Warren 0:00 I just grind, that's innate in me, you know. It fueled a lot of my decisions, a lot of my actions. Sometimes I didn't even think it was just like this, what you have to do. I get a job eight to four at a factory, assembling industrial heaters and driving a forklift around, and then from six to 11 I was at an independent grocery store working the deli counter hunting meat, and I would literally work 60 to eight hour weeks and just try to save every single penny, so that I had enough money to continue my college education, and I remember I needed $10,000 and I came up short. Think I had around 60 $570,000 and I went to my dad, and I asked him, I'm like, can you spot me the rest? You give me $3,000 I go back to school, and I just remember so vividly, like as if he's right here, right now, he just gave me the biggest yelling, and just, you know, just lecture, saying money doesn't grow on trees, you know, how hard it is to save $3,000 Your brother never asked a single penny from me. How come you're so useless, you know? And after that he reluctantly wrote me that check, and I remember taking that check, and I said, "Thank you, Dad, I'm never ever going to ask you for anything ever again, and so I left, I All Steven Evans 1:48 right, so well, thank you again for joining the show, and for being willing to talk about this in a very open and honest and trustworthy way. The people who will be listening will hopefully find this beneficial, and of course, I always want to start out just by asking, you know, not by assuming, but where would you begin your story if you were to tell somebody, you know, this is sort of where Warren began. Speaker 1 2:12 That's a very great question, Steven. My story probably begins all the way back from where I grew up in Calgary, Alberta, and a son of a family of Chinese immigrants, so that really kind of defines where I came from and who I am a lot, and it was a very specific environment that I grew up in, very immigrant-oriented, a lot of sacrifice from the parents, and a lot of pressure to succeed and do well, study hard, be a good citizen to society, be productive, and really take advantage of the opportunities that were given to us. So it kind of starts from there, you know, learning how to be very independent at a very young age, really kind of focusing on studies a lot, trying to fit in that quintessential mold of aspiring to be white collar, whether it be a doctor, a lawyer, or an engineer, so Speaker 2 3:20 it's a lot of pressure, Speaker 1 3:22 it was definitely a lot of pressure, it was, you know, kind of like failure was not an option, considering what was at stake, meaning we were always minded that our parents left everything they knew to a country where they didn't even speak the language to work very blue collar, very, you know, hard jobs, just to give us a chance to have education in general, right. Speaker 2 3:49 That's awesome. And, like, when you were thinking about, you know, what you would choose to do, let's say right after you graduated from high school, you know, walk me through the day that, you know, you left home. Speaker 1 4:01 Yeah, and I think I've told this story to you before, but you know, my mom was actually a nightclub singer in Hong Kong, yeah, and she always had that musical spirit in her, which I loved, and even to this day, when she's retired, she's still singing and doing a lot of Chinese opera, but she instilled a lot of that music in us, and insisted that my brother and I took piano lessons, and I started playing piano since I was three years old, and I played all the way until I was 18, I took all the exams from the rural conservator of music, took music theory, took me as a history. I had three students of my own at the age of 16. I was competing in performances in festivals, and at first I really didn't like it, but then I grew to love it, and it was a conversation I had with my mom, and I said, hey. I'm, I'm thinking of maybe auditioning for some piano performance programs at university, and she literally sat me down and said, well, if you choose that path, don't ever come back home again. Speaker 3 5:13 Yeah, Speaker 1 5:13 and so that was kind of like, all right, time to straighten up, time to either study to become, you know, an engineer, doctor, or a lawyer, you know, so I chose the path of being an engineer, and you know, I had saved up every single penny I had up until I was 18, and you know, I basically packed up my bags and asked my dad to drop me off at the airport, and I left for Montreal, where I got accepted to McGill University. Speaker 3 5:45 Awesome, Speaker 1 5:46 yeah. And so I believe that was like the summer of 1997 Speaker 2 5:50 Yeah, and they were definitely in that example, I would say two different sides, right? You have the one sort of very dedicated enterprise, but maybe musical, artistic side, kind of, again, then you know, kind of having to take the choice of all right, what might be a practical, you know, sort of more approach to studies, or practical approach to, let's say, the world, and like, when you think about, you know, the that identity based on, you know, choosing perhaps that artistic path, kind of, how did that feel making that choice? Speaker 1 6:20 I don't really even feel like you know at the time it was even an option, you know, and it was kind of.. I didn't have the courage at that time to go out into the world and try to be a musician by any means, you know, whether it was the fear or the guilt or the pressure to succeed, it was just a given that that wasn't even an option at that point, and you know, thinking back now, it's hard, hard to kind of grasp, like you know, the fact that you know how I could give up all my creativity like that so quickly, but at the moment there I felt like it was, you just have to do what is expected of you, Speaker 2 7:05 right? And you have to step in and play your role and play your part. Speaker 1 7:09 Yeah, Speaker 3 7:10 yeah, Speaker 1 7:11 yeah. I mean, we were brought up to do that one thing, right? So, and it was, you