, stress hormone learning brain is the happy brain. 01:45:08.464 --> 01:45:10.954 The unhappy brain is not the learning brain. 01:45:11.504 --> 01:45:15.014 , but I love how you've just brought that to our attention. 01:45:15.014 --> 01:45:23.264 So how would you help an ambitious and impatient young 01:45:23.354 --> 01:45:25.014 person going into this field? 01:45:26.389 --> 01:45:30.314 , um, and, and perfectionistic because horse people are, , to come to 01:45:30.314 --> 01:45:34.854 that , , outlook and, um, perspective. 01:45:35.844 --> 01:45:36.324 Give us a tip. 01:45:37.104 --> 01:45:45.194 I think, I think journaling is really critical, um, because it gives you an 01:45:45.199 --> 01:45:49.214 opportunity to make that choice, right? 01:45:49.694 --> 01:45:52.694 Of course, the boulder r rolled down the hill again. 01:45:53.114 --> 01:45:56.354 It's supposed to, and it's going to the next time and the next time. 01:45:57.074 --> 01:46:01.304 And so you can stand at the top of the mountain and curse, and yell and kick. 01:46:01.514 --> 01:46:07.454 Um, but if you, if you journal it out, then you get the opportunity 01:46:07.454 --> 01:46:13.424 to reframe the situation and make a choice as to how you wanna proceed 01:46:13.964 --> 01:46:15.614 and how you wanna be proceed. 01:46:16.829 --> 01:46:18.509 , you know, why are you in this field? 01:46:19.139 --> 01:46:25.499 And any of us in mental health, any of us in healing need to think about why we're 01:46:25.499 --> 01:46:31.769 in the field and we need to think about it regularly so that we don't fall into 01:46:31.769 --> 01:46:35.879 the trap of pity and being condescending. 01:46:35.884 --> 01:46:40.109 Because once we're there, we are not helping anyone. 01:46:41.309 --> 01:46:41.819 No. 01:46:41.819 --> 01:46:45.149 And, and then of course, we, we, we, , very quickly, slightly to self-pity. 01:46:45.629 --> 01:46:46.239 Mm-hmm. 01:46:46.319 --> 01:46:46.519 . Mm-hmm. 01:46:46.604 --> 01:46:47.489 and self condescending. 01:46:47.494 --> 01:46:48.059 That's natural. 01:46:48.059 --> 01:46:49.289 Which is beating ourselves up. 01:46:49.289 --> 01:46:49.589 Yeah. 01:46:49.769 --> 01:46:50.129 Yeah. 01:46:50.134 --> 01:46:50.319 Mm-hmm. 01:46:50.399 --> 01:46:50.719 . Mm-hmm. 01:46:50.799 --> 01:46:50.959 . Mm-hmm. 01:46:51.059 --> 01:46:51.749 . , and I do agree with you. 01:46:51.749 --> 01:46:52.259 I think it's natural. 01:46:52.259 --> 01:46:56.339 I don't think one can, I don't think one can escape it because 01:46:56.339 --> 01:46:58.649 I think that's part of the human condition, but perhaps one can learn 01:46:58.649 --> 01:47:01.559 to use it as a thriving mechanism. 01:47:02.159 --> 01:47:02.429 Mm-hmm. 01:47:02.539 --> 01:47:02.859 . Mm-hmm. 01:47:02.939 --> 01:47:03.459 . Mm-hmm. 01:47:03.539 --> 01:47:05.219 . Um, is this, is this the acquisition of wisdom? 01:47:05.224 --> 01:47:08.249 Is this the acquisition of, of resources and skills? 01:47:08.969 --> 01:47:14.999 Does Ssus get a little buffer, richer, happier, healthier, fitter. 01:47:15.819 --> 01:47:17.684 every time he rolls the boulder up. 01:47:18.124 --> 01:47:18.734 Mm-hmm. 01:47:18.924 --> 01:47:19.534 . Mm-hmm. 01:47:19.824 --> 01:47:24.884 is the, is the rolling of the boulder up the, the thriving, 01:47:25.574 --> 01:47:27.674 and is the relaxed walk down. 01:47:28.724 --> 01:47:30.014 Could you be admiring the view? 01:47:30.044 --> 01:47:32.474 Could you be, is that, is that your, is that your retreat time? 01:47:32.894 --> 01:47:33.504 Mm-hmm. 01:47:34.064 --> 01:47:34.674 . Mm-hmm. 01:47:34.759 --> 01:47:37.004 when just walking relaxed down the hill, swinging. 01:47:37.004 --> 01:47:40.724 I was whistling, smelling the herbs on the mountain, looking at the sea. 01:47:41.834 --> 01:47:44.144 Cause I've just placed myself in California in ancient 01:47:44.144 --> 01:47:44.834 Greece for some reason. 01:47:45.629 --> 01:47:49.064 and, um, then, oh look, here's a, the boulder again. 01:47:50.144 --> 01:47:53.894 . There it's, oh, there you're again. 01:47:54.194 --> 01:47:56.264 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:47:59.264 --> 01:48:00.014 Humor helps now. 01:48:01.064 --> 01:48:01.694 Humor helps. 01:48:03.284 --> 01:48:06.044 Tell me a funny story from Square Pack 01:48:06.674 --> 01:48:09.824 We have a little boy. 01:48:11.174 --> 01:48:16.779 Um, He's adopted, , his life before adoption, pretty traumatic. 01:48:17.469 --> 01:48:19.209 And he's, he's beautiful. 01:48:19.479 --> 01:48:23.699 , he's just, he's just so damn cute and, , and very innocent looking. 01:48:24.719 --> 01:48:35.099 And when he's frustrated, he, he says some very bad words, words, naughty words. 01:48:35.999 --> 01:48:37.019 Naughty words. 01:48:37.349 --> 01:48:42.419 And he says them in context, . And he sends them, which is really impressive. 01:48:43.079 --> 01:48:46.789 And, , his, his, his mom is wonderful. 01:48:46.869 --> 01:48:52.479 , and she knows with him and, and, and he runs hard and he chases things. 01:48:52.479 --> 01:48:56.439 And this is a kid who can pluck a butterfly out of the. 01:48:57.564 --> 01:48:59.144 , you know, , he, what did he catch? 01:48:59.324 --> 01:49:01.304 Well, he caught a coil with his hands. 01:49:01.304 --> 01:49:01.634 What? 01:49:01.994 --> 01:49:04.244 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:49:04.304 --> 01:49:05.844 He, um, that, that 01:49:10.214 --> 01:49:12.844 it's very like, I don't, yeah. 01:49:12.844 --> 01:49:12.924 Yeah. 01:49:13.034 --> 01:49:17.084 I cannot imagine that we're or something. 