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Zoe: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Autism and Theology Podcast, brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen

Hello, and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology Podcast. I'm Zoe, and it's great that you've joined us this week. This podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, sharing relevant resources and promoting ways that help faith and non-faith communities enable autistic people to [00:01:00] flourish.

This podcast is run from the University of Aberdeen's Center for Autism and Theology, which we shorten to CAT. A transcript for the episode can be found in the show notes. So, we're currently doing a series on autism, neurodiversity, and sacred texts. So, this month we had Lizzie Peach on the podcast to talk about autism and the Bible, and that was such a fantastic, um, episode just hearing her insights.

And we have other really exciting guests lined up. Um, but today on CAT Chat, I'm joined by Ian and Krysia, and we thought we'd have a little chat around small groups, or also known as home groups. We've had this discussion already 'cause Ian calls them small groups, and I was calling them home groups. Um, but yeah, whatever you call a group of people from your faith community meeting and chatting about scripture, and yeah, we thought we'd just have a discussion today around experiences of home groups and how to make home groups [00:02:00] more neurodiversity inclusive or welcoming. Um, but yeah, I don't know if either of you, like...

I, like, go to a home group currently. I lead a home group. I don't know if, like, either of you are part of small groups. I guess that's a helpful thing to start kicking us off, give a bit of context. 

Krysia: So, I have been in the past, but I'm not currently involved with one or leading one, so you're doing more than I am currently, Zoe.

Zoe: I mean, the ho- I say I lead a home group. My home group is, like, me, my husband, my sister, and my brother-in-law, so yeah. 

Krysia: That's still a home group as far as I'm concerned. 

Ian: Yeah, that, uh, that counts. Absolutely.

I'm in the same boat as Krysia. I have done them in the past. Um, I do not currently. I, I suspect that we might have similar reasons why that is the case. Um, some of my experiences have been, uh, I, uh, [00:03:00] not tremendously painful, but clearly not designed for me, right? Not designed with autistic people in mind.

Um, so, yeah. 

Krysia: Yeah, and I guess also with some of mine, I've certainly... So I was in a small group when I moved to Germany, so I lived in, uh, Berlin. I went to an international church there, and I found that really good, and kind of really quite self-starting. But I've also been part of small groups in the UK where it's just been people just thrown together, and that has been a lot more difficult to get everyone kind of gelling together.

Or there's one person who has to lead everything, and it's... It just felt a lot less natural, and of kind of a bit more kind of a duty to go, rather than something you enjoy going and gaining quite a bit from. But I was also quite a bit younger when I lived in Berlin and attended that small group, and it was quite a church.

Had quite a few transient people going through it, so it was always kind [00:04:00] of refreshing and changing. So the two experiences I've had are quite different in terms of access and just being autistic in that space. 

Zoe: I suppose, like, it might be helpful for us to go through some of the things that people maybe wouldn't always think of that can be difficult about home groups. Because I think there's the, like, sort of when churches start home groups or small groups, it's like this is such a good way to get people in the church to spend time together in a smaller setting, and, like, kind of building that fellowship side of things.

But then people don't always recognize the barriers that people might face engaging with that. So I wonder if it's helpful, like, just to, yeah, go through some of those barriers. 

Krysia: I mean, I remember the first time I went to both home groups. I was in... I th- I'm sure this is a very across the board experience where you get quite nervous going to something new for the first time.

But that's always been a major, major stumbling block for [00:05:00] me, when I'm entering a space where I don't know the people as well. I don't know who I'm gonna vibe with on both a kind of interests, and we do, you know, we do things kind of the same way level, and we have the same outlook. And we bounce off each other, including into how we kind of engage with scripture-wise.

But also where I- I'm quite a slow processor sometimes, and I think as I said on Cat Chat before, the Bible is one of the worst books to read if you're dyslexic or have visual stress. It's a nightmare having to kind of think, if we're gonna read this out loud, which bits am I specifically doing? Can I keep track of where we're going?

