WEBVTT 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:08.540 Matt Abrahams: What do you get when you combine warmth and assertiveness. 00:00:08.820 --> 00:00:11.730 You get a likeable badass. 00:00:12.360 --> 00:00:15.989 My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:15.989 --> 00:00:17.880 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:18.180 --> 00:00:21.690 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:22.230 --> 00:00:25.169 Today we're excited to speak with Alison Fragale. 00:00:25.290 --> 00:00:29.310 Alison works at the University of North Carolina's Business School. 00:00:29.610 --> 00:00:34.320 She studies and teaches determinants of consequences of power, status, 00:00:34.530 --> 00:00:39.040 and influence in organizations, conflict resolution and negotiations. 00:00:39.160 --> 00:00:43.420 And she focuses on the verbal and nonverbal elements of communication. 00:00:43.839 --> 00:00:48.550 Her newest book is Likeable Badass: How Women Get The Success They Deserve. 00:00:49.330 --> 00:00:54.160 I could think of no better person to interview Alison than our own executive 00:00:54.160 --> 00:00:57.730 producer and likeable badass, Jenny Luna. 00:00:58.110 --> 00:00:58.860 Here's Jenny. 00:00:59.850 --> 00:01:00.550 Jenny Luna: Hi Alison. 00:01:00.570 --> 00:01:02.880 It's so great to have you on Think Fast Talk Smart. 00:01:02.940 --> 00:01:03.720 Alison Fragale: Awesome to be here. 00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:09.570 Jenny Luna: In your book, you write a lot about power and status, and we've 00:01:09.570 --> 00:01:15.150 talked about both extensively on this show, but tell me how you define each. 00:01:15.445 --> 00:01:18.265 And something you wrote in your book that really caught my attention was, 00:01:18.804 --> 00:01:24.024 it's less than ideal when we have this power first, status second mentality. 00:01:24.235 --> 00:01:26.785 Alison Fragale: So power is controlling resources that have 00:01:26.785 --> 00:01:28.705 value to you, value to others. 00:01:28.765 --> 00:01:30.565 So money is a resource. 00:01:30.565 --> 00:01:33.175 The ability to hire and fire is a resource. 00:01:33.295 --> 00:01:36.595 You hold car keys and your teenager wants to drive a car, that's a resource. 00:01:36.804 --> 00:01:41.425 So you are in control of something that has value to you and other people. 00:01:41.425 --> 00:01:44.304 That is how psychologists generally talk about power. 00:01:44.715 --> 00:01:50.205 Status is how much you're respected and highly regarded by other people. 00:01:50.625 --> 00:01:53.085 Power and status has some things in common. 00:01:53.145 --> 00:01:55.995 One is they're both sources of influence. 00:01:56.025 --> 00:02:00.255 If you control the information, if you control the budget, if you control 00:02:00.255 --> 00:02:04.575 my performance review, I'm much more likely to do what you say because those 00:02:04.575 --> 00:02:06.255 resources matter to me and I want them. 00:02:06.255 --> 00:02:08.655 So you are gonna have some influence over what I do. 00:02:08.955 --> 00:02:11.805 Similarly, if I look at you, and I think, I really respect 00:02:11.805 --> 00:02:14.925 you and value you, I'm much more likely to listen to what you say. 00:02:15.225 --> 00:02:17.025 I'm gonna trust that your ideas are good. 00:02:17.385 --> 00:02:22.215 So power and status are both sources of influence, and they're also similar in 00:02:22.215 --> 00:02:24.465 that they are fundamental human needs. 00:02:24.765 --> 00:02:27.255 All human beings want to be respected. 00:02:27.645 --> 00:02:31.665 All human beings want to have some control over resources that matter. 00:02:31.695 --> 00:02:34.095 Not necessarily everything, but they want to control something. 00:02:34.335 --> 00:02:39.540 The difference is that one, you can control resources 00:02:39.570 --> 00:02:40.920 even if people oppose you. 00:02:41.100 --> 00:02:44.430 With status, it's a judgment in other people's minds. 00:02:44.820 --> 00:02:46.470 You can't steal it. 00:02:46.470 --> 00:02:48.990 You can't have it, without their willing consent. 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:52.200 You only get as much status as other people think you have and 00:02:52.200 --> 00:02:53.670 other people want you to have. 00:02:53.820 --> 00:02:55.950 This is one important difference. 00:02:56.550 --> 00:02:58.770 And the other one, which you were talking about that I talking about 00:02:58.770 --> 00:03:00.840 the book, power First, status second. 00:03:01.245 --> 00:03:05.234 There's no doubt that we have talked about power and coach people for 00:03:05.234 --> 00:03:06.734 a long time on getting more power. 00:03:07.245 --> 00:03:10.935 There's a mentality that I hear, and some people will even say it out loud. 00:03:11.265 --> 00:03:15.600 As long as I can have the resources, if I can be in charge, if I can be 00:03:15.600 --> 00:03:19.769 paid, if I can advance, if I can get to be in control, I don't really 00:03:19.769 --> 00:03:21.299 care if people respect me or not. 00:03:21.299 --> 00:03:23.549 Like I don't really care what they think about me 'cause I'm winning. 