01:49:17.084 --> 01:49:17.884 Yeah, yeah. 01:49:17.884 --> 01:49:18.124 Yeah. 01:49:18.124 --> 01:49:21.074 Um, April between 15 feet into there, I know how fast those things grew. 01:49:21.074 --> 01:49:21.134 Yeah. 01:49:21.884 --> 01:49:24.734 Aqua, he, , he caught, he caught a rubber boa. 01:49:24.764 --> 01:49:26.864 We haven't seen a rubber boa here. 01:49:26.924 --> 01:49:29.964 He has caught, um, the snake skins. 01:49:30.044 --> 01:49:30.374 Yeah. 01:49:30.494 --> 01:49:30.884 Yeah. 01:49:30.974 --> 01:49:31.394 Okay. 01:49:31.604 --> 01:49:33.044 He's caught little skins. 01:49:33.104 --> 01:49:37.904 Um, I brought him to a place one time that had a little rabbit hutch in it 01:49:38.354 --> 01:49:40.094 and turned my head to do something. 01:49:40.094 --> 01:49:40.514 Turned back. 01:49:40.514 --> 01:49:41.984 He was in the rabbit hutch. 01:49:43.289 --> 01:49:44.219 Which is impressive. 01:49:44.849 --> 01:49:47.759 . Uh, so, you know, he's super, super, super physical. 01:49:47.759 --> 01:49:54.479 And so being on the horse, on the lunge at the canner is really regulating for him. 01:49:54.479 --> 01:49:55.979 Lots of sleep problems. 01:49:56.219 --> 01:50:01.949 Um, but he wanted to run around and, you know, and catch snakes and his 01:50:01.949 --> 01:50:03.389 mother's like, look naughty word. 01:50:04.229 --> 01:50:04.469 Yeah. 01:50:04.469 --> 01:50:06.869 And well, is that, is that, is that the key? 01:50:06.869 --> 01:50:10.109 He shouts, he's very naughty as the, and the, the snakes freeze in shock and 01:50:11.339 --> 01:50:13.109 No, but his mom saying can mood you. 01:50:13.469 --> 01:50:18.629 He, he can't keep coming back unless he spends at least 25 minutes on the horse. 01:50:18.899 --> 01:50:22.139 So we're trying to figure out how to, how to do this without 01:50:22.259 --> 01:50:23.969 forcing him on the horse. 01:50:23.969 --> 01:50:25.829 So, , why, why did she say that out of interest? 01:50:25.829 --> 01:50:26.519 Why does it matter? 01:50:27.389 --> 01:50:28.529 It, it matters to her. 01:50:28.799 --> 01:50:33.659 And, um, that's, we've, we've talked about it, but it, it matters to her. 01:50:33.849 --> 01:50:34.339 Okay. 01:50:34.499 --> 01:50:39.344 And I think mostly because when he is on the horse, , , he's, it, it it's 01:50:39.404 --> 01:50:41.774 demonstrable how much better he sleeps. 01:50:41.954 --> 01:50:42.224 Right. 01:50:42.224 --> 01:50:42.254 Okay. 01:50:42.284 --> 01:50:45.914 And their life is much better when he sleeps, obviously. 01:50:46.014 --> 01:50:46.254 Okay. 01:50:47.584 --> 01:50:54.704 So , we told him that, , that the horse's back is a safe place where 01:50:54.704 --> 01:50:56.774 he can say anything he wants. 01:50:58.584 --> 01:50:59.874 Did he take that opportunity? 01:51:00.564 --> 01:51:01.104 He did. 01:51:02.067 --> 01:51:04.917 And the problem is it's really hard to keep lunging a pony when 01:51:04.917 --> 01:51:14.687 this adorable seven year old going, beep, beep, beep, mother. 01:51:14.937 --> 01:51:16.587 So we're trying not to fall on the ground. 01:51:16.587 --> 01:51:19.977 And we of course, know that we're reinforcing the behavior by laughing. 01:51:19.977 --> 01:51:26.037 And so, so now his mom comes back and she's like, look, , we're 01:51:30.477 --> 01:51:31.167 pretty much. 01:51:32.397 --> 01:51:35.487 . And, and of course we, we think that we've, you know, really 01:51:35.577 --> 01:51:36.597 pulled off something great. 01:51:36.597 --> 01:51:40.767 So , but you know, she, she knows that he's gonna get in a lot of trouble 01:51:41.757 --> 01:51:46.197 for, um, mother for, you know, saying bad words for the mother, Pete. 01:51:46.557 --> 01:51:53.487 And, uh, so we had to come up with secret swear words that were so 01:51:53.487 --> 01:51:59.247 awful and so terrible, Ooh, that, um, you know, they, they can only 01:51:59.247 --> 01:52:01.137 be spoken from the ponies back 01:52:02.637 --> 01:52:06.867 And so as a staff, we would come up with these nonsense words and we would say 01:52:06.872 --> 01:52:12.957 them, and we were just like, oh, you know, everybody would like, would you? 01:52:12.987 --> 01:52:16.617 Now he's got this adorable seven year old panning around going 01:52:17.157 --> 01:52:21.847 bar fig newgen, bar, fig Newgen. 01:52:23.087 --> 01:52:23.507 Ooh. 01:52:24.582 --> 01:52:24.717 . Yeah. 01:52:24.717 --> 01:52:25.377 I felt chill. 01:52:25.377 --> 01:52:27.687 Like German is fantastic that way, right? 01:52:27.687 --> 01:52:28.017 Yeah. 01:52:28.017 --> 01:52:30.717 And then you would have to just like, and then you would, you would make 01:52:30.717 --> 01:52:33.837 it so that other people would be walking by and just like, oh, kind of 01:52:33.837 --> 01:52:37.497 flinch, you know, as he would say it, because the payoff would be so big. 01:52:37.977 --> 01:52:41.337 So we would, you know, it's spend the whole week coming up with these, these 01:52:41.342 --> 01:52:43.587 terrible, terrible made up words. 01:52:43.917 --> 01:52:46.347 Um, but Fark Newgen is one of the best ones. 01:52:46.347 --> 01:52:50.967 And so even today, far, this was months ago, we did this Fig Far Newgen. 01:52:51.097 --> 01:52:54.617 Yeah, fig was, that's, that's, that's remember, oh, ooh, that's, yeah. 01:52:54.617 --> 01:52:55.537 No, that, yeah. 01:52:55.537 --> 01:52:57.017 Definitely freezes the spleen. 01:52:57.017 --> 01:52:57.817 Yeah, absolutely. 01:52:57.817 --> 01:52:58.257 It does. 01:52:58.257 --> 01:52:58.657 It does. 01:52:59.247 --> 01:52:59.737 Yeah. 01:52:59.847 --> 01:53:01.917 You have to kind of wipe up after saying that. 01:53:03.807 --> 01:53:04.977 Yeah's confession. 01:53:04.977 --> 01:53:06.327 Yeah, exactly. 01:53:07.857 --> 01:53:08.877 Bless me, father far. 01:53:08.877 --> 01:53:10.417 I far kin. 01:53:11.097 --> 01:53:17.007 Um, it's just a funny, funny, funny story and, and coming up with new 01:53:17.012 --> 01:53:20.607 words or just walking by him and leaning over and whispering in his ear. 01:53:20.612 --> 01:53:21.027 Dude. 01:53:22.302 --> 01:53:25.212 Perfect nugget, , like running away and laughing. 