Intro: Nightmare, revisited.
Let Me Run This By You: Gina's petty bullshit.
Interview: We talk to the co-Artistic Director of
Steppenwolf Theatre,
Glenn Davis, about the
Stratford Festival,
King James,
You Got Older, The Christians, being a producer with
Tarell Alvin McCraney,
Anna D. Shapiro,
Audrey Francis,
Rajiv Joseph,
Alana Arenas, coming from a political family, pay equity, DEI,
Seagull,
Downstate, regret.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Polizzi. We
1 (11s):
Went to theater all together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
3 (16s):
Years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it
1 (20s):
All. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Yeah, because the Handmaid's tale came true since we last talk.
2 (36s):
Oh my God. I was just preparing to say to you my new favorite party question, not that I ever go to parties is what country are you going to move to when they ask you to be a handmade? Because I think the trick is the timing, you know, like there's going to be a point of no return,
1 (52s):
Right? You could
2 (54s):
Go to,
1 (54s):
Yeah, I guess I could, I feel like things might be worse there in some ways, but not eventually. Maybe not like now you're right. It's a timing thing, because right now it might be worse. But in about, within a couple of years, it could be better. So you're right. It's a timing thing. So maybe the idea is to like get passports. Well, the problem is when you get one passport, you have to turn in another, I think, unless you're a secret double agent and doing illegal things, like, I don't know that you can be a duel. Oh, I'm confused. We need, that's what we need a guest on that knows about passports.
2 (1m 32s):
Well, I don't know anything about passports, but I will say I, the reason that I would be allowed to have dual citizenship in Italy is because I can prove, you know, that my ancestors came from there. So I probably the same thing is true for you
1 (1m 50s):
Only
2 (1m 50s):
Have to go back one generation immigrants lady
1 (1m 54s):
Over here.
2 (1m 55s):
Right?
1 (1m 55s):
Right. Yeah. It's interesting. I, yeah, I, there are a lot of, I mean, this whole thing has been this whole overturning Roe vs. Wade has been, it has been horrific. And also because I've come from things from this and as you do too, like the psychological lens is trauma lens. I'm like, okay. The reactions, especially on social media have been wild. So what I'm noticing is it's even more hand Handmaid's tailie in that people then other women aren't then sort of policing other people's responses to this.
1 (2m 37s):
Meaning people are like, well, I don't know why you're shocked. So instead of saying, yes, you can have your reaction. People are mad that women are shocked. Other women are like, well, what did you think was going to happen? We, and I'm like, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is part of the deal. Like let people have their responses, let them, so I am not shocked, but that does not mean that it hurts any less or that it, it is my job to tell someone that their outrage is not justified or not appropriate.
2 (3m 15s):
I mean, that's like, that's like telling a little kid, well, your dad hits you every time he gets drunk. What's why are you so surprised? You know, it's like, well, that doesn't make it hurt any less. That doesn't make me any less fearful. The feeling that I have in my body right now is the feeling that I had on election night in 2016. You know, I don't know if I ever told you my story about that, but just like every other reasonable person in the world, I completely assumed Hillary Clinton would win. And I wore my little pants version of a pantsuit to vote. I came home and I had, I didn't invite anybody over, but I made, I had like snacks, like it was a super bowl. And I put up a big piece of paper like that paper we wrote on when we were doing our, our TV show and with a map and I was gonna, I was marking the electoral votes, teach my kids about the electoral college.
2 (4m 10s):
And it's like, and it's just starts going, okay, well, that's not, that's not too bad. And then, and pretty early on, I realized what was happening. And I became immediately exhausted. And I went up to my bed and I fell asleep. And in the middle of the night, I rolled over to check my phone and I saw the confirmed, the worst had happened. And now I have that feeling again. I have that feeling of like, there's no hope.
1 (4m 40s):
This
2 (4m 40s):
Is, this is all bad.
1 (4m 43s):
I, I, I totally hear you. I, miles is famous for saying that. I knew that Trump was gonna win. And I did not, of course, but what I knew was when I went to the polls, it was the weirdest thing. There was this old, weird white guy, and this was in Evanston still. And this old, weird white guy in Evanston, which is very, very, very democratic. But he was handing out these flyers that were like very pro-Trump and very like Trump is going to win and he should, anyway, I had this sinking feeling. I was like, oh wait, wait, wait, this is Evanston.
1 (5m 24s):
And this guy is like, really sure. And also he seems like kind of a crack pot, but kind of not. And I, there was the first time at the polls where I was like, oh no, oh no, no, no, no, no. I have a bad feeling about this. And then we went to a friend's house, big mistake for an election night situation. And as the returns started coming in, people started at the party getting drunker. And so getting sadder and getting crazier and saying things like, well that this is fine. Like I'll just move to Italy or I'll just move to. But like, it was like the, the, the denial and the alcohol mixing was really, really, really, really depressing.
1 (6m 8s):
And I was like, I got to get out of here. And so we left before it was called, of course. And, and we, and it was, but I did have this sinking feeling when, when that, when the dude at the, it wasn't at the polls, it was like, I had gone to whole foods afterwards. It's right. And this guy was like putting leaflets on everyone's car that was like, basically get ready for Trump. And I was like in a good way. And I was like, oh shit. If this is happening at Evanston, we've got a problem area. So I wasn't shocked either, but I was very dismayed. And the feeling I have now is that like, literally, I feel like, like I kind of have a migraine today and I feel like I've had a migraine since 1975. That's kind of the feeling I have.
1 (6m 49s):
Like every time something like this happens, I feel like, oh, this feeling again, I have this feeling that I am exhausted and my head hurts and yeah. And then online, it's just a cesspool and some things are great and people are organizing. And, but some things are just, you know, a lot of people we all, as humans get, we just love to start censoring people's feelings and emotions about a tragedy.
2 (7m 19s):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But also that behavior is just like, I am trying to control you because I feel so out of control of myself. And I kind of like, doesn't even really register that much to me. But on Saturday I went to a rally and, you know, just like about 20 minutes from my house. And it's always a good feeling to do something when, when you feel like there's nothing to do. So that was great. And there was about a hundred people there. So that was great. And the, the person who was organizing it was a woman. So she, she literally said the very first words, but it was just to introduce this next speaker, who was a man.
2 (8m 6s):
And then after that was another man. And then after that was another man. So it was five men spoke in a
1 (8m 11s):
Row about this.
2 (8m 16s):
Yeah. Well, okay. So in the moment, the first person who spoke was our Senator Richard Blumenthal. Okay. That, Hey, he came here, that's pretty great. And he, and he has a very good record of voting the way that I agree with for women's rights, people's rights, human rights. So that felt okay. And then his son is also in politics, his
1 (8m 45s):
Son.
