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(upbeat music)

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- This is Lab Medicine Rounds,

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a curated podcast for physicians,

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laboratory professionals and students.

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I'm your host, Justin
Kreuter, the bow tie bandit,

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a transfusion medicine
pathologist at Mayo Clinic.

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It's April fools day and
we have the perfect topic

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in store for you all.

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Today we're rounding
with Dr. Reade Quinton,

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an assistant professor of
laboratory medicine and pathology,

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and an anatomic pathologist
at the department

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of laboratory medicine and
pathology at Mayo Clinic.

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Dr. Quinton is also
happens to be a magician.

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So today we have the pleasure of talking

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with him about the magic in medicine.

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Thanks for joining us today, Dr. Quinton.

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- I'm happy to be back again.

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This is, I think my second or third time

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with you and these are always fun.

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- Yeah. Your second
appearance on the podcast,

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we're jazzed to have you.

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And so what's your origin story?

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How did you get started in magic?

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- You make it sound like it's
the superhero origin story.

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- It kinda is, right?

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- Yeah. So actually
it's a really neat story

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that relates to medicine
in that most kids,

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if you look at most people that get magic,

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it's the classic like,

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I was about seven or eight
years old and I had an uncle

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that would do card tricks
and that gave me the bug

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and got me interested and
that was not me actually.

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I probably had my first deck
of trick cards or something

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when I was about seven or eight

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but never really thought much of it.

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But it wasn't until I was in med school

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and I was on my cardiothoracic
surgery rotation.

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And we had one of the retired
surgeons would come in

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and do small topic talks

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with our small group of med students.

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And after about 20 minutes of talking

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about pulmonary hypertension or whatever,

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he would then turn around and go,

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you guys wanna see a card trick

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and he'd start doing tricks for us.

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Now his name was Dr. Watts Webb.

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And last time I checked,

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he was still in New
Orleans in his nineties

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and was still doing magic. It was amazing.

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But I realized at that time
I got a big kick out of it

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but more importantly I
knew my next rotation

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was going to be pediatrics.

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And so I went to him and I said,

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you know this is really neat,

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how do you learn this?

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And that's what got me started.

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And so I went down that path a little bit,

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bought some books, bought some props.

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My wife I thought,

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oh, this is a great
hobby because it's cheap.

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It's just a couple
books and decks of cards

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and little did she know
where that would go.

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And eventually I would
say my second big credit

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in guiding me would be
Dr. Ricardo Rosenkrantz

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who's actually a neonatologist
at Northwestern University.

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And he along with several
professional magicians

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including Jeff McBride, Larry
Haass and Eugene Burger,

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actually teach a medicine and magic class

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through the mystery magic
school in Las Vegas.

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And so I met Ricardo and
all of them through that

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and so that was the second part of this.

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So I have to give a lot
of the topics credit here

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in that a lot of the stuff
I talk about really comes

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from what Ricardo started.

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- Wow. I think my thoracic
surgery rotation experience

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in medical school, I remember it well,

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and I remember a lot more
adrenal discharge than that,

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I imagine that was wonderful for learning,

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and then how does this
roll into your practice

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as an anatomic pathologist?

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How do you see this skill?

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How does this translate?

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- And so when I talk to students
about this kind of thing,

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we talk about how does that translate

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because it was great in medical school,

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especially going on into
that pediatric rotation,

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I could approach the
patients in a different way

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and engage them before you just go in

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and start poking and prodding them.

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And so we joke now about,

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well, how in the world does
that translate to pathology?

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Particularly in my field
of forensic pathology.

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And so there are many
of the same concepts,

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but they don't necessarily
translate to patient interaction.

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But essentially what I
think of is in terms of,

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if you look at our practice,
be it forensics or not,

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I look at the skillset as being scripting,

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costuming and audience
engagement, if you will,

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those are my big three.

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So scripting in magic essentially is,

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there are people who perform
magic just off the cuff

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and do it without any type of script.

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But those aren't usually as successful

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as the stage magicians who
have a very detailed script

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and know exactly what they're
going to say every time.

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And so for me, I translate
that into my engagement with,

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for instance, a jury,

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knowing when I sit on the stand,

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I know exactly what I'm
going to say every time

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and then run through it multiple times.

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So there's that scripting and rehearsal

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so that when I get on the stand,

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I'm actually comfortable
saying what I'm gonna say.

