[00:00:00] Dan: [00:00:05] Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Ham. [00:00:13] Pie: And I am Pia Lee. [00:00:14] Dan: Well, it's the evening for me Pia, and I think it's the morning there. If I, uh, recognize those bird [00:00:21] Pie: hear a few little. [00:00:22] Dan: I can. Yes. [00:00:24] Pie: native birds in the background. Yes, it's beautiful, beautiful day again today, quite hot, so you've gotta jump on. I've got a t-shirt. Obviously people can't see that here. And um, yeah, I've just done my little troll around the global news. So I have all the Al Jazeera, I have, uh, bbc, Sydney Morning Herald. Do a little trip around the world. Go and see what's on the news. [00:00:46] Dan: Excellent. What are you, what are you, What are you uncovering? What you, what [00:00:49] Pie: Well, and I, I thought something struck me actually, and I thought was quite, quite related to our guests, uh, Amy Riley to today. So, um, terrible, terrible week for gun violence in the US. And a horrific instance, you know, five people died at the Club Q um, a Colorado gay night club. [00:01:17] But the interesting story that I think relates today that really sort of came out for me that there was a Army veteran, he'd done four combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, and he was there with his family and his wife, and his name was Richard Fierro. And he saw this guy starting to open fire. And all his training kicked in. But as he, in the press conferences, he talked about it. He said his instinct was to save his family. And what he meant by his family was everyone that was in that nightclub, not just his immediate family, [00:01:56] Dan: It's a we not me moment of the first order. [00:01:58] Pie: extraordinary. So he launched himself at this guy who was pretty big. Um, and Richard was pretty big and, and he whacked him with the gun that the guy had, but he needed some additional help. So then there was a guy called Thomas James, who was standing there, who was a drag artist who was standing next to him. And he asked for his help and he him with his high heels on and that finished the job off. [00:02:27] So thought that was a we not moment would've thought, you know, trying to a point of a shooting inside a gay nightclub that [00:02:37] Dan: Yeah, you, you're an anti-gay and you get end up being knocked out with the high heel of a, of a of a drag queen. Absolutely. Perfect. Absolutely perfect. But much joking aside, so much courage shown. I [00:02:53] Pie: oh, huge courage. Huge courage. [00:02:56] Dan: Yeah, which is a brilliant segue actually into, as you say, into today's, uh, today's show because we are talking to Amy Riley. She's an author of, but called The Courage of the Leader, and she has loads of good stuff to share, um, about teams, team leadership and teamwork itself. So, um, yeah, this is a really juicy one, so let's go and hear what Amy has to say. [00:03:20] Pie: Hi Amy and welcome to We, not Me, delightful to have you. [00:03:25] Amy: I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me. [00:03:28] Pie: And it's really great because I had the honor of being on your podcast, courage of a leader, uh, not so many months ago. And so it's great to switch, switch roles and amplify our conversation around the things that you have a deep passion and knowledge for. But, in the relationship to teams. So really looking forward to that. Um, before that I hand you over to Mr. Hammond for the card exercise. [00:03:56] Dan: I [00:03:57] Amy: Oh no. What question am I get? [00:04:00] Dan: exactly. [00:04:02] Pie: he's been making them up. [00:04:03] Dan: I'm gonna ly later at random. So, um, it'd be funny, really made up a bad, oh, you've gotta. Oh, you've got a red card. It's, it's, we were beaming one. These are the tricky ones I'm most embarrassed about. [00:04:18] Pie: Oh, [00:04:21] Dan: I [00:04:21] Pie: where do you [00:04:22] Dan: I do believe that's the in the pack. So Amy, the courage of the leader is about to be shown. [00:04:28] Amy: All right. So here's the embarrassing moment that first came to mind. So I'm in, I'm in high school, I'm in choir, and I was up way too late the night before talking on the telephone. [00:04:44] Pie: Oh, the old. [00:04:45] Amy: we, we were practicing for a concert, so we were standing all period long singing, singing, singing. All of a sudden, I wake up, my head is on one riser, my knees are on the next riser, and my butt is in the air. I faint. [00:05:07] Pie: Oh, [00:05:08] Amy: I fainted and I just fell on top of my classmates and woke up, but in the air. And then I just talked my legs around me and I cut my head down, and one of my best friends was in the class. She's like, are you okay? And I'm like, I'm okay. Can we just go to the nurse, like not look at anyone and just go to the nurse? [00:05:30] Dan: Just, eyes front. Keep [00:05:32] Pie: just move me out. [00:05:33] Amy: Yes. [00:05:34] Dan: these things stay with you, don't they? They really [00:05:36] Amy: stay with me, right? And like, I wish I could go back and just own the moment, but like, this is hilarious. [00:05:43] Pie: Yeah. [00:05:44] Amy: I, you know, like I woke up like