WEBVTT

00:00:01.237 --> 00:00:03.476
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Just DAO,

00:00:03.498 --> 00:00:05.378
the podcast for people starting DAOs.

00:00:05.498 --> 00:00:06.958
I'm Adam Miller, and I'm your host.

00:00:07.718 --> 00:00:09.278
Prior to starting MyDAO,

00:00:09.339 --> 00:00:10.478
I did consulting for people

00:00:10.519 --> 00:00:11.999
starting and operating DAOs.

00:00:12.480 --> 00:00:13.880
And now at MyDAO,

00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:16.019
we do legal entities for

00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:17.740
DAOs and Web3 projects.

00:00:18.221 --> 00:00:19.600
As always, we're recording live,

00:00:19.620 --> 00:00:20.821
so apologies in advance for

00:00:20.841 --> 00:00:22.121
any technical difficulties.

00:00:22.562 --> 00:00:24.582
We have guest Brian Peets.

00:00:24.702 --> 00:00:25.722
I know him as BPeets.

00:00:26.503 --> 00:00:27.882
Welcome to the show, Brian.

00:00:28.870 --> 00:00:30.036
Hey, thanks Adam.

00:00:30.178 --> 00:00:30.881
Thanks for having me on.

00:00:30.902 --> 00:00:31.484
This is going to be fun.

00:00:32.694 --> 00:00:33.374
Yeah, you got it.

00:00:33.494 --> 00:00:35.295
So as the audience knows,

00:00:35.515 --> 00:00:37.536
we always do the show in two parts.

00:00:37.597 --> 00:00:38.597
The first part is going to

00:00:38.637 --> 00:00:40.279
be the JustDAOit news report,

00:00:40.639 --> 00:00:41.659
where we will go through

00:00:41.740 --> 00:00:43.920
recent DAO news headlines

00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:45.182
and tweets and casts,

00:00:45.822 --> 00:00:47.603
and you and I will respond to the story.

00:00:47.643 --> 00:00:48.783
So I'll summarize them for

00:00:48.844 --> 00:00:49.945
us both and for the audience,

00:00:50.405 --> 00:00:51.326
and we'll respond to them.

00:00:51.466 --> 00:00:53.127
So what's our hot take?

00:00:53.146 --> 00:00:54.908
Do we agree or disagree with the author?

00:00:55.247 --> 00:00:57.009
What does it say about DAOs,

00:00:57.048 --> 00:00:59.271
the future of DAOs, starting DAOs,

00:00:59.331 --> 00:00:59.710
et cetera?

00:01:00.131 --> 00:01:01.451
And then in the second half of the show,

00:01:01.472 --> 00:01:02.633
we'll go into our in-depth

00:01:02.713 --> 00:01:04.313
interview with you, B. Peetz.

00:01:05.474 --> 00:01:07.096
But before we start the news report,

00:01:07.156 --> 00:01:08.716
still would love a brief intro.

00:01:09.076 --> 00:01:09.957
So could you tell us a

00:01:09.998 --> 00:01:11.078
little bit about yourself

00:01:11.259 --> 00:01:13.620
and what makes you an authority on DAOs?

00:01:14.921 --> 00:01:17.343
Yeah, brief is not my forte,

00:01:17.362 --> 00:01:18.903
so we'll see if we can pull this off.

00:01:18.924 --> 00:01:22.445
But so, yeah,

00:01:23.027 --> 00:01:24.727
I have always been interested

00:01:25.067 --> 00:01:26.129
in technology and

00:01:27.384 --> 00:01:28.944
and how it helps people.

00:01:29.506 --> 00:01:30.286
Since a young age,

00:01:30.506 --> 00:01:31.387
didn't really know how to

00:01:31.427 --> 00:01:32.346
put it in those terms.

00:01:33.108 --> 00:01:34.868
Took me through to

00:01:35.129 --> 00:01:36.950
engineering at one point in time.

00:01:37.010 --> 00:01:38.650
So I was a mechanical

00:01:38.710 --> 00:01:39.871
engineer for a little while,

00:01:39.951 --> 00:01:41.793
working on passenger rail equipment,

00:01:42.173 --> 00:01:43.072
trying to help cities

00:01:43.132 --> 00:01:45.575
procure new light rail or

00:01:45.614 --> 00:01:47.876
commuter rail equipment.

00:01:50.108 --> 00:01:51.248
it was not the place of

00:01:51.289 --> 00:01:52.750
innovation my engineering

00:01:52.810 --> 00:01:54.069
education in the academic

00:01:54.129 --> 00:01:56.671
environment um and and out

00:01:56.710 --> 00:01:57.950
there in the rail industry

00:01:57.971 --> 00:01:58.632
it was kind of like

00:01:59.031 --> 00:02:00.531
participating in the tail

00:02:00.772 --> 00:02:01.772
end of the industrial

00:02:01.813 --> 00:02:03.033
revolution and truly

00:02:03.072 --> 00:02:04.712
feeling its end in many

00:02:04.772 --> 00:02:06.653
ways and that really led me

00:02:07.194 --> 00:02:08.634
to sort of calibrate with

00:02:08.854 --> 00:02:09.995
what am I up to why am I

00:02:10.314 --> 00:02:10.974
you know doing what I'm

00:02:10.995 --> 00:02:11.836
doing instead of you know

00:02:11.895 --> 00:02:13.515
punching this ticket uh at

00:02:13.556 --> 00:02:14.556
the engineering school and

00:02:14.575 --> 00:02:15.616
then going and working in

00:02:15.657 --> 00:02:16.657
this field and it just

00:02:17.076 --> 00:02:17.918
It really woke me up,

00:02:17.997 --> 00:02:20.419
especially when this young

00:02:20.498 --> 00:02:22.560
fellow came to work with us.

00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:24.621
And he had been building

00:02:24.781 --> 00:02:27.362
model railroad trains his entire life.

00:02:27.682 --> 00:02:29.063
He loved going to the rail

00:02:29.104 --> 00:02:32.145
side and seeing just the trains moving.

00:02:32.846 --> 00:02:35.067
And when I saw that passion,

00:02:35.287 --> 00:02:36.548
I knew that I hadn't found

00:02:36.587 --> 00:02:38.087
my passion in the rail industry.

00:02:38.308 --> 00:02:40.030
And so this is what led me to high tech.

00:02:40.689 --> 00:02:42.950
And so I started to be very

00:02:43.010 --> 00:02:44.951
curious about innovation and creation.

00:02:44.991 --> 00:02:46.312
And I noticed that in the rail industry,

00:02:47.193 --> 00:02:49.574
Not only was it an old technology,

00:02:49.674 --> 00:02:51.455
there were just tons of

00:02:51.555 --> 00:02:53.075
resistance to innovation in

00:02:53.135 --> 00:02:53.895
North America.

00:02:54.616 --> 00:02:56.016
The Code of Federal Regulations,

00:02:56.097 --> 00:02:57.258
the airline lobby,

00:02:57.617 --> 00:02:59.318
there was just a lot stacked against it.

00:02:59.459 --> 00:03:00.520
When I saw what Silicon

00:03:00.539 --> 00:03:01.879
Valley was doing in terms

00:03:01.939 --> 00:03:03.520
of their playbook for innovation,

00:03:03.640 --> 00:03:05.521
I was enamored and drank the Kool-Aid.

00:03:06.521 --> 00:03:08.403
But as I started to work in

00:03:08.443 --> 00:03:10.525
a smart city scale up,

00:03:11.966 --> 00:03:13.687
we were growing rapidly and

00:03:13.706 --> 00:03:17.068
I was noticing that we lost that.

00:03:17.308 --> 00:03:18.629
It started to feel very much

00:03:18.710 --> 00:03:19.971
like the places I was

00:03:20.411 --> 00:03:21.711
previously in the rail industry.

00:03:22.051 --> 00:03:22.931
And this is when I started

00:03:22.951 --> 00:03:24.212
to have this light bulb

00:03:24.252 --> 00:03:26.074
moment of how we're

00:03:26.193 --> 00:03:27.514
organizing is what's

00:03:27.555 --> 00:03:28.575
killing the innovation.

00:03:29.616 --> 00:03:30.377
Because I was having these

00:03:30.437 --> 00:03:31.296
experiences that I was

00:03:31.336 --> 00:03:32.198
having in these large

00:03:32.638 --> 00:03:33.038
you know,

00:03:33.158 --> 00:03:34.661
passenger rail or government

00:03:34.721 --> 00:03:35.923
organization procurement

00:03:35.962 --> 00:03:37.564
programs that I used to be involved in,

00:03:37.604 --> 00:03:38.686
but I'm starting to smell

00:03:38.705 --> 00:03:41.330
them in the early stage

00:03:41.370 --> 00:03:42.550
startup as a transition

00:03:42.591 --> 00:03:43.252
into bringing in the

00:03:43.292 --> 00:03:44.413
managerial hierarchy.

