WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.659 Michele: Hey, everyone. 00:00:00.659 --> 00:00:02.219 Welcome back to software social. 00:00:02.550 --> 00:00:06.930 This week, we have part two of my conversation with 00:00:07.000 --> 00:00:09.090 Lucie Baratte of logology. 00:00:09.594 --> 00:00:11.904 I have a totally different. 00:00:12.684 --> 00:00:14.664 Kind of burning question for you. 00:00:15.469 --> 00:00:15.759 Lucie: Okay. 00:00:16.869 --> 00:00:17.159 Okay. 00:00:18.039 --> 00:00:18.669 Go ahead. 00:00:18.864 --> 00:00:21.912 Michele: So, you and Dagobert are married. 00:00:22.002 --> 00:00:26.812 Um, It sounds like you were married shortly before you had 00:00:26.817 --> 00:00:29.422 the idea to launch logology, if the idea came on your honeymoon. 00:00:29.422 --> 00:00:29.722 Right? 00:00:30.172 --> 00:00:37.432 So one of my favorite sort of sub-themes of Dagobert's memes, which 00:00:37.522 --> 00:00:40.812 by if, you haven't seen Dagobert's memes, we'll have to link to 00:00:40.812 --> 00:00:41.982 it from the show notes, but he just. 00:00:42.777 --> 00:00:46.537 Post lots of funny entrepreneurship memes, on Twitter, but one of my 00:00:47.007 --> 00:00:52.427 favorite sort of sub-themes in there is how your father is this like 00:00:52.517 --> 00:00:57.077 unspoken character, um, in his memes. 00:00:57.431 --> 00:01:00.551 There will be like ones, you know, all these ones about like, you know, 00:01:00.551 --> 00:01:04.751 how his father-in-law is like, oh, like you're not making any money. 00:01:04.751 --> 00:01:08.081 Like, why did you like quit your corporate job to make nothing like, 00:01:08.081 --> 00:01:12.131 you know, and basically just kind of ragging on him for, like, not being 00:01:12.136 --> 00:01:15.971 more successful or, kind of being an entrepreneur doing something more risky. 00:01:16.371 --> 00:01:18.441 I dunno if you've ever seen, you know, us this an American show, but like the 00:01:18.441 --> 00:01:21.801 big bang theory where Howard's mother is this character that, you know, and 00:01:21.801 --> 00:01:23.571 there's some theater name for this. 00:01:23.571 --> 00:01:26.521 So I know we have some theater fans listening, so I apologize. 00:01:26.521 --> 00:01:28.896 I don't remember the name of it, but you'll have to tell me of a 00:01:28.896 --> 00:01:35.196 character who is only seen off stage, but is very much like a character. 00:01:36.171 --> 00:01:37.251 In these memes. 00:01:37.491 --> 00:01:40.851 And I'm just curious how you feel about that. 00:01:40.851 --> 00:01:45.411 And also like, does your dad know that he's this character in. 00:01:45.546 --> 00:01:52.086 Lucie: Well, um, my dad doesn't know about it. 00:01:52.236 --> 00:01:57.306 I want to say yet because I'm afraid he will soon. 00:01:57.886 --> 00:02:02.346 Um, well, I'm sometimes anxious about this, but de Dagobert is very 00:02:02.351 --> 00:02:04.566 confident in saying, I don't care. 00:02:04.656 --> 00:02:05.556 He can look at it. 00:02:05.556 --> 00:02:09.096 I can explain myself and you know, it's true. 00:02:09.096 --> 00:02:13.456 And I was just like, yeah, you know, I know it's true, but, um, 00:02:13.516 --> 00:02:19.096 I'm afraid of the family of the consequences, you know, in my family. 00:02:19.411 --> 00:02:20.491 Michele: The dirty laundry and. 00:02:20.841 --> 00:02:22.161 Lucie: Well, I, I, yeah. 00:02:22.161 --> 00:02:25.341 I don't like, uh, conflict that much. 00:02:25.391 --> 00:02:31.914 But I have to say that, these meme about my father, brought 00:02:31.914 --> 00:02:34.464 me so much relief myself. 00:02:34.494 --> 00:02:40.884 I really needed to laugh about it with Dagobert be and with everyone on Twitter 00:02:41.124 --> 00:02:49.299 because it hasn't been a very, I would say easy relationship with my, father. 00:02:49.796 --> 00:02:52.216 I am the only, daughter. 00:02:52.696 --> 00:02:54.646 I have three little brothers. 00:02:55.149 --> 00:02:59.399 Sometimes I think I was, uh, raised like, uh, a boy. 00:02:59.896 --> 00:03:02.116 But yeah, it was hard. 00:03:02.336 --> 00:03:02.556 My. 00:03:02.909 --> 00:03:09.929 I have to admit to say also that there is a family history about creating his own 00:03:09.929 --> 00:03:17.086 business and being a founder, so it's a long story that was, uh, that began in 00:03:17.086 --> 00:03:23.050 the early my great, great grandfather. 00:03:24.027 --> 00:03:27.167 Everyone in my family was a founder, but was only men. 00:03:27.407 --> 00:03:29.687 Only men were founders. 00:03:29.747 --> 00:03:32.597 Only men were able to run a business. 00:03:33.137 --> 00:03:40.317 And the sad story is that, my grandfather lost the business that was launched by 00:03:40.437 --> 00:03:47.345 my grand grand father and maintained by my grandfather and my grandfather 00:03:47.345 --> 00:03:49.755 didn't, manage to maintain it. 00:03:50.055 --> 00:03:56.165 And it was something of, I think, a big disappointment and certainly 00:03:56.165 --> 00:03:58.835 something about shame for my grandfather. 00:03:59.465 --> 00:04:05.075 And so my father inherited of this dynamic and when he was in his 00:04:05.075 --> 00:04:11.779 30, he launched himself a business in the industry, but it fell. 00:04:12.259 --> 00:04:19.141 And I, I knew my father, I have to say quite depressed this last 00:04:19.141 --> 00:04:27.611 30, 30 years, he has now become a teacher in business creation. 00:04:28.111 --> 00:04:33.914 So yeah, he, well, I'm not completely at ease to say things 00:04:33.914 --> 00:04:36.127 about him, on the podcast. 