WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:01.170 --> 00:00:05.460 Welcome to The Chemical Show, the podcast where Chemical means business. 00:00:05.910 --> 00:00:09.690 I'm your host, Victoria Meyer, bringing you stories and insights 00:00:09.690 --> 00:00:13.590 from leaders driving innovation and growth across the chemical industry. 00:00:14.550 --> 00:00:18.840 Each week we explore key trends, real world challenges, and the 00:00:18.840 --> 00:00:20.670 strategies that make an impact. 00:00:20.880 --> 00:00:21.720 Let's get started. 00:00:23.774 --> 00:00:27.434 Victoria Meyer: Welcome back to The Chemical Show Where Leaders Talk Business. 00:00:27.584 --> 00:00:31.484 Today I am speaking with James Hogan, who is a partner at Simon 00:00:31.484 --> 00:00:35.174 Kutcher and who is an expert on pricing and customer behavior. 00:00:35.564 --> 00:00:39.314 James, I wanna let you know, is going to be one of our featured 00:00:39.314 --> 00:00:43.064 panelists at the Chemical Summit, which is held on September 30th 00:00:43.064 --> 00:00:45.314 and October 1st in Houston, Texas. 00:00:45.314 --> 00:00:46.724 If you don't have your ticket yet. 00:00:47.014 --> 00:00:48.304 You better hurry up and go get one. 00:00:48.384 --> 00:00:50.094 Visit the chemical summit.com 00:00:50.334 --> 00:00:50.784 for that. 00:00:50.784 --> 00:00:55.104 But James is gonna be part of a panel, um, and bringing his wisdom and insight 00:00:55.104 --> 00:00:59.424 from working with companies across the chemical industry and industrial companies 00:00:59.844 --> 00:01:02.514 around pricing and customer behaviors. 00:01:02.634 --> 00:01:04.524 And that's what we're talking about here today. 00:01:04.524 --> 00:01:07.044 So James, welcome to the Chemical Show. 00:01:07.704 --> 00:01:08.634 James Hogan: It is a pleasure to be here. 00:01:08.634 --> 00:01:10.974 I'm looking forward to being on the panel at the, uh, at the 00:01:10.974 --> 00:01:12.219 beginning of, uh, the month as well. 00:01:13.114 --> 00:01:13.744 Victoria Meyer: Absolutely. 00:01:13.924 --> 00:01:16.384 So tell us a little bit about yourself. 00:01:16.384 --> 00:01:20.284 What's your origin story and how did you get interested in this space? 00:01:20.919 --> 00:01:23.949 James Hogan: Absolutely, I would call it circuitous. 00:01:24.039 --> 00:01:26.919 Uh, in, in both, in, in a couple of different ways. 00:01:27.359 --> 00:01:30.149 So we moved back and forth across the country. 00:01:30.149 --> 00:01:30.844 I grew up in Rhode Island. 00:01:31.574 --> 00:01:35.324 I got an undergraduate degree at the University of Notre Dame, a PhD 00:01:35.324 --> 00:01:39.314 in chemistry at the University of Southern California, and then worked 00:01:39.314 --> 00:01:42.824 as a chemist, uh, as a bench chemist in, in southern California doing some 00:01:42.824 --> 00:01:44.864 biotech, pharma and other related work. 00:01:45.254 --> 00:01:49.244 After that, um, decided that I wanted to be in the business side of 00:01:49.244 --> 00:01:53.804 chemicals, uh, maybe not necessarily at the bench my entire life. 00:01:53.864 --> 00:01:55.934 Decided to go back and get an MBA at the University of 00:01:55.934 --> 00:01:57.194 North Carolina in Chapel Hill. 00:01:57.584 --> 00:02:02.454 Did my, internship there while at Bristol Myers Squibb, and then decided 00:02:02.454 --> 00:02:06.084 to go into consulting to kind of broaden out even a little bit further, 00:02:06.184 --> 00:02:08.014 since I joined Simon Kutcher in 2016. 00:02:08.954 --> 00:02:13.034 Have focused really in building out our chemicals practice and supporting 00:02:13.034 --> 00:02:16.754 our chemicals customers so circuitous in both back and forth across the 00:02:16.754 --> 00:02:18.644 country now located in Atlanta, Georgia. 00:02:18.984 --> 00:02:22.854 But also, you know, circuitous in that, uh, you know, a couple, couple 00:02:22.854 --> 00:02:26.304 different routes in a trajectories of my career and, and now helping build 00:02:26.304 --> 00:02:27.524 the chemicals practice in the US. 00:02:27.934 --> 00:02:28.624 Victoria Meyer: I think that's cool. 00:02:28.624 --> 00:02:32.554 And I think what's interesting with this, James, is there is a lot of business 00:02:32.554 --> 00:02:36.574 leaders that have a technical background that, you know, spent some period 00:02:36.574 --> 00:02:41.944 of time as a chemist, as an engineer doing something really technically 00:02:41.944 --> 00:02:46.294 oriented, but also recognizing that they wanted to do more in the business. 00:02:46.344 --> 00:02:49.404 And I think this aspect of having that science and engineering 00:02:49.404 --> 00:02:53.124 background actually gives you really good grounding in what's ultimately 00:02:53.124 --> 00:02:54.504 a really technical industry. 00:02:55.244 --> 00:02:55.544 James Hogan: It is. 00:02:55.544 --> 00:03:00.104 And I think that one of the bonuses, and I say this about my PhD program, is 00:03:00.344 --> 00:03:02.144 it's, it's a degree in problem solving. 00:03:02.234 --> 00:03:04.754 And that's the same thing that we do in consulting. 00:03:04.754 --> 00:03:08.174 We are hired in projects to go and solve very difficult 00:03:08.174 --> 00:03:09.524 problems for our, for our clients. 00:03:09.774 --> 00:03:12.354 So having that technical background, we have 00:03:12.744 --> 00:03:15.444 people from all walks of life, you know, within our firm and, 00:03:15.504 --> 00:03:16.764 you know, across consultancies. 00:03:17.014 --> 00:03:21.904 The desire to solve problems, the ability to structure and break down 00:03:21.904 --> 00:03:24.994 a problem and figure out what's best for our clients and for their 00:03:24.994 --> 00:03:26.439 customers is, is what we do every day. 00:03:27.104 --> 00:03:27.614 Victoria Meyer: That's awesome. 00:03:27.614 --> 00:03:28.004 I love it. 00:03:28.094 --> 00:03:30.254 So tell us just a little bit about Simon Kutcher. 00:03:31.114 --> 00:03:31.384 James Hogan: Sure. 00:03:31.384 --> 00:03:36.004 We are a, a global consultancy, founded in bond Germany in 1985. 00:03:36.034 --> 00:03:39.604 Um, at that point it was a pricing consultancy. 00:03:39.884 --> 00:03:44.594 We have since grown, our second office globally was 1995 in Boston. 