Hello, I'm Jessica Samuels, welcome to A Way Forward presented by Beam Credit Union. I'd like to acknowledge this podcast takes place on the ancestral traditional and unceded lands of the Syilac Okanagan people. The topic today I've wanted to talk about for quite some time. It's it's grief, but I didn't know where to start. It was too big of a topic.

And then I heard an aspect of this topic called complex grief, and it really resonated with me. I have two people joining me today. I have Mikayla Engel. She works for CMHA Kelowna. And I have Siobhan Monahan, and she's an educator and a speaker and an author.

And they are going to talk about their work around complex grief and some of the resources that are available for those of us experiencing it. Credit Union is proud to sponsor today's episode. With deep roots in BC and a commitment to your financial journey, Beam believes wellness, mental and financial starts with support you can count on. Mikaela and Jevon, thank you so much for being here today. We wanna talk about the work that you're doing around complex grief, and we're gonna do that in a little bit.

Mikayla, I want to start with you because when I first was connected with you, and I heard this term complex grief, like some like a penny dropped for me, I was like, yes. And I will talk a little bit about that in a bit. First, though, what is complex grief?

Okay, so when we talk about complex grief, we're really not talking about like a clinical diagnosis, like prolonged grief disorder or complicated grief disorder, but really just acknowledging that people's grieving experience oftentimes does encompass complex grief. And that means that it's sort of marked by other psychological or relational factors. So those things could be trauma from the death or the loss of the person. It could be estrangement, maybe unresolved family dynamics, sudden losses or multiple losses, abuse history, substance use, disenfranchised grief, and things of that nature. And really, when we're talking about that, it's more of the natural experience and the levels to the grief that isn't necessarily marked by

severity or criteria, like a diagnosis would be. Right. And so a little bit more about that, because you said it's not a clinical diagnosis. Yet we've got complicated grief disorder and prolonged grief disorder are kind of these clinical diagnoses. So why?

Why is that the case? What are the benchmarks

for this? So prolonged grief disorder was formerly complicated grief disorder. And those are obviously going to be mental health conditions that are diagnosable in the DSM-five. So there's going to be a criteria and a framework towards those things. And oftentimes, people will see themselves within a diagnosis and sometimes they don't as well.

So when we talk about complex grief, it's more of experience and the individual experience that is all encompassing to the person and more holistic rather than following that criteria. With prolonged grief disorder and complicated grief disorder, they're going to be marked by pervasive preoccupation with the deceased, inability to accept the death itself, marked functional limitations. So those things you're not able to return to maybe what you were doing before the death or the loss. And those things are really marked by cultural or societal norms. Right.

And they have to be pervasive for more than twelve months. So oftentimes, like when we're talking about complex grief, sometimes it may fit in that prolonged grief disorder sort of demographic or complicated grief disorder. It's not necessarily that they're different things. It's just we're more talking about the experience of the individual. Any time I think that you put a label on something, there's going to be that opportunity or potentially risk for stigma.

Right. And sometimes that can deter people from actually seeing themselves in that diagnosis itself. Some people need that diagnosis and some people are seeking that to make sense of what's going on for them. But for the most part, and especially in my own personal experience, I've found that when you can kind of open up the conversation to more of that lived experience, you're putting the person in the center of that conversation rather than needing to have a severity or that criteria surrounding that.

And how did you come to this kind of interest and this idea that you want to share discussions and shed light on complex grief and recognizing that these supports were needed?

Yeah, so a lot of what I do is based on my personal lived experience as well. So I did experience a loss of my brother to suicide about three years ago. And when I was sort of navigating my own grief journey, I really realized that I would attend different grief groups and do different things. And sometimes I would leave those situations feeling more disconnected from the community, more invalidated than validated and less seen. So as I started to kind of communicate my own lived and living experiences surrounding that, other people were opening up.