this, and just like owned it, turned around, taken about. But you know, I just, I stayed embarrassed and like scooted out and then I had to think about walking into chorus the next day. Just own it. I'm a human being and I faint. [00:06:02] Pie: Yep. And it's more like, are you okay? Are you okay? [00:06:05] Amy: Yeah. . Yeah. Now what are you doing, [00:06:09] Dan: Sadly, sadly, we just, yeah, when we're young, we, I often think that if, if we had, you know, you learn these little tricks and owning moments and things to say and do, and you have none of them when you're a child, when there are so many opportunities for it. So, um, certainly I didn't. Pia, I bet you did, didn't you? [00:06:27] Pie: I have so many, so I was actually gonna say, I do not wanna hide chat this, but when you, that card came up, the most embarrassing moment was in my previous life I was a teacher and I had to teach aerobics, which for somebody who actually doesn't understand beats in music, was a really bad combination. So I used to really confused most classes cuz I never could keep to the beat. [00:06:49] But then the other embarrassing thing that happened to me was that as I was demonstrating some vigorous movements, my bra came undone . While I was actually leading the class, I had to do some quick thinking, which was I actually made them. Okay, now we're going to turn a step to the right and, and get them to face the back of the class whilst I could do a, a quick [00:07:14] Amy: Hook, [00:07:15] Pie: cause honestly, it was, it was all gonna get, you know, and being slightly heavier chested, I was gonna end up, it was, it was gonna end up with a couple of black eyes for me and all over for [00:07:25] Dan: We're [00:07:25] Pie: the [00:07:26] Dan: all concerned [00:07:27] Amy: Wow. [00:07:28] Pie: But I managed to arrest the problem in more ways than one and, and solve it. Yeah. That's, that's what, that's whats to mind. [00:07:36] Dan: That swings to mind. Thanks for that pier. Um, moving along very swiftly. Um, Amy, um, welcome. I think we, you've, you've set us off on a lovely track here. Um, tell us about yourself. Just, um, give us a little bit of an intro about what you get up to, um, and what got you here. [00:07:53] Amy: Excellent. Excellent. I'm so glad to have made it through the red card. Uh, yes. [00:07:59] Pie: relax. [00:08:01] Amy: I'm Amy Riley with the Courage of a Leader. I'm a keynote speaker, a number one international bestselling author and a consultant, and. I work to empower leaders to fully step into their purpose and inspire, engage those around them and get extraordinary results. [00:08:27] Pie: That is amazing. And that's a big journey to get there. So tell us, how did you get to this point? Who was, who is Amy who face planted on the straight on the stage? [00:08:38] Dan: And but in the air to number one bestselling author, [00:08:41] Pie: to, to number one that ha know [00:08:47] Amy: A few steps between then and now. Yeah, it was. 26 years ago, almost now, when I decided I wanna be an external consultant, I wanna create customized learning and development solutions for organizations, leaders, groups, teams. And at first I thought it was customized training, whatever you wanted, and I really quickly learned that I was passionate about supporting leaders. [00:09:18] Leaders when they're doing their jobs, right, they've got a big job. Right. They've got team members coming to them, colleagues, managers, a variety of holders, different kinds of pressure. They're, you know, messages are coming to them. They're thinking about how do I relay these messages to my team? They're talking about taking their team, their division, their group in a new direction. There's just a lot that they're processing in their heads and their hearts. [00:09:47] Pie: And what, and what we are seeing through the work with Squadify is giving us such a, um, a, a great insight into the pressures actually, that those leaders are facing. And this is probably in our lifetime. Uh, Quite unique, those pressures. What, what are you seeing with the people that you are working? What are those pressures like, and what impact is that having? [00:10:10] Amy: Um, I, I hear so many leaders talking about retention now. How do I retain top talent? How do I keep them challenged? Meaningful work? Um, unfortunately, some of it is kind of taking us in the wrong direction, where people are so afraid. Leaders are so afraid to hold team members accountable, graciously, right? To invite them to step up, to play at a big level cuz they're afraid of scaring them off. But we wanna have that courage right now, right? People want meaningful work and they wanna do important work and, you know, be able to have an impact, uh, on their colleagues and their work and their, with their, with their customers. And I want, don't shy away from that, right? And, and invite people in to step up and do big things. [00:11:07] Dan: So interesting though, Amy. I, I, I think we see this in different guises all the time, but you summed it up really beautifully that people think that holding someone to account will make them leave. Partly because we, yeah, we, we just