01:53:26.289 --> 01:53:30.219 you know, it's really interesting that, because I remember with um, my son Rowan, 01:53:30.549 --> 01:53:36.009 when he went through a phase now, 10, 12 years ago, or wanting to say, beep beep, 01:53:36.039 --> 01:53:37.599 beep, beep, beep, beep all the time. 01:53:38.079 --> 01:53:41.259 And we gave him a safe place to do it and people said, you know, oh, he's 01:53:41.259 --> 01:53:42.579 gonna just abuse that all the time. 01:53:42.939 --> 01:53:45.759 And yeah, there were a couple of times he said it in the wrong place, but actually 01:53:45.759 --> 01:53:49.719 what happened is he totally got it out of his system and um, we didn't make it 01:53:49.724 --> 01:53:55.629 a holy grail and we made it funny and we realized it was gonna happen anyway. 01:53:55.634 --> 01:53:56.919 So we rather roll with it. 01:53:57.039 --> 01:53:59.799 But then I also taught him the history of those words. 01:53:59.829 --> 01:54:01.779 Cause there's a very old words in the English language. 01:54:01.779 --> 01:54:05.439 In fact, they show up in Be Wolff and from the fifth century, you 01:54:05.439 --> 01:54:06.969 know, the first poem in English. 01:54:06.969 --> 01:54:07.989 And that's, it's in there. 01:54:08.469 --> 01:54:13.779 Um, the one we all know, , The fun one and, , fun one then. 01:54:13.784 --> 01:54:16.899 And then from there we could go into Anglo-Saxon history and then fall of the 01:54:16.899 --> 01:54:18.879 Empire and, you know, blah, blah, blah. 01:54:18.879 --> 01:54:21.939 And we could go further then up into Norse history and the Norse gods. 01:54:21.944 --> 01:54:24.819 And it was, it was a really good way into all sorts of things. 01:54:24.909 --> 01:54:27.219 Um, and then to reading the, the poem itself. 01:54:27.699 --> 01:54:33.399 Um, so what I love is that what you did is as well as giving the safe space and 01:54:33.399 --> 01:54:37.299 the regulating behavior, and he's now on the horse and having fun and sleeping, but 01:54:37.299 --> 01:54:39.579 also you've shown him, , social context. 01:54:40.269 --> 01:54:40.359 Mm-hmm. 01:54:40.689 --> 01:54:40.849 . Mm-hmm. 01:54:40.929 --> 01:54:45.099 , you've shown him in a really stealthy under the table sort of way. 01:54:45.219 --> 01:54:46.809 So he, it's not gonna be resisted. 01:54:47.379 --> 01:54:55.149 , this is how you can be fun and a bit naughty in a social context that will be 01:54:55.154 --> 01:54:57.969 then rewarded and you won't be punished. 01:54:57.969 --> 01:55:03.489 And it's also inventive, but what I really love is you, you hit on a very 01:55:03.489 --> 01:55:05.709 key thing, which I feel is often missing. 01:55:06.364 --> 01:55:09.709 in the world of, of equine, , assisted stuff. 01:55:09.709 --> 01:55:11.119 It's a very bit of a serious world. 01:55:11.379 --> 01:55:11.989 Mm-hmm. 01:55:12.069 --> 01:55:13.849 , um, and to the detriment. 01:55:13.879 --> 01:55:16.389 I, you know, I, I think if you're working, particularly if you're working with 01:55:16.389 --> 01:55:20.449 kids, it's like if you're not laughing at least every couple of minutes, 01:55:20.454 --> 01:55:21.559 you're kind of in the wrong business. 01:55:21.919 --> 01:55:29.379 , any time one is you, it's using, , toilet humor or a four letter or, or whatever. 01:55:29.959 --> 01:55:30.889 , it's an act of rebellion. 01:55:31.879 --> 01:55:31.969 Mm-hmm. 01:55:32.209 --> 01:55:39.349 . And if a child is being told from day one, you are not right. 01:55:39.379 --> 01:55:40.339 You need therapy. 01:55:40.339 --> 01:55:42.709 That's why you are going to this square pay place, or this is, 01:55:42.949 --> 01:55:45.049 that's why you're going into this therapeutic writing place or whatever, 01:55:45.409 --> 01:55:48.169 and they're also in all these other therapies and blah, blah, blah, blah. 01:55:49.039 --> 01:55:49.939 And you are not right. 01:55:49.939 --> 01:55:50.479 You're not right. 01:55:50.479 --> 01:55:53.029 You're not right and you must do this and you must do that, and da, 01:55:53.029 --> 01:55:54.739 da da, and their spirits get broken. 01:55:55.219 --> 01:55:55.879 You see this? 01:55:56.059 --> 01:55:56.149 Mm-hmm. 01:55:56.329 --> 01:55:58.039 What we call, you know, being therapied out. 01:55:58.039 --> 01:55:59.149 It's another form of burnout. 01:56:00.149 --> 01:56:08.944 and I know so few people who are able to restore the broken spirits of people. 01:56:08.949 --> 01:56:13.414 Cause it's not just kids who have been given a profound sense 01:56:13.414 --> 01:56:14.494 of shame about who they are. 01:56:15.304 --> 01:56:15.544 Mm-hmm. 01:56:15.789 --> 01:56:18.754 . And the only way that's a form of oppression and the only way 01:56:18.754 --> 01:56:23.704 you can shake off the oppressor is to rebel, to break the chains. 01:56:24.184 --> 01:56:25.924 And often that's violently done. 01:56:25.924 --> 01:56:28.114 I mean, that's obviously what teenage rebellion is and so on. 01:56:28.594 --> 01:56:35.344 And um, to give an outlet for that where you can rebel in a constructive 01:56:35.344 --> 01:56:40.384 way that will not get you in trouble, will actually when you brownie points, 01:56:40.384 --> 01:56:43.294 but will restore your self-respect. 01:56:44.644 --> 01:56:45.304 That's genius. 01:56:45.304 --> 01:56:50.494 And that's why I wanted to talk to you because I don't know many people, 01:56:50.494 --> 01:56:58.414 Joel, who can do that, where you see the bigger picture you follow. 