WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:11.906 --> 00:00:17.966 jethro_2_04-23-2025_143737: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:18.476 --> 00:00:19.976 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:19.976 --> 00:00:22.676 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:35.100 --> 00:00:37.350 Jethro D. Jones: Welcome to Transformative Principal. 00:00:37.350 --> 00:00:40.470 I am so excited to have Craig Randall back on the program. 00:00:40.470 --> 00:00:45.870 He was originally on the show in episode, what was that, 3 86, 00:00:45.987 --> 00:00:47.007 Craig Randall: Exactly. 00:00:47.430 --> 00:00:47.460 Jethro D. Jones: Uh. 00:00:47.517 --> 00:00:48.237 Craig Randall: I have no idea. 00:00:48.870 --> 00:00:53.250 Jethro D. Jones: So talked about, uh, trust-based observations. 00:00:53.250 --> 00:00:55.955 His book, uh, way back then that was over. 00:00:56.625 --> 00:00:57.675 Four years ago. 00:00:57.825 --> 00:01:00.495 Uh, and so a lot has happened since then. 00:01:00.855 --> 00:01:07.485 Um, he now has his own podcast called 20 Minutes of Teaching Brilliance on the Road with Trust-based Observations. 00:01:07.485 --> 00:01:16.695 And what's really cool about this podcast is he basically will watch a lesson, a 20 minute lesson, see somebody doing something cool, and then record a podcast interview with him about it. 00:01:16.905 --> 00:01:19.425 Anything else you wanna say about that podcast? 00:01:19.887 --> 00:01:22.737 Craig Randall: Uh, well, I, I wanna tell you how it started, actually. 00:01:22.737 --> 00:01:23.037 I is. 00:01:23.037 --> 00:01:23.487 So, 00:01:23.685 --> 00:01:24.735 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, let's do 00:01:24.747 --> 00:01:29.517 Craig Randall: as maybe, you know, when you finish writing a book, everyone's like, what are you gonna write about next? 00:01:29.517 --> 00:01:30.657 When are you gonna write about next? 00:01:30.657 --> 00:01:30.867 And then. 00:01:31.482 --> 00:01:36.582 When you haven't written a book, you don't know how hard it is, but once you've written a book, you're like, never. 00:01:36.852 --> 00:01:41.922 But eventually you kind of get over that and, and so I'm on the road. 00:01:42.732 --> 00:01:49.602 A lot of weeks of the year, and I'm pretty sure I observe more teachers through the lens of teacher observation than any human being on earth. 00:01:49.662 --> 00:01:50.712 That's not hyperbole. 00:01:50.712 --> 00:02:02.952 I really think that that's true and the 20 minute observations, as you know, and they're unannounced and of course you see the whole gamut from stuff that's not so great to stuff That's really amazing and. 00:02:03.732 --> 00:02:14.172 I was in the UK, gosh, almost two years ago, and I was at this school and it was a fifth grade math class, and the teacher had all the kids on the floor and they all had their mini whiteboards. 00:02:14.172 --> 00:02:23.502 So they're all doing the problems with her, which of course everyone actively involved is great, and they're going over the problems and the different ways kids were able to solve it and having kids come up to the board. 00:02:24.042 --> 00:02:30.852 And so she does this with a couple of kids with the first problem, and then she says, so if you failed. 00:02:31.587 --> 00:02:35.397 Tell me how you failed and I cringed, like thinking failed. 00:02:35.787 --> 00:02:37.527 But then the most amazing thing happened. 00:02:37.947 --> 00:02:41.637 All the kids started saying, oh, oh, can I tell you how I failed? 00:02:41.727 --> 00:02:43.347 Can I tell you how I failed? 00:02:43.527 --> 00:02:44.877 And they were so excited. 00:02:45.207 --> 00:02:50.217 And instantly I knew something magical was going on because she had created failures opportunity. 00:02:50.937 --> 00:02:59.067 And so we ended up having the reflective conversation afterwards and she believed in this so much that she had really trained the whole school and the whole school's culture was about that. 00:02:59.487 --> 00:03:02.217 And then I thought, uh, wow. 00:03:02.217 --> 00:03:08.427 I know it could be a book where you could have a yearly series and these teachers write about it and I just edit it. 00:03:08.757 --> 00:03:15.237 And then we have a mutual friend, Mike Caldwell, who is great guy, and he comes with great ideas, but they always add extra work. 00:03:15.237 --> 00:03:16.677 So I kind of love and hate Mike at the. 00:03:18.687 --> 00:03:22.287 So I tell him the idea and he says, Craig, no, no, no. 00:03:22.347 --> 00:03:24.327 You need to make it into a podcast. 00:03:24.657 --> 00:03:26.157 So that's how it came to be. 00:03:26.157 --> 00:03:32.157 20 minutes of Teaching Brilliance and we're on the road and I'll see 20 minutes where I'm like, oh my gosh, that's so amazing. 00:03:32.517 --> 00:03:37.707 And so we get on and we kind of riff like you and I are doing now for 30 minutes about what they're doing. 00:03:37.707 --> 00:03:38.397 That's really cool. 00:03:38.397 --> 00:03:42.117 Hoping that other teachers can learn from it and grow their own practice. 