2 (8m 46s):
So then his son spoke and his son gave this speech that I could tell, like, I could tell them he did this thing. Or if like he was mimicking the cadence of how political speeches go, where you say three sentences on the fourth sentence, you, you get louder because that's when everybody's going to applaud. But then nobody applauded.
1 (9m 8s):
And he
2 (9m 8s):
Was real confused. He was real confused anyway, but by the fourth man who got up did say, I think I'm the fourth man in a row to be speaking here. You know, he was kind of at least trying to acknowledge it. And I'm of two minds because on the one hand, I think thank God that there are men in positions of power, who, who do agree with, you know, caudifying row, but at the same time, in a more like, step, take a step back way. I'm just going like, yeah, but this is the problem. This is the problem. This is the problem that only your voice matters.
1 (9m 51s):
Well, I think it, for me, it's what I call in LA, at least the giving tents to the houseless situation. So we're giving tends to it's the exact same thing. Right. We're giving tends to people that have no home. Okay. So they have shelter now. Okay. But what, what are we going to really get down to the real issue of what's happening here? So, so
2 (10m 15s):
Yeah. Why are they homeless and what are the services that they, okay,
1 (10m 18s):
Why are we not asking the big questions? And I think we, as people are asking the big questions, but the answers are so going to have to change the way the empire works, that nobody is going to, we, we're not really answering the questions. Right. So I think there's right at the, every I saw this and I don't know if this is accurate, but I saw something that the average, the empire last 250 years, and we're at 2 45
2 (10m 51s):
Talk motherfucker. Yeah.
1 (10m 54s):
So, so I feel like, yeah, people are very afraid to talk about civil war. People are afraid, look, it's a scary thing. And, and, and Nope, Nope, nobody really wants that, but I don't understand where else we're headed. So, so while I don't like it, it's the same thing with the, with the response of people while I don't like that this is happening, it is happening. So I'm going to just say, okay, like, I, I, I, I am not, I don't have any face that we are interested in doing anything else, but, but leaping towards extinction.
1 (11m 39s):
That's how I feel like, I'm not sure what else we're going to do because I'm, I'm looking at facts and I'm looking at what's happening in, in, you know, obviously climate change wise. And I'm like, oh, we're, we're making choices. And right. And also people are probably going to be like, oh, well, there are people doing good work. And that is true. There are a lot of people doing good work. It's just seems like the people that are making decisions are the people, you know, with the most power are not doing good work are doing, I don't know what they're doing, but they're, they're, they're doing capitalism and what's best for, for, for their pocket.
1 (12m 19s):
And that's. Yeah.
2 (12m 21s):
But we, even
1 (12m 22s):
Though it's about money,
2 (12m 23s):
It's about money. And it's also about it's about money and it's about getting reelected because the, because the point of, you know, the reason that all these men's, they were all politicians and they were just, all right, it's all running for reelection. And that's the other thing is miss me with your false, like, I'm not saying to anybody on that stage had false promises, but there's quite a lot of good politicians, you know, as good as they can be, who run on these campaign promises. And they never deliver because they have a hard time, you know, getting their, their fellow senators and so forth to agree with them.
2 (13m 3s):
But yeah, now we're being selected out. I mean, like, there's just really no other way to look at it. And I guess I could say, I guess we deserve it.
1 (13m 19s):
Let me run this by you.
2 (13m 27s):
However, all of this doesn't mean that I don't still get involved in petty bullshit. Like I did.
1 (13m 35s):
Well, tell me, tell me all about that's fantastic.
2 (13m 38s):
We have this God damn fucking bitch of a neighbor that I, I mean, she's just the repository for my rage right now. You know, it's like, it's not really about her, but she she's, you know, she's the person who, when we first moved into this house, very friendly came over, introduced herself. We had kids similar ages, she's at our house for a while. Chatting. She leaves, she calls me 20 minutes later to, to, in an alarmed fashion to tell me that my children who at the time were six and eight or whatever it had had crossed the street without me there.
2 (14m 21s):
And that this was obviously going to be a big problem for me. And I, I mean, that just kind of sealed the deal. We, we tried to be friends. She, she started one of these multi-level marketing. She was selling jewelry. I bought her dumb ass jewelry, you know, and it's just been one thing after the other. And, and she's like the nosy neighbor. Who's never missing an opportunity to tell everybody what they should and shouldn't be doing. And she has these two really out of control dogs that just bark constantly. And she walks them or attempts to walk them. And she, and no other dogs basically can be on the street, you know, without there being a big kerfuffle.
2 (15m 7s):
Now, when I'm walking my dog and I see her coming, I turn the other way a, because I really don't want to see her, but also because I don't want to go through the whole thing of my dog. Yeah. It's all thing. Right. Well, my husband doesn't avoid things like that.
1 (15m 22s):
Well, I've miles wouldn't even notice until it was too late, but I feel like Aaron is more like, I'm going to just walk my dog.
2 (15m 30s):
He's like, it's my fucking street and my dog. And we still live in an America where you're free. You're free to walk your dog. So she's walking. So he's walking the dog and she's coming towards and she's doing her usual thing. And then she said, and this was not the first time she said this. She tells him it's not really a great time to be walking your dog right now as if like she gets to go to
1 (15m 54s):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
2 (15m 58s):
Well, my in-state, I really wanted to go fly into a rage over to her house. And I, luckily I didn't do that. I did go for a walk and walk by her house, both my fingers up. And I thought, well, if I saw her at my dream,
1 (16m 14s):
What I would say is
2 (16m 15s):
I tell you to take those Stella and dot necklaces and choke and hang yourself with them. But they're so cheap. All you'd get is a green net.
1 (16m 23s):
Yeah. You just break it. Wouldn't do the job. It wouldn't do the job. Oh my.
2 (16m 31s):
But in a way, you know, having these petty things is sort of life affirming right. In this weird way. It's like at the end of the day, you're just like, oh yeah, it's just, you don't like your neighbor. People sometimes don't like their neighbors. It's not as much.
1 (16m 46s):
What did, what did your husband say to her? Nothing.
2 (16m 50s):
I mean, he was just like, I I'm walking my dog. I mean, like, I think he was just so flummoxed by the whole thing. Like, is this person really trying to tell me God? Yeah. That's yeah. I think, I think he was done
1 (17m 5s):
The audacity. Yeah. I, I, I, yeah, I hate, I hate her already. And I also think the real issue is fucking, you feel terrible that you cannot control your dogs and you have it done with the rest of us dumb, but responsible fuckers have done, which is train our goddamn dogs. Doris, right now I'm paying an, a great amount of money. So she can go to fucking Frenchie school so that when she sees
2 (17m 35s):
Her all about
1 (17m 37s):
God, so she doesn't jump on people and she doesn't do well. Okay. So when we Doris is, so I did not understand that when even, okay. So Frenchies are bred to be completely dependent on humans. Okay. So like, meaning back in the day, they're not the kind of dog that's bred to go out on their own. They're highly dependent. They're like needy fucking things. Right. Okay. Great. But that doesn't mean what I'm understanding is they still need pack training because the pack, we are not their pack. It's so funny. Like I am not a dog and miles is not a dog. We don't understand dog.