01:56:58.959 --> 01:57:04.654 where the child is at, you see what the dangers are, and you sidestep them 01:57:05.494 --> 01:57:11.374 by coming up with something inventive that negates the negative side, but 01:57:12.274 --> 01:57:13.684 gives all the positive outcomes. 01:57:15.064 --> 01:57:15.634 It's genius. 01:57:16.444 --> 01:57:22.414 Um, are you training people at Square Back? 01:57:23.134 --> 01:57:23.674 Are you men? 01:57:23.774 --> 01:57:25.844 We are, yeah. 01:57:25.894 --> 01:57:28.444 We, how did somebody get trained or mentored by you? 01:57:29.704 --> 01:57:30.064 Mm-hmm. 01:57:33.034 --> 01:57:37.834 You know, the pandemic slowed down a lot of the mentoring that I was 01:57:37.834 --> 01:57:42.754 doing for new programs, which I realized I really, really enjoyed. 01:57:43.234 --> 01:57:45.064 Um, I loved travel. 01:57:45.454 --> 01:57:51.184 I love working with people with their horses and their facility and giving them 01:57:51.274 --> 01:57:54.814 license to learn the Farik Newgen game. 01:57:55.444 --> 01:57:58.279 , , , but you know, the pandemic slowed all of that down. 01:57:58.459 --> 01:58:04.489 But what I did was that I invested much more into our staff here 01:58:04.729 --> 01:58:06.859 and that, and our horses here. 01:58:07.549 --> 01:58:12.739 And, , we have some really brilliant humans working here and they're doing 01:58:13.099 --> 01:58:19.789 better work than I've ever done because of the work that has been done in the past 01:58:19.789 --> 01:58:28.079 because of spending, what, 7, 8, 9 years with Horse Boy Method and, , and, and, 01:58:28.079 --> 01:58:33.449 uh, and traveling around and seeing other world class programs like Miss Kenneth. 01:58:34.289 --> 01:58:39.299 , so I think that mentoring has been some of the most satisfying work 01:58:39.304 --> 01:58:42.659 I've ever done because I get to sit here and watch it bear fruit. 01:58:43.139 --> 01:58:43.559 Mm-hmm. 01:58:43.839 --> 01:58:44.799 , and then. 01:58:45.564 --> 01:58:52.494 We, we grew a job training program for young adults with autism and got that 01:58:52.494 --> 01:58:54.654 funded through a regional center here. 01:58:54.774 --> 01:59:00.714 And, um, most people in this field, uh, especially if you're a nonprofit, 01:59:00.714 --> 01:59:06.244 you will get a certain group of people who, I lost you again. 01:59:29.974 --> 01:59:30.584 Better? 01:59:30.774 --> 01:59:31.264 Yeah. 01:59:31.269 --> 01:59:31.854 Got you back. 01:59:32.124 --> 01:59:32.424 Good. 01:59:33.234 --> 01:59:33.804 Can you hear me okay? 01:59:34.054 --> 01:59:34.494 Yeah. 01:59:34.494 --> 01:59:35.054 Uhhuh. 01:59:35.134 --> 01:59:35.574 ? Yeah. 01:59:35.604 --> 01:59:36.094 Okay. 01:59:37.804 --> 01:59:42.189 , most people in the field, uh, most people in the field are going to 01:59:42.219 --> 01:59:45.159 get offers of people to volunteer. 01:59:45.159 --> 01:59:51.239 People who are, are a, , it's usually gonna be women in their forties, fifties. 01:59:51.639 --> 01:59:56.919 , people who want to be back around horses, haven't been around horses for a while. 01:59:58.209 --> 02:00:01.629 Um, they can be a tricky group to manage as volunteers. 02:00:01.634 --> 02:00:06.729 They have expectations, they have needs, they have, um, rules. 02:00:07.539 --> 02:00:16.449 Um, most of our young adults in our job training program have been therapied out. 02:00:16.449 --> 02:00:21.259 Like you said, people who, , have been told you are not able to do this. 02:00:21.264 --> 02:00:22.519 You are not good at this. 02:00:22.519 --> 02:00:24.109 You are not quick at this. 02:00:24.114 --> 02:00:27.529 You, there's this wrong with you that, wrong with you. 02:00:28.219 --> 02:00:33.559 Putting them in a position of power to the supervise volunteers. 02:00:34.594 --> 02:00:37.924 You put autistic young people in charge of bossy horsey women. 02:00:38.464 --> 02:00:38.554 Mm-hmm. 02:00:40.384 --> 02:00:40.594 . Yeah. 02:00:42.454 --> 02:00:43.234 Do you have this on video? 02:00:45.904 --> 02:00:47.434 with the ukulele soundtrack? 02:00:50.074 --> 02:00:50.764 . Wow. 02:00:51.214 --> 02:00:51.574 Yeah. 02:00:52.354 --> 02:00:52.804 Yeah. 02:00:53.344 --> 02:00:55.904 It is really amazing. 02:00:56.524 --> 02:00:59.344 So the, the authors are training the neurotypicals effect. 02:00:59.404 --> 02:00:59.494 Mm-hmm. 02:00:59.734 --> 02:01:00.574 , this is what it comes down to. 02:01:00.754 --> 02:01:01.354 Mm-hmm. 02:01:01.809 --> 02:01:01.904 . Mm-hmm. 02:01:02.224 --> 02:01:02.554 good author. 02:01:03.664 --> 02:01:11.764 And the care that they take, um, the, uh, uh, it can be pretty brutal at times. 02:01:12.274 --> 02:01:13.784 Uh, um mm-hmm. 02:01:13.864 --> 02:01:18.184 and I, I, I would to come and watch this 02:01:20.867 --> 02:01:26.147 and it may sound cruel, but how cruel is it that. 02:01:26.773 --> 02:01:26.958 Yeah. 02:01:27.168 --> 02:01:29.538 Uh, it's just a role reversal. 02:01:29.898 --> 02:01:30.048 Mm-hmm. 02:01:30.408 --> 02:01:32.898 and it's, it's, it's really beautiful. 02:01:33.628 --> 02:01:38.538 And watching, watching the person who is in charge of, of training 02:01:38.808 --> 02:01:44.390 the neurotypical people, watching that kind of brutal supervision 02:01:44.690 --> 02:01:48.860 soften over time is really special. 02:01:49.490 --> 02:01:51.260 Really, really, really, really special. 02:01:51.940 --> 02:01:54.520 , and it's, it's one of the things I'm quite proud of. 02:01:55.330 --> 02:01:57.340 Would you say that's the thing you're the most proud of? 02:01:57.340 --> 02:02:00.420 This, this, , employment step? 02:02:00.420 --> 02:02:07.290 I think just developing our staff period, you know, and staff meaning, you 02:02:07.290 --> 02:02:11.340 know, including our job training people has been the thing I'm most proud of. 02:02:11.760 --> 02:02:12.000 Yeah. 02:02:14.970 --> 02:02:18.840 And you, you talked about new locations, um mm-hmm. 02:02:20.700 --> 02:02:25.800 I happen to know because you told me, , that your half Moon Bay, 02:02:25.800 --> 02:02:28.140 your original location mm-hmm. 02:02:28.860 --> 02:02:30.000 is about to change. 