00:03:45.334 --> 00:03:46.734
And this is what got me

00:03:46.794 --> 00:03:49.175
thinking about humans and

00:03:49.235 --> 00:03:50.495
how we organize and how we

00:03:50.514 --> 00:03:53.836
collaborate and innovation

00:03:53.955 --> 00:03:56.056
and progression and impact

00:03:56.377 --> 00:03:57.796
and connecting the two together.

00:03:57.817 --> 00:03:59.576
I was fascinated by this,

00:03:59.657 --> 00:04:01.418
rotated through a ton of different roles,

00:04:02.497 --> 00:04:04.938
often was pushed into project management,

00:04:05.058 --> 00:04:06.058
product management,

00:04:06.338 --> 00:04:07.878
executive leadership positions.

00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:09.419
And as I was pushed into them,

00:04:09.460 --> 00:04:10.659
I also saw the dysfunction

00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:12.260
of my relationship to my peers.

00:04:12.320 --> 00:04:13.980
We used to work alongside one another.

00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:16.081
and build amazing stuff and

00:04:16.122 --> 00:04:17.502
all of a sudden they were

00:04:17.622 --> 00:04:18.923
asking me to make decisions

00:04:18.963 --> 00:04:19.944
and the decision making was

00:04:19.983 --> 00:04:21.404
centralized into me but

00:04:21.444 --> 00:04:22.805
they had all the context so

00:04:22.824 --> 00:04:24.146
I'd ask them you know what

00:04:24.165 --> 00:04:25.146
was going on what their

00:04:25.187 --> 00:04:26.927
opinions were and then I'd

00:04:26.966 --> 00:04:27.747
have to be the ultimate

00:04:27.788 --> 00:04:29.569
decider and it really felt

00:04:29.629 --> 00:04:31.310
quite dysfunctional and so uh

00:04:32.711 --> 00:04:33.851
As I got more involved as

00:04:33.911 --> 00:04:35.392
well in considering

00:04:35.454 --> 00:04:36.475
entrepreneurship myself,

00:04:36.535 --> 00:04:37.254
I started to see the

00:04:37.274 --> 00:04:39.237
dysfunctions of the capital market,

00:04:39.377 --> 00:04:40.238
even in these innovative

00:04:40.298 --> 00:04:42.081
Silicon Valley venture

00:04:42.161 --> 00:04:44.442
funded setups and the ways

00:04:44.483 --> 00:04:46.444
in which we coordinated there seemed,

00:04:46.586 --> 00:04:46.846
you know,

00:04:48.026 --> 00:04:48.927
like something was off.

00:04:49.367 --> 00:04:51.168
And so I was looking for

00:04:51.209 --> 00:04:51.749
something different.

00:04:52.048 --> 00:04:52.930
And as I was looking for

00:04:52.970 --> 00:04:54.271
something different in 2017,

00:04:54.271 --> 00:04:59.754
I stumbled into the Ethereum.org website.

00:05:00.153 --> 00:05:02.675
And I saw these ideas around

00:05:02.696 --> 00:05:04.216
smart contracts for DAOs.

00:05:04.336 --> 00:05:05.677
And I had also recently read

00:05:05.757 --> 00:05:07.077
Reinventing Organizations

00:05:07.158 --> 00:05:08.038
by Frederick Leleu.

00:05:08.478 --> 00:05:09.480
which was taking a look at

00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:11.141
like self-organizing teams

00:05:11.201 --> 00:05:12.302
and holocracies and

00:05:12.343 --> 00:05:13.884
sociocracies and how they

00:05:13.904 --> 00:05:15.045
were actually applied out there.

00:05:15.346 --> 00:05:16.226
And there was this,

00:05:16.247 --> 00:05:17.428
this is the moment that

00:05:17.468 --> 00:05:19.990
I've been on ever since is DAOs.

00:05:20.451 --> 00:05:23.295
DAOs and using this, you know,

00:05:23.314 --> 00:05:25.036
this trustless smart

00:05:25.076 --> 00:05:27.038
contract to organize teams

00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:30.122
you know, help people organize at scale,

00:05:30.283 --> 00:05:30.944
I could see, you know,

00:05:31.264 --> 00:05:32.264
sort of the intersection of

00:05:32.285 --> 00:05:32.946
what was happening in the

00:05:33.105 --> 00:05:35.129
self-organizing organic

00:05:35.528 --> 00:05:37.190
movements that Frederick

00:05:37.230 --> 00:05:38.473
Leleu was talking about and

00:05:38.512 --> 00:05:39.834
reinventing organizations

00:05:40.194 --> 00:05:41.536
and what was happening as

00:05:41.576 --> 00:05:43.038
people were working on

00:05:43.077 --> 00:05:44.279
these blockchain technologies.

00:05:44.846 --> 00:05:46.208
and imagining what was

00:05:46.267 --> 00:05:48.389
possible and calling that a

00:05:48.428 --> 00:05:50.250
decentralized autonomous organization.

00:05:50.329 --> 00:05:52.310
And I just haven't stopped

00:05:52.331 --> 00:05:53.172
thinking about it over the

00:05:53.192 --> 00:05:53.692
last six years.

00:05:53.711 --> 00:05:54.872
So what makes me an

00:05:54.913 --> 00:05:56.392
authority is that for six

00:05:56.413 --> 00:05:57.014
years I've just been

00:05:57.053 --> 00:05:58.274
obsessed and immersed.

00:05:59.214 --> 00:06:01.136
I love immersing myself in a community.

00:06:01.196 --> 00:06:03.336
So first immersing, you know,

00:06:03.357 --> 00:06:04.317
when the infra was being

00:06:04.377 --> 00:06:06.178
laid by consensus as a part

00:06:06.259 --> 00:06:08.289
of the consensus organization in 2017,

00:06:08.289 --> 00:06:08.319
2018,

00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:09.379
as they were kind of proto-dowing it.

00:06:12.242 --> 00:06:14.062
In the 2021 phase,

00:06:14.202 --> 00:06:15.684
immersing myself in Bankless DAO,

00:06:15.704 --> 00:06:17.204
Citi DAO as a founding citizen,

00:06:17.764 --> 00:06:18.805
Polygon DAO as they were

00:06:18.824 --> 00:06:20.086
bringing up their grants program,

00:06:20.206 --> 00:06:22.346
and just many others along the way.

00:06:22.367 --> 00:06:25.668
I guess you're saying,

00:06:25.848 --> 00:06:26.848
why are you an authority?

00:06:27.108 --> 00:06:29.649
Because I played alongside

00:06:29.769 --> 00:06:30.449
those as they were

00:06:30.490 --> 00:06:31.911
experimenting for years now

00:06:32.451 --> 00:06:33.451
and have been having a lot

00:06:33.471 --> 00:06:34.091
of fun doing it.

00:06:35.543 --> 00:06:35.903
Wow.

00:06:36.463 --> 00:06:36.863
Oh, man,

00:06:36.903 --> 00:06:37.884
that makes me want to do the

00:06:37.923 --> 00:06:39.163
interview now because

00:06:39.184 --> 00:06:40.004
there's so much stuff I

00:06:40.024 --> 00:06:40.805
want to ask you about.

00:06:40.824 --> 00:06:41.644
But we're going to follow

00:06:41.704 --> 00:06:43.466
the usual format and we're

00:06:43.485 --> 00:06:45.666
going to go do the news first,

00:06:45.726 --> 00:06:47.028
but encourage people to

00:06:47.067 --> 00:06:48.998
stick around for at least 30,

00:06:48.998 --> 00:06:50.108
40 minutes until we get

00:06:50.149 --> 00:06:51.269
through the news to hear

00:06:51.488 --> 00:06:54.110
more about BP's background in the space.

00:06:54.149 --> 00:06:55.850
A lot of interesting stuff

00:06:55.870 --> 00:06:57.471
we could dig into there.

00:06:58.351 --> 00:06:59.634
um and and a lot of stuff

00:06:59.653 --> 00:07:00.374
you haven't even mentioned

00:07:00.394 --> 00:07:01.014
yet like what you're

00:07:01.035 --> 00:07:02.076
working on now so we will

00:07:02.096 --> 00:07:03.557
get to that soon but first

00:07:03.757 --> 00:07:05.798
the just out news report so

00:07:05.838 --> 00:07:06.879
again I will summarize each

00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:07.821
of these stories for the

00:07:07.841 --> 00:07:09.641
audience and for the guests

00:07:10.043 --> 00:07:11.244
and then we will share our

00:07:11.343 --> 00:07:13.144
reactions so the first

00:07:13.206 --> 00:07:14.466
story of the week this is

00:07:14.547 --> 00:07:16.187
from the royal gazette

00:07:16.649 --> 00:07:18.769
which is a bermuda a newspaper

00:07:19.670 --> 00:07:21.934
And the headline is BDA

00:07:22.274 --> 00:07:24.615
legal committee establishes new doubt.