00:04:36.127 --> 00:04:42.732 But since I feel like we are in a, casual conversation, I have to say that 00:04:42.852 --> 00:04:48.339 it's difficult for me to, deal with his, um, personal is, um, personality 00:04:48.909 --> 00:04:52.539 of, very negative and, and grumpy. 00:04:52.539 --> 00:04:58.509 And it's never enough, or, uh, it's always, uh, be careful, you're gonna 00:04:58.509 --> 00:05:00.519 fall, be careful you're gonna fail. 00:05:00.849 --> 00:05:05.289 And when you fail and say, uh, I told you so, so it's difficult 00:05:05.339 --> 00:05:08.369 to grow with this kind of energy. 00:05:08.669 --> 00:05:13.479 And I, just got, uh, 40 years old last year, so I had to deal 00:05:13.479 --> 00:05:16.676 with, how I'm gonna finally. 00:05:17.141 --> 00:05:24.214 Be get read of this image that is putting on me and that is putting on 00:05:24.214 --> 00:05:30.034 Dagobert and on our business, because he was kept on saying that it 00:05:30.034 --> 00:05:33.664 was not gonna work, that we should stop. 00:05:33.664 --> 00:05:38.874 And you know, when you are in the, hardest part of the journey, well, I hope it was 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:45.934 the hardest part of the journey and, but when you are in this very, dark times, 00:05:46.437 --> 00:05:53.187 the last thing you need is someone, who's supposed to love you saying you are 00:05:53.187 --> 00:05:59.757 not gonna make it and you are not able to do this and please stop now because 00:05:59.837 --> 00:06:01.517 you are making yourself ridiculous. 00:06:01.757 --> 00:06:02.027 Michele: Mm. 00:06:02.027 --> 00:06:02.057 He 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:11.145 Lucie: So it's so, uh, It's such a relief to be able to laugh about this. 00:06:11.649 --> 00:06:14.989 And for Dagobert, it's a bit different because, uh, well, 00:06:14.989 --> 00:06:16.399 Dagobert is younger than me. 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:20.079 He's eight years younger than me. 00:06:20.292 --> 00:06:25.378 It was not easy for him to stand, how it is the expression. 00:06:25.618 --> 00:06:26.038 Yeah. 00:06:26.038 --> 00:06:28.288 Stand in front of my father when you don't 00:06:28.383 --> 00:06:29.998 Michele: stand up to him almost. 00:06:29.998 --> 00:06:30.778 Lucie: stand up to him 00:06:30.963 --> 00:06:32.848 Michele: up for himself and for you. 00:06:32.998 --> 00:06:33.088 Yeah. 00:06:33.595 --> 00:06:36.655 Lucie: It doesn't have so much experience for example. 00:06:37.045 --> 00:06:46.805 And, all we had was the vision, the passion . the desire and the conviction 00:06:46.805 --> 00:06:53.695 that, well, the idea that we can make it for the moment, we don't know how 00:06:53.935 --> 00:07:00.895 we are not successful, but we know something is good in this and it can work. 00:07:01.465 --> 00:07:06.838 We just have to have more time to make it work well. 00:07:06.868 --> 00:07:09.178 So it was, very difficult last year. 00:07:09.178 --> 00:07:14.128 Uh, like we were not, um, making so much money. 00:07:14.525 --> 00:07:20.338 It's been already, three years, two year and a half working on logology. 00:07:20.728 --> 00:07:26.438 So we were quite disparate, not finding the good marketing solutions and 00:07:26.438 --> 00:07:29.843 marketing was not our first talent. 00:07:30.293 --> 00:07:36.798 I would say obviously like, like many, tech developer or designer, 00:07:36.858 --> 00:07:42.708 like me, the first thing you think is not marketing, but we had to learn. 00:07:43.205 --> 00:07:49.695 So Dagobert begin to make, uh, these memes and yes, it was interesting 00:07:49.695 --> 00:07:52.245 to see that we are not alone. 00:07:52.365 --> 00:07:57.405 And Dagobert, I think discovered that he was not alone in this. 00:07:57.908 --> 00:08:00.998 I would say male competition too, you know, because it's 00:08:00.998 --> 00:08:03.632 something about boys and men. 00:08:03.632 --> 00:08:08.882 Like it's not only my father, it's sometimes my brother, you know, when 00:08:08.882 --> 00:08:14.890 they are all together and uh, which one is making the most money, which 00:08:14.895 --> 00:08:20.319 one is the strongest and you know, I'm sorry, but I think this is kind 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:24.699 of childish, stupid, uh, men game. 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:30.515 And it's complicated because even if you don't want to be in the game, people 00:08:30.520 --> 00:08:33.545 will always, put you back on the ring. 00:08:33.725 --> 00:08:36.755 Is it the good word, the ring when you go boxing 00:08:36.995 --> 00:08:37.295 Michele: Yeah. 00:08:37.795 --> 00:08:42.295 Lucie: And so you have to find the right, uh, posture and it's not easy. 00:08:42.495 --> 00:08:47.095 When you take punches in your face to stay, clear that 00:08:47.605 --> 00:08:49.705 it is okay, I can do this. 00:08:49.705 --> 00:08:51.415 I don't have to be the ashamed of myself. 00:08:51.835 --> 00:08:55.435 And I can laugh about the situation because yeah, in a way, it's funny, if 00:08:55.435 --> 00:09:02.500 you think about this, like this, uh, grumpy character saying, find a job. 00:09:02.770 --> 00:09:06.740 Yeah, that was very funny because my, father on the other side, he really, 00:09:06.740 --> 00:09:10.020 I think, tried to help, help us. 00:09:10.140 --> 00:09:13.230 Like for him, it was something to help us. 00:09:13.380 --> 00:09:20.424 He gave us, yeah, some useful advices, some useful tips, but, one day it 00:09:20.424 --> 00:09:24.794 was very funny because, Dagobert was talking with him and he realized 00:09:24.904 --> 00:09:32.254 that the plan, the great idea of my father helping us was in the end to 00:09:32.254 --> 00:09:34.624 close the business and say goodbye. 