And part of my role within I work for CMHA, so part of my role is based around education. And honestly, I feel like anybody can grab a book and talk about these things. But as soon as I started to incorporate my experience within that and the challenges that I was having in accepting the loss that I had, also my own identity and those other factors that were included, other people were like, wait a second, I actually feel the same, and I have experiences too. So within that, I felt like I I received more community than than anything. That's really interesting you talk about that juxtaposition because you're you're you talk about this experience and and sorry to hear about your brother and and

trying to process your grief. And going to maybe traditionally the the support groups. Yeah. And not feeling like it resonates with you. But still being open enough to talk about it.

And then there's all these other people or other people who say yes. So it's kind of when you're talking about stigma, grief reminds me of one of those things where you don't always talk about your own experience because you have to fit into the specific, you know, anecdote or the card or the this or that, to make everyone else comfortable.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I just, yeah, I really noticed that even when I was looking into more grief literature just for myself, that even the stages of grief and those types of things, it's actually meant for the person who's dying and not for the bereaved, right? So you're constantly kind of trying to be like, oh, well, when's the acceptance going to come? When's the anger stopping? All of these things.

And I think that it kind of stigmatizes yourself even more. You end up having more guilt or shame or self blame for not being somewhere where you think you should be or society's like, hey, start accepting. And you're like, I haven't even processed what's actually going on for me. And it goes back to that complexity of the grief because there are so many different relational and emotional factors that contribute to that. And it's not necessarily just about the loss of the person.

It could be your own identity with that, right? It could be your position within the family, right? Conversations, whatever it was that you weren't able to have and trying to navigate that on your own. Especially when it was within my own family, I noticed that it was difficult for me to connect with some of my because family even within the same loss, we had different experiences. It was difficult to connect with people who knew me for twenty, thirty years because they hadn't had an experience like that.

And so I think even for somebody as myself who does promote and advocate for mental health, I actually had a lot of self stigma. So I felt really guilty and shameful that I was feeling the way that I was feeling. And I didn't know how to communicate that properly. And then when I would attend different groups and things like that, again, there was sort of this theme of acceptance or whatever. And I was like, nobody's talking about these other things that I'm feeling.

Like I had a sense of relief. And that was something that was not talked about. And I felt really guilty for feeling that way. But then as soon as I started to open up about those things and other conversations and areas, and especially with Siobhan and I, that's how we ended up connecting. It was like, Okay, wait a minute.

Maybe it's actually just not talked about openly. Right.

It's there, but not talked about. Okay, so you referenced Chivonne. So how did you guys meet?

Okay, well, Chivonne honestly reached out in a perfect time because I was having lots of conversations within the community and with other organizations within the community about grief and about mental health and the connection between the two and how we sort of need more resources and more awareness towards those things. And then Siobhan sort of dropped an email into the box. And it was pretty profound because I feel like the first probably ten minutes of our conversation, it was like, Okay, we see each other. And it was a connection that felt really grateful for. And then hearing her story as well, which obviously she'll get into a little bit more.

It was just profound that somebody that you've just met can be sort of working towards the same goals as you are. And that goal is kind of turning our pain into purpose. I think as humans, we need community and we need purpose. And especially with complex grief and different types of loss, I think you lose that. So being able to find that and work towards something and hopefully share it to other people and make a change or a little bit of hope in their lives is really, really impactful.

Yeah. Chivonne I mean, so how did you just magically drop into her inbox? I mean, I know you have a story, and I do want you to tell it. But how did that connection first get made from your end?

Yeah. I mean, we did have such we're very, very fortunate that we see each other so thoroughly. But before I I was new to Kelowna. I'm from Ontario. And I was reaching out to organizations because of what Mikaela just referenced, turning that pain into purpose for myself, and I'll get into my own experience in a moment, but I knew that I wanted to connect in the community with organisations that had such a strong focus on mental health and I thought that there was opportunity within Canadian Mental Health Association that I could create a difference.

And I started cold calling, didn't know who I was going to be reaching out to, I didn't know whose email I would land in, and Mikaela and I connected, and it was just this beautiful connection from the moment that we had our first interaction, and we knew we were going to work together.