00:07:25.177 --> 00:07:26.358
The Bermuda Business

00:07:26.377 --> 00:07:27.439
Development Agency has

00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:28.701
established a working group

00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:30.401
to investigate law reform

00:07:30.442 --> 00:07:31.723
proposals for the

00:07:31.803 --> 00:07:33.045
introduction of digital

00:07:33.125 --> 00:07:34.125
governance models.

00:07:34.906 --> 00:07:37.648
So this is great in two ways, I would say.

00:07:38.468 --> 00:07:40.088
One is that Bermuda is

00:07:40.148 --> 00:07:42.709
looking at updating their

00:07:42.788 --> 00:07:47.009
laws to reflect and respect DAOs,

00:07:47.089 --> 00:07:48.649
which obviously is the line

00:07:48.689 --> 00:07:49.490
of work that I'm in,

00:07:49.529 --> 00:07:51.350
most of our listeners know and you know,

00:07:52.290 --> 00:07:54.531
which is writing laws for DAOs and Web3.

00:07:54.550 --> 00:07:56.372
And they're actually doing

00:07:56.411 --> 00:07:57.112
it through a DAO,

00:07:57.211 --> 00:07:58.812
which is the second time I've seen this.

00:07:58.992 --> 00:08:01.153
I mean, they're starting a DAO

00:08:01.812 --> 00:08:03.774
which is I think it's the working group.

00:08:03.795 --> 00:08:05.735
I would love to know what is

00:08:05.836 --> 00:08:06.637
different about this

00:08:06.697 --> 00:08:07.956
working group from their

00:08:08.038 --> 00:08:09.639
other working groups such

00:08:09.658 --> 00:08:10.538
that they're calling it a

00:08:10.579 --> 00:08:12.139
DAO or is it just a DAO in

00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:13.221
name only and it's really

00:08:13.261 --> 00:08:14.661
just a working group?

00:08:15.822 --> 00:08:16.824
That is not something I was

00:08:16.903 --> 00:08:18.884
able to find out,

00:08:18.964 --> 00:08:20.605
but I think it's the second

00:08:20.625 --> 00:08:22.107
or third time I've heard of a country,

00:08:22.146 --> 00:08:23.747
I think Japan might have done this too,

00:08:24.129 --> 00:08:24.889
where they said we're

00:08:24.928 --> 00:08:27.250
starting a DAO to look into DAOs.

00:08:27.750 --> 00:08:28.732
Even the United Nations

00:08:28.791 --> 00:08:29.752
might have done this.

00:08:30.954 --> 00:08:32.595
So anyway, it's exciting to see.

00:08:32.975 --> 00:08:33.556
I must admit,

00:08:33.596 --> 00:08:35.157
I've seen probably 10 or 15

00:08:35.157 --> 00:08:36.759
countries now launch

00:08:36.839 --> 00:08:38.100
working groups to look at

00:08:38.419 --> 00:08:40.062
DAO-specific legislation,

00:08:40.201 --> 00:08:41.842
and very few have come out

00:08:41.883 --> 00:08:43.325
on the other side taking any action.

00:08:43.384 --> 00:08:44.926
But I certainly hope Bermuda

00:08:44.946 --> 00:08:46.267
will be different here.

00:08:46.868 --> 00:08:47.347
What do you think, BP?

00:08:48.695 --> 00:08:48.855
Well,

00:08:49.095 --> 00:08:50.317
I think they've got the right approach.

00:08:51.038 --> 00:08:52.219
I hadn't heard about this

00:08:52.259 --> 00:08:53.120
being the second time.

00:08:53.139 --> 00:08:54.501
So this is news to me of

00:08:55.043 --> 00:08:56.183
taking the approach of

00:08:56.323 --> 00:08:59.027
being a DAO to investigate DAOs.

00:08:59.086 --> 00:09:00.369
And I think it's the only way.

00:09:00.649 --> 00:09:02.270
I think that they've got the

00:09:02.291 --> 00:09:02.991
right idea there.

00:09:03.052 --> 00:09:05.274
And even if they're DAO in name only,

00:09:06.274 --> 00:09:07.816
as many of the DAOs were

00:09:07.875 --> 00:09:10.216
that I experienced in the 2021 cycle,

00:09:10.677 --> 00:09:12.238
that in itself is its own learning.

00:09:12.278 --> 00:09:13.938
So, you know, as I said, my intro,

00:09:14.119 --> 00:09:15.519
immersion is the way to learn.

00:09:15.860 --> 00:09:17.100
And so I think they've got

00:09:17.140 --> 00:09:18.100
the right idea there.

00:09:18.301 --> 00:09:19.701
And even if it's not

00:09:19.741 --> 00:09:22.182
successful immediately from

00:09:22.222 --> 00:09:23.063
this working group and the

00:09:23.104 --> 00:09:23.803
subsequent work,

00:09:24.423 --> 00:09:25.245
the individuals who have

00:09:25.284 --> 00:09:26.865
participated will carry that on.

00:09:26.926 --> 00:09:27.745
And I think that's the most

00:09:27.785 --> 00:09:29.506
important aspect of it for

00:09:29.547 --> 00:09:31.067
Bermuda and for the space.

00:09:32.128 --> 00:09:33.349
Yeah, and if you're curious,

00:09:33.389 --> 00:09:34.688
I just Googled it,

00:09:34.708 --> 00:09:36.070
and I know we talked about

00:09:36.110 --> 00:09:37.191
this at the time on the show,

00:09:37.230 --> 00:09:40.793
but in December of 2023, so about six,

00:09:40.812 --> 00:09:42.714
seven months ago, the UN,

00:09:43.234 --> 00:09:45.294
United Nations Internet Governance Forum,

00:09:45.355 --> 00:09:49.177
said it formed a group to initiate a DAO.

00:09:49.756 --> 00:09:52.538
So I guess that's one step before.

00:09:53.158 --> 00:09:54.659
They didn't say we created a DAO.

00:09:54.679 --> 00:09:55.419
They said we created

00:09:55.460 --> 00:09:56.541
something to create a DAO,

00:09:56.581 --> 00:09:58.841
but still nice to see

00:09:59.022 --> 00:10:00.302
governments and intergovernmental

00:10:00.643 --> 00:10:01.903
national governing bodies

00:10:02.404 --> 00:10:04.706
experimenting with dows um

00:10:05.067 --> 00:10:07.931
the next story of the week this one is

00:10:10.966 --> 00:10:12.467
This one is from ZK Sync.

00:10:12.727 --> 00:10:14.969
Sorry, well, the article is from The Block,

00:10:15.490 --> 00:10:17.211
and I also have the tweet

00:10:17.630 --> 00:10:20.092
or post up here on X from ZK Nation.

00:10:20.653 --> 00:10:21.413
The headline is,

00:10:21.894 --> 00:10:23.634
ZK Sync introduces a

00:10:23.695 --> 00:10:24.955
decentralized governance

00:10:24.995 --> 00:10:26.897
framework called ZK Nation.

00:10:27.517 --> 00:10:29.077
ZK Sync has introduced a new

00:10:29.138 --> 00:10:30.879
community-driven governance framework.

00:10:31.219 --> 00:10:33.000
It consists of three on-chain bodies,

00:10:33.100 --> 00:10:35.662
the Token Assembly, the Security Council,

00:10:35.981 --> 00:10:36.743
and the Guardians.

00:10:37.623 --> 00:10:38.763
And then there's also a

00:10:38.842 --> 00:10:42.365
linked post on X from the ZK Nation,

00:10:42.404 --> 00:10:44.284
which appears to be the

00:10:44.325 --> 00:10:47.986
main X account for ZK Sync,

00:10:48.807 --> 00:10:50.346
at least for one of the ZK

00:10:50.386 --> 00:10:51.327
Sync organizations.

00:10:52.028 --> 00:10:52.847
And there's a whole

00:10:52.888 --> 00:10:54.188
announcement that goes into

00:10:54.269 --> 00:10:57.470
the details on their new governance body.

00:10:57.809 --> 00:11:00.471
Basically, ZK Sync is Dao-ifying, right?

00:11:00.490 --> 00:11:01.091
They're saying, hey,

00:11:01.130 --> 00:11:03.011
instead of us being in charge,

00:11:03.412 --> 00:11:04.792
we're giving control to

00:11:04.812 --> 00:11:07.052
this new decentralized organization

00:11:07.253 --> 00:11:08.153
And maybe it's fair to call

00:11:08.173 --> 00:11:09.033
it a framework because

00:11:09.072 --> 00:11:11.053
really they have multiple

00:11:11.214 --> 00:11:12.874
organizations in the

00:11:12.913 --> 00:11:14.115
traditional sense of the word.

