WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:48.759 --> 00:00:50.509 Cheryl Johnson: Hello and welcome everybody. 00:00:50.509 --> 00:00:54.009 Today I have Jamie Mann with the Amaryllis Project. 00:00:54.479 --> 00:00:55.519 She's from Canada. 00:00:57.995 --> 00:01:03.875 We're such good neighbors that it's sometimes it's hard to in my opinion draw a line between us. 00:01:05.655 --> 00:01:06.175 I agree. 00:01:06.625 --> 00:01:08.245 I think a lot of the culture is the same. 00:01:08.245 --> 00:01:11.775 And since we're going to be talking a lot about culture today, I think that's really important. 00:01:12.275 --> 00:01:19.235 I reached out to Jamie because she and I have a shared passion, I guess, for the concept of conscious leadership. 00:01:19.565 --> 00:01:24.665 But we have discussed a little bit about how it's kind of a buzzword and, you know, what does that mean? 00:01:24.685 --> 00:01:27.225 So I'll let her take a few minutes to introduce herself. 00:01:27.255 --> 00:01:32.346 And then from there, she can just jump into what her So I'm going to start with you, Cheryl, and then I'm going to turn 00:01:32.346 --> 00:01:34.412 Jamie Mann: it over to you to talk about what your idea of conscious leadership is. 00:01:34.412 --> 00:01:34.560 Okay. 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:34.855 Thanks, Cheryl. 00:01:34.895 --> 00:01:36.715 Oh, I didn't even, I got so excited, Cheryl. 00:01:36.715 --> 00:01:38.015 I didn't even introduce myself. 00:01:38.015 --> 00:01:38.935 I just realized that 00:01:38.935 --> 00:01:45.895 Cheryl Johnson: I was just, I forgot you did too, because I'm like, I'm formulating all these questions I have in mind. 00:01:46.610 --> 00:01:47.020 I'm already 00:01:47.050 --> 00:01:47.940 Jamie Mann: thinking about it. 00:01:47.940 --> 00:01:48.240 Yeah. 00:01:48.240 --> 00:01:50.300 Oh my gosh. 00:01:52.010 --> 00:01:52.740 Introduce yourself. 00:01:53.250 --> 00:01:53.640 Okay. 00:01:53.810 --> 00:01:54.180 Thanks. 00:01:54.320 --> 00:01:55.440 I'm doing it backwards. 00:01:55.440 --> 00:01:57.370 I just never follow instructions. 00:01:57.370 --> 00:01:58.030 Sorry, Cheryl. 00:01:58.100 --> 00:02:02.690 I you know, I'm a partner in a commercial construction company in Canada. 00:02:03.455 --> 00:02:08.085 Actually, my business partner and I are actually life partners as well. 00:02:08.085 --> 00:02:11.295 So we work together, raise our kids together, the whole thing. 00:02:11.645 --> 00:02:13.975 And my background is psychology actually. 00:02:13.975 --> 00:02:23.145 So for the last number of years in our construction business, my interest was always, you know, how do we create a better workplace? 00:02:23.155 --> 00:02:25.595 How do we create engagement? 00:02:25.665 --> 00:02:33.595 How do we have people that we work with that feel like they belong and they're not a number in a corporation or something like that? 00:02:34.005 --> 00:02:39.605 And so it's always that side of the business that always very much interested me. 00:02:39.885 --> 00:02:41.495 And so the last number of years. 00:02:42.010 --> 00:02:52.470 I have actually been doing separate work through the Amaryllis project, which is a leadership advisory speaking and consulting business that I do. 00:02:52.820 --> 00:03:03.590 And so I kind of split my time between the two and then I think I was just telling you prior to us hitting record that I'm doing my master's in the psychology of leadership through Penn State. 00:03:03.590 --> 00:03:08.600 So I, I just, I've always really been interested in what we can do. 00:03:08.920 --> 00:03:11.540 to be a little bit better than we were yesterday. 00:03:11.940 --> 00:03:19.340 I would say, you know, conscious leadership is something in my work, I kind of refer to it as connected leadership. 00:03:19.340 --> 00:03:24.340 It's this idea that if you want to picture leadership as, I like imagery. 00:03:24.550 --> 00:03:26.420 So I kind of think of an iceberg, right? 00:03:26.420 --> 00:03:28.850 When we use the word conscious, it's are we awake? 00:03:29.470 --> 00:03:33.250 And when I think of an iceberg, there is so much under the water. 00:03:33.250 --> 00:03:42.580 And so somebody who is, Committed to conscious leadership or being connected has to be aware of a whole lot of things. 00:03:42.580 --> 00:03:47.550 First of all, aware of what they bring to any situation. 00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:59.180 Aware of their preferences, their biases how they come across, how they can tweak their behaviour a little bit better to get a more effective outcome. 00:03:59.180 --> 00:04:04.515 And it's this idea that there's always Something more we can learn. 00:04:04.725 --> 00:04:10.945 So there's definitely a real commitment to continuous learning and being curious. 00:04:11.045 --> 00:04:18.415 And I think, you know, that's why it resonates with me so much, because there is always something more to learn. 00:04:18.855 --> 00:04:30.420 And I think one of the things in leadership, and when I work with companies, I notice that sometimes when that is missing, that Desire to learn. 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:40.280 That's when we kind of lose our influence and our credibility and really our ability to work well with others is when we lose that. 00:04:41.730 --> 00:04:42.240 Cheryl Johnson: Thank you. 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:48.880 I think some of the things that jumped out to me and I'll get to this in a little bit is the idea of continuous learning and. 00:04:49.765 --> 00:04:55.435 Being able to connect better with those that we work with my own personal background. 00:04:55.895 --> 00:04:59.365 I come from I'm an independent consultant have literally worked with. 00:05:00.970 --> 00:05:12.370 I say hundreds, it seems like hundreds, but at least a hundred or more companies in my career and whether it be, you know, government agencies, small business, large businesses, you know, fortune 500 companies, whatever. 00:05:12.880 --> 00:05:23.170 I have seen firsthand a lot of different cultures and some of them more so than others, but we do have a shared background in the world of construction. 00:05:24.090 --> 00:05:24.400 Okay. 00:05:24.870 --> 00:05:29.650 My family is all, you know, they've built houses, they're more on the residential side. 00:05:30.160 --> 00:05:34.700 And my son right now works as an electrician in the in the commercial space. 00:05:34.870 --> 00:05:35.160 But, 00:05:35.254 --> 00:05:39.974 especially, you sure have much more hands on and practical experience in this than I do. 00:05:40.484 --> 00:05:51.424 But my experience, and my brother happened to work also before he retired in a commercial capacity, you know, in the electrical world. 00:05:51.984 --> 00:06:00.184 And In all the years that he worked, you know, he'd call me a lot of times and there was a lot of frustration because it seemed to be a toxic workplace construction. 