1 00:00:00,180 --> 00:00:02,310 Welcome back to the episode of the Startup Therapy Podcast. 2 00:00:02,310 --> 00:00:04,350 This is Ryan Rutan, joined as always by my 3 00:00:04,350 --> 00:00:07,470 friend, the founder, and CEO of startups.com. 4 00:00:07,950 --> 00:00:12,630 Will, Schroeder will, we're back and it has been a long minute. 5 00:00:12,630 --> 00:00:15,510 We normally push pause in December, but we took an extra 6 00:00:15,510 --> 00:00:19,230 couple of snow days in January and we're, we're finally back. 7 00:00:19,230 --> 00:00:20,070 It feels good. 8 00:00:20,070 --> 00:00:20,080 Yeah. 9 00:00:20,220 --> 00:00:22,050 Yeah, man, it's, it's been like almost two months. 10 00:00:22,050 --> 00:00:24,780 I was getting set up for this call and I was like, what's 11 00:00:24,780 --> 00:00:25,530 everything I need to do? 12 00:00:25,530 --> 00:00:26,730 I kind of forgot about all this. 13 00:00:26,945 --> 00:00:27,455 And, uh, 14 00:00:27,455 --> 00:00:29,884 I've grown and shorn two beards since the last time 15 00:00:29,884 --> 00:00:30,935 we we played this game. 16 00:00:31,535 --> 00:00:35,075 And how apropos, uh, that we're, we're gonna talk about today 17 00:00:35,075 --> 00:00:39,695 is that like we've optimized efficiency into our workflows 18 00:00:39,695 --> 00:00:42,725 and we've optimized things like human connection and talking to 19 00:00:42,725 --> 00:00:44,375 other people right out of it. 20 00:00:44,855 --> 00:00:45,935 You know, we got faster. 21 00:00:46,589 --> 00:00:49,890 But I think we also got lonelier and I'd love to make 22 00:00:49,890 --> 00:00:53,190 today about exploring how that happened, but then also 23 00:00:53,190 --> 00:00:57,959 about like how do we buy some humanity back on purpose? 24 00:00:58,169 --> 00:00:58,860 At this point, 25 00:00:59,190 --> 00:01:00,809 when we were putting this article together, like, you 26 00:01:00,809 --> 00:01:04,050 know, for this podcast, I was thinking to myself, you know, 27 00:01:04,050 --> 00:01:06,780 we've been talking about remote work and you know, kind of like 28 00:01:06,780 --> 00:01:09,595 this, that AI marketplace and we are big proponents of it. 29 00:01:10,260 --> 00:01:10,920 A hundred percent 30 00:01:11,100 --> 00:01:12,780 we're also reasonable people. 31 00:01:12,780 --> 00:01:12,840 Yeah. 32 00:01:13,255 --> 00:01:16,830 And, and, and we're looking at it and we're saying, huh. 33 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,220 And again, having been off for two months, right. 34 00:01:20,220 --> 00:01:22,140 You know, again, we were off in, in December, we were off 35 00:01:22,140 --> 00:01:25,440 in January, and I was like, I don't even have the tools. 36 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,840 Like, you know when, when you and I podcast, right? 37 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:27,900 Yeah. 38 00:01:27,990 --> 00:01:29,520 I get to see you and talk to you, whatever. 39 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:31,050 And obviously you talking throughout the week, but it's 40 00:01:31,380 --> 00:01:34,470 one of the few times in the week that you and I spend, 41 00:01:34,500 --> 00:01:36,900 you know, next to an hour together doing our thing. 42 00:01:37,665 --> 00:01:38,355 That's it. 43 00:01:38,625 --> 00:01:38,775 Right. 44 00:01:40,185 --> 00:01:41,535 I don't podcast with anybody else. 45 00:01:41,535 --> 00:01:43,815 I don't see the rest of our team whatsoever. 46 00:01:43,815 --> 00:01:43,825 Right. 47 00:01:43,825 --> 00:01:43,845 That's exactly 48 00:01:43,845 --> 00:01:43,855 right. 49 00:01:43,995 --> 00:01:44,265 Right. 50 00:01:44,265 --> 00:01:44,325 Yeah. 51 00:01:44,355 --> 00:01:46,995 Other than a couple Zoom calls and 52 00:01:46,995 --> 00:01:47,865 this is our social time. 53 00:01:48,015 --> 00:01:48,435 Yeah. 54 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,195 And, and, and I think it's been years now since COVID, it's 55 00:01:51,195 --> 00:01:53,055 been like five years since, you know, the start of COVID. 56 00:01:53,085 --> 00:01:53,295 Yeah. 57 00:01:53,715 --> 00:01:58,755 And I think the novelty of being able to, to come downstairs 58 00:01:58,755 --> 00:02:01,845 in your pajamas and work is still great, but the part 59 00:02:01,845 --> 00:02:04,125 that comes with not talking to anybody else, like, like, 60 00:02:04,215 --> 00:02:06,195 uh, seeing a human presence that's not your family. 61 00:02:06,195 --> 00:02:06,645 Yeah. 62 00:02:06,735 --> 00:02:06,880 Or like. 63 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:11,370 Days, weeks on end is starting to get gnarly and I think 64 00:02:11,460 --> 00:02:11,820 it is. 65 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,630 What's triggered it more for me is the amount of time that 66 00:02:15,630 --> 00:02:19,605 I'm spending with ai, which is now taking human interaction. 67 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:21,780 Totally off the table. 68 00:02:22,829 --> 00:02:24,570 Dude, this is getting a little scary. 69 00:02:25,079 --> 00:02:26,399 Like this is not a good thing. 70 00:02:26,459 --> 00:02:27,179 How are you seeing it? 71 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,720 A lot of times spent chatting with not a person, but kinda 72 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:32,549 sort of feels like it at times. 73 00:02:32,549 --> 00:02:32,850 Right. 74 00:02:33,299 --> 00:02:35,880 Do you remember when you noticed like. 75 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,110 In the name of productivity you had started subtracting 76 00:02:39,110 --> 00:02:39,980 people from your day. 77 00:02:39,980 --> 00:02:41,900 Do you remember like there, was there a point at which it was 78 00:02:41,900 --> 00:02:44,510 like the balance kind of tipped and you're like, oh shit, like 79 00:02:44,510 --> 00:02:45,500 this is actually happening? 80 00:02:45,710 --> 00:02:46,850 Yeah, it's actually pre COVID. 81 00:02:46,970 --> 00:02:48,920 It's actually when we were all back in the office. 82 00:02:48,980 --> 00:02:49,250 Okay. 83 00:02:49,580 --> 00:02:53,000 When we all had all moved to Slack as our primary like 84 00:02:53,180 --> 00:02:54,350 chat communications tool. 85 00:02:54,620 --> 00:02:54,920 Yeah. 86 00:02:54,920 --> 00:02:58,280 Our office used to be so goddamn loud because it was a completely 87 00:02:58,340 --> 00:03:00,530 open office and so like to talk to chat with somebody, 88 00:03:00,530 --> 00:03:01,550 you had to chat with them. 89 00:03:01,550 --> 00:03:02,220 You literally had to talk 'em. 90 00:03:02,685 --> 00:03:05,655 And then within, call it six months of moving to Slack, 91 00:03:06,045 --> 00:03:07,484 our communication was faster. 92 00:03:07,484 --> 00:03:09,165 Like you could talk to a whole bunch of people at the 93 00:03:09,165 --> 00:03:13,215 same time, but our office was like a library, right? 94 00:03:13,215 --> 00:03:15,975 You'd have no idea that all these people worked there 95 00:03:16,364 --> 00:03:20,055 because other than like a quick like giggle over like a 96 00:03:20,055 --> 00:03:21,375 meme or something like that, 97 00:03:21,495 --> 00:03:21,975 right? 98 00:03:22,035 --> 00:03:25,035 There wasn't a single word, and I was like, hmm. 99 00:03:25,110 --> 00:03:26,580 It doesn't feel right. 100 00:03:27,180 --> 00:03:29,850 I remember a very specific moment at which I realized 101 00:03:29,850 --> 00:03:31,980 that we had turned the corner on something kinda weird. 102 00:03:32,490 --> 00:03:35,190 You remember our desks when we went to the open plan, our desk 103 00:03:35,190 --> 00:03:36,360 sat right beside each other. 104 00:03:36,390 --> 00:03:36,480 Yep. 105 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,760 By a little column between us, but we could literally reach 106 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:39,690 out and touch each other. 107 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:40,170 Yep. 108 00:03:40,170 --> 00:03:42,840 Somebody walked up to my desk at one point and was like, Hey, 109 00:03:42,990 --> 00:03:44,040 do you have a couple minutes? 110 00:03:44,370 --> 00:03:45,900 And I had been sitting there silently for. 111 00:03:46,660 --> 00:03:47,920 15 or 20 minutes, I'm sure. 112 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:48,310 I don't remember. 113 00:03:48,310 --> 00:03:49,270 They sat directly across. 114 00:03:49,270 --> 00:03:49,330 Yeah. 115 00:03:49,330 --> 00:03:51,550 So they were, they were staring at me and finally 116 00:03:51,550 --> 00:03:52,990 came over and said, Hey, do you have a couple minutes? 117 00:03:52,990 --> 00:03:54,730 And I said, yeah, I'm talking to Will. 118 00:03:54,790 --> 00:03:56,830 And they, I remember them like, they looked at you. 119 00:03:56,890 --> 00:03:59,830 They looked back at me and they're like, huh. 120 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:00,610 Right. 121 00:04:00,700 --> 00:04:04,180 I was like, oh yeah, I sort of am and I'm not at the same time. 122 00:04:04,180 --> 00:04:06,190 And I remember that was the moment for me where I 123 00:04:06,190 --> 00:04:08,290 was like, okay, this is, this is a little strange. 124 00:04:08,425 --> 00:04:10,255 Hours on end and not utter a word. 125 00:04:10,495 --> 00:04:12,505 And again, that's just where it started. 126 00:04:12,745 --> 00:04:14,335 And dude, it's gotten way worse. 127 00:04:14,425 --> 00:04:14,665 Right? 128 00:04:14,870 --> 00:04:15,235 Way, way 129 00:04:15,235 --> 00:04:15,595 worse. 130 00:04:15,745 --> 00:04:17,425 And now we're not in an office together. 131 00:04:17,635 --> 00:04:20,425 And again, I'm spending, we'll dig into this. 132 00:04:20,425 --> 00:04:25,135 I'm spending four to five to six solid hours per day. 133 00:04:25,135 --> 00:04:25,285 Yes. 134 00:04:25,705 --> 00:04:27,985 Talking to GPT or you know, whatever, uh, chat 135 00:04:27,990 --> 00:04:29,005 interface I'm using. 136 00:04:29,455 --> 00:04:31,345 So I'm not even talking to humans anymore. 137 00:04:31,825 --> 00:04:32,005 Yeah. 138 00:04:32,005 --> 00:04:32,275 Now. 139 00:04:32,594 --> 00:04:34,664 It is wildly effective. 140 00:04:34,784 --> 00:04:36,344 It is wildly productive. 141 00:04:36,765 --> 00:04:39,945 But when I get up outta my chair at the end of the day and 142 00:04:39,945 --> 00:04:43,664 I go talk to my wife about how the day went, I'm like, huh. 143 00:04:43,965 --> 00:04:46,995 I don't have like a single funny story to tell you, or a quip 144 00:04:46,995 --> 00:04:48,465 or, or anything else like that. 145 00:04:48,885 --> 00:04:53,265 There's one time GPT said like nothing, right? 146 00:04:53,835 --> 00:04:58,395 I gotta imagine if, if it's wearing on me, it's definitely 147 00:04:58,395 --> 00:05:01,125 got gotta be wearing on a lot of other people who never had 148 00:05:01,125 --> 00:05:02,265 those connections to begin with. 149 00:05:02,505 --> 00:05:02,895 Right? 150 00:05:02,955 --> 00:05:03,195 Yeah. 151 00:05:03,195 --> 00:05:05,115 So I think that one, one thing, maybe they don't 152 00:05:05,115 --> 00:05:07,605 notice it as strongly, but that doesn't make it any less 153 00:05:07,605 --> 00:05:08,775 dangerous, I don't think. 154 00:05:08,775 --> 00:05:09,015 Right. 155 00:05:09,015 --> 00:05:10,905 So I, I, I was thinking about this the other day, like 156 00:05:11,295 --> 00:05:14,865 all of the early stage solo founders out there who are just 157 00:05:15,255 --> 00:05:16,365 literally on their own, right? 158 00:05:16,365 --> 00:05:17,835 There isn't another teammate to talk to. 159 00:05:18,225 --> 00:05:19,215 What does that look like? 160 00:05:19,245 --> 00:05:19,545 Right? 161 00:05:19,545 --> 00:05:20,805 So on one hand, I guess you could say, well, at 162 00:05:20,805 --> 00:05:21,585 least there's something. 163 00:05:21,670 --> 00:05:25,120 Thing to talk to now, but I think it's a big challenge. 164 00:05:25,150 --> 00:05:27,220 You know, and look, I have definitely talked 165 00:05:27,220 --> 00:05:29,830 about on the podcast, even when we left the physical 166 00:05:29,830 --> 00:05:30,940 office environment, right? 