Cheryl Johnson: Hello and welcome everybody.
Today I have Jamie Mann with the Amaryllis Project.
She's from Canada.
We're such good neighbors that it's sometimes it's hard to in my opinion draw a line between us.
I agree.
I think a lot of the culture is the same.
And since we're going to be talking a lot about culture today, I think that's really important.
I reached out to Jamie because she and I have a shared passion, I guess, for the concept of conscious leadership.
But we have discussed a little bit about how it's kind of a buzzword and, you know, what does that mean?
So I'll let her take a few minutes to introduce herself.
And then from there, she can just jump into what her So I'm going to start with you, Cheryl, and then I'm going to turn
Jamie Mann: it over to you to talk about what your idea of conscious leadership is.
Okay.
Thanks, Cheryl.
Oh, I didn't even, I got so excited, Cheryl.
I didn't even introduce myself.
I just realized that
Cheryl Johnson: I was just, I forgot you did too, because I'm like, I'm formulating all these questions I have in mind.
I'm already
Jamie Mann: thinking about it.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Introduce yourself.
Okay.
Thanks.
I'm doing it backwards.
I just never follow instructions.
Sorry, Cheryl.
I you know, I'm a partner in a commercial construction company in Canada.
Actually, my business partner and I are actually life partners as well.
So we work together, raise our kids together, the whole thing.
And my background is psychology actually.
So for the last number of years in our construction business, my interest was always, you know, how do we create a better workplace?
How do we create engagement?
How do we have people that we work with that feel like they belong and they're not a number in a corporation or something like that?
And so it's always that side of the business that always very much interested me.
And so the last number of years.
I have actually been doing separate work through the Amaryllis project, which is a leadership advisory speaking and consulting business that I do.
And so I kind of split my time between the two and then I think I was just telling you prior to us hitting record that I'm doing my master's in the psychology of leadership through Penn State.
So I, I just, I've always really been interested in what we can do.
to be a little bit better than we were yesterday.
I would say, you know, conscious leadership is something in my work, I kind of refer to it as connected leadership.
It's this idea that if you want to picture leadership as, I like imagery.
So I kind of think of an iceberg, right?
When we use the word conscious, it's are we awake?
And when I think of an iceberg, there is so much under the water.
And so somebody who is, Committed to conscious leadership or being connected has to be aware of a whole lot of things.
First of all, aware of what they bring to any situation.
Aware of their preferences, their biases how they come across, how they can tweak their behaviour a little bit better to get a more effective outcome.
And it's this idea that there's always Something more we can learn.
So there's definitely a real commitment to continuous learning and being curious.
And I think, you know, that's why it resonates with me so much, because there is always something more to learn.
And I think one of the things in leadership, and when I work with companies, I notice that sometimes when that is missing, that Desire to learn.
That's when we kind of lose our influence and our credibility and really our ability to work well with others is when we lose that.
Cheryl Johnson: Thank you.
I think some of the things that jumped out to me and I'll get to this in a little bit is the idea of continuous learning and.
Being able to connect better with those that we work with my own personal background.
I come from I'm an independent consultant have literally worked with.
I say hundreds, it seems like hundreds, but at least a hundred or more companies in my career and whether it be, you know, government agencies, small business, large businesses, you know, fortune 500 companies, whatever.
I have seen firsthand a lot of different cultures and some of them more so than others, but we do have a shared background in the world of construction.
Okay.
My family is all, you know, they've built houses, they're more on the residential side.
And my son right now works as an electrician in the in the commercial space.
But,
especially, you sure have much more hands on and practical experience in this than I do.
But my experience, and my brother happened to work also before he retired in a commercial capacity, you know, in the electrical world.
And In all the years that he worked, you know, he'd call me a lot of times and there was a lot of frustration because it seemed to be a toxic workplace construction.
There's just such stress and the demands and quite often they would bring, you know, they would hire young people or people who didn't have.
The requisite skills, they just hire them as laborers.
And so there's always a really high turnover rate.
And rather than take the time and to be fair, you know, in the construction world, there's such a small profit margin and, you know, you're so, I don't know what Not you personally, but yeah, I get the industry is so, I don't know the word I'm looking for.