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Costuming, at some point in
our careers I think we've all

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had the experience where
we run into the doc

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who wants to be a little more
laid back and they're like,

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I don't want my patients
to be intimidated by me

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so they basically wear the white coat,

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but there're sporting jeans

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and a polo shirt or something like that.

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I'm not saying that's a bad thing,

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but costuming is important
because it engages the audience

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and tells them who is this person.

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So there was Max Maven who's a mentalist

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and he really would be upset
if you called him a magician

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but he's more of a mentalist.

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- And maybe for our
listeners, can you just...

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What is a mentalist?

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Because I think before
I got to really spend

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some time with you,

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I was unclear about what that meant.

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- Sure. So mentalists
are basically the guys

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who their entire show is
based on like mind reading,

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predictions, things like that.

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So not really what you'd expect

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as far as like big stage
illusions or things like that.

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And that's another thing,

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is that magic basically is like medicine

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in that there are multiple subspecialties.

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So mentalism is a subspecialty

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within the larger field of magic.

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But anyway, Max Mavin,

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when he talks about audience
engagement, he says,

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as soon as you step out on stage,

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the audience has their
own internal dialogue.

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And they're thinking
basically, who is this person?

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What do they do? And why should I care?

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And he postulated that the faster

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you can address those questions,

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the more successful you are going to be

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because they'll be sort
of calm down and go,

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okay, I understand what
I'm getting into here.

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And so we think of that in
medicine, in the same terms.

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So if I have the appropriate costuming

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and I look like a physician,

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then when I walk in to see a patient,

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that's one less box for them
to tick, is who is this person?

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Because if you walk in
wearing different costuming,

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they might go, well, is this
the nurse, is this the doctor,

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is this a student?

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So there's a lot of questions

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that they're trying to deal with.

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So that's another element of what we do.

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So especially in, again, in
my field when I'm testifying,

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you walk in looking a certain way

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because that's what the jury
expects you to look like.

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And so that's scripting and costuming.

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And then audience engagement in general.

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Just learning how to engage
your audience/jury/patient,

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to basically be able to answer
those questions quickly,

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get to the root of what
their concerns are,

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understand what is their internal dialogue

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that they're having so that
you can address their questions

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and it's everything from eye contact

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to the simple things of public speaking

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we always talk about.

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Do you project your voice
well? Do you mumble?

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Do you look down at your
notes the whole time

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instead of engaging with
the patient or the jury?

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So I think all of those
topics translate very well

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between the theatricality of magic

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and the theatricality of medicine.

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- Yeah. I think for our listeners,

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I love how you broke it
down to these concepts,

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scripts, costume, and audience.

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I mean, with regarding script
what I hear you saying is,

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you're talking about this preparation

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that's happening behind the scenes.

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And I equate that to how we think

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about attribute like some
great artists is like,

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they're just brilliant.

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And we don't see all the years of practice

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and failures about that.

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And I think for our residents and fellows,

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a lot it's times, it just seems like,

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wow, Dr. Quinton just always
knows the right answer

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or he's just really on point.

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And we just hope that
someday that we can be

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that quick with our answers,

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but I think it maybe lays ourselves bare

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to just highlight that
there's a lot of preparation

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that goes into being a great physician.

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- Yeah. And the funny thing is,

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you say you focused on
that preparation aspect

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and the strange thing about magic is that,

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unlike every other form of art,

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oftentimes we're trying
to hide our skillset.

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So if we make it look like
something is spontaneous

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and natural that's success,

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but it doesn't look like we did anything.

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So a lot of that preparation and practice

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and the hours and hours of
anxiety that go behind that,

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nobody ever perceives

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because the end goal is
for them not to see it.

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- Wow. And then costuming,

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I feel like I'm gonna
come to you like with...

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This is a great way to explain

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how do we think about
professionalism and things like that,

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that I think in medical education,

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sometimes it's more challenging
for us to address deficits

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and professionalism in contrast

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to medical knowledge, for example.

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- Yeah, for sure.

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- So I really like how
you broke that down.

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I think that's a lot for our
audience to take with you.

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I'm curious now about these concepts,

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how do you approach teaching our residents

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and fellows about how
they might think about

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and use magic in their practice?

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I know you're not necessarily,

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maybe there's a couple that
have been full converts

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and are card carrying
members of the brotherhood,

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but I imagine too there's also
some things that they can...