167 00:05:30,940 --> 00:05:33,100 Specifically when I left and, and you know, it was before we 168 00:05:33,100 --> 00:05:35,320 were actually outta the office, but we were only in the office 169 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:36,160 two days a week at that point. 170 00:05:36,835 --> 00:05:38,755 I left and, and went to Florida, and so I was 171 00:05:38,755 --> 00:05:39,775 physically outta the office. 172 00:05:39,775 --> 00:05:42,985 And one of the things that I noticed was, as a bit of an 173 00:05:42,985 --> 00:05:46,225 empathic introvert, being in an office meant overhearing 174 00:05:46,225 --> 00:05:48,325 lots of things and getting involved in lots of things. 175 00:05:48,325 --> 00:05:48,335 Yeah. 176 00:05:48,335 --> 00:05:50,005 And starting to carry emotional weight and stuff 177 00:05:50,005 --> 00:05:50,785 for a lot of other people. 178 00:05:50,815 --> 00:05:54,115 And so there was this benefit to, to being outside. 179 00:05:54,115 --> 00:05:55,555 And I remember thinking at the time, I was like, man, 180 00:05:55,555 --> 00:05:59,005 I've optimized interruptions out of my and and emotional 181 00:05:59,005 --> 00:06:00,205 baggage outta my calendar. 182 00:06:00,205 --> 00:06:00,955 That's awesome. 183 00:06:01,465 --> 00:06:02,545 I also optimized. 184 00:06:03,060 --> 00:06:05,070 Connections straight outta my life, which 185 00:06:05,070 --> 00:06:06,480 is you don't feel that. 186 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:07,290 You feel the benefit. 187 00:06:07,290 --> 00:06:07,800 Immediately. 188 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:09,030 I felt the benefit in me. 189 00:06:09,390 --> 00:06:11,670 I was like, wow, this is, I have so much more energy now. 190 00:06:11,670 --> 00:06:13,950 I'm not drugged down by all these other side convos 191 00:06:13,950 --> 00:06:14,730 and all this other stuff. 192 00:06:14,850 --> 00:06:17,700 And at some point you go, damn, those were actually. 193 00:06:18,090 --> 00:06:20,280 Pretty, pretty valuable, right? 194 00:06:20,280 --> 00:06:23,400 We've traded availability for true presence. 195 00:06:23,700 --> 00:06:26,280 I mean, we've traded messages sometimes not even to 196 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:29,610 people for conversations, and we didn't really lose 197 00:06:29,610 --> 00:06:32,670 our teams, but we sort of quietly uninvited them, right? 198 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:33,510 That's what I'm saying, man. 199 00:06:33,570 --> 00:06:35,730 And so I think the core of what we're gonna talk about 200 00:06:35,730 --> 00:06:39,060 today is like we've traded productivity for humanity. 201 00:06:40,410 --> 00:06:41,190 Or, or the other way around. 202 00:06:41,190 --> 00:06:43,740 I guess it would trade up our, our humanity for productivity. 203 00:06:44,005 --> 00:06:47,760 And, and it blows my mind because I kind of didn't see 204 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:49,110 all of it happening at once. 205 00:06:49,590 --> 00:06:51,180 And now I'm starting to see it happen. 206 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,300 And I guess what's interesting is I'm watching, I think we 207 00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:58,860 all are watching the floodgates about to burst again, where 208 00:06:58,860 --> 00:07:02,040 AI's going and I'm like, shit. 209 00:07:02,700 --> 00:07:03,780 This is a problem. 210 00:07:04,409 --> 00:07:05,940 And again, you nailed it, Ryan. 211 00:07:06,090 --> 00:07:10,080 There's a lot of people that we help other founders that 212 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:11,219 don't have a team of people. 213 00:07:11,700 --> 00:07:12,000 Right. 214 00:07:12,030 --> 00:07:13,350 Or, here's an interesting one. 215 00:07:13,890 --> 00:07:15,750 You and I have a benefit that we've worked together 216 00:07:15,750 --> 00:07:17,250 for almost 15 years now. 217 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:17,790 Yes. 218 00:07:17,790 --> 00:07:18,990 A very long time. 219 00:07:18,990 --> 00:07:21,420 And most of that time we were spent, you know, physically 220 00:07:21,420 --> 00:07:23,640 in an office, you could build those relationships. 221 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,680 And a lot of other members of our team, the same thing. 222 00:07:25,710 --> 00:07:28,110 You know, we have very long histories with them. 223 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:28,594 Yes, yes. 224 00:07:28,740 --> 00:07:31,620 And so I felt like we've had the benefit. 225 00:07:32,580 --> 00:07:34,710 Of having established those, you know, interpersonal 226 00:07:34,710 --> 00:07:36,660 relationships and then kind of carried them 227 00:07:36,660 --> 00:07:37,770 into COVID and beyond. 228 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:39,510 What if we had none of those? 229 00:07:39,510 --> 00:07:41,280 What if our whole team was all the people that 230 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:42,300 we hired in the last year? 231 00:07:42,930 --> 00:07:44,760 Yeah, it would feel so disconnected. 232 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:50,159 I can't actually imagine what remote first, like if you really 233 00:07:50,159 --> 00:07:51,690 never had that connectivity. 234 00:07:51,690 --> 00:07:54,360 Any anybody on the team that you've ever met with? 235 00:07:54,570 --> 00:07:54,659 Mm-hmm. 236 00:07:54,900 --> 00:07:58,230 In person and or, or maybe you have, but like you haven't 237 00:07:58,230 --> 00:07:59,219 spent significant time with 'em. 238 00:07:59,219 --> 00:08:01,469 Like we, we played hockey, we worked out, we had lunch. 239 00:08:01,620 --> 00:08:04,500 Like we did all this stuff together as a team and I think 240 00:08:04,500 --> 00:08:06,330 that made remote less painful. 241 00:08:06,330 --> 00:08:08,580 I just correct when you start with remote 242 00:08:08,580 --> 00:08:09,659 and I get that maybe. 243 00:08:09,725 --> 00:08:11,705 That's, it just feels normal at that point. 244 00:08:12,005 --> 00:08:14,465 I'm gonna argue that it just isn't, it isn't normal 245 00:08:14,585 --> 00:08:16,595 and that your work product is not gonna be as good. 246 00:08:16,595 --> 00:08:20,015 It's like, yeah, I can ship a dock in half the time now 247 00:08:20,285 --> 00:08:23,525 and I feel half as proud because nobody made, made 248 00:08:23,525 --> 00:08:24,275 it better with me, right? 249 00:08:24,275 --> 00:08:26,645 Like it's just, it's just me doing stuff now. 250 00:08:26,825 --> 00:08:27,650 Lemme challenge that a little bit. 251 00:08:28,455 --> 00:08:29,835 I think we're more productive. 252 00:08:30,015 --> 00:08:31,935 I think we get more shit done, right? 253 00:08:31,935 --> 00:08:32,475 I think so. 254 00:08:32,715 --> 00:08:32,985 Right? 255 00:08:33,164 --> 00:08:34,995 Oh, no, I, well, no, I'm not arguing that at all. 256 00:08:35,025 --> 00:08:37,184 I absolutely, yes, yes. 257 00:08:37,184 --> 00:08:40,275 I, we, we do things twice or more as fast than we used to. 258 00:08:40,424 --> 00:08:40,664 Right? 259 00:08:40,664 --> 00:08:40,674 Right. 260 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:41,039 A hundred percent. 261 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,540 At the expense of this little thing called humanity, which 262 00:08:45,540 --> 00:08:49,560 by the way, like in the past, like decades and decades, you 263 00:08:49,560 --> 00:08:52,830 know, and centuries of building businesses wasn't necessarily 264 00:08:52,830 --> 00:08:54,000 a thing people talked about. 265 00:08:54,030 --> 00:08:54,960 'cause it wasn't an issue, 266 00:08:55,170 --> 00:08:55,380 right? 267 00:08:55,470 --> 00:08:56,640 No, it was a foregone conclusion. 268 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:58,860 It was, it was a necessary part of the puzzle. 269 00:08:59,190 --> 00:09:01,500 And so let's start to talk about how the hell we got here. 270 00:09:02,340 --> 00:09:02,460 Sure. 271 00:09:02,460 --> 00:09:06,240 Because I think it's important to talk about how every time we 272 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,410 make a decision in a race for a productivity, how humanity 273 00:09:10,410 --> 00:09:13,920 has the, the humanity factor that was never a factor before. 274 00:09:14,580 --> 00:09:14,790 Yeah. 275 00:09:14,790 --> 00:09:19,380 Has become not just a, a casualty, but maybe like. 276 00:09:19,860 --> 00:09:20,880 It ain't coming back. 277 00:09:20,940 --> 00:09:22,320 You know, and again, we'll talk about how to get it 278 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,060 back, but like, let's talk about how we got here. 279 00:09:24,270 --> 00:09:25,230 Yeah, I agree with that. 280 00:09:25,230 --> 00:09:27,900 I think it is a casualty and I think it could come 281 00:09:27,900 --> 00:09:30,120 back, but I don't think it's, I don't necessarily know 282 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:31,290 that it's a natural cycle. 283 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,570 I think that this is one of those things where it will 284 00:09:33,570 --> 00:09:35,670 take a very deliberate action. 285 00:09:35,820 --> 00:09:36,000 Right. 286 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,170 So let's talk about, we got here, right? 287 00:09:37,170 --> 00:09:40,980 We, we all started racing towards productivity 288 00:09:41,165 --> 00:09:42,025 and efficiency. 289 00:09:42,125 --> 00:09:42,545 Mm-hmm. 290 00:09:42,630 --> 00:09:46,020 You know, slack replaced hallways, zoom replaced rooms. 291 00:09:46,050 --> 00:09:47,940 AI replaced the urge to even. 292 00:09:48,170 --> 00:09:49,970 Ask somebody something, right? 293 00:09:49,970 --> 00:09:50,300 Every 294 00:09:50,300 --> 00:09:50,750 time. 295 00:09:50,750 --> 00:09:51,050 Holy hell, 296 00:09:51,230 --> 00:09:53,900 we high fived the shit out of each other, right 297 00:09:54,380 --> 00:09:55,310 when we did it right? 298 00:09:55,310 --> 00:09:57,110 Like I love Slack, right? 299 00:09:57,110 --> 00:09:58,520 I absolutely love Slack. 300 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,939 And I'll say this, I love Slack as opposed to email. 301 00:10:02,310 --> 00:10:05,040 Like the only time I get an email from anybody in the 302 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:06,569 company now is when they quit. 303 00:10:07,740 --> 00:10:07,890 Yep. 304 00:10:07,950 --> 00:10:10,980 Like email is the equivalent of a certified letter now, right? 305 00:10:10,980 --> 00:10:11,730 Yeah, it's exactly. 306 00:10:11,730 --> 00:10:12,569 Nothing good comes up, right? 307 00:10:12,569 --> 00:10:15,510 You never get a certified letter that says, we love you so much. 308 00:10:15,660 --> 00:10:16,800 You know, mom and dad, right? 309 00:10:16,805 --> 00:10:17,550 Like, yeah. 310 00:10:17,939 --> 00:10:19,260 So it's like the worst possible. 311 00:10:19,319 --> 00:10:22,410 And so I only get an uh, an email Now, like I said, 312 00:10:22,439 --> 00:10:25,530 when something's horrible that said, I hated email 313 00:10:25,650 --> 00:10:26,700 because it was slow. 314 00:10:26,700 --> 00:10:27,750 It was, you know, and that was, you know. 315 00:10:27,810 --> 00:10:27,869 Yeah. 316 00:10:28,170 --> 00:10:29,729 People looked at email being faster, right. 317 00:10:29,729 --> 00:10:34,290 I hated email and Slack was like this perfect blend of 318 00:10:34,290 --> 00:10:36,359 when you just had a simple thing you needed to say to me, 319 00:10:36,510 --> 00:10:38,729 you could just say it, and it didn't become an email thread. 320 00:10:39,180 --> 00:10:39,510 Right? 321 00:10:39,569 --> 00:10:39,780 Yeah. 322 00:10:39,839 --> 00:10:40,530 And I loved it. 323 00:10:41,130 --> 00:10:43,979 I loved how all of a sudden I was talking to so many 324 00:10:43,979 --> 00:10:46,979 other people because the, the cost of that touch, 325 00:10:46,979 --> 00:10:48,135 so to speak, was so low. 326 00:10:48,855 --> 00:10:49,815 Transactional time. 327 00:10:49,815 --> 00:10:50,655 Nearly zero. 328 00:10:50,895 --> 00:10:51,555 Exactly. 