00:03:44.654 --> 00:03:48.854 Um, as we broke into the US now we have over 40 offices in 30 00:03:48.854 --> 00:03:52.874 countries around the world, we are focused entirely on top line. 00:03:52.874 --> 00:03:54.974 We say we are on the sunny side of consulting. 00:03:54.974 --> 00:03:59.294 We want to help co help companies grow and unlock better growth. 00:03:59.324 --> 00:04:02.864 And you know, one of the words you might hear me talk about is sustainable growth 00:04:02.864 --> 00:04:04.544 as well, something for the long term. 00:04:04.854 --> 00:04:07.404 Our background historically was in pricing. 00:04:07.404 --> 00:04:11.794 We very quickly moved into sales, marketing strategy, digital enablement. 00:04:12.124 --> 00:04:15.034 Um, we are everything top line and we want to help all that. 00:04:15.094 --> 00:04:16.384 Uh, we help our customers with all that. 00:04:16.904 --> 00:04:17.444 Victoria Meyer: I love that. 00:04:17.444 --> 00:04:20.834 And in fact, his, um, especially in the current market environment, people 00:04:20.834 --> 00:04:24.284 probably run away when they see, uh, consultants sometimes thinking it's 00:04:24.284 --> 00:04:28.064 gonna be slash and burn, but staying on the sunny side is a good thing. 00:04:28.354 --> 00:04:28.924 James Hogan: Absolutely. 00:04:29.144 --> 00:04:29.474 Victoria Meyer: Yeah. 00:04:29.594 --> 00:04:32.834 So let's talk about the current landscape, right? 00:04:32.834 --> 00:04:39.254 So 2025, heading into 2026, yet another year we're maybe we're not 00:04:39.254 --> 00:04:43.394 super happy with where the chemical industry is, but what do you and your 00:04:43.394 --> 00:04:46.604 clients see as some of the biggest challenges facing chemicals today? 00:04:47.374 --> 00:04:50.254 James Hogan: Ever changing, uh, the current problem today or the 00:04:50.254 --> 00:04:53.134 current challenge today wasn't the challenge yesterday and it might 00:04:53.134 --> 00:04:54.364 not be the challenge tomorrow. 00:04:54.424 --> 00:04:57.694 Um, so we are trying to stay on our toes in everything that 00:04:57.694 --> 00:04:58.804 we do and stay out in front. 00:04:59.134 --> 00:05:02.644 I think that, you know, a couple of things that jump to mind for me are. 00:05:03.149 --> 00:05:05.669 The, the regional differences in these industries? 00:05:05.699 --> 00:05:10.139 Just understanding that the US and the America is very different from Europe, 00:05:10.139 --> 00:05:11.969 very different from Asia Pacific. 00:05:12.189 --> 00:05:15.429 Things like even like distribution channels, uh, completely different in 00:05:15.429 --> 00:05:16.929 the way they operate in different areas. 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:20.439 So figuring all of this out over the course of the past five years 00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:22.119 has been an ever-changing dynamic. 00:05:22.659 --> 00:05:26.829 Supply chain issues seem to have gotten a bit better since 20 22, 20 23. 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:31.129 But capacity issues are still kind of out outta whack here, and there's been 00:05:31.129 --> 00:05:34.699 a bit of an uneven demand recovery over the course of the past several years. 00:05:35.119 --> 00:05:36.799 Sustainability is a big challenge. 00:05:36.859 --> 00:05:41.629 Um, we, we see that in different ways in different regions. 00:05:41.929 --> 00:05:45.829 In Europe, for example, there are, it, it is. 00:05:46.509 --> 00:05:50.769 Much more regulated and people are willing to pay a premium for sustainable 00:05:50.769 --> 00:05:54.789 solutions in the US People are interested in sustainable solutions. 00:05:55.059 --> 00:05:56.649 Uh, pricing still matters. 00:05:56.679 --> 00:05:59.169 Um, and especially when you're talking about that scale. 00:05:59.169 --> 00:06:02.379 So in, you know, and then in, you know, other parts of the world, 00:06:02.379 --> 00:06:06.249 sustainability is still catching up as an opportunity and a, a value driver. 00:06:06.759 --> 00:06:09.772 So one of the biggest differences that we always think about, and, you 00:06:09.772 --> 00:06:12.502 know, we, we go to conferences like this and we talk about chemicals 00:06:12.502 --> 00:06:14.422 in this macro environment, it. 00:06:14.922 --> 00:06:18.852 Really, if you wanna boil it down just a little bit, commodities 00:06:18.852 --> 00:06:19.992 versus specialty chemicals. 00:06:19.992 --> 00:06:21.942 There's a world of difference between the two. 00:06:22.152 --> 00:06:26.652 How we, how we think about the, you know, the pricing and the customer service 00:06:26.682 --> 00:06:32.022 of, you know, bulk acetone being shipped versus, you know, new multi-component 00:06:32.022 --> 00:06:33.312 composites for EV batteries. 00:06:33.312 --> 00:06:37.376 Um, you have very different approaches to kind of commercial service and pricing 00:06:37.376 --> 00:06:38.486 and everything that goes along with that. 00:06:39.226 --> 00:06:39.586 Victoria Meyer: Yeah. 00:06:39.616 --> 00:06:40.786 that's, I think that's a great point. 00:06:40.786 --> 00:06:46.906 In fact, I recently did a, a podcast a couple weeks ago about, um, of reflections 00:06:46.906 --> 00:06:50.506 on second quarter earnings and what companies are saying and how this. 00:06:51.456 --> 00:06:54.906 Plays out for the industry right now, and as we head out to the end 00:06:54.906 --> 00:06:56.526 of the year and into next year. 00:06:56.526 --> 00:07:00.636 And, and I agree with you, there's a stark difference between specialty 00:07:00.636 --> 00:07:04.686 and commodities, and I think there's this aspect of resiliency that, 00:07:04.716 --> 00:07:08.856 specialties are able to harness in ways that commodities are not. 00:07:08.856 --> 00:07:13.446 And it's, you know, the very nature of commodity versus specialty in many ways. 00:07:13.906 --> 00:07:14.116 James Hogan: Yeah. 00:07:14.116 --> 00:07:17.506 One of the things that we will, we, we, regardless of industry, whether 00:07:17.506 --> 00:07:20.806 it's the chemical, the industry, or selling widgets from manufacturing 00:07:20.806 --> 00:07:22.246 company, people worry about commodities. 00:07:22.666 --> 00:07:23.866 We can't do anything with pricing. 