00:11:14.154 --> 00:11:15.975
They have these three different bodies,

00:11:16.394 --> 00:11:17.154
which apparently,

00:11:17.394 --> 00:11:18.215
according to the article,

00:11:18.235 --> 00:11:19.936
also have their own legal forms.

00:11:20.436 --> 00:11:21.635
So each has its own legal

00:11:21.716 --> 00:11:22.875
entity and legal form,

00:11:23.256 --> 00:11:24.336
and they all interact

00:11:25.057 --> 00:11:27.297
collectively to govern the

00:11:27.496 --> 00:11:29.158
ZK-SYNC protocol.

00:11:30.317 --> 00:11:32.879
So, you know, let me see, BP, it's first.

00:11:32.958 --> 00:11:34.239
Anything you want to dig into here?

00:11:35.634 --> 00:11:37.716
I think this is exciting.

00:11:37.855 --> 00:11:39.018
I hadn't heard of this news,

00:11:39.077 --> 00:11:41.360
but I had heard that the ZK drop

00:11:42.023 --> 00:11:43.504
uh had a large proportion of

00:11:43.563 --> 00:11:44.644
tokens going to the

00:11:44.663 --> 00:11:45.924
community and I think that

00:11:45.965 --> 00:11:47.105
in itself was already a

00:11:47.144 --> 00:11:48.024
really strong signal

00:11:48.085 --> 00:11:49.105
following it up with this

00:11:49.346 --> 00:11:51.626
is really uh powerful when

00:11:51.667 --> 00:11:53.427
coupled to that um I think

00:11:53.768 --> 00:11:55.207
and I there's some things

00:11:55.248 --> 00:11:56.227
about this that remind me

00:11:56.248 --> 00:11:57.428
of when optimism was

00:11:57.469 --> 00:11:59.570
pushing their two house um

00:11:59.909 --> 00:12:02.250
model and uh and and trying

00:12:02.270 --> 00:12:03.451
to innovate on how we

00:12:03.490 --> 00:12:05.611
approach uh dow governance

00:12:05.772 --> 00:12:07.692
and I think that's done a lot of good

00:12:08.472 --> 00:12:10.234
for us as a group to sort of

00:12:10.293 --> 00:12:11.293
see something different.

00:12:11.653 --> 00:12:13.335
And so if zk sync is now

00:12:13.375 --> 00:12:15.336
doing a multi party sort of

00:12:15.395 --> 00:12:17.115
setup has dropped a lot of

00:12:17.176 --> 00:12:19.017
tokens to community and

00:12:19.057 --> 00:12:20.998
continues to plan to do so

00:12:21.118 --> 00:12:22.437
that allows for them to

00:12:22.479 --> 00:12:23.538
have the right incentives

00:12:23.899 --> 00:12:25.399
to do the tough work to

00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:26.840
work on the DAO its

00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:27.740
operations and its

00:12:27.780 --> 00:12:28.760
governance and not just

00:12:28.801 --> 00:12:31.162
kind of plow forward and say, Oh,

00:12:31.201 --> 00:12:32.422
we're a DAO like they're

00:12:32.481 --> 00:12:33.802
willing to work on the DAO

00:12:34.023 --> 00:12:34.722
and they're putting the

00:12:34.743 --> 00:12:35.943
correct incentives to do it.

00:12:36.063 --> 00:12:36.524
And so that's a

00:12:36.543 --> 00:12:36.964
exciting.

00:12:37.144 --> 00:12:38.544
I'm curious to see where this goes.

00:12:39.865 --> 00:12:40.505
Yeah.

00:12:40.525 --> 00:12:41.745
And one of the things I have

00:12:41.785 --> 00:12:44.187
to dig into here, you know,

00:12:44.207 --> 00:12:45.168
there's just part of me

00:12:45.227 --> 00:12:49.610
that reacts to having a well, really,

00:12:49.649 --> 00:12:51.250
there's almost two bodies

00:12:51.291 --> 00:12:52.230
here with veto power.

00:12:52.711 --> 00:12:54.091
There's the guardians who

00:12:54.131 --> 00:12:56.133
seem to have overall veto

00:12:56.173 --> 00:12:57.974
power to keep things

00:12:58.254 --> 00:12:59.654
aligned with the quote

00:12:59.674 --> 00:13:01.515
unquote values of the project.

00:13:02.535 --> 00:13:04.738
And there's also a security

00:13:04.937 --> 00:13:06.620
council that has the

00:13:06.659 --> 00:13:08.841
ability to freeze the chain

00:13:09.461 --> 00:13:10.703
if there's a security threat.

00:13:11.443 --> 00:13:14.167
And at least part of me wants to say, man,

00:13:14.226 --> 00:13:14.466
I mean,

00:13:14.527 --> 00:13:16.307
one of the cool things about DAOs

00:13:16.828 --> 00:13:18.770
is that you can be

00:13:19.171 --> 00:13:21.173
completely democratic if you want to.

00:13:21.732 --> 00:13:23.375
You don't have to have a security council.

00:13:23.414 --> 00:13:24.735
You don't have to have guardians.

00:13:24.755 --> 00:13:25.636
You don't have to have a board.

00:13:25.677 --> 00:13:26.697
You don't have to have a CEO,

00:13:26.977 --> 00:13:27.618
stuff like that.

00:13:28.038 --> 00:13:28.820
But I think...

00:13:29.830 --> 00:13:30.591
increasingly,

00:13:30.650 --> 00:13:32.432
but even since the beginning of DAOs,

00:13:32.493 --> 00:13:34.195
you do have DAOs that have

00:13:34.475 --> 00:13:36.236
these small groups,

00:13:36.256 --> 00:13:37.258
I think it's fair to say

00:13:37.298 --> 00:13:38.198
centralized groups,

00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:40.361
that have some kind of veto power.

00:13:41.062 --> 00:13:42.644
And I'm not necessarily against it.

00:13:42.703 --> 00:13:43.826
I just think it's

00:13:43.885 --> 00:13:45.707
interesting to note that even with

00:13:47.498 --> 00:13:50.239
the option of going total

00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:52.440
democracy a lot of

00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:54.061
organizations are choosing

00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:55.500
something kind of in

00:13:55.562 --> 00:13:57.302
between and I wonder if

00:13:57.361 --> 00:13:58.302
that's just is that just a

00:13:58.363 --> 00:14:00.724
temporary band-aid until

00:14:00.764 --> 00:14:02.104
dows figure out how to do

00:14:02.163 --> 00:14:04.325
direct democracy better are

00:14:04.365 --> 00:14:05.166
we always going to have

00:14:05.206 --> 00:14:08.086
centralized groups in

00:14:08.386 --> 00:14:10.648
decentralized ecosystems

00:14:11.227 --> 00:14:13.328
what do you think yeah so I

00:14:13.568 --> 00:14:15.090
love this and I i think

00:14:15.672 --> 00:14:16.712
At the end of the day,

00:14:16.852 --> 00:14:17.714
that's why I'm just

00:14:17.734 --> 00:14:20.375
celebrating experiments and

00:14:20.416 --> 00:14:22.357
not necessarily infusing my own opinion.

00:14:22.378 --> 00:14:22.938
And I think it's because

00:14:22.958 --> 00:14:24.259
it's such a complex domain

00:14:24.299 --> 00:14:25.701
that we kind of need to be

00:14:25.740 --> 00:14:27.101
playing with both, you know.

00:14:27.201 --> 00:14:28.423
And I remember, you know,

00:14:28.462 --> 00:14:29.083
from a lot of the battles

00:14:29.104 --> 00:14:30.044
that I was participating in

00:14:30.065 --> 00:14:30.705
the last cycle,

00:14:30.725 --> 00:14:32.586
there was this dialogue around, you know,

00:14:32.626 --> 00:14:33.268
how aggressively you

00:14:33.307 --> 00:14:34.609
decentralize versus whether

00:14:34.629 --> 00:14:35.909
you centralize things into conventions.

00:14:35.929 --> 00:14:37.051
committees, grants committees,

00:14:38.331 --> 00:14:39.511
these types of centralized

00:14:39.572 --> 00:14:41.133
authorities that may or may

00:14:41.192 --> 00:14:42.332
not last forever that are

00:14:42.352 --> 00:14:44.193
there to kind of like protect, guard,

00:14:44.274 --> 00:14:47.456
guardians, security, et cetera.

00:14:47.556 --> 00:14:49.076
These are worthy reasons to

00:14:49.135 --> 00:14:50.557
perhaps in an early phase

00:14:50.596 --> 00:14:52.577
of experimentation, centralized power.