don't, we sort of see directive leadership and they say fair leadership and don't, and don't master this thing in between where we are being constructive and purposeful and all of those things. It's sort of what if I tell 'em what to do? They'll leave. Yeah, they will. But how about something you don't have to, you know, be like that necessarily. But I think you've, you've summed it up. And it's fascinating to make that link to the great resignation or whatever's happening the. The great departure or whatever that, that, um, that leaders are, are sort of working like that. [00:11:51] So how do you work with leaders in that specific situation? Give us an example of how you'd, how you'd work with a leader that's, that's got that mindset and is with that, those genuine challenges. [00:12:02] Amy: Uh, I, I start to ask, Questions about the individuals that they're hesitant to hold to account, right? Who are they? What are they interested in? What are their strengths? Uh, I'm a big believer in strengths based leadership and how can we have everybody playing to their natural strengths, delivering the innate value that they most know how to deliver. And what's interesting and what's important to them. Right? And how does the work match up to that? And talking about like what's, what's holding you back? What are you afraid of? Do you, do you know that? Is that true? Have you had that overt conversation with that person? What if you did? Right. Oh, well, you might find out it's true. Well, you're already afraid. It's true. [00:13:05] Dan: So it just where you are. [00:13:07] Amy: So, so yeah. So let's talk about it and you might find out it's not true. You might find out it's partially true. Well, and then, and then what will you do? I mean, I think, um, Dan, the biggest value that I can provide is just thinking that through, just reflecting on what's going on, what do I really know? What fears am I making up? And, and what will I do if the, the truth is somewhere along this continuum. [00:13:37] Pie: And so your focus, Amy, is around the leader having, and I guess that that also gets translated to the team having belief and having purpose. Tell us about, tell us about that. What that. What the value is to team leadership and how yeah, how that can really be powerful for both the leader and the team. [00:14:02] Amy: Yeah. Yeah. Pia. You know, I like to talk about purpose. I like to talk about belief. I would love for every leader. And we're all leaders, right? I would love for every leader to declare and fully step into their leadership, pur their leadership legacy, I call it, which is the purpose for our leadership, which can be a leadership's uh, trait. It can be a new way of doing things. A new business model, a new approach, improved processes. Or it could be, you know, I'm the leader that brings care and compassion to relationships, right? Or I'm the leader that builds diverse teams, or I'm the leader that develops others, or I create innovative cultures. Whatever that unique value is that you provide, knowing and stepping into that purpose and then inviting all the leaders around you to do the same. [00:15:05] You know, sometimes people get mired down in a situation and then you ask, what do you want? What do you really want for yourself, for the work, for the other person? For the relationship, right? And, and at the crux of it all people, very, very general, you know, for the vast majority, they have great intentions, right? They wanna do great things. And when we're in touch with that belief, that intention, Right. And we, and we believe in the person across from us, and we believe that there can be movement, uh, in this situation, forward progress, right? When we come from that belief, then we get stuff done. [00:15:55] Dan: Amy, you, you, um, wrote a book. You mentioned that just now, you, you there, I think there are about 500 leadership books published every year. What was the, what was the thing that was missing for you that, that your book feels, what was that? What was, that was the essence of that. [00:16:11] Amy: I realized, uh, in doing the work that I do and getting to observe different kinds of leaders and different kinds of situations, that every time I was impressed or inspired by a leader, that leader was demonstrating true courage. The courage to be themselves, the courage to be vulnerable. Um, the courage to take their group in a new direction. Uh, the book covers the courage of a leader. Four pillars, uh, I, I should use that language, the courage to be authentically you. The courage to say what needs to be said. The courage to trust the legacy, which is your leadership legacy. And the courage to be bold and create the extraordinary [00:17:02] Pie: I think that's a really interesting, almost dissection of what that courage is, because I would imagine we have aspects of it that are easier than than others. You know what, what bit do you find that, that we're struggling with most? [00:17:15] Amy: Oh goodness. I think we, I think we struggle with, we struggle with it all. Um, I'd like to say that may, one of the silver linings of the pandemic is realizing that we all are whole people. We