00:06:00.224 --> 00:06:10.204 There's just such stress and the demands and quite often they would bring, you know, they would hire young people or people who didn't have. 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:13.529 The requisite skills, they just hire them as laborers. 00:06:13.529 --> 00:06:15.839 And so there's always a really high turnover rate. 00:06:16.219 --> 00:06:33.579 And rather than take the time and to be fair, you know, in the construction world, there's such a small profit margin and, you know, you're so, I don't know what Not you personally, but yeah, I get the industry is so, I don't know the word I'm looking for. 00:06:33.939 --> 00:06:41.519 It's and my dad worked as an industrial electrician and he worked in a lot of different building large, he built a neck or didn't build. 00:06:42.169 --> 00:06:47.629 He designed the blueprints for the electrical on an Exxon plant in Wyoming. 00:06:48.489 --> 00:06:53.799 And so, you know, they've worked at all different levels, but they just don't ever seem to have the time to develop talent. 00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:55.569 So there's high turnover rate. 00:06:55.649 --> 00:06:58.099 There's people frustrated. 00:06:58.109 --> 00:07:00.239 You didn't know how to do this right. 00:07:00.269 --> 00:07:04.399 We don't have the time to teach you, but we don't have the money to hire, you know, anyway. 00:07:04.709 --> 00:07:04.979 You know, 00:07:05.039 --> 00:07:14.869 Jamie Mann: yeah, no, there's a lot of moving parts and there's a lot of things that are happening actually in the industry that's caught like kind of exacerbating some of that stress. 00:07:14.869 --> 00:07:18.069 So, you know, there's you know, the stats in Canada. 00:07:18.069 --> 00:07:22.209 I'm not sure of the exact stats in the US, but there is a lot of. 00:07:22.724 --> 00:07:38.084 Seasoned trades people, right, that have been retiring and that are set to retire in the next five, 10 years, which is putting a huge squeeze on finding talent and getting talent up to speed to those levels those skill levels. 00:07:38.084 --> 00:07:45.904 And so that's one of the things that's happening when we think about you know, even just the complexities about getting the right materials. 00:07:46.299 --> 00:07:53.349 To where they need to be on time without delays or plant shutdowns or tariffs. 00:07:53.489 --> 00:07:53.949 Yeah. 00:07:53.949 --> 00:07:56.359 You know, I sorry I just had to whisper that. 00:07:56.649 --> 00:07:59.719 But there's so many things happening that, that. 00:08:00.114 --> 00:08:03.024 Can get in the way of a project running smoothly. 00:08:03.224 --> 00:08:08.654 And at the same time you know, where I live, we have like very extreme seasons. 00:08:08.664 --> 00:08:12.714 So when it's warm out and we can get in the ground, there is a massive push. 00:08:13.474 --> 00:08:19.877 And you know, unless the weather is so bad we physically can't work, we're working. 00:08:19.877 --> 00:08:24.294 And so that also compresses timelines. 00:08:24.294 --> 00:08:26.834 And people still want what they want when they want it, right? 00:08:26.844 --> 00:08:28.994 So, there's a lot happening. 00:08:29.874 --> 00:08:45.214 And I think that the pandemic obviously didn't help any of us as far as our just everything like our coping skills, our feeling of connecting, being connected to other people, like just feeling like you're part of a team. 00:08:45.224 --> 00:08:48.784 Like it really kind of was challenging for all people. 00:08:49.284 --> 00:08:51.594 And I think that there's a lot of. 00:08:51.974 --> 00:08:53.494 stress that's coming out. 00:08:53.544 --> 00:08:55.994 You know, trying to get new people up to speed. 00:08:56.634 --> 00:08:58.754 There's the pressure to get the stuff done. 00:08:58.764 --> 00:09:00.644 There's problems getting materials. 00:09:00.654 --> 00:09:02.914 There's you know, a lot happening. 00:09:02.914 --> 00:09:10.314 And some of the simple things, I think, is what we forget often. 00:09:10.584 --> 00:09:12.554 The things that actually make a difference. 00:09:13.009 --> 00:09:51.799 In our workplaces, in our leadership and I do believe that leadership is something we all need to think about, whether or not we have a title or we have some sort of seniority level or not, because I mean, when I think about just construction sites, whether I am a Driving the dump truck and scrapping out a job site, whether I'm the person pushing a broom and making small cuts in something, or whether I'm the person running the job, essentially, we all have impact on one another and the impact we have on each other is far greater than we need. 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:54.359 give ourselves credit for. 00:09:55.389 --> 00:10:09.359 And so how I show up on a site or in a workplace and how I treat each person has a huge impact on how that job site or that workplace functions. 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:22.559 And just like bad manners or rudeness is contagious, which is research backed, the same thing is also true about, you know, behaving with respect and civility and treating others with dignity. 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:24.309 That is also true. 00:10:24.609 --> 00:10:25.799 has a ripple effect. 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:33.419 And so conscious leadership going back there is thinking what is my impact? 00:10:33.509 --> 00:10:40.139 What is my actual impact without relying on assumptions or patting myself on the back and going, no, I'm good. 00:10:40.139 --> 00:10:40.719 I'm good. 00:10:40.979 --> 00:10:42.239 I get along with everybody. 00:10:42.239 --> 00:10:43.799 I'm nice people like me. 00:10:44.069 --> 00:10:52.649 And that might be true, but to always be able to question, okay, what are my biases, as assumptions, do I. 00:10:53.539 --> 00:10:57.949 Kind of hold my preferences as more important than the other people I work with. 00:10:58.189 --> 00:11:00.069 How do I collaborate with people? 00:11:00.259 --> 00:11:01.999 Am I truly respectful? 00:11:02.329 --> 00:11:04.539 Do I make people feel like they belong? 00:11:04.829 --> 00:11:09.099 Or, unintentionally, do I sort of make people feel like they're outsiders? 00:11:09.389 --> 00:11:13.679 Because it's the feeling it's that is going to build our workplace culture. 00:11:13.904 --> 00:11:26.004 Where people like coming to work and when they leave at the end of the day, they don't go, Oh, thank God I have, you know, 24 hours till I'm back at this hellhole. 00:11:26.934 --> 00:11:28.474 That's what we don't want, right? 00:11:30.124 --> 00:11:34.794 Cheryl Johnson: Yeah, you want people that when they wake up in the morning, kind of look forward to going to work and, you know. 00:11:35.504 --> 00:11:42.874 Having worked at numerous places, there have been plenty of them that I wake up in the morning and went, Oh, do I have to face this today? 00:11:43.634 --> 00:11:44.244 And then there's others. 