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So these are certainly concepts

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that they can take
forward in their career.

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- Sure. And so much of
it is almost by osmosis

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and quite frankly oftentimes
we're not spelling out

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that these are these practices

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from what I've learned in magic.

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But as we, you, me, all of
us interact with students

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and residents and all that,

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it's those little touches
where we engage with them

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and they're giving a presentation

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and we give them feedback
afterwards and say,

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oh, I might have done this

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or even thinking about a
PowerPoint presentation

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and how are we critique?
How much is on the slide?

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Don't read off the slide, all
of that is the same skillset.

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And so even if they don't
know they're learning

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some that skillset that
it's behind the scenes

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that we're teaching it.

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In a more formal way, when
I first got here to Mayo,

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I actually reached out to the...

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We have on campus, a center
for humanities that engages

255
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:31,550
and basically uses the arts to talk

256
00:12:31,550 --> 00:12:34,050
about medicine in a little bit of a way.

257
00:12:34,050 --> 00:12:36,550
And when I reached out to them,

258
00:12:36,550 --> 00:12:40,070
they actually connected me
with the medical student group.

259
00:12:40,070 --> 00:12:43,280
There's an actual humanities
in medicine interest group

260
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:44,860
for the medical students here.

261
00:12:44,860 --> 00:12:48,840
And so they do basically lunch lectures

262
00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,850
with different people who do
all kinds of different things

263
00:12:51,850 --> 00:12:53,880
outside of medicine.

264
00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,000
And so for three years in a
row I've actually gone back

265
00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,380
to give them magic and medicine talks

266
00:13:00,380 --> 00:13:02,640
and the med students really enjoy it.

267
00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,060
So it's a fun formal way to say,

268
00:13:06,060 --> 00:13:09,020
that's my plan as opposed
to with the residents,

269
00:13:09,020 --> 00:13:11,510
oftentimes it's on service
and it's sort of secretive

270
00:13:11,510 --> 00:13:13,463
like, yeah, I'm feeding you this knowledge

271
00:13:13,463 --> 00:13:15,813
but you might know it's
coming from this place.

272
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,520
- I think our audience knows
last time we were celebrating

273
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,090
the fact that you had won
teacher of the year award

274
00:13:25,090 --> 00:13:27,920
given to you from the resident class

275
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:29,680
here in anatomic pathology

276
00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:34,649
and I imagine that being a
good teacher right there,

277
00:13:34,649 --> 00:13:36,770
when you're dealing with your...

278
00:13:36,770 --> 00:13:39,970
When you're teaching somebody,
who's maybe more junior,

279
00:13:39,970 --> 00:13:44,200
a lot of concepts in medical
practice are quite complex

280
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,660
and you almost need a
little bit of a suspension

281
00:13:47,660 --> 00:13:51,930
of a lot of the details
for that beginner learner

282
00:13:51,930 --> 00:13:55,200
to take those first
steps, feel successful,

283
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,840
gain some confidence and
get ready to understand

284
00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,348
some of the nitty gritty.

285
00:14:01,348 --> 00:14:03,660
I think about that a lot when I'm talking

286
00:14:03,660 --> 00:14:06,480
about these concepts
in transfusion medicine

287
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,160
with a resident versus a fellow.

288
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:10,290
You're covering it in different ways.

289
00:14:10,290 --> 00:14:15,290
I'm curious, do you see
that in your practice

290
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,180
and do you see yourself kind of...

291
00:14:19,180 --> 00:14:21,430
How do you... How can we....

292
00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:23,440
I mean, there's a lot of medical educators

293
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,240
that are listening to this podcast.

294
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:29,020
How can we get better at
suspending some of that belief

295
00:14:29,020 --> 00:14:32,400
for our residents and not get caught up

296
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:34,300
in some of that nitty gritty?

297
00:14:34,300 --> 00:14:36,492
- Sure. The question is fantasic.

298
00:14:36,492 --> 00:14:41,410
And it comes down to that
same concept of understanding

299
00:14:41,410 --> 00:14:43,480
what their internal dialogue is.

300
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,380
So when we talk about
speaking to a patient,

301
00:14:47,380 --> 00:14:49,610
we're trying to think
about and anticipate,

302
00:14:49,610 --> 00:14:51,760
what are their questions
behind the scenes?

303
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,300
Why does this hurt? Am I going to die?