00:03:23.549 --> 00:03:24.359 I get what I want. 00:03:24.600 --> 00:03:26.549 It doesn't feel good to not be respected. 00:03:26.609 --> 00:03:34.155 But the challenge with status is that it makes power a lot easier to achieve 00:03:34.305 --> 00:03:36.495 and it makes power a lot easier to use. 00:03:36.735 --> 00:03:41.775 Meaning we generally don't wanna give resources to people that we don't respect. 00:03:41.865 --> 00:03:46.065 Why would I give valuable things to you if I don't respect you? 00:03:46.215 --> 00:03:51.255 So when we are not respected by our audiences, it makes acquiring power, 00:03:51.285 --> 00:03:54.795 to advance, to get paid, things that I talk to people a lot about, particularly 00:03:54.795 --> 00:03:56.924 women, makes it a lot harder to achieve. 00:03:57.255 --> 00:04:01.035 And even if you have the power, you get a lot more resistance because 00:04:01.035 --> 00:04:03.375 we don't like power being in the hands of people we don't respect. 00:04:03.435 --> 00:04:07.334 And so the experience of having power and lacking status ends up being a very 00:04:07.365 --> 00:04:09.045 miserable experience for most people. 00:04:09.864 --> 00:04:12.960 Jenny Luna: So it sounds like we wanna focus on getting the respect 00:04:13.110 --> 00:04:15.120 of our audience and people first. 00:04:15.330 --> 00:04:18.540 Alison Fragale: They're both important, but if you ignore status and you just 00:04:18.540 --> 00:04:21.779 are pursuing a life of power, one, you're not gonna be that successful. 00:04:22.140 --> 00:04:25.830 And even if you do succeed, you're gonna get a lot of pushback. 00:04:25.890 --> 00:04:31.590 Whereas if you pursue status before, or at least alongside power, everything 00:04:31.590 --> 00:04:33.080 is gonna fall into place, right? 00:04:33.170 --> 00:04:36.920 People are gonna be much more willing to give you those resources and when 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:40.220 you have them, people are gonna be much more interested in allowing you 00:04:40.220 --> 00:04:41.840 to use them and doing what you say. 00:04:42.140 --> 00:04:45.350 It's not to downgrade power and say power is not important. 00:04:45.410 --> 00:04:45.950 It is. 00:04:46.220 --> 00:04:50.840 We've been talking a lot about it relative to the very little conversation we have 00:04:50.840 --> 00:04:55.190 about status, which is not only important, it's also essentially a prerequisite. 00:04:55.460 --> 00:04:59.990 If you are respected by your audience, all the other good things are just 00:04:59.990 --> 00:05:02.210 gonna start to come a lot easier. 00:05:02.630 --> 00:05:06.530 Jenny Luna: This show, it's all about communication, and our audience really 00:05:06.530 --> 00:05:10.970 likes tools and techniques that they can start applying to their life right away. 00:05:11.390 --> 00:05:16.580 So what are some tactics for speaking, and then even some nonverbal ways of 00:05:16.580 --> 00:05:20.780 communicating, that you think we can use to be more likeable and more badass? 00:05:21.320 --> 00:05:24.415 Alison Fragale: So take a step back and answer your question, which is, as it 00:05:24.415 --> 00:05:28.645 said, likeable badass, catchy term, but it's referencing something specific. 00:05:28.675 --> 00:05:31.515 It is referencing where does status come from? 00:05:31.785 --> 00:05:35.025 And so the idea is that this is a communication process. 00:05:35.475 --> 00:05:37.995 I show up in the world and I do something. 00:05:38.445 --> 00:05:42.165 And if it convinces you that you respect me, what convinces 00:05:42.165 --> 00:05:43.605 you that you should respect me? 00:05:43.755 --> 00:05:44.505 Two things. 00:05:44.925 --> 00:05:47.895 One is, do you care about people other than yourself? 00:05:47.985 --> 00:05:52.545 So if I communicate to my audience that I care about them and at 00:05:52.545 --> 00:05:55.720 least care about somebody that's not just me, we respect that. 00:05:55.840 --> 00:05:58.510 We don't want to interact with selfish people or competitive 00:05:58.510 --> 00:05:59.440 people who are gonna hurt us. 00:05:59.440 --> 00:06:02.230 We want to interact with people who are gonna make our lives better. 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:04.390 So that's one thing we have to communicate. 00:06:04.820 --> 00:06:08.640 Second, people can rely on us, that we know what we're doing in some capacity. 00:06:08.700 --> 00:06:12.450 Even if I think you care, if I can't trust you to execute anything 00:06:12.450 --> 00:06:16.830 well, I'm not really gonna respect you because I can't depend on you. 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:21.960 So likeable and badass, psychologists would call it warmth and assertiveness. 00:06:22.200 --> 00:06:25.950 I need to convince you that I care and I can take charge of my environment 00:06:25.950 --> 00:06:26.940 and I, I know what I'm doing. 