02:02:30.630 --> 02:02:30.990 Mm-hmm. 02:02:31.450 --> 02:02:32.730 in a rather exciting way. 02:02:33.420 --> 02:02:34.710 Really an exciting way. 02:02:34.770 --> 02:02:34.960 Thank you. 02:02:34.960 --> 02:02:35.970 Could you tell us about that please? 02:02:36.900 --> 02:02:45.170 So we, , we have worked a deal, , in our area of Coastal Bay Area, California. 02:02:45.800 --> 02:02:49.670 Um, there is a subset of the National Park system called the Golden Gate 02:02:49.670 --> 02:02:55.790 National Recreation Area, and it's a sum total of I think eight or nine. 02:02:58.205 --> 02:03:04.365 Big pieces of property, , from Sonoma, which is about 80 miles north of us. 02:03:04.815 --> 02:03:09.345 , this piece of property we're gonna talk about is the southern most part, but it 02:03:09.345 --> 02:03:13.725 includes the Marin Headlands, which is the north part of the Golden Gate Bridge. 02:03:14.095 --> 02:03:18.715 , it includes, , a lot of the, the North Coast in Marin County. 02:03:19.175 --> 02:03:23.405 , the Presidio of San Francisco is part of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. 02:03:24.195 --> 02:03:27.405 , and then this piece of property that we're moving to is called the 02:03:27.410 --> 02:03:34.155 Rancho Corral Del Tierra, and it's 4,200 acres of coastal California. 02:03:35.445 --> 02:03:37.155 Um, can you see the ocean? 02:03:37.155 --> 02:03:39.705 And you can, you can. 02:03:41.095 --> 02:03:42.745 , yeah, so it's coastal. 02:03:43.025 --> 02:03:48.965 , Monte Mountain, we hiked it actually last week, is an 1800 foot vertical gain to 02:03:48.965 --> 02:03:54.255 the top with a view of the entire Bay Area, including, um, Mount Tamo Pius, 02:03:54.695 --> 02:03:58.325 Mount Hamilton, the top of the Golden Gate Bridge, and all the way down to Pescadero. 02:03:58.685 --> 02:04:00.845 If you look on a map, it's some of the most stunning 02:04:00.845 --> 02:04:02.645 landscape you can ever imagine. 02:04:03.155 --> 02:04:07.175 , and the, the, the trails are maintained by the Department of the Interior. 02:04:07.575 --> 02:04:11.265 , there's actually a state part right next door, so it's even more 02:04:11.270 --> 02:04:13.725 than 4,200 acres worth of trails. 02:04:14.025 --> 02:04:17.865 And you can access all this with your, with your autistic clients, with your. 02:04:18.765 --> 02:04:19.215 Good Lord. 02:04:19.325 --> 02:04:19.605 Yeah. 02:04:19.610 --> 02:04:19.845 Yeah. 02:04:19.965 --> 02:04:24.075 So we are, we're, um, right now the herd is split. 02:04:24.075 --> 02:04:28.485 We have six horses here in half Moon Bay and, , six in 02:04:28.485 --> 02:04:29.955 the Rancho Corral, Del Tierra. 02:04:29.960 --> 02:04:33.885 And so we do sessions all day and then we run over and we just get, and 02:04:33.885 --> 02:04:37.275 it's, it's mostly the thoroughbreds that are at the Rancho right now, 02:04:37.280 --> 02:04:41.385 getting them out on the trail and just getting used to, you know, there's 02:04:41.385 --> 02:04:43.335 gonna be loose dogs cuz it's a park. 02:04:43.335 --> 02:04:48.070 There's gonna be mountain bikes, , and, , just exploring trail loops that are gonna 02:04:48.070 --> 02:04:49.990 be appropriate for different clients. 02:04:50.040 --> 02:04:55.315 , we can actually in about 10 minutes ride from the, from where the horses are, we 02:04:55.320 --> 02:04:57.325 can be at the local elementary school. 02:04:57.325 --> 02:05:00.325 So we're looking at, um, engaging programs there. 02:05:00.805 --> 02:05:05.245 Um, parents can go for a hike and a picnic while their family members ride. 02:05:05.815 --> 02:05:11.265 , it is, you know, the ability to get out into stunningly beautiful natural spaces. 02:05:12.665 --> 02:05:13.980 is, , is so exciting. 02:05:14.220 --> 02:05:15.240 So this is so exciting. 02:05:15.240 --> 02:05:19.060 This is, this is genius because, , obviously for so many of us in 02:05:19.060 --> 02:05:22.270 the field, the idea of a barn and the barn has the land that it has. 02:05:22.570 --> 02:05:23.180 Mm-hmm. 02:05:23.200 --> 02:05:24.820 might be large, might be small. 02:05:25.420 --> 02:05:25.540 Mm-hmm. 02:05:25.740 --> 02:05:31.810 , but usually the, , the program is contained often in an arena which isn't, 02:05:31.990 --> 02:05:35.590 you know, ideal cause it's a sterile environment and you are now able to get 02:05:35.590 --> 02:05:37.060 out into all this public land with your. 02:05:38.260 --> 02:05:38.365 . Yeah. 02:05:38.635 --> 02:05:38.995 Yeah. 02:05:39.415 --> 02:05:43.615 And that was the thing is, you know, this is Silicon Valley, so, 02:05:43.665 --> 02:05:45.855 , real estate is cost-prohibitive. 02:05:46.065 --> 02:05:46.245 Mm-hmm. 02:05:46.490 --> 02:05:50.625 . Um, and, uh, and it's, uh, you know, nobody was jumping up and wanting 02:05:50.625 --> 02:05:55.875 to give us 20 acres, and even if they did, as you know, um, just 02:05:55.905 --> 02:05:57.645 maintaining your own trails Yeah. 02:05:57.675 --> 02:06:00.135 Suddenly takes away so much from your program. 02:06:00.175 --> 02:06:00.665 Yeah. 02:06:00.875 --> 02:06:06.015 Um, and, um, so now somebody else has to manage the trails and maintain them. 02:06:06.525 --> 02:06:10.995 Um, and we can focus on programs and we can focus on horse care. 02:06:11.000 --> 02:06:15.225 And we can focus on, on, on just getting people access to this. 02:06:15.225 --> 02:06:19.245 And in property that is meant to be shared mm-hmm. 02:06:19.485 --> 02:06:23.655 and we're bringing a population into the national park that is not traditionally. 