1 (18m 18s):
And so even these like sort of boot, you know, like fancy bougie dogs need pack training, which I was so Cesar Milan always says like, you know, like Eden, these designer ass dogs need fricking socialization. And I thought that meant she just needed to be around people. And like, she needs to be around dogs. That will correct her. And so there is this guy who's obsessed with dogs that lives in, in the miracle mile. I thought it was west Hollywood. I don't know where I am. Anytime I cross over I'm like anywhere is away from Pasadena. So my friend was like, listen, there's something called the school. And they also have like Frenchie Fridays and they ha it's like a very Frenchie centric dog school.
1 (19m 6s):
And they bring in this trainer, that's a protege of Cesar Milan, but everyone can say their approach. I could say I'm a protege of Cesar Milan probably. But anyway, and they play Tibetan singing bowls for the dogs and they get them to calm down and they, and it's a lot of Frenchies, there's like 10 Frenchies that go there. And so I said, all right, I'm going to give it a chance because Doris is great. She's just a tip, very typical Frenchie. And she gets very excited and she doesn't know how to calm herself down. So she pees inside and she will jump on you. And she's really mouthy still at a year. And so I was like, okay, well, like I need to, and, and she she's missing.
1 (19m 48s):
You can tell like, she's missing. Ideally we'd get another dog, but there's no way in hell in a one bedroom. That's this small. I would ever get another dog, especially not another Frenchie. So I was like, what, what to do, what to do. And this guy is like, that runs, this school will send you recaps of the class today in Frenchie class we learned. And then he will explain all the things that we learned. I'm not there. He's not, it's the dogs. It's like so funny. And then there's pictures. So she's doing great, but it is a schlep. It is 35 minutes. Each way. It is expensive. It is.
1 (20m 28s):
So what I am saying is those of us who fucking don't want to be like your neighbor and are like, you know what? I'm going to confront the fact that my dog needs some work and that whatever that we are doing miles and I isn't quite cutting it. And she's not behaving in a way that's going to make her friends like with people or with dogs. What do I do about it? I don't say to other people, it's your fault.
2 (20m 52s):
Somebody else's fault.
1 (20m 54s):
I have no goddamn money. I'm spending the money and the time.
2 (20m 59s):
And there you have hit upon one of the very hardest parts of parenting, which is, and you've talked about this before on the podcast, getting feedback, negative feedback about your child is so demoralizing you at once, feel embarrassed and enraged. You feel enraged with the person. You feel enraged with your kid, for With yourself, for not doing a good enough job, such that this wouldn't be happening. Yeah. It's really, really hard. And everybody has to get to the point that you have already gotten to luckily, which is okay, well, I'm this, the good news is the bad news is I'm the source of this problem.
2 (21m 44s):
And the good news is I'm also the solution to,
1 (21m 46s):
I think we don't know how to make a lot of us. We don't know how to make friends. Right? So this lady, instead of being like, oh my God, maybe I should just like, say to people, you know, like she could do so many things. People can do so many. She could send a letter to each person on the block say, look, I have these asshole dogs. I don't know what to do. If you have fucking suggestions, besides euthanizing them, let me know. I would love that. Or can you help me? Or I'm so sorry. They're assholes. I don't know what to do. I'm I'm working on it or I'm stuck. Just let people know. And then you make friends. And then when you walk down the street, people are gonna be like, oh, there's those crazy asshole dogs.
1 (22m 29s):
Just she's she's trying at least,
2 (22m 31s):
Right. Yes. There is a universe in which a person has crazy dogs like that. And they allow, first of all, they allow for the rehab. They allow us to acknowledge the reality that it's your crazy dog. I mean, that's, that's the other thing I feel like, I feel like we're stopped at level one, which is she won't acknowledge that her dogs are crazy level two. She won't do something about it. You know,
1 (22m 59s):
I'd like level one. It's like level one is like you were saying it like it takes some, you got to just really get to the point of being accepted, having acceptance that what things are going to go horribly wrong. And a lot of times it's your fault in some way. And a lot of times it isn't, but they still go wrong. And like, I just, I was talking about this a lot yesterday choice points when we're at choice points. And I think it's really easy to be like, oh, that, you know, people choose bad things to happen to them. I think that's garbage people choose to be with, you know, houseless, garbage. I don't buy that. But what I do buy is I know plenty of people with inner and outer, especially outer resources that don't date.
1 (23m 45s):
They, they do not meat choice points with any sort of ownership and accountability. So they're just like, they don't have, they think they have no choices, but to be an asshole, it's not true. It's not true many times they're you could have my friend taken a turn neighbor, whoever politician and said, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait, I have a choice here. So it's interesting. It's like, just because there is this sort of bullshit, a Wu movement to like over to like blame the victim. Yeah. That's true. But I think there is also a willingness to excuse behavior because people feel that people are limited.
1 (24m 26s):
Fuck you limited where you don't like, you know, so there's, there's a line. And I think that we, that the black and white thinking of like, you know, all good, all bad. All everyone chooses everything. It's not, it's just not the way it works. But like, yeah. So I,
2 (24m 43s):
No, it's not the way it works. You're so your thing recently is all about choice points. My thing is all about dissociation and, and I feel, I think I've hit on in the past. I've always said the reason I don't get along with anybody in my town is like, it's all Puritan and whatever. And that's probably true too, but there's another deeper thing. Because a lot of times I will meet somebody and I was trying to define what's the immediate thing that within seconds of talking to somebody, you can proceed. Cause you feel this is a, this is going to, this might go in a good direction for me it's they don't seem completely dissociated.
2 (25m 25s):
Right. And people are going to hear that and think, I mean, a bunch of people with multiple personalities, that's not what I
1 (25m 31s):
Mean. Yeah.
2 (25m 34s):
I really just mean the kind of person who says, for example, you know, my dogs are not crazy. My dogs are not crazy and my dogs are not crazy or my life is not in shambles. My marriages I'm shambles. My kids are not whatever, like whatever it is, there's a lot of, you know, people have to do so much work to hold up. These myths about themselves and their families and their lives. And I get it because to be in touch with the reality of one's life or one situation is completely overwhelmed.
1 (26m 7s):
So painful too. It's so painful.