It's and my dad worked as an industrial electrician and he worked in a lot of different building large, he built a neck or didn't build.
He designed the blueprints for the electrical on an Exxon plant in Wyoming.
And so, you know, they've worked at all different levels, but they just don't ever seem to have the time to develop talent.
So there's high turnover rate.
There's people frustrated.
You didn't know how to do this right.
We don't have the time to teach you, but we don't have the money to hire, you know, anyway.
You know,
Jamie Mann: yeah, no, there's a lot of moving parts and there's a lot of things that are happening actually in the industry that's caught like kind of exacerbating some of that stress.
So, you know, there's you know, the stats in Canada.
I'm not sure of the exact stats in the US, but there is a lot of.
Seasoned trades people, right, that have been retiring and that are set to retire in the next five, 10 years, which is putting a huge squeeze on finding talent and getting talent up to speed to those levels those skill levels.
And so that's one of the things that's happening when we think about you know, even just the complexities about getting the right materials.
To where they need to be on time without delays or plant shutdowns or tariffs.
Yeah.
You know, I sorry I just had to whisper that.
But there's so many things happening that, that.
Can get in the way of a project running smoothly.
And at the same time you know, where I live, we have like very extreme seasons.
So when it's warm out and we can get in the ground, there is a massive push.
And you know, unless the weather is so bad we physically can't work, we're working.
And so that also compresses timelines.
And people still want what they want when they want it, right?
So, there's a lot happening.
And I think that the pandemic obviously didn't help any of us as far as our just everything like our coping skills, our feeling of connecting, being connected to other people, like just feeling like you're part of a team.
Like it really kind of was challenging for all people.
And I think that there's a lot of.
stress that's coming out.
You know, trying to get new people up to speed.
There's the pressure to get the stuff done.
There's problems getting materials.
There's you know, a lot happening.
And some of the simple things, I think, is what we forget often.
The things that actually make a difference.
In our workplaces, in our leadership and I do believe that leadership is something we all need to think about, whether or not we have a title or we have some sort of seniority level or not, because I mean, when I think about just construction sites, whether I am a Driving the dump truck and scrapping out a job site, whether I'm the person pushing a broom and making small cuts in something, or whether I'm the person running the job, essentially, we all have impact on one another and the impact we have on each other is far greater than we need.
give ourselves credit for.
And so how I show up on a site or in a workplace and how I treat each person has a huge impact on how that job site or that workplace functions.
And just like bad manners or rudeness is contagious, which is research backed, the same thing is also true about, you know, behaving with respect and civility and treating others with dignity.
That is also true.
has a ripple effect.
And so conscious leadership going back there is thinking what is my impact?
What is my actual impact without relying on assumptions or patting myself on the back and going, no, I'm good.
I'm good.
I get along with everybody.
I'm nice people like me.
And that might be true, but to always be able to question, okay, what are my biases, as assumptions, do I.
Kind of hold my preferences as more important than the other people I work with.
How do I collaborate with people?
Am I truly respectful?
Do I make people feel like they belong?
Or, unintentionally, do I sort of make people feel like they're outsiders?
Because it's the feeling it's that is going to build our workplace culture.
Where people like coming to work and when they leave at the end of the day, they don't go, Oh, thank God I have, you know, 24 hours till I'm back at this hellhole.
That's what we don't want, right?
Cheryl Johnson: Yeah, you want people that when they wake up in the morning, kind of look forward to going to work and, you know.
Having worked at numerous places, there have been plenty of them that I wake up in the morning and went, Oh, do I have to face this today?
And then there's others.
Am I going to
Jamie Mann: get through this?
Cheryl Johnson: Yeah, and it's amazing to me how much more productive I am and my work product is so much better when I wake up in the morning and I go, wow, I'm excited to be there.
And I think this applies to both the construction world and.
I mentioned when we were talking earlier that I, even though I live in the United States and I was working remotely, I worked for a company out of Kitchener, which is by Toronto.