02:06:24.255 --> 02:06:28.005 You know, participated in national parks, so the national park has a 02:06:28.010 --> 02:06:31.455 feather in their cap that they're reaching out to vulnerable populations 02:06:31.815 --> 02:06:34.125 that normally wouldn't access the park. 02:06:34.785 --> 02:06:37.035 Um, so, so perhaps it's really a win-win. 02:06:37.365 --> 02:06:40.815 You know, you talk about mentoring, would you say actually now? 02:06:41.685 --> 02:06:41.925 Yeah. 02:06:42.345 --> 02:06:47.025 To, would you recommend that, um, people who are running programs reach 02:06:47.025 --> 02:06:48.915 out to the public recreational land? 02:06:49.945 --> 02:06:50.335 , I think so. 02:06:50.335 --> 02:06:54.745 Organizations in the air and see, can we do our work in these areas 02:06:54.745 --> 02:06:57.315 because, , that's really where these people need to be, right. 02:06:57.315 --> 02:06:59.025 Is out in that type of nature. 02:06:59.145 --> 02:06:59.755 Mm-hmm. 02:06:59.835 --> 02:07:00.275 . Mm-hmm. 02:07:00.795 --> 02:07:03.015 . And we know that nature deficit disorder is a thing. 02:07:03.795 --> 02:07:08.445 Um, and we know that horses are a part of the American heritage. 02:07:09.515 --> 02:07:11.370 a a deep, important part. 02:07:11.370 --> 02:07:18.510 And so integrating horses into public parks and public trail systems is, is, is 02:07:18.510 --> 02:07:21.150 an important way to preserve that history. 02:07:21.150 --> 02:07:25.620 And we can sell that to communities, we can sell that to the 02:07:25.620 --> 02:07:27.480 organizations that own the Parklands. 02:07:27.510 --> 02:07:32.220 We can sell that, , and , and be able to focus our efforts and our, 02:07:32.280 --> 02:07:34.530 and our resources in programs. 02:07:34.620 --> 02:07:36.300 And I think it's really exciting. 02:07:36.810 --> 02:07:42.960 Um, I think that doing really innovative public and, and, and nonprofit 02:07:42.960 --> 02:07:45.060 partnerships is, is a way to go. 02:07:45.060 --> 02:07:50.250 And of course I learned that from the great Doyle and who we will have on this. 02:07:50.250 --> 02:07:55.500 Uh, if we can persuade him to talk man as an allergy to talking for 02:07:55.500 --> 02:07:56.940 those who he does who do not know. 02:07:56.940 --> 02:08:00.450 David Doyle is, , and you should tune into the David Do. 02:08:00.660 --> 02:08:04.760 David Doyle is actually the Wizard Merlin, , disguised as. 02:08:05.700 --> 02:08:10.900 An middle-aged Irishman, um, who runs the extraordinary li 02:08:10.900 --> 02:08:13.990 skin it farm in county Limerick. 02:08:14.020 --> 02:08:18.550 Um, one of the most extraordinary autism and mental health with horses, facilities 02:08:18.555 --> 02:08:20.470 that exists anywhere in the world. 02:08:20.470 --> 02:08:25.540 I think we all look up to him and I'll be definitely, , he just look for 02:08:25.540 --> 02:08:27.220 where I have him on, on the podcast. 02:08:27.490 --> 02:08:28.930 You do want to listen to David do. 02:08:29.410 --> 02:08:33.540 Um, one of the things which, , we're often talking about in this, , walk of 02:08:33.545 --> 02:08:35.880 life is how important environment is. 02:08:36.690 --> 02:08:41.520 And of course, you know, riding arenas are often sterile, smell bad. 02:08:41.550 --> 02:08:41.850 Yes. 02:08:41.850 --> 02:08:45.720 Sometimes if the weather is really bad, okay, then that's where we have to be. 02:08:45.720 --> 02:08:50.790 But we can bring the forest in perhaps, or put trees in there like we've put jumps or 02:08:50.790 --> 02:08:53.130 be imaginative about how we use the arena. 02:08:54.180 --> 02:08:55.620 But one was so much rather not. 02:08:55.620 --> 02:08:58.380 And you know, you talk about you've got access to this land and I can 02:08:58.380 --> 02:09:02.280 just hear now some people saying, oh well, but you know, we're, we are in. 02:09:02.625 --> 02:09:04.365 Europe or wherever and we don't have access to that. 02:09:04.755 --> 02:09:06.375 And I would always challenge that actually. 02:09:06.435 --> 02:09:11.025 So for example, where we are in Germany, um, we don't even 02:09:11.025 --> 02:09:12.165 own, own our own place to it. 02:09:12.195 --> 02:09:13.785 We're renting boxes. 02:09:14.205 --> 02:09:20.115 Um, but the land around us, there is free access on all the trails. 02:09:20.115 --> 02:09:22.875 It doesn't matter who owns it, you can ride across it, 02:09:23.025 --> 02:09:24.225 you can ride into the forest. 02:09:24.495 --> 02:09:25.905 So of course that's where we do our work. 02:09:26.295 --> 02:09:28.845 And I'll say to parents, okay, meet me in that carpark. 02:09:28.875 --> 02:09:30.855 I'll be over there with the horses to meet you. 02:09:31.065 --> 02:09:35.095 And we go to this lovely spring in the forest or to this , lovely 02:09:35.095 --> 02:09:36.145 little playground we've set up. 02:09:36.150 --> 02:09:39.235 Cause we hang silk hammocks from the trees or whatever, or whatever 02:09:39.235 --> 02:09:41.425 to think outside of arenas. 02:09:41.995 --> 02:09:48.235 Um, and the fact that you've now done this in public land, I think is a real, 02:09:48.295 --> 02:09:51.775 um, inspiration for others to follow. 02:09:51.775 --> 02:09:55.795 To please think we say, think outside the box, think outside the arena, and think 02:09:55.795 --> 02:09:57.565 outside of your own property boundaries. 02:09:58.225 --> 02:09:59.815 , is there National Forest near you? 02:09:59.845 --> 02:10:04.315 Is there a public park near you with a swing set that you don't have to 02:10:04.315 --> 02:10:07.375 raise 200,000 to put in because you can just go there and meet the kids 02:10:07.375 --> 02:10:08.665 and play there with your horse? 