need to show up as whole people and leaders need to connect with their whole person and connect with, you know, the whole persons that are in front of them. [00:17:38] So I'm, I'm hopeful. That we are making great strides forward, encouraged to be authentically you. Right? We're inviting each other into our homes now. There's been more, um, more exposure and more relatedness, uh, as we have globally dealt with this pandemic and the virtual work and all of the other consequences that have come. [00:18:08] Um, I think the courage to be bold and create the extraordinary, like it could just be really easy to get into a swirl of busyness, right? And I'm just like knocking out my to-do list and what people throw my way and I'm not thinking about what really serves my purpose here, right? What, what really is gonna serve the work? What results do we really want and need here? And are the actions that I'm taking. Going to get us there. It's like a, A lot of mindless churn. [00:18:41] Dan: Completely. We, we, um, being consultants, we obviously have two by two matrices and, uh, you know, we have this one which is sort of with, with one one axis, how much you are involved with, you focus on people and on the other one how much you are trans transformational versus transactional and the other, you know, so, and people are driven at the moment down into that transactional task area instead of the transformational, be bold, transformational people area. [00:19:09] It's so interesting, isn't it? And we've got a lot to learn, I suspect, haven't we? Around virtual working and, um, and how we, with your help of your book, how we move up into that upper quadrant to be bold. [00:19:22] Amy: Well, and yeah, and virtual work. Oh, so many organizations asking about our culture. What's gonna happen to our culture? And I think the really, the question is around how are we gonna continue to connect? And connect in meaningful ways? [00:19:43] And yes, it used to be easy to run into people in the hallway, and if you are now, your organization is now working fully, remotely, or mostly remotely, those casual collisions are not happening. So what are your ways of working, right? How are you gonna make that happen intentionally? [00:20:08] Right. It, it's like when you get the ding, ding, ding, you know the team's call is coming on your computer. That's like Stan walking by in the hallway, right? You, you, you pick it up, you say hello. Right? And, and how are you going connect and operate? [00:20:24] I mean, I think that there's, especially organizations that have a hybrid model, there's an opportunity to strategically choose the work environment that's gonna work best. For the people and the work. When do you wanna come together in person and leverage that? When is, when is work done more productively, virtually? Cause there's some cool tools we can make use of virtually to like gather information and ideas in more streamlined ways than we can in person. [00:20:59] Dan: And yet, weirdly, we've just uplifted the rather stale office environment and actually put done it virtually, which is less effective, isn't it? And not using those tools very often. [00:21:08] Pie: Well, we sort of sleepwalk into the situation and look at it very transactionally, whereas the environment creates the opportunity for us to learn. But I, I'm so heartened by using that word intentional because I think that wakes you up from the sleepwalk to go, actually, I've gotta really think about this. How are we going to do it? And what tools are available and what, how could we do it? And when can we meet? And what's the reason for meeting? And how do we make that really rich? [00:21:33] So you've, you've got different mediums for the way of interacting and connecting, but they're not, they're not humdrum that we're making conscious choices around that. [00:21:44] Amy: No, no. I've, I've, um, I've got what I think is an exciting story. Um, I was working with a leader who has a group of, um, financial analysts. Many of them were introverted, many of them were processors, right? Very analytical, and they were trying to make decisions working remotely as a team. And I'm working with the leader and she's saying, Amy, it's like pulling teeth. It's crickets, you know? No one's saying anything. So let's, let's get innovative here. Let's think about how can, how can we use the technologies? You've got a tech savvy group here. How can we use the technology to make the decision making process more rich? [00:22:31] So she's got a number of things that she does now. So first of all, before they start attacking a problem or designing a solution or analyzing something, she puts, um, a shared document out there. Name all of the considerations we'll need to talk through in order to make this decision. It's anonymous, like you can't even see who adds. So now you know what you need to go through. She'll create a chart of the different stakeholders, and then at some point in the decision making process, like maybe when the, you know, solution feels mostly baked, what do we think? Give a number one through 10, like just and annotate in the Zoom meeting, put in number one