Zoe: Hello and welcome to this episode of the autism and theology podcast. I'm Zoe and I'm joined by Krysia and Ian and we're the three hosts of this podcast. This podcast is a space where we engage in the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways to help faith and non faith communities enable autistic people to flourish.

Our episodes are released on the first Wednesday of every month, with Cat Chat every third Wednesday, where your hosts share news and answer your questions. This podcast is run from the University of Aberdeen's Centre for Autism and Theology, which we've shortened to Cat . This episode is slightly different as we are hearing from Father Mark Nolette and Aimée O'Connell from Autism Consecrated.

Their preferred communication is email correspondence. So that we can hear their views and thoughts and reflections on Autism Consecrated and autism theology, Ian will be reading Mark's answers to questions and Krysia will be reading Aimée's. We will then stop at points to answer, to discuss, we will then stop at points to discuss their answers.

As we've discussed on previous episodes, we want this to be as neurodivergent friendly Podcast as possible, and that means at times we will do stuff slightly differently. So we're really looking forward to seeing how this format goes and we'd love to hear your feedback on it too. We're going to start by introducing Aimée O'Connell and Father Mark Nolet. Chrystia, would you like to introduce Aimée to us?

Krysia as Aimée: Aimée O'Connell began the Mission of Saint Thorlak, now known as Autism Consecrated, in 2017 with the goal of discussing autism and spirituality via the example of its namesake, St. Thorlak of Iceland. Her writing draws from contemplative (primarily Carmelite) spirituality, her master's degree in school psychology and perspective as an autistic individual. Aimée has authored the Novena in Honor of Saint Thorlak, approved in 2018 by Bishop David B. Tencer of Reykjavik; and Thorlak of Iceland, a full-length contemporary biography of Iceland's only native (and autistic) saint.

Ian as Fr. Mark

Fr. Mark Nolette is a priest of the Diocese of Portland, Maine.

Following his formative years in Biddeford, Maine, Fr. Mark went on to Saint John’s Seminary in Brighton, Massachusetts, and St. Paul University in Ottawa, Ontario. He was ordained to the priesthood on August 1, 1987.

In 1989, Fr. Mark undertook canon law study at The Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C.. Subsequently, Fr. Mark has served the Tribunal of the Diocese of Portland in several roles: judge, associated judge, procurator advocate, promoter of justice, and defender of the bond. He served as Vice Chancellor of the Diocese of Portland from 1999-2001.

Fr. Mark has had many parish assignments throughout the state of Maine, including: Augusta, Gray, Portland, Ashland, Calais, Pleasant Point, Lubec, Machias, Cherryfield, Camden, Dover-Foxcroft, Dexter and Pittsfield. He has also served at St. Timothy’s parish in Campobello, New Brunswick. Additional roles have been served as a sacramental minister at the Augusta Mental Health Institute, a vicar forane, and as a member of the Diocese of Portland’s Presbyteral Council and College of Consultors.

In 2014, Fr. Mark was formally diagnosed with autism. In 2018, Fr. Mark took up the role as spiritual director of the Mission of Saint Thorlak, which has since expanded to its present identity as Autism Consecrated. As part of this role, Fr. Mark authored The Scriptural Stations of the Cross for Autistic People in 2019.

As of his retirement in 2020, Father Mark is privileged to spend his time with God as a hermit-priest more fully. He remains a contributing writer to Harvest, the magazine of the Diocese of Portland, and Autism Consecrated. His writing can also be found on his blog, The Anchorite.

Zoe: The first question that we asked Father Mark and Aimée was, could you please share with our listeners what Autism Consecrated is and how it came to be? 

Ian: Father Mark said, Our website was originally called the Mission of St. Thorlach. I'll have more to say about St. Thorlach in response to your next question.

The name was changed to Autism Consecrated in order to make a couple of things clearer. First of all, at least in the United States, the word mission has often been associated with homeless shelters, food pantries, and soup kitchens. We wanted to make clear that these, as necessary as they may be, are not part of our vocation.

Secondly, the name Autism Consecrated is meant to show that being autistic is not something that happens at random to any of us, nor is our autism merely a burden or a curse. If our autism is an integral part of who we are as autistic people, then our autism is a gift of God to us. Once we see our autism as a gift of God to us, to autistic people themselves, and to the whole community, then one of the responses we make to this gracious gift is to consecrate our autism to the Lord, that the Lord might bless us and our world in many ways through our autism.