00:06:27.300 --> 00:06:31.310 Those are your two communication challenges to build your status. 00:06:31.789 --> 00:06:34.280 You asked about words and verbals and nonverbals. 00:06:34.280 --> 00:06:36.500 It can come through those behaviors. 00:06:36.500 --> 00:06:40.219 It can also come through actions, all different ways in which we show up. 00:06:40.460 --> 00:06:43.729 What are nonverbals that are gonna convey warmth. 00:06:44.030 --> 00:06:45.560 Smiling conveys warmth. 00:06:46.155 --> 00:06:50.265 Eye contact conveys warmth, so mimicry conveys warmth. 00:06:50.265 --> 00:06:53.145 If you cross your legs and I cross my legs, that's a, a 00:06:53.145 --> 00:06:56.505 warmth behavior, assertiveness to control of our environment. 00:06:56.595 --> 00:07:00.645 Faster reads of speech, what we call a shorter response latency. 00:07:00.945 --> 00:07:04.635 There's always a gap between when you stop speaking and when I start. 00:07:05.265 --> 00:07:10.080 And the shorter that gap, the more assertive I'm perceived to be. 00:07:10.110 --> 00:07:12.300 I didn't have to think very long about my answer. 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:13.500 I had it ready to go. 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:14.970 It's a sign of capability. 00:07:15.330 --> 00:07:19.770 Contact is a sign of warmth, but it is also a sign of assertiveness. 00:07:20.100 --> 00:07:22.680 When I first started doing this kind of status work, I looked 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:24.210 at the pair of verbal cues. 00:07:24.270 --> 00:07:26.190 I'll use women because women are often counseled. 00:07:26.520 --> 00:07:30.240 Don't use all the hedges and disclaimers and tag questions, that stuff's bad. 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:32.010 Do the more direct communication. 00:07:32.220 --> 00:07:37.435 The less direct, when I hedge, when I put in disclaimers, when I turn sentences 00:07:37.435 --> 00:07:41.875 into questions, that does build warmth, it's seen as a warmer behavior, but 00:07:41.875 --> 00:07:45.625 the more assertive, there are no filler words, I say exactly what I mean, 00:07:45.955 --> 00:07:50.215 every statement ends in a period, every question ends in a question mark, that 00:07:50.215 --> 00:07:51.865 behavior is seen as more assertive. 00:07:52.165 --> 00:07:57.205 So those kinds of behaviors that we exhibit do affect people's 00:07:57.205 --> 00:08:00.775 belief that we care about them and that we know what we're doing. 00:08:01.270 --> 00:08:02.409 Those are not the only ways. 00:08:02.469 --> 00:08:04.390 There are all kinds of other things that we do. 00:08:04.539 --> 00:08:08.140 The content, for example, of the communication is also really 00:08:08.140 --> 00:08:10.000 important for signaling those things. 00:08:10.659 --> 00:08:14.349 Jenny Luna: It sounds like there's a bunch of tools as we approach different 00:08:14.349 --> 00:08:18.820 situations and different people when we're trying to either show power, 00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:21.580 warmth in both at the same time. 00:08:22.180 --> 00:08:24.460 Alison Fragale: There's the non-negotiables and the negotiables. 00:08:24.520 --> 00:08:29.400 The non-negotiable is every time you show up in front of an audience, whether 00:08:29.400 --> 00:08:33.480 that's an audience of one, an audience of many, whether it's in person or 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:38.400 virtual on social media, whatever your audience is, when you show up in front 00:08:38.400 --> 00:08:43.260 of them in ways that convey you care about them and you know what you're 00:08:43.260 --> 00:08:45.540 talking about, you will build status. 00:08:45.540 --> 00:08:48.930 That's the non-negotiable part that everyone is trying to achieve. 00:08:49.650 --> 00:08:50.880 How do I do that? 00:08:51.210 --> 00:08:53.910 That's where you have infinite ways. 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:59.415 And so those tools that you talk about, verbal and nonverbal communication, it's 00:08:59.415 --> 00:09:05.205 good to be aware of them because you wanna know, do I have behaviors that are working 00:09:05.205 --> 00:09:10.035 for me, or might I actually have some habits that I'm not particularly aware 00:09:10.035 --> 00:09:16.005 of that are detracting from my status, and I don't even know that I do it? 00:09:16.305 --> 00:09:20.775 One example that I've been made aware of is self-deprecating. 00:09:20.775 --> 00:09:24.224 So actually voluntarily put out a statement that says, 00:09:24.555 --> 00:09:25.724 I am terrible at something. 00:09:26.204 --> 00:09:27.285 People do that all the time. 00:09:27.885 --> 00:09:30.915 If you tell somebody you're not very good at something, they generally believe you. 00:09:31.905 --> 00:09:34.094 And so you're saying, I'm not capable in this domain. 00:09:34.305 --> 00:09:36.675 And we do that for a variety of reasons. 