00:11:44.244 --> 00:11:44.664 Am I going to 00:11:44.664 --> 00:11:45.654 Jamie Mann: get through this? 00:11:45.744 --> 00:11:56.334 Cheryl Johnson: Yeah, and it's amazing to me how much more productive I am and my work product is so much better when I wake up in the morning and I go, wow, I'm excited to be there. 00:11:56.864 --> 00:11:59.774 And I think this applies to both the construction world and. 00:12:00.949 --> 00:12:09.439 I mentioned when we were talking earlier that I, even though I live in the United States and I was working remotely, I worked for a company out of Kitchener, which is by Toronto. 00:12:10.609 --> 00:12:26.509 And I was, it was probably one of, one of my favorite, I mean, I've had several favorite jobs, but this one in particular, the reason it was my favorite was because as soon as I started, they assigned me a mentor. 00:12:28.789 --> 00:12:31.219 And a mentor is nothing more than a leader. 00:12:32.774 --> 00:12:43.154 And she kind of taught me the ropes and, you know, how to navigate, you know, kind of some pitfalls to avoid and where to find information and who to go to when I had questions. 00:12:43.514 --> 00:12:51.854 And when I got, so because I had a really good mentor I got assigned a meaningful project right out of the gate, which was really important. 00:12:51.854 --> 00:12:53.184 And. 00:12:53.494 --> 00:13:12.694 You know, I did it under her guidance and things and so I think you, you brought up something that I thought was really valuable is the idea that being a leader is not necessarily tied to a position or seniority, it's based on, you know, am I in a position to influence someone else? 00:13:13.184 --> 00:13:13.354 Right. 00:13:13.734 --> 00:13:16.724 How is my influence impacting those around me? 00:13:17.104 --> 00:13:19.434 I know that my son has been working for. 00:13:20.474 --> 00:13:23.974 Probably 10 years, maybe longer, as an electrician. 00:13:24.744 --> 00:13:28.274 They've tried to promote him to be a project manager, he hated it. 00:13:28.594 --> 00:13:33.364 Then they tried promoting him to be a foreman, he hated it, he didn't want to. 00:13:33.694 --> 00:13:37.484 But he's the one that always gets assigned to the newbies. 00:13:37.964 --> 00:13:38.724 He loves it. 00:13:39.224 --> 00:13:39.784 Right. 00:13:40.354 --> 00:13:42.684 And, you know, he's I'm not a leader. 00:13:42.684 --> 00:13:56.394 I'm just, you know, I'm just like the person that nobody else wants to show these, you know, greenies how to do the job, you know, and once again, how to navigate the politics that come with every job and everything. 00:13:56.734 --> 00:14:06.614 And so I think when we step back and we look at the fact that we are all leaders in our own right because all of us have some kind of influence over someone else. 00:14:08.419 --> 00:14:20.239 That it then becomes more imperative for us to really, like you said, examine ourselves and look inward and say, okay, what, how am I influencing someone else? 00:14:20.909 --> 00:14:21.249 Jamie Mann: Right. 00:14:21.669 --> 00:14:25.329 Cheryl Johnson: And not just one person, but you know, it could be multiple people in different capacities. 00:14:25.329 --> 00:14:26.299 So, I don't know. 00:14:26.909 --> 00:14:32.119 That kind of goes back to, so I'll circle around here, back to, you know, learning and development. 00:14:32.119 --> 00:14:34.899 If I'm going to look inward, then I need to examine. 00:14:35.594 --> 00:14:44.014 Whatever I examine and come out with, I need to go, Oh, what do I need to learn to improve my leadership skills and be a better person of influence? 00:14:44.244 --> 00:14:45.664 So I'll let you run with that. 00:14:46.164 --> 00:14:46.494 Jamie Mann: Right. 00:14:46.494 --> 00:14:46.794 Yeah. 00:14:46.794 --> 00:15:03.644 And the thing that, you know, I always say to people too, is When we're committed to building our awareness, learning how we can be a little bit better, a little bit more effective, you know, we have to get comfortable with gathering feedback. 00:15:04.014 --> 00:15:08.154 So, you know, the interesting thing too is when we think about self awareness. 00:15:08.719 --> 00:15:16.769 There's research showing that, you know, most of us, it's 85 percent or something like that, or even higher, say, you know, we're self aware. 00:15:17.149 --> 00:15:21.209 But the research actually shows it's more like 10 to 15 percent actually are. 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:27.529 So, the key here is we can build our own self awareness, which is still very important. 00:15:27.769 --> 00:15:34.689 But because it's so tricky to do in a vacuum, I do need to get comfortable gathering feedback. 00:15:34.914 --> 00:15:43.524 From the people in my network, the people in my workplace, the people in my leadership circle or whatever and have both of those pieces. 00:15:43.804 --> 00:15:54.064 So I'm still doing the inner work and I'm still being open to considering my impact and how I am and all this, but I'm also coupling that with out trusted outside feedback. 00:15:54.394 --> 00:15:58.884 And when I take those two together, I really build a solid. 00:15:59.129 --> 00:16:05.479 awareness of truly what I'm bringing and where my gaps are, my learning opportunities. 00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:12.319 And when we get feedback from people, the other thing to remember is, of course, we don't have to take it all. 00:16:12.479 --> 00:16:13.639 That's the other thing. 00:16:13.839 --> 00:16:16.299 That's why sometimes people are scared of feedback. 00:16:16.509 --> 00:16:18.159 Well, for a couple reasons, right? 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:21.709 Because our egos can be very sensitive sometimes. 00:16:22.139 --> 00:16:26.409 But also it's that idea like, Oh, but if I get the feedback, I have to take it. 00:16:26.409 --> 00:16:28.159 And I don't know if I want to take it. 00:16:28.429 --> 00:16:29.359 And that's a choice. 00:16:29.359 --> 00:16:32.399 We don't have to take all of the feedback we get. 00:16:32.669 --> 00:16:42.639 We do have a choice to look at it critically with a critical eye and make the decision, which pieces really resonate and make sense to me. 00:16:42.969 --> 00:16:46.629 And which pieces maybe aren't mine to take on. 00:16:47.209 --> 00:16:49.549 Because again, like we're humans are messy. 00:16:49.839 --> 00:17:13.349 Sometimes I know, you know, in the past I've received feedback that maybe I took really, you know, one example, actually, which may be other women in leadership or other And, well really, lots of us might resonate with, but you know, there's certain things that perhaps we are supposed to be and not supposed to be, depending on who we are. 00:17:13.649 --> 00:17:45.789 So I like pink, I look like a girly girl I like sparkly things, and so I remember You know years ago somebody kind of really harshly kind of said you're bossy and I was like ah and that really struck me because at the time that was years ago And I thought bossy that's horrible, but then you know really looking inward Looking with perspective and a critical eye, you know, that had nothing to do with me. 00:17:46.049 --> 00:17:55.329 That was somebody who had a perception of what I should be based on how I look, or perhaps what a woman should be based on all sorts of things. 