Krysia: And Aimée said, Autism Consecrated is an online apostolate whose vision is to realise autism's belonging in the body of Christ. We strive to be a point of contact for autistic people searching for spiritual belonging, as well as a resource for anyone seeking to better understand the autistic perspective in our faith communities.

Autism Consecrated was launched in 2020 after several years of searching for spiritual resources for neurodivergent people from a Catholic perspective and not finding very much which speaks to our role in the church or our place in the body, body of Christ. There are a handful of tools aimed at autistic children, such as visual schedules and social stories, depicting basic information about God, Jesus, and the liturgy, but not much addressing our ongoing relationship with God, our faith, and the Church.

And next to nothing written about autism. Written or created by actually autistic p autism con Consecrated is set up to be an access point for prayer, spiritual direction, ministry, and support to autistic persons worldwide. We are not so much a program or an organization as we are an online place of welcome and hospitality.

Founded by an autistic priest, hermit. We do not see ourselves as webmasters or content creators with each of us coming in as contemplatives. Our founding principles and actions are rooted in prayer. Prayer for the church. prayer for its autistic members and prayer for those who contact us through the website.

We offer to God ourselves our wisdom and our autism, including our lived experience, our academic backgrounds, and our desire to be a source of healing and hope, and pray that he will bless and share this offering for the benefit of all. With just two people working in little individual solitary ways, we've been blessed to connect with so many people, more than ever we imagined, countries all over the world.

Zoe: It's great to hear about Autism Consecrated from Father Mark and Aimée. Aimée

and Father Mark have also shared an excerpt from their website on autistic and spiritual perspectives. So I'm going to read that for us now.

Autism is difficult to put into words. So is spirituality!

There are many people who help nurture our spiritual growth. Members of our faith community - whether in leadership positions or in the pews with us - are those who most often play key roles. We look to such persons as models in the ways we develop our relationship with God.

Being autistic can present challenges to how we connect with our faith, how we connect with others, and how we connect with God. Ideally, our mentors in faith and spiritual directors will seek to understand our processing and relationship style in such a way that we learn to thrive exactly as we are. Yet, as many of us know, our autistic needs are not always obvious in terms of how we process and relate to our faith. Sometimes, we do not even realize ourselves what we need - only that things don't seem to fit, and we're not sure why.

The staff at Autism Consecrated would like to offer our backgrounds and lived experiences to help others look more closely at what these needs are, seeking ways to understand, explain and accommodate autistic challenges in our faith and spiritual development. We are available through email contact to discuss specific needs and situations which may arise - whether in general at the parish level, or more specifically between autistic individuals and those at all levels in the faith community - to foster better understanding and comprehension on every side. We strive to point you toward resources which speak to your specific needs as we draw upon our knowledge base of current best practices in supporting neurodivergent individuals, especially from the perspective of autistic people ourselves.

So that gives a little bit of insight into what autism consecrated is and what their purpose is.

The second question we asked is your site engages in advocacy for Saint Thorlak as a sort of patron saint of autism. Can you say a little bit about why that is important and what would you say to autistics who have an affinity for other particular saints that they feel resonate with their autistic experience? 

Ian: Father Mark said, Christianity is an incarnational religion. We believe that the Son took on human flesh in Jesus of Nazareth, fully divine and fully human. The Church is described as the body of Christ, a continuation of the Incarnation in which every Christian has a role or calling for the benefit of the whole body, a calling that comes from Christ, who is the head of this body.

These callings do not end with physical death. In the liturgy, we are united with the heavenly liturgy, the liturgy of the angels and saints. So too, they are united with us in prayer and faith. With this as a theological background, shared by the churches of both East and West, the Roman tradition of patrons, the belief that various human activities each had their own god or goddess watching over them, was baptized, so to speak.

Saints who, while in this life, had been associated with various activities, came to be seen as patron saints, people chosen by God to be particular means of God's grace in the various facets of human existence now. Belief in patron saints was one way of expressing a more fundamental belief that every facet of human is graced by God, by being given a place in the church, the body of Christ.

If something has a patron saint, it is seen as welcomed and blessed by God. In our study of the life of Saint Thorlak, beginning with the Icelandic saga of his life, we see in him a number of personality traits that are similar to those common among autistic people. On the other hand, we also see in the Church a great deal of misunderstanding with regard to autistic people.