00:03:43.650 --> 00:03:45.720 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, and, and people definitely can. 00:03:45.720 --> 00:03:53.700 The podcast is doing well, and it is, it is valuable, and because I'm in this unique position where I get to see. 00:03:54.060 --> 00:04:00.540 Uh, many different podcasts because of the B Podcast Network, and I get to see how, uh, different shows are doing. 00:04:00.540 --> 00:04:06.840 It's been really interesting to see where different shows are performing compared to others. 00:04:06.870 --> 00:04:23.610 And shows like yours, like Gene Tab, Brunetti's, uh, better teaching only stuff that works are doing really well because people want to improve and are looking for, more ways to support their own growth and development. 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:29.070 And that is really amazing and exciting when that happens. 00:04:29.070 --> 00:04:30.300 And you get to see that. 00:04:31.140 --> 00:04:33.360 Don't worry, we can edit out that dog barking. 00:04:33.372 --> 00:04:34.917 Craig Randall: Sorry, I'm going upstairs now. 00:04:36.570 --> 00:04:37.260 Jethro D. Jones: It's all good. 00:04:37.710 --> 00:04:42.330 Um, so you, you mentioned the, the, the hurdle of. 00:04:43.065 --> 00:04:48.525 writing and you have a book and you're like, man, I don't ever wanna do that again, even though I know I can do it. 00:04:48.705 --> 00:04:59.985 So I've written two books and um, and I'm now working on my dissertation and I'm feeling that same big mountain in front of me that I know I gotta get done. 00:05:00.225 --> 00:05:01.305 I know that I can do it. 00:05:02.025 --> 00:05:07.245 But it's still overwhelming and frustrating to think like, Ugh, when am I gonna find the time? 00:05:07.245 --> 00:05:08.415 How am I gonna make this work? 00:05:08.685 --> 00:05:09.975 But you just gotta do it. 00:05:09.975 --> 00:05:15.375 And so, uh, any advice for me on that front while I'm thinking about that piece? 00:05:17.457 --> 00:05:19.037 Craig Randall: Man riding is hard. 00:05:19.507 --> 00:05:22.332 Like even, even when you know it, even when it's like. 00:05:23.112 --> 00:05:28.662 I somehow accidentally developed trust-based observations and so like it was just taking it from my mind to paper. 00:05:28.662 --> 00:05:38.562 But man, it's hard, but especially when you're like putting date, like with your dissertation, you have to combine research into your writing in a smooth way that's a little more academic than my writing. 00:05:38.832 --> 00:05:43.902 But I think combining your own words with research is hard. 00:05:44.172 --> 00:05:45.072 It's super hard. 00:05:45.072 --> 00:05:46.932 And so I'm not sure it's about. 00:05:49.302 --> 00:05:50.772 It's doing it every day. 00:05:51.087 --> 00:06:11.862 And, and, and it's like when I wrote the trust based observations, it was, I went to a coffee shop Monday through Friday and I went, I, I couldn't write eight hours a day, but I would go from about noon to five, noon to six, and I went every and some days I'd get a paragraph, and some days I'd get three pages and, and, and, and, but I went every day. 00:06:11.967 --> 00:06:14.472 And, and I really, really think that. 00:06:15.207 --> 00:06:28.857 That really factor and something that I've discovered recently, and I think I've always known it, but like we process when we're into sleep, our, our mind is resetting and it processes and do you ever wake up at three or four and you've got that idea? 00:06:29.670 --> 00:06:30.180 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:06:30.297 --> 00:06:30.717 Craig Randall: get that. 00:06:30.807 --> 00:06:37.407 And I've had that and oh my God, I can't tell you how many times, probably thousands of times in my life I'm like, oh, I'll remember that when I wake up. 00:06:38.157 --> 00:06:38.637 Gone. 00:06:38.937 --> 00:06:55.167 And so one of the things that I've gotten way, way better at is now I, if it's three 30 or sometimes I can just speak it into my phone real quick and remember it, but then sometimes the, the motor just starts spinning and now I've just. 00:06:55.707 --> 00:07:06.447 Get up and now I've been trying to find a way I'm not as great as as I want, but like I find like five to 8:00 AM for me and it's just maybe my own bio clock. 00:07:06.507 --> 00:07:10.137 Like I find that is when I'm most on fire. 00:07:11.247 --> 00:07:13.077 Um, yeah. 00:07:13.740 --> 00:07:14.070 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:07:14.100 --> 00:07:29.520 So I, I'm glad you mentioned that because one of the things that I've done, uh, so I'll tell you how I wrote my other books, uh, which is not typical, but, but it worked for me is, um, I've had many times where the idea comes and I wake up at. 00:07:29.985 --> 00:07:35.445 One or two or three in the morning, and then I just go start writing and my wife is like, what happened? 00:07:35.445 --> 00:07:36.135 Where'd you go? 00:07:37.095 --> 00:07:38.835 I just had this thing and I needed 00:07:38.907 --> 00:07:40.332 Craig Randall: The source was driving me. 00:07:40.815 --> 00:07:41.535 Jethro D. Jones: that's right. 00:07:41.775 --> 00:07:47.835 So the, the way that I wrote my books is that I condensed it down into these. 