329 00:10:52,035 --> 00:10:55,155 But then all of a sudden, Ryan, who sits next to me, 330 00:10:55,155 --> 00:10:58,455 12 to 14 hours a day, he and I have an exchange. 331 00:10:58,455 --> 00:10:59,865 We've talked all day, so to speak. 332 00:10:59,865 --> 00:11:01,845 We've communicated all day, I should say. 333 00:11:01,875 --> 00:11:02,145 Right. 334 00:11:02,715 --> 00:11:04,635 But we haven't said a single word to each other. 335 00:11:04,785 --> 00:11:06,165 That's what I could tell. 336 00:11:06,165 --> 00:11:09,375 And you're saying the same thing that okay, maybe that's 337 00:11:09,375 --> 00:11:10,395 worth making that trade. 338 00:11:10,815 --> 00:11:10,935 Okay. 339 00:11:10,935 --> 00:11:13,485 Maybe, you know, maybe we're, we're getting more done so 340 00:11:13,485 --> 00:11:17,295 in in any of it, we missed the part where we lost our 341 00:11:17,295 --> 00:11:18,465 humanity because of it. 342 00:11:19,035 --> 00:11:21,195 We had plenty of other ways to like, you know, we're at lunches 343 00:11:21,195 --> 00:11:23,295 and stuff like that, so we had plenty of other ways to like 344 00:11:23,295 --> 00:11:24,265 recapture that touch point. 345 00:11:25,245 --> 00:11:26,145 We never got it back. 346 00:11:26,415 --> 00:11:26,864 We didn't. 347 00:11:27,074 --> 00:11:27,495 That's it. 348 00:11:27,734 --> 00:11:28,064 That's it. 349 00:11:28,064 --> 00:11:30,165 You know, we used to whiteboard together for hours. 350 00:11:30,165 --> 00:11:32,084 Now we, we used to whiteboard for three. 351 00:11:32,084 --> 00:11:32,175 Right? 352 00:11:32,415 --> 00:11:34,484 Now I prompt for six. 353 00:11:34,604 --> 00:11:34,995 Right. 354 00:11:35,265 --> 00:11:36,795 And call that collaboration somehow. 355 00:11:36,795 --> 00:11:39,045 And I, I think one of the, the things where like, there's 356 00:11:39,045 --> 00:11:42,285 definitely, there's an increase in individual productivity, 357 00:11:42,405 --> 00:11:45,555 but one of the things that I'm seeing more and more, because 358 00:11:45,555 --> 00:11:48,944 of the amount of productivity we have, the amount of, let's 359 00:11:48,944 --> 00:11:53,204 say content or collaboration or thinking that we can crank out. 360 00:11:53,755 --> 00:11:55,855 It makes it really hard to catch everybody else up. 361 00:11:56,085 --> 00:11:56,145 Yeah. 362 00:11:56,745 --> 00:11:58,275 One of the things that, because we're not doing 363 00:11:58,275 --> 00:11:58,995 this together, right? 364 00:11:58,995 --> 00:12:00,705 It used to be that we'd, you know, we'd whiteboard in a 365 00:12:00,705 --> 00:12:02,955 room together and everybody sort of had some, at least some 366 00:12:02,955 --> 00:12:04,395 overlap and shared context. 367 00:12:04,455 --> 00:12:04,695 Yeah. 368 00:12:04,935 --> 00:12:07,395 I'm finding it harder and harder because we've stripped 369 00:12:07,395 --> 00:12:09,285 the humanity out of this to make sure that everybody's 370 00:12:09,285 --> 00:12:11,955 on the same page and that we do have enough of that shared 371 00:12:11,955 --> 00:12:13,425 context that we understand it. 372 00:12:13,485 --> 00:12:14,635 Right when, right when you're not. 373 00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:18,770 Part of the genesis, simply looking at the final outcome 374 00:12:18,770 --> 00:12:20,750 and like, okay, this is the distillation of a whole 375 00:12:20,750 --> 00:12:23,270 bunch of thought and effort on my part and, and chat 376 00:12:23,270 --> 00:12:24,650 GBT or Gemini or whatever. 377 00:12:24,709 --> 00:12:24,890 Yeah. 378 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,760 When you're not part of that, it's you, you lose so much. 379 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:30,620 To me, there's so much texture loss, and I don't just mean 380 00:12:30,620 --> 00:12:33,590 that in terms of like just the human component, but actually 381 00:12:33,590 --> 00:12:36,050 understanding and, and making it something that's useful 382 00:12:36,050 --> 00:12:39,170 to someone other than you has become harder, in my opinion. 383 00:12:39,319 --> 00:12:40,610 Let's, let's continue this timeline. 384 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,930 Let's, uh, we go to remote work and we did remote work 385 00:12:43,930 --> 00:12:45,820 long before it was cool to do remote work, right? 386 00:12:46,030 --> 00:12:46,150 Yes. 387 00:12:46,180 --> 00:12:47,410 Like, like 15 years ago. 388 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:48,040 Yeah. 389 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:48,050 Yeah. 390 00:12:48,490 --> 00:12:49,540 Work from home Wednesdays. 391 00:12:49,630 --> 00:12:49,870 Yeah. 392 00:12:49,900 --> 00:12:50,230 Correct. 393 00:12:50,260 --> 00:12:50,590 Right. 394 00:12:50,890 --> 00:12:54,010 And it worked great because we were mostly interacting 395 00:12:54,010 --> 00:12:56,650 with each other, but I think you might have moved by the 396 00:12:56,650 --> 00:12:59,170 time we got to the point where work from home Wednesdays 397 00:12:59,170 --> 00:13:01,840 became work from home Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. 398 00:13:02,140 --> 00:13:03,070 We were already there. 399 00:13:03,250 --> 00:13:03,580 Okay. 400 00:13:03,585 --> 00:13:03,675 Okay. 401 00:13:03,675 --> 00:13:03,835 Got 402 00:13:03,835 --> 00:13:03,875 it. 403 00:13:03,875 --> 00:13:03,995 Yep. 404 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:05,110 We were already, yeah, we were already there. 405 00:13:05,110 --> 00:13:06,730 So we were only in the office two days a week. 406 00:13:06,939 --> 00:13:07,270 Right. 407 00:13:07,330 --> 00:13:09,035 And at that point, I could already feel it. 408 00:13:09,705 --> 00:13:12,075 I could already, I could already feel something missing also, 409 00:13:12,075 --> 00:13:16,035 for what it's worth back then, because remote work wasn't like 410 00:13:16,035 --> 00:13:17,295 a thing people were used to. 411 00:13:17,655 --> 00:13:17,805 Yeah. 412 00:13:17,805 --> 00:13:19,425 It was more tantamount to days off. 413 00:13:20,325 --> 00:13:20,445 Yeah. 414 00:13:20,445 --> 00:13:23,355 It wasn't as much, it was remote work sort of. 415 00:13:23,505 --> 00:13:23,805 Right. 416 00:13:23,865 --> 00:13:27,375 It was because office still was tantamount to work. 417 00:13:27,735 --> 00:13:28,035 Right? 418 00:13:28,065 --> 00:13:28,305 Yeah. 419 00:13:28,605 --> 00:13:30,225 Not office was tanto. 420 00:13:30,255 --> 00:13:30,975 I'll do some work. 421 00:13:31,290 --> 00:13:31,650 Right. 422 00:13:32,069 --> 00:13:35,790 And so I also saw like on our Fridays, like our 423 00:13:35,790 --> 00:13:37,079 Fridays almost disappeared. 424 00:13:37,410 --> 00:13:38,790 We didn't increase productivity. 425 00:13:38,790 --> 00:13:39,630 That was just people notworthy. 426 00:13:39,930 --> 00:13:40,829 They just had a three day weekend. 427 00:13:41,069 --> 00:13:44,520 My point is, at least back then, we still had a touch 428 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:45,900 point of humanity, right? 429 00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:47,579 We were still seeing each other, et cetera. 430 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,970 Not soon thereafter, COVID hits in COVID. 431 00:13:50,970 --> 00:13:50,980 Yeah. 432 00:13:50,980 --> 00:13:53,010 And COVID force feeds everybody into remote work. 433 00:13:53,430 --> 00:13:54,840 And at first. 434 00:13:55,395 --> 00:13:56,325 I really liked it. 435 00:13:56,325 --> 00:13:59,175 I'm gonna be honest, I loved not having to go to work. 436 00:13:59,205 --> 00:14:02,025 I, lemme put it this way, even after everything we're gonna 437 00:14:02,025 --> 00:14:05,415 say today, if you said tomorrow that in order to keep doing 438 00:14:05,415 --> 00:14:08,025 my job@startups.com, I would have to go back to an office, I 439 00:14:08,025 --> 00:14:09,765 would quit my job@startups.com. 440 00:14:10,155 --> 00:14:11,775 That's how much I don't ever want to go back 441 00:14:11,775 --> 00:14:12,495 to an office, right? 442 00:14:12,675 --> 00:14:15,345 This isn't me making a turn from all that we've said before 443 00:14:15,345 --> 00:14:17,115 in saying, you know, I really wanna go back to an office. 444 00:14:17,860 --> 00:14:19,360 We're not about to send everybody an email that 445 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:20,710 says, you gotta come back to an office, guys. 446 00:14:20,710 --> 00:14:20,770 Yeah. 447 00:14:20,770 --> 00:14:22,510 There's, there's any, the team that's listening. 448 00:14:22,510 --> 00:14:24,580 Don't, don't be scurred you, you're safe. 449 00:14:24,580 --> 00:14:24,610 I 450 00:14:24,790 --> 00:14:27,160 guarantee there is no return to work mandate coming 451 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:28,210 from this company anyway. 452 00:14:28,540 --> 00:14:31,120 But in the first year, I think because COVID was 453 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,940 such a, it was such an overlapping specter, right? 454 00:14:33,940 --> 00:14:34,690 You couldn't go anywhere. 455 00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:35,050 Right. 456 00:14:35,050 --> 00:14:37,510 So like, it felt like a sick day, except it 457 00:14:37,510 --> 00:14:38,440 lasted like two years 458 00:14:38,710 --> 00:14:39,070 forever. 459 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:39,340 Yeah. 460 00:14:39,460 --> 00:14:39,910 Right, right. 461 00:14:40,750 --> 00:14:43,570 So, so again, now we're all hopping on Zoom. 462 00:14:44,115 --> 00:14:44,475 Right. 463 00:14:44,955 --> 00:14:46,245 And Zoom becomes the thing. 464 00:14:46,485 --> 00:14:48,855 And at first it's new, it's novel. 465 00:14:48,855 --> 00:14:50,325 Like, hey, you could see everybody talk to 466 00:14:50,325 --> 00:14:51,015 everybody, et cetera. 467 00:14:51,045 --> 00:14:51,165 Yep. 468 00:14:51,435 --> 00:14:53,505 In the not too distant future it, it will wind 469 00:14:53,505 --> 00:14:54,435 up becoming the default. 470 00:14:54,555 --> 00:14:57,465 Like that's how you interact with people, a personal level. 471 00:14:57,795 --> 00:15:00,105 And then I started to see it because we were using 472 00:15:00,105 --> 00:15:03,795 it so much that Zoom, it was better than nothing. 473 00:15:03,795 --> 00:15:05,715 It was better than, you know, the slack interaction we had. 474 00:15:06,075 --> 00:15:06,255 Sure. 475 00:15:06,255 --> 00:15:09,375 But it was hard to persist like nobody wanted to be on a Zoom 476 00:15:09,375 --> 00:15:10,725 for hours and hours on end. 477 00:15:11,339 --> 00:15:11,610 Oh yeah. 478 00:15:11,729 --> 00:15:13,199 Zoom fatigue was a very real thing. 479 00:15:13,260 --> 00:15:13,829 Correct? 480 00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:14,160 Right. 481 00:15:14,430 --> 00:15:17,969 And at some point it became a liability, right? 482 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:18,060 Yeah. 483 00:15:18,060 --> 00:15:20,550 It was like there's something about being stuck 484 00:15:20,550 --> 00:15:23,130 on camera that drains you. 485 00:15:23,340 --> 00:15:26,190 I mean, the phone is kinda the same thing, but dude, I can 486 00:15:26,190 --> 00:15:27,300 be on Slack 14 hours a day. 487 00:15:27,300 --> 00:15:27,930 I don't even think about it. 488 00:15:28,260 --> 00:15:30,720 So there was actually some super interesting research 489 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:32,970 around this that said that being on a phone would actually be 490 00:15:32,970 --> 00:15:35,250 significantly easier for people because one of the things that 491 00:15:35,250 --> 00:15:38,280 we, we do when we can visually engage sort of with a person, 492 00:15:38,340 --> 00:15:38,550 yeah. 493 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,940 We're built to, to look for all these additional 494 00:15:41,940 --> 00:15:43,710 non-verbal cues. 495 00:15:43,740 --> 00:15:44,305 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 496 00:15:44,305 --> 00:15:45,970 And body language, all these things that. 497 00:15:46,275 --> 00:15:48,915 When you have these little boxes instead of actual people in a 498 00:15:48,915 --> 00:15:53,084 room or you can't see the entire body, our body, we are mentally, 499 00:15:53,084 --> 00:15:54,824 we're still looking for this stuff and we can't find it. 500 00:15:54,824 --> 00:15:57,225 Ah, and so that's actually a huge part of where the 501 00:15:57,255 --> 00:15:58,334 zoom fatigue came from. 502 00:15:58,334 --> 00:15:59,805 Some really fascinating research 503 00:16:00,074 --> 00:16:01,814 around this time, and I think this is important 504 00:16:01,814 --> 00:16:02,535 to the folks listening. 