Um, and sometimes where we're kind of asked to, what is this saying to you? I sometimes find a lot of language we use as Christians to be quite obscure. So when we talk about [00:06:00] things like having a good servant's heart or gifts to the church, I just completely freeze, 'cause I'm very much someone who likes to call a spade a spade.

And I sit there and kind of scratch my head and go, "I don't know how to contribute this conversation." Plus I'm already really anxious anyway, so it just feels really kind of, I'm not getting as much from it perhaps as I could do, and it's sometimes, I guess, frustrating from my side, but also just feels a bit weird.

Like, it feels like I could have had a very different conversation with perhaps a different group of people, but where do you go find those people? So-

Zoe: Yeah. It's funny, like, just going back to what you shared about the kind of like the reading out loud part. This is something so many of my participants talked about.

Like, I think pretty much every participant shared an experience of being in a small group where you're like, this person's reading, like you're reading two verses each, and that idea exactly as you described of being like, "Oh, where am I [00:07:00] reading? What's gonna come next?" And then not really managing to engage in home group 'cause you've been so focused on like what you're gonna be reading that you don't actually process any of the passage, so then none of the questions make sense.

And I love what you said about just like being in spaces where you feel like you can, like, have good conversations with people, and that can be really difficult to find. And sometimes it does feel quite forced. Um- Yeah. 

Krysia: And I guess for me, although this is a slightly sideways way of seeing fellowship in inverted commas, but almost the podcast in itself and engaging with stuff the center does is almost for me a more...

It might be more intellectual form of fellowship, but it provides that group to be able to pull things apart and discuss things perhaps in a way that I haven't found at the moment another space can do it 

Ian: That, and that's the thing about it. I mean, one of the, one of the tips I would give people is just broaden your understanding of what small groups or home groups can be and [00:08:00] what their engagement looks like.

'Cause so often they follow that pattern of reading a passage, reflecting on it, everyone reads a verse or two verses, right? And, and if you just change, e- I mean even if you wanna keep more or less that format the same, if you allow people to prepare, it's more autistic-friendly, right? So if you have some- you say, "This week th- this person is going to read," um, and you tell them, "This is the passage that you'll be reading," they have an opportunity to sort of read through it beforehand, make sure that they're comfortable reading it, that sort of thing.

If you know you're gearing a discussion around a certain topic, if you have questions planned as the leader and you can give those to people in advance so that they know what they're gonna be talking about, have an opportunity to sort of be thinking about this, formulate their thoughts a little bit, it lowers the bar for entry for autistic people who have difficulty processing in the moment, right?

Who don't necessarily, who, who, who are [00:09:00] balancing both information processing and social processing in a way that neurotypicals aren't necessarily. Um, and if I have that content already taken care of, then the social processing I can focus on, um, that makes the small group a little bit easier to access.

But also just broaden your understanding 'cause like you said, Krysia, um, I- often it's always personal experiential-type reflection, right? And that's not my engagement with the faith as a general rule, right? I, one of the ways I like to break this down for people is thinking about the difference between St.

Francis and St. Dominic, right? And Francis is very experiential, very mystical, very, uh, you know, a lot of people vibe with that or gravitate towards that . And Dominic was very academic, right? Like, he wanted to wrestle with big questions and, and engage with scholastic, um, theology.

And I'm not, neither one is better, but that's my approach, [00:10:00] right? And what I would be looking for in a small group is, is m- more akin to what people do with, like, a pub theology group or something like that. Like, let's talk about theological topics. Let's wrestle with the doctrine of God. Let's figure out what this means not necessarily for my experience personally, but for broader understanding of God and how that's applied in our lives.

And, and- Not that no groups do that, I'm not saying that, but most of my experience has been that experiential piece. Like, share something, share a point where this scripture touches in your life, and, like, that's not the way my brain works. No. Like, I don't have autobiographical materials at the ready, right?