00:07:48.210 --> 00:07:59.820 Weekend retreats where I would spend, uh, five or six days, uh, broken up and I would crank out 10 to 20,000 words per day. 00:07:59.820 --> 00:08:04.380 And I just, like, I just said, this is all I'm doing, and I would just do it. 00:08:04.380 --> 00:08:11.010 And, and on my first book, I really just, I had the ideas and I'd been thinking about a long time, my second book. 00:08:11.475 --> 00:08:18.405 I spent a lot of time planning and preparing, so I had like outlines of what I knew I needed to write about and different points that I wanted to hit. 00:08:18.675 --> 00:08:27.915 And then I just banged it out and I, I found a journal the other day where I wrote down what my goals were for my writing and it was, it was really fascinating 'cause I was like. 00:08:28.185 --> 00:08:32.085 My goal was to write 10,000 words today, and I got 11,000 00:08:32.337 --> 00:08:33.332 Craig Randall: You kidding me? 00:08:33.975 --> 00:08:34.935 Jethro D. Jones: yeah, it was crazy. 00:08:34.935 --> 00:08:40.635 And I was all by myself and, and at one point the internet went out, so I couldn't do anything else. 00:08:40.635 --> 00:08:41.745 I had no distractions. 00:08:42.015 --> 00:08:43.215 It was the best thing ever. 00:08:44.535 --> 00:08:44.835 Yes. 00:08:46.245 --> 00:08:46.845 Yeah. 00:08:46.905 --> 00:08:47.805 Oh, it was so good. 00:08:48.542 --> 00:08:48.762 Craig Randall: Wow. 00:08:48.945 --> 00:08:49.485 Jethro D. Jones: anyway, 00:08:49.677 --> 00:08:54.057 Craig Randall: Well then you know what the point too is though, is that like everyone's process is gonna be a little bit different, 00:08:54.795 --> 00:08:55.545 Jethro D. Jones: Exactly. 00:08:55.587 --> 00:09:00.717 Craig Randall: do know this, if you don't do something or record that idea in the middle of the night, you'll lose it. 00:09:01.107 --> 00:09:05.487 And, and so often it's gold and sometimes it's lost gold. 00:09:05.692 --> 00:09:10.587 And, and so that one, I know for sure whatever your style is, but man writing is, 00:09:10.760 --> 00:09:11.050 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:09:11.067 --> 00:09:13.287 Craig Randall: I mean, I love it when you're in that zone and you like. 00:09:14.307 --> 00:09:23.097 All of a sudden you look up and it's been 40 minutes and sometimes it's just been refining one paragraph, but you are like so in it like the rest of the world didn't even exist. 00:09:23.097 --> 00:09:27.777 Like that's kind of a cool thing that that flow state or whatever that they talk about. 00:09:27.777 --> 00:09:28.077 Yeah, 00:09:28.185 --> 00:09:29.475 Jethro D. Jones: It, it really is. 00:09:30.746 --> 00:09:35.816 so let's talk a little bit about how trust-based observations has evolved 00:09:35.958 --> 00:09:36.518 Craig Randall: man. 00:09:37.106 --> 00:09:42.686 Jethro D. Jones: Because you wrote the book, you got it out there, and now you've spent the last four years talking about it all the 00:09:42.773 --> 00:09:43.373 Craig Randall: Training. 00:09:43.466 --> 00:09:51.776 Jethro D. Jones: implementing it, training, training other people to train others, like, so what, what have been the big changes, the evolution that you've seen? 00:09:51.833 --> 00:09:53.993 Craig Randall: So look, it was before it was. 00:09:54.533 --> 00:10:00.503 I learned what I learned from, from my professor at Western Washington University, my mentor, my dear friend, Warren Owler. 00:10:00.508 --> 00:10:02.003 And, and it evolved from that. 00:10:02.183 --> 00:10:04.613 Not even necessarily, not even necessarily. 00:10:04.823 --> 00:10:06.623 I didn't know I was creating anything. 00:10:06.653 --> 00:10:11.003 It just, I was just working on it and just kept changing and growing and changing and growing. 00:10:11.358 --> 00:10:15.863 And, and then about 16, 17, somebody said, you need to protect your work. 00:10:15.863 --> 00:10:19.013 And that's when I finally started to realize, oh, maybe there was something more here. 00:10:19.013 --> 00:10:20.663 And it evolved and evolved and evolved. 00:10:21.998 --> 00:10:34.118 So before though, it was just me practicing it with my teachers one or two times I had an assistant principal with me, so I was just, all I had was my own schema. 00:10:34.418 --> 00:10:44.768 And so then you get out there every week and your training school leaders on it, training principals on it, and you learn things every single week like. 00:10:45.308 --> 00:10:59.198 I always say like one of the things with trust-based observations is like, I wanna contrast maybe a coaching model where when you're doing an instructional coaching model, oftentimes when that coach is working with the teacher, it's like, what do you wanna work on? 00:11:00.128 --> 00:11:05.168 And I think what we really talk about is that we all have blind spots though. 00:11:05.228 --> 00:11:07.298 So if we leave it just to that model. 00:11:07.883 --> 00:11:11.753 They might not choose the thing that could have the biggest impact on improved teaching and learning. 00:11:12.143 --> 00:11:24.473 And so one of the things that I'm able to say, which I think adds more value to the importance of that is that every single week, every single week when I'm training, I learn something new that modifies. 00:11:24.488 --> 00:11:26.678 Trust-based observations in a little way. 00:11:26.918 --> 00:11:34.808 Somebody like Mike Caldwell, our, our, our, our good friend, he, he, when we trained him, we have an area of the form called working memory. 