505 00:16:02,805 --> 00:16:05,990 We had launched our founder group's product that was you. 506 00:16:06,105 --> 00:16:09,165 Our ability to be able to get eight people in a room and. 507 00:16:09,230 --> 00:16:11,120 Talk about stuff we were dealing with, right? 508 00:16:11,330 --> 00:16:14,450 Remember in 2019 when that was gonna be an in-person product? 509 00:16:14,660 --> 00:16:16,490 I mean, god damn man. 510 00:16:16,490 --> 00:16:16,700 Like 511 00:16:17,905 --> 00:16:20,750 COVID was like, rethink that one. 512 00:16:20,810 --> 00:16:23,510 The launch date for that product, for a national 513 00:16:23,510 --> 00:16:26,210 launch in every city was, I remember this 514 00:16:26,210 --> 00:16:28,250 specifically, March of 2021. 515 00:16:28,655 --> 00:16:28,880 Yes. 516 00:16:29,270 --> 00:16:29,570 Yep. 517 00:16:30,945 --> 00:16:31,400 Like the worst. 518 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:31,680 Nope, 519 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:31,700 the worst 520 00:16:32,685 --> 00:16:32,775 not 521 00:16:32,775 --> 00:16:33,225 happening. 522 00:16:33,285 --> 00:16:36,135 So we moved it to Zoom and the idea was we'll be able to 523 00:16:36,135 --> 00:16:37,965 have the same interactions, but we'll do it over Zoom 524 00:16:38,235 --> 00:16:39,825 and it never materialized it. 525 00:16:39,825 --> 00:16:40,845 Everybody tried it. 526 00:16:40,935 --> 00:16:42,165 Everybody tried it, right? 527 00:16:42,435 --> 00:16:43,605 And it worked zero. 528 00:16:43,755 --> 00:16:46,395 It turns out that the in-person, uh, aspect of 529 00:16:46,395 --> 00:16:47,835 it is so much different. 530 00:16:47,925 --> 00:16:50,025 Like the texture of it is so much different, right? 531 00:16:50,085 --> 00:16:50,385 Yes. 532 00:16:51,135 --> 00:16:53,415 We got through COVID and all of a sudden remote work 533 00:16:53,415 --> 00:16:55,365 became like tried and tested. 534 00:16:55,665 --> 00:16:55,995 Right? 535 00:16:56,385 --> 00:16:58,245 And again, I'm a huge fan of remote work. 536 00:16:58,245 --> 00:16:58,755 So same. 537 00:16:58,755 --> 00:17:00,555 This isn't me making an argument against it. 538 00:17:01,005 --> 00:17:03,885 What I am gonna say is we once again chi that 539 00:17:03,885 --> 00:17:05,175 away at our humanity. 540 00:17:05,535 --> 00:17:06,045 A hundred percent. 541 00:17:06,135 --> 00:17:08,595 We removed friction, but we also accidentally removed 542 00:17:08,595 --> 00:17:11,204 quite a bit of meaning and interaction at the same time. 543 00:17:11,385 --> 00:17:14,204 But I'll say this, but at least we were still 544 00:17:14,204 --> 00:17:16,035 interacting with each other. 545 00:17:16,485 --> 00:17:16,694 Yes. 546 00:17:17,235 --> 00:17:17,415 Like 547 00:17:17,415 --> 00:17:17,775 yes. 548 00:17:18,224 --> 00:17:19,905 Which brings us to the final straw. 549 00:17:20,325 --> 00:17:23,325 GPT shows up and I'm using GPT universally to to mean 550 00:17:23,505 --> 00:17:28,275 all chatbots or AI in general, and all of a sudden we're 551 00:17:28,275 --> 00:17:29,175 all enamored by it, right? 552 00:17:29,175 --> 00:17:31,095 We all jump on it, we're solving problems with it, 553 00:17:31,095 --> 00:17:33,405 we're doing cool stuff with it, whatever, and all of a 554 00:17:33,405 --> 00:17:38,625 sudden I look up and I realize I've been on GPT for five 555 00:17:38,625 --> 00:17:43,785 straight hours at the expense of talking to a single human. 556 00:17:43,830 --> 00:17:48,030 Now, dude, I am wildly productive on this thing, right? 557 00:17:48,030 --> 00:17:52,320 I've never been more productive at the expense Yes. 558 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:53,669 Of any level of humanity. 559 00:17:54,210 --> 00:17:57,330 And I'm looking down the barrel of this gun man, and I'm like, 560 00:17:57,330 --> 00:17:59,310 this is not gonna get better. 561 00:17:59,370 --> 00:18:00,210 It's terrifying. 562 00:18:00,210 --> 00:18:03,030 Let me level up on that for a second, because I found myself 563 00:18:03,030 --> 00:18:05,939 a couple weeks ago having built out a bunch of automations 564 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,820 and using multi-model chat. 565 00:18:09,585 --> 00:18:13,600 I was watching some chatbots talk to each other. 566 00:18:14,294 --> 00:18:15,344 For like three hours. 567 00:18:15,495 --> 00:18:17,024 I wasn't even participating. 568 00:18:17,024 --> 00:18:18,584 I set it up and I hit run. 569 00:18:18,854 --> 00:18:18,975 Yep. 570 00:18:18,975 --> 00:18:21,344 And then I literally sat and it, it's like I was 571 00:18:21,344 --> 00:18:24,104 watching CNN or, or no C-span. 572 00:18:24,225 --> 00:18:25,875 I was just watching stuff play out. 573 00:18:25,875 --> 00:18:25,995 Right. 574 00:18:25,995 --> 00:18:27,764 I was just watching people have conversations. 575 00:18:27,824 --> 00:18:28,215 Yeah. 576 00:18:28,215 --> 00:18:28,544 Man. 577 00:18:28,604 --> 00:18:31,304 And then I, I stopped and I'm like, what is happening? 578 00:18:31,395 --> 00:18:31,604 Right. 579 00:18:31,604 --> 00:18:34,304 Like I'm now no longer looking out and imagining dystopia. 580 00:18:34,304 --> 00:18:35,625 I'm, I'm literally sitting in it. 581 00:18:35,895 --> 00:18:36,375 Right. 582 00:18:36,524 --> 00:18:39,614 And so again, I get up at the crack of dawn, right. 583 00:18:39,614 --> 00:18:41,354 You and I talk who are in very different time zones. 584 00:18:41,354 --> 00:18:41,445 Oh yeah. 585 00:18:41,445 --> 00:18:42,735 What are we, six, six hours apart? 586 00:18:43,304 --> 00:18:43,574 Yep. 587 00:18:44,385 --> 00:18:47,325 So if, if I'm up at four or 5:00 AM uh, like today 588 00:18:47,415 --> 00:18:49,245 and I'm pinging you, what time would it be? 589 00:18:49,365 --> 00:18:49,875 It's, 590 00:18:50,295 --> 00:18:51,045 eh, 10 some. 591 00:18:51,045 --> 00:18:53,235 We usually pop on between 10 and 11 my time. 592 00:18:53,504 --> 00:18:53,805 Right. 593 00:18:53,985 --> 00:18:55,665 And you and I have great chats in the morning. 594 00:18:55,665 --> 00:18:57,315 You know, it's kinda like before everybody 595 00:18:57,315 --> 00:18:58,125 else wakes up, you know? 596 00:18:58,155 --> 00:18:58,545 It's great. 597 00:18:58,545 --> 00:18:58,785 Yes. 598 00:18:59,115 --> 00:19:01,665 And I realize that's becoming more and more the 599 00:19:01,665 --> 00:19:04,515 last time we talk, I mean like on a consistent basis. 600 00:19:04,545 --> 00:19:04,815 Yes. 601 00:19:04,845 --> 00:19:05,025 Right? 602 00:19:05,025 --> 00:19:05,615 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 603 00:19:05,655 --> 00:19:07,605 There's a lot of dialogue at that point, right? 604 00:19:07,605 --> 00:19:09,165 Like if you look at our slacks, there's probably. 605 00:19:10,139 --> 00:19:12,209 A hundred to 200 messages in that period. 606 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:12,449 Yep. 607 00:19:12,750 --> 00:19:15,419 And then the rest of the day maybe has 20, 608 00:19:15,810 --> 00:19:17,879 bro, we're right back where we started. 609 00:19:18,179 --> 00:19:21,179 We're sitting next to each other without communicating a single 610 00:19:21,179 --> 00:19:24,030 word in this case, because all of that extra dialogue 611 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:26,820 has now been consumed by GPT. 612 00:19:27,330 --> 00:19:27,570 Right. 613 00:19:27,570 --> 00:19:27,629 Yeah. 614 00:19:27,629 --> 00:19:30,419 I'm having endless conversations with GBT. 615 00:19:30,419 --> 00:19:32,010 Again, if you look back at those timestamps. 616 00:19:32,415 --> 00:19:34,485 You know, when you get past the wee hours of the morning, 617 00:19:34,785 --> 00:19:38,325 all my time stands for in GPT and I've got so many parallel 618 00:19:38,325 --> 00:19:42,285 conversations going, there's no way I could do anywhere near 619 00:19:42,285 --> 00:19:43,155 the level of what I'm doing. 620 00:19:43,155 --> 00:19:45,015 And I know you're the same with a human. 621 00:19:45,465 --> 00:19:45,555 Yeah. 622 00:19:45,555 --> 00:19:46,425 And it's phenomenal. 623 00:19:46,485 --> 00:19:48,015 My productivity is phenomenal. 624 00:19:48,195 --> 00:19:48,555 Right. 625 00:19:48,765 --> 00:19:51,945 But I no longer talk to humans when I'm doing that. 626 00:19:51,945 --> 00:19:52,695 Yeah, right. 627 00:19:52,995 --> 00:19:54,555 And I don't have a cooler way to say it. 628 00:19:54,765 --> 00:19:56,205 That is wildly terrifying. 629 00:19:56,790 --> 00:19:58,170 That is wildly terrifying. 630 00:19:58,230 --> 00:20:01,530 It's a cost we didn't model for at, at all, right. 631 00:20:01,530 --> 00:20:03,030 We, you know, but it's new. 632 00:20:03,030 --> 00:20:06,120 We understood, I guess, look, speed and productivity 633 00:20:06,150 --> 00:20:07,290 had had a price tag. 634 00:20:07,290 --> 00:20:09,900 What we didn't look at was that the invoice 635 00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:11,430 line reads isolation. 636 00:20:12,030 --> 00:20:12,120 Right. 637 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,960 So like that's where we're at now, and I think we, we look 638 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:16,740 at some of the things that. 639 00:20:16,765 --> 00:20:19,645 I would've even considered inefficient before and 640 00:20:19,645 --> 00:20:22,495 just sort of things that I was happy to have go away. 641 00:20:22,795 --> 00:20:24,895 Like all those little side interactions that I 642 00:20:24,895 --> 00:20:26,785 felt were just weighing me down and wearing me 643 00:20:26,785 --> 00:20:29,935 out, and man, laughter was never an inefficiency. 644 00:20:29,935 --> 00:20:31,405 Not that I ever was against laughter, but 645 00:20:31,405 --> 00:20:32,755 like it was a glue. 646 00:20:32,755 --> 00:20:34,405 I didn't account for what it was. 647 00:20:34,585 --> 00:20:34,885 Right? 648 00:20:34,975 --> 00:20:35,275 Yes. 649 00:20:35,275 --> 00:20:37,105 There were times where it interrupted, or like, yes, 650 00:20:37,105 --> 00:20:38,905 sometimes we interrupted people's work with things 651 00:20:38,905 --> 00:20:42,025 like our NBA jam cabinet playing that thing at four 652 00:20:42,025 --> 00:20:43,195 30 instead of five 30. 653 00:20:43,905 --> 00:20:47,175 And it did feel, it did feel like an interruption 654 00:20:47,175 --> 00:20:50,415 to work, but man, it was part of the fabric. 655 00:20:50,475 --> 00:20:51,885 It was super important. 656 00:20:51,885 --> 00:20:54,585 You know something that's really funny about everything 657 00:20:54,585 --> 00:20:58,065 we talk about here is that none of it is new. 658 00:20:58,305 --> 00:21:00,885 Everything you're dealing with right now has been done a 659 00:21:00,885 --> 00:21:04,725 thousand times before you, which means the answer already exists. 660 00:21:04,725 --> 00:21:05,605 You may just not know it. 661 00:21:05,810 --> 00:21:06,590 But that's okay. 662 00:21:06,950 --> 00:21:08,780 That's kind of what we're here to do. 663 00:21:08,780 --> 00:21:10,909 We talk about this stuff on the show, but 664 00:21:10,909 --> 00:21:12,110 we actually solve these 665 00:21:12,110 --> 00:21:15,590 problems all dayLong@groups.startups.com. 666 00:21:15,620 --> 00:21:18,919 So if any of this sounds familiar, stop guessing 667 00:21:18,950 --> 00:21:21,950 about what to do, let us just give you the answers to the 668 00:21:21,950 --> 00:21:23,330 test and be done with it. 669 00:21:23,690 --> 00:21:27,590 Once I got into GPT, a lot of what I'm doing now is I'm 670 00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:30,620 saying to myself, well, if I can get this resolved in GPT, 671 00:21:31,010 --> 00:21:33,455 then I don't have to, uh, bother one of my coworkers. 