00:07:24.246 --> 00:07:27.876 I will sit here and say, I don't think I've found a complete commodity yet. 00:07:28.146 --> 00:07:31.566 There is always opportunity and there's things like better lead times, better 00:07:31.566 --> 00:07:35.916 technical support, um, you know, slightly better quality or reliability, 00:07:35.916 --> 00:07:39.096 your technical support in the field, uh, if I didn't mention that already. 00:07:39.096 --> 00:07:41.556 So there's a lot of opportunity even on the commodity side. 00:07:41.776 --> 00:07:44.716 But it really comes down to going beyond price. 00:07:44.956 --> 00:07:48.406 Thinking about how else can you build value for your customers? 00:07:49.421 --> 00:07:52.391 Um, and then, you know, naturally they'll be willing to pay for that. 00:07:52.391 --> 00:07:54.911 If you make somebody's life easier, there's going, there's a, there's 00:07:54.911 --> 00:07:56.201 something that they will pay for that. 00:07:56.461 --> 00:07:58.771 Victoria Meyer: Yeah, I mean, so I think that's a great segue and we talked 00:07:58.771 --> 00:08:02.581 about, you know, pricing is a lot of times a key lever for profitability. 00:08:02.581 --> 00:08:04.531 You'd like to stay on the top line. 00:08:04.691 --> 00:08:05.021 James Hogan: Mm-hmm. 00:08:05.461 --> 00:08:06.991 Victoria Meyer: But it's not the only one. 00:08:07.081 --> 00:08:10.231 So can you walk us through what some of those other levers are 00:08:10.621 --> 00:08:15.811 and maybe how they've, um, are cha are changing, I guess, currently 00:08:15.811 --> 00:08:17.821 versus where they were in the past? 00:08:18.231 --> 00:08:18.621 James Hogan: Yes. 00:08:18.921 --> 00:08:21.801 So I will say that the way that we look at things, we are 00:08:21.801 --> 00:08:23.541 a, we, our legacy is pricing. 00:08:23.721 --> 00:08:26.931 We do think it's the most valuable lever, and one of the things that we go 00:08:26.931 --> 00:08:31.101 through is if we think about pricing. 00:08:31.176 --> 00:08:31.296 Victoria Meyer: I. 00:08:31.626 --> 00:08:33.636 James Hogan: Variable cost, fixed cost or volume. 00:08:33.846 --> 00:08:38.226 If you were to have a 5% optimization in each of those areas, the one 00:08:38.226 --> 00:08:40.176 that's gonna give you the biggest bang for the buck is pricing. 00:08:40.206 --> 00:08:41.886 'cause it falls straight to the bottom line. 00:08:42.096 --> 00:08:45.336 And you know, not getting too technical of things like elasticities 00:08:45.336 --> 00:08:48.546 and stuff like that, um, there's a biggest opportunity in pricing. 00:08:48.936 --> 00:08:53.826 That being said, price is how do you store value? 00:08:53.826 --> 00:08:54.936 How do you count value? 00:08:55.176 --> 00:08:56.436 So when you think about what. 00:08:57.201 --> 00:08:58.551 How can you work with your customers? 00:08:58.551 --> 00:08:59.961 How could you get more price? 00:09:00.201 --> 00:09:02.691 It's about creating more value for them. 00:09:02.721 --> 00:09:05.961 And one of the things we do with all of our client, almost all 00:09:05.961 --> 00:09:09.651 of our clients, is we do both an internal and an external validation 00:09:09.651 --> 00:09:11.181 of what we'll call value drivers. 00:09:11.241 --> 00:09:14.781 And so it's what do they care about when they're making a purchase? 00:09:15.081 --> 00:09:17.211 And the price is obviously one thing. 00:09:17.661 --> 00:09:20.241 It is almost never the number one thing when he gets down to it. 00:09:20.461 --> 00:09:23.851 The quality of the product, the reliability of the product, technical 00:09:23.851 --> 00:09:28.051 support, lead times during COVID went to number one for most people. 00:09:28.051 --> 00:09:30.241 Didn't matter what the price was, just gimme the lead time, or 00:09:30.241 --> 00:09:31.501 sorry, quickly following COVID. 00:09:32.154 --> 00:09:36.894 and then the one that is really often overlooked is the 00:09:36.894 --> 00:09:38.034 relationship with the sales team. 00:09:38.424 --> 00:09:42.804 Um, it's, you know, having that relationship and that trust is the 00:09:42.804 --> 00:09:45.294 most important thing you can have when you're in a business that. 00:09:45.309 --> 00:09:49.899 It is often selling, you know, large deal contracts and you know, you've gotta 00:09:49.899 --> 00:09:51.249 make sure that somebody's there for you. 00:09:51.459 --> 00:09:53.769 So all of these things really go together. 00:09:53.839 --> 00:09:56.869 And you know, one of the interesting things is if you look internally 00:09:57.169 --> 00:10:00.469 and then you talk to your, like our client's customers, there's 00:10:00.469 --> 00:10:01.669 not always complete alignment. 00:10:01.669 --> 00:10:05.029 And it's really enlightening sometimes when a sales person is gonna say, 00:10:05.029 --> 00:10:06.379 price is the only thing that matters. 00:10:06.379 --> 00:10:09.199 And the customer says, actually, that's fourth or fifth on my list. 00:10:09.349 --> 00:10:11.599 I need to know that you can get me the material when you have 00:10:11.599 --> 00:10:13.429 it, and you're gonna be there to support me when it gets there. 00:10:14.189 --> 00:10:14.699 Victoria Meyer: I agree. 00:10:14.909 --> 00:10:19.169 And, and I think it's, uh, it, it sometimes seems like, feels like an easy 00:10:19.169 --> 00:10:24.119 lever to pull, but as you say, especially in the current environment, Business 00:10:24.119 --> 00:10:29.669 is always competitive, so being able to harness other levers is critical. 00:10:29.859 --> 00:10:33.429 And I just think back to my, my time in, in corporate, whether it 00:10:33.429 --> 00:10:35.409 be at Shell or Clat, and there. 00:10:35.409 --> 00:10:39.936 were times we said, Of course, you know, everybody's delivering on spec and of 00:10:39.936 --> 00:10:41.376 course our quality is all the same. 00:10:41.376 --> 00:10:45.516 And then you, you dive in a little bit deeper and you find out, no, 00:10:45.516 --> 00:10:47.046 that's not necessarily the case. 00:10:47.046 --> 00:10:52.446 Or, you know, the spec is big enough to drive a truck through we stay 00:10:52.451 --> 00:10:52.751 James Hogan: Yes. 00:10:52.776 --> 00:10:56.166 Victoria Meyer: tight in a certain area, which certain customers prefer not. 00:10:56.166 --> 00:11:01.176 So I think, more depth and not just accepting the fast answer and the 00:11:01.176 --> 00:11:03.036 assumptions becomes pretty critical. 