00:11:34.808 --> 00:11:39.638 It's about cognitive load capacity and we timestamp it and then we would list what the activity was. 00:11:39.638 --> 00:11:42.098 And there's a timestamp column on the right hand side. 00:11:42.158 --> 00:11:50.708 And then you list with the little reflection of processing activity is we also have something called the learning principles pyramid, which is a variant of that old fashioned. 00:11:51.428 --> 00:11:56.048 Percentage that you retain of information, but we'd modernize it to be much more accurate. 00:11:56.258 --> 00:12:01.388 And Mike said, Craig, why don't you put those eight areas that are on that up in that section too. 00:12:01.388 --> 00:12:14.533 So you're labeling what kind of work is going on in there and like, this is just one example, but adding that section to that has made an enormous difference because now what we do at the pyramid, at the bottom. 00:12:15.338 --> 00:12:20.558 We cumulatively add the activities, the ones that are the active, we call it the power trio. 00:12:20.678 --> 00:12:26.588 And if you spend more than half the time, 11 or more minutes in that, 'cause research shows when you're doing active. 00:12:26.903 --> 00:12:32.303 Learning, you're gonna retain and learn the most and learn with most depth when it's 11 or more. 00:12:32.303 --> 00:12:36.773 Rewrite the total minutes to highlight, look, you've spent this much time outta 20 minutes in there. 00:12:37.073 --> 00:12:40.793 Like that idea never would've happened on my own. 00:12:40.913 --> 00:12:41.993 And I'm the guy that developed it. 00:12:41.993 --> 00:12:43.223 I have blind spots, right? 00:12:43.343 --> 00:12:45.143 So I learn every week with blind spots. 00:12:45.383 --> 00:12:48.293 And it makes trust-based observation so much better. 00:12:48.788 --> 00:12:51.233 And, and like that's just one example. 00:12:51.966 --> 00:12:56.616 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, so I, I think that that's a really good example because it's, it's evolving. 00:12:57.336 --> 00:13:03.816 The form and the process also, but doesn't necessarily require new training 00:13:04.163 --> 00:13:05.063 Craig Randall: Not that part. 00:13:05.213 --> 00:13:10.733 I mean, I'll, I'll send updated versions of the form and, and I'll explain it or say we can jump on a zoom and, and, and do it. 00:13:10.733 --> 00:13:12.863 That yeah, that part doesn't cause new training at all. 00:13:13.673 --> 00:13:19.613 But like, but here's another thing that's evolved is so like the training is super intent. 00:13:19.643 --> 00:13:20.933 It's 40 hours. 00:13:21.488 --> 00:13:32.108 Onsite at your school, practicing with your teachers 12 to 14 times over the course of the week, and it's in line with research on mastery that says you need to practice something six or seven times to really master it. 00:13:32.288 --> 00:13:35.678 It's because we want it to be so when we leave, you're only gonna get better at it. 00:13:35.708 --> 00:13:40.478 Jim Knight recently put out something on, on workshops and and professional development. 00:13:40.478 --> 00:13:44.708 He said like these one-off things like this, that we go to a conference in an hour like. 00:13:44.953 --> 00:13:47.743 We oftentimes don't remember and it needs to be continuing. 00:13:47.743 --> 00:13:51.223 And so because we feel like we're living that, we're really proud of that. 00:13:51.973 --> 00:13:56.683 But at the end of the week, we talk about the other pieces that aren't the actual observation piece. 00:13:56.863 --> 00:13:58.933 So there's two big pieces with that. 00:13:58.963 --> 00:14:01.273 There's more than that, but two that we talk about. 00:14:01.273 --> 00:14:02.803 One is in year two. 00:14:03.093 --> 00:14:14.853 For the nine areas of pedagogy, we tap into our in-house experts to have monthly professional development led by in-house experts, and the teachers get to choose one of those areas to work towards mastering in that year. 00:14:14.853 --> 00:14:16.263 So we're giving them support in that. 00:14:16.473 --> 00:14:18.363 We ask a follow-up question about that. 00:14:18.393 --> 00:14:22.053 And the other area is we don't offer suggestions. 00:14:22.053 --> 00:14:33.063 There's exceptions like with new teachers who are struggling with professional, with classroom management, but we don't offer suggestions until the fourth visit because we haven't built up enough trust. 00:14:33.278 --> 00:14:39.398 And it takes time to fill that, that jar with Trus marbles and we find the fourth time works. 00:14:39.428 --> 00:14:42.218 And so we talk about that on Friday afternoons. 00:14:43.238 --> 00:14:58.628 But they're, so what, what I didn't realize at first is they're so overloaded with what I've been doing, what we've been doing together for the 40 weeks, they're really doing a five credit semester class in, in, in, in, in one week, is that they were not really implementing that. 00:14:59.153 --> 00:15:01.523 Asking permission to offer a suggestion piece. 00:15:01.553 --> 00:15:03.503 'cause that's the other piece on the fourth visit. 00:15:03.623 --> 00:15:05.993 And we do it with that piece. 00:15:05.993 --> 00:15:16.373 I'm just gonna tell a little bit more about that because I think it's important is, is like oftentimes as principles, we will say, Hey, I want you to get better at that, and just leave it like that. 00:15:16.553 --> 00:15:21.773 Or we'll say, and here's an article, or maybe best case scenario, I'll send you to a workshop. 