304
00:14:54,300 --> 00:14:56,570
Sometimes it's really deep questions.

305
00:14:56,570 --> 00:15:01,230
For the residents obviously
it might not be that level,

306
00:15:01,230 --> 00:15:05,090
but I think for us to put
ourselves in their shoes,

307
00:15:05,090 --> 00:15:07,100
bring ourselves down a little bit,

308
00:15:07,100 --> 00:15:09,360
you don't necessarily want to...

309
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,070
You need to express your
own human humanity too.

310
00:15:12,070 --> 00:15:13,960
So be able to get down to their level

311
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:15,640
and understand behind the scenes.

312
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,880
Okay. When I was in that
position, what did I understand?

313
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,420
And start from that
baseline and go from there.

314
00:15:22,420 --> 00:15:27,420
So again, anticipating like,
okay, as a first year resident,

315
00:15:27,530 --> 00:15:30,538
what kind of questions would they have

316
00:15:30,538 --> 00:15:32,860
if they don't know they have that question

317
00:15:32,860 --> 00:15:34,960
or maybe they're too
afraid to ask that question

318
00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,300
and then try to anticipate
and answer some of those

319
00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:40,850
as we go even if they
haven't been presented to me.

320
00:15:42,020 --> 00:15:43,990
- I love how you're
really, it sounds like,

321
00:15:43,990 --> 00:15:47,430
you that beginner's mindset
and we need to remember that,

322
00:15:47,430 --> 00:15:49,277
think about that.

323
00:15:49,277 --> 00:15:51,950
This last question is what that,

324
00:15:51,950 --> 00:15:56,770
in the spirit of being transparent

325
00:15:56,770 --> 00:15:58,300
this concept of script

326
00:15:58,300 --> 00:16:00,923
that you've introduced us to Dr. Quinton.

327
00:16:01,950 --> 00:16:04,990
This last question is a
little bit of a doozy,

328
00:16:04,990 --> 00:16:07,340
but I gave this to you
ahead of time to think about

329
00:16:07,340 --> 00:16:08,670
because it's such a doozy.

330
00:16:08,670 --> 00:16:12,020
So for our listeners this
isn't Dr. Quinton off the cuff,

331
00:16:12,020 --> 00:16:15,930
but I asked him and what I'm
gonna ask him right now is,

332
00:16:15,930 --> 00:16:19,260
what would an ACGME milestone

333
00:16:19,260 --> 00:16:22,520
on magic in pathology look like?

334
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,490
And so I'm curious for your thoughts

335
00:16:25,490 --> 00:16:27,940
and this isn't the typical final question

336
00:16:27,940 --> 00:16:29,530
but I think it's a neat way for us

337
00:16:29,530 --> 00:16:33,003
to get our arms around these conversations

338
00:16:33,003 --> 00:16:35,380
some of these concepts
that you've shared with us

339
00:16:35,380 --> 00:16:37,940
and also make it a
little bit more concrete

340
00:16:37,940 --> 00:16:39,190
for our listeners.

341
00:16:39,190 --> 00:16:41,980
- Sure. So I did struggle with this

342
00:16:41,980 --> 00:16:45,410
because honestly there's
two ways to look at it.

343
00:16:45,410 --> 00:16:49,300
So one way which I started
with was basically,

344
00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:53,920
if I had to write milestones
for magic, what would they be?

345
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,240
And then I backtracked
from there and said,

346
00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,271
okay, now how would I apply
this to what we do in pathology?

347
00:17:00,271 --> 00:17:03,317
So just for fun, I actually
do wanna share with you

348
00:17:03,317 --> 00:17:06,593
and I'm gonna move this on
my screen so I can see it.

349
00:17:07,620 --> 00:17:10,347
But I did create the
milestones for magic first.

350
00:17:10,347 --> 00:17:12,530
And I think you'll be amused by these

351
00:17:12,530 --> 00:17:14,550
but basically going for one to five,

352
00:17:14,550 --> 00:17:18,823
one being the lowest beginner
all the way up to five.

353
00:17:20,198 --> 00:17:22,030
And hopefully most of our learners know

354
00:17:22,030 --> 00:17:24,710
what the milestones are, but basically...

355
00:17:24,710 --> 00:17:26,640
So number one in magic,

356
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,240
if you were just starting
at your baseline milestone,

357
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,660
I just have it listed as
perform self-working card trick

358
00:17:33,660 --> 00:17:35,063
that they from their uncle.