00:11:03.551 --> 00:11:05.246 James Hogan: It is funny when you talk about specs there. 00:11:05.246 --> 00:11:09.476 We've done some work recently with some process chemical companies, and to your 00:11:09.476 --> 00:11:11.606 point exactly the the spec is one thing. 00:11:11.606 --> 00:11:15.356 Delivering the bare minimum is one thing, providing extra value. 00:11:15.356 --> 00:11:18.206 Again, going above and beyond, um, people are willing to. 00:11:18.641 --> 00:11:20.261 Companies are willing to pay more for that. 00:11:20.261 --> 00:11:24.127 And you know what this really comes down to is everybody 00:11:24.127 --> 00:11:25.477 wants to avoid a price war. 00:11:25.507 --> 00:11:28.927 In an industry like this where margins are razor thin, you can't afford to go down. 00:11:29.257 --> 00:11:32.407 So let's all focus on adding more value. 00:11:32.677 --> 00:11:34.897 You add more value, you find a way to add more value. 00:11:34.927 --> 00:11:38.947 Customers will find a, a reason and willingness to pay a little bit more. 00:11:39.127 --> 00:11:42.577 And you know, our side is, let's raise the bar rather than lower the bar. 00:11:42.602 --> 00:11:45.842 Victoria Meyer: Yeah, so, so sometimes value can feel 00:11:45.842 --> 00:11:47.732 like a profit killer, right? 00:11:47.732 --> 00:11:52.502 So, um, you know, I think about this and the easy thing to say is. 00:11:53.582 --> 00:11:58.232 Well, sure I could do more for my customer, but that's costly. 00:11:58.952 --> 00:12:00.932 do you combat that point of view? 00:12:01.477 --> 00:12:02.707 James Hogan: Yeah, absolutely. 00:12:02.767 --> 00:12:07.027 And we actually, we run a similar exercise where we understand 00:12:07.087 --> 00:12:08.077 or we want to understand. 00:12:08.632 --> 00:12:10.342 What do the customers care about? 00:12:10.762 --> 00:12:14.362 And then how do you perform relative to your peers in each of those categories? 00:12:14.692 --> 00:12:19.042 So you want to stay, we call it the consistency corridor, where the value 00:12:19.042 --> 00:12:20.482 you're providing matches the importance. 00:12:21.172 --> 00:12:26.482 Of your customers and you know, if you find yourself providing more value or 00:12:26.482 --> 00:12:30.382 a lot of value and investing in areas where your customers don't care about, 00:12:30.622 --> 00:12:34.972 let's pull some out of that potentially and and reallocate to something where 00:12:35.002 --> 00:12:37.342 you find out your customers care a ton. 00:12:37.722 --> 00:12:39.672 And maybe you're not doing well. 00:12:39.672 --> 00:12:40.332 Absolutely. 00:12:40.332 --> 00:12:44.442 Or you're not doing as well as your peers and reallocate some investment there. 00:12:44.442 --> 00:12:47.952 So whether that's actual financial investment, whether that is resources 00:12:47.952 --> 00:12:52.282 internally, whether it's marketing, pr, something like that to, to just make sure 00:12:52.282 --> 00:12:55.462 that the value you're providing to the clients matches what they care about. 00:12:55.702 --> 00:12:56.722 That's, that's number one. 00:12:56.722 --> 00:13:00.652 Because people want to come down to am I getting value for the price I'm paying? 00:13:01.182 --> 00:13:01.932 Victoria Meyer: All right, James. 00:13:01.932 --> 00:13:06.192 So you and I both know that, each of us, you know, if, if we are sitting 00:13:06.192 --> 00:13:11.202 inside of a, a chemical company, we have certain things that we think, of 00:13:11.202 --> 00:13:15.882 course the customer hugely values this, and then we find out that they don't. 00:13:16.272 --> 00:13:17.982 And this whole idea of backing away. 00:13:18.452 --> 00:13:22.872 Uh, and I'm sure you guys get into these conversations of, how do you 00:13:22.872 --> 00:13:26.172 get people to change inside of a company, let's say, to change their 00:13:26.172 --> 00:13:32.292 behaviors or the, the own values that they apply to a certain attribute, 00:13:32.292 --> 00:13:34.002 a certain service level, et cetera. 00:13:34.692 --> 00:13:35.712 does that play out? 00:13:36.487 --> 00:13:40.027 James Hogan: There's change management is not easy anywhere. 00:13:40.147 --> 00:13:43.507 Um, and that works inside of our clients works when you're trying to 00:13:43.507 --> 00:13:48.787 talk to other customers and you know, oftentimes it is really outlining. 00:13:48.842 --> 00:13:52.442 Quantifying where you can, again, we come back to a bunch of technical people in 00:13:52.442 --> 00:13:55.622 the chemicals world where you can assign numbers to something that's gonna help. 00:13:55.892 --> 00:14:01.202 So when you can say, when you can show somebody, if you do this, you will 00:14:01.202 --> 00:14:06.182 realize these types of process gains or this type of financial impact, or 00:14:06.422 --> 00:14:09.902 your NPS score is gonna go up a little bit with your customers if you do this. 00:14:10.142 --> 00:14:12.812 All these things that you can try to ascribe a number to. 00:14:12.812 --> 00:14:14.732 It is really beneficial in this industry. 00:14:14.732 --> 00:14:15.962 'cause that's how people, 00:14:16.162 --> 00:14:16.522 Victoria Meyer: Yeah. 00:14:17.502 --> 00:14:18.827 James Hogan: Overall, really think about things. 00:14:19.342 --> 00:14:21.892 Victoria Meyer: So are there any surprises in terms, I mean, it sounds 00:14:21.892 --> 00:14:25.072 like you guys have done a lot of conversations, a lot of surveys, a lot. 00:14:25.462 --> 00:14:31.762 Are there any surprises that come up occasionally or regularly in terms 00:14:31.762 --> 00:14:33.742 of what customers do or don't value? 00:14:35.292 --> 00:14:35.847 James Hogan: I think going. 00:14:36.662 --> 00:14:41.042 Going back to the fact that price is normally third, fourth, or fifth, 00:14:41.372 --> 00:14:44.342 again, the salespeople are almost always gonna say it's number one. 00:14:44.592 --> 00:14:46.812 It really comes down to the quality of the product, 00:14:46.847 --> 00:14:47.267 Victoria Meyer: Yeah. 00:14:47.862 --> 00:14:50.232 James Hogan: technical support you're gonna give and provide, 00:14:50.292 --> 00:14:51.822 um, is a big one nowadays. 00:14:51.972 --> 00:14:55.242 And then, you know, things like lead time have generally been consistent. 