And I was, it was probably one of, one of my favorite, I mean, I've had several favorite jobs, but this one in particular, the reason it was my favorite was because as soon as I started, they assigned me a mentor.
And a mentor is nothing more than a leader.
And she kind of taught me the ropes and, you know, how to navigate, you know, kind of some pitfalls to avoid and where to find information and who to go to when I had questions.
And when I got, so because I had a really good mentor I got assigned a meaningful project right out of the gate, which was really important.
And.
You know, I did it under her guidance and things and so I think you, you brought up something that I thought was really valuable is the idea that being a leader is not necessarily tied to a position or seniority, it's based on, you know, am I in a position to influence someone else?
Right.
How is my influence impacting those around me?
I know that my son has been working for.
Probably 10 years, maybe longer, as an electrician.
They've tried to promote him to be a project manager, he hated it.
Then they tried promoting him to be a foreman, he hated it, he didn't want to.
But he's the one that always gets assigned to the newbies.
He loves it.
Right.
And, you know, he's I'm not a leader.
I'm just, you know, I'm just like the person that nobody else wants to show these, you know, greenies how to do the job, you know, and once again, how to navigate the politics that come with every job and everything.
And so I think when we step back and we look at the fact that we are all leaders in our own right because all of us have some kind of influence over someone else.
That it then becomes more imperative for us to really, like you said, examine ourselves and look inward and say, okay, what, how am I influencing someone else?
Jamie Mann: Right.
Cheryl Johnson: And not just one person, but you know, it could be multiple people in different capacities.
So, I don't know.
That kind of goes back to, so I'll circle around here, back to, you know, learning and development.
If I'm going to look inward, then I need to examine.
Whatever I examine and come out with, I need to go, Oh, what do I need to learn to improve my leadership skills and be a better person of influence?
So I'll let you run with that.
Jamie Mann: Right.
Yeah.
And the thing that, you know, I always say to people too, is When we're committed to building our awareness, learning how we can be a little bit better, a little bit more effective, you know, we have to get comfortable with gathering feedback.
So, you know, the interesting thing too is when we think about self awareness.
There's research showing that, you know, most of us, it's 85 percent or something like that, or even higher, say, you know, we're self aware.
But the research actually shows it's more like 10 to 15 percent actually are.
So, the key here is we can build our own self awareness, which is still very important.
But because it's so tricky to do in a vacuum, I do need to get comfortable gathering feedback.
From the people in my network, the people in my workplace, the people in my leadership circle or whatever and have both of those pieces.
So I'm still doing the inner work and I'm still being open to considering my impact and how I am and all this, but I'm also coupling that with out trusted outside feedback.
And when I take those two together, I really build a solid.
awareness of truly what I'm bringing and where my gaps are, my learning opportunities.
And when we get feedback from people, the other thing to remember is, of course, we don't have to take it all.
That's the other thing.
That's why sometimes people are scared of feedback.
Well, for a couple reasons, right?
Because our egos can be very sensitive sometimes.
But also it's that idea like, Oh, but if I get the feedback, I have to take it.
And I don't know if I want to take it.
And that's a choice.
We don't have to take all of the feedback we get.
We do have a choice to look at it critically with a critical eye and make the decision, which pieces really resonate and make sense to me.
And which pieces maybe aren't mine to take on.
Because again, like we're humans are messy.
Sometimes I know, you know, in the past I've received feedback that maybe I took really, you know, one example, actually, which may be other women in leadership or other And, well really, lots of us might resonate with, but you know, there's certain things that perhaps we are supposed to be and not supposed to be, depending on who we are.
So I like pink, I look like a girly girl I like sparkly things, and so I remember You know years ago somebody kind of really harshly kind of said you're bossy and I was like ah and that really struck me because at the time that was years ago And I thought bossy that's horrible, but then you know really looking inward Looking with perspective and a critical eye, you know, that had nothing to do with me.
That was somebody who had a perception of what I should be based on how I look, or perhaps what a woman should be based on all sorts of things.
Because we never Being bossy isn't a bad thing.
We never say to a man, you're bossy, and that's a bad thing.