00:17:55.739 --> 00:17:59.234 Because we never Being bossy isn't a bad thing. 00:17:59.244 --> 00:18:02.254 We never say to a man, you're bossy, and that's a bad thing. 00:18:02.644 --> 00:18:16.884 And so, even being able to have a critical eye to look at what's happening around us, what are the biases that exist do I want to take that feedback on as my own, or is that coming from somebody else's perception or their bias? 00:18:17.214 --> 00:18:21.474 And, you know, that alone, I didn't just dismiss because I didn't want to think about it. 00:18:21.474 --> 00:18:24.544 I kind of was like, let's look at all the evidence. 00:18:24.824 --> 00:18:26.254 Let's look at all the proof. 00:18:26.744 --> 00:18:30.454 What other feedback have I received in my life? 00:18:30.844 --> 00:18:33.824 Do I know the people giving me the feedback? 00:18:33.844 --> 00:18:35.314 Do I feel they know me? 00:18:35.604 --> 00:18:39.354 And so taking like all of that, being like critical about it. 00:18:39.354 --> 00:18:44.284 I don't want to hold that feedback and feel bad about it if it's not really accurate. 00:18:44.764 --> 00:18:55.494 And so when I work with people, and sometimes we do get feedback that lands really heavy In our guts and sits with us and it's well, hold on, let's just, how true is that? 00:18:55.494 --> 00:18:56.614 Let's look at the proof. 00:18:56.884 --> 00:19:00.404 Let's look at, let's look at all the other pieces of information. 00:19:00.844 --> 00:19:11.604 And I regularly kind of refer to the need for us to be like investigators, whether or not it's leadership or just in our families or how we connect with our friends. 00:19:11.764 --> 00:19:16.974 Let's be investigators because we all come to the table with our own stuff. 00:19:17.644 --> 00:19:23.304 And so, Being a little bit more aware of, how true is it? 00:19:23.554 --> 00:19:28.714 You know, like just, we don't have to take everything on and have it kind of impact us negatively. 00:19:29.174 --> 00:19:36.784 Cause just like it feels great when we get good feedback, I think it's also important to question that also. 00:19:37.394 --> 00:19:59.604 Because we can get in a sort of leadership you know, dark zone of just not being aware is when we have people around us always complimenting us and giving us Positive feedback that maybe is inaccurate either So it's really important to look at all the feedback we get as an investigator. 00:19:59.624 --> 00:20:09.139 So with an investigator's eye Because that's the only way we can truly build our competencies and our skill sets accurately is when we do that. 00:20:10.309 --> 00:20:22.589 Cheryl Johnson: Yeah, I like that holistic approach and I, things that kind of came to my mind as you were talking is sometimes, and my husband actually has taught me this one, is that People don't always choose the right word. 00:20:23.369 --> 00:20:23.759 True. 00:20:24.309 --> 00:20:29.089 And you know, I can tell you right now, I don't care if you're a male or a female. 00:20:29.159 --> 00:20:34.039 If you're bossy, chances are I'm not going to respond well to bossy. 00:20:35.589 --> 00:20:47.769 And sometimes, you know, we may be acting in a way that The person conveying that message couldn't think of a different word at the moment that was possibly a little bit more accurate. 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:51.039 And so I think we'll ask for clarification. 00:20:51.419 --> 00:20:56.329 Yeah, you know, they'll be like, okay, well, if that's the case then. 00:20:57.354 --> 00:20:59.984 What can I do to communicate more effectively with you? 00:20:59.984 --> 00:21:02.554 What is what's a better way of communicating with you? 00:21:02.874 --> 00:21:06.904 Because, you know, I'm sure we all go back to when we were kids or whatever. 00:21:06.904 --> 00:21:12.414 And our bossy parents, because yeah, if we had good parents, we had bossy parents. 00:21:12.754 --> 00:21:13.234 Yes. 00:21:13.314 --> 00:21:13.654 Right. 00:21:13.964 --> 00:21:14.234 Right. 00:21:15.874 --> 00:21:22.474 But as soon as my mom would, you know, go do the dishes, she always used to say, I can just see the hair on the back of your neck stand up. 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:28.169 And it would be, you know, Hey, the dishes need done. 00:21:28.179 --> 00:21:29.429 Do you mind going and doing them? 00:21:29.429 --> 00:21:30.529 And I'd be like, Oh, okay. 00:21:30.949 --> 00:21:31.239 You know? 00:21:31.809 --> 00:21:36.489 So I think that type of communication is helpful. 00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:42.269 And another thing came to my mind as you were talking was I'm into all kinds of things, but human design is one of them. 00:21:42.269 --> 00:21:49.344 And one of my profile is what they call a projector, which is the Total opposite of what a projector, in my opinion, would be. 00:21:49.344 --> 00:21:52.734 I don't know how they, once again, talking about language, how they labeled that one. 00:21:53.204 --> 00:21:57.554 Because a projector typically will sit back and wait to be invited. 00:21:58.619 --> 00:21:58.939 Right. 00:21:59.379 --> 00:22:14.129 And, you know, because I'm that type of personality, naturally, people think, oh, well, you're not a leader because you don't lead, you don't go out in front and say here, and it took me a long time as an independent consultant, you know, you typically get hired. 00:22:14.144 --> 00:22:38.709 Because they don't have the subject matter expertise in house or they need additional bodies or whatever, you know, and because of that, a lot of times, especially early on in a project, I would be brought in and my first inclination is to sit back, take notes, listen to people, find out, you know, what's currently been happening, why is the project where it's at, who are the different personalities, who are the different people and the roles they play. 00:22:39.379 --> 00:22:44.719 And somebody came up to me one day and they're like, we didn't hire you just to sit there and take notes. 00:22:44.719 --> 00:22:46.149 We could have hired a note taker. 00:22:46.149 --> 00:22:51.279 And I was like, I've only been here one day. 00:22:52.539 --> 00:22:55.069 Jamie Mann: Yeah, get in my bearings, get in my bearings. 00:22:55.359 --> 00:23:01.549 Well, and that's interesting too, because that makes me think of you know, I like all types of leadership assessments. 00:23:01.899 --> 00:23:12.669 I very frequently work with Gallup Strengths Finder and one of the things there is, you know, one of their pillars of strengths is the influencing strengths. 