00:14:55.602 --> 00:14:57.132 It spiked right after COVID. 00:14:57.132 --> 00:14:59.022 It's come down a little bit in since then. 00:14:59.382 --> 00:15:01.722 And then, you know, again, back to the. 00:15:02.162 --> 00:15:05.492 Uh, the relationship with the sales is, is, is really critical. 00:15:05.492 --> 00:15:09.842 And the last couple things I'll throw in there is if you are selling across a 00:15:09.842 --> 00:15:13.982 broad product portfolio, understanding whether your customers care that 00:15:13.982 --> 00:15:17.942 you have everything or that you have five different versions of one thing. 00:15:17.942 --> 00:15:19.412 So do you want to go broad? 00:15:19.472 --> 00:15:20.402 Do you want to go deep? 00:15:20.672 --> 00:15:24.482 You know, where, what is your value proposition for your customer? 00:15:24.482 --> 00:15:28.052 And can you clearly define that when you're going through that 00:15:28.052 --> 00:15:29.792 Sales process is really critical. 00:15:30.527 --> 00:15:31.727 Victoria Meyer: Yeah, that's a good point. 00:15:32.027 --> 00:15:32.477 So. 00:15:32.942 --> 00:15:34.772 How has it changed over time? 00:15:34.772 --> 00:15:38.092 So, you know, I think, when I think about pricing strategies and pricing 00:15:38.092 --> 00:15:42.312 models, at one point in time, and maybe still in some parts of the industry, 00:15:42.612 --> 00:15:44.652 things were heavily formula-based. 00:15:44.952 --> 00:15:46.812 Or, you know, sometimes they're value-based or you're 00:15:46.812 --> 00:15:48.462 negotiating every order. 00:15:48.822 --> 00:15:53.682 Are There any big shifts that you've seen in terms of just the 00:15:53.682 --> 00:15:55.482 pricing strategies and approaches? 00:15:56.642 --> 00:15:58.742 James Hogan: There has been a major shift over the course of, I 00:15:58.742 --> 00:16:00.662 dunno, the past 10, 20, 30 years. 00:16:00.762 --> 00:16:03.882 The goal, the unicorn is value-based pricing for everything. 00:16:03.942 --> 00:16:08.202 What is the value that a customer ascribes to this product? 00:16:08.442 --> 00:16:10.812 What is kinda the maximum they're willing to pay? 00:16:11.052 --> 00:16:14.622 Um, that makes sense and that doesn't apply everywhere. 00:16:14.712 --> 00:16:17.147 Um, I go back to kind of selling a. 00:16:17.392 --> 00:16:22.702 Bulk acetone and it's going to be a, you know, a, a x amount, dollars per ton, 00:16:22.972 --> 00:16:25.132 um, or, you know, whatever it may be. 00:16:25.342 --> 00:16:26.782 And it's very cost plus. 00:16:26.812 --> 00:16:29.902 And you add on freight, you add on a couple other things, and, and you 00:16:29.902 --> 00:16:32.002 get that it's formulaic over time. 00:16:32.002 --> 00:16:34.342 We switched a little bit to toward index pricing. 00:16:34.372 --> 00:16:37.677 It was a little bit more transparent, as an index went up or down. 00:16:37.677 --> 00:16:39.622 Everybody understood that it moved that way. 00:16:40.027 --> 00:16:43.957 That got complex over time, multi-component formulas, um, 00:16:43.987 --> 00:16:45.337 you know, things become opaque. 00:16:45.637 --> 00:16:48.337 Um, and if you don't have a good relationship, again, back to that, 00:16:48.587 --> 00:16:51.797 it's an easy way to, you know, maybe not trust the other side. 00:16:51.857 --> 00:16:56.237 Um, if things become complex, you know, as we move now toward 00:16:56.267 --> 00:17:00.167 value-based pricing, understanding differentiation of your customer 00:17:00.167 --> 00:17:03.857 set, you know, is somebody willing to pay more or less because they're in. 00:17:04.532 --> 00:17:06.362 The Northeast versus the southwest. 00:17:06.812 --> 00:17:11.852 Different end markets, um, you know, OEMs and cars for, you know, electric vehicles. 00:17:12.242 --> 00:17:14.942 You know, have a different value that they can pass through to their customer for 00:17:14.942 --> 00:17:18.782 certain inputs and, um, products versus somebody else who may be buying the same 00:17:18.782 --> 00:17:20.612 inputs to, you know, to lithium batteries. 00:17:21.022 --> 00:17:24.052 There's a lot of different things that have moved, but definitely moving toward 00:17:24.052 --> 00:17:26.542 value-based is important for pricing. 00:17:26.872 --> 00:17:28.792 It also creates a shift in sales. 00:17:29.482 --> 00:17:34.162 The, the old days of there's an index and or it's cost plus you 00:17:34.162 --> 00:17:37.822 can be an order taker and you know, somebody calls you and says, I need. 00:17:38.587 --> 00:17:42.097 300 tons of this, and you can say the price is, you know, x. 00:17:42.417 --> 00:17:45.837 Nowadays, especially in the chemi, especially chemicals world, when you're 00:17:45.837 --> 00:17:49.617 trying to, you know, innovate regularly and add more value for your customers, 00:17:49.827 --> 00:17:51.207 you've gotta be able to sell that value. 00:17:51.207 --> 00:17:53.097 You need somebody that knows the product well. 00:17:53.367 --> 00:17:58.737 You need somebody that can go and defend that value and explain why the ROI 00:17:58.737 --> 00:18:00.507 for that purchase is higher for them. 00:18:00.507 --> 00:18:03.237 So it's creating a, a larger commercial shift. 00:18:03.237 --> 00:18:05.757 It's not just pricing, it's hitting a bunch of different functional areas. 00:18:05.852 --> 00:18:08.697 Victoria Meyer: Yeah, I mean, it sounds like it's gotten more sophisticated. 00:18:09.817 --> 00:18:13.507 Would you, how does the role of distributors play into this, right? 00:18:13.507 --> 00:18:17.797 Because that also adds a different dynamic versus when you've got a 00:18:17.797 --> 00:18:23.677 producer, consumer formulator relationship versus, um, bringing a distributor. 00:18:23.677 --> 00:18:27.937 And now of course, some of the, some distributors are, uh, sole sourced, right? 00:18:27.937 --> 00:18:31.367 So they're dedicated to a particular company and product line and, 00:18:31.387 --> 00:18:34.687 and how they structure it, and others are making decisions. 00:18:35.512 --> 00:18:38.032 Somehow that's always been a little bit of a mystery, to be honest, 00:18:38.302 --> 00:18:41.362 um, across other various producers. 00:18:42.352 --> 00:18:43.732 How does that play into this? 00:18:44.412 --> 00:18:46.062 James Hogan: Yeah, I, you, you kind of hit it, right? 