00:15:22.868 --> 00:15:31.178 But like what I always say to that is like there's a huge hypocrisy between what we expect teachers to do as students, and we do as principals with leaders, and so. 00:15:32.061 --> 00:15:33.381 Jethro D. Jones: Yes, I talk about that all the 00:15:33.623 --> 00:15:34.313 Craig Randall: Exactly. 00:15:34.403 --> 00:15:35.993 So we want it to be close to the same. 00:15:35.993 --> 00:15:42.983 And the example I always use is we would never say to a third grader, Hey, Jethro, those multiplication facts need work. 00:15:43.553 --> 00:15:45.833 Here's a, here's a multiplication table. 00:15:46.643 --> 00:15:47.663 I'll see you in a month. 00:15:47.753 --> 00:15:47.933 Right? 00:15:47.933 --> 00:15:50.723 We would never do that, but that's kind of what we tend to do. 00:15:51.143 --> 00:15:57.803 And so now what we do, our lens is always, which one of those nine areas would have the biggest impact on improved teaching and learning? 00:15:57.803 --> 00:15:59.303 If I helped that teacher in that area. 00:16:00.173 --> 00:16:05.003 So let's just say it was that working memory section where they wanted to add the reflection and processing activities. 00:16:05.333 --> 00:16:11.633 So we always say we want you to ask permission to offer suggestions because when you ask, they're not being told and they're way more receptive. 00:16:11.963 --> 00:16:13.133 But then we'll open up. 00:16:13.253 --> 00:16:21.293 One of the things about our observation form, Jethro and anybody can go to the website and and click to get that, by the way, is that it has hyperlinks. 00:16:21.953 --> 00:16:25.913 For each one of the nine areas that has actionable articles and book recommendations. 00:16:26.063 --> 00:16:32.843 So we pick out an article that maybe had, there's one article that has 78 different activities that could be these reflection processing activities. 00:16:33.083 --> 00:16:44.678 And then we're gonna say to the teacher, after we ask permission to work on this area, and they always say yes, say like, if you're gonna choose six or eight of these that really resonate with you, that you could do as the two minute processing activities with your kids, what would they be? 00:16:45.728 --> 00:16:53.948 And then we're gonna say, okay, so if you were gonna just practice this with one of your sections or lessons or preps, which one would it be? 00:16:53.978 --> 00:16:55.178 Let's pull up that lesson. 00:16:55.688 --> 00:16:56.078 Okay. 00:16:56.198 --> 00:16:59.588 So let's say there're 10th graders in their cognitive load capacities, 10 minutes. 00:16:59.858 --> 00:17:01.748 Where do you think there's natural breaks in there? 00:17:01.753 --> 00:17:01.763 Where? 00:17:01.763 --> 00:17:05.018 Where, where we could add those reflection processing activities. 00:17:05.138 --> 00:17:09.338 So at these six or eight that you highlighted, which one would you wanna do here? 00:17:09.338 --> 00:17:10.178 Which one there? 00:17:10.448 --> 00:17:11.108 And then we say. 00:17:12.173 --> 00:17:12.653 Great. 00:17:12.713 --> 00:17:14.453 So let's do this tomorrow. 00:17:14.453 --> 00:17:15.653 There's four ways we can do it. 00:17:15.653 --> 00:17:16.823 One, I can model it. 00:17:16.913 --> 00:17:18.173 Two, we can co-teach it. 00:17:18.413 --> 00:17:26.633 Three, you can do it, and I can give you feedback, either directed feedback in the moment or wait till afterwards or four, you can do it on your own and tell me about it later. 00:17:26.633 --> 00:17:30.683 But if you do it on your own and it doesn't go the way you want sometimes called that implementation dip. 00:17:30.843 --> 00:17:33.153 You gotta come get me 'cause you know I'm gonna be back in a month. 00:17:33.303 --> 00:17:37.923 And then we go the next day and we observe them again or do whichever one of the ones they want me to do. 00:17:38.253 --> 00:17:41.673 Then we have another reflective conversation where we ask three questions. 00:17:42.323 --> 00:17:44.033 How to go with the new strategy. 00:17:44.063 --> 00:17:45.443 What would you like to keep working on? 00:17:45.443 --> 00:17:46.793 And this is the most important one. 00:17:47.063 --> 00:17:51.323 What can I do to support you to make sure that it's built into your practice by the next time night? 00:17:51.323 --> 00:17:52.703 I see you down month, down the road. 00:17:53.123 --> 00:18:00.758 So we tell our trainees that on Friday afternoon, but they're so overloaded with what we've been practicing all week. 00:18:01.253 --> 00:18:02.663 It's not manifesting. 00:18:02.663 --> 00:18:06.683 So another example of a change is now we've added a part two training. 00:18:07.133 --> 00:18:14.033 We come back in for two or three days because you don't need to build mastery of doing it over and over again, but you wanna practice a couple times and we go and do that. 00:18:14.033 --> 00:18:21.053 Like that's another example of like how trust-based observations has evolved over the four years of where I just didn't know ahead of time. 00:18:21.053 --> 00:18:23.003 And we just learn and keep changing. 