2 (26m 11s):
It's so painful. But so, but like I need, in order to have a thing with a human, I need to be able to look at them and have some vague semblance that they're not in another, on another planet now. Sometimes I get past that and I, and it's like, okay, but I still just don't like you, right. For whatever reason. But I think that's the majority of the people I encounter in life or in some type of a dissociative place. And maybe it's because of the pandemic and maybe it's because things have been a shit show for the last several years, but that w that thought really clarified for me.
2 (26m 51s):
Okay. Yeah. This is the, this is like the stumbling block I have with a lot of people. I have a friend right now who, I mean, she's, she's kind of a friend, but she she's one of these people, like the day we met, she started referring to me as her best friend kind of, kind of a thing. And she likes to drink a lot. And so I kind of pulled back on the relationship. And during the pandemic, I had a pretty good reason to, and after that she's been contacting me and she's just not really kind of getting the hint. So I decided to take the opportunity the last time she contacted me to say, well, you know, like things aren't really going that great, like this and this and this, no response, no response, because what she wants for me is to validate the myth that she doesn't drink too much.
2 (27m 41s):
And that everything is fine in her life. Right. And when I want to talk about how things are not fine, she's not interested.
1 (27m 49s):
Yeah. That's really a telltale sign. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that it is. Yeah. And then I take it a step further, which is in my brain, which is I get angry because I have lived, I have spent so much time, energy, sweat, and, you know, sweat equity in looking at the painful stuff that I just can't perpetuate the circus show that that it's okay.
2 (28m 27s):
Well, today we are talking to Glen Davis. Glenn Davis is one of the hardest working busiest people we have ever met. He is the artistic director of Steppenwolf theater in Chicago. He's just closed a production of king James, which had also been a Steppenwolf. He just closed it at the mark taper forum in Los Angeles. He has a production company with Trell, Alvin McCraney, and they've got 10 projects on the slate right now. He's a writer, he's a director, he's a performer, he's a producer. And he is an artistic director. So please enjoy not our, it was just boss, boss, his conversation with Glenn Davis.
4 (29m 22s):
I gave it to my office. You survive theater school, but mostly I want to ask what's happening with you right now. Tell me what are you doing and what are you feeling and how are you today?
5 (29m 34s):
Right now? I am doing great. I am doing a play here at, in LA, at the mark taper forum called king James. We have been here for over a month and we closed this Sunday.
4 (29m 50s):
All right. So here's my question to you. We talked to our first attempt and it goes so well in terms of our tech, but so you went to the theater school. I just finished teaching at a theater school. I don't know if I'm going back. They have a new Dean coming in. Yeah. Who? I had a meeting who asked to have a meeting and she was lovely if you had, I'm asking this
5 (30m 11s):
Question.
4 (30m 12s):
Yes. So if you had to go back, would you have gone to a theater conservatory? Would you do it again? Would you go to a conservatory for acting training to
5 (30m 24s):
Theater school specifically, or just one
4 (30m 26s):
In general and then to the theater school specifically?
5 (30m 30s):
Yes. Yes. I would say at the very least, even if I didn't learn anything, I made some of my strongest friendships at the theater school.
4 (30m 40s):
You, you have, you have not only kept in touch, but you are thriving alongside people that you went to school with. So you would have done done it again. Okay. Favorite? What do you, what kind of art do you want to make my friend? Like, what is your, if you had, I'm asking this to all my, our guests, we just have to someone. And I said like, what are we doing here on this planet? And what kind of art do you want to make?
5 (31m 6s):
I guess I would say art that is impactful and challenges. Its audiences and challenges are sort of moral and ethical codes. Our identity, our idea of what we think is right or wrong in the world.
4 (31m 24s):
Can you say more about that?
5 (31m 25s):
Yeah. I did a play a few seasons ago called downstate and that this does exactly right.
4 (31m 33s):
Yeah. Intense. Yeah. Intense I side. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's, it's about people that live in like a halfway house.
5 (31m 42s):
Yeah. They're in a group home. It's five sex offenders who have, who have been released from prison, but into a group home. And so they have to figure out how to, you know, assimilate back into normal society. And you go into that play, you know, with your most folks have, I would imagine, have their own, very strong opinions about sex offenders, you know, pedophiles full stop, you know, and then this play the best way I can explain it is that it makes you reconsider what you think of those people when they, when they sort of visceral level, you, you go in thinking, okay, I know I don't need to explore this.
5 (32m 29s):
And then you do even just for, you know, this two hour play. And even if it's just a minor shift, it feels like you've gone a far way out of the way to give back maybe to the same place. But you, you know, Bruce Norris wrote this play and he talks about how he wrote the play because he wanted to, he wanted folks to challenge. He wanted to challenge the audience's ability to, to their capacity for forgiveness.
4 (32m 59s):
Yeah. I mean, I'm obsessed with the idea of who gets to be forgiven and why, and what happens when yeah. People make choices. And I think w you know, working with felons when they got out of prison, I learned that most of us well. Yeah. I, I truly believe that most of us are like one bad choice away. A lot of times from being an exact same position as my clients were in, or as the people in that player. And, and it's not as simple as we think, but, you know, I, yeah, I agree. So, okay. So you want to make that kind of art. Do you feel like you made that kind of art at the theater school at all?
4 (33m 40s):
Did you,
5 (33m 43s):
I think at the theater school, I was less concerned with making art and more concerned with managing the cut system. If we had a cut system and then, you know, just being a good actor, it was, it was primarily, primarily about self. It was less about storytelling. I didn't, I don't think I got to that place in my life career until a few, few years out of school. You do some work and you figure out it's not simply about me and how good I am in it, or you know, how much money I'm making.
4 (34m 18s):
Yeah. Did you, when you did the showcase, did you the show? Okay, so I was just the, the, the kids, the kiddos were just here during the showcase. There was no real showcase in person which sucked this year, but they came to LA and it brought back memories. And so I was going to ask you about your experience. Did you go to New York LA and do Chicago? Okay. What was it like for you? What material do you remember the material you did? And what was the, what was your experience of that in terms of interest reps?
5 (34m 51s):
I don't remember what scene I did for showcase, but I did, I did do a scene. I remember I was playing, I had a basketball at his house playing basketball at the same time. I should figure out what play that was, but I did that. And then I got, I guess, a healthy amount of interest in New York and LA, and I knew from showcase even before that, that I knew I was, I was leaving Chicago.
4 (35m 18s):
Okay. This is very exciting to me to, to, so you, you, w w how did you know that, like, when you went there and you did your scene and afterwards, they said, so, and so wants to meet with you or these people, like you, you just, like, I gotta get outta here, or what was the feeling like? My next move is,
5 (35m 37s):
Well, I was cold in Chicago, so I had just done a Chicago winter, and I wasn't, I was determined not to do another. And I think for a long time, I thought I'd go to New York. What happened was I ended up getting a, managed, signing with a manager here in LA, right out of showcase, and then decided, okay, I'm going to go to LA. And then I booked this other job. It took me to Canada for two years, but I kept my LA manager. And then I moved to LA right after this thing called the Stratford festival.