through 10. How much will this solution benefit the different stakeholder groups? [00:23:20] Now you've got all these numbers on the screen. and you can see, okay, we really, this is gonna, you know, benefit the such and such group. They're gonna be our biggest advocates. We can see the, okay, these folks we think will be our biggest resistors. We can also see, hey, we've got nines and twos in the same column. We're not thinking about this the same way amongst us. Let's have that conversation. Right. So yeah, really use some of the virtual. Features to augment the decision-making process. [00:23:53] Pie: and I think that's the, that's the clever way of. Of being almost 3D using the technology in a way to make that fully inter interactive. [00:24:02] Dan: And, and I love that Amy. I think actually it's, it's also a, um, a lesson in how to turn the qualitative into something quantitative that appeals to a lot a certain group of people. You know, you, you can judge how happy are they gonna be, and suddenly you've got things that people can relate to. And, uh, and it, it, rather than just talking around the topic, I thought, I think that's inspired. [00:24:24] While we're on practical tips, Amy, I'm going to embarrass you now. Um, By, because, um, you have an amazing approach talking about connection. You have an amazing approach. I know, um, uh, to helping people to connect in a team through the task. Do you wanna talk, I've talked to you about this in the past, and we've actually used your tool, and when you mentioned it to me, I, it just blew me away as such a clever idea that you've brewed up to really help teams to connect in a different way. I want, it would be really great if you could talk that. [00:24:57] Amy: Yeah. Yeah. This, this stemmed from some conversations that I had with leaders around, oh my gosh. Our work, our, our plates are so full that I know when I have. Coffee connect with Juliet as my last meeting of the day. It's like, oh my gosh, I've been going from this meeting to this meeting, to this meeting, to this conversation. Like I'm burnt out. Like it seems like the last thing I should do right now is have this coffee chat. Right? Or it's the last thing I wanna do. And I, and, and I get it. And we, we need, we need to connect. [00:25:39] So thinking about, you know, anyone who's resisting it for a variety of normal human reasons, um, or feeling like we don't have time for it, let's connect with questions that are directly related to the work. Okay. New project is coming. What are you excited about? What are you concerned about? What do you think is gonna be our biggest obstacle? What strength can you bring to this project, right? What are our collective strengths? How do we leverage those with this project? So asking questions. We're learning about the individuals, we're learning about each other, and it's directly related to the work. [00:26:25] Dan: I really love that. And you think, you sort of talked about what are you most worried about, what are you excited about? All these things that are personal, that are around the task because it's something we spend a lot of time doing actually is even before teams can work together, they have to connect and setting up conversations is, is is always valuable. But sometimes people are a little bit skeptical about the value of that, and I'm really busy and what do I need to have my regular call with that person? Whereas you really bolted that to the work and made it immediately relevant and it sort of makes that person builds that personal connection in a really, um, in a way that's gonna suit everyone. I think I, I, I thought it was a, it's an inspired idea that I think, uh, anyone could take away to their team. [00:27:08] Amy: Oh, great. Yeah. And then you can build on it from there, right? And then you, you don't have somebody out of the gate going, why do I have to talk about my hobbies or my [00:27:17] Dan: Exactly the name of my cat. Why is this relevant? Yeah, this is, it's really, it's, it's, it's anchored to something really relevant and builds a personal connection. Yeah. Love it. [00:27:27] Pie: and in terms of that connection, What are you seeing as getting in the way? What's, what's the biggest challenge for teams? You talked about business, but you know, are you seeing, uh, you seeing burnout? Are you seeing stress? What's, what's getting in the way of that? Because, we hear all the time people want to be connected and yet they still rate it in Squadify very low. And that, that's perplexing for me. Trying to understand what's going on to create [00:27:58] Amy: per, it's perplexing to me as well. Pia. Um, yeah, I, I think, I think burnout. and maybe burnout for different reasons. I, I seem to talk to some people who their, like, their plates are just so full, right? There's, there's supply chain issues or these, there's these changes coming and all of that is just having this, making more work to get the same result. [00:28:31] I also talk to people who have too many meetings. Now it has become half hour Teams call Zoom, call WebEx, whatever it is, you know, like hour after hour after hour and you know, barely getting time to