And so, even being able to have a critical eye to look at what's happening around us, what are the biases that exist do I want to take that feedback on as my own, or is that coming from somebody else's perception or their bias?
And, you know, that alone, I didn't just dismiss because I didn't want to think about it.
I kind of was like, let's look at all the evidence.
Let's look at all the proof.
What other feedback have I received in my life?
Do I know the people giving me the feedback?
Do I feel they know me?
And so taking like all of that, being like critical about it.
I don't want to hold that feedback and feel bad about it if it's not really accurate.
And so when I work with people, and sometimes we do get feedback that lands really heavy In our guts and sits with us and it's well, hold on, let's just, how true is that?
Let's look at the proof.
Let's look at, let's look at all the other pieces of information.
And I regularly kind of refer to the need for us to be like investigators, whether or not it's leadership or just in our families or how we connect with our friends.
Let's be investigators because we all come to the table with our own stuff.
And so, Being a little bit more aware of, how true is it?
You know, like just, we don't have to take everything on and have it kind of impact us negatively.
Cause just like it feels great when we get good feedback, I think it's also important to question that also.
Because we can get in a sort of leadership you know, dark zone of just not being aware is when we have people around us always complimenting us and giving us Positive feedback that maybe is inaccurate either So it's really important to look at all the feedback we get as an investigator.
So with an investigator's eye Because that's the only way we can truly build our competencies and our skill sets accurately is when we do that.
Cheryl Johnson: Yeah, I like that holistic approach and I, things that kind of came to my mind as you were talking is sometimes, and my husband actually has taught me this one, is that People don't always choose the right word.
True.
And you know, I can tell you right now, I don't care if you're a male or a female.
If you're bossy, chances are I'm not going to respond well to bossy.
And sometimes, you know, we may be acting in a way that The person conveying that message couldn't think of a different word at the moment that was possibly a little bit more accurate.
And so I think we'll ask for clarification.
Yeah, you know, they'll be like, okay, well, if that's the case then.
What can I do to communicate more effectively with you?
What is what's a better way of communicating with you?
Because, you know, I'm sure we all go back to when we were kids or whatever.
And our bossy parents, because yeah, if we had good parents, we had bossy parents.
Yes.
Right.
But as soon as my mom would, you know, go do the dishes, she always used to say, I can just see the hair on the back of your neck stand up.
And it would be, you know, Hey, the dishes need done.
Do you mind going and doing them?
And I'd be like, Oh, okay.
You know?
So I think that type of communication is helpful.
And another thing came to my mind as you were talking was I'm into all kinds of things, but human design is one of them.
And one of my profile is what they call a projector, which is the Total opposite of what a projector, in my opinion, would be.
I don't know how they, once again, talking about language, how they labeled that one.
Because a projector typically will sit back and wait to be invited.
Right.
And, you know, because I'm that type of personality, naturally, people think, oh, well, you're not a leader because you don't lead, you don't go out in front and say here, and it took me a long time as an independent consultant, you know, you typically get hired.
Because they don't have the subject matter expertise in house or they need additional bodies or whatever, you know, and because of that, a lot of times, especially early on in a project, I would be brought in and my first inclination is to sit back, take notes, listen to people, find out, you know, what's currently been happening, why is the project where it's at, who are the different personalities, who are the different people and the roles they play.
And somebody came up to me one day and they're like, we didn't hire you just to sit there and take notes.
We could have hired a note taker.
And I was like, I've only been here one day.
Jamie Mann: Yeah, get in my bearings, get in my bearings.
Well, and that's interesting too, because that makes me think of you know, I like all types of leadership assessments.
I very frequently work with Gallup Strengths Finder and one of the things there is, you know, one of their pillars of strengths is the influencing strengths.
And so, you know, I know in my own case, when I did that assessment many years ago, my influencing strengths are lower.
And I remember having that feeling like, well, how am I actually a leader?
If all my influencing strengths are not my strengths yikes, I guess I'm not a leader, but what it really points to is that we manage to accomplish things all in a different fashion.
And so in the sense of, you know, Gallup strengths is okay, well, all the other strengths that I have all work together.
to work to influence and lead.