know, definitely not to be a starving position, you know. Speaker 2 7:19 Yeah, no, I hear you. That makes two of us. It's interesting. I wanted to major in film when I first went to school, and I remember calling my dad, and a dad saying, "Think again, you know, try, try economics or something else, but it's not going to be film. So, but here I am, you know, trying to make this podcast. I would have loved to Speaker 1 7:36 have had economics as an option, because it was only when I did my MBA, that I really kind of fell in love with that aspect of, of things, and I really liked economics a lot. Yeah, Speaker 2 7:48 yeah, it's a way of thinking about things. Yeah, exactly. You know, it's not necessarily a mindset. Yeah, exactly right. How do you think about, you know, certain populations and how they interact and incentives and all those things? So, and but I think that what you're describing is really oppression and applicable to a lot of people who might be listening, right. So the choice to decide, okay, this is what I'm going to pursue. Walk me through that choice to do something instead of rather than, you know, something that you might have left behind, right, because in making that choice it has turned out in a way, you know, in your life, so right. Walk me through the choice to choose the, you know, maybe productivity, or you know what was expected. Speaker 1 8:32 I know this might be kind of, kind of strange to hear, and to try to grasp, and it's funny that we were just talking about economics, but it was kind of the force of scarcity that drove me to make my decision. It's not like we grew up poor, poor, but I knew that, you know, we were not well off, and I knew that there was no safety net, and if I wanted a life that was one expected of me, and one that I could, you know, potentially thrive and be comfortable with, it was a given that this is the only path, Speaker 3 9:16 right? Speaker 1 9:16 You know, in hindsight, now I see things a lot differently, but at that point there was one playbook, and I feel like it's the immigrant playbook, right? So you follow these rules, and and it's your pathway to middle class, you know. So you get that white collar job, you know, and you get that nice job, and those were those were the ways to do it, to be a doctor or engineer, and it was really that drive of scarcity and fear of, you know, not having, and kind of, you know, ending up in the poor house, you know, that that fear that was instilled in my heart at a very young age, it's like, you got to do this or else you're going to be become nothing, kind of thing. Yeah, it was repeated to us through my brother and I constantly, you know, Speaker 2 10:04 and I find that really inspirational, because honestly, you don't really know what you're made of sometimes until you're kind of pushed to that point where you really have to make the decision. Okay, am I going to accept this quality of life, or am I going to accept this decision, or am I going to fight? Am I going to kind of push myself to become something else, Speaker 1 10:24 yeah, Speaker 2 10:25 and I mean, when I think about the decisions, and then ultimately the course of your life, when you think about that early day, was there anything that was maybe building underneath that you weren't quite aware of as you were building out this sort of professional persona focusing on, you know, the white-collared roles, was there perhaps anything underneath that was missing? Or, Speaker 1 10:47 well, at the time, I'm.. I was young, and you know, definitely didn't experience that much life of life, and, but looking in hindsight now, I see that there was definitely a lot of repressed, like anger, and a lot of, like, you know, things that probably should have been talked about, at least, at the very least, you know, from an emotional perspective, right? But also, it was a cultural thing, right? You know, you don't, my parents never said, you know, I love you, you know, they cut you fruit, and that's their way of showing love, and it was acts of service, but it would have been really nice to kind of talk through, you know, the things that maybe I did want it to do from a from a personal perspective, and Who I was, you know, as opposed to just following that, you know, script, and just, you know, being an obedient son, Chinese son, and just doing what I had to do, you know, Speaker 3 11:46 yeah, yeah, Speaker 1 11:47 and it took a while to kind of reprogram and understand all that, and it's strange because it's also that mentality that's driven me to great success, but it also has caused a lot of kind of emotional struggle as I kind of grow older, wiser. Speaker 2 12:09 Right? I hear you. I mean, that's part of, you know, why I'm here, and that's part of why I'm looking. I'm looking and on this quest myself, and like, you know, in that time you often make, you know, choices around sort of what you'll do or who you'll be. I mean, have you had any of those, you know, choices where you've had to sort of reckon with the perhaps a decision or perhaps a way of being that it may be disturbed you in one time but didn't serve you later? Speaker 1 12:37 You know, I, I think about that sometimes in one wonder if my experiences, you know, kind of anecdotal, or you know, if there's some viral reason to, to, you know, why, and why I made certain, certain decisions, and whatnot, you know, and I keep on thinking back to, like, at the time, it was just, it was almost instinctual, you know, like this is just what you have to do if you want to live. You don't want to starve, you just have to pick up your bootstraps and start grinding. And even to this day, from my story I told you, I just grind, you know, it's innate in me, you know. And it's very, very hard for me sometimes to just calm that part down and be a little bit more insightful and reflective, and again when I need to, and during all that time it fueled a lot of my decisions, a lot of my actions, and I sometimes I didn't even think it was just like this, what you have to do, you keep your head down and just