Much of this is reflected in Grant McCaskill's book, Autism and the Church, and Leon van Amen's book, Autism and Liturgy. For the Catholic Church, in our case, to formally designate a saint as a patron saint of autism would be, among other things, a powerful symbolic gesture showing that, in the eyes of the Church as a whole, autistic people are fully welcomed and valued as true members of the body of Christ.

We suggest that St. Thorlach would make a strong candidate for a patron saint of autistic people for the reasons outlined above. However, there are other saints who seem to have at least some aspects of their personalities that resemble those common among autistic people. We would include Edith Stein and Thomas Aquinas among them.

Therefore, if some autistic people felt that some other saint would be an ideal patron or role model for them, this takes nothing away from St. Thorlach or any other saint. When one member is blessed or honored, all share in that member's joy.

Krysia: Aimée says, St. Flore Thorlach's story, as recorded in the saga of Bishop Thorlach dating back to the 1200s, reflects many similarities with experiences shared by the autistic community today. For example, he taught himself to read, even memorizing the entire Book of Psalms without any direct instruction.

Bearing in mind that most adults at the time were largely illiterate, as the needs for substance survival did not allow for much academic study, he spent much of his childhood in the company of adults, asking them questions and listening to their stories rather than playing with other children, as he found their activities noisy and chaotic.

As bright and perceptive as he was, and he was said to be, he had difficulty speaking, a struggle which lasted his whole life. In dire poverty, Borlaug's family sent him to study for the priesthood at a very young age, with the idea that his progeny might gain him a high social rank, providing financial assurance for his family.

As they had no means to contribute to his education, it was assumed that he would repay his sponsors in the form of political favours later in his career. To their frustration, Borlaug took theology very seriously and was wholeheartedly devoted to the moral principles of his faith. As, as a priest and later as a bishop, he did not compromise his values to please those in power and as a result he did severe, face severe backlash and betrayal, including death threats from those he trusted.

Nevertheless, he did not waver in his convictions. Forlac is described as having weak and stooped stature, which starkly contrasts with how saga writers typically portrayed heroes at the time. By today's standards, we might ask if he had low muscle tone, scoliosis, or joint hypermobility, all of which commonly co occur with neurodivergence.

And Forlac provides preferred solitude to large gatherings. He was distressed by responsibilities requiring him to address crowds or mingle at banquets. He was faithful at his office and endured for the sake of his pastoral duties. He was known to arrange small and quiet gatherings between himself, and individuals whom society considered disabled and marginalised, which he hosted at his own residence on a regular basis.

And this was known only to his close advisors, whom he asked not to make fanfare of his actions. As he said, he derived great comfort from the friendship and company of these so called outcasts. His motivation was mutual hospitality and genuine friendship, not charitable gesture from a seat of power.

Throughout his life, Falak did not hide his awkwardness, speech impediment, or differences, living with integrity to who he was and what he believed. He worked diligently to ensure equality and dignity among the poor, the marginalized, and the disabled in Iceland. At one point, He was offered the opportunity to permanently relocate to a comfortable life among the academic elite on the European continent, but chose to return to the relative poverty and simple ways of his homeland because he had no pretense of having any greater status than what he was.

We consider St. Forlac a role model for authenticity, acceptance and inclusion and proof that our Lord can call anyone to vocations within the church, including those who today. would likely be considered a neurodivergent. His manner of prayer, voluntarily humility and authenticity, inspired our prayer to consecrate autism, an act of offering our autistic traits, the strengths, as well as the struggles, to God for his use and the greater benefit of all.

St. Forlac demonstrates how being authentically autistic in the Church is mission work, in that it requires us to be vulnerable and not to hide our needs, and to constantly pray with patience that the community will come to see our neurodivergent traits as neither character flaws nor superpowers, but rather one particular expression of our common humanity, equal in dignity to others, and serving a valid and functional role within the body of Christ.

The Communion. of saints, is vast and full of people from all backgrounds, all walks of life, and diverse expressions of faith. There is a saint who exemplifies just about any corresponding special interest or circumstance. If one takes the time to explore the stories which have been collected over the centuries, and whichever percentage we take to be the estimate of autistic people in the world at any given point, it's highly likely that there are.

similar distribution of neurodivergence among the saints. Are there other saints who serve as role models for autistic people? Are there other neurodivergent saints? Absolutely. I encourage anyone who is curious to explore the saints for themselves and to discover who are most personally relatable.