So just because perhaps I'm not a, let's call it a traditional leader of, you know, giving orders and, you know, bossing people around and stuff like that doesn't mean, you know, there's no capability to lead and influence.
It's just a different style.
Just like what you're saying, right, in human design.
There's different ways to lead.
And one of the interesting things that What I'm super interested in is the idea of how leadership is affected by what people think a real leader is.
You know, do I take somebody seriously and see them as a leader if they come across different than my ideal picture of a leader?
And realistically, the id I'll use, you know, air quotes.
The ideal picture of a leader is, you know, the traditional middle aged dude probably most people would say white dude.
And that traditional style of leading from many years ago isn't actually what's most effective today.
And when we think about, you know, all the young folks coming into the workforce and what they're looking for, that they don't resonate with that type of leader.
And that's why conscious leadership being more authentic, I mean the whole arm of authentic leadership research is really interesting, but how to connect with people as a human, you still have expectations, you still influence, you still directly communicate, hold people accountable, like that all still happens, but it's just packaged differently.
And if we're unable to connect with people, we're really at a disadvantage when it comes to leading because people aren't responding the same way as they did years ago.
Cheryl Johnson: Yeah and I did a lot of research in 2010 2011 on this whole, because I'm a boomer and I come from that generation and and I was working with a lot of Who were at the time millennials, I guess there's two millennials, but I mean, you know what I mean, and I get the idea and it was like, okay, how, and because I did a lot of onboarding programs, I created a ton of onboarding programs.
It was really important to understand these different generational differences.
And I found that really interesting and how do they respond and a book that just came to mind while you were talking was, it's been out for, I don't know.
15 maybe even 20 years it's called quiet.
I don't know if you've ever heard but Yes, I mean it's like this thick and i'm like, yeah, right that much about quiet, you know,
Jamie Mann: right?
Cheryl Johnson: And it really resonated with me because I tend to be quiet and I tend i'm like If you give me a personality test, my kids joke that literally I'll score 99 percent on the introvert scale.
Yes,
Jamie Mann: right.
Cheryl Johnson: And they're like, introverts don't get up and do public speaking, but you do.
Introverts don't sit on podcasts and talk to people, but you do.
Right, right.
You've got, you know, a completely different view and then Julian Stodd out of the UK, he's done quite a bit of research and on what he calls quiet leadership and I'm really fascinated by his work and I really like what he's put out there because I have found that.
Once again, a leader is just a person of influence and your influence can have a ripple effect.
And then if I got into all my reading lately, but you know, David Hawking's has written a book called Power Versus Force, which Once again is a book all it's very heavy.
I wouldn't highly recommend it unless you're into heavy reading quiet It's much easier to read but you know, he has these levels of consciousness that he goes through And as you get to the highest levels of consciousness, you know, they refer to the few people throughout history, and I mean like thousands of years, that reach that level are people like Jesus, people like Gandhi, people like, you know, And yet, When Jesus was alive, he was not known as a leader.
As a matter of fact, he was known as a heretic, you know, and he wasn't a person that was at the Sanhedrin, and he wasn't, you know, in all these places where all of the lack of a better word, rich and famous people were, you know, kind of thing.
Right, right.
Fancy people.
Yeah, he went down into the everyday people.
These people have had some of the most profound influence over time.
Yeah.
Maybe in their lifetime.
They didn't, you know, cause this wonderful ripple effect we would all like to have.
But that's where I think too, that understanding that leadership isn't always about being in the lead.
It's not always about being out front.
It's not always about being an extrovert.
It's not always about, you know, these grandiose things.
Right?
It's working internally to raise our own levels of consciousness through the things that you've mentioned, so that we can then in turn be a person of influence, whether now or through generations.
Right.
Jamie Mann: And I mean, I think it's really important also to, to, for all of us, whatever our role is, to think about, okay, what do I actually think an air quotes, real leader looks like, or what they do or don't do?
Because the funny thing, tricky thing about our brains is that, you know, we make a lot of meaning out of it.
Meaningless things.