00:14:53.177 --> 00:14:55.318
But I do agree with you that

00:14:55.418 --> 00:14:56.600
like this should be

00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:57.340
something that we're

00:14:57.379 --> 00:15:00.361
continuing to push towards

00:15:00.442 --> 00:15:02.322
more decentralization when

00:15:02.363 --> 00:15:03.322
we can have the confidence

00:15:03.363 --> 00:15:04.203
and comfort to do so.

00:15:04.823 --> 00:15:05.865
And unfortunately,

00:15:06.044 --> 00:15:06.804
it takes people to

00:15:06.865 --> 00:15:09.025
experiment and risk capture,

00:15:09.105 --> 00:15:09.966
because at the other end of

00:15:09.986 --> 00:15:12.427
the spectrum is we push decentralization.

00:15:12.488 --> 00:15:13.788
We don't have the right mechanisms,

00:15:13.849 --> 00:15:15.509
tokenomics, et cetera, in place.

00:15:16.090 --> 00:15:17.051
And and then something

00:15:17.110 --> 00:15:18.772
beautiful that we wish

00:15:18.851 --> 00:15:20.452
lasted actually gets captured.

00:15:20.533 --> 00:15:23.134
And so I see this trade off

00:15:23.894 --> 00:15:24.715
and I don't think that

00:15:24.735 --> 00:15:25.774
there's a perfect answer.

00:15:26.155 --> 00:15:27.395
And so I'm just enthusiastic

00:15:27.436 --> 00:15:28.576
about people trying something.

00:15:28.956 --> 00:15:30.317
And I hope that because

00:15:30.357 --> 00:15:32.558
there's a lot of folks who

00:15:33.278 --> 00:15:34.200
are token holders and

00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:35.659
hopefully that the token

00:15:35.700 --> 00:15:38.581
distribution is strongly decentralized,

00:15:39.042 --> 00:15:40.361
that could at least produce

00:15:40.402 --> 00:15:41.663
the correct pushback.

00:15:42.003 --> 00:15:43.183
If centralization of power

00:15:43.244 --> 00:15:44.984
is not actually serving the community,

00:15:45.605 --> 00:15:48.145
then social pressure is just as powerful,

00:15:48.285 --> 00:15:48.605
I think.

00:15:50.126 --> 00:15:52.908
And we would hope that that's what drives,

00:15:53.648 --> 00:15:53.948
I guess,

00:15:54.009 --> 00:15:55.188
the transition to something more

00:15:55.229 --> 00:15:56.269
decentralized over time.

00:15:57.350 --> 00:15:58.010
even though maybe it's

00:15:58.030 --> 00:15:58.711
starting the way it is.

00:16:00.493 --> 00:16:01.153
Yeah, for sure.

00:16:01.193 --> 00:16:01.394
I mean,

00:16:01.413 --> 00:16:03.416
it reminds me even of what's

00:16:03.456 --> 00:16:07.259
happening in purple DAO right now,

00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:08.561
which I think we're both in, right?

00:16:08.640 --> 00:16:09.341
Are you in purple?

00:16:10.001 --> 00:16:11.283
So for anyone who doesn't know,

00:16:11.302 --> 00:16:12.004
although I've probably

00:16:12.024 --> 00:16:12.845
talked about it a lot,

00:16:12.884 --> 00:16:14.505
but purple is a noun-ish

00:16:14.546 --> 00:16:17.688
DAO that drives growth of

00:16:17.729 --> 00:16:19.750
the forecaster ecosystem unofficially,

00:16:19.890 --> 00:16:21.373
not an official forecaster ecosystem.

00:16:21.653 --> 00:16:23.754
It's not officially the Forcaster DAO,

00:16:23.774 --> 00:16:26.054
but in some ways it is unofficially.

00:16:26.075 --> 00:16:28.316
And we've always actually

00:16:28.375 --> 00:16:33.577
had a veto power vested in one person.

00:16:34.398 --> 00:16:34.979
And actually,

00:16:35.019 --> 00:16:36.538
so now what we're talking about doing,

00:16:36.578 --> 00:16:38.100
there's a proposal live to

00:16:38.299 --> 00:16:39.340
decentralize that a bit

00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:41.760
more and elect a security council.

00:16:42.302 --> 00:16:43.302
And so actually moving in

00:16:43.341 --> 00:16:45.202
the direction of more decentralization.

00:16:45.222 --> 00:16:47.043
But in that direction,

00:16:48.063 --> 00:16:49.485
scenario I don't know it's

00:16:49.504 --> 00:16:50.585
never really bothered me

00:16:50.625 --> 00:16:52.346
that we have someone with a

00:16:52.405 --> 00:16:53.926
veto power you know their

00:16:53.966 --> 00:16:56.447
job is to make sure that we

00:16:56.486 --> 00:16:58.427
generally stay on mission

00:16:59.488 --> 00:17:02.330
and um I guess it's a

00:17:02.750 --> 00:17:04.410
function that holds in some

00:17:04.430 --> 00:17:05.310
ways like helps hold the

00:17:05.351 --> 00:17:07.991
dow together at least from a like

00:17:09.109 --> 00:17:09.410
I don't know.

00:17:09.430 --> 00:17:09.569
I mean,

00:17:09.589 --> 00:17:10.550
I'm thinking if a third of the

00:17:10.570 --> 00:17:11.731
people wanted to go work on

00:17:11.751 --> 00:17:13.874
a different mission, they can't, right?

00:17:13.894 --> 00:17:14.875
They're going to get vetoed

00:17:14.934 --> 00:17:16.036
even if they tried to vote

00:17:16.076 --> 00:17:16.997
in a different direction.

00:17:17.317 --> 00:17:20.558
We also saw what happens with NounsDAO,

00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:22.161
which maybe to your point

00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:23.442
shows the power of social

00:17:23.481 --> 00:17:24.403
pressure because when

00:17:24.442 --> 00:17:25.282
enough of the people

00:17:26.163 --> 00:17:27.905
who had the actual NFT

00:17:28.586 --> 00:17:30.429
wanted to fork and take

00:17:30.450 --> 00:17:31.351
their money elsewhere,

00:17:31.530 --> 00:17:32.992
eventually even the

00:17:33.353 --> 00:17:35.134
security counsel or veto

00:17:35.955 --> 00:17:37.679
person gave in and said, okay,

00:17:37.719 --> 00:17:39.059
we'll have to just allow you to do it.

00:17:40.321 --> 00:17:42.424
So anyways, interesting to note.

00:17:43.919 --> 00:17:44.559
Yeah,

00:17:44.579 --> 00:17:46.361
and I think that's when we play with

00:17:46.381 --> 00:17:48.962
those mechanisms of like a

00:17:50.785 --> 00:17:51.806
decentralized smart

00:17:51.865 --> 00:17:53.366
contract of governance

00:17:54.008 --> 00:17:56.509
having control over centralizing power,

00:17:57.069 --> 00:17:58.510
then that to me,

00:17:58.612 --> 00:17:59.932
those are more experiments

00:17:59.952 --> 00:18:00.673
that I want to see.

00:18:00.894 --> 00:18:01.614
I want to see,

00:18:01.693 --> 00:18:03.174
and I'm wearing my HATS hat

00:18:03.355 --> 00:18:05.917
and I'm a member of the HATS protodow.

00:18:06.577 --> 00:18:09.058
And I like the idea of being

00:18:09.138 --> 00:18:11.119
able to play with having a

00:18:11.500 --> 00:18:13.580
very decentralized group,

00:18:13.701 --> 00:18:15.781
being able to make those big shifts,

00:18:17.001 --> 00:18:18.363
but moving power

00:18:18.502 --> 00:18:22.684
functionally into roles that people play.

00:18:22.744 --> 00:18:24.065
And Security Council is a role,

00:18:24.204 --> 00:18:25.566
and if the community is

00:18:25.605 --> 00:18:26.546
struggling with how that

00:18:26.605 --> 00:18:27.686
role is being fulfilled,

00:18:28.067 --> 00:18:28.547
that they have the

00:18:28.586 --> 00:18:29.586
opportunity to do something,

00:18:29.688 --> 00:18:30.528
whether it's exit,

00:18:31.067 --> 00:18:33.631
fork or change who's wearing the hat,

00:18:33.711 --> 00:18:34.772
there's something about

00:18:34.932 --> 00:18:37.276
that power living with the

00:18:37.316 --> 00:18:39.038
decentralized community that's important.

00:18:40.219 --> 00:18:41.259
Yeah, that's a really good point.