Ian: Yeah. And so this is Ian speaking. Um, and I, what I want to say about their answers about Father Mark and Aimée's answers is that I really appreciated how they were careful not to say definitively, um, I'm not trying to put words in their mouths, but it seems like they're trying not to say definitively he was autistic neurodivergent, which is good because I'm always a little bit nervous and, or skeptical of attempts to diagnose saints centuries after the fact.

Right. Right. But what they do is they highlight the fact that he had several what we would consider stereotypically autistic behaviors or characteristics, right? And say, autistic people, neurodivergent people can feel an affinity for this particular saint because what he shows, even if we don't know definitively that he was autistic, is that there is room for quote unquote autistic traits in the church.

That this is not a bar to participation. This is, this does not mean you have no place in the church. And we have, we have demonstrated that at some points in our history. Um, so I just, I really like that. I think it's no different than, you know, St. Claire of Assisi is the patron saint of the internet because at one point she was, she was sick in bed and she saw the mass.

as though it were happening on the wall of her cell, right? And so we've decided that's sort of like television and the internet. So we've made Claire of Assisi the patron of television and the internet. And it's no different than, than that, to my mind, right? Is we're not necessarily saying that St. Clair was watching television, but we saw in an event in her life, something that, that related to this.

So even if St. Thorlak wasn't autistic, and there are, there are reasons to suspect that maybe he was, but even if he wasn't. That's not necessarily the point, is that he happened to be autistic. It's that he showed there is room for, not just room in the church, but room in holiness itself and sainthood for autistic traits.

Krysia: And this is Krysia speaking in my view on kind of contributing to what Ian and also Father Mark and Aimée have said. So I come from a tradition which doesn't have Saints as much, so this is very much, I'm finding this conversation really, really fascinating, really eye opening. And I think the one thing that strikes me, as Krysia, is actually how, um, this is almost could be a role model for autistic people, kind of in terms of you do belong here, because there are often so many narratives.

It is. big autistic people, but lots of different people who don't quite fit this model of the ideal Christian or the ideal churchgoer. Um, but actually we can see through St. Thorlak and some of the other saints, but actually there is room for people like me. There is room for people like me. And that to me is just such a, a rich and strong message which comes through all of the responses so far.

Zoe: Yeah and I just want to repeat one of the sentences that Aimée shared just kind of sum up what has been said in this particular section. The community will come to see neurodivergent traits as neither character flaws nor superpowers but rather one particular expression of our common humanity. Equal in dignity to others, serving a valid and functional role in the body of Christ.

And I just think that is, yeah, kind of sums up a lot of what we're trying to do in this podcast. So I just wanted to repeat that before we move on to the next bit. So that was a quote from Aimée. So the third question we asked, kind of speaking more specifically about the website, your site includes some autistic prayer and devotions. Do you think? There is a specifically autistic way of praying, or does it vary mainly just in terms of context? 

Ian: And Father Mark says, some would say that there is a specifically autistic way of praying. I would argue that the specifically autistic component is not so much in the way of praying, nor is it in content.

It is in what could be called the language of prayer. Let me explain a bit what I mean. Autistic people are also people. We are human. We are also sinners in need of the gospel. The gospel we need is the same gospel as everyone else needs. We need to follow the path of repentance and conversion as everyone else does.

Our ways of prayer, however, may not look sufficiently prayerful or reverent to other people. This is especially true in any form of communal prayer, such as the liturgy. We may need to move or stand. Dim at quote unquote incorrect times. We may find the space too loud or too bright to allow for prayer as we perceive it.

We are especially sensitive to inconsistencies between what others claim that prayer is and how the prayer is actually structured or carried out. We are very sensitive to any prayer experiences that end up being more focused on the ego of the prayer leaders than on the presence of God in our midst.

If anything, then, autistic people are like the canary in the cage that miners brought with them many years ago. The canary was more sensitive to deadly gases than the miners themselves. When the canary died in the cage, or was at least very sick, the miners knew they needed to leave that mine. In the same way, if autistic people are not comfortable with prayer as a given community is doing it, then there may be a problem with the prayer as a whole.

Addressing the problem will end up being better not only for autistic people, but for everyone. The only difference is that autistic people are usually more keenly aware of the problem. So then I wonder if the real issue is not so much to find an autistic way of praying, but to see the presence of autistic people as a way to cleanse the manner in which the entire community prays, helping the whole community pray more authentically.