So it really depends on, it depends on our experiences, like what we learned growing up about certain things, who we spent our time with, you know, all of this kind of stuff is still impacting us as adults.
So what do I think about, say somebody one day or I took an assessment or whatever, somebody called me an introvert.
Oh gosh, you're sure shy.
So what do I do with that?
Do I make that mean that I can't do certain things, therefore I don't do certain things, therefore I prove to myself I can't do those things.
There's just a lot of meaning we make.
And so, questioning, If you find yourself saying, Oh, I'm not really a leader.
I'm not really a people person.
Whatever it is.
How true is that?
And that belief, what does that mean for you going forward?
It's not a big deal if you're like, Ah, it's not keeping me from doing anything I want to do.
Fine.
But to be able to think about that.
Is it getting in your way or kind of making it more challenging for you to do the things that are important to you?
Because as you said, there's a lot of different ways to lead.
And I think the other thing too is our society is really good at automatically giving people labels.
We give ourselves labels too, but labels are a big thing because they make sense.
For us, and our brain likes to make sense of things and so if there's certain labels we hang on to maybe we thought this about us decades ago, how, is that still true?
Do I want it to be true?
And like to think about those things because if we do want to be curious, be learning, be developing, we do need to be on top of questioning these things because what was true for us you A year ago, six months ago, a decade ago, whatever it is, it's not necessarily true today.
Cheryl Johnson: Yes.
And, you know, I think kind of the last thing I want to cover a little bit is I think a leader, to me, the embodiment of leadership.
is being comfortable in your own skin.
And, yes, taking that feedback, and it's, feedback isn't always going to feel good.
I'm sorry.
I don't care how comfortable in your own skin you are.
I don't care how much, you know, you're, you feel like you're a really secure person.
Yeah.
Sometimes feedback hurts.
And generally, the feedback that hurts the most either comes from somebody we love, or because, It's true.
Yeah.
Even if it's just a small part of it that's true, we pick up on that.
And even though they may have meant the 90 percent that isn't really quite as bad as we thought, we zero in on that 10 percent and go, Oh, my gosh.
Oh, I just want to bury my head in the sand.
And so, to me, Raising our levels of consciousness is all about being more comfortable in our own skin, learning, developing, and taking feedback, and being willing to, because every time we do that, that creates that persona of, we would all love to be like Mother Teresa.
We would all love to be like Gandhi, whether you're a Christian and you believe what you believe about Christ is not really relevant.
I don't think anybody, you know, if you acknowledge that he lived, nobody's going to say that he was a bad person.
You know, but they were all comfortable in their own skin, and they were all people who were here to serve the greater good.
And the only reason they could do that is because of their higher levels of consciousness and because they were comfortable in their own skin.
And I'm sure Jesus got plenty of negative feedback in his life, as a matter of fact, I'm quite certain.
And Gandhi and Mother Teresa and any, anybody else you want to pick, you know, that we all tend to.
Put upon a pedestal.
So I think embodying that, you know, that
what's the word I'm looking for?
What's the one word for comfortable in your own skin?
Jamie Mann: Authenticity.
Cheryl Johnson: Yeah, there you go.
Jamie Mann: Yeah.
Yeah, and that's the other piece of, you know, when I kind of I'm working with people and working with this idea of connected leadership.
It embodies that also, because we have to be, you know, there's a couple different things.
We've got to be connected to ourselves.
This whole idea of who am I?
What do I stand for?
Where are my strengths and talents?
Where are my opportunities?
What am I just amazing at that people think of when they think of Jamie?
They think, Blah, right?
Knowing all that stuff and being, being aware of it and okay with it is one thing and then being able to show up for others in a way that is consistent, credible, builds trust.
You have a presence about you, whether it's a quiet presence or, you know, a big presence, either way, but that authenticity is really important to connect with others and to be able to build trust, build influence, and just have meaningful relationships.
And so that authenticity thing is really important, and I think when we're not confident in who we are, being authentic is very challenging.
Because if I'm not confident in who I am, and I don't understand who I am, I'm not connected to myself, then I might feel like I need to be somebody else in every situation.
Because I just don't feel I know who I am.