00:18:46.062 --> 00:18:47.412 There's a couple of different things at play. 00:18:47.412 --> 00:18:51.342 One, the exclusivity factor can help or hinder distributor, 00:18:51.522 --> 00:18:52.932 um, in going to market. 00:18:53.172 --> 00:18:57.552 But you, the real key in kind of their position in the value stream is the 00:18:57.552 --> 00:19:01.902 ability to reach a bigger audience than a manufacturer could themselves and. 00:19:02.652 --> 00:19:03.792 A different manufacturer. 00:19:03.792 --> 00:19:06.402 You know, the, the, the scale that they have or the sophistication they 00:19:06.402 --> 00:19:09.342 have, you know, they may wanna work with different types of distributors. 00:19:09.342 --> 00:19:13.152 Some are, you know, buy my product, add a margin, and sell 00:19:13.152 --> 00:19:14.862 it wherever you want Others. 00:19:14.922 --> 00:19:18.192 We really like to focus on is there an opportunity for co-op marketing? 00:19:18.522 --> 00:19:21.522 Let, let's kind of blend the value stream a little bit. 00:19:21.702 --> 00:19:24.432 Have the manufacturer working hand in hand with the distributor 00:19:24.432 --> 00:19:25.962 to explain the value prop. 00:19:26.202 --> 00:19:28.632 You know, especially if you're a distributor of specialty chemicals, 00:19:29.126 --> 00:19:32.756 Distributors don't always have technical knowledge to nearly to 00:19:32.756 --> 00:19:35.666 the degree that the manufacturer or the the innovator actually does. 00:19:35.996 --> 00:19:39.896 So do you need a, a, you know, technical support and, you know, support up and 00:19:39.896 --> 00:19:43.376 down that value chain, um, in order to deliver that product to the customer? 00:19:43.376 --> 00:19:48.106 So identifying what you want a distributor to, to do, is the key here. 00:19:48.376 --> 00:19:50.626 I think the third, the third part that we've seen recently is. 00:19:50.946 --> 00:19:54.966 You're actually the manufacturer selling to the end customer, and you 00:19:54.966 --> 00:19:58.416 are only giving the distributor a margin just to facilitate the logistics. 00:19:58.686 --> 00:20:01.536 So again, a whole bunch of different ways you can work with distributors, but 00:20:01.536 --> 00:20:05.706 they're an absolutely critical aspect of this industry because you've gotta 00:20:05.706 --> 00:20:08.591 get product from plant to customer and uh, nobody knows it better. 00:20:09.521 --> 00:20:09.881 Victoria Meyer: Yeah. 00:20:10.181 --> 00:20:10.571 Great. 00:20:10.841 --> 00:20:12.281 Um, what about digital? 00:20:12.641 --> 00:20:16.451 Like, you know, we are living in a digital world, I gotta be honest. 00:20:16.511 --> 00:20:20.861 Um, I was sleepless, sleepless this morning at 3:00 AM on Amazon 00:20:20.861 --> 00:20:22.361 making a couple of purchases. 00:20:22.691 --> 00:20:25.991 Um, not so easy to do in the chemical industry. 00:20:26.051 --> 00:20:29.171 And yet we know that digital has a role to play. 00:20:30.116 --> 00:20:32.336 What role are you seeing digital playing? 00:20:32.396 --> 00:20:34.316 When we think about pricing and value? 00:20:34.741 --> 00:20:37.681 James Hogan: Yeah, that the term digital is so ubiquitous 00:20:37.711 --> 00:20:39.661 and all encompassing nowadays. 00:20:39.661 --> 00:20:42.031 It's very difficult to narrow down what do we mean? 00:20:42.361 --> 00:20:45.961 And I think that it's especially tricky in the chemicals industry where. 00:20:46.741 --> 00:20:49.741 You know, it tends to lag in technology and innovation in that regard. 00:20:49.741 --> 00:20:53.791 I think we are catching up in a number of ways and there are some ways that 00:20:53.791 --> 00:20:56.671 are clear we can't fall behind further. 00:20:56.941 --> 00:20:58.471 Um, or else you're always playing catch up. 00:20:58.471 --> 00:21:00.901 And the easy example is, is ai. 00:21:00.951 --> 00:21:03.741 How is that going to help this industry in the future? 00:21:03.961 --> 00:21:05.401 I think there's, there's a couple. 00:21:06.016 --> 00:21:10.366 I won't say easy, but maybe easy to identify opportunities like, uh, 00:21:10.396 --> 00:21:13.586 demand forecasting, optimize pricing. 00:21:13.906 --> 00:21:17.116 Those are a couple areas where AI will certainly be able to help a little bit. 00:21:17.381 --> 00:21:17.921 Victoria Meyer: Yeah. 00:21:17.941 --> 00:21:20.191 James Hogan: the, the other areas where I see digital 00:21:20.191 --> 00:21:21.811 really helping is dashboarding. 00:21:21.891 --> 00:21:25.421 You've seen, if you've gone into a plant, you've seen KPI dashboards 00:21:25.421 --> 00:21:29.231 or monitors with all of the supply chain throughput, throughputs and how 00:21:29.231 --> 00:21:30.821 everything's being, you know, created. 00:21:31.011 --> 00:21:34.431 That's becoming a lot more useful on the front end and the commercial side as well. 00:21:34.671 --> 00:21:39.561 Um, understanding, using data-driven insights to understand why is a customer. 00:21:40.101 --> 00:21:42.501 Why haven't they bought in three months when they, you know, were 00:21:42.501 --> 00:21:44.031 buying over a long period of time. 00:21:44.321 --> 00:21:47.561 Why are they only buying a small portion of the portfolio when 00:21:47.561 --> 00:21:48.581 you know they could buy it? 00:21:48.911 --> 00:21:52.181 So trying to, you know, these types of data-driven insights is gonna 00:21:52.181 --> 00:21:53.891 be, are, is gonna be very helpful. 00:21:54.071 --> 00:21:59.621 And then just the, the using smarter KPIs to run your business and make decisions 00:21:59.621 --> 00:22:02.951 and not just having a bunch of charts and graphs for the sake of having, because 00:22:02.951 --> 00:22:04.991 you have a, you have the ability to do so. 00:22:05.051 --> 00:22:05.141 And 00:22:05.346 --> 00:22:05.796 Victoria Meyer: Yeah. 00:22:05.861 --> 00:22:08.641 James Hogan: the last, the last thing I'll mention here is, around 00:22:08.731 --> 00:22:13.591 blockchain technology, which has kind of gone, had peaks and valleys over 00:22:13.591 --> 00:22:16.501 the past several years on, uh, the usefulness and the use cases of it. 00:22:16.891 --> 00:22:19.831 But I think, you know, something the pharma industry has done for. 00:22:20.476 --> 00:22:24.526 Years and years now is track, uh, is track and trace and sustainability and 00:22:24.526 --> 00:22:28.516 understanding that now using blockchain technology to kind of have that public 00:22:28.516 --> 00:22:32.596 ledger should hopefully open up some opportunities, not just in pharma but in 00:22:32.596 --> 00:22:36.406 other chemicals to make sure the product I'm ordering is the product I'm getting. 