4 (36m 10s):
Of course. Yeah. Two years. Yeah. Holy shit. So you went right out of school to Canada. Yeah. Do you, how was that?
5 (36m 20s):
It was great. It was, it was this sort of things that I didn't anticipate I'd ever do. I didn't even know where Stratford was when I got the job. And so I went into, it was called the Birmingham conservatory for classical theater training at Stratford festival. And so I go up and I studied for 20 weeks in the winter and in Stratford, Ontario. And then you go into the season as an actor. So I was up there for two years
4 (36m 52s):
And then, okay. So you're doing that for two years where you kept your manager and then what happens after Canada
5 (36m 58s):
Moved to LA
4 (36m 59s):
You just straight up moved here? Yup. Okay. And then, and then you back and forth, or you were here for a while. What years are your year here? Youngster. What year was this? Not that long ago.
5 (37m 8s):
I moved to LA and then I, I was, I think I did submit two thousands. Then I went to New York to do a play. I want to say something like 2008. And then from then on, I started going back and forth between New York and LA. I did that for probably brought till about 2000, 2014, something like that.
4 (37m 44s):
And then what happened? I'm fascinated. You, you have a story that I don't for theater school grads, that this doesn't usually happen. So usually what we notice is you do the showcase, you pick a place and you stay there for a long time, but you've been moving around. So then, okay. So after you did back and forth, how did you land? I mean,
5 (38m 4s):
Well, I was living in LA. I had done a play in New York, and so I thought to myself, I wanted to be able to go back and forth. So I still kept my, my home in LA, I guess I call it. And I would just, I got a roommate in New York and I would just go back and forth between the two. And so I did a play in New York in 2008, then I did another in 2011. And, and then I think I will probably let that place go. New York around 2014.
4 (38m 38s):
Yeah. And then since then, I've just
5 (38m 40s):
Been, then I was in LA and then I D I went back to Chicago in 2013 to do a play at Steppenwolf. And then I got a place in Chicago. So I replaced my place in New York with a place in Chicago. And I would just go back and forth between Chicago and LA.
4 (38m 57s):
Okay. So now, now you run the joint with, with a bunch of, with Audrey and probably some help, some other step waltz. W why do you take, why did you take that on, like, what, what, what, what happened there that you were like, this is the next thing I'm like, fascinated by the choices people make. And this was the same with my clients and the same with my characters. I write, like, how does that happen when you're going back and forth from New York or to mostly now, Chicago and LA. Yeah. And then you're like, you're, you were obviously an ensemble member I'm assuming first. Okay. And then what, how does that happen? That, you
5 (39m 36s):
Know, wow. When I was made ensemble, remember in 2017, I had just done another play a step one side. I think I did like
4 (39m 44s):
About, you got older.
5 (39m 46s):
Yeah. You got older. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. And so I did another play called the Christians and had, had a great time. And after that, I, I had started to the other part of my life. I'm a producer in television and film. So I started producing and then it just sort of became natural to me, for me to want to sort of guide projects to fruition. And so when the Steppenwolf job came up and R D Shapiro who brought me into the company announced that she was leaving and the company did a, that the company has a self-imposed mandate that an ensemble member always be the artistic director.
4 (40m 31s):
I did not know that.
5 (40m 32s):
Okay. It's only ever been on ensemble. So we did a search within the company and myself and Audrey Francis, who, you know, we got the most votes. And so,
4 (40m 44s):
Yeah.
5 (40m 44s):
Yeah. The ensemble bows down, sambal chooses the ensemble, the artistic director.
4 (40m 50s):
I did not know this. Okay. This is very fascinating to me. Okay. So you got the most votes and why two people, like, did they, has it ever been to at the same time,
5 (41m 0s):
If it has there's rumors that it was two before this there's only ever been two in a formalized setting, formalized situation. And so we decided to do it together because it's such a huge job. And both of us are actors. Yeah. Audrey is also a director. I am a producer. And so we thought, you know, to do this job, you know, most times it's directors, because, you know, it affords them the ability to still have their career outside of it for an actor. If you're running the theater. And like right now, I'm in Los Angeles doing king James.
5 (41m 41s):
Yeah. Then it, it, who, who do, who does staff go to? Who, who, who sort of running, steering the ship while I'm away or the counterpart is away. So we said, okay, if there's two of us that we can sort of outline in any given year that as long as one of us is on campus, one of us is steering the ship to the garden at any given time. Then there's a version of the second work. So we, we, we decided together that we would, we would pitch ourselves together instead of one of us doing it. And so the ensemble loved it and the board thought it was a great idea. And so they contracted both of us. And so here we are.
4 (42m 22s):
And does it go on forever and ever until you get sick of it,
5 (42m 26s):
We have to let them know we do, we do contracts. And so before the contract ends, you let them know, Hey, I want to stay on it, or I want to,
4 (42m 36s):
How's it going?
5 (42m 37s):
It's going
4 (42m 38s):
Right. Do you like it?
5 (42m 40s):
I love it. Is it
4 (42m 40s):
Hard?
5 (42m 41s):
Oh yeah. Yeah. It's hard.
4 (42m 43s):
It's fulfilling.
5 (42m 45s):
Very,
4 (42m 45s):
Yeah. Okay. Do you have any time to do anything? Do you, do you, you must because you're here. So you have, but you do a lot of things. So I guess my next question is how do you do a lot of things and managed to not lose your mind?
5 (43m 0s):
What I would say that I'm a big planner. I have a lot of help. Obviously. I have assistance. I partners, turtle album McCraney, who my, I wasn't mentioning before
4 (43m 15s):
That is to school together,
5 (43m 17s):
Went to school together. Yeah. And he is my best friend in the world. Also my producing partner,
4 (43m 23s):
Brilliant boat. But yeah, you're both very brilliant human.
5 (43m 26s):
Thank you. I appreciate that. And so we have a production company based here in LA and we're in an overall deal at universal. And so we, we, that's a partnership and we have a team, a very strong team that we produce television and film. And then at Steppenwolf, I have Audrey, who's the best partner one can ask for. And we, we, we together manage through all the, the things that are going on and step off. So, and then, you know, when I'm going to do a play, yeah. I'm constantly in communication with her constantly communication with Tarell about all the things that we're doing.