grinding, get it done, and you keep on chasing the coin, and you just keep on grinding, you know, but I think that that only gets you so far, Speaker 2 13:44 right? And I mean, when, especially in the transition from, you know, like early in career, or let's say early graduate to maybe mid-career, right? That transition time, and like, as we were discussing, sort of that transition from a high school to, let's, you know, pursue professional or maybe more professional career at McGill. Can you walk me through that crossing, you know, kind of from when you were in McGill to sort of maybe your first role or that motivation, and how perhaps you evolved through that? Speaker 1 14:14 Yeah, yeah, so I would say that the biggest pivotal point was after my freshman year, that's the story of where I run out of money, go back to Calgary, and I get a job eight to four at a factory assembling industrial heaters and driving a forklift around spot welding, you know, and then from six to 11, I was at an independent grocery store, working the deli counter, cutting meat. Yeah, and I would literally work 60 to eight hour weeks, and just trying to save every single penny, so that I had enough money to continue my college education for my sophomore year. There, and I remember I needed $10,000 and I came up short, and I think I had around 60 $570,000 and I went to my dad, and I asked him, I'm like, can you spot me the rest? You give me $3,000 I go back to school, and I just remember so vividly, like as if he's right here, right now. He just gave me the biggest yelling, and just, you know, just lecture, saying money doesn't grow on trees. You know how hard it is to say $3,000 Your brother never asked a single penny from me. How come you're so useless, you know? And after that, he reluctantly wrote me that check, and I remember taking that check, and I said, "Thank you, Dad, I'm never ever going to ask you for anything ever again. No. And so I left, and I remember going through my sophomore year. It was a good year, but at the end of it, I was like, I need, I need a really good job, you know? I can't be being a factory worker and a grocer, a deli counter worker wasn't gonna cut it, you know? I needed like some kind of engineering intern job, you know, that paid well, and so I remember I got the directory of all the oil and gas companies in Alberta from a family friend, and I wrote to every single one and asked them if they were, they were hiring for, you know, engineering jobs, and I must have sent out like over 200 you know, letters, yeah, and I think by the end of the month I got maybe like 50 letters back, and they were all rejection letters, yeah, and I kept, I kept the stack of them, you know, and and I called them my, my phones, the FOA DS, you know, Speaker 3 17:01 yeah, Speaker 1 17:02 the fuck off in die letters, you know, yeah. Speaker 2 17:03 Honestly, yeah, I'm telling you, yeah, I know how, and Speaker 1 17:10 I just wanted to see the stack, just to remind me, drive me, you know. And I remember one day I was just so discouraged, and I went into class, and one of my buddies is like, dude, are you okay? I'm like, no, man. I showed him the stack, and he's like, oh, do you need a job, you know, for the summer? I'm like, yeah. He's like, well, you know, my uncle, he works at Nortel Networks, and he hires, you know, summer interns all the time. Do you want me to give him a call and see he'll hire you like that would be really great, and literally that night I get a call from his uncle, and he gives me an interview on the spot, and he's like, "So, do you want the job? I'm like, "Yeah. I'm like, "How much does it pay? And he's like, "It pays $18 an hour. I'm like, at that point that was like gold. I was getting paid four or $5 an hour at like the warehouse, and like another $6 at the deli counter. I'm like, this was like huge, Speaker 3 18:11 huge. Speaker 1 18:12 So I'm like, yeah, absolutely. Through the job I was in Ottawa, and the first thing that they did was they set me on this training course to learn this CAD program called Pro E, and it's what, like, you know, aircraft aerospace engineers use to, like, model airplanes and stuff like that. It was one of the most advanced things back in 1998 99 you know. And it cost $10,000 just to learn that course, and they spent it on me, and I learned it, you know, and I was modeling all summer, it was the great, greatest job, and, like, you know, I got me enough money to go into my junior year, and it was just a great experience, just to have that underneath my belt, but so, you know, junior year ends and costs went up, and I yet again ran out of money, and, but this time it was like, you know, during the middle of the second semester, and I almost picked up the phone, but to call my parents, but I'm like, I cannot, there's no way, Speaker 3 19:16 yeah, there's just Speaker 1 19:18 zero chance, I'd rather drop out of school, work, as you know, as a dishwasher somewhere in Montreal, and figure it out on my own, then, then to, you know, swallow my pride, and like, call, you know, so, and that's when I went to financial aid, and there's this one lady, you know, was looking through my history, and I just remember she had this panic in her face, like figuring out how to, like, help me, because she didn't want me to drop out and be another statistic, you know, and she managed to find some grants for me, and everything, you know, and I managed to finish the semester, and I needed another job, and that's when I applied for this medical device startup company in. Montreal, and their only requirement was you needed to know how to use Pro Evan, and so I go, I was like, I know Pro E, right, and they literally put me in a computer and they put an object and they said draw this, I draw. Dr. you know, did five minutes later, I draw it, and the lead engineer comes over. It's like, "Are you done? I'm like, "Yep, I'm done. And the next day they gave me a call, like, "Want the job? I'm like, "Yeah. And I asked, you know, by the way, how many people were able to draw that? And they