00:09:36.675 --> 00:09:40.574 Sometimes we do it to convey warmth to say, oh, I'm not better than you. 00:09:40.574 --> 00:09:41.745 Look at all my mistakes too. 00:09:42.225 --> 00:09:47.535 Sometimes we do it as a form of humor, but it's all to say that many times we might 00:09:47.535 --> 00:09:52.964 be doing something that is detrimental to building our status and we're not 00:09:52.964 --> 00:09:58.035 aware of what it is, and therefore we're not even in a position to decide 00:09:58.425 --> 00:10:03.105 is this authentic and true to who I am and I'm sticking with it anyway, or no, 00:10:03.105 --> 00:10:04.605 I actually think I should change that. 00:10:04.965 --> 00:10:06.945 Jenny Luna: Another thing we talk about on the show is feedback. 00:10:06.945 --> 00:10:11.145 When we're trying to see how we show up, we may be missing 00:10:11.145 --> 00:10:12.705 things and having big blind spot. 00:10:12.885 --> 00:10:16.485 You write a lot about mentorship and having a mentor. 00:10:16.485 --> 00:10:20.595 I imagine a big part of that is getting feedback on things like how we show up. 00:10:21.375 --> 00:10:21.615 Alison Fragale: Yeah. 00:10:21.615 --> 00:10:25.575 My big thing on mentorship is at every stage of your life, you should 00:10:25.755 --> 00:10:28.455 have mentors and you should be mentoring other people from your 00:10:28.455 --> 00:10:32.505 first day in the workforce, if not before, and certainly your last day. 00:10:32.505 --> 00:10:33.885 We always need to be doing both. 00:10:34.245 --> 00:10:37.875 And on the getting mentorship side, yes. 00:10:38.175 --> 00:10:45.015 One of the things that I have found is that people who find it fairly 00:10:45.015 --> 00:10:50.115 easy to communicate, likeable badass, to communicate assertiveness more at 00:10:50.204 --> 00:10:54.464 the same time, almost always without fail, will tell me that they lucked 00:10:54.464 --> 00:10:59.925 into a mentor early in their life or career that modeled that for them, 00:11:00.225 --> 00:11:03.510 and that mentorship shouldn't just be something we luck into by chance. 00:11:04.130 --> 00:11:08.564 For me, I talk about this a lot, that my advisor, when I went to Stanford, 00:11:08.564 --> 00:11:14.200 when I got my PhD, is a woman and what was interesting was I signed on 00:11:14.200 --> 00:11:18.820 to work with her because of content expertise, that she was an expert in 00:11:19.150 --> 00:11:22.750 organizational psychology in the areas where I also wanted to develop expertise. 00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:27.040 I didn't pick her because I thought she can teach me a lot about 00:11:27.100 --> 00:11:29.890 building status and navigating reputation and things like that. 00:11:30.190 --> 00:11:34.055 But when I think back on what did she teach me that has been 00:11:34.055 --> 00:11:35.915 most impactful in my career? 00:11:36.035 --> 00:11:40.415 It's not the academic stuff, but what she was really brilliant at doing was 00:11:40.415 --> 00:11:44.584 thinking about, with intention, the relationship between how she communicated 00:11:44.584 --> 00:11:48.425 with her audience, her words, her actions, her verbals, nonverbals, all of 00:11:48.425 --> 00:11:51.125 that and what that would bring to her. 00:11:51.515 --> 00:11:55.415 And she was able to articulate that to me at a young age of, here's how 00:11:55.415 --> 00:11:56.824 you need to think about your audience. 00:11:56.824 --> 00:12:01.560 Jenny Luna: So sounds like we wanna look for people who emulate what we are 00:12:01.560 --> 00:12:06.360 looking to be, more so than have the job or the role that we currently have. 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:08.640 I've been really looking forward to talking with you because 00:12:08.640 --> 00:12:10.200 I just started a new job. 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:14.850 In my new job i'm filling my calendar, coffee dates, forming relationships, 00:12:14.850 --> 00:12:16.770 walking meetings, getting to know people. 00:12:17.310 --> 00:12:22.710 And the first thing I'm noticing is in my former role, there was a lot more small 00:12:22.710 --> 00:12:27.210 talk, a lot more relationship building that came in these early meetings. 00:12:27.690 --> 00:12:30.540 My new role people cut right to the chase. 00:12:30.660 --> 00:12:32.100 They wanna just talk business. 00:12:32.130 --> 00:12:35.220 There's no personal questions or really foundation to be laid. 00:12:35.220 --> 00:12:41.235 So I'm, would love to hear some advice from you on, do I revert and push 00:12:41.235 --> 00:12:46.064 that culture, way of getting to know people and trying to set relationships? 00:12:46.064 --> 00:12:50.204 Or do I go more for the mimicry and meet people where they're at? 00:12:50.954 --> 00:12:52.064 Alison Fragale: Try a combination of both. 00:12:52.094 --> 00:12:55.064 You can experiment, you can change a variable, you can see what happens. 00:12:55.064 --> 00:12:57.944 You don't have to do one thing consistently with every person forever. 