00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:43.803
So reflecting back on ZK Nation, if

00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:47.261
this Security Council is

00:18:47.321 --> 00:18:48.603
elected democratically,

00:18:49.083 --> 00:18:50.884
that would make me feel, I think,

00:18:50.924 --> 00:18:53.446
much better in my gut about

00:18:53.887 --> 00:18:54.949
the direction this DAO is

00:18:54.969 --> 00:18:56.790
going versus if it's put

00:18:56.851 --> 00:18:58.271
into place by the founders

00:18:58.913 --> 00:19:00.733
and can only elect itself,

00:19:02.236 --> 00:19:03.115
then I would feel like

00:19:03.196 --> 00:19:04.478
maybe that's a little bit

00:19:04.518 --> 00:19:05.979
of a step back in terms of

00:19:06.579 --> 00:19:07.681
true decentralization.

00:19:08.854 --> 00:19:09.114
Yeah.

00:19:09.575 --> 00:19:09.654
Yeah.

00:19:09.674 --> 00:19:10.355
And it's interesting because

00:19:10.375 --> 00:19:11.195
when I think of an L2 and

00:19:11.236 --> 00:19:12.396
I'm like thinking on the spot,

00:19:12.438 --> 00:19:13.397
but I feel like I should

00:19:13.417 --> 00:19:13.898
give this more

00:19:14.239 --> 00:19:16.221
consideration that when it

00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:17.561
comes to things like L2B,

00:19:17.702 --> 00:19:18.844
taking a look at this sort

00:19:18.864 --> 00:19:20.384
of health of an L2,

00:19:22.227 --> 00:19:25.269
that your ability to exit

00:19:25.329 --> 00:19:27.612
safely and to move your

00:19:27.652 --> 00:19:29.493
liquidity and to sell your

00:19:29.534 --> 00:19:30.434
token on the open market.

00:19:30.855 --> 00:19:31.556
Like in many ways,

00:19:31.635 --> 00:19:32.476
these are the things that

00:19:32.516 --> 00:19:34.436
protect you as a token

00:19:34.477 --> 00:19:36.597
holder or a participant in the ecosystem.

00:19:37.018 --> 00:19:37.878
And I think some of the

00:19:37.898 --> 00:19:38.419
things that can be

00:19:38.558 --> 00:19:40.660
concerning is as an L2 is maturing,

00:19:40.940 --> 00:19:42.181
if the exits aren't as

00:19:42.260 --> 00:19:43.362
clean and permissionless,

00:19:44.041 --> 00:19:45.021
then these types of

00:19:45.082 --> 00:19:46.962
centralization vectors have

00:19:47.002 --> 00:19:48.864
a lot more power that they're holding.

00:19:48.903 --> 00:19:49.585
And so the other thing that

00:19:49.625 --> 00:19:50.605
can happen is changing the

00:19:50.644 --> 00:19:51.546
amount of power they're

00:19:51.566 --> 00:19:55.387
holding is another way to

00:19:55.708 --> 00:19:58.169
deal with progressively

00:19:58.328 --> 00:20:00.130
decentralizing this, so to speak.

00:20:01.137 --> 00:20:02.459
Yeah, well, what I'm hearing from you, too,

00:20:02.558 --> 00:20:04.499
is that just having a way

00:20:04.679 --> 00:20:07.681
out is a form of decentralized power.

00:20:08.300 --> 00:20:11.061
And so even if... I mean,

00:20:11.082 --> 00:20:12.041
I'm even imagining it.

00:20:12.362 --> 00:20:13.462
Let's say we started DAO

00:20:13.502 --> 00:20:15.523
today for some purpose,

00:20:15.743 --> 00:20:16.784
and power is actually

00:20:16.824 --> 00:20:18.805
highly concentrated in the hands of a few,

00:20:19.384 --> 00:20:21.445
but anyone can rage quit or

00:20:21.546 --> 00:20:23.166
sell easily anytime.

00:20:24.186 --> 00:20:25.667
Maybe that's just more

00:20:25.728 --> 00:20:26.627
decentralized than a

00:20:26.667 --> 00:20:28.048
traditional organization where...

00:20:29.750 --> 00:20:30.530
They have the same

00:20:30.590 --> 00:20:31.874
centralized power structure,

00:20:31.973 --> 00:20:33.857
but they also hold a lot

00:20:33.897 --> 00:20:35.221
more power over you as an

00:20:35.260 --> 00:20:37.244
individual and what you get

00:20:37.545 --> 00:20:38.627
or don't get if you leave.

00:20:40.305 --> 00:20:40.944
Yeah.

00:20:41.125 --> 00:20:42.185
And I think this is like the

00:20:42.246 --> 00:20:43.385
interesting thing is it,

00:20:44.007 --> 00:20:46.647
it takes some real rigor to

00:20:46.688 --> 00:20:47.768
take a look at the full

00:20:47.907 --> 00:20:50.669
complicated and complex

00:20:50.729 --> 00:20:51.730
system that exists.

00:20:52.470 --> 00:20:52.609
And,

00:20:52.890 --> 00:20:54.631
and this is why it all feels like an

00:20:54.671 --> 00:20:56.451
experiment because it's like, well,

00:20:56.672 --> 00:20:57.652
we'll find the things that

00:20:57.672 --> 00:20:59.373
didn't work according to design.

00:21:00.353 --> 00:21:01.354
And some of the failures

00:21:01.374 --> 00:21:02.534
would be catastrophic and

00:21:02.574 --> 00:21:04.255
have been right from the very first one,

00:21:04.454 --> 00:21:06.996
the Dow and the Dow itself.

00:21:07.583 --> 00:21:08.826
I think we learn from these

00:21:09.166 --> 00:21:11.393
and as someone who's in early,

00:21:11.413 --> 00:21:15.143
I like to expect them and

00:21:15.242 --> 00:21:16.586
encourage others to expect them.

00:21:17.335 --> 00:21:17.515
Yep.

00:21:17.835 --> 00:21:18.016
Yep.

00:21:18.316 --> 00:21:18.635
Love it.

00:21:19.497 --> 00:21:19.797
All right.

00:21:20.076 --> 00:21:21.498
Turning to the next story of the week.

00:21:21.678 --> 00:21:25.040
This one is a post on X from Vitalik.

00:21:26.021 --> 00:21:28.022
And I'll just read part of it.

00:21:28.462 --> 00:21:29.223
Vitalik says,

00:21:29.703 --> 00:21:31.005
I am feeling quite unhappy

00:21:31.144 --> 00:21:32.185
about this cycle's

00:21:32.306 --> 00:21:34.307
celebrity experimentation so far.

00:21:35.107 --> 00:21:36.449
Talking about celebrity meme

00:21:36.489 --> 00:21:37.789
coins that have been coming out,

00:21:38.111 --> 00:21:39.612
including Mother,

00:21:39.711 --> 00:21:41.012
which I don't... What is Mother?

00:21:41.053 --> 00:21:41.432
Do you know?

00:21:41.492 --> 00:21:41.952
Is that...

00:21:42.849 --> 00:21:44.451
that about um is that about

00:21:44.471 --> 00:21:46.835
the political thing no no

00:21:46.894 --> 00:21:48.957
it's I i can't remember the

00:21:48.997 --> 00:21:51.519
famous um uh star who's

00:21:51.559 --> 00:21:52.882
driving it and this is this

00:21:52.902 --> 00:21:54.303
is how little interest it's

00:21:54.323 --> 00:21:58.907
like it goes yeah famous

00:21:58.928 --> 00:22:00.609
star created token um

00:22:00.951 --> 00:22:03.373
mother's the token and uh there is

00:22:04.690 --> 00:22:04.970
Yeah,

00:22:05.611 --> 00:22:07.172
what I'm getting from Vitalik and his

00:22:07.211 --> 00:22:09.453
commentary was that celebrities do this.

00:22:09.554 --> 00:22:10.894
Jenner did one recently.

00:22:11.315 --> 00:22:11.996
Previous cycles,

00:22:12.036 --> 00:22:13.978
there's been these types of

00:22:14.038 --> 00:22:15.098
celebrity tokens.

00:22:15.818 --> 00:22:16.779
I think Paris Hilton got in

00:22:16.819 --> 00:22:19.461
trouble with the SEC for one, if I recall,

00:22:19.481 --> 00:22:21.083
or someone.

00:22:21.503 --> 00:22:23.025
Actually, one of the Kardashians did.

00:22:23.085 --> 00:22:26.167
So they just use their clout, pump token,

00:22:26.367 --> 00:22:27.288
and it's basically a meme

00:22:27.328 --> 00:22:29.009
token with a celebrity backing it.

00:22:29.717 --> 00:22:29.957
Um,

00:22:30.057 --> 00:22:31.317
and adding the firepower of their

00:22:31.357 --> 00:22:33.259
existing community, which is a, that's,

00:22:33.598 --> 00:22:34.098
that's a,

00:22:34.179 --> 00:22:35.319
that's a shortcut to starting a

00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:36.700
meme token really at the end of the day.