00:23:13.049 --> 00:23:23.139 And so, you know, I know in my own case, when I did that assessment many years ago, my influencing strengths are lower. 00:23:23.494 --> 00:23:27.264 And I remember having that feeling like, well, how am I actually a leader? 00:23:27.264 --> 00:23:43.394 If all my influencing strengths are not my strengths yikes, I guess I'm not a leader, but what it really points to is that we manage to accomplish things all in a different fashion. 00:23:43.734 --> 00:23:51.694 And so in the sense of, you know, Gallup strengths is okay, well, all the other strengths that I have all work together. 00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:54.429 to work to influence and lead. 00:23:54.749 --> 00:24:10.649 So just because perhaps I'm not a, let's call it a traditional leader of, you know, giving orders and, you know, bossing people around and stuff like that doesn't mean, you know, there's no capability to lead and influence. 00:24:10.839 --> 00:24:12.499 It's just a different style. 00:24:12.649 --> 00:24:15.839 Just like what you're saying, right, in human design. 00:24:16.219 --> 00:24:18.519 There's different ways to lead. 00:24:18.769 --> 00:24:31.934 And one of the interesting things that What I'm super interested in is the idea of how leadership is affected by what people think a real leader is. 00:24:32.634 --> 00:24:40.974 You know, do I take somebody seriously and see them as a leader if they come across different than my ideal picture of a leader? 00:24:41.254 --> 00:24:45.249 And realistically, the id I'll use, you know, air quotes. 00:24:45.249 --> 00:24:53.579 The ideal picture of a leader is, you know, the traditional middle aged dude probably most people would say white dude. 00:24:53.979 --> 00:25:00.569 And that traditional style of leading from many years ago isn't actually what's most effective today. 00:25:00.929 --> 00:25:08.369 And when we think about, you know, all the young folks coming into the workforce and what they're looking for, that they don't resonate with that type of leader. 00:25:08.729 --> 00:25:28.469 And that's why conscious leadership being more authentic, I mean the whole arm of authentic leadership research is really interesting, but how to connect with people as a human, you still have expectations, you still influence, you still directly communicate, hold people accountable, like that all still happens, but it's just packaged differently. 00:25:28.829 --> 00:25:40.724 And if we're unable to connect with people, we're really at a disadvantage when it comes to leading because people aren't responding the same way as they did years ago. 00:25:42.234 --> 00:26:04.259 Cheryl Johnson: Yeah and I did a lot of research in 2010 2011 on this whole, because I'm a boomer and I come from that generation and and I was working with a lot of Who were at the time millennials, I guess there's two millennials, but I mean, you know what I mean, and I get the idea and it was like, okay, how, and because I did a lot of onboarding programs, I created a ton of onboarding programs. 00:26:04.539 --> 00:26:08.629 It was really important to understand these different generational differences. 00:26:09.159 --> 00:26:19.379 And I found that really interesting and how do they respond and a book that just came to mind while you were talking was, it's been out for, I don't know. 00:26:20.239 --> 00:26:22.429 15 maybe even 20 years it's called quiet. 00:26:22.539 --> 00:26:29.229 I don't know if you've ever heard but Yes, I mean it's like this thick and i'm like, yeah, right that much about quiet, you know, 00:26:29.329 --> 00:26:29.759 Jamie Mann: right? 00:26:30.159 --> 00:26:42.244 Cheryl Johnson: And it really resonated with me because I tend to be quiet and I tend i'm like If you give me a personality test, my kids joke that literally I'll score 99 percent on the introvert scale. 00:26:42.254 --> 00:26:42.574 Yes, 00:26:42.784 --> 00:26:43.234 Jamie Mann: right. 00:26:43.494 --> 00:26:46.904 Cheryl Johnson: And they're like, introverts don't get up and do public speaking, but you do. 00:26:47.054 --> 00:26:50.594 Introverts don't sit on podcasts and talk to people, but you do. 00:26:51.064 --> 00:26:52.044 Right, right. 00:26:52.244 --> 00:27:10.104 You've got, you know, a completely different view and then Julian Stodd out of the UK, he's done quite a bit of research and on what he calls quiet leadership and I'm really fascinated by his work and I really like what he's put out there because I have found that. 00:27:10.784 --> 00:27:17.394 Once again, a leader is just a person of influence and your influence can have a ripple effect. 00:27:17.724 --> 00:27:27.134 And then if I got into all my reading lately, but you know, David Hawking's has written a book called Power Versus Force, which Once again is a book all it's very heavy. 00:27:27.134 --> 00:27:56.827 I wouldn't highly recommend it unless you're into heavy reading quiet It's much easier to read but you know, he has these levels of consciousness that he goes through And as you get to the highest levels of consciousness, you know, they refer to the few people throughout history, and I mean like thousands of years, that reach that level are people like Jesus, people like Gandhi, people like, you know, And yet, When Jesus was alive, he was not known as a leader. 00:27:56.827 --> 00:28:08.507 As a matter of fact, he was known as a heretic, you know, and he wasn't a person that was at the Sanhedrin, and he wasn't, you know, in all these places where all of the lack of a better word, rich and famous people were, you know, kind of thing. 00:28:08.507 --> 00:28:09.207 Right, right. 00:28:09.697 --> 00:28:10.427 Fancy people. 00:28:10.687 --> 00:28:14.507 Yeah, he went down into the everyday people. 00:28:15.239 --> 00:28:20.429 These people have had some of the most profound influence over time. 00:28:20.913 --> 00:28:21.163 Yeah. 00:28:21.543 --> 00:28:22.723 Maybe in their lifetime. 00:28:23.263 --> 00:28:28.259 They didn't, you know, cause this wonderful ripple effect we would all like to have. 00:28:29.524 --> 00:28:36.334 But that's where I think too, that understanding that leadership isn't always about being in the lead. 00:28:36.334 --> 00:28:38.014 It's not always about being out front. 00:28:38.014 --> 00:28:40.534 It's not always about being an extrovert. 00:28:40.534 --> 00:28:43.384 It's not always about, you know, these grandiose things. 00:28:43.384 --> 00:28:43.474 Right? 00:28:43.744 --> 00:28:58.094 It's working internally to raise our own levels of consciousness through the things that you've mentioned, so that we can then in turn be a person of influence, whether now or through generations. 00:28:58.509 --> 00:28:58.919 Right. 00:28:59.079 --> 00:29:16.109 Jamie Mann: And I mean, I think it's really important also to, to, for all of us, whatever our role is, to think about, okay, what do I actually think an air quotes, real leader looks like, or what they do or don't do? 00:29:16.469 --> 00:29:25.964 Because the funny thing, tricky thing about our brains is that, you know, we make a lot of meaning out of it. 00:29:26.424 --> 00:29:27.554 Meaningless things. 