And that can be off putting.
And I know I've worked with people where You just don't know what you're gonna get because they don't have that consistent way of being.
And so, there is a little bit of discomfort there as far as, Okay, which, you know, which Jamie am I gonna get today?
Yeah.
Or how's she going to be with this thing going on?
Because I just never know.
It's a little bit, it kind of keeps you on your toes.
It's not as comfortable.
Cheryl Johnson: Yeah, and I think in the world we live in overall, authenticity is really lacking because I always tell people, you know, unfortunately, I think from the time we're young, we're conditioned to conform.
And now I'm not saying we let our kids run wild and don't have rules and guidelines, don't, you know, anybody out there mistake me for saying this.
Like you think, you know, allowing your kids to not necessarily challenge you, but allowing your kids to, to say, hey, mom, why did you say that?
Or, you know, and then you develop those skills when you're young, and then you can transfer them into.
When you go to school, and maybe you can have that kind of relationship with the teacher.
The best teacher I ever had when in high school was a teacher and I loved him to death.
I've always been very politically minded, and I, you know, took, we were required to take a government class in ninth grade.
And he and I were on opposite ends of the spectrum.
I mean, we couldn't have been farther apart, but he treated me with respect, and because he treated me with respect, and because my parents did allow me, you know, some latitude to kind of push back, I felt comfortable pushing back and saying, well, I don't agree with you on that particular thing, and you know, politics and religion are going to make enemies of everybody, right?
Right.
And I ended up being an aide for him for the next three years and he challenged me and but I felt comfortable with him challenging me.
And, you know, I took his feedback to heart, even when I didn't agree with it, I didn't like it, you know, and maybe it was because it was a political thing, but maybe it was because he didn't like the way I wrote this paper, or, you know, I needed to communicate better, or I didn't use good resources, you know, different types of things.
And so, I learned that it's okay to push back.
It's okay to say, I, what did you mean?
Why?
Now, I will admit it's a little different story, you know, when my husband will tell you, he goes, I have to be so careful around you all the time.
I have really thin skin, you know, I'm like, yeah, it's a little different when it's your, you know, somebody you're really, Yeah, right.
Invested in.
But I think that's what we need to do as leaders is, just like my teacher did, we don't have to agree.
Jamie Mann: I think we should assume we won't agree.
Right.
As soon as we start realizing, like, why would I just assume we're all going to agree?
Think of how different we all are, right?
So how can we encourage productive conversation?
Cheryl Johnson: And I think that starts by allowing people to be authentic.
Not forcing them to conform because once we allow them to be authentic, then they're going to feel more comfortable pushing back and you can imagine.
It's been many years ago that I was in high school and had this teacher, but the last real.
Long term job I had was right before covid.
And I was at the University of California and I always, he was my favorite boss in the whole world.
I got hired to be an instructional designer.
When I got there, I did very little instructional design.
I was there, I think, a year and a half and, but he asked me to do all kinds of things that I'd never done before, like data analytics.
Instructional design data analytics.
Yeah, if I'm analyzing data about training, maybe, but no, not procurement data, you know, kind of thing.
Then, you know, I want you to take these kids under because it was at the University of California.
So we had these student interns and nobody else wanted to, you know, manage them.
So he's Oh you go manage.
I'm a contractor, why am I managing them?
Yeah, but because.
You know, and I would push back and be like, I don't know how to do that, what, I, that wasn't what I was hired to do.
It wasn't that I'm not unwilling to do it, I just want you to know that you're pushing me outside my comfort zone.
And he's no problem, I have confidence that you can do it.
And I was like, okay, I loved that job.
Jamie Mann: Right.
Cheryl Johnson: That's one of those jobs I woke up every morning.
As a matter of fact, I was in California living in Virginia.
I spent three weeks in California and one week in Virginia, which my husband was traveling a lot, so it wasn't that big of a deal.
But it was just like every time I got on that plane to go back there, I was like, I'm excited.
Right.
Jamie Mann: And so, you know, the idea that specific leader communicated and obviously made you feel like you got this I know you can do it.
I'm assuming that it was a guy, he.