00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:38.060
And so, you know,

00:22:38.201 --> 00:22:39.402
where I listened to

00:22:39.442 --> 00:22:42.022
Vitalik's commentary on this and, uh,

00:22:42.282 --> 00:22:46.144
fully agree with it is sort of the, um,

00:22:46.758 --> 00:22:48.498
relatively lame versions of

00:22:48.558 --> 00:22:49.719
it we're seeing this cycle.

00:22:49.999 --> 00:22:52.539
And so I think Vitalik was

00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:54.700
close to Mila Kunin's

00:22:54.779 --> 00:22:56.121
action to Kusher when they

00:22:56.141 --> 00:22:58.280
did Stoner Cats NFT in the last cycle.

00:22:58.421 --> 00:23:00.701
And I am a original mentor

00:23:00.801 --> 00:23:02.402
and holder of the Stoner Cats NFT.

00:23:02.821 --> 00:23:04.282
And so I loved what was happening there.

00:23:04.442 --> 00:23:05.742
I saw celebrities coming in

00:23:06.323 --> 00:23:08.304
and trying to do an animated series

00:23:08.865 --> 00:23:10.867
where you got an insider's view.

00:23:10.948 --> 00:23:12.328
They had to deal with the SEC.

00:23:13.549 --> 00:23:15.030
You know, they were hoping to not,

00:23:15.892 --> 00:23:16.132
you know,

00:23:16.251 --> 00:23:18.053
create it such that we co-owned

00:23:18.114 --> 00:23:19.755
the creation because they

00:23:19.795 --> 00:23:20.895
were trying to avoid

00:23:20.935 --> 00:23:22.257
running afoul with the SEC.

00:23:22.416 --> 00:23:23.877
The SEC ended up ironically

00:23:23.897 --> 00:23:25.459
shutting them down anyways on the project,

00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:26.180
but they were trying to

00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:27.760
create utility for fans to

00:23:27.780 --> 00:23:29.363
get an insider experience.

00:23:29.502 --> 00:23:30.763
Their token would unlock.

00:23:30.784 --> 00:23:31.624
You believe you watch the

00:23:31.663 --> 00:23:33.105
shows as they were coming off the press.

00:23:33.125 --> 00:23:35.467
You could meet the animators and have like,

00:23:35.527 --> 00:23:36.888
you know, town halls with them.

00:23:37.308 --> 00:23:37.429
Like,

00:23:37.701 --> 00:23:39.343
I thought that was really innovative.

00:23:39.383 --> 00:23:40.183
They're using their star

00:23:40.223 --> 00:23:43.267
power and their domain of

00:23:43.307 --> 00:23:44.688
making shows and movies and

00:23:44.708 --> 00:23:45.568
their connections into the

00:23:45.608 --> 00:23:46.409
Hollywood engine.

00:23:47.049 --> 00:23:48.351
And they were combining that

00:23:48.471 --> 00:23:49.971
and opening it up to fans.

00:23:50.231 --> 00:23:51.653
And they had governance to

00:23:51.894 --> 00:23:54.375
vote on fan participation

00:23:54.415 --> 00:23:55.656
and submissions to the show

00:23:55.737 --> 00:23:56.758
as it was being written.

00:23:57.337 --> 00:23:58.499
Like if you could just give

00:23:58.538 --> 00:23:59.799
some equity to the fans,

00:24:00.161 --> 00:24:01.221
that would have been a really,

00:24:01.301 --> 00:24:04.584
really complete project in terms of fans,

00:24:04.604 --> 00:24:05.184
crowdfunding,

00:24:05.244 --> 00:24:06.605
lifting up and having return

00:24:07.986 --> 00:24:09.448
in it and instead the SEC

00:24:09.508 --> 00:24:11.530
shuts it down and we get

00:24:11.631 --> 00:24:13.894
mother where maybe they're

00:24:13.913 --> 00:24:14.714
saying you can buy some

00:24:14.755 --> 00:24:15.556
merch with your mother

00:24:15.576 --> 00:24:18.259
token well yeah I think

00:24:18.299 --> 00:24:19.260
that is pretty lame and I

00:24:19.280 --> 00:24:20.241
agree with Vitalik I'm

00:24:20.282 --> 00:24:22.025
sorry for the rant but I was so sad

00:24:22.184 --> 00:24:22.625
I love it.

00:24:22.805 --> 00:24:23.746
It's perfect.

00:24:25.945 --> 00:24:26.266
Yeah.

00:24:26.326 --> 00:24:26.767
Well, and,

00:24:26.987 --> 00:24:28.207
and one of the things Vitalik

00:24:28.247 --> 00:24:31.647
says in the next post in the thread,

00:24:31.688 --> 00:24:33.249
which is why I put this in

00:24:33.269 --> 00:24:35.190
the Dow news report is one

00:24:35.230 --> 00:24:36.829
of Vitalik's ideas was like, at least,

00:24:36.950 --> 00:24:38.770
at least do a Dow, you know,

00:24:39.530 --> 00:24:40.070
like at least,

00:24:40.151 --> 00:24:41.051
at least give some kind of

00:24:41.132 --> 00:24:42.432
governance rights to these

00:24:42.491 --> 00:24:43.632
token holders so they can

00:24:43.692 --> 00:24:45.653
decide something together.

00:24:45.673 --> 00:24:46.573
And, and,

00:24:46.653 --> 00:24:47.834
and I love that because actually

00:24:47.874 --> 00:24:48.874
I think that's, it's,

00:24:48.973 --> 00:24:51.134
I think virtually any token,

00:24:52.625 --> 00:24:53.806
In my vision of the future,

00:24:53.905 --> 00:24:56.247
not even that far distant future,

00:24:56.846 --> 00:24:58.188
literally everything has a

00:24:58.228 --> 00:24:59.248
DAO associated with it.

00:24:59.268 --> 00:25:00.509
I don't know if we'll call it a DAO,

00:25:00.888 --> 00:25:03.710
but when you buy Oreo cookies,

00:25:03.789 --> 00:25:04.510
you're going to get some

00:25:04.590 --> 00:25:05.830
Oreo tokens with them.

00:25:06.571 --> 00:25:08.231
It's practically inevitable to me.

00:25:08.692 --> 00:25:09.613
And those tokens,

00:25:10.113 --> 00:25:12.453
maybe there's an NFT element,

00:25:12.493 --> 00:25:13.115
maybe there's art.

00:25:14.075 --> 00:25:15.596
Maybe there's a collectible element.

00:25:15.635 --> 00:25:17.057
Maybe there's rewards, a utility.

00:25:17.076 --> 00:25:19.759
You're also going to get to join the thing,

00:25:20.078 --> 00:25:20.660
whatever it is.

00:25:20.700 --> 00:25:21.480
And that's pretty much going

00:25:21.500 --> 00:25:22.101
to be the DAO.

00:25:22.401 --> 00:25:23.181
You join the DAO,

00:25:23.280 --> 00:25:24.682
and then there's going to be a chat room.

00:25:25.083 --> 00:25:26.644
There's going to be stuff you can vote on.

00:25:26.703 --> 00:25:27.463
Maybe you get to pick the

00:25:27.523 --> 00:25:30.445
next color for whatever Oreos.

00:25:31.047 --> 00:25:32.027
And I just think everything

00:25:32.086 --> 00:25:32.907
is going to work that way.

00:25:32.988 --> 00:25:35.930
Products, communities, geographies,

00:25:35.950 --> 00:25:36.789
everything.

00:25:37.810 --> 00:25:39.311
And I think the reason for that is like,

00:25:39.612 --> 00:25:40.492
it's not that hard,

00:25:40.553 --> 00:25:41.472
especially once you're

00:25:41.512 --> 00:25:42.653
already giving out a token,

00:25:42.673 --> 00:25:44.255
it's pretty much a DAO already.

00:25:44.555 --> 00:25:45.556
Like the question is just,

00:25:45.736 --> 00:25:47.676
are you the project creator

00:25:48.117 --> 00:25:50.179
going to create the chat room,

00:25:50.578 --> 00:25:51.759
the token gating,

00:25:51.940 --> 00:25:53.340
the governance mechanism,

00:25:53.901 --> 00:25:54.701
or is someone from the

00:25:54.741 --> 00:25:55.962
community gonna do it for you?

00:25:56.403 --> 00:25:57.505
And I think as a founder,

00:25:57.785 --> 00:25:59.728
that should make you seriously consider,

00:25:59.748 --> 00:26:00.730
okay, on one hand, yes,

00:26:01.109 --> 00:26:02.352
it's cool that in crypto we

00:26:02.393 --> 00:26:03.453
have the ability to have

00:26:03.473 --> 00:26:04.875
these like open ecosystems

00:26:04.895 --> 00:26:06.077
where anyone can do anything.

00:26:06.558 --> 00:26:07.760
So that's powerful.

00:26:07.820 --> 00:26:08.682
And you could argue that's

00:26:08.701 --> 00:26:09.923
what happened with like

00:26:10.003 --> 00:26:11.386
D-Gen on Farcaster.