00:29:27.764 --> 00:29:41.644 So it really depends on, it depends on our experiences, like what we learned growing up about certain things, who we spent our time with, you know, all of this kind of stuff is still impacting us as adults. 00:29:42.004 --> 00:29:48.734 So what do I think about, say somebody one day or I took an assessment or whatever, somebody called me an introvert. 00:29:48.734 --> 00:29:50.284 Oh gosh, you're sure shy. 00:29:50.689 --> 00:29:52.109 So what do I do with that? 00:29:52.209 --> 00:30:01.039 Do I make that mean that I can't do certain things, therefore I don't do certain things, therefore I prove to myself I can't do those things. 00:30:01.469 --> 00:30:04.959 There's just a lot of meaning we make. 00:30:04.969 --> 00:30:11.419 And so, questioning, If you find yourself saying, Oh, I'm not really a leader. 00:30:11.469 --> 00:30:13.969 I'm not really a people person. 00:30:14.189 --> 00:30:15.169 Whatever it is. 00:30:15.379 --> 00:30:17.079 How true is that? 00:30:17.089 --> 00:30:20.929 And that belief, what does that mean for you going forward? 00:30:21.259 --> 00:30:25.459 It's not a big deal if you're like, Ah, it's not keeping me from doing anything I want to do. 00:30:25.469 --> 00:30:25.979 Fine. 00:30:26.399 --> 00:30:28.219 But to be able to think about that. 00:30:28.514 --> 00:30:33.774 Is it getting in your way or kind of making it more challenging for you to do the things that are important to you? 00:30:34.604 --> 00:30:38.314 Because as you said, there's a lot of different ways to lead. 00:30:38.734 --> 00:30:45.714 And I think the other thing too is our society is really good at automatically giving people labels. 00:30:45.904 --> 00:30:50.554 We give ourselves labels too, but labels are a big thing because they make sense. 00:30:50.814 --> 00:31:02.184 For us, and our brain likes to make sense of things and so if there's certain labels we hang on to maybe we thought this about us decades ago, how, is that still true? 00:31:02.434 --> 00:31:03.594 Do I want it to be true? 00:31:04.304 --> 00:31:26.979 And like to think about those things because if we do want to be curious, be learning, be developing, we do need to be on top of questioning these things because what was true for us you A year ago, six months ago, a decade ago, whatever it is, it's not necessarily true today. 00:31:28.349 --> 00:31:28.839 Cheryl Johnson: Yes. 00:31:29.139 --> 00:31:37.389 And, you know, I think kind of the last thing I want to cover a little bit is I think a leader, to me, the embodiment of leadership. 00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:39.439 is being comfortable in your own skin. 00:31:39.889 --> 00:31:46.129 And, yes, taking that feedback, and it's, feedback isn't always going to feel good. 00:31:46.299 --> 00:31:46.959 I'm sorry. 00:31:47.239 --> 00:31:49.059 I don't care how comfortable in your own skin you are. 00:31:49.229 --> 00:31:53.159 I don't care how much, you know, you're, you feel like you're a really secure person. 00:31:53.659 --> 00:31:54.019 Yeah. 00:31:54.169 --> 00:31:55.639 Sometimes feedback hurts. 00:31:55.929 --> 00:32:03.334 And generally, the feedback that hurts the most either comes from somebody we love, or because, It's true. 00:32:04.124 --> 00:32:04.374 Yeah. 00:32:05.744 --> 00:32:09.934 Even if it's just a small part of it that's true, we pick up on that. 00:32:09.954 --> 00:32:18.784 And even though they may have meant the 90 percent that isn't really quite as bad as we thought, we zero in on that 10 percent and go, Oh, my gosh. 00:32:18.814 --> 00:32:21.524 Oh, I just want to bury my head in the sand. 00:32:22.064 --> 00:32:46.019 And so, to me, Raising our levels of consciousness is all about being more comfortable in our own skin, learning, developing, and taking feedback, and being willing to, because every time we do that, that creates that persona of, we would all love to be like Mother Teresa. 00:32:47.219 --> 00:32:54.669 We would all love to be like Gandhi, whether you're a Christian and you believe what you believe about Christ is not really relevant. 00:32:54.939 --> 00:33:01.094 I don't think anybody, you know, if you acknowledge that he lived, nobody's going to say that he was a bad person. 00:33:02.529 --> 00:33:13.399 You know, but they were all comfortable in their own skin, and they were all people who were here to serve the greater good. 00:33:14.119 --> 00:33:22.839 And the only reason they could do that is because of their higher levels of consciousness and because they were comfortable in their own skin. 00:33:23.109 --> 00:33:28.459 And I'm sure Jesus got plenty of negative feedback in his life, as a matter of fact, I'm quite certain. 00:33:28.729 --> 00:33:34.129 And Gandhi and Mother Teresa and any, anybody else you want to pick, you know, that we all tend to. 00:33:34.954 --> 00:33:35.914 Put upon a pedestal. 00:33:36.254 --> 00:33:39.898 So I think embodying that, you know, that 00:33:39.918 --> 00:33:41.078 what's the word I'm looking for? 00:33:41.268 --> 00:33:43.818 What's the one word for comfortable in your own skin? 00:33:44.418 --> 00:33:45.358 Jamie Mann: Authenticity. 00:33:45.628 --> 00:33:46.418 Cheryl Johnson: Yeah, there you go. 00:33:47.368 --> 00:33:47.558 Jamie Mann: Yeah. 00:33:47.558 --> 00:33:57.133 Yeah, and that's the other piece of, you know, when I kind of I'm working with people and working with this idea of connected leadership. 00:33:57.133 --> 00:34:02.663 It embodies that also, because we have to be, you know, there's a couple different things. 00:34:02.663 --> 00:34:04.523 We've got to be connected to ourselves. 00:34:04.573 --> 00:34:06.133 This whole idea of who am I? 00:34:06.143 --> 00:34:07.433 What do I stand for? 00:34:07.563 --> 00:34:09.843 Where are my strengths and talents? 00:34:09.843 --> 00:34:11.343 Where are my opportunities? 00:34:11.463 --> 00:34:15.123 What am I just amazing at that people think of when they think of Jamie? 00:34:15.123 --> 00:34:16.953 They think, Blah, right? 00:34:17.193 --> 00:34:32.853 Knowing all that stuff and being, being aware of it and okay with it is one thing and then being able to show up for others in a way that is consistent, credible, builds trust. 00:34:33.183 --> 00:34:53.773 You have a presence about you, whether it's a quiet presence or, you know, a big presence, either way, but that authenticity is really important to connect with others and to be able to build trust, build influence, and just have meaningful relationships. 00:34:54.273 --> 00:35:03.563 And so that authenticity thing is really important, and I think when we're not confident in who we are, being authentic is very challenging. 00:35:03.743 --> 00:35:15.013 Because if I'm not confident in who I am, and I don't understand who I am, I'm not connected to myself, then I might feel like I need to be somebody else in every situation. 