02:10:09.085 --> 02:10:13.465 Or can you use the resources, the outdoor resources that are in the area? 02:10:13.470 --> 02:10:15.685 And boy oh boy, are you doing that? 02:10:15.865 --> 02:10:20.485 Um, I cannot wait to to come check it out. 02:10:20.875 --> 02:10:25.475 , can people, when I first met you, , all those years ago, you were 02:10:25.475 --> 02:10:28.655 operating out of a trailer in mm-hmm. 02:10:28.985 --> 02:10:34.545 , a very confined riding arena, which, or riding boarding barn Really? 02:10:34.625 --> 02:10:38.495 Which did have access up a very, very steep, very difficult to get up 02:10:38.495 --> 02:10:43.985 trail to some open hill area, but, you know, most of what was going on 02:10:43.985 --> 02:10:46.235 was confined to an arena and mm-hmm. 02:10:46.425 --> 02:10:50.255 And I've then I saw you sort of expand out to a more spacious 02:10:50.765 --> 02:10:52.205 property, but it was still. 02:10:53.110 --> 02:10:56.855 , um, relying on what that property had within its boundaries. 02:10:57.215 --> 02:11:01.025 And now you seems you've expanded through just sort of a leap of 02:11:01.025 --> 02:11:08.285 imagination to a completely unlimited, , natural sort of Eden type playground. 02:11:10.445 --> 02:11:12.256 Is this something we could all do, do you think? 02:11:14.165 --> 02:11:14.465 Yeah. 02:11:14.705 --> 02:11:22.925 Um, you know, I I, we had been searching for about two years and I was pretty 02:11:22.925 --> 02:11:31.205 close to a deal on what looked like was gonna be a really nice deal. 02:11:31.385 --> 02:11:34.005 Uh, it was part of , , a sport horse breeding farm. 02:11:34.185 --> 02:11:35.355 Really nice farm. 02:11:35.355 --> 02:11:38.445 And she wanted to lease us or sell us a portion of it. 02:11:39.195 --> 02:11:42.910 , and she, she really wanted to make the deal work and, , and 02:11:42.910 --> 02:11:45.280 it just wasn't right in my gut. 02:11:45.430 --> 02:11:47.800 And I, and I couldn't figure out why. 02:11:48.430 --> 02:11:53.650 And, um, and David Doyle and his wife Moura were visiting and I sat 02:11:53.650 --> 02:11:59.770 him down and I said, you know, I, there's just, I, I don't know why I'm 02:11:59.770 --> 02:12:02.380 not feeling so confident about this. 02:12:02.770 --> 02:12:06.880 And he said, well, I'll tell you why you're not feeling confident about it. 02:12:08.080 --> 02:12:14.740 You have 140 families on a waiting list for services, and you would be moving to a 02:12:14.740 --> 02:12:18.550 place that is as big as where you are now. 02:12:18.610 --> 02:12:19.600 There's no room to grow. 02:12:21.340 --> 02:12:27.910 And I, oh, you're right, . You know, um, he said, you need, you 02:12:27.915 --> 02:12:33.490 need, you need to know exactly what the criteria is for a property. 02:12:34.240 --> 02:12:37.960 And the property will find you, you know, it's a square peg story. 02:12:37.960 --> 02:12:38.260 Right. 02:12:38.260 --> 02:12:40.600 I was trying to make an opportunity. 02:12:42.880 --> 02:12:44.230 That we had fit. 02:12:44.860 --> 02:12:47.440 And instead, I needed to reverse that. 02:12:47.500 --> 02:12:52.600 And I needed to, I needed to know what the dream was and 02:12:52.600 --> 02:12:54.340 then let that property find me. 02:12:54.640 --> 02:12:57.370 And it's a leap of faith that I didn't like taking, I like 02:12:57.430 --> 02:12:58.900 being in control of things. 02:12:59.590 --> 02:13:05.080 Um, but I came home from Ireland and I was waiting for my bags in the airport 02:13:05.110 --> 02:13:11.860 and the phone rang and I had talked about this property that we're, we're moving 02:13:11.860 --> 02:13:16.210 to a couple of years ago with the, with the woman who owns the, the lease on it. 02:13:17.020 --> 02:13:19.150 And we decided that it wasn't private enough. 02:13:19.720 --> 02:13:21.310 And so we'd given up on it. 02:13:21.520 --> 02:13:26.290 And she calls me and she says, you know, I know that we talked about Oceanview 02:13:26.290 --> 02:13:31.660 Farms, um, a couple of years ago, but I can't get square peg outta my mind. 02:13:31.660 --> 02:13:35.560 And it turns out that traditionally everything behind the arena had 02:13:35.560 --> 02:13:38.140 horses in it, but we haven't had horses there for years. 02:13:38.590 --> 02:13:40.510 What if we did a custom buildout for you? 02:13:41.360 --> 02:13:43.450 and then you would have all the privacy you need and have 02:13:43.450 --> 02:13:44.710 all the access to the trails. 02:13:44.710 --> 02:13:45.340 Would that work? 02:13:46.330 --> 02:13:46.570 Yeah. 02:13:47.440 --> 02:13:47.680 Yeah. 02:13:47.680 --> 02:13:48.070 That would work. 02:13:49.060 --> 02:13:50.500 So, so there you go. 02:13:50.620 --> 02:13:53.980 That's whether you call that manifesting or just dumb luck. 02:13:55.060 --> 02:14:02.860 Um, it wasn't until I knew exactly what we wanted in a facility that I was 02:14:02.860 --> 02:14:06.280 able to find it or for it to find us. 02:14:06.520 --> 02:14:09.340 Dream the dream and let the dream find you. 02:14:10.090 --> 02:14:10.330 Mm. 02:14:10.430 --> 02:14:10.870 Mm-hmm. 02:14:11.170 --> 02:14:11.440 . Mm-hmm. 02:14:12.220 --> 02:14:12.490 . Yeah. 02:14:12.820 --> 02:14:13.790 Where to live by. 02:14:13.960 --> 02:14:14.230 Yeah. 02:14:15.970 --> 02:14:16.180 Yeah. 02:14:16.630 --> 02:14:17.500 And proved out. 02:14:18.340 --> 02:14:18.730 Wow. 02:14:18.790 --> 02:14:18.910 Out. 02:14:19.390 --> 02:14:25.300 So if people want to come to Square peg and be mentored in how 02:14:25.300 --> 02:14:30.370 to create square pegs, or how to have more square peg in what they 02:14:30.370 --> 02:14:35.440 already do, um, can they do that? 02:14:35.800 --> 02:14:36.460 Can they contact. 