00:22:36.406 --> 00:22:37.606 There's no black markets. 00:22:37.876 --> 00:22:41.776 Um, we can understand all of this and, and, and track and trace accordingly. 00:22:41.776 --> 00:22:43.786 So a lot of different unique ways. 00:22:43.786 --> 00:22:46.636 I think we're still a bit in the infancy on many of these, 00:22:46.936 --> 00:22:49.096 um, but a big opportunity for the industry moving forward. 00:22:49.156 --> 00:22:51.686 Victoria Meyer: Yeah, and I think that your comment about blockchain 00:22:51.686 --> 00:22:55.826 is interesting 'cause you're right, a few years ago that was the talk, 00:22:55.826 --> 00:22:57.056 everybody was talking about blockchain. 00:22:57.056 --> 00:23:00.296 By the way, I still do not understand blockchain. 00:23:00.506 --> 00:23:03.926 I'm hoping somebody somewhere can explain it to me in a way that I 00:23:03.926 --> 00:23:05.966 understand 'cause it's not there yet. 00:23:06.326 --> 00:23:09.596 But It certainly seems like it's moved to the background rather than to the 00:23:09.596 --> 00:23:11.246 forefront of what folks are doing. 00:23:12.656 --> 00:23:15.841 James Hogan: It is been a wild couple, uh, wild couple years in the industry and in. 00:23:16.471 --> 00:23:19.261 Geopolitics and everything where you've, we've, we've always gotta 00:23:19.261 --> 00:23:22.621 prioritize, uh, what we're thinking about today and, and tomorrow. 00:23:22.621 --> 00:23:25.381 And I do think you are exactly correct in that. 00:23:25.661 --> 00:23:29.681 It has not been, I'll say, marketed or explained well for everybody, 00:23:30.487 --> 00:23:31.837 there's a network effect to this. 00:23:31.837 --> 00:23:34.957 And I think eventually we will get there, but it's not easy yet. 00:23:34.957 --> 00:23:36.817 And, um, that's, that's a key. 00:23:36.877 --> 00:23:39.757 Uh, not just for chemicals for blockchain overall. 00:23:39.937 --> 00:23:41.317 Um, I think it's gonna be helpful. 00:23:41.347 --> 00:23:44.167 Um, I think we've still got some, some time before it takes, 00:23:44.167 --> 00:23:45.187 uh, takes hold mainstream. 00:23:45.692 --> 00:23:45.962 Victoria Meyer: Yeah. 00:23:46.052 --> 00:23:49.987 All right, James, you mentioned the T word being tariffs and. 00:23:51.077 --> 00:23:52.127 They are what they are. 00:23:52.127 --> 00:23:54.377 And I know you, you know, so we're not gonna get into 00:23:54.377 --> 00:23:56.307 the, what it is and why it is 00:23:56.342 --> 00:23:56.562 James Hogan: Yep. 00:23:56.637 --> 00:24:00.177 Victoria Meyer: it is, but more importantly, how do tariffs 00:24:00.177 --> 00:24:05.667 play into this whole aspect of pricing and value, particularly 00:24:05.667 --> 00:24:07.197 in a market where if You look. 00:24:07.482 --> 00:24:10.722 Um, generally speaking at the chemical industry, how about this will take 00:24:10.722 --> 00:24:14.712 commodities seem to be quite long and overbuilt, specialty is mixed. 00:24:15.522 --> 00:24:18.612 the conversations and considerations you and your 00:24:18.612 --> 00:24:20.352 clients are having around tariffs? 00:24:20.616 --> 00:24:21.006 James Hogan: You are right. 00:24:21.066 --> 00:24:22.086 It is very complicated. 00:24:22.186 --> 00:24:24.436 The issue with tariffs right now is the uncertainty. 00:24:24.656 --> 00:24:30.296 And if we knew that tariffs were going to stay, then it would be, 00:24:30.326 --> 00:24:31.646 we'd have one approach to it. 00:24:32.006 --> 00:24:34.946 When we don't know if they're gonna stay or they may be pulled back, it makes it 00:24:34.946 --> 00:24:36.356 a little more complex and understanding. 00:24:36.356 --> 00:24:38.066 How do you manage that as a firm? 00:24:38.066 --> 00:24:38.636 How do you as. 00:24:40.076 --> 00:24:43.196 As a manufacturer, how do you manage that as a customer? 00:24:43.556 --> 00:24:46.589 There is a bit of a timing game here, and there's a couple 00:24:46.589 --> 00:24:47.369 different ways you can do it. 00:24:47.369 --> 00:24:51.269 One is putting a surcharge onto your invoice and saying, this is a tariff 00:24:51.269 --> 00:24:52.619 surcharge, so it's transparent. 00:24:52.859 --> 00:24:54.019 If tariffs move, you take it off. 00:24:54.624 --> 00:24:58.224 Another, and sometimes for simplicity, the customer would prefer just put 00:24:58.224 --> 00:24:59.304 it in the price of the product. 00:24:59.544 --> 00:25:02.934 Um, if they, if they come off, then we can lower and move the price around. 00:25:02.934 --> 00:25:06.234 But there's a lot of integrated systems here where, and I, I 00:25:06.234 --> 00:25:09.354 say systems intentionally in IT and infrastructure that. 00:25:10.294 --> 00:25:15.304 When you have, you know, EDI talking to, you know, other ERPs from customer to 00:25:15.334 --> 00:25:17.764 uh, manufacturer, it's, it's complicated. 00:25:17.829 --> 00:25:18.119 Victoria Meyer: Yeah. 00:25:18.394 --> 00:25:20.884 James Hogan: so trying to find a way to get those, you know, get 00:25:20.884 --> 00:25:22.294 that to work together is important. 00:25:22.674 --> 00:25:26.094 I understand the intent of. 00:25:26.459 --> 00:25:30.489 Tariffs and we want to optimize for, some of the, the economics and 00:25:30.489 --> 00:25:31.719 different reasons around the world. 00:25:31.979 --> 00:25:35.249 It's a long-term game, like you mentioned when you're trying, when you're talking 00:25:35.249 --> 00:25:39.299 about building production plants to satisfy, you know, capacity and demand, 00:25:39.299 --> 00:25:41.429 and now we have tariffs on top of it. 00:25:41.729 --> 00:25:44.584 These are not things that can get decided or built in, you know? 00:25:45.134 --> 00:25:45.554 A year. 00:25:45.584 --> 00:25:47.594 These are five, 10 year CapEx builds. 00:25:47.594 --> 00:25:50.504 And we've started talking to some of our customers about scenario planning. 