00:35:15.523 --> 00:35:17.783 Because I just don't feel I know who I am. 00:35:17.783 --> 00:35:19.043 And that can be off putting. 00:35:19.493 --> 00:35:32.093 And I know I've worked with people where You just don't know what you're gonna get because they don't have that consistent way of being. 00:35:32.463 --> 00:35:38.213 And so, there is a little bit of discomfort there as far as, Okay, which, you know, which Jamie am I gonna get today? 00:35:38.213 --> 00:35:39.263 Yeah. 00:35:39.843 --> 00:35:42.593 Or how's she going to be with this thing going on? 00:35:42.813 --> 00:35:44.173 Because I just never know. 00:35:44.503 --> 00:35:46.483 It's a little bit, it kind of keeps you on your toes. 00:35:46.483 --> 00:35:47.573 It's not as comfortable. 00:35:48.593 --> 00:36:02.414 Cheryl Johnson: Yeah, and I think in the world we live in overall, authenticity is really lacking because I always tell people, you know, unfortunately, I think from the time we're young, we're conditioned to conform. 00:36:03.661 --> 00:36:11.551 And now I'm not saying we let our kids run wild and don't have rules and guidelines, don't, you know, anybody out there mistake me for saying this. 00:36:12.331 --> 00:36:23.111 Like you think, you know, allowing your kids to not necessarily challenge you, but allowing your kids to, to say, hey, mom, why did you say that? 00:36:23.151 --> 00:36:31.691 Or, you know, and then you develop those skills when you're young, and then you can transfer them into. 00:36:32.226 --> 00:36:36.466 When you go to school, and maybe you can have that kind of relationship with the teacher. 00:36:36.476 --> 00:36:41.646 The best teacher I ever had when in high school was a teacher and I loved him to death. 00:36:41.646 --> 00:36:48.286 I've always been very politically minded, and I, you know, took, we were required to take a government class in ninth grade. 00:36:48.756 --> 00:36:51.756 And he and I were on opposite ends of the spectrum. 00:36:52.211 --> 00:37:13.741 I mean, we couldn't have been farther apart, but he treated me with respect, and because he treated me with respect, and because my parents did allow me, you know, some latitude to kind of push back, I felt comfortable pushing back and saying, well, I don't agree with you on that particular thing, and you know, politics and religion are going to make enemies of everybody, right? 00:37:14.261 --> 00:37:14.581 Right. 00:37:15.011 --> 00:37:23.181 And I ended up being an aide for him for the next three years and he challenged me and but I felt comfortable with him challenging me. 00:37:23.871 --> 00:37:40.671 And, you know, I took his feedback to heart, even when I didn't agree with it, I didn't like it, you know, and maybe it was because it was a political thing, but maybe it was because he didn't like the way I wrote this paper, or, you know, I needed to communicate better, or I didn't use good resources, you know, different types of things. 00:37:41.271 --> 00:37:45.591 And so, I learned that it's okay to push back. 00:37:45.601 --> 00:37:49.261 It's okay to say, I, what did you mean? 00:37:49.271 --> 00:37:49.791 Why? 00:37:50.511 --> 00:37:58.591 Now, I will admit it's a little different story, you know, when my husband will tell you, he goes, I have to be so careful around you all the time. 00:37:58.871 --> 00:38:06.101 I have really thin skin, you know, I'm like, yeah, it's a little different when it's your, you know, somebody you're really, Yeah, right. 00:38:06.491 --> 00:38:07.151 Invested in. 00:38:07.371 --> 00:38:15.011 But I think that's what we need to do as leaders is, just like my teacher did, we don't have to agree. 00:38:16.461 --> 00:38:18.721 Jamie Mann: I think we should assume we won't agree. 00:38:18.821 --> 00:38:19.191 Right. 00:38:19.711 --> 00:38:24.981 As soon as we start realizing, like, why would I just assume we're all going to agree? 00:38:25.001 --> 00:38:26.751 Think of how different we all are, right? 00:38:27.951 --> 00:38:30.751 So how can we encourage productive conversation? 00:38:31.571 --> 00:38:36.271 Cheryl Johnson: And I think that starts by allowing people to be authentic. 00:38:37.371 --> 00:38:47.651 Not forcing them to conform because once we allow them to be authentic, then they're going to feel more comfortable pushing back and you can imagine. 00:38:47.751 --> 00:38:53.051 It's been many years ago that I was in high school and had this teacher, but the last real. 00:38:53.961 --> 00:38:56.231 Long term job I had was right before covid. 00:38:56.701 --> 00:39:02.641 And I was at the University of California and I always, he was my favorite boss in the whole world. 00:39:03.031 --> 00:39:05.221 I got hired to be an instructional designer. 00:39:05.221 --> 00:39:07.791 When I got there, I did very little instructional design. 00:39:07.791 --> 00:39:16.561 I was there, I think, a year and a half and, but he asked me to do all kinds of things that I'd never done before, like data analytics. 00:39:17.106 --> 00:39:19.036 Instructional design data analytics. 00:39:19.536 --> 00:39:26.306 Yeah, if I'm analyzing data about training, maybe, but no, not procurement data, you know, kind of thing. 00:39:27.506 --> 00:39:32.186 Then, you know, I want you to take these kids under because it was at the University of California. 00:39:32.186 --> 00:39:38.146 So we had these student interns and nobody else wanted to, you know, manage them. 00:39:38.146 --> 00:39:39.376 So he's Oh you go manage. 00:39:40.076 --> 00:39:42.186 I'm a contractor, why am I managing them? 00:39:43.316 --> 00:39:45.126 Yeah, but because. 00:39:46.126 --> 00:39:51.576 You know, and I would push back and be like, I don't know how to do that, what, I, that wasn't what I was hired to do. 00:39:51.756 --> 00:39:56.976 It wasn't that I'm not unwilling to do it, I just want you to know that you're pushing me outside my comfort zone. 00:39:58.096 --> 00:40:00.536 And he's no problem, I have confidence that you can do it. 00:40:00.566 --> 00:40:04.186 And I was like, okay, I loved that job. 00:40:04.801 --> 00:40:05.121 Jamie Mann: Right. 00:40:05.601 --> 00:40:07.791 Cheryl Johnson: That's one of those jobs I woke up every morning. 00:40:08.051 --> 00:40:10.461 As a matter of fact, I was in California living in Virginia. 00:40:10.641 --> 00:40:17.201 I spent three weeks in California and one week in Virginia, which my husband was traveling a lot, so it wasn't that big of a deal. 00:40:17.541 --> 00:40:23.661 But it was just like every time I got on that plane to go back there, I was like, I'm excited. 00:40:24.041 --> 00:40:24.251 Right. 00:40:24.801 --> 00:40:34.886 Jamie Mann: And so, you know, the idea that specific leader communicated and obviously made you feel like you got this I know you can do it. 00:40:35.286 --> 00:40:37.826 I'm assuming that it was a guy, he. 00:40:38.516 --> 00:40:51.036 He was very it sounds like probably optimistic, hopeful, kind of uplifting, like all of that is so important to keep people feeling excited and happy. 