00:09:34.624 --> 00:09:35.434 And I was like, what? 00:09:36.904 --> 00:09:38.194 , It's not the solution. 00:09:39.004 --> 00:09:41.014 Well, it's not the solution that I want. 00:09:41.224 --> 00:09:45.114 That is very interesting, but also that my father is someone. 00:09:45.714 --> 00:09:48.527 So, I would say yeah. 00:09:48.997 --> 00:09:54.947 Interest in businesses and entrepreneurship and who is, like I said, 00:09:55.337 --> 00:09:58.327 uh, teaching entrepreneurship to students. 00:09:58.987 --> 00:10:03.697 But on the other hand, it's someone who doesn't like to take risk. 00:10:04.057 --> 00:10:05.557 He hates risk. 00:10:05.947 --> 00:10:08.687 He hates, not to know what to do. 00:10:09.047 --> 00:10:13.127 So , it's not like someone going with the flow, you know, it's, not 00:10:13.132 --> 00:10:15.557 this kind of personality for him. 00:10:15.827 --> 00:10:21.934 So that's a very paradoxical, personality, which is interesting. 00:10:22.114 --> 00:10:29.644 It's about the variety of, uh, human, personality and it's uh, yeah, it's 00:10:29.644 --> 00:10:35.614 very good that we could laugh about this, but I'm still a little bit afraid. 00:10:35.614 --> 00:10:42.334 Like if my father watched this, so see this, or if my father 00:10:42.334 --> 00:10:44.974 listened to this podcast, hi dad. 00:10:45.364 --> 00:10:47.464 Um, no harm taken. 00:10:48.529 --> 00:10:49.009 Michele: Yeah. 00:10:49.714 --> 00:10:51.334 Lucie: Let's talk about this. 00:10:51.454 --> 00:10:56.164 I, tried to talk about this a few times, but it's very, um, difficult and it's 00:10:56.164 --> 00:11:00.124 also, I think a conflict of generation. 00:11:00.327 --> 00:11:03.434 My father comes from industry. 00:11:04.254 --> 00:11:11.274 He doesn't know about digital and apps and all this seems a 00:11:11.274 --> 00:11:13.944 little bit odd to him, obviously. 00:11:14.440 --> 00:11:19.110 And we are in a generation of, exploring all the possibilities 00:11:19.110 --> 00:11:23.850 of take nowadays, even with no code, you can do so many things. 00:11:23.850 --> 00:11:30.887 And, so yeah, it's two different worlds who can't get to 00:11:31.157 --> 00:11:32.897 understand really each other's. 00:11:33.397 --> 00:11:38.004 But now lately, it's easier with my dad. 00:11:38.500 --> 00:11:44.260 I think that now that we are making money a little bit enough to get 00:11:44.560 --> 00:11:49.030 one salary and, and it's growing and logology is growing and growing 00:11:49.035 --> 00:11:51.060 each month and it's so exciting. 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:57.115 And, uh, they go siding and, uh, Dagobert, has so many followers and, and a rich 00:11:57.115 --> 00:12:05.425 community, with people is sharing so much, My father is slowly changing his 00:12:05.425 --> 00:12:08.785 mind about technology slowly, slowly. 00:12:09.055 --> 00:12:11.665 Is still a little bit suspicious, like, Hmm. 00:12:12.085 --> 00:12:18.295 Maybe you'll fail at the end of the year, but you know, it's, it's a, I think, 00:12:18.295 --> 00:12:24.955 sorry, dad, but it's a dumb philosophy to think like this because yes, we'll 00:12:24.955 --> 00:12:32.425 fail obviously in something someday, like a failure is just part of living. 00:12:32.665 --> 00:12:39.722 And I think to me, with all this history family of, fails and men and 00:12:39.782 --> 00:12:47.642 patriarchy, I really don't want, I, I think I reject this philosophy because 00:12:47.647 --> 00:12:50.842 I can't see, I can't see failure. 00:12:51.332 --> 00:12:52.862 I think I can't accept it. 00:12:53.359 --> 00:12:58.325 I think when you accept failure, you are dying a little bit. 00:12:58.835 --> 00:13:03.505 You think like you are dying a little bit and it doesn't mean you can't, take 00:13:03.505 --> 00:13:06.355 failure and say, okay, I fell on this. 00:13:06.685 --> 00:13:06.985 Okay. 00:13:06.985 --> 00:13:10.962 This failed, but it's already something part of the way. 00:13:11.022 --> 00:13:11.352 Okay. 00:13:11.352 --> 00:13:16.432 I fell on this, but let's go on something else and keep on, running and 00:13:16.432 --> 00:13:21.822 keep on, uh, you know, like you are an athlete in your head, I love I'm. 00:13:21.827 --> 00:13:28.122 I'm not good at sports, but I'm fascinated by the mental preparation of the athletes. 00:13:28.622 --> 00:13:29.912 Well, you felt okay. 00:13:29.912 --> 00:13:34.412 You felt, but if you go on and you keep on running, well, 00:13:34.417 --> 00:13:35.822 you won't remember the fail. 00:13:35.827 --> 00:13:42.199 You would just take it, maybe do something about it, but not stay 00:13:42.199 --> 00:13:45.739 with it because when you stay with it, you can't take risk anymore. 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:47.959 You can't be alive anymore, or you can't, you. 00:13:48.510 --> 00:13:49.200 See this. 00:13:49.205 --> 00:13:55.624 And lately recently, my father and my mom, uh, said to me, well, look 00:13:55.624 --> 00:13:57.374 at the situation with logology. 00:13:57.644 --> 00:13:59.594 Do you really think you're gonna make money with this? 00:13:59.594 --> 00:14:05.894 Because look, last year you did this and you were wrong and we knew you were 00:14:05.894 --> 00:14:09.374 wrong and you still did the mistake. 00:14:09.870 --> 00:14:11.760 And I say, what can I say? 00:14:11.820 --> 00:14:12.780 I did a mistake. 