Zoe: But also, like, beyond that, sometimes it's not comfortable to share those things in a group. Like, I think we've all had home group questions where it's, like, potential to have, like, reveal very, like, deep things that aren't necessarily what you feel comfortable sharing, and there can sometimes be a pressure to be like, "Oh, when's a [00:11:00] situation that this has happened?"

Actually, no, I don't wanna share that. I don't feel comfortable sharing that. I don't particularly wanna talk about that. And I think sometimes, like- When you've got the, like, your, like, more... Then, yeah, on the flip side of that, when you've got the slightly more, like, academic-y theological questions, you then get...

I mean, I've often felt like this when it's a question I feel like I've got the answer wrong or I need to find the right answer, and that's not necessarily helpful either. So I suppose, like, it's getting the balance between, like, allowing people to just come as they are and engage with the text, both, like, the experiential and the, like, slightly more theological.

But doing that in a way that is appreciative of every voice in the room, not just the ones who are super experiential or the ones who get every question right. And I think that's really difficult to do, I suppose. Like, yeah. 

Krysia: Yeah. And I guess also for me, just thinking about some of the spaces where I've found it- things [00:12:00] have worked in a non-small group setting is often where we're doing something alongside having those conversations.

So some people might bring their crochet with them. Some people will bring some, maybe some painting. And actually, I think for me, being able to have conversations whilst you do things would also help my anxiety significantly, and also take away some of that kind of social tax that you almost have to pay being a part of a small group in terms of what small talk do I make when I turn up and h- unless you, like, know people really well, like in Zoe's small group.

There might be people you're less familiar with or you vibe less with, but you like them, and you've got to still kind of do that kind of social dance. Whereas if we're grounding it in terms of, yeah, we're gonna come together, we're gonna talk about God. But we're also gonna sit and all make something together, or we're going to create a zine or a found poem and cut some magazines up and say what things mean to us.

And [00:13:00] also what this kind of might... Some of the words we make might mean in terms of bigger questions. That would have certainly made me a bit more comfortable than just everyone sitting around with a Bible on their lap kind of like, "Hmm, that's nice." Which I think sometimes, um, home groups and small groups can do, when actually we can do fellowship in lots of different ways that kind of take it away from reading and sitting and negotiating all that kind of social roundabout that we, we can play.

Zoe: Yeah. And I think that doesn't necessarily require to, like, completely shake things up and be like, "Right, we're gonna, like, transform the way we do small groups in our church." But what I think can be really interesting is, like, why not, if you're kind of thinking, oh, we do this sort of sit down with a Bible on the, like, lap sort of thing every week.

Why not just, like, try maybe, like, one week out of a month to mix things up a little bit and see how that's received and how that goes? I think it's like... I mean, we've, like- I suppose, like, small groups [00:14:00] are a really nice space. I always say, like, with my dyslexia research, small groups are a really helpful place to chat to dyslexic or neurodivergent people to find out what they're struggling with in church as a wider whole, and just to, like, have, like, more honest conversations in a safer space.

And I think that's true of, like, kind of experimenting with different things as well. Like, like you said, do, like, a found poem or, like, um, I don't know, like, sit with a jigsaw and do your Bible study. It's like that doesn't need to be, like, a complete transformation. It can just be, like, trying new things every so often and seeing, um, how people find that.

Krysia: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I guess also it would help perhaps with some of the bigger, more theological, meaty, beefy, academic things that some of us, for example, Ian and I really like to jostle with. It would almost take the load off of having to sit there and kind of think, "I don't know this." People don't know how to contribute.

Sometimes having something to do with your hands is really good if you're someone who's quite tactile or quite sensory [00:15:00] or, um, it can help you process. Some people just like to do things as they listen. I mean, I've known a church superintendent who at every single meeting she chairs, she brings her knitting and she knits the entire way through, as it helps her be able to manage the meeting better.