00:18:23.726 --> 00:18:31.526 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, that's, that's really fascinating and it's, it's good that it is built from the beginning to be fluid and. 00:18:33.041 --> 00:18:39.341 and that it's not like, well, you know, we did the research on it and this is the only way to do it and it has to be done with fidelity. 00:18:39.581 --> 00:18:44.621 And if it's not, then you know, you can kiss any gains goodbye, which drives me nuts. 00:18:44.951 --> 00:18:49.271 So what I'm curious about though is what has not evolved? 00:18:49.451 --> 00:18:53.771 What did you start with where you're like, man, that was so solid. 00:18:54.191 --> 00:19:03.221 I am I, I was seeing the future when I wrote that, and what hasn't changed that you think is still incredibly valuable. 00:19:03.353 --> 00:19:14.513 Craig Randall: Well, I'm not gonna give myself that much credit for see future, but, but I would say that the nine areas on the form and the learning principles like the, just the it's core practice areas, so those haven't changed at all. 00:19:15.683 --> 00:19:21.263 But I think the other thing really is that it is about. 00:19:22.538 --> 00:19:23.858 Relational trust. 00:19:24.368 --> 00:19:31.868 Like the research from the trust in schools people says that relational trust is central to academic improvement. 00:19:32.408 --> 00:19:35.828 Without that piece being there, it doesn't really matter what we do. 00:19:35.828 --> 00:19:36.793 We're not gonna see improvement. 00:19:37.273 --> 00:19:42.278 I. Which is why the traditional models, when you rate pedagogy don't work because that erodes trust. 00:19:42.493 --> 00:19:46.388 And, and, and it actually, I, I've read a lot more research on how it causes harm. 00:19:46.448 --> 00:19:56.888 And actually this is the most frightening to me besides increasing teacher dissatisfaction, is it decreases teachers sense of efficacy. 00:19:57.788 --> 00:20:01.778 So like, I'm really lucky Hadie endorsed trust-based observations and says. 00:20:02.273 --> 00:20:05.813 TBO as we call it, is collective teacher efficacy in action. 00:20:06.023 --> 00:20:11.753 How can I do collective teacher efficacy in action when the way I'm doing observations is lowering self-efficacy? 00:20:12.233 --> 00:20:24.173 So to your point, we have to work to build trust, and it sounds counterintuitive to have that reflective conversation to an observation. 00:20:24.603 --> 00:20:26.433 Be the place that you do it. 00:20:26.703 --> 00:20:42.333 But when you transform, the way you do it, when you make it about sharing strengths, when you make it, about asking them questions about practice that says, I value you and what you have to say, like the core of what trust-based observations is in terms of. 00:20:43.493 --> 00:20:47.693 That and that it takes time and we have to diligently, continually work on that. 00:20:47.693 --> 00:20:49.613 'cause relationships only get better or worse. 00:20:49.763 --> 00:20:52.223 And so that is the core. 00:20:52.223 --> 00:20:57.923 And without that all the other stuff that we're talking about, it'd just be like the others and not improving practice. 00:20:58.171 --> 00:20:58.591 Jethro D. Jones: Mm-hmm. 00:20:59.256 --> 00:20:59.706 Yeah. 00:20:59.826 --> 00:21:00.666 Oh, that's good. 00:21:01.146 --> 00:21:07.356 You know, I, you, you talked about trust as either growing or dying or something like that. 00:21:07.356 --> 00:21:08.196 You said something like that. 00:21:08.586 --> 00:21:12.591 Um, of the aspects of my dissertation that I'm working on is how. 00:21:13.556 --> 00:21:19.526 Organic skills are developed through the work that I do with principals, through my 00:21:19.898 --> 00:21:20.188 Craig Randall: Yeah. 00:21:21.176 --> 00:21:36.566 Jethro D. Jones: and or I'm, I'm calling them organic skills because they are, uh, they're skills that are either growing or, or dying and they're not like these, uh, these mechanistic skills where they are. 00:21:37.271 --> 00:21:40.601 Specific like you can or can't do this. 00:21:40.661 --> 00:21:47.141 And I would say like knowing how to teach these nine areas of pedagogy is the mechanistic 00:21:47.193 --> 00:21:47.483 Craig Randall: Yeah, 00:21:47.651 --> 00:21:47.981 Jethro D. Jones: of 00:21:48.083 --> 00:21:48.563 Craig Randall: I mean we, 00:21:48.671 --> 00:21:49.391 Jethro D. Jones: how to do it or you 00:21:49.433 --> 00:21:50.163 Craig Randall: yeah, sure. 00:21:50.591 --> 00:21:50.981 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:21:51.251 --> 00:21:56.741 So, but then the organic skill is knowing when to choose which one of those. 00:21:57.041 --> 00:22:01.481 Uh, pedagogical approach is going to be best for your class, for your individual student. 00:22:01.871 --> 00:22:17.021 But then that development of trust is also an organic skill that you have to work on continually, and that it doesn't, like, you don't get to a point where you're like, okay, I trust that person, and then you never have to work on it again. 00:22:17.381 --> 00:22:19.001 That just, that doesn't happen. 00:22:19.001 --> 00:22:25.121 And the closest we get to that is something like, you know, uh, my, my spouse or my kids. 00:22:25.421 --> 00:22:29.801 Or my parents where we've been together for our whole entire lives. 