eat or take a sip of water or let alone go to the bathroom. Like in, be in between, um, meetings. [00:28:58] Pie: it's a bit like we're trying to process, I think. I think, you know, we don't realize quite how much we've had to process and how much noise there now is in our lives. And dan and I have often talked about this, you know, technology has advanced, but maybe our brains haven't advanced and our ability to be able to manage that very large amount of information that comes through to us. And so we trade and we just think, well, our focus narrow in on, on more task. And I'll actually, you know, the relationships I'll relegate and I'll relegate that connection, but it comes back to bite. [00:29:37] Amy: Yeah. I mean, I also writing down multitasking, it can be so alluring in this virtual world to grab the phone or to take this note over here or do some multitasking instead of being present. With the person that's on the other side of the camera. [00:30:00] I've had a couple of leaders tell me recently that they've put a transformational post-it note, a post-it note that says, be present or listen or pause. I was joking with someone the other day. I'm like, post-it notes can be transformational. But just that, that regular reminder, cuz I think we're, we're just sped up in our, our minds and our activity to be processing all this information. And I gotta think about the next thing. And even if we're engaged in the conversation, somebody says something and it has us thinking, oh yeah, well that would mean I would wanna talk to her about that and I'm gonna wanna do that thing, and we're engaged in the topic, but now my mind is off and running and I'm no longer present with the person I'm with. [00:30:48] Dan: And there is pressure from the system, isn't it? If you bump into a senior executive, in the old days in the corridor, they don't say, Hey, have you had your one-on-one with your team members? They're gonna say, Like my old CEO used to say, how are sales today? And you better have an answer. You know, [00:31:04] Pie: Same as yesterday. [00:31:05] Dan: Same as yesterday. Exactly. It just the, um, but literally every day. Boom. And, and you know, in a way it sort of keeps you focused, but, um, but you know, it's where the force comes from in the, in the system. What, what, what success looks like, isn't it? And so a lot of this, isn't it, talk about the courage of a leader, it takes courage to actually swim upstream a little bit against that and do some other things and prioritize other things, right? [00:31:30] Amy: Yeah, yeah. Stay committed to your purpose. Stay committed to that pursuit of the important result. [00:31:37] Pie: and with that, I'm gonna turn to a personal question. What was it like writing a book about the courage of a leader, which is. Inevitably going to trigger your own, you know, your own views and feelings and beliefs around your own courage. What inspired you and, and what did you learn along the way? [00:31:55] Amy: Yeah, I just, I felt like this needed to be more of the mainstream conversation. You know, that talking about going for it, talking about vulnerably, connecting with that person across from you is, is, is where we need to be in, in leadership and not, not, not another book that says, here is your formula to give feedback. I mean, all that's valuable, right? It helps us work through it. Uh, but that, you know, this is, this is calling for something from you and your character. [00:32:36] And yeah, there are many moments where I'm like, this is a practice. Once you preach moment, Amy. Um, and you know, the book is filled with many examples from my work, from my observation, from interviews that I did, and there are activities, examples, charts throughout the book. Cuz I want it to be accessible. I want people to be able to do the work. How does this apply to the trouble I'm having in my relationship with my team member right now? Right? Let me, let me think that through. Uh, how do I get a breakthrough idea, uh, in this, in this situation? [00:33:21] Pie: And that accessibility, I think that's a key part. we tend to have made some of this knowledge, um, slightly out of reach or for only a few, and I think making that accessible to then enables. All of us to practice and put it, put it into, put it into the context of our own teams in the environment that we're in. [00:33:41] Dan: And Amy, we can't, uh, not speak to you and ask you, you have many personas. You, you, you're a mother wife, you, you, you're a speaker, author, you're also a runner. Talk to us about your running, briefly, what you get up to on that front, because, it's pretty amazing what you've been doing. [00:33:59] Amy: What inspires me about running two things. One is I like to set a big goal. And I like to have goals to, to encourage me to, um, train and to work a process, right? And to, and to have a plan. It's how I think about leadership legacies in our lives. That we have this leadership legacy and we look to that for. Guidance. What's next? What would my leadership legacy want me to do here? So when I've got a goal and there's a plan and I'm working with my coach, it provides clarity