359
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,650
So just the very simple basics.

360
00:17:39,650 --> 00:17:41,480
And then the second one is,

361
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,750
that I wrote in that same category is,

362
00:17:43,750 --> 00:17:45,820
aware that you should not expose secrets.

363
00:17:45,820 --> 00:17:48,500
Now, I don't say, don't expose secrets

364
00:17:48,500 --> 00:17:52,320
because pretty much
everybody at level one does,

365
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,523
but they're aware you probably shouldn't.

366
00:17:55,660 --> 00:17:58,290
So this is going back
to that idea of seven

367
00:17:58,290 --> 00:18:00,840
or eight year old who is
learning their first trick.

368
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:02,280
They're so excited about it.

369
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,470
It's a self working card
trick or something like that.

370
00:18:04,470 --> 00:18:06,000
But then of course they
immediately show you

371
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:06,833
how they did it

372
00:18:07,730 --> 00:18:09,770
even though they know something
they probably shouldn't.

373
00:18:09,770 --> 00:18:12,270
So level two in the milestone though,

374
00:18:12,270 --> 00:18:14,740
I have identified
different types of magic.

375
00:18:14,740 --> 00:18:16,400
So now you're understanding,

376
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,613
oh, there's card tricks, coin tricks,

377
00:18:19,820 --> 00:18:23,380
the kids shows, mentalism
that kind of thing.

378
00:18:23,380 --> 00:18:25,910
Aware of resources
available, including books,

379
00:18:25,910 --> 00:18:29,100
videos, and mentors can
perform basics sleight of hand

380
00:18:29,100 --> 00:18:30,670
with one or two props.

381
00:18:30,670 --> 00:18:33,350
So you're only focusing
on one or two things.

382
00:18:33,350 --> 00:18:35,020
Performs for family and friends

383
00:18:35,020 --> 00:18:38,350
and does not intentionally expose methods.

384
00:18:38,350 --> 00:18:39,700
So now you've gotten to the point

385
00:18:39,700 --> 00:18:41,490
where you know I shouldn't give it away,

386
00:18:41,490 --> 00:18:42,790
I'm trying not to give it away,

387
00:18:42,790 --> 00:18:45,230
but sometimes maybe I
don't have the dexterity

388
00:18:45,230 --> 00:18:48,400
to not give it away so
some people will catch me.

389
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,360
So then milestone number three

390
00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:53,570
would be comfortably performs
magic in front of strangers.

391
00:18:53,570 --> 00:18:57,420
So not just family and
friends in a close up setting.

392
00:18:57,420 --> 00:18:59,960
Familiar with sleights of
several types of magic.

393
00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:02,520
So this would be now you're
familiar with coin magic,

394
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,260
card magic, SpongeBob magic, whatever,

395
00:19:05,260 --> 00:19:07,560
but comfortable with one or two types.

396
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,680
And then the third in there is,

397
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:11,610
engages with other magicians

398
00:19:11,610 --> 00:19:13,140
in order to improve their practice.

399
00:19:13,140 --> 00:19:16,890
So that is you seeking
out magicians or mentors

400
00:19:16,890 --> 00:19:20,290
to try to develop better
habits or learn something.

401
00:19:20,290 --> 00:19:23,170
Then proficiency number four,

402
00:19:23,170 --> 00:19:25,040
comfortable performing
in front of strangers

403
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,270
including table and small stage settings

404
00:19:27,270 --> 00:19:29,990
may occasionally provide,
put paid performances.

405
00:19:29,990 --> 00:19:32,210
So now we're get into a whole new level.

406
00:19:32,210 --> 00:19:35,020
And then engages other
magicians to both provide

407
00:19:35,020 --> 00:19:37,650
and receive constructive feedback.

408
00:19:37,650 --> 00:19:40,120
And then finally the level
five would be comfortable

409
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:42,470
in all types of performance venues,

410
00:19:42,470 --> 00:19:45,420
may engage in paid
performances professionally

411
00:19:45,420 --> 00:19:46,710
or semi-professionally.

412
00:19:46,710 --> 00:19:50,390
And then the last part of that
is mentors other magicians

413
00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:51,810
to improve their craft.