4 (44m 7s):
Oh my God. So I guess the communication is, is really the key. Okay. My question is, what would you say to like the students and my young students who are like, what kind of world am I walking into? What, in the entertainment industry, how can I take ownership over my career? What the fuck do I do? I always like to be whatever you're doing, something's going right in your career. So, which is great. And I'm not saying it doesn't take a tremendous amount of work, but I'm also saying, is there any tips or like how to manage this life? You've graduated. You've just, like you said, like, you want to, you want to make it, you want to, you, you want to earn money, want to pay the rent and still make good art.
4 (44m 56s):
How the fuck do you do that?
5 (45m 0s):
Well, you're saying w what advice I would give. Right. I would say the, one of the first questions you asked was, you know, LA or Chicago, or, you know, I would say pick the place that you'd like to live. Like a lot of times people go, oh, I got to go to LA. If I want a career, you don't have to do that anymore. You can be in London, you'll be in Toronto. You can be in new Orleans, you can Chicago. So I would Fe I would say, go to the place that makes you happiest, makes you feel like the best version of yourself or some approximation of it. And then sort of sit down. I always look at my life in terms of five-year goals and plans.
5 (45m 40s):
What do I want, what I want my life to look like in the next five years. And so sit down and make a plan. If that's to be a series regular on a TV show, then put all of your efforts towards that. If it's to be, you know, a Broadway actor, then, you know, you know, there's a path to that, presumably. So I would say, make a plan and take some risks. You know, they might not always be comfortable, but you go out and you say, at least for, at least for me, I've, I've learned the most about myself. And I really taken a risk. And lastly, I would say, particularly for actors become, you know, did this happen by happenstance with me, but my best friend in the world is a writer and a very accomplished yeah,
4 (46m 28s):
Yeah. Like not, yeah, no slouch like a brilliant one of the most brilliant. Yeah.
5 (46m 33s):
And, and I've because of that, I've, you know, our partnership I've been in almost every one of his plays I've, we've created together. He's making things for me. I would say, if you can find a creative partner partnership or ships, you know, Rajiv, Joseph is another friend of mine who we're very close friends, we've done two plays together. Now we're doing TV shows together. Like find those folks that you're like, I just like being in partnership with you. And let's, you know, it might take five, 10 years to create something together, but let's start the conversation.
4 (47m 9s):
Did you know that immediately at school, that these folks were going to, cause there's also, isn't there a woman that you also are close with, that you met?
5 (47m 17s):
Yeah. Alana arenas is my other best tool in a lot of my two best friends in the world. Okay.
4 (47m 21s):
Okay. So did you know at the, at school, at the theater school where you immediately, like, I ha I love these books and I want to make art with them, or how did
5 (47m 30s):
That? No, I don't. I don't think cause Tara wasn't a writer at the time. He was, he was an actor and a theater school a year ahead of me and Atlanta was two years ahead of me. And, but they just, they were home. I met them and I just said, oh, you're my person. And so those two have been in my life for the last, you know, 20 however many years. And those are proud. I've worked with them several times over and over. They're both supremely talented Alana was on Tyrrell's TV show called David makes man. And she was amazing in it. So I think that, yeah, I just found them as people interesting and you know, beautiful people inside and out and they just so happen to be, you know, supremely talented, but I didn't go into it looking for them like, who do I like?
5 (48m 21s):
You know? So that's, that's essentially what it was. You.
4 (48m 25s):
Okay. What kind of, you said you want to make art, like, do you, is it more that the medium doesn't matter as much as the story in terms of TV versus being in a F or working on films or working on television? Or what, what is, do you have a favorite or are you just open to telling good stories, whatever form it takes? Are you that kind of a,
5 (48m 46s):
Yeah, I think it's the, the ladder. They're very different forms to work in as an actor. I'm doing a play right now, obviously. Yeah. I get a fulfillment that I don't get in producing television and film, but also in television and film, I get a, a fulfillment there as well, where I'm the, I have, my voice means is, is hugely meaningful in the room. If it's not me making the final decision on something, you know, very close to the, the, the folks in the room who are making those final decisions. So as an actor, you're, you're coming to be a cog in a wheel, you know, or you're there to service the story in film and TV as a producer, at least you're, you're get the engine you're, you're providing the platform or the, the landscape for artists to come in and tell their stories.
5 (49m 44s):
So it's a very different fulfillment that, you know, being in one in the other. And so I love them, both. Yeah. Theater is, is where I come from from first fell in love with storytelling and the art and the craft.
4 (49m 58s):
W I can't remember. I know that your family is not, it's more of a political family, right? Yeah.
5 (50m 2s):
And in terms of politics in Chicago.
4 (50m 3s):
Yeah. Yeah. So, but not so not theater so much. Okay. And then how did you end up doing theater since you said theaters
5 (50m 12s):
You're I was on the basketball team in high school. That's right.
4 (50m 14s):
Then you realized,
5 (50m 16s):
Yeah. Yeah. I realized I just audition audition for a play randomly. And I thought, oh wow, this is, I can do this. And so I gave up sports or basketball and she said, my, I thought, I thought at the time I had a burgeoning basketball career.
4 (50m 31s):
But if you did, though, you must have had a co I mean, what you were, you said you loved it and you were good at it. You just didn't think you were good enough.
5 (50m 41s):
Yeah. I don't even think at the time I knew if I was good enough. And I probably had all the bravado that any young
4 (50m 47s):
Men
5 (50m 48s):
That I could go to the NBA, but I just fell in love with theater. I fell in love with the art form and, you know, later studying it at DePaul at other places, setting Shakespeare. I just thought I can do this for the rest of my life. So.
4 (51m 6s):
Oh. And you knew it, right? Yeah. Okay. Well, there you go. So you knew it. Okay. And then if you had to like, like the next thing you want to do, like you have, are you doing exactly? I talked to people sometimes and they're doing exactly what they want to do, or they're excited. Or sometimes they're like, no, I want to pivot. And in a year, like we talk about, you talked about five years, so what's your five-year, what do you want to do in five years in your five-year plan? Do you have any grant?
5 (51m 33s):
Yeah. Well, I think that a big part of my artistic life right now is stepping up is I'm leading the company. There are some things that industry-wide, that I would love to see changed.
4 (51m 46s):
I want to know what they are,
5 (51m 48s):
Where there's a, there's a long list
4 (51m 50s):
With one
5 (51m 54s):
More pay equity for, for people in the arts theater theater specifically. There's, there's just not, you know, you can't, most of us cannot live, let alone thrive on a theater salary. So we'd love to change that diversity equity inclusion is very important to me getting more people involved, who don't, who historically have not been a part of the theater community. I think doing king James has been sort of eye opening for me because so many people have come because they love basketball. They love LeBron, or they love sports.
5 (52m 35s):
And now they're, you know, they're coming to a play and they go with some of the first play I've ever been to. And I loved it. So I think there's a lot, a lot of work there to do.