672 00:21:34,275 --> 00:21:34,605 Yes. 673 00:21:34,635 --> 00:21:34,785 Right. 674 00:21:35,055 --> 00:21:37,545 Our CTO uh, posted something in Slack a couple hours 675 00:21:37,545 --> 00:21:39,645 ago and said, here's a new version of cel, how it's 676 00:21:39,645 --> 00:21:42,345 gonna normalize, like how it communicates to other ais. 677 00:21:42,585 --> 00:21:46,065 And I had a question for him about like, like, how is that 678 00:21:46,065 --> 00:21:48,285 different than what we've been doing in that platform before? 679 00:21:48,585 --> 00:21:48,705 Yeah. 680 00:21:48,705 --> 00:21:51,465 And I was like, well, if I ask him, then I'm 681 00:21:51,465 --> 00:21:52,635 gonna be taking up time. 682 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:54,750 He could otherwise, you know, be writing code. 683 00:21:55,050 --> 00:21:57,630 So I'm gonna take its GPT, uh, where I can 684 00:21:57,630 --> 00:21:58,560 also feel less stupid. 685 00:21:59,790 --> 00:22:00,720 It's that and do there. 686 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:01,080 Right, 687 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:01,090 right. 688 00:22:01,140 --> 00:22:01,320 It's 689 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:02,070 that thought about it. 690 00:22:02,070 --> 00:22:03,390 Go ask two hours ago judgment. 691 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:03,930 Right? 692 00:22:03,935 --> 00:22:04,005 Yeah. 693 00:22:04,005 --> 00:22:06,540 And I thought about it and I'm like, okay, maybe 694 00:22:06,540 --> 00:22:08,190 he didn't wanna answer that question for me. 695 00:22:08,190 --> 00:22:08,370 Right. 696 00:22:08,370 --> 00:22:10,805 Or maybe conversely, maybe he wanted talk about, maybe 697 00:22:10,805 --> 00:22:11,045 he didn't, 698 00:22:11,065 --> 00:22:12,000 that's why he posted. 699 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,520 Yeah, maybe he'd rather you have his answer so that he also knows 700 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:17,689 you have an answer to that. 701 00:22:17,689 --> 00:22:17,780 Yep. 702 00:22:18,169 --> 00:22:19,790 This is one of the things like we're all absorbing 703 00:22:19,790 --> 00:22:23,120 information and generating stuff so fast that it's hard 704 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:25,939 to keep up with what anyone else is doing and what they 705 00:22:25,939 --> 00:22:27,320 know and what they don't. 706 00:22:27,470 --> 00:22:27,710 Yep. 707 00:22:27,830 --> 00:22:29,120 And it's creating some real. 708 00:22:29,185 --> 00:22:32,485 Danger in my opinion, man, like used to be, you know, you said 709 00:22:32,485 --> 00:22:35,185 it now, like you'll just go GPT it yourself, but like used to 710 00:22:35,185 --> 00:22:36,565 be that old the retort, right? 711 00:22:36,565 --> 00:22:37,675 Let me Google that for you. 712 00:22:37,764 --> 00:22:38,185 Yeah, right. 713 00:22:38,190 --> 00:22:38,379 Right. 714 00:22:38,695 --> 00:22:41,034 Now it's like, let me, let me go chat GPT that for you, you 715 00:22:41,034 --> 00:22:44,215 know, because, because at this point what can't you go and find 716 00:22:44,215 --> 00:22:47,514 out at least a reasonable answer for an answer damn near nothing 717 00:22:47,575 --> 00:22:49,405 and 80% answer at least. 718 00:22:49,435 --> 00:22:49,585 Yep. 719 00:22:49,615 --> 00:22:49,915 Right. 720 00:22:50,095 --> 00:22:53,395 And I thought about that and I am like, shit, that's 721 00:22:53,395 --> 00:22:56,395 yet another thing that's gonna cause me to not have 722 00:22:56,395 --> 00:22:57,155 an interaction with him. 723 00:22:57,370 --> 00:22:57,429 Yeah. 724 00:22:58,239 --> 00:23:01,000 And again, I say this kind of facetiously, maybe that's the 725 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:01,870 best thing he's ever heard. 726 00:23:03,070 --> 00:23:05,830 He wants to hear less of me and I could accept that. 727 00:23:06,189 --> 00:23:08,080 But you know, we're going back to this cost 728 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:09,250 we didn't model for. 729 00:23:09,370 --> 00:23:11,139 Dude, I'm starting to get a little anxious about 730 00:23:11,139 --> 00:23:13,810 this because I'm thinking of how many things. 731 00:23:13,810 --> 00:23:16,389 Let me reverse it that he's not asking me, right? 732 00:23:16,419 --> 00:23:16,465 Yeah. 733 00:23:16,465 --> 00:23:18,790 But I do wanna talk to my, I do want those questions 734 00:23:18,790 --> 00:23:19,959 brought to me, right? 735 00:23:20,169 --> 00:23:20,320 Yep. 736 00:23:20,350 --> 00:23:22,570 And I'm like, shit, think about this. 737 00:23:22,780 --> 00:23:24,729 If I have a dumb question, okay. 738 00:23:24,879 --> 00:23:26,709 It at least in invokes some dialogue. 739 00:23:27,270 --> 00:23:29,100 Which can also also lead to other things, 740 00:23:29,250 --> 00:23:30,450 honestly, it often does. 741 00:23:30,750 --> 00:23:34,470 But if I'm a 25-year-old person in a, in an organization, and 742 00:23:34,470 --> 00:23:37,530 I'm now afraid to ask questions because I can just GPT and kind 743 00:23:37,530 --> 00:23:41,010 of be quiet about it, think of how much interaction the highers 744 00:23:41,010 --> 00:23:41,970 up aren't getting with me. 745 00:23:42,975 --> 00:23:43,215 Yeah. 746 00:23:43,274 --> 00:23:43,514 Yeah. 747 00:23:43,514 --> 00:23:44,264 A teaching moment. 748 00:23:44,685 --> 00:23:45,435 I'll give an example. 749 00:23:45,435 --> 00:23:47,864 A, a person, you and I both know who I've been working 750 00:23:47,864 --> 00:23:49,274 with, uh, on my house, right? 751 00:23:49,514 --> 00:23:51,344 Uhhuh convincing him to start a business, right? 752 00:23:51,645 --> 00:23:53,864 And every time we get together, he's telling me 753 00:23:53,864 --> 00:23:55,935 like, basically he's running the whole thing through GPT, 754 00:23:55,995 --> 00:23:58,514 like all of his decision trees and everything else like that. 755 00:23:58,544 --> 00:23:58,725 Yep. 756 00:23:58,995 --> 00:24:01,695 Which, you know, I, I can't knock, but he'll come to 757 00:24:01,695 --> 00:24:03,915 me and he'll explain to me like what the outcome 758 00:24:03,915 --> 00:24:05,385 of that conversation was. 759 00:24:05,745 --> 00:24:07,935 And I'll be like, damn, dude, that's like entirely wrong. 760 00:24:08,475 --> 00:24:11,804 Like, like you were completely led astray by a 761 00:24:11,804 --> 00:24:15,074 wildly overzealous AI that sounded convincing as hell, 762 00:24:15,375 --> 00:24:16,574 but none of that is true. 763 00:24:16,695 --> 00:24:17,504 You know what it reminds me of? 764 00:24:17,534 --> 00:24:17,655 Yeah. 765 00:24:17,864 --> 00:24:19,665 It reminds me of when college students used to 766 00:24:19,665 --> 00:24:21,915 come to us and say, this is what my professor said. 767 00:24:22,304 --> 00:24:25,544 Uh, and I'm like, that is entirely wrong. 768 00:24:25,784 --> 00:24:28,215 Told to you by a very well-meaning person, 769 00:24:28,485 --> 00:24:28,574 right? 770 00:24:28,574 --> 00:24:28,814 Yeah. 771 00:24:28,905 --> 00:24:29,745 Well intended. 772 00:24:29,745 --> 00:24:31,725 But they haven't left the classroom long enough to 773 00:24:31,725 --> 00:24:33,104 remember what it's like to build a business. 774 00:24:33,104 --> 00:24:33,465 Never done this. 775 00:24:33,465 --> 00:24:34,364 They knew in the first place. 776 00:24:34,395 --> 00:24:34,635 Yeah. 777 00:24:34,635 --> 00:24:35,715 So that's here nor there. 778 00:24:35,955 --> 00:24:37,389 But again, this behavior. 779 00:24:38,430 --> 00:24:41,160 Of me going to a non-human for stuff 780 00:24:41,310 --> 00:24:41,550 Yeah. 781 00:24:41,670 --> 00:24:44,129 Is robbing us of interactions. 782 00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:44,490 Yep. 783 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,220 But here's, here's the trick, but it makes so much more 784 00:24:47,220 --> 00:24:48,120 sense for me to do that. 785 00:24:48,210 --> 00:24:52,350 It makes so much more sense for me to go to GPT and ask 786 00:24:52,350 --> 00:24:55,470 the question, and I'm starting to go, well, it also makes 787 00:24:55,470 --> 00:24:58,410 sense for the rest of my team to go to GPT to ask the 788 00:24:58,410 --> 00:25:01,710 question, which means I'm not getting involved, which means 789 00:25:01,710 --> 00:25:04,740 I don't have either a teaching moment or a say in the matter 790 00:25:04,740 --> 00:25:05,820 or anything else like that. 791 00:25:06,270 --> 00:25:07,290 And I'm like, oh. 792 00:25:07,725 --> 00:25:08,295 Shit. 793 00:25:08,340 --> 00:25:09,899 That's a problem. 794 00:25:09,899 --> 00:25:10,050 Yeah. 795 00:25:10,350 --> 00:25:12,330 You know, there, there's a, there was a little of a parallel 796 00:25:12,330 --> 00:25:15,090 I thought of here, which is that like, and look, I'm not 797 00:25:15,090 --> 00:25:17,760 judging anybody's parenting style, but like we've been 798 00:25:17,879 --> 00:25:19,919 fairly di device restrictive. 799 00:25:20,129 --> 00:25:20,340 Yeah. 800 00:25:20,340 --> 00:25:22,740 And I remember like being out with our kids and like 801 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:23,939 our kids be a little noisier. 802 00:25:23,939 --> 00:25:25,409 We'd have to do a little more work to get 'em to 803 00:25:25,409 --> 00:25:26,399 settle in and eat dinner. 804 00:25:26,399 --> 00:25:28,530 We're out somewhere, look across and there's a, there's 805 00:25:28,530 --> 00:25:30,090 a family of, of, of five. 806 00:25:30,345 --> 00:25:31,995 Where the kids are being perfectly quiet 'cause 807 00:25:31,995 --> 00:25:34,245 each one of them is looking into a device on the table. 808 00:25:34,245 --> 00:25:34,635 A hundred percent. 809 00:25:35,205 --> 00:25:35,295 Yep. 810 00:25:35,295 --> 00:25:35,485 That was easier. 811 00:25:35,485 --> 00:25:36,230 Really efficient. 812 00:25:36,230 --> 00:25:36,470 Right? 813 00:25:36,570 --> 00:25:39,195 And it keeps the, but it does the same kind of things, right? 814 00:25:39,195 --> 00:25:41,205 Strips out that, that humanity strips out those 815 00:25:41,205 --> 00:25:44,145 interactions and, and I think it's, it's dangerous. 816 00:25:44,385 --> 00:25:46,635 There's something else too, and I think we've talked about this 817 00:25:46,635 --> 00:25:49,785 on another podcast episode Will, but there's a big difference 818 00:25:49,785 --> 00:25:52,875 between you and I using. 819 00:25:53,370 --> 00:25:56,880 GPT to, to work through things that were already 820 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,150 outright experts and just really experienced people in 821 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:00,480 Yeah. 822 00:26:00,510 --> 00:26:00,870 Right. 823 00:26:00,930 --> 00:26:04,140 And the 22, 23, 20 4-year-old just getting an answer from it. 824 00:26:04,140 --> 00:26:05,790 They have nothing to qualify it against. 825 00:26:05,790 --> 00:26:08,340 And I, and I, I really worry that we're gonna lose 826 00:26:08,340 --> 00:26:09,480 something really important. 827 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,340 And I was thinking about a really specific example. 828 00:26:11,645 --> 00:26:13,415 Where you get to some level of conviction. 829 00:26:13,420 --> 00:26:13,615 Mm-hmm. 830 00:26:13,675 --> 00:26:15,515 I think that one of the things that, that these 831 00:26:15,515 --> 00:26:18,815 outcomes can lack as you're getting information back 832 00:26:18,815 --> 00:26:20,495 from a model is conviction. 833 00:26:20,495 --> 00:26:24,245 I remember one of the, the best lines I ever wrote, it 834 00:26:24,245 --> 00:26:28,535 ended up being our, our highest performing ROAS line, uh, from 835 00:26:28,535 --> 00:26:32,015 a LinkedIn ad ever happened over by our lunch table. 836 00:26:32,045 --> 00:26:32,795 Remember the lunch table? 