414
00:19:51,810 --> 00:19:54,814
So that's where I went with magic

415
00:19:54,814 --> 00:19:57,370
which really made me wish
I could just go ahead

416
00:19:57,370 --> 00:19:59,890
and write a whole book
of milestones for magic

417
00:19:59,890 --> 00:20:01,240
because that was super fun.

418
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,190
But moving on a little more specifically,

419
00:20:06,190 --> 00:20:10,120
so then I took that and tried
to apply it back to pathology.

420
00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:12,250
And so I said, let me
go through the framework

421
00:20:12,250 --> 00:20:14,520
of our own pathology milestones

422
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,080
and see how I could rewrite them.

423
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:17,930
And to be honest with you, Justin,

424
00:20:17,930 --> 00:20:21,010
I ended up going, I don't
have to rewrite them.

425
00:20:21,010 --> 00:20:24,120
So I went through and I
found two core competencies

426
00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:26,880
that I think really are
the most appropriate.

427
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,880
There was in the big picture,
patient care and the ICS,

428
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,910
so interpersonal and communication skills.

429
00:20:34,910 --> 00:20:38,680
I thought those two core
competencies really could apply

430
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:39,930
to what we're talking about.

431
00:20:39,930 --> 00:20:42,010
And so as we go through these,

432
00:20:42,010 --> 00:20:45,000
these have nothing
specifically to do with magic,

433
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,770
but it goes back to the idea

434
00:20:46,770 --> 00:20:51,770
of the magic concepts or theater concepts.

435
00:20:52,340 --> 00:20:54,190
So for patient care,

436
00:20:54,190 --> 00:20:56,310
actually we have two that I selected out.

437
00:20:56,310 --> 00:20:59,390
One is reporting and the
other one is grossing.

438
00:20:59,390 --> 00:21:02,670
So in pathology obviously
we develop reports

439
00:21:02,670 --> 00:21:05,520
and we gross specimens.

440
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,350
And if you look at the grossing one,

441
00:21:08,350 --> 00:21:10,330
it's the same level one through five,

442
00:21:10,330 --> 00:21:13,905
basically level two is you're
learning how to sample,

443
00:21:13,905 --> 00:21:16,410
you're learning how to
document simple cases.

444
00:21:16,410 --> 00:21:17,920
By the time you get to level five,

445
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,910
you can independently gross
very complex specimens.

446
00:21:21,910 --> 00:21:24,420
So this translation is the same

447
00:21:24,420 --> 00:21:26,930
as I learned to do a
self-working card trick

448
00:21:26,930 --> 00:21:29,133
versus I'm performing on stage.

449
00:21:30,180 --> 00:21:33,990
With the reporting, it's
the same as the scripting.

450
00:21:33,990 --> 00:21:38,470
Basically you're just learning
how to identify key things

451
00:21:38,470 --> 00:21:41,660
that you would wanna talk
about in your report.

452
00:21:41,660 --> 00:21:43,330
And then over the years,

453
00:21:43,330 --> 00:21:45,080
essentially learning how to generate

454
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,950
a very complicated yet concise report,

455
00:21:47,950 --> 00:21:50,880
which the best scripting
basically you start

456
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,870
with a very big script and
you keep whittling it down

457
00:21:53,870 --> 00:21:58,050
and you take out everything
that is superfluous

458
00:21:58,050 --> 00:22:01,390
and get down to the simplest script.

459
00:22:01,390 --> 00:22:03,040
And it's the same thing with our reports,

460
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,310
is you don't want a bunch
of extra stuff in there.

461
00:22:06,310 --> 00:22:09,140
And then for the interpersonal
and communication skills,

462
00:22:09,140 --> 00:22:10,820
there's two of them I selected out

463
00:22:10,820 --> 00:22:14,290
which I think directly apply
to what we're talking about.

464
00:22:14,290 --> 00:22:17,130
One was patient and family
centered communication,

465
00:22:17,130 --> 00:22:19,010
and the other one was interprofessional

466
00:22:19,010 --> 00:22:20,810
and team communication.

467
00:22:20,810 --> 00:22:22,593
So looking at the team one,

468
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,240
just reading through it
and going for instance,

469
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,090
level three integrates feedback

470
00:22:28,090 --> 00:22:30,640
from team members to
improve communication.

471
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,580
So basically you're constantly
talking to the team,

472
00:22:34,580 --> 00:22:37,080
learning from them and looping background

473
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,400
and improving what you're doing

474
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,850
by the time you get to level four,

475
00:22:41,850 --> 00:22:44,630
coordinates recommendations
from different team members

476
00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:47,740
of the healthcare team to
provide optimized patient care.