00:12:58.185 --> 00:12:59.415 So what might I try? 00:12:59.660 --> 00:13:01.400 We often follow people's leads. 00:13:01.400 --> 00:13:05.180 So if you go in and you are the first mover in the conversation and 00:13:05.180 --> 00:13:08.000 you start with a couple personal things or a couple of questions, 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:10.190 you can see what response you get. 00:13:10.460 --> 00:13:14.630 If you are quiet when you walk in and they cut straight to the business, it 00:13:14.630 --> 00:13:17.930 might feel more awkward at that point to be like, wait, let's go back a minute. 00:13:18.590 --> 00:13:22.230 You can try to control the conversation from the beginning while still being 00:13:22.230 --> 00:13:23.939 sensitive to conversational norms. 00:13:23.939 --> 00:13:26.400 Where you get a sense if someone says, I've had enough of this line of 00:13:26.400 --> 00:13:28.410 questioning, and they're ready to move on. 00:13:28.860 --> 00:13:32.100 The second thing you can think about is you're playing a repeated game. 00:13:32.490 --> 00:13:36.660 So if someone in a, an initial interaction is very focused on the 00:13:36.660 --> 00:13:39.480 task at hand and you think, wow, there wasn't much opportunity there. 00:13:39.530 --> 00:13:41.930 What else could I do for a second round? 00:13:42.140 --> 00:13:46.459 People's lives are largely online, so you can, in a very appropriate way, 00:13:46.489 --> 00:13:49.520 stalk somebody and learn a lot about them that gives you an opportunity 00:13:49.520 --> 00:13:53.510 in the next interaction to, to lead with something that might get them 00:13:53.569 --> 00:13:56.930 interested in talking about things that are a little more personal. 00:13:57.380 --> 00:13:59.720 That could be from looking at their social media, reading 00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:01.250 their bio on the company website. 00:14:01.280 --> 00:14:04.339 It could be talking to people who know them, and what you would be 00:14:04.339 --> 00:14:07.370 looking for is points of similarity. 00:14:07.689 --> 00:14:08.890 If we look at psychology, right? 00:14:08.890 --> 00:14:11.050 Greatest basis of liking and attraction that psychology 00:14:11.050 --> 00:14:12.370 has ever found is similarity. 00:14:12.370 --> 00:14:15.640 And we like people who are like us when you find the 00:14:15.670 --> 00:14:17.439 thing that they have in common. 00:14:17.800 --> 00:14:21.910 Obviously when you're trying to highlight similarities, you have to be authentic. 00:14:21.910 --> 00:14:23.860 You can't pretend to like things you don't. 00:14:23.920 --> 00:14:25.329 It's gonna come across as phony. 00:14:25.329 --> 00:14:26.920 It's gonna destroy their relationship. 00:14:27.300 --> 00:14:30.329 But you could also be very strategic in looking for opportunities. 00:14:30.329 --> 00:14:35.530 So in the book, I tell a story of another academic Greg Northcraft. 00:14:35.760 --> 00:14:38.010 I know Greg through Maggie Neale. 00:14:38.280 --> 00:14:41.790 Greg and Maggie were assistant professors back at Arizona 00:14:41.790 --> 00:14:43.560 together long before I met her. 00:14:43.620 --> 00:14:45.270 And then I come into his circle as well. 00:14:45.660 --> 00:14:51.375 And so what he tells me is that one of the things he feels like he did really well 00:14:51.645 --> 00:14:55.665 in navigating his life as a professional in, in academia is developing personal 00:14:55.665 --> 00:14:59.444 connections with people by figuring out genuine points of similarity. 00:14:59.474 --> 00:15:01.245 And he said, look, I love to golf. 00:15:01.275 --> 00:15:03.615 And so the first thing I always try to do is figure out does 00:15:03.615 --> 00:15:04.724 the other person like to golf? 00:15:04.724 --> 00:15:08.385 'Cause I know if I can meet a fellow golfer, I can make a friend. 00:15:08.834 --> 00:15:11.655 And if I can make a friend, I'm gonna have a much easier time getting 00:15:11.655 --> 00:15:14.324 what I want and need because people will do things for friends that 00:15:14.324 --> 00:15:15.944 they won't do for, for strangers. 00:15:16.755 --> 00:15:21.795 He develops a consistent habit of trying to find the common points between him 00:15:21.795 --> 00:15:23.445 and his audience wherever he goes. 00:15:24.045 --> 00:15:26.955 And he tells me this story, which I relay in the book, and he said, the 00:15:26.955 --> 00:15:31.485 time that it worked better than ever was he had to go meet somebody on campus. 00:15:31.575 --> 00:15:35.310 The subject was scarce resources, scarce money, every reason to think 00:15:35.310 --> 00:15:37.365 there was going to be a bit of a fight. 00:15:37.640 --> 00:15:39.349 Because everybody wants the money. 00:15:39.829 --> 00:15:41.300 He said, but I did something intentional. 00:15:41.300 --> 00:15:45.949 I had the status to ask this guy to come to my office, but I deliberately said, 00:15:45.949 --> 00:15:47.589 let's schedule the meeting in your office. 