And I, I guess it's almost about bringing... part of bringing your time to bodies and brains into the room is kind of just playing with how we do things. 

Ian: I suppose something that we've not talked about that I'd be interested to hear, like, you- both your thoughts on this. I think sometimes, like, in churches, there's the expectation that if you're really involved in the church and there's home groups running, that you should be attending those home groups weekly.

And I can imagine that that can risk people feeling, like, shame or feeling, um, slightly like they're sticking out or not committed enough if for reasons related to neurodiversity, home groups are just not easy spaces or [00:16:00] are not, um, beneficial for them to be part of. And I just wonder, like, what... This is my assumption, so I'd be interested to know what your thoughts are on that and how people can maybe navigate those feelings if they feel that way.

Yeah, 

I think, I, I mean, I think a big part of the conflict comes, comes because I ... The, the truth is, small groups and small group discussion and that type of, uh, interaction really is one of the best ways of deepening faith, whatever that looks like for you. Or, or it can be, has the potential to be, right? So it really is good to be involved in groups like that if you can be.

But part of the, the reason that there's friction there is because not all of those groups are designed for all people, right? And if you're feeling shame about it, then the conflict is I n- I know or have been told that I should go to this, but it's a, it's a chore to do it [00:17:00] for some reason, right? That means that you're not in, you're probably not in the right small group, right?

Um, that, that this isn't an environment that really is doing what it's supposed to be doing. Like, it's supposed to be challenging. It's not supposed to be a chore. And if it is, then, then your small group is probably not right for you, right? Um, and if you can't find a small group that doesn't feel like a chore, then maybe the small groups in your setting aren't set up for people like you.

And, and that's- I don't wanna say that's okay, right? But it's not a, it's not, it doesn't reflect poorly on you personally. It's not your shortcoming. Um, but, but the, uh, uh, you know, we also, we also have to recognize that, yeah, there is gonna be a, um, an aspect to this, especially for autistic people, it is social interaction.

There is a, it, it, it is a demand, right? And the idea that I have to be there every single week without fail doesn't allow for the fact that maybe I've [00:18:00] had a lot more social demands this week and need to sort of, uh, you know, say no. And that, I think, speaks to that, w- we've talked about this before, that a lot of neurotypicals say something is a rule and don't actually mean it's a steadfast 100% of the time rule.

And for autistic people in particular, and maybe neurodivergent folks more broadly, if you tell us it's a rule, it's a rule, right? And the idea that I should be there if I can be doesn't mean I have to be there 100% of the time or I'm falling down on the job. And that, I think, is true for neurotypical people.

If you go to a small group, it's not 100% attendance every single week without fail. People have stuff going on. So the idea that I can't ever say no to this isn't a healthy standard to hold myself to, and I need to sort of let myself off the hook. Like, it's good for me to be there. It's helpful. It's, it's, it's edifying.

But I don't, it's not a hard and [00:19:00] fast rule that I have to be there every single week. But also, this is meant to be edifying, and if I don't find it that, if I find this is a chore or something else on my to-do list, then it's not doing what it's supposed to be doing, and that's not my personal failing.

Krysia: Yeah, almost just it, it is rather than anything personal or anyone's fault. It almost is just part of the way the world knocks about, given that we're a neurodiverse in terms of the true definition. We're having both neurotypical and neurodivergent people knocking around together. That kind of way the world works in that sense.

Zoe: Yeah. And I'm wondering, like, kind of, because I think, like, you're absolutely right, Ian, that if it's, like, a space that is taxing and, like, you know, like, not ... If you're already putting a lot of energy into your day-to-day work, and then suddenly you've got to go into, like, a very [00:20:00] social setting that can have questions that you maybe don't understand or don't feel like you can answer, that is not ne- I think there is grace in that to be like, "No, that's not a space that I'm comfortable in right now," or, "Don't feel like that's a helpful space," or, "It's gonna benefit me in any way," even if it's not necessarily just a negative experience.