477
00:22:47,740 --> 00:22:50,650
So basically synthesizing all that.

478
00:22:50,650 --> 00:22:52,530
So as we interact with patients

479
00:22:52,530 --> 00:22:54,560
or as we interact with team members,

480
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,030
or at the same time as we
interact with audience members,

481
00:22:58,030 --> 00:23:00,030
there's that constant feedback loop.

482
00:23:00,030 --> 00:23:03,070
So I say something, I
get a response then I go,

483
00:23:03,070 --> 00:23:06,380
okay, I need to wrap that
back into what I'm doing.

484
00:23:06,380 --> 00:23:10,330
And so I think in theater or in magic,

485
00:23:10,330 --> 00:23:12,300
the audience knows very quickly

486
00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:14,420
if you're not really engaged with them.

487
00:23:14,420 --> 00:23:19,180
So if you seem like you are
just rattling off a script

488
00:23:19,180 --> 00:23:22,930
without actually engaging them,
they will pick up on that.

489
00:23:22,930 --> 00:23:24,450
And we see it in medicine too,

490
00:23:24,450 --> 00:23:28,080
where somebody's speaking
and they're just so formal

491
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,440
about their topic that
they can't even adjust

492
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,370
and answer questions because they're like,

493
00:23:33,370 --> 00:23:36,080
well, this is what I'm here
to talk about, and that's it.

494
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:37,310
So same thing with the patient

495
00:23:37,310 --> 00:23:38,610
and family centered communication,

496
00:23:38,610 --> 00:23:41,193
basically establishing relationships,

497
00:23:42,487 --> 00:23:44,360
like level four for that one.

498
00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:46,550
Independently recognizes personal biases

499
00:23:46,550 --> 00:23:48,640
while attempting to proactively minimize

500
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,090
communication barriers.

501
00:23:50,090 --> 00:23:52,383
If that's not theater,
I don't know what is.

502
00:23:53,250 --> 00:23:57,070
So anyway, very long-winded
answer to tell you

503
00:23:57,070 --> 00:23:59,070
that I think in our milestones

504
00:23:59,070 --> 00:24:00,590
there's already multiple things

505
00:24:00,590 --> 00:24:03,330
that apply to what we're
talking about here.

506
00:24:03,330 --> 00:24:04,430
- That's the magic trick

507
00:24:04,430 --> 00:24:06,230
that you just did for our listeners.

508
00:24:07,750 --> 00:24:11,300
We didn't even know that magic
was present in our milestones

509
00:24:11,300 --> 00:24:14,940
and you made it appear, you
pulled it outta the hat,

510
00:24:14,940 --> 00:24:15,900
which is awesome.

511
00:24:15,900 --> 00:24:20,900
I feel like you've given
me a new way to think about

512
00:24:22,030 --> 00:24:26,473
how can I talk about these
issues with learners.

513
00:24:27,820 --> 00:24:30,520
Cause you and I were talking

514
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,630
before we got going recording here

515
00:24:32,630 --> 00:24:35,320
and I was sharing that I've
been doing some simulation

516
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,830
and thinking about wanting
my learners to quote unquote,

517
00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:41,623
think like a pathologist.

518
00:24:42,490 --> 00:24:45,440
And that was a very nebulous
thing when I started.

519
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:47,270
But as I was going forward,

520
00:24:47,270 --> 00:24:48,660
I've noticed through the feedback,

521
00:24:48,660 --> 00:24:51,920
what I really mean when I say that,

522
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,940
is that they are truly
listening to the patient,

523
00:24:55,940 --> 00:24:58,690
the team member and I see that reflected

524
00:24:58,690 --> 00:25:01,075
in what you were just saying about,

525
00:25:01,075 --> 00:25:04,960
being authentic, you know your script,

526
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:05,950
you're prepared for it

527
00:25:05,950 --> 00:25:09,080
but you have to interact
with that other person

528
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:09,960
in an authentic way.

529
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,000
If they ask a question,

530
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,560
you have to really respond
meaningfully to it.

531
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,560
Not that no... That's
not part of the script.

532
00:25:19,810 --> 00:25:20,910
We're doing the trick.