He was very it sounds like probably optimistic, hopeful, kind of uplifting, like all of that is so important to keep people feeling excited and happy.
And even when you have hard days, when you have that sort of energy around, it makes the hard days okay.
Cheryl Johnson: And not only that, I mean, there was plenty of times I would come up to him.
I'd be like, Oh, I'm really challenged by these students or whatever.
And he laughs.
I wrote a book called The Ambition Quotient.
It's all about managing people, believe it or not.
And he'd laugh at me because he also was a publisher on the side and he published my book.
So he had read it and he'd just laugh at me.
He goes, go back and read your book.
Jamie Mann: Yeah.
Take some of your own medicine there, Cheryl.
Cheryl Johnson: I had that kind of relationship where he felt comfortable and I would put my Excel spreadsheet together and I'd go show it to him and he'd be like, no, that's not even close.
And I'm like, and he's let me sit down.
And one time he's I really don't have time to be showing you all this.
So there's a guy over in IT that's really good at this.
Right.
He'll take
Jamie Mann: you through it.
Cheryl Johnson: Why, I never, in all my years of working contract jobs and other W 2 jobs and things it didn't seem that hard to be, for him in particular, to be that way.
Right.
It does seem to be hard sometimes for people.
Jamie Mann: Yeah, it does.
And sometimes, you know, ego can get in the way, you know, many times there can be leadership kind of challenges when, you know, let's say I, I really don't feel comfortable relying on anybody else in their expertise, but at the same time, it seems crazy to think.
One person would know everything.
But sometimes that's how people show up.
I have all the answers, right?
You don't worry your pretty little head.
Look to me for all the things.
But I just find that puts a kind of a barrier between people too.
Because realistically, we are going to work better together when we are able to rely on each other for the certain strengths and talents and bits of knowledge that we have, because you're going to have different strengths and experience and knowledge and bringing that to me versus me having something different.
And so when we put all that together in a way that you feel valued and Included and like you belong and you've got the good feels.
When I say, gosh, Cheryl, that was so awesome.
When you put that report together for me, I had no idea how to do that.
You've made my life so much easier.
Right?
When I can say that to you, you've been able to use this talent you have.
You feel good because I've really, I really appreciated it.
And then that's how we work well together.
But when I think, well, Cheryl, she doesn't know how to do this.
Cheryl just started with us.
I'll figure it out.
I'm the big boss here.
It's that's what puts barriers in between us.
And that's when you're going to go, I don't I don't know about this Jamie, there's just something about her.
I don't know.
Cheryl Johnson: Yeah.
Why'd she even hire me?
Why'd she bring me here?
Jamie Mann: So it's like all of that stuff.
It's very simple.
It's, it is simple, but sometimes it's tricky to consistently show up in a way that's human, because that feels a little bit scary.
Cheryl Johnson: Yes, it does.
Jamie Mann: So, yeah.
Cheryl Johnson: Well, I think in summary, I thought if I were to walk away from this conversation with one key idea, it's that authenticity rules.
Jamie Mann: Yeah.
Yeah, and I would just like to obviously state the point Just to be 100 percent clear, is that is not easy to do also when we are in an environment when we are underrepresented.
There is no way around it.
If I am, say, the only female in a very male dominated company, who perhaps doesn't, appreciate different viewpoints, it's going to be pretty hard for me to show up authentically.
So I just want to put that out there because if anyone's listening going, Oh, that's real nice.
Okay.
Sounds good.
It sounds good.
And it's going to be tricky depending on where we're working and where we are.
And my hope is that as more people are committed to sort of leveling up their leadership and looking at themselves to see what can I bring.
To the table to make everything better for everybody in our team.
I'm hoping that the more people do that consistently.
Right, we are going to get to a place where people can truly be themselves in the workplace.
And they feel like they belong.
Cheryl Johnson: Yeah.
And it's because we spend so much of our lives in the workplace.
Right.
It's important.
Right.
It's really important.
And so on that note, I appreciate your time today.
Thanks so much.
Yeah,
Jamie Mann: thanks
Cheryl Johnson: Cheryl.
All right.