02:14:37.365 --> 02:14:38.785 . They can, they can, yeah. 02:14:38.845 --> 02:14:43.375 It's gonna be a little wild and wooly until summer with us, you know, 02:14:43.495 --> 02:14:45.475 moving and getting reestablished. 02:14:45.865 --> 02:14:50.215 But we're really hoping by summer that we'll be able to, um, we'll 02:14:50.215 --> 02:14:52.615 be able to actively mentor people. 02:14:52.675 --> 02:14:58.165 It's something that gives us a lot of satisfaction, um, and, and it feels 02:14:58.165 --> 02:15:03.925 like that's one of the, the best ways to send those waves out into the world. 02:15:04.825 --> 02:15:05.185 Okay. 02:15:05.185 --> 02:15:08.515 So we will be putting in the links, , how to contact you, Joel. 02:15:09.175 --> 02:15:14.665 , yeah, with your permission and if people would like to go and be mentored by the 02:15:14.725 --> 02:15:19.075 amazing Joel Dunlap, which I certainly have been, , I would recommend it. 02:15:19.495 --> 02:15:22.165 , it seems to get one to rather lovely places. 02:15:22.645 --> 02:15:25.285 , if nothing else, it's a great excuse to go, um, check out that property. 02:15:26.185 --> 02:15:30.565 Um, so it's been an amazing story. 02:15:31.895 --> 02:15:35.410 , it's been an honor to talk to you. 02:15:36.630 --> 02:15:39.180 , and as long as I've known you, there were still aspects of the story that 02:15:39.180 --> 02:15:43.110 were unknown to me and gaps that you filled, which I find fascinating. 02:15:44.250 --> 02:15:45.750 What would you leave us with? 02:15:48.000 --> 02:15:50.760 What are your parting words of wisdom for us? 02:15:51.030 --> 02:15:51.750 Joe, I'll done that. 02:15:52.770 --> 02:15:57.810 Or square peg foundation for us in the equine assisted world, 02:15:58.196 --> 02:16:07.106 my favorite go-to whenever I am confused by a horse or a family that 02:16:07.106 --> 02:16:12.626 I'm working with, that I come back to is, is three really simple words, and 02:16:12.626 --> 02:16:17.216 that's always assume intelligence. 02:16:17.692 --> 02:16:18.622 And that has guided. 02:16:19.465 --> 02:16:21.160 through some big decisions. 02:16:22.031 --> 02:16:26.171 I'll leave that open-ended and for whatever interpretation or far fig. 02:16:26.681 --> 02:16:26.861 Yeah. 02:16:27.281 --> 02:16:30.461 I was just thinking, I'll try that with my morning affirmations in front 02:16:30.461 --> 02:16:32.051 of the mirror, look at myself and go. 02:16:38.981 --> 02:16:39.881 But very practical. 02:16:40.331 --> 02:16:41.411 Always assume intelligent. 02:16:41.411 --> 02:16:41.691 Yeah. 02:16:41.691 --> 02:16:41.971 Yes. 02:16:41.971 --> 02:16:43.091 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 02:16:43.721 --> 02:16:43.961 Yeah. 02:16:43.961 --> 02:16:44.621 I would agree. 02:16:44.626 --> 02:16:44.801 Yeah. 02:16:44.971 --> 02:16:52.931 Um, I never met anybody who was, or any other organism that was unintelligent, 02:16:52.931 --> 02:16:59.081 except in my own limited view of them, and it was my limited view. 02:16:59.081 --> 02:17:03.431 And when I shift there, I, I come to much more compassionate decisions. 02:17:03.851 --> 02:17:04.241 Mm. 02:17:04.571 --> 02:17:05.591 Less frustration. 02:17:05.741 --> 02:17:05.921 Yeah. 02:17:06.101 --> 02:17:06.931 Mm mm. 02:17:09.026 --> 02:17:09.326 Yeah. 02:17:09.446 --> 02:17:12.866 Looking for the, the beauty of rolling the rock up the hill. 02:17:14.186 --> 02:17:14.306 Mm-hmm. 02:17:14.876 --> 02:17:16.386 not the effort or down. 02:17:16.576 --> 02:17:17.066 Yeah. 02:17:17.066 --> 02:17:20.426 Or down or the walk down with the nice sea view. 02:17:21.706 --> 02:17:22.836 With the nice sea view. 02:17:23.066 --> 02:17:23.306 Yeah. 02:17:25.286 --> 02:17:25.586 All right. 02:17:25.586 --> 02:17:26.666 Well thank you Joel. 02:17:27.896 --> 02:17:28.676 , it's late for you. 02:17:29.126 --> 02:17:30.116 Thank you for staying up. 02:17:30.506 --> 02:17:32.306 Oh, it's been, it's been a pleasure. 02:17:32.396 --> 02:17:32.606 Yeah. 02:17:32.606 --> 02:17:34.016 We are on different time zones. 02:17:34.706 --> 02:17:41.546 , we will put links to Square peg down fine hand Za method and other resources, 02:17:41.726 --> 02:17:45.596 , from this plus how to contact Joel and get mentored by her and go and check 02:17:45.596 --> 02:17:47.816 her Amazing place out, , in the links. 02:17:48.506 --> 02:17:53.456 , until next time, we'll be seeing you in the equine assisted world, cuz 02:17:53.456 --> 02:17:55.436 it's where we hang out for our sin 02:17:56.186 --> 02:17:57.266 , Joel, thank you so much. 02:17:57.266 --> 02:17:59.636 It's been, it's been, thank you. 02:17:59.906 --> 02:18:00.396 Yeah. 02:18:01.076 --> 02:18:01.436 Okay. 02:18:02.186 --> 02:18:02.906 See you next time. 02:18:03.176 --> 02:18:03.596 Okay. 02:18:04.196 --> 02:18:04.406 Bye. 02:18:04.586 --> 02:18:05.006 Bye. 02:18:05.280 --> 02:18:06.390 thank you for joining us. 02:18:06.420 --> 02:18:08.250 We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. 02:18:08.488 --> 02:18:13.528 Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online 02:18:13.528 --> 02:18:18.718 courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. 02:18:19.426 --> 02:18:24.074 These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people 02:18:24.074 --> 02:18:26.084 dealing with trauma around the world. 02:18:26.411 --> 02:18:30.161 We also offer a horse training program and self-care program 02:18:30.161 --> 02:18:33.401 for riders on long ride home.com. 02:18:33.700 --> 02:18:37.750 These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that 02:18:37.750 --> 02:18:39.670 bring you and your horse joy. 02:18:40.206 --> 02:18:44.766 For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com. 02:18:45.096 --> 02:18:46.026 See you on the next show. 02:18:46.439 --> 02:18:49.129 And please remember to press, subscribe and share.