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:14.070 We did a mistake. 00:14:14.280 --> 00:14:14.850 Yes. 00:14:14.910 --> 00:14:16.740 We lose a lot of money. 00:14:16.950 --> 00:14:22.110 We, uh, it was very expensive and not only money because money is not the 00:14:22.170 --> 00:14:27.750 end of the world is just a part of the problem, but it was very hard on us. 00:14:27.990 --> 00:14:31.710 And what can I say, I made this mistake and I'm gonna make 00:14:31.715 --> 00:14:33.060 other mistakes in the future. 00:14:33.420 --> 00:14:36.270 I have to say to you, other mistakes will be done. 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:42.870 and you've got to get prepared, but I think, and I believe, logology. 00:14:42.930 --> 00:14:44.880 I know we can do something. 00:14:44.880 --> 00:14:46.140 I know it can be great. 00:14:46.380 --> 00:14:52.250 And I have to do this because otherwise, why are we living for, if we don't, 00:14:52.250 --> 00:14:58.340 you know, follow the desire and just listen to can, maybe with it won't work. 00:14:58.340 --> 00:15:03.070 Cuz it's the same with relationships you have to, uh, would say, nourish 00:15:03.160 --> 00:15:07.470 the trust and it's nourishing the desire, nourishing the trust. 00:15:07.470 --> 00:15:11.590 Well, it doesn't mean you have to be, uh, completely, I don't know 00:15:11.590 --> 00:15:16.870 the, the world in English, but when you do, obviously dangerous thing. 00:15:17.020 --> 00:15:17.920 It's not that. 00:15:18.820 --> 00:15:22.737 But when people say, when one say listen to your heart, 00:15:23.234 --> 00:15:24.554 well, your heart is not wrong. 00:15:24.554 --> 00:15:27.044 When you listen to your heart, you know, you can trust something. 00:15:27.404 --> 00:15:31.464 There is here, there is a rock inside us. 00:15:32.015 --> 00:15:41.082 Where you can land and you were talking about road trips and what's beautiful 00:15:41.082 --> 00:15:47.129 when you are in a car and especially United States because wow, the landscapes 00:15:47.129 --> 00:15:49.199 are so beautiful and it is so big. 00:15:49.259 --> 00:15:50.699 It's very different from Europe. 00:15:50.729 --> 00:15:52.139 There is beautiful landscape in Europe. 00:15:52.139 --> 00:15:59.449 I'm not saying, but you can drive 10 hours in not, uh, seeing anyone. 00:15:59.899 --> 00:16:06.109 So that's an experience for Europeans like me yeah, for me, it's something. 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:10.689 And you know, it's like, you are watching the lab landscapes. 00:16:10.839 --> 00:16:18.382 You are watching mountains and country and, and yet you are not moving. 00:16:18.652 --> 00:16:21.915 Like the car is moving, but you are not moving. 00:16:21.915 --> 00:16:22.695 You stay still. 00:16:23.242 --> 00:16:27.472 So it's like meditation in a bit, like when you meditate and you can 00:16:27.832 --> 00:16:33.555 look at what's happening when you watch a movie and things are happening 00:16:33.615 --> 00:16:39.805 and you are still, uh, sit on your chair and you know what I mean? 00:16:39.805 --> 00:16:44.409 It's like the world is always movement. 00:16:44.905 --> 00:16:47.475 The thinking is always in movement. 00:16:48.029 --> 00:16:50.089 The emotions are always in movement. 00:16:50.579 --> 00:16:54.444 And in the same time, you are always still. 00:16:54.504 --> 00:16:56.486 You are always here ways here. 00:16:56.987 --> 00:16:59.177 Your heart is always inside of you. 00:16:59.677 --> 00:17:07.174 It's just, uh, like a gym it's not easy to do, but yeah, maybe because I'm 40 I 00:17:07.174 --> 00:17:11.634 have time to, to reflect on these and no. 00:17:11.774 --> 00:17:15.807 So you can't, um, you have to know, certainly you have to know when to 00:17:15.807 --> 00:17:21.837 stop and not to get sick of working too much because otherwise, the subject, 00:17:21.837 --> 00:17:27.167 the idea is not to forgot about yourself is about trust in your guts. 00:17:27.670 --> 00:17:29.040 So yeah, trust my guts. 00:17:29.050 --> 00:17:32.770 And I know I will make mistakes in the future, but I refuse 00:17:32.770 --> 00:17:35.530 to see it as a failure. 00:17:36.614 --> 00:17:40.207 Michele: Mean, I guess we, you know, sort of having empathy for your father 00:17:40.327 --> 00:17:44.912 here, you know, he carries so much shame. 00:17:45.122 --> 00:17:46.712 It sounds like right? 00:17:46.712 --> 00:17:51.032 The shame of watching his father's business collapse that was in 00:17:51.032 --> 00:17:52.602 the family for generations. 00:17:52.602 --> 00:17:57.455 I'm, sure that brought him tremendous, uh, shame or, or was put upon him 00:17:57.545 --> 00:18:01.115 and then him saying, no, I can do it. 00:18:01.505 --> 00:18:03.035 I'll have my own business. 00:18:03.035 --> 00:18:09.765 And then his own business failing and effectively retraumatizing him. 00:18:09.795 --> 00:18:15.875 Like he, he sounds traumatized by these business failures. 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:21.160 And when you are cloaked in shame, you don't have a process to, uh, 00:18:21.190 --> 00:18:22.990 really process those in a healthy way. 00:18:22.990 --> 00:18:26.020 When you don't feel like you can talk about the failure and say, yep, 00:18:26.020 --> 00:18:29.030 this was a failure and I'm going on to the next thing and that's okay. 00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:32.300 You know, but socially having that shame thrust upon you and then also 00:18:32.300 --> 00:18:34.610 internally thrusting it upon you. 00:18:34.610 --> 00:18:36.830 It, it also, you know, you described him as kind of 00:18:36.835 --> 00:18:38.385 depressed, like it's isolating. 