That's incredible, and you guys are working together and bringing this into the forefront in the community. Can you share a little bit about your personal story around, grief and

complex Yes, absolutely. In 2024, I had my entire role turned upside down. My previous partner died by suicide, cancer, and then my dad had been cremated a week before I found out he was dead. And with his death in particular, I've been very actively involved in a court case trying to sort out what actually happened, figure out assets, figure out a lot of details and information I didn't have, not only because he passed away in The United States and I'm here in Canada, but just because a lot of details weren't made clear, and it created this complexity with my grief and my grieving because there was no body. There was very limited information.

There was no assets or resources or or anything tangible that I could even take and hold on to in his passing. He was just I just got a phone call that he was dead, and that was it. And there was no it was very difficult to work, to process, and to heal, and to grieve with such limited information, while also being actively involved in a court case to try to figure out what actually happened.

That's a lot. And, you know, thank you for sharing that story. So how going through that, living it, still living it, do you take that and say, Okay, I want to reach out, I want to help, there has to be a better way to do this?

Yeah. Similar to Mikayla, I had gone to grief groups, and I remember being enraged because I had gone in and these beautiful facilitators, and their greatest intention had suggested sleeping with your loved one's clothes, or thinking about your beautiful memories, or spraying their cologne, or things to bring you closer to them, and I was so angry because I didn't have clothes, my dad died in active addiction, I had a very contentious relationship with him because of his addiction while he was alive, I had no mementos, and rather than feel a sense of connection or a sense of being understood, I had that same feeling of not being witnessed, not being seen, more isolated in my own grieving, because there was nobody who could see me. So I didn't feel like I had a voice in the conversation. I actually left before the group was done, I politely excused myself, because I just couldn't I didn't feel that this was a place that I felt supported, and I realized that I was going to have to create what I couldn't find. So beyond literature and starting to even hear terms like disenfranchised or complicated grief, which I hadn't known existed before, it just set me on this path that if this has happened to me, there's nobody who I'm going to meet who's gonna have a similar story, but I'm gonna find other people who've had very complex experiences and be able to say, I see you.

Mhmm. And I don't exactly know what your pain is, but my grief is complicated too, and I'm here with you in that. So it just shifted my entire business and my work around grief education and creating a space to have these uncomfortable conversations comfortably, because we so often shy away from grief, and we shy away from loss, and even in the way that we speak about people who have died, we say I'm sorry for your loss, rather than say I'm sorry you lost the name of the person. We try to separate the individual from the experience, which makes it even more isolating because we're not naming somebody, because it's very uncomfortable, and

we don't know

what to say, or we say nothing. So rather than even addressing the fact that somebody has died, you don't call, and you don't go to the funeral because it's too hard for you, and you don't know what to say. So then you're leaving this experience even more open for the person who's grieving, who's already feeling at a loss, and now they're even more isolated and alone in that experience.

What you just walked through, it's really woven into layers, because not a lot of people I'm gonna make a generalization. Not a lot of people handle grief well when it's it's happening to somebody else. And so then layered up upon that is this complex or disenfranchised. And I know when and so a little bit, I have my own living experience with this. And and it's like, the label wasn't necessary, like you said, but as soon as I heard the word, complex grief, I'm like, that's what it is.

That's what I'm experiencing. And you talk about the isolation, and the frustration and the anger because you're like, wait, nobody understands. Like, you don't understand. And I remember googling. Like, we're supposed to Google, and there was nothing Yeah.

For my particular scenario. And then I just stopped. You know, I think I talked with you about maybe some avenues or some outlets that I may pursue. But in terms of me supporting or getting support from the people around me, things like not saying the name, or the various anniversaries that It's so isolating. And the importance with mental health is connection and community.

Yeah, it's a real it's a really tough one. And so I guess the next part of this is, where do we go from here? How do we have a way forward? So we know that there's people out there. So talk a little bit about the intention with the work that you both

are doing. Yeah, so I mean, the intention intention really is to create a space where it is accessible for people to have these conversations without necessarily having to seek professional help. Because as much as professional support is needed and under some circumstances absolutely can parlay with other things, I think there's so much beauty in the peer support and peer connection in building those communities. So we have with CMHA a platform called Discovery College where our hope is to connect people and have different mental health and wellness topics and Complex Grief being one of them, where we can sit down and have these conversations in person with people and hear stories and share our experiences and then be able to support each other and see where there are gaps in the community. Because we know where our gaps are.