said, "Well, we had like 100 applicants, and you were the only one that knew how to draw it. Speaker 2 20:43 Nice Speaker 1 20:44 people said that they knew how to use it, but when they were in front of the computer, they couldn't do Speaker 2 20:49 it. Oh my god, Speaker 1 20:50 and it was just one of those software programs that was not intuitive. It's not like you can teach yourself how to do it on the spot. You really had to be trained, you know. And I was trained, and I was able to do it, and so I worked in that company, and they liked me so much that I worked part-time into my senior year, and right after I graduated, they offered me the job. Speaker 2 21:13 Yeah, there's so much that I definitely want to, like, unpack in that, from the conversation initially with your father to the motivation and you know the drive required to make it through those periods of not having any money, right, and wondering what would come next, you know, and also the jobs that you ultimately decided to take to make ends meet, right, those are jobs that people, some people would not take them, some people would say I can't do it, you know, or I don't even know where to begin, and you know, kind of fall into some hopelessness, or maybe a little bit of Speaker 1 21:46 despair, yeah, yeah, I could, I could see that again, for better, for worse, the way that I was brought up was like, you do not shy away from the work, since I was 12 years old, my dad would wake me up in my summers on the weekends early to go to the restaurant to, you know, wash all the pots and pans, to mop the floors, to start peeling onions and carrots and everything, and, and just work, you know, Speaker 2 22:16 yeah, and not be afraid of what it means, you know, Speaker 1 22:20 yeah, and just, Speaker 2 22:21 yeah, rolling up your sleeves and doing whatever's just Speaker 1 22:23 doing it, just doing it. And if there's one thing that I know how to do is to just grind and work, and that's been kind of instilled in me since a very young age. It was never beneath me to have to, you know, slice meat or drive a forklift or spot weld, and also probably why I got into trouble this week trying to move a palace stacker myself, but you know I know that again this might be anecdotal because it's just how I was brought up and unique case, and but one thing that has been a reoccurring theme in my life, as I look back, that I feel applies to everyone, is closed moms don't get fed, right? So you ask for help when you need, you know, like if it wasn't for my friend who helped me out, I could have written 500 letters, right? Yeah, and the result would have been the same, and you know, just having a good friend make a phone call and vouch for me made all the difference, Speaker 2 23:25 right? And I, but it also, I feel like, comes down to that sort of mantra where, like, luck is sort of hard work, meeting preparation and the right timing, you know? Where sure you know you have to position yourself. Speaker 1 23:38 No, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, people can make the introductions all day long, but if you don't have the kung fu to back it up, Speaker 3 23:46 right, that Speaker 1 23:47 doesn't matter, right? Speaker 2 23:48 Right, yeah, right, yeah. And it was just the way that the stories, you know, the connection between what you need to learn in that first year and then ultimately what they would exam you or test you on, right, for that first job. That's really awesome, Speaker 1 24:01 specific, yeah, program, yeah. I can't make it up right. So, Speaker 2 24:06 when you're in that season and you're reflecting, sort of back on, you know, the earlier days of when you went to college, what were some of the things that you are proud of, or maybe see us changed? Speaker 1 24:18 Obviously, the mechanical engineering degree was a hard one, you know, a lot of events, calculus, differential equations, mathematics, thermodynamics, physics. If you open up a textbook, it's crazy that I actually did that, you know, learned all of that, right? That's one thing, but to be honest, above all, though, the thing that I value the most and take to heart the most, looking back, are still the relationships, all the different people that I met, that I learned from, that opened my eyes, that were there to be able to teach me. Something to listen to me, to you know, just share in camaraderie, and it's where really kind of I understood the human condition a lot more, and put me on a path of really looking for connections that would, you know, help each other, I could help other people, and they could help me, and to really increase the quality of my life in general, you know? Speaker 3 25:27 Right. Speaker 1 25:28 Yeah, I mean, the knowledge of what part is one thing, and learning the discipline to go through that, and that's definitely an accomplishment. Don't get me wrong, and I'm very proud of that, but I would never give any anything out for the relationships that I built in college, for sure. Speaker 2 25:44 Yeah, yeah, and I mean it sounds like they helped propel you, but also maybe give you a sense of community meaning, you know, kind of that that anchor as well. Speaker 1 25:55 And also, yeah, that for sure, Steven, like, you know, it's human nature to want to belong to some kind of tribe, and I definitely found a tribe there, for sure. But it also gave me an opportunity and an environment where I could discover who I really was, and it wasn't just, you know, this guy that was going to be an engineer, or whatever, you know, like. And I did actually continue a lot of my musical hobbies and whatnot in college and meeting the breadth of people was very amazing. It was just, I can't say enough about that. Speaker 2 26:30 Yeah, yeah, and the identity as you sort of emerge from McGill, like seems to have propelled you then forward to a number of different career options or opportunities, but when it comes to next stage being family and marriage, right? You know, and that's I feel like another crucible that sort of we all kind of go through if we get