00:18:38.445 --> 00:18:38.865 Right. 00:18:38.865 --> 00:18:43.725 And, you know, I love how, um, Brene brown says that the only feeling 00:18:43.725 --> 00:18:46.695 worse than shame is feeling alone. 00:18:47.191 --> 00:18:52.601 Um, and so often that feeling of shame leads people to feel alone, feel that 00:18:52.601 --> 00:18:55.031 they're the only ones in that situation. 00:18:55.031 --> 00:18:58.061 And then, when you have gone through a trauma, it's very normal to try 00:18:58.061 --> 00:19:02.971 to prevent anybody who love from going through that same trauma. 00:19:03.451 --> 00:19:10.095 And so he is sort of trying to protect you from that trauma, but in a way that 00:19:10.095 --> 00:19:12.165 is actually not healthy for you, right. 00:19:12.165 --> 00:19:16.365 That it does, does not see you for you and see you for your own potential and 00:19:16.365 --> 00:19:17.955 for your business, for its own potential. 00:19:18.005 --> 00:19:21.653 And also regard your business as, a stepping stone. 00:19:21.703 --> 00:19:26.220 It's, you know, a, growth mindset in so many ways is it shows how 00:19:26.220 --> 00:19:31.670 hard that is to step into from a position of unresolved trauma. 00:19:32.173 --> 00:19:35.793 And so I think we can kind of forgive people for not being able to take on 00:19:35.793 --> 00:19:40.383 that growth mindset when, when their own trauma is unresolved and they haven't 00:19:40.383 --> 00:19:42.333 had the opportunity to resolve it. 00:19:42.836 --> 00:19:47.041 But then I can, I can see for you, you know, curse breakers, like, 00:19:47.041 --> 00:19:49.951 I feel like you, you're kind of a generational curse breaker here. 00:19:50.761 --> 00:19:54.481 Um, and you have to have that chip on your shoulder. 00:19:54.985 --> 00:19:58.730 You really do cuz you have that vision for what you wanna do and, 00:19:58.735 --> 00:20:00.665 and that empathy for your customers. 00:20:00.775 --> 00:20:02.505 And I think that's, so important. 00:20:02.505 --> 00:20:05.975 But it's also, you know, I think this kind of situation you're in and I 00:20:05.975 --> 00:20:11.225 think is why Dagobert's memes resonate so widely too is because 00:20:11.715 --> 00:20:16.375 this kind of thinking that why would you leave a stable corporate job? 00:20:16.375 --> 00:20:20.815 Why would you leave your stable agency job to start this business where you 00:20:20.815 --> 00:20:23.485 didn't make any money for at least a year? 00:20:23.485 --> 00:20:27.791 Like, There's a perspective of, you know, especially in families where either there 00:20:28.211 --> 00:20:32.825 hasn't been entrepreneurship or there's a history of financial instability or 00:20:32.830 --> 00:20:36.245 not having enough money that, you know, when you get to the point of having 00:20:36.245 --> 00:20:38.361 a stable paycheck, like, that's it. 00:20:38.411 --> 00:20:39.251 You've achieved it. 00:20:39.301 --> 00:20:40.111 That's success. 00:20:40.111 --> 00:20:42.991 Why would you want anything else beyond that? 00:20:43.021 --> 00:20:43.321 Right. 00:20:43.321 --> 00:20:45.381 And, and this is a very common mindset. 00:20:45.411 --> 00:20:49.693 And for people who are starting their own businesses, getting over that 00:20:49.693 --> 00:20:55.083 hurdle of their upbringing and what it tells them is normal and expected. 00:20:55.243 --> 00:20:59.840 And what's safe for them, whether risk is safe for them, right? 00:20:59.940 --> 00:21:00.840 Those are very common. 00:21:00.890 --> 00:21:05.630 And I think that's why, you know, his memes and, the character of your 00:21:05.630 --> 00:21:10.040 father, which, you know, I guess if your father is listening, um, hello, Mr. 00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:17.196 Barratte, um, you know, um, it's not just him as a person that's resonating, right? 00:21:17.276 --> 00:21:20.600 It's what that character represents. 00:21:21.100 --> 00:21:24.820 And that represents that voice, whether it's in somebody's head or 00:21:24.820 --> 00:21:29.200 it is a family member, or it's their old boss or an old coworker, or a 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:33.940 friend who's saying like, who do you think you are to make a business work? 00:21:34.090 --> 00:21:39.120 And it takes a lot of resolve and passion and vision, which all of 00:21:39.120 --> 00:21:41.873 which I see in you to say, yep. 00:21:42.376 --> 00:21:46.816 I understand that, it's totally crazy, but I'm gonna do it. 00:21:47.296 --> 00:21:49.906 And if I fail, that's just my first step. 00:21:50.146 --> 00:21:51.076 There's gonna be others. 00:21:51.106 --> 00:21:52.366 And then people look at you and they're like, yeah. 00:21:52.396 --> 00:21:52.996 Okay, fine. 00:21:53.386 --> 00:21:53.746 Right. 00:21:53.746 --> 00:21:57.466 Like, but you gotta have that chip on your shoulder of, passion. 00:21:57.980 --> 00:21:58.910 Lucie: Thank you, Michelle. 00:21:59.150 --> 00:22:06.106 Um, yeah, and also I think, that's why another thing that resonates so much 00:22:06.106 --> 00:22:12.873 with everyone is that the generational, our parents or grandparents, they did 00:22:12.873 --> 00:22:17.493 so much to conform to, uh, society. 00:22:17.493 --> 00:22:22.023 I would say like, uh, what was the dream of my grandfather, my grandfather. 