00:22:29.801 --> 00:22:37.661 And so I know that I can, that I can trust them to a certain extent, but even then, like sometimes there's falling out and stuff like that. 00:22:37.661 --> 00:22:44.621 So it's not like it's, it's perfect and it, it's always growing and evolving and it's so hard to put your finger on it. 00:22:44.801 --> 00:22:47.171 But when it's there, you can really tell. 00:22:47.171 --> 00:22:49.991 And when it's not, you can really tell And. 00:22:50.876 --> 00:23:00.686 And one of the things that, for the whole point of this is I had a, when I was a principal myself, I was doing the Danielson, uh, observation 00:23:00.703 --> 00:23:00.993 Craig Randall: Yeah. 00:23:01.676 --> 00:23:05.126 Jethro D. Jones: And it, you know, everybody gets raided with a number. 00:23:05.366 --> 00:23:11.786 And one of my teachers, when she retired, she said, sincerely so and so, and then she put her number. 00:23:12.236 --> 00:23:20.486 Uh, in her retirement letter, which was, which was such a kick to the stomach, that that's how she perceived. 00:23:20.486 --> 00:23:25.886 I saw her as just a number and I can't say she was wrong, like I sucked at that time. 00:23:25.886 --> 00:23:26.396 And so 00:23:26.978 --> 00:23:27.998 Craig Randall: It also, those, 00:23:28.046 --> 00:23:28.556 Jethro D. Jones: position. 00:23:28.628 --> 00:23:32.173 Craig Randall: models create deficit thinking against your own best intentions. 00:23:32.173 --> 00:23:32.533 They do. 00:23:32.793 --> 00:23:33.013 Wow. 00:23:33.553 --> 00:23:33.773 Wow. 00:23:34.243 --> 00:23:35.333 I've, I've, go ahead. 00:23:36.476 --> 00:23:40.766 Jethro D. Jones: Well, I was just gonna say, and what that taught me was, I've gotta do this differently. 00:23:41.186 --> 00:23:45.146 And that's why when I read trust-based observations, I was like, well, this is what it is. 00:23:45.386 --> 00:24:04.376 This is the way to do it, because you've got to build these, these feelings of trust first, and then you can say whatever you want because the trust is there and you can, you can say like, this is an area where you need to improve without it destroying them because they're like, oh, you care about me, you trust me. 00:24:04.376 --> 00:24:05.396 You ask for permission. 00:24:05.426 --> 00:24:07.196 I'm asking for this feedback. 00:24:07.406 --> 00:24:08.816 Therefore, we're all good. 00:24:09.303 --> 00:24:10.473 Craig Randall: You know, it, it's really interesting. 00:24:10.473 --> 00:24:18.873 We wait till the fourth visit, uh, to offer suggestions, and I'll tell you how it first happened, and it's backed up by Brene Brown's research, which I'll talk about in a second too. 00:24:19.293 --> 00:24:38.408 But my very first year as an assistant principal, I started doing, I. I didn't know trust-based observations, but what I'd learned in my supervision class, which is basically the, the basics of trust-based observations, and I had teachers, my very first year old and new say, oh, you're the best principal I ever had, and I didn't know. 00:24:38.413 --> 00:24:44.953 Anything about what I was doing as a principal, except I knew how to do trust-based observation, what is now trust-based observations. 00:24:45.043 --> 00:24:48.043 And teachers so appreciated having strengths shared with them. 00:24:48.043 --> 00:24:49.903 It was so foreign to what they were doing. 00:24:50.203 --> 00:24:56.773 They so appreciated that we started by asking them what they thought about what they were doing instead of telling that that's what they said. 00:24:57.433 --> 00:24:59.863 And so I didn't get feedback at first. 00:25:00.473 --> 00:25:01.523 For a lesser reason. 00:25:01.523 --> 00:25:08.753 And then the real reason, the lesser reason was I knew even seeing them as much as I was once every three to four weeks, that was still 1% of the time. 00:25:08.753 --> 00:25:12.023 So what if I offered a suggestion on something ever good at, but I hadn't seen yet? 00:25:12.053 --> 00:25:14.063 I knew that would be bad, just intuitively. 00:25:14.543 --> 00:25:23.873 But the real reason Jethro was I, I had these teachers say these really, really nice things about me, and I was afraid if I started offering suggestions, they wouldn't. 00:25:23.938 --> 00:25:24.928 Me anymore. 00:25:25.468 --> 00:25:39.928 And so, uh, the third and fourth round through at this school, well over half the teachers at the end of the reflective conversation said some version of, okay, okay, okay, but what can I get better at? 00:25:40.793 --> 00:25:46.553 And, and I didn't know until way, way later when I realized I had something because we'd waited. 00:25:46.613 --> 00:25:54.443 We trust had built, and Brene Brown talks about vulnerability, risk taking and trust, and the connection between them. 00:25:54.443 --> 00:25:57.173 She says Vulnerability is not a bad thing in and of itself. 00:25:57.323 --> 00:25:59.333 I looked to kind of like the amygdala. 00:25:59.518 --> 00:26:04.823 It, it kind of tells us if something's wrong, so if our sense of vulnerability is too high, that maybe means something's off. 00:26:05.298 --> 00:26:13.218 And so she says The way we lower vulnerability to get people to take risks is by building trust. 