00:15:47.589 --> 00:15:51.599 He said, I'll come to you, and he said, I did that for one reason only. 00:15:51.660 --> 00:15:55.170 I wanted to scan his physical space because then I could 00:15:55.170 --> 00:15:58.530 learn about him and then I could strike up a personal connection. 00:15:59.040 --> 00:16:01.560 So he says, I'm shaking his hand, and as I'm doing it, I'm 00:16:01.560 --> 00:16:03.930 looking over his shoulder like, what's in this guy's office? 00:16:04.020 --> 00:16:05.640 And he says, you're not gonna believe it. 00:16:06.105 --> 00:16:08.745 In the guy's office, behind the desk is a hole in one trophy. 00:16:09.585 --> 00:16:12.825 Said, if you're a golfer and you ever see a hole in one trophy, two things are true. 00:16:12.975 --> 00:16:17.445 One, there's a great story behind that trophy and the person behind the desk 00:16:17.475 --> 00:16:19.305 is just dying to tell you what it is. 00:16:19.605 --> 00:16:22.215 So this idea of how do I get people to chit chat? 00:16:22.755 --> 00:16:25.215 He made the opening, I see you've got a hole in one trophy. 00:16:25.275 --> 00:16:26.715 You've gotta tell me about that. 00:16:27.105 --> 00:16:29.645 And he knows the person can't wait to tell. 00:16:30.345 --> 00:16:33.750 And he says, we spend fifty-five of our allotted sixty minutes chatting 00:16:33.750 --> 00:16:36.480 golf, and by that point we are friends. 00:16:36.540 --> 00:16:41.130 And we take five minutes and we solve our money problem amicably 00:16:41.130 --> 00:16:42.210 in those last five minutes. 00:16:42.780 --> 00:16:46.990 And so I tell that story, I tell the book, I tell it all the time in 00:16:46.990 --> 00:16:50.980 front of audiences, and what I love about it is it's a beautiful blend 00:16:50.980 --> 00:16:52.900 of authenticity and strategy, right? 00:16:53.020 --> 00:16:56.560 If I don't know somebody, I've gotta learn about what they care about, and 00:16:56.560 --> 00:16:59.260 I've gotta figure out our points of common interest, and I've gotta bring 00:16:59.260 --> 00:17:03.160 them into the conversation, and I'm gonna do that deliberately with intention by 00:17:03.160 --> 00:17:07.240 going to someone else's office, by asking questions, doing the homework, et cetera. 00:17:07.750 --> 00:17:11.950 That's where you can start to bring those two together using behavioral science 00:17:12.040 --> 00:17:14.540 and who you truly are, merge the two. 00:17:14.849 --> 00:17:19.170 And you get this very fun, authentic way to live that also reaps large 00:17:19.170 --> 00:17:23.160 benefits by people finding the ways in which they see themselves in you. 00:17:24.180 --> 00:17:27.120 Jenny Luna: I love that because if we think we're gonna be strategic and 00:17:27.120 --> 00:17:31.275 intentional, we often think that we don't get to be authentic and be ourselves. 00:17:31.275 --> 00:17:35.055 And so that's just such a beautiful way to show that we can do both 00:17:35.565 --> 00:17:36.825 where it benefits everyone. 00:17:37.305 --> 00:17:40.455 Alison Fragale: I spend a lot of time right now and in this stage of my 00:17:40.455 --> 00:17:44.145 career speaking to women specifically, but what I'm about to say does not 00:17:44.145 --> 00:17:48.735 just apply to women, but it applies to anybody who looks different than 00:17:49.980 --> 00:17:51.870 the majority of people around them. 00:17:52.260 --> 00:17:57.060 I always say, if you look different and don't take any intentional 00:17:57.060 --> 00:18:01.080 action, it's possible that what you're communicating unintentionally to your 00:18:01.080 --> 00:18:02.670 audience is I am different than you. 00:18:02.700 --> 00:18:05.400 We don't have anything in common, so if we show up, we look 00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:07.020 different, and that's all there is. 00:18:07.020 --> 00:18:09.930 And we just get down to the business at hand, what our audience might 00:18:09.930 --> 00:18:11.550 conclude is we're not the same. 00:18:11.905 --> 00:18:14.635 And that is not gonna be to our strategic advantage 'cause 00:18:14.635 --> 00:18:16.105 human beings like similarity. 00:18:16.615 --> 00:18:18.175 Everybody has to do this. 00:18:18.415 --> 00:18:22.315 Something to be aware of is between any two human beings, there are genuine 00:18:22.315 --> 00:18:23.995 points of similarity and connection. 00:18:24.565 --> 00:18:28.675 If you can find them, you can rise above any other perceived 00:18:28.675 --> 00:18:31.735 difference and show people the true things that you have in common. 00:18:32.665 --> 00:18:32.905 Jenny Luna: Yeah. 00:18:32.905 --> 00:18:36.955 So we need to highlight that difference right away and bring that 00:18:36.955 --> 00:18:40.770 up rather than try to sweep it under the rug or pretend it's not there. 00:18:41.310 --> 00:18:46.080 Something I've also been thinking a lot about in my new role is first 00:18:46.080 --> 00:18:48.510 impressions and how important those are. 00:18:48.990 --> 00:18:52.020 But I'm curious, let's say we didn't set the right first impression. 