The image that comes to mind is Jesus cleansing the temple. All this being said, I believe that our autistic prayers and devotions serve a temporary function. They are written in order to help autistic people perceive the activity of God in their own lives, even without the help of their faith communities.

Once faith communities are on board and evangelized in truth, specifically autistic prayers and devotions may no longer be needed.

Krysia: And Aimée says, The manner in which any person prays, autistic or non autistic, is always going to be an extension and expression of how much that person processes information, approaches relationships, and experiences emotion. I feel it's especially relevant for autistic people to take into account the manner in which we have experienced trust over the course of our development.

That is, how well we feel able to trust ourselves and how we're well we feel able to trust others. A huge number of autistic people hear from a very young age that our ways of processing are wrong, that our emotions are incorrect, that our communication style is inadequate, and that our interpretations are off.

These messages typically come from the people we turn to when we're most vulnerable. If we consistently hear that what we say, need, and ask for is wrong, we learn to doubt ourselves, mistrust our own wisdom, and expect that our best efforts are never quite enough. Yet, we simultaneously know on some level that our thoughts, needs, and feelings are true, which means that the people we trust are perhaps not trustworthy at all.

If they don't relieve us, where we relate to them, with our unintended selves. This dynamic is probably the biggest obstacle for autistic people. Why? Because the act of praying requires us to first be vulnerable and then to engage with a power greater than ourselves, both of which we have become conditioned to dread.

How can we expect God to love us unconditionally when we are rarely accepted as who we are? How can we expect God to hear us when the people around us do not? How can we expect God to take our needs seriously when the people we trust don't? When people say God is truth, do they mean truth like we tell it?

Simple. unspun and blunt? Or do they mean that God works like people do, tripping us up with unstated rules or withholding help and approval until we say and do the right combination of things to be pleased enough? In my estimation, asking about an autistic style of prayer is asking the wrong question.

We need to realise that neuro normative social rules do not define God, or how he relates to us, or how we relate to him, autistic or not. Yet the majority of literature and instruction surrounding prayer has been created by and taught by neurotypical people for neurotypical people. So, in short, the ways which people of any neurotype interpret and express prayer are highly variable and dependent on their individual manner of processing information, language, relationships, emotion, and communication.

When an autistic person feels disconnected from prayer, Any or all of the factors need to be considered in terms of how safe that person feels in being vulnerable and needy before God. We've often had a great deal of healing to be addressed before we can even start thriving in our eternal lives, let alone begin to be, begin to consider the manner in which we best connect to God in prayer.

Zoe: Just reflecting on those responses as Zoe, um, I'm just really struck by the slowness and gentleness of it all and that appreciation that yes, things need to change in communities, but also their focus on encouraging people to get to a point where they feel safe and secure in prayer. And I just find that really amazing and Yeah, really excited to hear more about how they do that.

Krysia: And this is Krysia speaking, and I would echo that, and one particular thing that struck me was almost saying that it's neuro normative social rules that actually create a lot of the problems, and these don't define God. And this almost fits with some of the thinking I have wider than my PhD, in that there isn't a double empathy problem between us and God.

But it's between humans. It's a, it's a creative thing between people. And I think that's what so beautifully comes through and what's so beautifully explained in particular by Aimée when she talks about safety. Because when there is that mismatch of communication and that breakdown, that safety effectively disappears.

And then that knocks on to every other 

everything, basically.

Ian: Yeah. And speaking as Ian, the two, the two sort of themes that I pick up, um, Father Mark's emphasis seems to be on what, what makes me think of, um, Stuart Rapley's book, Autistic Thinking in the Life of the Church, and the idea that, Um, that autistics have a lower tolerance for cognitive dissonance, right?

So if you're saying one thing and doing another in church, then that does, just doesn't work for autistic people. Um, I think there may be some truth to that. I think that, um, in some ways autistic people have, are, are not, you know, a lot of that is socially conditioned, right? That you, you go along to get along.

And autistic people are less inclined to do that, um, especially when the stakes are high and especially when it's, um, when it's, you know, sort of core principles, um, and, and also, um, Aimée's idea that, um, that this is related to, um, Um, why I think a lot of autistic people have alexithymia, right, is because they grow up being told, no, you don't actually feel that way.