And I want to hear from other people as well. And even when we talk about disenfranchised grief and those different things, what that really means is it's grief that's not recognized or validated by anybody else. And that could be non death loss. That could be from illness or injury. You see that a lot of times in high performance athletes and things when they have injury, they're not able to return to their sport.

You see that with brain injuries. You see that with dementia and Alzheimer's. You also see that with pet losses and different things like that. So as much as there's so many different grief support groups and things out there, it's not necessarily talking about these different intricacies of it and the complexities of that. So really, what we're wanting to do is, for one, create some literature that supports people have their own understanding of what it means to them, maybe see themselves in some of that, and then also have a community that they can lean on and be able to support and support them back.

Because I think a big thing, too, with navigating this grief journey and especially complex grief is you want to support other people in it, too. And that creates a purpose and a sense of purpose. And I just know how much purpose it's given me and Siobhan to be able to connect with each other and come up with ideas and formulate these plans, different retreats and things like that that would really impact other people. And then also give an opportunity for them to be a part of that and create some of their own purpose within their loss.

Right, pain into purpose, like you've talked about. Siobhan, with some of the work that you both have been doing and you've been doing, what has been the response from folks around this shining a light on it really is what I like to call it?

I think that's probably the biggest thing is that shining a light on it and having people realize that number one, they're not in this alone. No matter how separated and different or unique your grief experience is, we all experience grief. Like Mikaela just touched on, all of the ambiguous loss, the identity shifts, grief being this thing that happens that you don't want, you didn't choose. And it doesn't there's many ways that that shows up for folks in their life, but having support for somebody to say, I see you, and I'm here with you in this, and it doesn't mean that I'm looking to fix this for you. Because some things just happen, and my response, what I love, is seeing and talking to people about the before and the after.

Because you are who you were before this loss, and there's who you are after, and there's this messy middle of all the complicated feelings. But we've been able to create space for people to see a way through, to realize that there is something on the other side of that pain, creating a purpose and creating meaning from a situation, and there's just been a sense, I think, for folks of just feeling validated, and even though there's not necessarily a fix and the pain is still going to be there, just having somebody say that this exists and I see you in this and I'm not trying to fix this for you, but I'm here with you in it and I'm here to witness this, it creates that community, it creates that sense of not being alone. And I think that's so huge because we're so separated now, and we spend so much time in isolation and suffering alone when we don't have to.

We're going to include some resources in the show notes, and we're going to include your website. We're going to include Discovery College. A lot of this is in the works. A lot of this is what you both are building. Someone's listening.

They want to talk to one of you awesome people who's so they can feel seen. And not to put you too too on the spot, but they're listening. And they're like, okay. Because we know we've just talked about how these things aren't necessarily out there or easily accessible. What do they do?

What should we do? What should we do? How do they get help today? Should they be connecting with you guys? Should they be do you have other

Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, I think part of Discovery Discovery College as well is peer, right? It's not all just professional. It's that peer connection. So really, we are wanting to hear voices from other people.

And that's how you grow these things in the community. We can have ideas all we want. And we have been connecting with Springfield Funeral Home and Central Okanagan Hospice Association. And it's interesting because they have their support surrounding grief, and then we have our support surrounding mental health. So it's actually us as a community morphing those things into one, right, and creating that accessible platform, whatever it may look like.

So I know in the future we will be doing some in person workshops, some virtual workshops, trying to see the sense in the community of what is going to be the most picked up on and accessible. Because you want the in person connection, then you want people to have accessibility to this material as well. So, yeah, if people would love to connect with us, we would love that because that's how we created this to begin with. Great. And we'll

put that information on the show notes. Thank you both for joining us. Thank you. All right, lots going on there. So feel free to go to the A Way Forward podcast page on cmhacolona.org.

And then you'll find links to Discovery College, through CMHA Kelowna, and of course, any other information you might need and contact information if this episode resonated with you particularly. Meantime, please do take good care. Beam Credit Union supports mental health initiatives across British Columbia because caring for each other builds stronger, more connected communities. United as one, Beam's founding credit unions now serve 190,000 members across BC.