4 (52m 46s):
And do you feel like the word beat with the pandemic and everything? Have you, have you been able to start diet? Like, are you diving in now or are you, were you in the, when did you start take over you and Andre?
5 (52m 60s):
Our first day was as artistic director was September 1st, 2021.
4 (53m 7s):
Yeah. Okay. And now what's happening? The seagull happened? No.
5 (53m 13s):
Yeah, we just, we just closed the seagull. It was, it was our first theater in the,
4 (53m 19s):
The new spaces. Is it gorgeous?
5 (53m 22s):
Or it's, it's, it's all I walk into it and I'm just blown away. And I actually get very excited about one day being able to perform in that theater. But it's this beautiful in the round space that is state of the art, these wonderfully resonant acoustics. It is. Yeah. It's, it's a playground. I love that. I love that space, but yeah, we just opened our first play. We opened, there was the seagull, an adaptation of checkoffs, the seagull by Yassin playing golf and he wrote and directed it and it, it was fantastic.
5 (54m 3s):
And yeah. So now that now that theater is open,
4 (54m 7s):
Are you, do you have any things exciting that are probably a million things that are happening, but like television or film wise or for you, or, oh yeah. Or your company or anything that, you know, what's happening.
5 (54m 21s):
We have step move, just announced this new season. So the false will start, well, we'll have that season, beginning, this fall that we're excited about. So the first season that Audra and I were able to curate ourselves, so that's exciting.
4 (54m 39s):
What does that mean? Like you're in charge. Like you have to plan the whole shit or like, so like, if you have all the plays out there, you have a literary person I'm sure. And they say, okay, this is all on the table. Yeah. And then you read them all and then does lively debate ensued what happened? Okay.
5 (54m 57s):
We have an artistic team that we go back and forth over place and we decide, you know, obviously it's
4 (55m 4s):
No.
5 (55m 5s):
Yeah. We announced our season April, I think. Okay.
4 (55m 8s):
What are you super excited? I'm married. You're probably out. So a little bit more. Okay. Do we know if you are going to be in them? Can
5 (55m 15s):
You be, or you
4 (55m 17s):
Can't. Okay.
5 (55m 18s):
I, I don't know just yet. I just don't know, like
4 (55m 24s):
Deciding.
5 (55m 25s):
Yeah, sure. Yeah. It's possible. Yeah.
4 (55m 27s):
That's going to be exciting and you're playing closes. And then when you leave here to go back to Chicago,
5 (55m 32s):
I leave here I go on vacation and then I'll go back to Chicago. And then I do a play in the fall called well downstate. Oh yeah. We do that in New York in the fall. And then we have Trella and I have 10 TV series that are in development. Yeah. Yeah.
4 (55m 55s):
Totally crap. Congratulations.
5 (55m 58s):
Very much. So
4 (55m 60s):
Tenancy develop, I guess that's how it works. Wow. Wow. Good for you.
5 (56m 5s):
So what looks to go into production on one later this year? And yeah, we're pitching shows always. And so that's, most of my days are, you know, pitching shows, working on development with our executives at universal and managing the theater. So picking plays really
4 (56m 26s):
Plays very full
5 (56m 28s):
Life and doing a play.
4 (56m 29s):
Do you love your life?
5 (56m 31s):
Yeah, I love it. Wow.
4 (56m 32s):
Okay. Do you re we, we were just had I'm in a book club and we were talking about regret. Do you believe in, what's your idea when someone says to you, what do you think about regrets? Do you have them, do you think it's bullshit? Do you think that regret is good? Because it makes us, we had a lively discussion about regret the other night here at the office.
5 (56m 51s):
What was the consensus?
4 (56m 52s):
Well, some people are like, no, there's no such thing as regret because in the moment you do the best you can with the choices you have. But I actually think regret has been helpful for me because things like I regret that I didn't do certain things. It's not about judgment for me. It's more about like, I'm S maybe it's sadness. I don't know. I regret that, like my mom and I never talked about X before she passed. Right. Or, but I don't say, and I'm an asshole because of that. I just say, I regret that. But other people are saying, no, no regrets, like live your life with no regrets. I don't know. Where do you fall on this? I don't know.
5 (57m 28s):
I think that, I think for all honest with ourselves, there, there are things that may be in our past that we wrapped that we maybe wish we had not done done in that same way. That's the sort of notion of a regret. You know, you wish you made a different choice to varying degrees, but I think that at least when most people say, because I understand the notion of, Hey, there's no regrets. You, you had to make the choice you were going to make to be the person that you go to. You're going to be, I get it. So I think that, I think more to the point for me is there are regrets. You just have to live with them. You just have to learn to live with them. And, you know, all of us decide or make a, make a choice of how we're going to sort of, how do you say it is a word I'm looking for, but how you sort of assimilate all your choices into your person,
4 (58m 25s):
Integrate that and like, become like accept them or like the least own them, maybe.
5 (58m 32s):
Okay. I did that. It is what it is. <inaudible> it is what it is. I think you're saying it is what it is. It didn't turn out in my favor, but you know, w what else was I going to do? Ah,
4 (58m 43s):
That brings me to my final. I'll let you, but what was your, her a bit of as a human, but like, what do you do when things don't go your way? How do you, cause I think a lot of people that listen to the podcast are coping with like regret and also rejection. And when things don't go your way, whatever that means, how do you as a person, as an artist, however you want to answer it, how do you get back up how do you, how do you keep going?
5 (59m 13s):
Yeah, I think that I learned this, this trick oh, years ago, where I go and I thought to myself, I'm never going to, whenever I auditioned for, yeah, I am. I am, I will not covet it. I will do everything in my power not to covet it so that if, and when I don't get it, which he usually don't, you didn't lose anything. It was never yours
4 (59m 35s):
Coveting as it is an interesting word there. Right. Cause it's like, it means sort of to try to clench or hold onto or grasp and like control. All right. So you say that to yourself?
5 (59m 47s):
Yeah. It gives me a sense of relaxation, relaxation going into the room. Look, if I get it and it could be, life-changing awesome. But if it doesn't, my life is where it is today. Awesome.
4 (59m 58s):
Part of the thing that I noticed with you is like that you've built such an awesome life anyway, that like stuff will add to it if something mindblowing comes along, but it's not as though it's the only thing going on. Right? So like you have so much going on that you seem to love that if you don't get book a job, it's not going to make the whole house fall down. Right? Like it's not the whole entirety of who you are as an artist.
5 (1h 0m 21s):
Yeah. This is, this goes back to an experience I had when I first moved to LA, I was in, I was a, an intern at a casting office and that's something I would actually suggest actors recommended they do because you get to see what the other side looks like. And I remember being in there and this, this guy comes in for this audition. He's just Emmy nominated actor at the time. And he has like four page monologue. And I'm reading with him, he's reading through it. He looks down at the pages maybe twice. And he got it the night before. So he did this enormous amount of work. He's reading through it. I'm looking down at the page, just trying to remember it. And I've just have one line of course responses.