837 00:26:32,795 --> 00:26:34,385 We had the massive whiteboard next to it? 838 00:26:34,390 --> 00:26:34,470 Mm-hmm. 839 00:26:34,550 --> 00:26:34,710 Yeah. 840 00:26:34,710 --> 00:26:34,870 Yeah. 841 00:26:35,015 --> 00:26:37,055 In, at the end of the room there, uh, conference 842 00:26:37,055 --> 00:26:38,195 table, but it wasn't in the conference room. 843 00:26:38,195 --> 00:26:39,665 It was one just at the end by the entrance. 844 00:26:40,555 --> 00:26:44,875 I, I wrote a couple lines up on the, on the, uh, on that board, 845 00:26:44,995 --> 00:26:47,815 and then I was asking people to bring their laptops over and 846 00:26:47,815 --> 00:26:49,855 just like, Hey, I want you guys to scroll your LinkedIn feed 847 00:26:49,855 --> 00:26:50,725 and tell me what you're seeing. 848 00:26:51,295 --> 00:26:53,455 And everybody started kinda going, oh, okay. 849 00:26:53,455 --> 00:26:55,825 Like we came to this conclusion together. 850 00:26:56,689 --> 00:26:59,330 That there was a lot of polished business graphics and a lot of 851 00:26:59,330 --> 00:27:01,490 really formal talk and all this stuff, and so we decided to do 852 00:27:01,490 --> 00:27:02,780 the, it's the napkin ad, right? 853 00:27:02,780 --> 00:27:02,840 Yeah. 854 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:03,860 That's where that came from. 855 00:27:03,919 --> 00:27:04,189 Yeah. 856 00:27:04,195 --> 00:27:04,254 Yeah. 857 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,340 And that came from other people rolling their eyes at it, 858 00:27:07,340 --> 00:27:09,110 beating it up a little bit, pushing around, and then all 859 00:27:09,110 --> 00:27:11,149 of us, everybody kind of going, okay, I see where this is going. 860 00:27:11,570 --> 00:27:13,459 The conviction that came from that. 861 00:27:13,875 --> 00:27:16,395 Was something really interesting that had I gotten the same 862 00:27:16,395 --> 00:27:20,565 answer from a model was like, do this for these reasons, it 863 00:27:20,565 --> 00:27:21,585 wouldn't have felt the same. 864 00:27:21,585 --> 00:27:21,765 Right. 865 00:27:21,765 --> 00:27:23,504 And so I think that there is something else 866 00:27:23,504 --> 00:27:25,965 to that human piece that even if the information 867 00:27:25,965 --> 00:27:27,075 was exactly the same, 868 00:27:27,285 --> 00:27:27,525 yeah. 869 00:27:27,555 --> 00:27:29,325 The way we receive it, the way we process, the 870 00:27:29,325 --> 00:27:32,445 way we feel about it can be entirely different. 871 00:27:32,450 --> 00:27:32,670 Yeah. 872 00:27:32,670 --> 00:27:34,665 And to your point, like I miss having those 873 00:27:34,665 --> 00:27:35,415 moments with people. 874 00:27:35,595 --> 00:27:38,955 I miss, like yes, I want my team to know things on occasion. 875 00:27:38,955 --> 00:27:41,085 I also want it to come from me because that 876 00:27:41,085 --> 00:27:43,215 binds us, that brings us together in a different way. 877 00:27:43,215 --> 00:27:45,615 If they come to the same conclusion without me, they came 878 00:27:45,615 --> 00:27:46,665 to that conclusion without me. 879 00:27:46,875 --> 00:27:47,175 Right. 880 00:27:47,179 --> 00:27:47,340 And 881 00:27:47,780 --> 00:27:47,899 I 882 00:27:47,899 --> 00:27:48,945 think part of that, Ryan, that's less the team and just 883 00:27:48,945 --> 00:27:50,264 more of a bunch of mercenaries, 884 00:27:50,355 --> 00:27:52,335 is what teachers used to retort. 885 00:27:52,335 --> 00:27:54,165 When people said, why do I need to learn this? 886 00:27:54,165 --> 00:27:54,975 I've got a calculator. 887 00:27:55,545 --> 00:27:55,905 Yeah. 888 00:27:55,905 --> 00:27:58,485 I mean, it was like, this will give me the answer, so why do I 889 00:27:58,485 --> 00:27:59,715 need to know the math behind it? 890 00:27:59,895 --> 00:28:00,075 Yep. 891 00:28:00,165 --> 00:28:03,885 And you know, the teacher, and usually fatally would explain 892 00:28:04,095 --> 00:28:06,405 because the math behind it is how you understand what 893 00:28:06,405 --> 00:28:07,395 the answer is supposed to be. 894 00:28:07,425 --> 00:28:07,695 Yes. 895 00:28:07,725 --> 00:28:08,055 Right. 896 00:28:08,145 --> 00:28:10,035 Just getting the answer isn't what it's, it reminds 897 00:28:10,035 --> 00:28:13,065 me of too, what I would imagine professors, college 898 00:28:13,065 --> 00:28:15,645 professors or, or any teacher would be trying to tell their 899 00:28:15,645 --> 00:28:19,035 students fatally, uh, right now, which is, I understand 900 00:28:19,035 --> 00:28:21,165 that all of you can go into GPT and write a book report. 901 00:28:21,780 --> 00:28:22,830 Or a term paper or whatever. 902 00:28:22,830 --> 00:28:25,320 I, I understand you, like you, you can just 903 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:26,370 use a calculator, right? 904 00:28:26,580 --> 00:28:29,880 But understand the whole point of you being here wasn't to 905 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,910 get the output, it was to get the input right, so you 906 00:28:32,910 --> 00:28:33,575 understood the material. 907 00:28:34,245 --> 00:28:34,575 Right. 908 00:28:34,754 --> 00:28:37,125 I look at it with our team where this goes back to, you know, 909 00:28:37,125 --> 00:28:39,195 when we'll talk about this kind of bringing back the humanity. 910 00:28:39,405 --> 00:28:41,865 I'm gonna have to start realizing that yes, our 911 00:28:41,865 --> 00:28:44,685 team can GPT it, Google it, kind of thing, right? 912 00:28:44,925 --> 00:28:47,205 But it's my job to make it so they don't have to. 913 00:28:47,595 --> 00:28:50,264 It's my job to be able to say, let me explain my 914 00:28:50,264 --> 00:28:52,725 thought process, or let me explain kind of how we get 915 00:28:52,725 --> 00:28:55,784 here so that you understand the math behind the answer. 916 00:28:56,175 --> 00:28:57,605 This is the first time I've ever had to do that. 917 00:28:58,230 --> 00:29:00,060 It's weird, but it's it's real, man. 918 00:29:00,270 --> 00:29:00,720 It is. 919 00:29:01,050 --> 00:29:02,670 So here's what, this is where we are, right? 920 00:29:02,685 --> 00:29:05,070 This is, we find ourselves at a crossroads. 921 00:29:05,130 --> 00:29:05,340 Yeah. 922 00:29:05,370 --> 00:29:07,410 Uh, or maybe we're already past a little bit when need to, we 923 00:29:07,410 --> 00:29:09,240 need to talk about how do we, how do we reverse things a bit? 924 00:29:09,540 --> 00:29:12,090 So how do we bring humanity back, right? 925 00:29:12,090 --> 00:29:16,560 Like, what is it, how do we add human ROI back to the 926 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,650 roadmap in like a really, really deliberate way. 927 00:29:19,770 --> 00:29:23,100 I think the first thing is to be honest, realizing 928 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:24,840 that like we got a problem. 929 00:29:25,169 --> 00:29:25,530 Yeah, 930 00:29:25,860 --> 00:29:26,040 for sure. 931 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,469 It was a little bit different when we all went remote work 932 00:29:28,469 --> 00:29:31,080 and it was like, oh yeah, just put people in, in an offsite 933 00:29:31,110 --> 00:29:33,270 or like put people like, you know, uh, work at a, a 934 00:29:33,270 --> 00:29:34,469 coworking facility or something. 935 00:29:34,530 --> 00:29:34,860 Yeah. 936 00:29:34,860 --> 00:29:34,870 Yeah. 937 00:29:34,949 --> 00:29:37,020 And we could look at it like, well, problem, no 938 00:29:37,020 --> 00:29:38,280 people in office or Right. 939 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,709 You know, people out of office, uh, solution, people in office. 940 00:29:40,709 --> 00:29:40,860 Right. 941 00:29:40,860 --> 00:29:41,699 Like that was the thing. 942 00:29:41,699 --> 00:29:41,760 Yeah. 943 00:29:42,270 --> 00:29:46,350 And you're seeing kind of that, um, that caveman response. 944 00:29:47,070 --> 00:29:48,270 At huge companies now. 945 00:29:48,450 --> 00:29:48,750 Right? 946 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,930 And these, these are people that I absolutely like, admire, like 947 00:29:51,930 --> 00:29:53,790 Jamie Diamond from Chase, right. 948 00:29:53,820 --> 00:29:54,990 Incredible, incredible mind. 949 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,210 And his whole thing is like, Hey, we're going all 950 00:29:57,210 --> 00:29:58,890 going back the office 'cause we get more stuff done. 951 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:00,570 Do I think that's the answer? 952 00:30:00,570 --> 00:30:00,990 No. 953 00:30:00,990 --> 00:30:02,250 Do I think that guy's a genius? 954 00:30:02,250 --> 00:30:02,760 Yes. 955 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,580 I say this to say certainly people are taking in that 956 00:30:05,580 --> 00:30:06,720 caveman approach, right? 957 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:07,920 No office, bad office. 958 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:08,190 Good. 959 00:30:08,670 --> 00:30:08,880 Yeah, 960 00:30:09,030 --> 00:30:09,175 I get it. 961 00:30:10,020 --> 00:30:13,530 What I'm saying is that was the easy version of this. 962 00:30:13,534 --> 00:30:13,804 Right? 963 00:30:13,804 --> 00:30:13,925 Right, 964 00:30:13,929 --> 00:30:14,010 right. 965 00:30:14,010 --> 00:30:16,230 We're now doing a version where there's no human at all, 966 00:30:16,740 --> 00:30:17,820 even if you're in an office. 967 00:30:18,030 --> 00:30:18,210 Right. 968 00:30:18,210 --> 00:30:20,159 Because we've already proven that you can sit right 969 00:30:20,159 --> 00:30:23,370 next to somebody and talk to them without letting 970 00:30:23,370 --> 00:30:25,950 a word pass or any actual human interaction occur. 971 00:30:26,220 --> 00:30:26,610 You bet. 972 00:30:26,610 --> 00:30:30,870 And I think now that really, because AI is, is the final step 973 00:30:30,870 --> 00:30:33,000 in this where you're just taking humans out of it altogether. 974 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,120 I think we have to start going, dude, like this isn't okay. 975 00:30:36,659 --> 00:30:37,770 Like as managers. 976 00:30:38,305 --> 00:30:40,825 Ryan, this is a whole new skillset again. 977 00:30:40,915 --> 00:30:41,095 Yeah. 978 00:30:41,100 --> 00:30:44,395 It, it goes back to I don't need to teach math anymore because 979 00:30:44,395 --> 00:30:46,825 everybody's got calculators and you've gotta be of the 980 00:30:46,825 --> 00:30:50,215 mindset that just getting the answer isn't what I'm here for. 981 00:30:50,425 --> 00:30:53,215 Like, I also need to teach people how we arrived there. 982 00:30:53,635 --> 00:30:55,375 So let's say that, that we're thinking about a new 983 00:30:55,375 --> 00:30:56,125 product we're gonna build. 984 00:30:56,515 --> 00:31:00,570 I can brainstorm with GPT all day long and have 985 00:31:00,590 --> 00:31:01,490 no input from everybody. 986 00:31:02,189 --> 00:31:03,540 And produce a requirements document. 987 00:31:04,050 --> 00:31:04,679 And that's cool. 988 00:31:04,770 --> 00:31:07,679 Like I, that was the most time efficient way 989 00:31:07,679 --> 00:31:08,459 I could get that done. 990 00:31:08,879 --> 00:31:10,679 But what did I lose in that process? 991 00:31:11,159 --> 00:31:12,540 I lost the buy-in. 992 00:31:13,380 --> 00:31:14,730 Everybody that would've been involved. 993 00:31:14,790 --> 00:31:14,910 Yep. 994 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:15,300 Right. 995 00:31:15,630 --> 00:31:17,640 I lost somebody raising their hand and say, Hey, 996 00:31:17,910 --> 00:31:19,110 that's a stupid idea. 997 00:31:20,970 --> 00:31:22,170 And the challenge, right? 998 00:31:22,170 --> 00:31:23,970 The pushback, obviously, you know, most AI 999 00:31:24,150 --> 00:31:24,690 are incredibly han, 1000 00:31:25,620 --> 00:31:27,210 which to me like that goes back to what I was saying 1001 00:31:27,210 --> 00:31:28,320 before about conviction, right? 1002 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:29,940 That's part of where conviction comes from. 1003 00:31:29,940 --> 00:31:32,310 It's not just people agreeing, it's people disagreeing and 1004 00:31:32,310 --> 00:31:35,040 then realizing why you still think you're right, right? 