00:40:51.056 --> 00:40:58.236 And even when you have hard days, when you have that sort of energy around, it makes the hard days okay. 00:40:59.381 --> 00:41:02.331 Cheryl Johnson: And not only that, I mean, there was plenty of times I would come up to him. 00:41:02.331 --> 00:41:05.731 I'd be like, Oh, I'm really challenged by these students or whatever. 00:41:06.251 --> 00:41:06.821 And he laughs. 00:41:06.831 --> 00:41:08.461 I wrote a book called The Ambition Quotient. 00:41:08.461 --> 00:41:10.251 It's all about managing people, believe it or not. 00:41:11.621 --> 00:41:16.551 And he'd laugh at me because he also was a publisher on the side and he published my book. 00:41:16.551 --> 00:41:18.621 So he had read it and he'd just laugh at me. 00:41:18.621 --> 00:41:19.751 He goes, go back and read your book. 00:41:21.701 --> 00:41:22.001 Jamie Mann: Yeah. 00:41:22.001 --> 00:41:23.881 Take some of your own medicine there, Cheryl. 00:41:23.951 --> 00:41:36.591 Cheryl Johnson: I had that kind of relationship where he felt comfortable and I would put my Excel spreadsheet together and I'd go show it to him and he'd be like, no, that's not even close. 00:41:36.591 --> 00:41:39.751 And I'm like, and he's let me sit down. 00:41:39.901 --> 00:41:42.311 And one time he's I really don't have time to be showing you all this. 00:41:42.311 --> 00:41:45.401 So there's a guy over in IT that's really good at this. 00:41:45.831 --> 00:41:46.111 Right. 00:41:46.271 --> 00:41:46.681 He'll take 00:41:46.681 --> 00:41:47.201 Jamie Mann: you through it. 00:41:49.581 --> 00:42:01.271 Cheryl Johnson: Why, I never, in all my years of working contract jobs and other W 2 jobs and things it didn't seem that hard to be, for him in particular, to be that way. 00:42:01.521 --> 00:42:02.011 Right. 00:42:02.131 --> 00:42:04.281 It does seem to be hard sometimes for people. 00:42:04.876 --> 00:42:05.626 Jamie Mann: Yeah, it does. 00:42:05.626 --> 00:42:22.426 And sometimes, you know, ego can get in the way, you know, many times there can be leadership kind of challenges when, you know, let's say I, I really don't feel comfortable relying on anybody else in their expertise, but at the same time, it seems crazy to think. 00:42:23.006 --> 00:42:24.786 One person would know everything. 00:42:25.056 --> 00:42:26.886 But sometimes that's how people show up. 00:42:26.936 --> 00:42:28.606 I have all the answers, right? 00:42:28.786 --> 00:42:31.116 You don't worry your pretty little head. 00:42:31.126 --> 00:42:32.976 Look to me for all the things. 00:42:33.366 --> 00:42:36.816 But I just find that puts a kind of a barrier between people too. 00:42:37.191 --> 00:42:56.731 Because realistically, we are going to work better together when we are able to rely on each other for the certain strengths and talents and bits of knowledge that we have, because you're going to have different strengths and experience and knowledge and bringing that to me versus me having something different. 00:42:56.731 --> 00:43:05.861 And so when we put all that together in a way that you feel valued and Included and like you belong and you've got the good feels. 00:43:05.861 --> 00:43:07.901 When I say, gosh, Cheryl, that was so awesome. 00:43:07.901 --> 00:43:11.251 When you put that report together for me, I had no idea how to do that. 00:43:11.471 --> 00:43:13.811 You've made my life so much easier. 00:43:14.276 --> 00:43:14.496 Right? 00:43:14.496 --> 00:43:17.616 When I can say that to you, you've been able to use this talent you have. 00:43:17.846 --> 00:43:21.626 You feel good because I've really, I really appreciated it. 00:43:21.976 --> 00:43:24.346 And then that's how we work well together. 00:43:24.866 --> 00:43:29.776 But when I think, well, Cheryl, she doesn't know how to do this. 00:43:29.866 --> 00:43:31.986 Cheryl just started with us. 00:43:32.216 --> 00:43:33.406 I'll figure it out. 00:43:33.406 --> 00:43:35.066 I'm the big boss here. 00:43:35.326 --> 00:43:37.786 It's that's what puts barriers in between us. 00:43:38.376 --> 00:43:43.666 And that's when you're going to go, I don't I don't know about this Jamie, there's just something about her. 00:43:43.706 --> 00:43:44.396 I don't know. 00:43:44.796 --> 00:43:45.006 Cheryl Johnson: Yeah. 00:43:45.766 --> 00:43:46.686 Why'd she even hire me? 00:43:46.696 --> 00:43:47.801 Why'd she bring me here? 00:43:48.401 --> 00:43:49.671 Jamie Mann: So it's like all of that stuff. 00:43:49.671 --> 00:43:50.791 It's very simple. 00:43:50.951 --> 00:43:58.731 It's, it is simple, but sometimes it's tricky to consistently show up in a way that's human, because that feels a little bit scary. 00:43:59.591 --> 00:44:00.691 Cheryl Johnson: Yes, it does. 00:44:00.701 --> 00:44:02.251 Jamie Mann: So, yeah. 00:44:03.001 --> 00:44:12.011 Cheryl Johnson: Well, I think in summary, I thought if I were to walk away from this conversation with one key idea, it's that authenticity rules. 00:44:12.941 --> 00:44:13.081 Jamie Mann: Yeah. 00:44:13.911 --> 00:44:26.631 Yeah, and I would just like to obviously state the point Just to be 100 percent clear, is that is not easy to do also when we are in an environment when we are underrepresented. 00:44:26.931 --> 00:44:28.411 There is no way around it. 00:44:28.631 --> 00:44:42.881 If I am, say, the only female in a very male dominated company, who perhaps doesn't, appreciate different viewpoints, it's going to be pretty hard for me to show up authentically. 00:44:43.141 --> 00:44:47.301 So I just want to put that out there because if anyone's listening going, Oh, that's real nice. 00:44:47.481 --> 00:44:47.771 Okay. 00:44:47.801 --> 00:44:48.061 Sounds good. 00:44:48.951 --> 00:44:50.001 It sounds good. 00:44:50.261 --> 00:44:54.471 And it's going to be tricky depending on where we're working and where we are. 00:44:54.781 --> 00:45:05.131 And my hope is that as more people are committed to sort of leveling up their leadership and looking at themselves to see what can I bring. 00:45:05.566 --> 00:45:09.196 To the table to make everything better for everybody in our team. 00:45:09.506 --> 00:45:12.216 I'm hoping that the more people do that consistently. 00:45:12.506 --> 00:45:17.156 Right, we are going to get to a place where people can truly be themselves in the workplace. 00:45:17.656 --> 00:45:19.326 And they feel like they belong. 00:45:20.366 --> 00:45:20.716 Cheryl Johnson: Yeah. 00:45:20.986 --> 00:45:24.996 And it's because we spend so much of our lives in the workplace. 00:45:25.956 --> 00:45:26.386 Right. 00:45:26.546 --> 00:45:27.396 It's important. 00:45:27.916 --> 00:45:28.336 Right. 00:45:28.516 --> 00:45:29.586 It's really important. 00:45:29.856 --> 00:45:32.896 And so on that note, I appreciate your time today. 00:45:32.896 --> 00:45:33.466 Thanks so much. 00:45:33.506 --> 00:45:33.666 Yeah, 00:45:34.066 --> 00:45:34.366 Jamie Mann: thanks 00:45:34.366 --> 00:45:34.826 Cheryl Johnson: Cheryl. 00:45:35.416 --> 00:45:35.696 All right.