for me. [00:34:42] And then something that I love about a race day. Is that it's just everybody supporting everybody. You know? I mean, spectators are out there and they're cheering just as loud for the person in first place and the person who's bringing up the rear, right? Like, we're, we're excited that they're finishing this race today. I, I mean, I have never had a runner that is passing me or that I've passed, said, you know, have a crappy race. You know, everybody's like, good job. You're doing great. You know? [00:35:16] And everybody who shows up to that start line has something at stake, right? They did something to get there that day and they're going for it. They're putting themselves out there on the line, whether they've trained perfectly or skipped half the raining or whatever it is, right? Everybody's there with something on the line and they're going for it on race day, and that inspires [00:35:42] Pie: Yeah. A real we not me [00:35:44] Dan: Yeah, definitely, definitely [00:35:46] Amy: yeah, I talked to, I talked to somebody the other day and she had some relatives that did the New York City Marathon, and that's a, that's a high energy race in the us. I haven't done it yet. It's, it's, it's, it probably is the next one that I wanna make sure, uh, I do. And she said, um, she's a runner, but she hasn't done that distance. She's like, I'm inspired to do a marathon. She's like, we have so much division in our world. But on that day it was just like, yeah. Everybody was like, let's get these runners to the finish line. And I said, you do that. I will be your biggest support. All along the way. [00:36:25] Pie: Yeah. We will too. It's like that is a humanity we not me moment, you know? You feel them. You feel that element. And we need, do we actually intentionally need to create more of that? Because we, otherwise, the, the subversive nature of the division is just, is just driving a wedge between us. So we've actually got to face that and, and find ways to be able to bring us together and enjoy that. [00:36:50] Dan: So Amy, thank you. That's a lovely, um, way to cap that off. But I'm gonna ask you one further question, which is to, you know, we're, we're all about like you are practical tips, like you said of your book. How do you, what can you actually do? You've got a real. I've got an issue. It's great to read leadership book and oh, one day I might use this stuff, but actually I, I, I need it, need things right now. So where would you, um, recommend some our listener starts, um, does something different. What's your advice to them to help to connect with others? [00:37:23] Amy: Declare your leadership legacy. What's the bigger picture purpose of your leadership? You find this by looking at your strengths, where you bring value. Where you are passionate, you have interest, and where those two arenas intersect, that's the place of your leadership legacy. And I say, you know, I don't, I don't care if you're fresh out of out of school. Right? Declare that leadership legacy. Start living into it fully. And you'll very soon find out if there's a little tweak to make there [00:38:04] Dan: Wonderful. Thank you Amy. And I'm sure if people need help with that, you are on hand to do it. So, uh, people can definitely connect with you to, uh, To help them through it. So we've done it many times. So, um, Amy, thank you so much for being with us on, we Not Meet Today. We've been looking forward to this for a very long time, and, uh, it's been a real treat. A real treat. [00:38:24] Amy: Excellent. Thank. you both. This was fun. [00:38:30] Dan: You know, what Amy said there about barriers to connection just resonated so much of me about what I'm seeing. I think you are seeing as well, Pia, with teams at the moment about, um, those two pieces about burnout and distraction. I think it's really interest This year has been very challenging for individuals to, to deal with because of those two things. I think there's a lot going on, but also, you know, and that. I think it's just putting, put people under immense pressure and for some reason we tend to sort of think we can deal with that on our own instead of going towards others sometimes. So it's, it's sort of fra caused fragmentation a little bit, brought us away from each other and whereas the answer is, I think, to go the other way, just as Amy was saying, [00:39:16] Pie: And I think, I mean, you're absolutely right and it's interesting, you know, we do so much of our work virtually, but I swear I can smell the fumes and burns from here, even when I'm looking into a zoom. It is your [00:39:29] Dan: Yeah. Yeah. You, you can s you can just the wiss of [00:39:33] Pie: Yeah, and it's interesting actually because they're quite, they're, they're two different things. I mean, burnout and distraction. But sometimes , we're trying to, we're trying to distract ourselves from the fact that we're feeling burnt out. We're trying to do other things to take our mind and not really facing into, I'm feeling burnt out. There are things that I should be doing more. It's almost like we can't face it. And then that disconnects. Even more, which I think was, was