And so eventually they don't even trust their own bodies. Right? And I think that the same thing happens spiritually, but when it happens spiritually, you just end up with autistic people not going to church because they've been told you're relating wrongly to God for so long, or that's not how you actually feel, or that's not how you actually experience spirituality.

Um, and I think that does. Does damage that we don't even realize. And so I think that this is this is something that we have to be really careful of, um, which is not ever narrating somebody else's experience, right? Not ever telling anyone how they're feeling or how they should be feeling, which we we.

are bad about in the church sometimes.

Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. And kind of following on from how they reflect on these things that autism consecrated and put these into practice into resources. The next question we asked, um, was your website provides a number of resources. Have you heard from people that any specific one resonates for them and others?

And as always, we'll have the website and the show notes.

Ian: And Father Mark says, Several of our resources have been viewed, requested, and commented on by many people. The first of these is our Scriptural Stations of the Cross.

This is based on a traditional devotion where people are invited to accompany Jesus from the Last Supper to his death on the cross. The reflections for each station have been written in the hope that autistic people can see how Jesus has taken their own struggles and pains, as well as those of everyone else.

This The second is our prayer of consecration of our autism. We cannot separate our autism from who we are. Through this prayer, we dedicate the joys and the pains of our autism to the Lord and ask the Lord to make our autism a means of grace for us and for all. The third is the Novena of St. Thorlach. A novena is a traditional prayer that is prayed every day for nine days.

In this novena, we pray with St. Thorlach and ask that he pray in and for us. We pray that his example of faithful love of the Lord might inspire the same love in us. Finally, there is the information we offer on the life of St. Thorlach himself. The idea that there is someone formally recognized by the Catholic Church as a saint who also gets us as autistic people is a tremendous consolation for many, especially when we may be unseen or even unwanted in our own 

faith communities.

Krysia: And Aimée says, In terms of specific prayers, we've had consistently positive response to Father Mark's Scriptural Stations of the Cross for Autistic People, with several groups sharing that they've adopted this devotion as one of their local offerings during the Lenten season. Likewise, our autism specific prayers seem to be well received.

That is our prayer to consecrate autism, as well as our prayer for autism support, and Child's Prayer to Saint Froelich. We've seen the affirmative response to our domestic prayer missionaries initiative, whereby we offer the opportunity for individuals to pray for particular intentions from their place of comfort, whether this is at home, in chapel, or at structured groups.

Most recently, our focus has been on praying for the intentions of the clergy serving in the Catholic Church in Iceland. Our goal to demonstrate to both the Church and to autistic people that participation in the body takes many forms, even those which are less visible and less active, but by no means less vital in the life of the Church.

For Lenten season and the month of April, which is World Autism Month, we've published a list of petitions for autism's belonging in the body of Christ. And this too has been well received as a way that communicates and can flip the narrative, pray to the petitions of actually autistic people, rather than presuming to write prayers for autistic people without our actual input.

What I've described here are the more tangible resources, things you can read and download and share locally. It is equally important to emphasise that we offer our availability as a resource. Availability has been overwhelmingly the resource which has benefited and resonated with our visitors the most.

Many people contact us with prayer requests, many seek guidance regarding situations, usually stemming from a lack of support. which impedes their faith lives and church attendance. We also hear from autistic men and women and people in matters of locational development, including those who feel called to enter the priesthood and religious life.

but have been met with resistance and reluctance when they mention that they're neurodivergent. On the flip side of that, we've been contacted by vocations directors and members of religious orders expressing their hesitation toward or sometimes even admission policies which prohibit opening their doors to autistic postulants.

Yet they know on an intuitive level that neurodivergence should not be an automatic disqualification and they'd like guidance on how to proceed. Pastas. Youth ministers and family members of autistic people are also among those who have come across autism consecrated in their online search for better meeting the spiritual needs of autistic members of the parish and reached out to us with questions.

By making ourselves available as a resource. By email, we're able to exemplify that autistic people can and should be full and equal participants, contributing our various gifts in all aspects of church life. Liturgy, pastoral care, evangelization, ministry, vocations and fellowship, each in our own individual manner.

Zoe: It's so amazing hearing specifically about all the Autism Consecrated do and reflecting on particularly what Father Mark said I'm just so struck by the point of offering information on the life of Saint Thorlach himself and just that even sharing a story of like kind of like what we were saying earlier sharing that story of someone who can share experiences with people today.