the opportunity, and you know, curious around what happened to your sense of self when all of that new responsibility arrived, the marriage, the children, you know, what did it do to the identity you'd been carefully constructing up to that point? Speaker 1 27:05 Yeah, that's a good question. So, you know, after college I was really kind of focused on being a young professional, and I had very specific goals in terms of I did have some student debts, you know, at that point, and I wanted to clear up my debt, and I wanted to have a certain number of savings, and I would jump from job to job to get me to that goal. On that, was driven by that, you know, and I remember I was working in Manhattan when I finally met that goal, you know, and my good friend, roommate at that time, and also my, you know, business partner, and basically my, my brother, kind of, you know, he asked me, so what, where to next, you know, like he knew my goal and everything, I'm like, I don't know, you know, we should go out and celebrate, you know, and as much young people at the company, and we would all do it sometimes, and, and that, that one time is when you know I ended up, you know, being friendly with Barbara, of Speaker 2 28:10 course, Speaker 1 28:11 you know, and so it kind of put all my plans on hold when I started dating Barbara, you know, and even when Barbara and I got serious, we moved in together, we would travel and everything, and then we finally got married. It was definitely different, right? So it was just looking out for myself and trying to excel at my career. We were, you know, a family now. We were married, and we were trying to build life together, so that definitely changed the narrative a lot in terms of my thought process, and you know how I wanted to leave my life, just based on how I grew up and everything very risk averse, and you know wanted to make sure that all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed before we bought a place or had a kid, and you know, trying to kind of follow that script and everything, and it was definitely a lot, you know, and I just, I think back to that old pre-war dingy apartment that Barbara and I lived in, in Queens, with like burnt carpet and cockroaches in the basement, where the laundry was. Oh Speaker 2 29:24 my gosh, we all.. oh my gosh, the cockroaches can't even think about, Speaker 1 29:32 and we both had, like, you know, zero net worth. I'm at that point, she had, like, been like, of her job, and she was going back to school during her master's in education, and I was still working in the city, and trying to, you know, really pine for that promotion in corporate America, working for a Fortune 500 company, and you know, just kind of grinding it out, and that's when I realized, like, you know, that I wasn't really cut out for Corporate America, you know, I. Wasn't political enough, you know. Speaker 2 30:01 I hear you. Yep, I know. Speaker 1 30:04 You know, they loved me because I was the perfect cog, and I would, you know, really get stuff done, but I just didn't know how to play that political card, and you know, get the promotions that I wanted, you know. Speaker 3 30:16 Yeah, Speaker 1 30:16 and so that's when, you know, I pivoted and started working for smaller companies, where my work would speak louder and I get lost, yeah, and be worth a little bit more, and that's also when, you know, we bought a condo in Hoboken, and and that's when we had Dylan, you know, Speaker 3 30:38 yeah, Speaker 1 30:38 and so that, that was that was big. That's huge. You know, when you become a father, it changes everything. You know, and your focus is literally, you know, on the kids. You know, what was crazy about it was that before we even had Dylan, is, and I think I've told you this as well, is that that's around the time that my dad passed away from lung cancer, you know, and it was a really hard time, and you know, I was working in the city, and I was trying to fly back to Calgary to take him to all his doctor appointments, and he was already diagnosed with, like, stage four lung cancer, you know, for it was a matter of months, you know, and I refused to kind of give up, and I wanted him to get all the treatment, everything, but I could tell that my dad was ready, and you know, we'd have a lot of somber talks and everything, and I remember saying to him that I kind of regret leaving when I was 18, because I think that he really wanted me to stay after kind of the bad relationship that he had with my older brother, he thought that, you know, I could stay in Calgary, you know, and he could kind of make it up with his younger son, you know, but it was kind of too little, too late, and you know, I had to leave and make my own way, and I told him that, you know, I regret leaving, because I feel like if I'd stayed, I would have made him quit smoking, like my cousins did to his older brother, who's still alive and well today, you know, and I remember him saying, you know, you shouldn't say such things, you know, shouldn he regrets like that. He's like, I don't really have any regrets in my life. There's a lot of friends that made a lot more money than me, but you know, the two best things in my life was definitely you and your brother, and the only regrets I only have two regrets, is that why not never get a chance to meet your children, and two is that you said that you were going to go back to school, but you never did, and he said he's like, I never went to school, your mom never went to school, your brother, he's a professor, and you know education is one of those things that nobody can ever take from you when you have it, and you know, I really wanted you to go back and do your MBA, like you said you would, and then he dies, you know. Yes, wow. And so that was tough, and that weighed on me very heavily, and I felt like I had to just take my GMATs and apply to some schools, and I didn't think I would get it. I had a really bad GPA, so I felt like I just, as a morning process, to just go through the motions, you know. Speaker 3 33:32 Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 1 33:34 And so I said, for the GMAT, got some letters of recommendations, and applied to a few schools, and then, you know, I just left the universe, and then I felt like I did my duty, and it gave me some peace, and I remember at the end of that summer that no replies, and I felt like, okay, I can move on, flip the page, you know, and that's when, you know, I was at work, and Barbara was like, oh, you got a letter from Pace University, and I'm like, open it, and she opens it, and she's like, you got accepted to their MBA program. Nice, excellent. And I said, really, are you sure? He's like, the semester starts next month. He's like, yeah, yeah, you definitely got accepted. And then she's like, well, you have to go. I'm like, are you sure, babe? It's like, yeah, you definitely have to go. I'm like, it's gonna cost, you know, 80 to $100,000 and money that we don't have. Like, we'll have to take out loans, and she's like, well, we'll figure it out. I'm like, well, I can't. I have to still like go to work. I have to do it in nights and evenings and weekends, and she's like, do what you have to do, and I said, are you sure? She's like, I'm absolutely sure, like, but you're also pregnant right now. Speaker 3 34:48 Yes, Speaker 1 34:48 you know, and she's like, we'll figure it out. And so that's when I went to do my MBA, and she had Dylan, and she basically read. Used him by herself for the first, you know, year and a half of his life, while I was working and going to school, and, you know, do my projects on the weekends and everything, you know, and just grinding it out until, you know, I graduated, Speaker 3 35:17 right? Speaker 1 35:18 Yeah, yeah, Speaker 2 35:19 wow, and there's from there, you know, the story from your with your dad is really impactful. Thank you for sharing, like, you know, the journey from son to adult, right? And then to seeing a parent pass away is a really tough journey, and having that final conversation, in some ways, I'm sure, feels like a double-edged sword, maybe a blessing, but also something that made it a little more hard to say goodbye. You know, I have had a parent pass away, and I know that those last conversations are really hard, but they leave a lasting impression, you know, and having him sort of speak to him that way at the end of his life to give you that guidance, that that direction probably was really, really powerful in terms of motivator, and then in terms of the support that you received as well from Barbara. Right, yeah, I feel like that is another thing that without that support, what then comes next in the story? You know, Speaker 3 36:20 yeah, absolutely, I mean, definitely, those last words were, were everything. They were kind of the Speaker 1 36:30 driving force to make me into the entrepreneur I am today, and I mean, yeah, stuff like that will stay with you forever, right? Not only stay with you forever, but like, like you say, double-edged sword is sad, but it's also like strength, and it's hope, and it's inspiration, it's all of that, right? Speaker 3 36:53 Yeah, Speaker 1 36:56 because you know, in a way, he was also an entrepreneur, in a smaller way, and I remember asking him, like, would you want me to take over the restaurant? He's like, absolutely not over my dead body, right? You're not going to do this, you know. I don't want this for you, but in a way, like, you know, he was an entrepreneur, and he made it happen, his small business, you know, Speaker 3 37:16 right? Speaker 1 37:17 And it's just super sad that he can't see. Speaker 2 37:23 Yeah, I find that for myself, even when I certain events will bring it up, you know, whether it's, you know, Caden making a basketball shot or Aaron saying something funny or doing something cute in the backyard, right? Those photos, those things that you don't get to share, right? Those moments that you know that they would love to have seen, right, Speaker 1 37:42 right, Speaker 2 37:43 but you know they're, they're not there, yeah, Speaker 1 37:45 yeah, yeah, super sad, yeah. And then you know the second part, like support wise, like that's why I always refer to Barbara as my ride or die, right? Speaker 3 37:57 Yeah, Speaker 1 37:57 so she was definitely there the whole way, and I couldn't have asked for a better partner in life, and that's oh, so important, you know, Speaker 3 38:07 yeah, Speaker 1 38:07 and everything that you know we've built over the years, and without her it would be so meaningless, you know, Speaker 2 38:15 yeah, absolutely, man, absolutely, and like during those early years when you know Dylan was under one or two, right? What are some of the things that you're using to sort of keep yourself together? How do you focus on a new baby MBA at working, right? Speaker 1 38:32 Yeah, it was definitely a lot, and again I just, you know, type that into my DNA of like it's the one thing I know how to do, yeah, ride it out right, and that was no different, for sure. That's one thing I know how to do was just, you know, do all the readings, do all the math, all the business models, do all that homework, make sure I answer all my emails, and then, like, squeeze in whatever time I have with, you know, my son, you know, right, it's definitely.. it's kind of a blur, to be honest. You know, I'm not really sure how I did it, and I'm not gonna say it was easy, but it's kind of going through the motions and just trying to buckle down and get it done. It definitely took its toll, for sure. Yeah, Speaker 2 39:17 was there anything that, like, blindsided you, perhaps that maybe was something you didn't expect, but then you were forced to kind of reckon with it, and you had to use your skills to overcome it. Speaker 1 39:31 Yeah, so the biggest blind side was when Dylan was two or three, and before Olivia was born, when my brother and Barbara's sister kind of had a somewhat of an intervention and showed up at our house, and it was really just Barbara's sister, because you know she was kind of the messenger and. Wanted to really say something that they