533
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:23,547
I see how this goes

534
00:25:23,547 --> 00:25:25,830
and I think this is
really something beautiful

535
00:25:25,830 --> 00:25:30,363
for our Audience to
think about and reflect.

536
00:25:31,930 --> 00:25:33,680
- In my own experience,

537
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,858
having seen many magicians perform,

538
00:25:36,858 --> 00:25:38,900
I think a big eye opening thing for me

539
00:25:38,900 --> 00:25:41,210
was going to see, I'll highlight,

540
00:25:41,210 --> 00:25:43,970
there's a comedy magician named Mack king

541
00:25:43,970 --> 00:25:45,470
who's in Las Vegas.

542
00:25:45,470 --> 00:25:48,550
He's absolutely spectacular,
been doing it a long time.

543
00:25:48,550 --> 00:25:53,211
And if you go see his show,
it just seems so spontaneous.

544
00:25:53,211 --> 00:25:55,940
And he brings people up on stage

545
00:25:55,940 --> 00:25:57,580
and has just so much fun with them.

546
00:25:57,580 --> 00:25:59,670
And you're like, wow, I cannot believe

547
00:25:59,670 --> 00:26:02,810
that he has this kind of
rapport with these people.

548
00:26:02,810 --> 00:26:04,630
And then you go see his show again

549
00:26:04,630 --> 00:26:08,750
and you realize how
incredibly scripted it is.

550
00:26:08,750 --> 00:26:10,810
But every time he brings someone up,

551
00:26:10,810 --> 00:26:13,860
there are those deviations
because he does react differently

552
00:26:13,860 --> 00:26:15,930
for different things, what
they say, what they do,

553
00:26:15,930 --> 00:26:18,430
but he's actively paying attention

554
00:26:18,430 --> 00:26:21,360
and reacting to what they say and do

555
00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:23,160
but then goes right back to script

556
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,960
and in a way that they can
never even perceive it.

557
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:28,980
It just seems... It flows is so naturally.

558
00:26:28,980 --> 00:26:32,085
So yeah I am still trying to develop

559
00:26:32,085 --> 00:26:35,190
that type of communication skill I think.

560
00:26:35,190 --> 00:26:37,530
- I hear in your answer there,

561
00:26:37,530 --> 00:26:41,440
I hear this is repetition is important.

562
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,727
And I think for us as faculty observing

563
00:26:44,727 --> 00:26:48,900
that repetition so that
we can help our learners

564
00:26:48,900 --> 00:26:51,160
get feedback that's relevant,

565
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,413
that's gonna help them fine tune.

566
00:26:54,610 --> 00:26:56,230
We've been rounding with Dr. Quinton,

567
00:26:56,230 --> 00:26:59,540
thank you for taking the time
to discuss this topic with us.

568
00:26:59,540 --> 00:27:01,840
- Happy to be here. Thank
you so much for having me.

569
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,860
- If you'd like to hear
more from Dr. Quinton,

570
00:27:03,860 --> 00:27:06,680
be sure to register for the seventh annual

571
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,760
forensic science symposium.

572
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,870
Dr. Quinton will be presenting
on a variety of topics

573
00:27:11,870 --> 00:27:16,620
at this year's symposium to
be held April 29th, 2022.

574
00:27:16,620 --> 00:27:17,870
For more information,

575
00:27:17,870 --> 00:27:22,460
visit mayocliniclabs.com/22 forensic.

576
00:27:24,540 --> 00:27:27,050
To all of our listeners, thank
you for joining us today.

577
00:27:27,050 --> 00:27:28,860
We invite you to share your thoughts

578
00:27:28,860 --> 00:27:30,970
and suggestions via email.

579
00:27:30,970 --> 00:27:32,500
Please direct any suggestions

580
00:27:32,500 --> 00:27:37,500
to mcleducation@mayo.edu
and reference this podcast.

581
00:27:38,510 --> 00:27:40,930
If you've enjoyed lab
medicine rounds podcast,

582
00:27:40,930 --> 00:27:42,550
please subscribe.

583
00:27:42,550 --> 00:27:44,290
Until our next rounds together.

584
00:27:44,290 --> 00:27:46,500
We encourage you to continue to connect

585
00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:48,570
that medicine in the clinical practice

586
00:27:48,570 --> 00:27:51,371
through insightful conversations.

587
00:27:51,371 --> 00:27:53,954
(upbeat music)