00:18:52.020 --> 00:18:55.980 I didn't maybe get that warmth and assertiveness out in the first meeting. 00:18:55.980 --> 00:19:00.120 How bound am I to that first impression that I'm making? 00:19:01.485 --> 00:19:02.504 Alison Fragale: You're not bound to it, right? 00:19:02.504 --> 00:19:03.675 First impressions change. 00:19:03.705 --> 00:19:06.705 You've changed your mind about people, so they'll change their mind about you. 00:19:06.764 --> 00:19:10.965 But if you use yourself as a starting point and say, hmm, when 00:19:10.965 --> 00:19:14.504 I've changed my mind about people, I don't change my mind as easily 00:19:14.504 --> 00:19:16.095 as I formed my initial impression. 00:19:16.095 --> 00:19:19.455 So it might not be one more meeting, it might be two, three, and four. 00:19:19.455 --> 00:19:20.865 I might have to work on it a little bit. 00:19:20.925 --> 00:19:22.304 That's one thing to keep in mind. 00:19:22.995 --> 00:19:26.205 Um, second thing is another negotiation tactic that can be 00:19:26.205 --> 00:19:28.725 useful here is to use an agent. 00:19:29.790 --> 00:19:35.879 Sometimes we may not be the best messenger if we feel like we got off perhaps on the 00:19:35.879 --> 00:19:40.139 wrong foot, or I wasn't able to show up in the assertive, warm way that I wanted. 00:19:40.139 --> 00:19:43.169 Maybe my first meeting with somebody was about a disagreement or a conflict. 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:47.159 How am I gonna convey that who really respects me, that also 00:19:47.159 --> 00:19:48.540 has the respect of my audience? 00:19:48.840 --> 00:19:54.855 How could I use that person to help build my status, help change my reputation. 00:19:55.065 --> 00:19:58.425 If you've ever had an awkward interaction with somebody and you find out every 00:19:58.425 --> 00:20:01.035 other person you talk to loves them and thinks they're spectacular, 00:20:01.035 --> 00:20:03.735 and then you think, huh, maybe I should give 'em a second chance. 00:20:04.305 --> 00:20:08.175 The more people that are out there saying, right, oh, Jenny's amazing, 00:20:08.175 --> 00:20:09.975 Alison's amazing, the better off. 00:20:09.975 --> 00:20:12.555 So that's something you could think about doing very deliberately, is to 00:20:12.555 --> 00:20:15.660 say to somebody who really does respect you and value, say, I'm new here. 00:20:16.389 --> 00:20:18.790 I don't have a lot of opportunity to interact with this person. 00:20:18.790 --> 00:20:21.730 Or maybe our first interaction really wasn't that smooth. 00:20:22.120 --> 00:20:22.750 Can you help me? 00:20:23.139 --> 00:20:26.649 Can you, when it feels natural, talk about the great work 00:20:26.649 --> 00:20:27.879 that I'm doing and use them. 00:20:27.879 --> 00:20:29.980 And so a lot of times it's just about changing the messenger. 00:20:30.580 --> 00:20:32.709 Jenny Luna: So at the end of every episode, we ask 00:20:32.889 --> 00:20:34.840 each guest three questions. 00:20:35.320 --> 00:20:37.780 Two that we've been asking everybody, and then one that 00:20:37.870 --> 00:20:39.790 we make up, especially for you. 00:20:40.090 --> 00:20:40.689 Are you ready? 00:20:41.580 --> 00:20:42.450 Alison Fragale: Yes. 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:46.770 Jenny Luna: So I'm curious, what are you excited to study next, or what's 00:20:46.770 --> 00:20:48.720 bubbling up to the surface for you now? 00:20:49.650 --> 00:20:54.810 Alison Fragale: So what I've been doing a lot on, is thinking about 00:20:54.810 --> 00:20:58.050 this idea of power without status. 00:20:58.080 --> 00:21:01.350 It's a downer because it is a lot about the bad things that happen to 00:21:01.350 --> 00:21:02.940 us while we have power without status. 00:21:02.940 --> 00:21:07.200 So I've still been doing a lot of work in that space to show how important status 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:08.850 is and being able to live the life. 00:21:08.850 --> 00:21:11.430 So I've been doing a lot of work in civility and the mistreatment 00:21:11.430 --> 00:21:12.300 that happens to people. 00:21:12.690 --> 00:21:16.170 And again, although it's a bit of a downer, one of the things that I'm 00:21:16.170 --> 00:21:20.970 very focused on is how do we retain women throughout the career life 00:21:20.970 --> 00:21:25.020 cycle, particularly in what was like a leaky middle, where women, after 00:21:25.020 --> 00:21:28.860 having some success and advancing in organizations, are often leaving 00:21:29.250 --> 00:21:31.110 at like mid to senior levels. 00:21:31.590 --> 00:21:36.270 And it has a lot to do with what we see in terms of, of surveys of women feeling 00:21:36.270 --> 00:21:40.530 like as they get more power, but if they haven't successfully navigated status, 00:21:40.530 --> 00:21:44.690 they're encountering more interpersonal mistreatment, worse work environments. 00:21:44.990 --> 00:21:49.010 And that is prompting them to say, I don't wanna do this anymore, and I'm exiting. 