were concerned about, and it was with regards to Dylan. Yeah, and they said that, you know, we think that, you know, Dylan should get evaluated, you know. And Barbara, like, you know, broke down crying. It's like, there's nothing wrong with my son, you know. Speaker 3 40:20 Yeah, Speaker 1 40:21 and he's like, "No, no, he's beautiful and everything, but he should just, you know, she's gonna check that, just to be sure, you know, Speaker 3 40:27 correct, Speaker 1 40:28 and and so that's when we went to see a child development physician, pediatrician, and, and that's when, you know, we found out that Dylan was diagnosed with autism, you know, with lots of Aspergers, so that was, you know, completely unexpected, and I had no idea what to do. Barbara had no idea what Speaker 3 40:49 to do, Speaker 1 40:50 and at that point Barb was pregnant with Olivia, you know, so that was definitely something completely blindsided, and we're just like, what do we do now, you know, but Barbara and I, you know, we just kind of took it head on, and you know, we tried to educate ourselves as much as possible, and just try to get all the help that, you know, he needed, and we took it by stride, you know, and we did it together, and we just took it one day at a time, Speaker 2 41:22 right? Yeah, and in that time were, I guess, were there any lessons that you took away from having to go through that scenario? I mean, what was it that helped you rise? Speaker 1 41:34 Nobody prepares you to be a father of a, you know, autistic child, right? So Speaker 2 41:39 it's hard, Speaker 1 41:40 yeah, very hard, and this is a very trying time for me, and I think that's when I realized that I really had to try to fix myself first to be able to be the best father I could for this situation. Speaker 3 41:54 Yeah, Speaker 1 41:55 you know, Speaker 2 41:55 I found that Speaker 1 41:57 I had to be better, and I was just like, and I don't know how to be better, because, like, I don't have the guidebook to best, you know, and you know, I don't know what to do, but I do know that I need to be better, and I had to be more patient, and I need to not explode, and I need to figure out what triggers me, so I can be a calm and patient father for my child, Speaker 3 42:25 yeah. Speaker 1 42:25 Because I know at that point I definitely wasn't. I was very current, and I was like, you know, snappy, and it served me very well in my career to get things done and to manage people, but like it's different when it's your child, right? Speaker 2 42:38 Oh, yeah. So absolutely, but I want to commend you on the courage, right, that it takes to do that inner work, you know, and really look in the mirror and understand that's where it starts. Speaker 1 42:51 Yeah, I don't know if it was like the engineer in me that I need to solve this solution, like, and you know what do I need to do, and like it was just trying to break things down, and I kept on running it through my head, the scenario, and it always came back to me. I'm like, I need to be better, you know, like, like, how do I do this? Well, I can't do if I'm like, you know, on edge, or I'm, you know, acting out like this, you know. So it always comes back to that. I'm like, but what do I need to do to be the rock that calm force for the entire family. Speaker 3 43:26 Yeah, Speaker 1 43:26 and that's when I think I started, you know, going to see a therapist, and like figuring stuff out, you know. Speaker 3 43:33 Yeah, Speaker 1 43:34 so Speaker 2 43:34 that's excellent. And I was going to ask, as a follow up, just, what are the practices that you found, maybe one or two that have been really helpful. Speaker 1 43:43 Yeah, that's.. and I remember I talked to my therapist a lot about this, you know, and obviously I have these crazy stories of my upbringing, and you know, I don't want to sound cliche that, you know, it was like childhood drama or whatnot, and maybe it is.. I don't want.. I don't want to belittle that by any means, but I think for me what really worked is to really kind of look at the things that get me worked up, the things that I can't let go, and to really ask myself and remind myself that everything in life is a choice, you know, whether it's the job or relationship or family members or things you do, you get to choose, and if you say this relationship or this family vendor, just really, you know, you feel it's really in just, and they should change, like that's not going to happen. Okay, first thing is, you have to accept that, that's not going to happen, but you can choose to either, you know, continue being in this relationship and accept that they're just going to be, you know, crappy to you, or you can choose not to have a relationship, you know, you just have to make that choice, and I feel like that applies to the job to. Where you live, what you do, it's a choice, right? And you have to remind yourself, you have to choose, and if you don't like it, you know you can choose to leave, but if you choose to continue doing it, you also have to choose to, that you have to choose to accept the downsides, you know, Speaker 2 45:15 right? Right, you know, that's like acceptance, commitment 101 that's this. Oh my gosh, yes, yeah, but I found, like, it feels like it gives you a sense of peace and calm and center, you know, Speaker 1 45:31 it does. I feel, and like, when you know, like, this is a choice, you know, like, and for me, I'm a very rational, logical guy, and when I break it down that way. I'm like, yeah, this is a choice. You can weigh the pros and cons of both choices, and you make the choice, you know, as opposed to, like, you know, wasting all your energy trying to change the situation or complain about the injustice, or like this and that. I'm not saying that those feelings are not real, but you choose to be in it, so you know, complaining, I don't think you know, like you can choose to leave, you know, yeah, Speaker 2 46:06 yeah, and I think that's always something that feels, it can feel in times out of our control, like it's not something we chose, or you know, that