That's powerful in itself and sometimes we don't need to recreate loads and loads of things. Sometimes the stories that are helpful are already in our history. 

Krysia: And I'm now speaking as Krysia, I would completely agree. I think there's an awful lot of reinventing the wheel that goes on in our field and within our practice, when actually, and what's so amazing about both Aimée's and Father Mark's responses, is it's not just that we've created a bunch of resources and put it online, it's about availability and engagement and listening and being part of community, and I think sometimes that is missing, that dialogue, um, even because people don't So people in power or have power may not want to talk or be part of that dialogue.

But it's really fantastic that there is dialogue going on as a resource. I think 

that's just so vital.

Ian: Yeah. And, um, speaking as Ian, one of the things that I really appreciate is support for vocations directors and members of religious orders about autistic postulants. I have the Benefit of having gone through the the discernment and ordination process before I was diagnosed. Right? So there were things that came up that in hindsight, I can say, Oh, that's because I was autistic, right?

Like, that's what that psychologist was talking about in their psych report that people have. Right. Talk to me about, but if I had been diagnosed at the time, I think my, my road to ordination would have been much, much, much more difficult. Um, and I think that just bears repeating. I think that there are a lot of people who, um, just by virtue of what they think they know about autism would be unwilling to advance someone who is autistic through the ordination process or through discernment or vocations process.

And, and I think that that's. Um, I think that the work that they're doing in terms of raising visibility, in terms of increasing understanding, not just of autism in general, although that needs to happen too, but of autism and the church, and autism and holiness, and the idea that this is not a bar to being in Christian community is just really tremendously important.

Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. And kind of thinking more about, um, churches and inclusion now. The final question that we asked was, what do you think is the most important step to be taken regarding autistic inclusion, acceptance and belonging in the church? 

Ian: To which Father Mark says, it is nothing else and nothing less than the commitment to repent and believe in the gospel.

It is the desire of every Christian community to truly be what it is called to be. It is the rejection of all forms of spin that do no more than make us look good. It is the willingness to see the truth for what it is. It is the willingness to admit the wrongs of the past and present, to take appropriate action for them, lament them, and seek forgiveness and conversion.

In short, one test of the sincerity of the commitment of any Christian community to the gospel is how genuinely they welcome autistic people in their midst. A community that fails to welcome autistic people fails to be Christian. 

Krysia: And Aimée says, I might name several steps. But I'm not sure anyone is more important than another.

Humility and conversion are the root of any step, but these can easily become far off ideals, or worse, ambiguous buzzwords, which communities can easily presume already exist without putting that to the test. To greatly paraphrase chapter 2, verses 14 to 17 of the Epistle of James, buzzwords alone are lifeless.

Demonstrating humility and conversion by cultivating their fruits, on the other hand, is life giving. But neither virtues nor their fruits can be cultivated without radically vulnerable prayer. The kind which asks God to help us grow in holiness, with a willingness to risk whatever measure of repentance that entails.

It's essential to pray for a shift in hearts and minds towards focusing on the ways of autistic members enliven the body of Christ. We cannot persist in casting neurodivergent traits as a burden or an affliction on the community even if that is the narrative we have accepted and enacted up till now.

From there, the Church needs to challenge the idea that best practice in serving neurodivergent people means using methods and programming directed at autistic people. Instead, let us invite autistic people to participate in the planning, the design, the implementation of initiatives, which neurodivergent people and simultaneously manageable and beneficial to the entire community.

Thank you And finally, it would be helpful if we can move away from the behaviorist mindset in which we act towards others without considering their humanity as much as calculating how we can shape and control that person's behavior. It's a terrible way to contact our relationships and runs opposite to the way that Christ himself shows us to treat others.

Yet we seem very steeped in the idea that showing generosity, generosity and personalized attention is risky and indulgent. Nonsense. We cannot limit. hospitality with scarcity or demands that recipients earn their due. Each person we encounter is loved by God, who is infinite and whose generosity is not rationed based on our performance.

Zoe: I'm really struck by the similarities between what Father Mark and Aimée have said, um, and what we heard in our last podcast episode from members of the chapel of Christ our hope. And just that focus on like programs aren't enough, like autistic people need to be embedded in the planning and the leadership and not just like passive receivers of things or people like, um, sitting on pews, but also people actively involved in.

the setting up of the church. And yeah, it's really interesting seeing the comparison there. 