00:22:22.113 --> 00:22:26.973 He wanted to, well to run the business that he inherited from his father, 00:22:27.183 --> 00:22:34.623 but also just to have a stable job, to make money for his family, that, 00:22:34.673 --> 00:22:39.203 he could protect his family, that all his children will be healthy 00:22:39.413 --> 00:22:45.593 and they will have opportunity to also have a family make =money, be 00:22:45.593 --> 00:22:48.573 happy and, you know, buy a house. 00:22:48.733 --> 00:22:49.123 Michele: Yeah. 00:22:49.273 --> 00:22:50.948 Is he the world war II generation? 00:22:51.478 --> 00:22:51.838 Lucie: Yes, 00:22:51.838 --> 00:22:52.828 Michele: Yeah, exactly. 00:22:52.828 --> 00:22:58.588 They're very strong, understandable drive for stability, which is 00:22:59.338 --> 00:23:00.358 very understandable. 00:23:00.628 --> 00:23:00.718 Yeah. 00:23:01.223 --> 00:23:02.183 Lucie: Yes, completely. 00:23:02.183 --> 00:23:08.146 And, in my family, there were, uh, terrible, stories about war. 00:23:08.650 --> 00:23:14.956 They were traumatized by this because my great, grandfather was killed by, the 00:23:14.956 --> 00:23:18.496 Nazis in a terrible story in the village. 00:23:18.496 --> 00:23:25.860 Well, so all this leads to people want to have more stability and for the 00:23:25.865 --> 00:23:33.370 last, dozens of, decades around the last decade and, people want, to, just have. 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:37.730 I would say with the quotes, like normal, what they call 00:23:37.730 --> 00:23:39.800 normal life, what is normal life? 00:23:40.100 --> 00:23:46.787 Normal life is stability, comfort, and yeah, you could 00:23:46.787 --> 00:23:49.037 do every sacrifice to go there. 00:23:49.037 --> 00:23:56.027 And sometimes I'm wondering, if my father wanted so much to run a business, 00:23:56.147 --> 00:24:02.057 maybe would have been happier to say, okay, I, I am, uh, full-time employed 00:24:02.057 --> 00:24:04.217 in this company and it's okay for me. 00:24:04.247 --> 00:24:08.770 Maybe he had to fix something from the past. 00:24:08.860 --> 00:24:14.640 That was not his thing, but for many parents and grandparents, the 00:24:15.194 --> 00:24:23.547 image of success for us is not, taking risk, uh, making apps with no 00:24:23.547 --> 00:24:30.320 users or, uh, it's yeah, it's, um, it's another vision of the world. 00:24:30.320 --> 00:24:35.323 And I also think that my generation and the generation that is coming 00:24:35.323 --> 00:24:42.233 after my, after us, after me is not so keen about working at any cost. 00:24:42.233 --> 00:24:48.437 Like you don't want to be in the biggest company ever, or you don't 00:24:48.437 --> 00:24:54.147 think of your career in the same company, for years, like before you 00:24:54.147 --> 00:24:58.347 want to travel, you want to experiment, you want to know who you are. 00:24:58.347 --> 00:24:59.997 You want to find yourself. 00:25:00.357 --> 00:25:06.353 And I think all the thing that we are talking about, uh, self development 00:25:06.803 --> 00:25:09.947 and, uh, wellness is something that. 00:25:10.443 --> 00:25:17.870 My generation and the people younger are feeling deeply and we are not ready 00:25:18.020 --> 00:25:24.470 to make the same sacrifices that our parents made and our grandparents before. 00:25:25.418 --> 00:25:30.125 Michele: And I guess we have not, you know, and speaking of me personally, 00:25:30.125 --> 00:25:33.815 as an American, you know, you as a European, this also, this varies quite 00:25:33.815 --> 00:25:35.165 greatly from country to country, right? 00:25:35.165 --> 00:25:38.135 Or as a French person even, right because there's massive trauma 00:25:38.285 --> 00:25:40.095 going on within, Europe right now. 00:25:40.508 --> 00:25:46.885 We have not had those same debilitating sort of society 00:25:46.925 --> 00:25:49.842 wide traumas that they had. 00:25:50.295 --> 00:25:53.505 And that's just, that does us personally, we've had other traumas that we've 00:25:53.505 --> 00:25:57.975 gone through, um, in terms of, you know, recession and, financial crisis. 00:25:57.975 --> 00:26:01.092 I know that I mean, that really held me back going full time. 00:26:01.092 --> 00:26:05.642 Like, I mean, I was in my first week of college and I remember just, everybody 00:26:05.642 --> 00:26:09.222 I say, running around just, kind of like chickens with our heads cut off because 00:26:09.582 --> 00:26:11.472 everybody's college fund was gone. 00:26:11.982 --> 00:26:12.252 Right. 00:26:12.252 --> 00:26:14.082 And that's a very American experience of that. 00:26:14.082 --> 00:26:16.812 My husband, who was in Denmark, who was paid to go to college, 00:26:16.812 --> 00:26:18.342 like it was free, you know? 00:26:18.342 --> 00:26:21.832 I mean, he, wasn't really aware of it versus for us, you know, I mean, 00:26:21.832 --> 00:26:25.672 our parents had saved for, you know, 18, 20 years for us to go to college. 00:26:25.672 --> 00:26:29.048 And then all of a sudden the money is just gone. 00:26:29.538 --> 00:26:33.978 And you know, people's parents losing jobs and while we were in school 00:26:33.983 --> 00:26:37.832 and like not knowing if you could come back the next semester, right. 00:26:38.333 --> 00:26:42.323 And that very much influenced my own perspective on starting my 00:26:42.323 --> 00:26:45.063 own business because I was like, I ha you know, this is great. 00:26:45.063 --> 00:26:49.883 You know, I have a great, like full-time job that I love and we 00:26:49.883 --> 00:26:52.973 have this side business that's allowed me to pay down my debt again, 00:26:53.213 --> 00:26:55.043 very American perspective here. 00:26:55.043 --> 00:26:58.160 Like, I, I remember like getting to pay down all of my student loans, right? 