1005 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,740 That's where conviction comes from, and it's an important 1006 00:31:37,740 --> 00:31:38,910 part of the thought process. 1007 00:31:38,910 --> 00:31:41,490 That absolutely doesn't occur any of my. 1008 00:31:41,570 --> 00:31:43,340 My chat interactions with GPT or other. 1009 00:31:43,340 --> 00:31:43,520 Okay. 1010 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,470 So, so I'm, I'm gonna actually use that as a, 1011 00:31:45,470 --> 00:31:46,700 as a great comparison. 1012 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,840 So you fly into town, ed flies in, or you come from Spain? 1013 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:51,710 Ed comes from Canada, yep. 1014 00:31:51,710 --> 00:31:53,360 You know, like in the team in Columbus, 1015 00:31:53,510 --> 00:31:54,230 everybody gets together. 1016 00:31:54,230 --> 00:31:54,470 Right. 1017 00:31:55,070 --> 00:31:57,500 And we sit in my living room and we go over the 1018 00:31:57,500 --> 00:31:58,820 product development together. 1019 00:31:58,850 --> 00:31:59,030 Yeah. 1020 00:31:59,480 --> 00:31:59,780 Right. 1021 00:31:59,780 --> 00:32:01,010 Over a course of a few days. 1022 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:01,639 Right. 1023 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,120 And how pumped were we coming off that? 1024 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:05,240 Yeah. 1025 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:05,960 Right. 1026 00:32:06,050 --> 00:32:06,379 Yep. 1027 00:32:06,889 --> 00:32:10,010 No way on God's green earth that was ever gonna 1028 00:32:10,010 --> 00:32:11,060 happen in a Slack chat. 1029 00:32:11,655 --> 00:32:12,545 Ever, ever, ever, 1030 00:32:12,775 --> 00:32:14,730 ever, ever, every two pages of product discussion 1031 00:32:14,730 --> 00:32:16,680 generated by chat GBT enjoy. 1032 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:16,740 Yeah. 1033 00:32:16,770 --> 00:32:17,700 Like, oh, I can't wait. 1034 00:32:19,260 --> 00:32:20,910 Because, and again, that was like a really 1035 00:32:20,910 --> 00:32:21,870 compressed period of time. 1036 00:32:21,870 --> 00:32:23,310 You guys were only in town for so long, you know, 1037 00:32:23,310 --> 00:32:24,000 we had a lot to cover. 1038 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,560 Unfortunately, we just motored through it. 1039 00:32:26,010 --> 00:32:29,730 But, you know, we really came up with an entire vision and 1040 00:32:29,730 --> 00:32:32,910 stepped forward for the company that everybody contributed to. 1041 00:32:33,330 --> 00:32:35,160 Everybody was bought in, and more importantly, 1042 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:36,180 everybody was excited about. 1043 00:32:37,064 --> 00:32:37,605 Again. 1044 00:32:37,965 --> 00:32:39,885 Yeah, buy-in and ownership. 1045 00:32:40,034 --> 00:32:41,955 You can't, if you're just reading the requirements 1046 00:32:41,955 --> 00:32:44,415 doc that was generated and handed to you, like there's 1047 00:32:44,415 --> 00:32:46,274 no buy-in, there's no ownership, there's no, there's 1048 00:32:46,274 --> 00:32:47,865 no sense of participation. 1049 00:32:48,105 --> 00:32:48,314 Right. 1050 00:32:48,314 --> 00:32:48,885 It's just. 1051 00:32:49,245 --> 00:32:51,435 Executional work at that point, it becomes transactional. 1052 00:32:51,585 --> 00:32:51,705 You 1053 00:32:51,705 --> 00:32:51,794 bet. 1054 00:32:51,794 --> 00:32:52,814 So then guess what they're gonna do? 1055 00:32:53,054 --> 00:32:55,215 The obvious thing to do would be, all right, let me have 1056 00:32:55,215 --> 00:32:56,504 GPT go execute this for me. 1057 00:32:56,774 --> 00:32:57,195 Perfect. 1058 00:32:58,665 --> 00:33:03,165 So, but other aspects of that, this concept of not having the 1059 00:33:03,165 --> 00:33:06,195 interactions, realizing the interactions are fundamental 1060 00:33:06,195 --> 00:33:07,814 aspect of, of our humanity. 1061 00:33:08,294 --> 00:33:13,365 The efficiency that we gain has a real cost that as managers, 1062 00:33:13,365 --> 00:33:15,855 you know, as, as leaders of companies, we have to replace. 1063 00:33:16,185 --> 00:33:16,545 For sure. 1064 00:33:16,784 --> 00:33:17,085 Right? 1065 00:33:17,264 --> 00:33:20,895 And, and, and maybe some of that replacement is, I use AI 1066 00:33:20,895 --> 00:33:24,615 where appropriate, but I also realize that at some point 1067 00:33:24,615 --> 00:33:28,125 the use of AI is gonna cost me all the buy-in from my team. 1068 00:33:28,705 --> 00:33:28,995 Yeah. 1069 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:29,115 Yeah. 1070 00:33:29,415 --> 00:33:29,715 Right. 1071 00:33:29,985 --> 00:33:33,405 Or from your standpoint as the CMO, you can say, I 1072 00:33:33,405 --> 00:33:36,254 know I can put together this entire plan by myself in ai 1073 00:33:36,435 --> 00:33:36,675 Yep. 1074 00:33:36,885 --> 00:33:38,774 But without anybody else chiming in on it. 1075 00:33:39,135 --> 00:33:40,875 One, I could be wrong like we've been talking about. 1076 00:33:40,875 --> 00:33:40,965 Yes. 1077 00:33:41,024 --> 00:33:41,205 Right. 1078 00:33:41,205 --> 00:33:43,185 I could, I could have missed something, um, or gotten 1079 00:33:43,185 --> 00:33:45,465 like, really, you know, high on my own supply about this 1080 00:33:45,465 --> 00:33:48,014 concept without considering a really basic fact. 1081 00:33:48,555 --> 00:33:50,925 Or because you don't have buy-in on it. 1082 00:33:51,405 --> 00:33:54,435 All the other like levers that you need in order to orchestrate 1083 00:33:54,435 --> 00:33:57,254 this are being put in front of people who don't care about it. 1084 00:33:58,110 --> 00:33:59,760 That's it like kind of matters. 1085 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:05,220 Or when you have the buy-in, you have shared like consequence. 1086 00:34:05,370 --> 00:34:07,679 If your campaign doesn't work and everybody bought in 1087 00:34:07,679 --> 00:34:08,940 on it, they're like, shit. 1088 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,730 But if you're the only one that presented it and no one else 1089 00:34:11,730 --> 00:34:15,270 had any input and you fuck it up, that's just Ryan's problem. 1090 00:34:15,690 --> 00:34:16,110 That's just 1091 00:34:16,110 --> 00:34:16,230 it. 1092 00:34:16,230 --> 00:34:17,610 I mean, technically all of our problems, but like, 1093 00:34:17,610 --> 00:34:18,150 you know what I mean? 1094 00:34:18,540 --> 00:34:19,049 It ain't the same. 1095 00:34:19,049 --> 00:34:19,259 Yeah. 1096 00:34:19,620 --> 00:34:21,750 You know what's funny is like we're, we're mostly talking 1097 00:34:21,750 --> 00:34:25,049 about fairly transactional stuff, like content producing 1098 00:34:25,049 --> 00:34:26,040 things at campaigns. 1099 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:26,100 Yeah. 1100 00:34:26,130 --> 00:34:26,549 Whatever. 1101 00:34:26,850 --> 00:34:30,480 You get into things like the, some of the, the softer stuff, 1102 00:34:30,509 --> 00:34:31,860 which are the hardest, right? 1103 00:34:32,250 --> 00:34:34,889 Like what the really hard calls in a founder, like I 1104 00:34:34,889 --> 00:34:35,940 don't having to, having to let. 1105 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,460 Somebody go having to wind down the company, right? 1106 00:34:39,460 --> 00:34:40,600 Should we take on investment? 1107 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,250 There's all of these other things that are like these 1108 00:34:42,250 --> 00:34:44,920 really big tough, hard decisions that founders have to make. 1109 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,409 And look, the hardest calls are always still gonna be 1110 00:34:47,409 --> 00:34:50,710 ours, but man, it feels like they land a little softer when 1111 00:34:50,710 --> 00:34:52,179 someone else hears it land. 1112 00:34:52,509 --> 00:34:52,690 Right? 1113 00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:53,199 Agreed. 1114 00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:54,670 When, when it's just ours. 1115 00:34:54,699 --> 00:34:58,210 And also like I, I get really worried that we're losing the 1116 00:34:58,210 --> 00:35:00,250 ability to thought process. 1117 00:35:00,370 --> 00:35:00,460 Mm-hmm. 1118 00:35:00,700 --> 00:35:00,850 Right? 1119 00:35:00,850 --> 00:35:03,370 We're losing the ability to kind of sit with stuff 1120 00:35:03,370 --> 00:35:04,509 because we don't have to. 1121 00:35:05,610 --> 00:35:07,080 We don't have to sit with anything anymore. 1122 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,300 I can immediately have something, process it. 1123 00:35:09,300 --> 00:35:09,510 Right. 1124 00:35:09,510 --> 00:35:12,180 There's no more like, you know what's funny? 1125 00:35:12,180 --> 00:35:13,230 I have done this. 1126 00:35:13,260 --> 00:35:15,600 I used to, I used to have a notebook beside the bed. 1127 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:16,110 Right? 1128 00:35:16,110 --> 00:35:17,820 And when I would wake up with one of those thoughts, 1129 00:35:17,820 --> 00:35:19,020 that just wouldn't go away. 1130 00:35:19,110 --> 00:35:19,380 Yeah. 1131 00:35:19,590 --> 00:35:20,430 I'd write it down. 1132 00:35:21,060 --> 00:35:22,680 Then I'd leave it until the next morning, try 1133 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:23,490 to get it outta my head. 1134 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:24,750 What do I do now? 1135 00:35:25,050 --> 00:35:26,550 Throw that shit into GPT. 1136 00:35:26,700 --> 00:35:26,910 Yep. 1137 00:35:26,940 --> 00:35:27,270 Right? 1138 00:35:27,660 --> 00:35:27,840 Yep. 1139 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,580 Partially, this is a way to capture it, but agree 1140 00:35:29,580 --> 00:35:31,350 partially is a way to begin to process it, right? 1141 00:35:31,350 --> 00:35:31,440 Yep. 1142 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,080 Which takes away just sitting with something. 1143 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,360 And I think there's a, there's a real danger in that. 1144 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,790 Yes, there are certain things that it will just, it'll, 1145 00:35:38,790 --> 00:35:40,650 it'll help me crank stuff out, I can help me brainstorm, 1146 00:35:40,650 --> 00:35:41,520 help me do a lot of things. 1147 00:35:41,850 --> 00:35:43,290 Um, but I think we get into some of these bigger, 1148 00:35:43,290 --> 00:35:45,540 harder decisions, which are the best and worst 1149 00:35:45,540 --> 00:35:46,590 part of being a founder. 1150 00:35:47,190 --> 00:35:49,170 There's a much, much bigger danger. 1151 00:35:49,530 --> 00:35:50,430 That's where my head is at. 1152 00:35:50,430 --> 00:35:50,700 Right? 1153 00:35:50,705 --> 00:35:53,670 I, I keep thinking to myself, how do I replace 1154 00:35:54,210 --> 00:35:55,140 the humanity in this? 1155 00:35:55,290 --> 00:35:55,590 Right? 1156 00:35:55,710 --> 00:35:55,860 Yeah. 1157 00:35:55,860 --> 00:35:58,410 How do I re replace the process that brought the 1158 00:35:58,410 --> 00:36:01,740 humanity, because this thing's scary, right? 1159 00:36:01,740 --> 00:36:01,800 Yeah. 1160 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,250 Again, my efficiency is at an all time high in over 30 years 1161 00:36:05,250 --> 00:36:08,070 of being a founder, and this is the first time I've ever seen 1162 00:36:08,070 --> 00:36:09,420 a consequence to efficiency. 1163 00:36:10,185 --> 00:36:12,495 In the past it was always efficiency. 1164 00:36:12,495 --> 00:36:12,825 Good. 1165 00:36:12,885 --> 00:36:14,475 You know, consequence zero pretty much. 1166 00:36:14,535 --> 00:36:14,775 Yeah, 1167 00:36:14,775 --> 00:36:15,075 exactly 1168 00:36:15,075 --> 00:36:15,165 right. 1169 00:36:15,525 --> 00:36:17,925 Consequence was maybe the cost of the tool, right? 1170 00:36:18,135 --> 00:36:18,435 Correct. 