it's right, I don't see that 100% or and even if it's, for example, I don't know, you know, a relationship that we're in, right, or behavior that we are, we have, right, that you know something that feels sort of out of our control, but it's something we return to every, every day because it feels familiar, or something, Speaker 1 46:35 sure, Speaker 2 46:36 you know, but to make that active choice to then say this is not healthy for me, Speaker 1 46:41 right, and kind of, you know, along the same line of thought for that is that, you know, make these making these decisions is an active thing, and everything takes work, you know, your mental health takes work, your physical health takes work, your career takes work, your relationships with family, your kids, your spouse, it takes work, and you have to be mindful of that, and that it's when I feel that when we become complacent, the things, and you start expecting things without the work, that's when you get in trouble, Speaker 3 47:21 big time, Speaker 1 47:22 big time trouble. You're like, well, you said you would love me forever, but yeah, I'm like, but am I doing the work work now? You know, just because they said that, you know, people change dynamics, change everything. You have to put it in the work. It's like a muscle, everything takes work, and it's very important to remember that, like, yeah, everybody knows that you have to work for money, but a lot of people forsake whether their own health, and not just their physical health, but their mental health, Speaker 3 47:48 right? Speaker 1 47:48 You know, it takes work, it takes time, you know, Speaker 2 47:51 and it's often the hardest thing to do, because you're not always able to see clearly some of the things that might be blocking you. Yeah, it's always something that I always relied heavily on my therapist, just to understand, you know, how I reacted this way, you know, yesterday. Like, explain this to me, like, why am I doing this? It's totally not what I or how I wanted to respond to situation, whether that's with Caden or with Aaron. I, you know, my three year old is choosing his own way again and not listening. Well, surprise, he's three, you know, but here I am, frustrated, and you know, angry, and I, that's not the way I want to respond, Speaker 3 48:26 right? You know, Speaker 2 48:26 so well. Thank you for sharing. I mean, the only other question I have for this is, looking back across this full arc that we've kind of discussed, and it's not the version that you've designed, but it's the one that you actually lived. What's the thing that turned out to matter the most, not a lesson or advice, but just what your own life showed you that you couldn't have seen from the beginning. Speaker 1 48:48 I think that I'm going to go back to, you know, what I said about in my college experience, and how it opened my eyes to how important relationships are, right? And that's evolved over time as I became a young professional, became a husband and a father, and now you know business owner and employer of many people, you know, these relationships and having that connection is what has meant the most to me, for sure. It's funny because Barbara's been helping me with this new venture, and she's been doing some of the books, and doing some of the order replacing, and this and that, and she was able to meet virtually via email, whatnot, some of my team members in China, who's who has been with me for a long time, and they're like family as well, and specifically the general manager, Nancy, she's a superstar, and Barbara would hear her name here and there, but you know that was just Nancy, but now she got to experience firsthand what Nancy's all about and. So Barbara was making this payment to this one factory, and she made a mistake, and she wired a lot of money to the factory. It was raw, and she was freaking out. She was calling the bank, but once it's gone, it's gone. And then, so she's like, "I'm gonna reach out to Nancy, and so she starts corresponding with Nancy, and Nancy's just like, "Don't worry, Barbara, I got you, let me call the factory, and this and that, and not only did she help her, but she told Barbara, "It's like, you know, you know, we, we all make mistakes, that's how we move forward, and you know, and really consoled her, and was a gem, like, it's usually amazing, you know, yeah. And then I just remember Barb was like, she didn't, she hadn't told me about the boo boo yet, you know. And so she starts asking more about Nancy, and I told her about it, and she just says she's, uh, she's really good, and I'm like, yeah, she is really good. Why are you saying that she fesses up, you know, but she got to see Nancy, who is, you know, followed me for the last 10 years, and I fly back and forth to China, but she's like my little sister, you know, and she's like, I cannot imagine me being the entrepreneur I am without her, you know, and without a lot of people that have been loyal and supportive of me, whether it's, you know, my, my wife, and these people that have believed in me, and my employees, or other colleagues, and some of my clients that have all this faith in me, and like that has been everything, you know, and also a lot of the new relationships that I've built in the neighborhood, you know, like yourself and Melanie, and you know my bad basketball buddies that I can lean on and provide me with moderate and, and then whatnot, you know, all that means you know a lot more than the amount of money that, Speaker 2 51:57 yeah, yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you for being here, and thank you for telling us your story. Yeah, and the truth. So, thank you. This has been the missing conversation. I'm Steve Evans. Thanks for listening. If something in there found you, if a moment hit somewhere you weren't expecting, just let it be there for a while. You don't have to sort it out right now. That's what this is for. Take care of yourself out there, and if you know a guy who needs to hear this one, you probably already know who he is. Send it to him, you.