00:26:58.165 --> 00:27:00.810 With money from geo geocodio that gave me the extra money 00:27:00.810 --> 00:27:01.950 to do that in the early days. 00:27:01.950 --> 00:27:03.947 And that was so liberating. 00:27:04.427 --> 00:27:06.287 But then it got to a point where it's like, well, I don't 00:27:06.287 --> 00:27:07.607 need anything beyond that. 00:27:07.657 --> 00:27:11.537 Paying off my student loans early, that's a huge mark of success, right? 00:27:11.542 --> 00:27:15.195 Cuz many people are paying student loans, their whole life for both, for 00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:16.665 themselves and for their children. 00:27:17.068 --> 00:27:19.672 And so it was really hard for me to wrap my head around, well, 00:27:19.702 --> 00:27:21.082 why would I do something else? 00:27:21.082 --> 00:27:23.482 And then eventually the business just got to a point where we had to go full 00:27:23.482 --> 00:27:25.242 time on it, in order to keep it going. 00:27:25.732 --> 00:27:29.429 But I think we all carry these sort of, you know, we have 00:27:29.429 --> 00:27:30.719 individual traumas right. 00:27:30.719 --> 00:27:34.449 In our own lives, but then there's also sort of there's generational traumas. 00:27:34.449 --> 00:27:40.709 There's there's social traumas that we carry that impact how we think 00:27:40.999 --> 00:27:44.554 about running our own businesses and, whether we are ready to do that. 00:27:44.554 --> 00:27:52.241 And whether that's a risk that we want to take in our own lives and how we react to 00:27:52.737 --> 00:27:57.677 kind of failure and, instability, I feel like it's something we don't really talk 00:27:57.677 --> 00:28:01.097 about enough as an entrepreneur community. 00:28:01.097 --> 00:28:04.841 You know, you kind of hear people make snippy comments about how, you 00:28:04.841 --> 00:28:07.721 know, entrepreneurs who get a ton of venture capital, like they're 00:28:07.721 --> 00:28:11.081 often from wealthy families because if they fail, it doesn't matter. 00:28:11.471 --> 00:28:11.861 Right. 00:28:11.891 --> 00:28:12.971 But I think there's something. 00:28:13.469 --> 00:28:13.799 First of all. 00:28:13.799 --> 00:28:14.849 I think there's something to that. 00:28:14.849 --> 00:28:17.399 The fact that knowing that if you fail you're, not gonna 00:28:17.399 --> 00:28:18.899 fall through the floor, right? 00:28:18.929 --> 00:28:20.519 There's gonna be something that catches you. 00:28:21.089 --> 00:28:24.737 But I also think we need to talk more about that, um, that feeling, 00:28:24.742 --> 00:28:29.072 that people, that face from their own families or their communities, that 00:28:29.575 --> 00:28:31.585 entrepreneurship isn't something for them. 00:28:31.585 --> 00:28:38.355 And that just choosing the stable option is the most responsible thing, which is, I 00:28:38.355 --> 00:28:43.695 think something I felt as a parent, I felt like it was the most responsible thing 00:28:44.125 --> 00:28:48.735 to keep running the business as a side business, even though it would've, I, I 00:28:48.735 --> 00:28:50.115 wrestled with this quite a bit, actually. 00:28:50.115 --> 00:28:52.425 It was whether I was like, well, I feel like it's the most responsible 00:28:52.430 --> 00:28:56.355 thing for me to work full time and do a side business, but I know it would 00:28:56.355 --> 00:28:59.715 make me happier to run a business. 00:29:00.345 --> 00:29:03.045 And, but I feel like it's the best thing for my family, for me to keep 00:29:03.495 --> 00:29:08.152 having a job and I remember a friend saying to me, like, you know, if you are 00:29:08.152 --> 00:29:11.302 happier, like you'll be a better parent. 00:29:11.307 --> 00:29:12.412 You'll be a better spouse. 00:29:12.412 --> 00:29:14.717 You'll be a happier person. 00:29:14.717 --> 00:29:16.663 That's worth something. 00:29:16.933 --> 00:29:19.303 And, you know, and then someone else was like, ever since I met you, 00:29:19.303 --> 00:29:20.443 you've wanted to run a business. 00:29:20.443 --> 00:29:24.780 And now you have the chance, like why, why , why are you even, you 00:29:24.780 --> 00:29:25.650 know, considering this, right. 00:29:25.800 --> 00:29:30.450 But like, we have those, the things that we carry, right. 00:29:31.275 --> 00:29:37.605 Lucie: Yeah, it's so completely normal and beautiful because as a mother, I can 00:29:37.605 --> 00:29:43.455 imagine, uh, much you want to protect your kids and what you were speaking. 00:29:43.455 --> 00:29:51.952 I was thinking of, we are speaking of the past and the trauma of the past, from your 00:29:51.952 --> 00:29:56.452 country or my country and the different family history or country history. 00:29:56.872 --> 00:30:02.707 But also I was thinking of the future and maybe also the perspective we 00:30:02.707 --> 00:30:04.687 have on the future is not the same. 00:30:05.247 --> 00:30:09.977 For example, nowadays we spoke about a lot of climate change. 00:30:10.377 --> 00:30:15.327 And I know this is a very anxious feeling for a lot of people and we can't 00:30:15.823 --> 00:30:23.023 respond to it everyone in the same way, like some will say, okay, so maybe 00:30:23.023 --> 00:30:27.703 we'll die in 10 years, so let's do whatever we want and others will say, 00:30:27.733 --> 00:30:30.907 okay, I wanna protect what I've got. 00:30:30.907 --> 00:30:32.527 I wanna protect my family first. 00:30:32.767 --> 00:30:35.767 And I'm not saying when you are an entrepreneur, you can protect your family. 