1171 00:36:18,495 --> 00:36:21,555 That would create that efficiency and now I'm kind 1172 00:36:21,555 --> 00:36:25,305 of like, damn, I could do all of this in a vacuum in 1173 00:36:25,305 --> 00:36:28,845 my connection to my team become zero and, and you 1174 00:36:28,845 --> 00:36:30,705 know, I've been talking about how it affects the team. 1175 00:36:30,915 --> 00:36:31,930 Lemme talk about how it affects me. 1176 00:36:33,015 --> 00:36:35,355 Like how it affects me, me personally, when you go hours 1177 00:36:35,355 --> 00:36:37,815 and hours and hours and like if we extrapolate days and 1178 00:36:37,815 --> 00:36:41,504 days and days without really ever having conversations, like 1179 00:36:41,504 --> 00:36:44,714 any meaningful conversations with anybody, that stuff 1180 00:36:44,714 --> 00:36:45,640 messes with your head. 1181 00:36:46,530 --> 00:36:46,980 It does, 1182 00:36:47,220 --> 00:36:50,610 and I say this, we have a lot of luxuries because of our, 1183 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,790 the stage of this company that most founders don't have. 1184 00:36:54,180 --> 00:36:56,550 We have the luxury of being, being around almost 15 years. 1185 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,880 A tremendous amount of personal history among the team, you 1186 00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:01,080 know, and trust, et cetera. 1187 00:37:01,590 --> 00:37:03,840 And so I don't have to build those things 'cause 1188 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:04,440 we already built them. 1189 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,550 But if I'm a solo founder and I've got maybe, you know, 1190 00:37:08,550 --> 00:37:10,620 two people that were working with me through Upwork or 1191 00:37:10,620 --> 00:37:12,630 something right, you know, super far away that I've never 1192 00:37:12,630 --> 00:37:14,550 met, I was already lonely. 1193 00:37:15,180 --> 00:37:18,720 Right, but this is taking it to the nth degree, I think as 1194 00:37:18,720 --> 00:37:21,270 a founder, which again is a very, and, and it's not like 1195 00:37:21,270 --> 00:37:23,070 specific to the founder, it's specific to everybody on the 1196 00:37:23,070 --> 00:37:25,560 team, but I'm just gonna speak from the founder's perspective. 1197 00:37:26,070 --> 00:37:28,380 As a founder, it's already a lonely job. 1198 00:37:28,710 --> 00:37:31,140 Like a super lonely job to begin with, and now to 1199 00:37:31,140 --> 00:37:33,480 take the human interaction out of it all together. 1200 00:37:33,750 --> 00:37:36,779 That is just not healthy, that I don't see any 1201 00:37:36,779 --> 00:37:38,339 version where that goes. 1202 00:37:38,339 --> 00:37:38,609 Well. 1203 00:37:39,420 --> 00:37:41,190 I don't see any version where people, people are 1204 00:37:41,190 --> 00:37:42,330 like wildly happy about it. 1205 00:37:42,569 --> 00:37:43,350 Unless you were the world's, 1206 00:37:43,355 --> 00:37:43,705 it was already 1207 00:37:44,015 --> 00:37:44,625 introvert 1208 00:37:44,685 --> 00:37:45,105 as you said. 1209 00:37:45,990 --> 00:37:48,570 It was already isolating and we, we kept the isolation, 1210 00:37:49,020 --> 00:37:52,050 but we deleted the antidote, which were the other people 1211 00:37:52,050 --> 00:37:54,000 that we would've been forced to communicate with. 1212 00:37:54,005 --> 00:37:54,480 Yeah, yeah, 1213 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:54,660 yeah. 1214 00:37:54,660 --> 00:37:57,600 And so, yeah, I mean, we're dialing that up significantly. 1215 00:37:57,660 --> 00:37:59,640 Ironically, you know, at a time in, in, in the world 1216 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,320 where it's never been easier. 1217 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:01,500 Right. 1218 00:38:01,500 --> 00:38:02,640 Access is not the problem. 1219 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:02,790 Right. 1220 00:38:02,790 --> 00:38:05,640 We can find people that would be really worth talking to. 1221 00:38:05,820 --> 00:38:06,030 Yep. 1222 00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:08,010 And yet we have all these reasons why. 1223 00:38:08,010 --> 00:38:09,010 It'd just be more efficient not to. 1224 00:38:09,535 --> 00:38:13,075 I'm of the opinion right now that we're going to see 1225 00:38:13,075 --> 00:38:16,945 a massive swing the other direction almost by nature, 1226 00:38:17,275 --> 00:38:20,695 where all of us, and I'm not specific to like startups 1227 00:38:20,695 --> 00:38:22,915 or anything else like that, all of us are gonna start 1228 00:38:22,915 --> 00:38:26,125 to place a massive premium on human interaction. 1229 00:38:26,635 --> 00:38:26,935 Right. 1230 00:38:27,025 --> 00:38:29,575 I just, I feel like this is, you know, one guy's 1231 00:38:29,575 --> 00:38:32,965 prediction, but I feel like the world is starting to 1232 00:38:32,965 --> 00:38:34,450 like not up like a muscle. 1233 00:38:35,715 --> 00:38:35,895 Yep. 1234 00:38:36,135 --> 00:38:37,455 And it's starting to hurt. 1235 00:38:37,695 --> 00:38:40,095 I think social media for as much as it was supposed 1236 00:38:40,095 --> 00:38:42,675 to connect us, disconnected us in a tremendous way. 1237 00:38:42,915 --> 00:38:45,015 Right, because it replaced that human interaction. 1238 00:38:45,015 --> 00:38:45,105 Yes. 1239 00:38:45,315 --> 00:38:48,585 Which we thought like if I have lots and lots of convos 1240 00:38:48,585 --> 00:38:51,105 with all of my friends, technically we're talking. 1241 00:38:51,585 --> 00:38:54,405 But if none of those wind up being like actual 1242 00:38:54,405 --> 00:38:56,535 human interactions, it's not the same thing. 1243 00:38:56,955 --> 00:38:59,175 And I think at some point I also get numb to it, 1244 00:38:59,325 --> 00:38:59,910 which is even worse. 1245 00:39:00,505 --> 00:39:02,635 Like again, and, and this is you and I coming from 1246 00:39:02,635 --> 00:39:05,875 perspective, having lived a very different version of life. 1247 00:39:05,935 --> 00:39:08,455 I mean, yeah, I didn't have a cell phone until 1248 00:39:08,455 --> 00:39:09,565 I was in my twenties. 1249 00:39:10,410 --> 00:39:10,860 How did you make it? 1250 00:39:10,860 --> 00:39:13,110 And that was just a phone that you had to push the 1251 00:39:13,110 --> 00:39:15,840 keys, you had to remember the number, push the buttons to 1252 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:17,790 call someone, and then you could only hear their voice. 1253 00:39:17,790 --> 00:39:17,940 Right. 1254 00:39:18,180 --> 00:39:21,450 Like I think about the, the, the poor digital natives 1255 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,850 and it's like they don't even necessarily know what 1256 00:39:23,850 --> 00:39:25,320 they've, what they've lost. 1257 00:39:25,590 --> 00:39:28,410 And I think that brings a greater responsibility on those 1258 00:39:28,410 --> 00:39:31,260 of us who, who do to protect the humanity in all of this. 1259 00:39:31,260 --> 00:39:31,320 Yeah. 1260 00:39:31,325 --> 00:39:31,385 Yeah. 1261 00:39:31,390 --> 00:39:33,240 Because we may be the, the only ones who actually 1262 00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:35,040 really, truly still understand what it was worth. 1263 00:39:35,250 --> 00:39:35,640 I agree. 1264 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:36,390 And here's what I think. 1265 00:39:36,450 --> 00:39:38,490 I think Ryan, startups of the future. 1266 00:39:38,940 --> 00:39:40,380 You know, you know, we're all building kind of these 1267 00:39:40,380 --> 00:39:41,370 next generation of startups. 1268 00:39:41,790 --> 00:39:46,770 I think one of our greatest like cultural draws is going to 1269 00:39:46,770 --> 00:39:49,410 be how we exemplify humanity. 1270 00:39:49,590 --> 00:39:50,370 Human connection. 1271 00:39:50,370 --> 00:39:50,430 Yeah. 1272 00:39:50,610 --> 00:39:50,820 Right. 1273 00:39:50,820 --> 00:39:52,200 And again, I don't just mean in person. 1274 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:52,890 I hope so. 1275 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:54,630 Because I feel like that's always been one of the 1276 00:39:54,630 --> 00:39:55,650 tenets of the startup, right. 1277 00:39:56,070 --> 00:39:58,020 Think of the way we described it, the large 1278 00:39:58,020 --> 00:39:59,490 soulless corporation. 1279 00:39:59,490 --> 00:39:59,730 Right? 1280 00:39:59,735 --> 00:39:59,745 Yeah. 1281 00:39:59,745 --> 00:40:01,020 Like, and that's becoming true. 1282 00:40:01,020 --> 00:40:02,625 Like the worst thing in the world to me would be. 1283 00:40:03,050 --> 00:40:06,440 That description also applies to a two person startup company. 1284 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:06,650 We're a 1285 00:40:06,650 --> 00:40:07,910 small soulless corporation. 1286 00:40:08,210 --> 00:40:09,980 Yes, very small, soulless individual. 1287 00:40:09,980 --> 00:40:10,100 Yeah. 1288 00:40:10,610 --> 00:40:11,030 Awful. 1289 00:40:11,390 --> 00:40:13,430 I genuinely believe that, and this applies to our 1290 00:40:13,430 --> 00:40:14,330 own company, et cetera. 1291 00:40:14,870 --> 00:40:18,830 I think our ability to craft a new culture. 1292 00:40:19,515 --> 00:40:21,525 That triples down on humanity. 1293 00:40:21,525 --> 00:40:21,585 Yeah. 1294 00:40:21,915 --> 00:40:24,315 That recognizes that all of these productivity 1295 00:40:24,315 --> 00:40:26,835 boosts that we've had have come at a tremendous cost 1296 00:40:27,225 --> 00:40:29,235 and that the people that work for us, with us, et 1297 00:40:29,235 --> 00:40:31,155 cetera, are lonely as hell. 1298 00:40:31,395 --> 00:40:31,665 Right. 1299 00:40:31,665 --> 00:40:34,065 Just, yes, a hundred percent at a very fundamental level 1300 00:40:34,425 --> 00:40:38,265 in our ability to engage and bring them back in. 1301 00:40:38,295 --> 00:40:42,195 You know, make them feel heard, make them feel connected, make 1302 00:40:42,195 --> 00:40:43,755 them feel important again. 1303 00:40:43,995 --> 00:40:44,085 Right. 1304 00:40:44,085 --> 00:40:46,695 And I just mean on an ego level, I mean just at a human level. 1305 00:40:46,700 --> 00:40:46,760 Sure. 1306 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:46,920 Sure. 1307 00:40:47,775 --> 00:40:49,635 Especially for what, what we're about to go through 1308 00:40:49,785 --> 00:40:52,875 right with, with what AI is about to do, I think is gonna 1309 00:40:52,875 --> 00:40:55,155 be the number one premium. 1310 00:40:55,155 --> 00:40:57,225 I think people are like, yeah, there's, there's lots of jobs 1311 00:40:57,225 --> 00:40:58,425 I can get if jobs still exists. 1312 00:40:58,785 --> 00:41:02,145 Uh, there's lot, lots of jobs I can get, but I'm looking 1313 00:41:02,145 --> 00:41:03,225 for a company with soul. 1314 00:41:03,525 --> 00:41:06,950 I'm looking for a company that values humanity in a way that. 1315 00:41:07,650 --> 00:41:08,880 Kind of got pulled away. 1316 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,550 And I think for all of us as, as startups, as founders, as 1317 00:41:11,550 --> 00:41:14,700 people, if we can start to recapture that humanity, we 1318 00:41:14,700 --> 00:41:17,580 are gonna be a, the kind of startup that all of us actually 1319 00:41:17,580 --> 00:41:19,140 want to go and work for. 1320 00:41:19,350 --> 00:41:21,085 In a world where none of that exists. 1321 00:41:22,725 --> 00:41:24,585 Overthinking your startup because you're going it alone. 1322 00:41:25,005 --> 00:41:27,884 You don't have to, and honestly, you shouldn't because instead, 1323 00:41:27,884 --> 00:41:30,975 you can learn directly from peers who've been in your shoes. 1324 00:41:31,065 --> 00:41:33,404 Connect with bootstrap founders and the advisors 1325 00:41:33,404 --> 00:41:35,835 helping them win in the startups.com community. 1326 00:41:35,985 --> 00:41:40,634 Check out the startups.com community@www.startups.com 1327 00:41:40,725 --> 00:41:41,654 to see if it's for you. 1328 00:41:41,895 --> 00:41:42,944 Could be just the thing you need. 1329 00:41:43,154 --> 00:41:44,115 I hope to see you inside.