Krysia: And I'm now speaking as Krysia here, that's actually really interesting. That reminds me almost as one of the key findings of my PhD, where sometimes autistic people may find it really difficult and very neuro normative. churches and mosques, where there's a lot of new normativity demanded. People may find spaces which are generally grassroots, or led by other autistic people, other disabled people, other neurodivergent people, and they may look a bit different, but they're very much implemented for and with.

Not kind of top down, which really helps kind of see how we perhaps consider inclusion and it's not just about getting bums on seats as Last episode said and Aimée and Father Mark said in this episode. It's about co creating with effectively.

Ian: And speaking for myself as Ian, uh, there are two, again, two different things that I really, really liked in their answers. Father Mark closes his answer with a community that fails to welcome autistic people, fails to be Christian. Um, I think that really gets to the centrality of this issue. And the truth is so many people, if you try and talk to them about autism and theology about autism in the church, it feels.

to them, like a very niche issue, right? Like this is, this is very specific. It doesn't apply to everyone. And I mean, if we believe in the gospel, if we believe that the, that the, I can't say to the hand, I have no need of you, then we don't have the luxury of saying, well, you know, Well, this community just isn't for autistic people, or we don't need to worry about that because there aren't any autistic people here.

Obviously, not every single community is for every single person. So I'm not suggesting that you need to have X number of autistic people or you're inauthentic. But the idea that this is something that only some people need to concern themselves with is, I mean, it's, it's, it runs. against the gospel, right?

Like it's tough to square with scripture. Um, the, the other thing that, um, that Aimée lifts up is the quote, what she calls the behaviorist mindset in which we act toward others without considering their humanity. Um, I have done a lot of work in looking at existing where I can find them existing liturgies that claim to be neurodivergent friendly or autism friendly worship.

And it is. Frankly, stunning to me how many of those liturgies incorporate behaviorism into the liturgy, like part of what you do together is behaviorism, which is essentially training, right? And it's training people to be more like X societal expectation and putting that within our liturgy is just so deeply uncomfortable to me.

That I, I, I just cannot fathom. I mean, and I don't want to impugn anyone, and I think everybody does it with the best of intentions. It's just, it is just unfathomable to me that one of the things that we want to, that we want to enshrine in our liturgical life together, in our common worship life together, is the fact that some people need to learn how to be different, right?

And not just in a sin and repentance sort of way, but in a, in a, these behaviors need to be extinguished sort of way. That's just, I, I mean, it sounds like, in exaggeration until you see that in action. And so much of what we do, even if it's unspoken, even if it's expecting neurodivergent kids to be silent in church, is telling them, you're not okay the way that you are, and you need to be different.

And that's just, It's just wild to me. 

Krysia: Speaking as Krysia, also completely wild to me. And it just reflects so much of the findings of my PhD. In particular how I found that the religious groups that I investigated were almost seen as cults of normalcy and this is what this behaviourist mindset seems to be reinforcing, that you need to follow the norm.

And it's just really strange to me, it's when we look at scripture and we look at what the body of Christ should be, it should be anything this. So I think it's just so bizarre, it's definitely something that needs further unpacking. 

Zoe: And I think that's what's so cool about Autism Consecrated being a website.

It's a little bit different. This is offering resources that are like, as Ian said, like so much of the liturgy is not helpful for a lot of autistic people. So actually like a website that's offering these resources for churches to go to and for autistic people to go to, but also it's just slightly different.

Having a website it's not necessarily like, here's a checklist for all the things churches can do better. It's like, come to this space and engage with this online community that's, yeah, um, yeah, they're really doing something very special, and it's amazing to hear the impact and what they offer. And yeah, we really encourage listeners to engage with the website.

Um, and get in touch with them if you have any further questions as a result of this podcast. Thank you so much Aimée O'Connell and Father Mark Nolet for engaging with us on this podcast and sharing your responses. It's been really, really helpful and valuable to hear what you have to say. And thank you to our listeners for joining us this week. In our next Cat Chat episode, which will be on the third Wednesday of the month, Krysia, Ian and myself will be reflecting on doing this podcast in a slightly different way and what it's looked like to, um, to hear the voices of people who are not present on the podcast and do that in a way that's sensitive and representative of what they have to say.

So we'll be reflecting on this process a little bit in our next episode. If you have any questions, please get in touch with us at cat@abdn.ac.Uk. You can also find us at Autism and Theology on Instagram, X, and Facebook.