00:30:35.767 --> 00:30:41.287 Obviously you are, I'm sure you're protecting your kids and doing your job. 00:30:41.347 --> 00:30:47.036 As an entrepreneur is something I, I agree with your, friends is something 00:30:47.156 --> 00:30:49.186 better, because you're happier. 00:30:49.486 --> 00:30:54.073 So it's good for the children, but it's a complicated question. 00:30:54.478 --> 00:30:55.288 Michele: A big topic. 00:30:55.810 --> 00:30:59.020 Lucie: Yeah, very interesting one too, but I'm not sure we 00:30:59.020 --> 00:31:00.880 have the time speak about it. 00:31:01.765 --> 00:31:02.935 Michele: I'm uh, 00:31:03.040 --> 00:31:04.450 Lucie: love to, I would love to 00:31:04.585 --> 00:31:05.395 Michele: I feel like we could just 00:31:05.530 --> 00:31:06.040 Lucie: with this. 00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:07.150 Yes. 00:31:07.210 --> 00:31:09.190 I would love to talk about you more. 00:31:09.380 --> 00:31:16.363 It's so good to have, this conversation with you and to share all this with you. 00:31:16.368 --> 00:31:18.168 I have so many question for you. 00:31:18.368 --> 00:31:23.191 Um, I would love to talk even talking about the subject of children, because we 00:31:23.191 --> 00:31:26.101 are both, women, and both entrepreneurs. 00:31:26.461 --> 00:31:30.201 And I think it's a subject we don't speak so much. 00:31:30.621 --> 00:31:35.628 Uh, and so it's very, relieved and comforting to speak with you 00:31:35.628 --> 00:31:39.288 today, all this sensitive subject. 00:31:39.378 --> 00:31:40.008 Michele: Yeah. 00:31:40.428 --> 00:31:41.538 Lucie: I dunno, it's a good word, but 00:31:41.628 --> 00:31:45.405 Michele: I'm uh, yeah, we'll have to have you on again, but I, yeah. 00:31:45.405 --> 00:31:50.771 I'm so grateful for your, openness and your, vulnerability, about this. 00:31:51.271 --> 00:31:54.751 Lucie: Thank you for Your welcome and, uh, kindness. 00:31:54.901 --> 00:31:55.831 Thank you very much. 00:31:56.206 --> 00:32:01.530 Michele: Well, Lucy Baratte, co-founder and art director of logology. 00:32:01.590 --> 00:32:05.070 Um, If people wanna find out more about logology or about 00:32:05.075 --> 00:32:06.720 you, where should they go? 00:32:07.221 --> 00:32:12.775 Lucie: They should go on logology.co doco or on the Twitter profile of 00:32:12.815 --> 00:32:15.845 logology and Instagram on Facebook. 00:32:16.341 --> 00:32:22.325 And they also can find me on Twitter on Instagram or Dagobert. 00:32:22.806 --> 00:32:23.286 Michele: Of course. 00:32:23.286 --> 00:32:23.856 Lucie: Yeah, of course. 00:32:24.501 --> 00:32:24.771 Michele: All right. 00:32:24.771 --> 00:32:26.031 Well, thank you. 00:32:26.226 --> 00:32:27.306 Lucie: To see, um, to 00:32:27.441 --> 00:32:28.011 Michele: The memes. 00:32:28.011 --> 00:32:28.491 I will, I 00:32:28.686 --> 00:32:29.466 Lucie: The memes. 00:32:30.066 --> 00:32:30.366 Yeah. 00:32:30.591 --> 00:32:30.951 Michele: Okay. 00:32:31.341 --> 00:32:31.581 Thank 00:32:31.626 --> 00:32:33.066 Lucie: thank you very much. 00:32:33.156 --> 00:32:34.566 Thank you so much, Michelle. 00:32:34.866 --> 00:32:38.316 It was a pleasure to talk to you today. 00:32:38.661 --> 00:32:39.141 Michele: Likewise. 00:32:39.276 --> 00:32:39.726 Lucie: much. 00:32:40.227 --> 00:32:43.977 Michele: Thanks again to Lucy for joining me, I think, as you can tell, 00:32:44.337 --> 00:32:47.367 um, I really enjoyed talking to her and felt like we could have just 00:32:47.367 --> 00:32:51.877 gone on forever and, really felt like I had to cut off the conversation. 00:32:52.277 --> 00:32:57.227 Before we go today, I want to give a shout out to all of our listeners, who've become 00:32:57.287 --> 00:32:59.327 software socialite and support our show. 00:32:59.837 --> 00:33:02.897 You can become a supporter for $10 a month or a hundred dollars a year 00:33:02.897 --> 00:33:05.807 at software social.dev/supporters. 00:33:06.287 --> 00:33:10.337 Chris from chipper CI, the daringly handsome Kevin Griffin, Mike 00:33:10.342 --> 00:33:15.177 from gently used domains, Dave from recut, max of online or not, 00:33:15.677 --> 00:33:19.547 Stefan from talk to Stefan, Brendan Andre of bright bits, 00:33:19.667 --> 00:33:24.617 Aaron from Tuple, Alex Hillman from the tiny MBA, Ramy from memo.fm, 00:33:24.857 --> 00:33:26.717 Jane and Benedikt from user list, 00:33:26.957 --> 00:33:31.757 Kendall Morgan, Ruben Gamiz of signwell, Corey Haynes of swipewell, 00:33:31.757 --> 00:33:37.127 Mike Wade of crowd sentry, Nate Ritter of room steals, and 00:33:37.127 --> 00:33:38.897 anna maste of subscribed sense, 00:33:39.197 --> 00:33:40.577 Geoff Roberts from outseta, 00:33:41.307 --> 00:33:47.217 Justin Jackson from mega maker, Jack Ellis and Paul Jarvis from fathom analytics, 00:33:47.547 --> 00:33:52.557 Matthew from appointment reminder, Andrew Culver at bullet train, John 00:33:52.557 --> 00:33:58.437 Kostor, Alex of Corso systems, Richard from stunning, Josh, the annoyingly 00:33:58.437 --> 00:34:05.097 pragmatic founder, Ben from consent kit, John from credo and editor ninja, cam 00:34:05.097 --> 00:34:08.277 Sloan, Michael Koper of Nusii proposals, 00:34:08.627 --> 00:34:15.347 Chris from URL box, Caeli of Tosslet, Greg park from trait lab, Adam from 00:34:15.347 --> 00:34:22.727 rails autoscale, Lana and Alex from recapsy, Joe Masilotti of railsdev.com, 00:34:23.957 --> 00:34:29.597 Avid Kahl, James Sowers from castaway.fm, Nathan of develop your 00:34:30.107 --> 00:34:32.957 UX, Jessica Malnik, Damian Moore, 00:34:33.797 --> 00:34:38.987 Audio audit podcast checker, and Eldon from nodlestudios. 00:34:39.491 --> 00:34:40.571 Thank you for listening.