00:21:49.490 --> 00:21:53.960 So I'm still doing that work and what I'm excited about is bringing that 00:21:54.020 --> 00:22:02.605 over to think about how do we create a better experience for women in the 00:22:02.605 --> 00:22:08.010 workforce at mid to senior levels that are gonna keep them advancing 00:22:08.010 --> 00:22:12.720 and keep better representation at the most senior levels for women. 00:22:13.290 --> 00:22:15.150 Bringing those two things together is something that 00:22:15.150 --> 00:22:16.800 I'm excited about right now. 00:22:17.970 --> 00:22:18.570 Jenny Luna: Awesome. 00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:22.020 I'll look forward to reading your next book as you move 00:22:22.020 --> 00:22:23.310 forward with that research. 00:22:24.090 --> 00:22:26.895 Who is a communicator you admire and why? 00:22:28.155 --> 00:22:31.395 Alison Fragale: Maybe because she is top of mind, but Maggie, my advisor, 00:22:31.605 --> 00:22:35.475 may be well known to this audience, but not worldwide, necessarily famous. 00:22:35.625 --> 00:22:42.764 She taught me more than anything how to be very clear and assertive about 00:22:42.825 --> 00:22:47.774 what it is that you want, while also never faltering from the importance 00:22:47.835 --> 00:22:49.755 of doing right by other people. 00:22:49.965 --> 00:22:54.375 I think that's why she's able to be very successful and I feel like a lot 00:22:54.375 --> 00:22:59.175 of times still to this day, twenty-five years after I met her, when I confront 00:22:59.175 --> 00:23:02.385 things that I think are difficult communication challenges, I'm always 00:23:02.385 --> 00:23:04.125 thinking like, what would Maggie do here? 00:23:04.125 --> 00:23:06.975 And there are still times where I call her and I say, my 00:23:06.975 --> 00:23:08.385 first instinct is to do this. 00:23:08.385 --> 00:23:09.945 And then she would say, let's think about that. 00:23:09.945 --> 00:23:11.445 Like how would your audience react to that? 00:23:11.865 --> 00:23:15.525 She's been very good at doing that and also teaching me to get into the 00:23:15.525 --> 00:23:17.955 head of my audience, that curiosity, a lot of that came from her. 00:23:18.745 --> 00:23:21.855 Jenny Luna: Alison, what are three ingredients that go into a 00:23:21.855 --> 00:23:24.225 successful communication recipe? 00:23:25.395 --> 00:23:28.965 Alison Fragale: Authenticity, strategy, and curiosity. 00:23:30.165 --> 00:23:31.755 Jenny Luna: Tell me a bit more about curiosity. 00:23:32.435 --> 00:23:36.810 Alison Fragale: Communication is going to be a communicator and a receiver. 00:23:37.470 --> 00:23:42.150 The more curious you are about your audience, the better able you are 00:23:42.420 --> 00:23:45.690 to communicate in a way that's going to land, that's going to resonate. 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:49.140 When I think about people who are really good communicators, or when I 00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:53.429 think about times when I've done a good versus a bad job, the more curious I am 00:23:53.429 --> 00:23:57.179 about trying to understand my audience, it informs the other two, right? 00:23:57.179 --> 00:24:00.870 Authenticity was obviously your version of, of you, but it informs 00:24:00.870 --> 00:24:03.269 the strategy, so we have to get curious about other people. 00:24:03.735 --> 00:24:04.545 Jenny Luna: Thank you so much. 00:24:04.545 --> 00:24:06.495 This has been a great conversation, Alison. 00:24:06.495 --> 00:24:09.645 I've learned a lot and I'm excited to apply some of the things we've 00:24:09.645 --> 00:24:11.235 talked about to my new job too. 00:24:11.805 --> 00:24:12.435 Alison Fragale: Amazing. 00:24:12.555 --> 00:24:13.185 Pleasure to be here. 00:24:15.435 --> 00:24:17.715 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:24:17.715 --> 00:24:20.325 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:24:20.715 --> 00:24:23.505 To learn more about status and power, please listen to 00:24:23.505 --> 00:24:25.605 episode 12 with Deb Grunfeld. 00:24:25.990 --> 00:24:30.280 And to learn more about the work of Maggie Neale, please listen to episode 15. 00:24:30.910 --> 00:24:36.100 This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:24:36.370 --> 00:24:38.020 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:24:38.110 --> 00:24:40.600 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:44.530 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:24:44.710 --> 00:24:46.870 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:24:47.050 --> 00:24:52.240 Also follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram and check out FasterSmarter.io for 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:56.925 deep dive videos, English language learning content and our newsletters. 00:24:57.285 --> 00:25:00.975 Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, 00:25:01.455 --> 00:25:07.385 Ask Matt Anythings and much more at FasterSmarter.io/premium.