But I wonder, like, 'cause I think it's true that, like, it's helpful just to step back, but then I think it's also, like, a helpful question to ask, like, what can then, like, home group leaders or small group leaders do if they notice someone feeling like that? Maybe the answer we've already addressed that is to mix things up a little bit.

Um, but yeah, I don't know if there's, like, any other, like, practical things that people can do just to make those, if you maybe notice someone who's stepped back from home group and, yeah, like, what can you then do, I suppose, to be helpful? Not to be like, "Oh, let's get them back," but just to be a nice person, I suppose.[00:21:00] 

Ian: Yeah, it's, I, I mean, it's a tricky question. I run into this if I, you know, as a pastor in a, in a congregational setting, I run into this when I don't see someone in church for a few weeks, right? To what extent... And it, it's, it's difficult as a clergy person, as an authority, as a small group leader, it's difficult because any questions that you ask are potentially gonna be fraught, right?

You can't control how that's going to be interpreted, right? Is this just following up, or is this pressure? Is this putting a finger on the scale like, "Hey, I'm finger-wagging. You haven't been here. You need to be doing this"? Um, so I think, you know, sometimes it can be, if you're the group leader and you notice this, maybe have somebody who's not in authority ask, right?

Um, because there's less pressure. There's, it's, it's less of a, of a, of a laden question if someone else who just happens to be part of the group asks. Um, but also asking not just, "Hey, w- [00:22:00] why weren't you there?" But, "Is there, i- is this working? Is there a way that would, would facilitate your engagement? Uh, is there something missing or something about this that is, that is difficult or that is, that isn't working for you?

Um, and is there a way of, of lowering that bar for engagement for you? Is there a way that we could, that we could make this easier?" Um, I, I think it's worth asking. You can't always expect people to do, to have the answer at their fingertips, but, but at least if you're asking, you're showing, "We care about you and your experience."

Um, and if it's not the authority person asking, then it's less likely to feel like chiding or scolding. 

Krysia: And I guess also that-

Part of home groups is coming together and talking to people. And if there are settings perhaps it's happening to a bit differently, [00:23:00] equipping people to know that that's also good, and that's also a small group. And, you know, it's fine if people get fed, in inverted commas, in different ways. Um, so ... And I guess also if you wanted to be able to, to find out more

and more generally, could almost ... I don't want to say have a feedback session, 'cause that sounds really formal, and academic, and evaluation-based. But checking in with people and each other, checking between, between people as a culture of care rather than accountability could actually be a really useful tool in terms of, well, how are you finding home group?

Normalizing those questions and normalizing people going, "Yeah, that worked really well. I really liked the week we did it, we all sat round and played with a puzzle and talked." Or, "Actually, I really liked this bit or that bit was a bit more challenging for me." So a normalizing those conversations where we can say where things work and things don't work, I think [00:24:00] is really good 

Zoe: Yeah, I really like that.

And I think sometimes that comes from, like, the leader being vulnerable. Like, sometimes if there's a question, like, a slightly different point, but like, if there's a question I don't understand, I'll be like, "I don't understand this question. Can someone else, like, read it for me and just explain, because I don't think this makes sense?"

And then it's like having spaces where you can actually critique the content as well and, like, be honest about that I think is helpful. But yeah, I hope this has been an interesting conversation for people to listen to. And,, as always, if you have any questions, you can message us at autismtheology on X or Instagram, or you can send us an email at cat@abdn.ac.uk.

Even if it's just to say hi, we'd love to hear from you

Ian: and don't forget to join us for our July episode where I will be talking with Mati Bulacia Bortnik, uh, who is a rabbinical school student, about autistic and neurodivergent engagement with Jewish sacred [00:25:00] texts.

Zoe: Thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology Podcast. If you have any questions for us or just want to say hi, please email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on Twitter @autismtheology.