interesting. [00:40:04] You know, that we, you and I have had this, you know, teams that desperately need to come together. The, the I'm too busy excuse, is a reason not to come together when it's actually probably the most important thing to be doing right now. And we're not sort of saying that you need to be giving up hours and hours of time to do it, but it does need a different type of conversation, that intention behind [00:40:27] Dan: Definitely, definitely. And we, we, we are strange, aren't we? Us humans. We, we sort of know what needs to be done, but then we willfully distract ourselves from doing that sometimes. And I think there's a, that what we really need is human connection and collaboration. But we, so, oh, there's a task. I'll just go and do that. Cause that's, that's much easier. [00:40:47] Pie: It gives you the dopamine [00:40:48] Dan: Yeah, exactly. And I, you know, I'm, I'm reading, um, Atomic Habits at the moment by James Clear, as you know, and I'm really well listening to it and I'm really enjoying that and yeah, and making, he's really aware that it's not about, You know, doing well, it's not about just putting a grunt in and being really determined. It's actually making your habits easy for yourself. So we, we naturally avoid that, that difficult. So it's worth really being intentional about. Okay, that is a bit tricky. May not be the main thing, but let me not distract myself away from it. Let me, let me do it. Yeah, it's, um, it's a, I think for the, in 2023, that is going to be a big theme. [00:41:29] I was really interested as well in, um, what Amy said about her team of financial analysts that she's worked with, which is who were, you know, very, you know, you'd say, sort of quite task oriented, very smart, you know. Yes. Analytical, getting on with things on their own and how that team leader managed to pull them together, um, using tools online, you know, polling and um, and whiteboards and so on. [00:41:54] It reminded me of once I, um, hired a marketing director. And he met with his team for the first time, or had a little, a mini offsite actually. And he, what he did, he brought post-it notes to this meeting. I know it was incredible. And you know, I'd [00:42:11] Pie: Were [00:42:12] Dan: a, there were all kinds of different pens and everything, but I mean, joking aside, I'd been a marketing director and, um, all kinds of jobs and, um, I'd not done that. And he's still, to this day the only sort of line manager I've seen who's actually done that, used that as a common tool in his toolkit. Um, whereas mostly people just say, alright, let's talk about this, or maybe write on a flipboard, flip chart. [00:42:38] But, um, but in the, in the new world, it really relates to the research we did with LSC this year, which says, actually managers do need in their toolkit, a more at a higher use of technology. Our use of technology cannot end at using Zoom and Windows. That's like finding, finding a way to the office is passive. Exactly. Where you need these ways to actively encourage not and and actually see collaboration. So that's a really, that was, that was a really good reminder that managers have to have in their toolkit, can I use a whiteboard? Do I have some way of doing post-it notes? Can I do polls? All of these things are really, yeah, they're, they're not passive, they're active collaboration tools. And that, that really, um, that struck home for me from what Amy said. [00:43:27] Pie: And it reminds me, and if anyone's listening to this from, from our, our LIW days was the, um, was the smelly pens. We used to have those Texters that all smelled like different fruits on the end. And I, we used to work with these really senior executives, they used to end up having bits of purple under their nose because they would cause they were smelling. It was just [00:43:52] Dan: is. [00:43:54] Pie: tickle. Like, you knows, he, oh, didn't, this is like, you know. [00:43:58] Dan: Yeah, the CEO likes blueberry and they've, he's got the end, the end of the end of his nose is a bit. The, the other one of course was the ones with the really fantastic solvents in them. That's the other ones people used to, you'd see them chatting and they'd take the little, have a little snippet. He was just Oh, lovely, lovely. I mean, not very, not not to be, not to be encouraged obviously, but [00:44:18] Pie: be encouraged, but you can't quite get that on Zoom, but you know, do something similar. [00:44:22] Dan: I like the theme. It's a sort of smelly theme today, smell of burnout and the smelly pens as well. It's, um, it's been a smelly, smelly, old day. Brilliant. All right. [00:44:31] But that, that is it for this episode. You can find show notes and resources at squadify.net. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. Also, please do give us a rating on your favorite podcast. You can contribute to the show by leaving us a voice note with a question or a comment or a suggestion for the new series coming up in the new year. [00:44:54] Just find the link in the show notes. We Not Me, is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's Goodbye from me [00:45:04] Pie: And is goodbye from me.