5 (1h 1m 1s):
And he finished it. He is brilliant. He
4 (1h 1m 3s):
Finishes it.
5 (1h 1m 4s):
He did a fantastic job. He's brilliant. He gets up right away and says, well, look, thank you all. Thank you all so much and have a nice weekend or whatever. Yeah. He didn't linger. He didn't say, do you need more? He didn't say, Hey, how
4 (1h 1m 20s):
You know,
5 (1h 1m 22s):
He just left out and he did not. It seemed like something else was pulling him out of the room.
4 (1h 1m 29s):
Other
5 (1h 1m 31s):
Life, something, something else, this wasn't everything he goes out. And the director, I mean the, the casting director, there's, there's just this hush for about 10 seconds, which is a long time after somebody leaves a room after auditioning and it's all executives in the room and me and the cats. And he says the casting director, she says, the casting director says, that's why he's immune nominated. And then there's another beat or two. And then the, the lead executive says, yeah, but he's not right.
5 (1h 2m 11s):
And so that was it. And so what it taught me was even if you go in with, in your, you're doing all the right things, you're playing all the right beats are the guy. There's a version of that show in which he was fantastic and went on to write awards and
4 (1h 2m 27s):
Things,
5 (1h 2m 28s):
But he wasn't right in their estimation. So it took the pressure off of me of trying to have to be
4 (1h 2m 33s):
Right for everything. Like we can't be right for everything
5 (1h 2m 37s):
Not going to be right.
4 (1h 2m 37s):
And what's not, ours is not ours. Like you're saying like, you can covet something all you want, but if it's not meant for me, it's not coming to me,
5 (1h 2m 45s):
But it mattered to him no less because he still went in and knock their socks off as an actor. And that's the narrative that comes out of that room is that he wasn't right. But wow, he's brilliant. I can't wait to, he is right for the right for,
4 (1h 2m 58s):
And also it had quite an effect on you. And now you're telling me this story and then it'll be told on the podcast. And so it's, it matters, right? Like it's a ripple effect. So he might not have been right for that part. You know, there's a friend of mine is a casting director and she always says, you probably know her Mickey Paskal on Chicago. And she says, not yet for the person. So it is not, no, it is not there, Terry, you know, she said, not yet, it's not yours yet. Not yet for you. Not yet. And I love that because it, it sort of implies that something's coming. We just don't know when. And we just don't know what it looks like specifically, but just not yet. And I was like, oh, it's such a more, oh, it's like an open way to look at these jobs rather than just like you did with the, it's just not right for it.
4 (1h 3m 45s):
He, he was brilliant. And then, like you said, there's a version of that show with him in it, but this is not this one. Yeah. And so it's, I, I think that that's great. And I, I think young actors really need to hear that, which is not yet. And you're not going to be right for everything you can't be.
5 (1h 4m 1s):
Yeah. It took a lot of pressure off me to have to be perfect. And I just started relaxing and just, you know what, I'm gonna do the best job, my version of this, this character. And then if I get it awesome, if I don't, I haven't lost anything. Yeah.
4 (1h 4m 15s):
And I think, I think what I'm getting just from this, from this interview too, is that idea of building a life with that is full of things that I, or anyone loves to do. Not just one thing. So that if, if one thing doesn't go in one area, doesn't go like perfectly. I could still be like, thank you, have a great day. I'm going to go out and live my life. That is like really dope over here. I have family, I have whatever the things are. Great. So you're not dependent on this one. Yes. To like be okay, but I think it's, it's yeah.
5 (1h 4m 51s):
It's hard to find you to find your happiness. It's
4 (1h 4m 53s):
Just like a part of your day, right? Like it's one part of your day. And then you go on and do your things and have your conference calls with Steppenwolf and whatever, eat a sandwich or whatever. So
5 (1h 5m 3s):
Remember this one or from one friend of mine years ago said, I look at auditions as my one opportunity to act that day or to perform or to tell a story. And I had my two minutes, I go in and I do it and then I'll let it go. And I throw away the sides. And I, I, I go home.
4 (1h 5m 19s):
I mean, I think that's great. Like I think, I think taking the pressure off and also, right, it's sort of what I call, like right-sizing things, you know, like I've, I I've said before I got into rooms, like I have seen the face of hell and this is not it we're going to go in and we're gonna do it. All right. So I will let you go because you're very, you're very busy and you have a lot of things going on, but I, I just want to thank you. And I also want to say, like, I have a lot of hope. I mean, I, I love Audrey and now I adore you. And I think that the American theater has a real opportunity. The, one of the things that I'm noticing, especially in the whole two weeks that we've had in terms of the Supreme court, that w we have a lot of opportunity, like, things are really, really hard and terrible, but I also think that anytime there's something really terrible, there's also an opportunity for the counterpoint to that.
4 (1h 6m 12s):
So I'm hoping with the American theater and art in general, perhaps that maybe we can be part of that counterpoint of all the terrible shit that's going on. And I'm hoping that stepping Wolf, I can't wait to see, I'm going to see what the season is, is going to, you don't have to tell me what the season is. I'll look it up. I think you and Audrey should be in all the plays and that's probably not going to happen, but, but no, I am hopeful. I am still hopeful. Are you still hopeful about things?
5 (1h 6m 38s):
Absolutely. Yeah. I wouldn't do it if I wasn't, it's it's not a job you want to take on with a sense of hopelessness. You have to really believe in the, in the sort of prospects of the artists involved in the sort of theater landscape itself.
4 (1h 6m 54s):
And since you, do you think the same holds true for like film and television? Are you still hopeful?
5 (1h 6m 58s):
Yeah. Filming film and television have this thing, that theater doesn't and that's called money. So whether you're, you know, I know a lot of folks who are on TV shows who are, you know, maybe not creatively inspired, you know, we've heard that story a lot, but they're getting there. You know, if, if it's, if it's an exchange of dividends for their time, then they're being paid in comparison to their counterparts in other industries they're being paid handsomely. And so that brings you a sense of happiness versus a fulfilling.
4 (1h 7m 29s):
Yeah. I didn't help your family and you can at least two. So that's true. Like, I think that that's, yeah. We seem to have found a mix of the things that you love and are important to you. And I think that that's something that, that is, that is brilliant, that we don't see a lot. So I say, keep, keep on. I mean, of course you're going to keep on, but thank you for talking to
5 (1h 7m 48s):
Me.
3 (1h 7m 58s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina cheat, or the co-hosts this episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina <inaudible> for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.