00:26:13.518 --> 00:26:21.198 And so really I think what's happening during those first three, four times that we're talking about now that we've waited is, and she gets this analogy of. 00:26:21.688 --> 00:26:26.698 You think of a jar and every action you take is putting a marble in the jar. 00:26:26.728 --> 00:26:36.208 And the tr uh, the reflective conversation is all about all these highly specific actions that we take and strengths that we share that are marble, marble, marble in the jar. 00:26:36.268 --> 00:26:40.708 And what we think happens is by the end of the fourth visit, that jar's full. 00:26:41.198 --> 00:26:49.568 Some people it takes a little longer because maybe they've had traumatic experiences before, but that's how that whole piece has come together related to trust, relational trust and relationships. 00:26:49.718 --> 00:26:56.858 And when that's there, exactly like you're saying, they want to grow, but they feel safe now and they know. 00:26:56.858 --> 00:27:01.748 And Joe Throw, I think I've told you this before, but it's been a while, we tell the teachers literally. 00:27:02.238 --> 00:27:04.518 Here's the goal of trust-based observations. 00:27:05.088 --> 00:27:22.968 It's for anybody in our building that does observations to build enough trust with each one of you so that any one of us can come into your class, observe you, see you trying something new, and even though it's highly unlikely, have that thing you're trying be a train wreck. 00:27:23.873 --> 00:27:28.373 But as opposed to that traditional observations that Danielson, that Marzano that whatever. 00:27:28.403 --> 00:27:34.343 'cause they're all basically the same if you rate pedagogy where you'd be freaking out thinking, oh my God, this can't be happening to me today. 00:27:34.643 --> 00:27:39.053 You won't be worried with trust based observations when we're in there or when we leave. 00:27:39.163 --> 00:27:44.983 Because you know, the next day when I come into your classroom, the first thing I'm gonna say is, Jethro, I love that you were trying something new. 00:27:44.983 --> 00:27:52.513 It's not always gonna work the way we, the way we plan high five or fist bump, and then we just say, because when we created those conditions, what's gonna happen? 00:27:52.543 --> 00:27:54.493 You'll persist in taking risks. 00:27:54.703 --> 00:28:01.303 So will every teacher in our building, and that means we're gonna grow individually, collectively, and do our most important job, improve teaching and learning. 00:28:01.513 --> 00:28:02.953 And that's what this is all about. 00:28:02.953 --> 00:28:04.363 It's not rocket science. 00:28:05.006 --> 00:28:05.396 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:28:05.546 --> 00:28:07.016 Yeah, absolutely. 00:28:07.016 --> 00:28:12.476 And, and I, I saw that myself when I. not knowing about trust-based observations. 00:28:12.596 --> 00:28:15.626 Uh, had a teacher say, I'm doing something brand new. 00:28:15.626 --> 00:28:17.846 Do you wanna do my evaluation observation today? 00:28:18.116 --> 00:28:20.066 And I was like, yeah, let's do it. 00:28:20.366 --> 00:28:22.736 And, but that's not what people usually say to me, teacher. 00:28:22.736 --> 00:28:30.351 And she was like, well, you know, I know you're gonna help me and help me be better, and I. I know that the, the final score on that doesn't really matter. 00:28:30.411 --> 00:28:32.271 What matters is what I do in the classroom every day. 00:28:32.271 --> 00:28:36.651 And, and that was, that was really powerful to me to see that, that it is possible. 00:28:37.071 --> 00:28:38.991 Well, Craig, this has been awesome chatting with you. 00:28:38.991 --> 00:28:40.491 Thank you again for being here. 00:28:40.581 --> 00:28:45.261 Uh, 20 minutes of Teaching Brilliance on the road with trust-based observations is his podcast. 00:28:45.261 --> 00:28:48.111 You can find the show, you can find a link to it in the show notes. 00:28:48.441 --> 00:28:54.561 At Transformative Principal dot org, you can also hear his latest uh, episode with me, which was four years ago. 00:28:54.891 --> 00:28:58.671 But here's the other cool thing we didn't even get to talk about is somebody did a dissertation. 00:28:59.021 --> 00:29:00.701 On trust-based observations. 00:29:00.701 --> 00:29:04.661 Valerie Debu, I said her name poorly 'cause I don't speak French. 00:29:04.721 --> 00:29:06.341 And she corrected me on the podcast. 00:29:06.341 --> 00:29:07.931 I said it right once when she was 00:29:08.173 --> 00:29:08.443 Craig Randall: Yes. 00:29:08.561 --> 00:29:13.301 Jethro D. Jones: but you can go check that out Also, that is in the show notes as well at Transformative Principal dot org. 00:29:13.631 --> 00:29:15.731 And while you're there, sign up for my newsletter. 00:29:15.731 --> 00:29:18.761 I'm doing some really cool stuff with that and I'd love to have you. 00:29:19.121 --> 00:29:19.901 Thanks so much. 00:29:19.931 --> 00:29:22.451 And Craig, thanks for being part of Transformative principle. 00:29:22.613 --> 00:29:23.543 Craig Randall: Jethro, thanks so much. 00:29:23.543 --> 00:29:28.613 And I just have to say really quickly, wow, what an honor to have somebody do a dissertation on your work. 00:29:28.823 --> 00:29:30.233 So million. 00:29:30.716 --> 00:29:31.106 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:29:31.376 --> 00:29:31.856 Awesome. 00:29:31.976 --> 00:29:32.336 Thank you. 00:29:32.336 --> 00:29:32.816 We'll see it.