00:25:50.504 --> 00:25:54.704 And I think that's a key that is, that has become more important is you might 00:25:54.704 --> 00:26:00.651 not execute all of these things, but you need to have plans in place if something 00:26:00.651 --> 00:26:02.061 happens that you know is gonna last. 00:26:02.061 --> 00:26:05.211 So scenario planning has been a big piece of some of our work with our 00:26:05.211 --> 00:26:08.431 clients recently and just, if this, then that, you know, if something 00:26:08.431 --> 00:26:09.536 happens, let's be prepared to react. 00:26:10.181 --> 00:26:11.291 Victoria Meyer: Yeah, so critical. 00:26:11.321 --> 00:26:11.951 So critical. 00:26:11.951 --> 00:26:13.151 I love scenario planning. 00:26:13.151 --> 00:26:18.281 I don't think we, um, utilize it as effectively and as often as we should. 00:26:18.341 --> 00:26:21.251 Um, some of my history, uh. 00:26:21.626 --> 00:26:25.676 It shows that, you know, sometimes scenarios are identified and then they 00:26:25.676 --> 00:26:28.646 become forgotten, and then when they show up, it's like, remember there was a 00:26:28.681 --> 00:26:28.921 James Hogan: Yep. 00:26:29.186 --> 00:26:29.876 Victoria Meyer: and this is it. 00:26:30.206 --> 00:26:31.166 Oh, but 00:26:31.216 --> 00:26:32.896 James Hogan: Deep down people love to play devil's. 00:26:32.896 --> 00:26:32.926 Uh, 00:26:33.501 --> 00:26:33.791 Victoria Meyer: Like. 00:26:34.546 --> 00:26:36.796 James Hogan: deep down people love to play devil's advocate in these meetings. 00:26:36.856 --> 00:26:39.886 If you're doing war gaming or you know, any sort of game theory and, 00:26:40.216 --> 00:26:43.156 uh, you know, you get a lot of, you know, smart people in this industry 00:26:43.156 --> 00:26:46.996 in a room and say what could happen if, um, it, it can be a fun exercise. 00:26:47.056 --> 00:26:50.806 The busy work and the important work is how do we quantify that and how do we 00:26:50.806 --> 00:26:55.076 make the right decisions based on data, while making assumptions that, you know, 00:26:55.076 --> 00:26:56.486 could have very different outcomes. 00:26:56.486 --> 00:26:59.136 But, this is the world we live in now and we've gotta make sure 00:26:59.136 --> 00:27:02.796 that we, you know, we are prepared to adapt, uh, or get left behind. 00:27:03.026 --> 00:27:03.956 Victoria Meyer: Yeah, absolutely. 00:27:04.226 --> 00:27:04.676 Awesome. 00:27:04.676 --> 00:27:05.336 This has been great. 00:27:05.336 --> 00:27:07.346 So James, final question for you. 00:27:07.731 --> 00:27:12.291 You know, if you were giving advice to a young James Hogan or to another, you 00:27:12.291 --> 00:27:15.621 know, young professional in the chemical industry that's really looking to build 00:27:15.621 --> 00:27:19.791 their career, um, whether It be in pricing and consulting or just even to 00:27:19.791 --> 00:27:23.541 get to a senior level in the chemical industry, what advice would you give them? 00:27:25.201 --> 00:27:27.421 James Hogan: It is, it's always to do what you're interested in. 00:27:27.587 --> 00:27:28.157 I did that. 00:27:28.157 --> 00:27:29.687 It took me a couple of different directions and I 00:27:29.687 --> 00:27:30.977 kept finding more interest. 00:27:31.339 --> 00:27:36.199 I joined consulting because it, I thought it was a great job to figure 00:27:36.199 --> 00:27:37.609 out what I wanted to be when I grew up. 00:27:37.919 --> 00:27:40.649 So I'm still figuring out what I wanna be when I grow up. 00:27:40.649 --> 00:27:42.419 I work, you know, eight to 00:27:42.594 --> 00:27:43.224 Victoria Meyer: so you know. 00:27:43.259 --> 00:27:45.329 James Hogan: indeed, uh, eight to 12 weeks at a time. 00:27:45.329 --> 00:27:46.319 It's always something different. 00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:47.429 It's always something exciting. 00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:49.139 I work around the world. 00:27:49.139 --> 00:27:50.939 I work with great people, and I have fun doing it. 00:27:51.179 --> 00:27:51.809 So. 00:27:52.324 --> 00:27:55.384 There are other people that say, I want to go into this company. 00:27:55.384 --> 00:27:57.454 I want to exact change in this company. 00:27:57.454 --> 00:28:01.354 I want to be here for, you know, the long term for 10, 15, 20 years. 00:28:01.624 --> 00:28:05.554 This chemical, the chemicals industry has lifers in some of these large companies. 00:28:05.554 --> 00:28:06.574 And, and it's great. 00:28:06.604 --> 00:28:10.954 And that history is what is, what drives, um, you know, is what drives success here. 00:28:10.954 --> 00:28:13.594 And I think at the end of the day, you know, when. 00:28:14.549 --> 00:28:17.699 People ask me, you know, what makes a successful consultant? 00:28:17.699 --> 00:28:21.359 I think it's the same thing that makes a successful anything is communication. 00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:22.589 Be honest with yourself. 00:28:22.709 --> 00:28:27.049 Talk to your bosses, your colleagues, you know, have an open and transparent 00:28:27.049 --> 00:28:31.329 conversation about what interests you, what you can do to support 00:28:31.539 --> 00:28:32.859 the, the company, the customer. 00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:35.589 Um, and you'll find out that you, you end up having fun doing it. 00:28:35.589 --> 00:28:38.119 And, it's a reason we get to have these types of conversations today. 00:28:38.939 --> 00:28:39.209 Victoria Meyer: Yeah. 00:28:39.299 --> 00:28:39.689 Awesome. 00:28:39.959 --> 00:28:40.439 James. 00:28:40.469 --> 00:28:40.949 Thank you. 00:28:40.949 --> 00:28:42.929 This has been a really great conversation. 00:28:42.929 --> 00:28:46.739 I really appreciate you joining me here on The Chemical Show and at the Chemical 00:28:46.739 --> 00:28:48.119 Summit in just a couple of weeks. 00:28:48.694 --> 00:28:51.034 James Hogan: I am looking forward to joining you and, uh, look forward to, 00:28:51.034 --> 00:28:52.199 uh, seeing some of our viewers there. 00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:54.779 Victoria Meyer: Absolutely, and thank you everyone for joining us today. 00:28:54.779 --> 00:28:57.389 Keep listening, keep following, keep sharing, and we will 00:28:57.389 --> 00:28:59.004 talk with you again soon.