00:26:11.987 --> 00:26:13.750
Because Farcaster didn't launch a token,

00:26:13.789 --> 00:26:14.691
the community did it,

00:26:14.810 --> 00:26:16.272
and it seems to have worked pretty well.

00:26:17.134 --> 00:26:18.817
But I would think if I was a

00:26:18.856 --> 00:26:21.339
Farcaster founder and for a year,

00:26:21.520 --> 00:26:22.903
everyone, including me, was like,

00:26:22.942 --> 00:26:24.183
when token, when token?

00:26:24.605 --> 00:26:26.126
And they were just like, what's the point?

00:26:26.146 --> 00:26:27.148
There's no need for a token.

00:26:27.749 --> 00:26:28.549
maybe they're regretting

00:26:28.589 --> 00:26:30.550
that now um either way I

00:26:30.590 --> 00:26:32.011
think clearly like this

00:26:32.551 --> 00:26:33.451
it's it's this little like

00:26:33.633 --> 00:26:34.732
add-on component you can

00:26:34.772 --> 00:26:36.453
put onto almost any token

00:26:36.574 --> 00:26:38.055
any project any product any

00:26:38.154 --> 00:26:40.476
ecosystem is like the doubt

00:26:40.656 --> 00:26:42.357
component and I think it's

00:26:42.577 --> 00:26:44.699
it's it's a miss I would

00:26:44.739 --> 00:26:45.980
agree it's a miss not to do

00:26:46.019 --> 00:26:47.299
that for any of these

00:26:47.339 --> 00:26:49.981
celebrity coins too yep

00:26:50.201 --> 00:26:51.542
yeah I think that's the uh

00:26:52.130 --> 00:26:54.951
The ultimate fan experience

00:26:55.891 --> 00:26:57.832
or community experience is participation.

00:26:58.372 --> 00:26:59.951
And that's just what a DAO is.

00:27:00.251 --> 00:27:02.192
And all it is is it's

00:27:02.232 --> 00:27:04.932
tokenized so that it's

00:27:05.233 --> 00:27:09.634
digital and it's on this

00:27:10.055 --> 00:27:11.154
open and composable thing.

00:27:11.375 --> 00:27:12.414
And I think that's really

00:27:12.434 --> 00:27:15.756
important because that open composable,

00:27:15.816 --> 00:27:17.916
like sure, I could create Oreo token

00:27:18.638 --> 00:27:21.461
and have Oreo app and that's

00:27:21.521 --> 00:27:22.583
really just points on my

00:27:22.624 --> 00:27:25.066
backend of my Oreo app.

00:27:26.007 --> 00:27:27.308
And we could vote on the

00:27:27.368 --> 00:27:30.852
next seasonal Oreo design

00:27:31.653 --> 00:27:32.815
or something along those lines.

00:27:32.954 --> 00:27:35.597
But what's cooler is when,

00:27:36.821 --> 00:27:39.064
uh if you think of the oreo

00:27:39.124 --> 00:27:40.625
is actually a part of a

00:27:40.705 --> 00:27:41.866
larger you know sort of

00:27:41.906 --> 00:27:44.269
food portfolio um a

00:27:44.348 --> 00:27:45.829
consumer goods portfolio

00:27:45.970 --> 00:27:47.050
and if I'm able to have

00:27:47.131 --> 00:27:48.592
tokens across multiple

00:27:48.652 --> 00:27:49.933
goods um and

00:27:49.993 --> 00:27:51.115
cross-pollinate them out

00:27:51.154 --> 00:27:53.477
there in in uh in various

00:27:53.817 --> 00:27:54.897
loyalty rewards

00:27:54.998 --> 00:27:57.039
participation programs uh

00:27:57.180 --> 00:27:58.681
or vampire attacking I

00:27:58.721 --> 00:27:59.741
realize they don't want to

00:27:59.801 --> 00:28:00.843
open themselves up to that

00:28:00.863 --> 00:28:02.044
but frankly that's the future

00:28:02.544 --> 00:28:03.724
And there's so many benefits

00:28:03.765 --> 00:28:05.046
to being open that it's

00:28:05.105 --> 00:28:06.207
worth also facing.

00:28:07.228 --> 00:28:08.828
And not to mention the drama

00:28:09.009 --> 00:28:10.431
and news that you can get

00:28:10.471 --> 00:28:12.672
from brand when vampire attacks occur.

00:28:12.813 --> 00:28:13.772
Uniswap is just fine,

00:28:14.114 --> 00:28:15.515
even though SushiSwap went at it.

00:28:16.315 --> 00:28:18.656
And so I think as brands wake up to this,

00:28:18.896 --> 00:28:20.358
yeah, it's all going to be tokens.

00:28:20.419 --> 00:28:21.278
It's all going to be DAOs

00:28:21.318 --> 00:28:22.180
and it's the most intimate

00:28:22.220 --> 00:28:23.421
experience ever for people.

00:28:24.321 --> 00:28:24.481
Yep.

00:28:24.846 --> 00:28:25.007
Yep.

00:28:25.186 --> 00:28:25.468
By the way,

00:28:25.528 --> 00:28:28.089
I think mother is Iggy Azalea

00:28:28.250 --> 00:28:29.590
based on a little bit of

00:28:29.971 --> 00:28:31.373
searching through X. And

00:28:33.193 --> 00:28:34.015
I'd be surprised if she

00:28:34.055 --> 00:28:34.796
doesn't get in trouble

00:28:34.816 --> 00:28:35.676
because there's posts of

00:28:35.717 --> 00:28:38.598
her just like with the hashtag mother.

00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:41.101
And then it's just like a video of her.

00:28:41.141 --> 00:28:41.602
And it's like,

00:28:42.061 --> 00:28:43.042
isn't that don't you have to

00:28:43.343 --> 00:28:44.483
have some disclaimers or

00:28:44.523 --> 00:28:45.464
something when you do

00:28:45.505 --> 00:28:46.286
something like that?

00:28:47.287 --> 00:28:48.988
So I imagine it'll just take time.

00:28:50.028 --> 00:28:51.730
Yeah, yeah, yeah, probably.

00:28:53.632 --> 00:28:53.752
Now,

00:28:53.792 --> 00:28:54.933
I do think there isn't this

00:28:55.074 --> 00:28:57.395
interesting like trend in

00:28:57.435 --> 00:28:58.457
crypto that I think these

00:28:58.696 --> 00:28:59.798
celeb coins are part of,

00:28:59.877 --> 00:29:02.579
which is this idea that, you know,

00:29:02.601 --> 00:29:04.863
a true meme coin might be

00:29:04.903 --> 00:29:07.785
the safest way to avoid the SEC.

00:29:08.952 --> 00:29:09.932
calling your thing a

00:29:09.952 --> 00:29:11.753
security because the more

00:29:11.854 --> 00:29:13.355
you literally say,

00:29:13.994 --> 00:29:15.655
there is no reason to give,

00:29:16.016 --> 00:29:17.116
this thing has no value.

00:29:17.277 --> 00:29:18.017
Do not buy it.

00:29:18.237 --> 00:29:18.916
No value.

00:29:19.057 --> 00:29:20.178
There's no benefits.

00:29:20.837 --> 00:29:21.838
There's no community.

00:29:21.878 --> 00:29:22.679
There's no doubt.

00:29:22.699 --> 00:29:23.519
There's no nothing.

00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:24.380
Don't buy it.

00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:25.319
Now,

00:29:25.420 --> 00:29:27.742
maybe you're actually safer in terms

00:29:27.782 --> 00:29:29.023
of the SEC because you're

00:29:29.044 --> 00:29:30.905
not telling people to make an investment.

00:29:30.945 --> 00:29:31.646
You're not giving them a

00:29:31.707 --> 00:29:32.548
reason it'll go up.

00:29:33.107 --> 00:29:35.651
You're not doing anything

00:29:35.671 --> 00:29:37.313
that people can rely on for

00:29:37.333 --> 00:29:38.394
the success of the investment.

00:29:38.433 --> 00:29:39.255
You're telling them you're

00:29:39.275 --> 00:29:40.115
not doing anything.

00:29:40.935 --> 00:29:43.699
So I think it is still kind

00:29:43.739 --> 00:29:44.680
of interesting that maybe

00:29:44.700 --> 00:29:46.021
it's an area for...

00:29:47.461 --> 00:29:48.280
experimentation,

00:29:48.622 --> 00:29:49.721
extra experimentation in

00:29:49.741 --> 00:29:51.083
crypto just because it's

00:29:51.863 --> 00:29:52.762
the farthest thing from

00:29:52.803 --> 00:29:54.604
what the SEC might want to go after.

00:29:55.223 --> 00:29:56.345
So maybe there's a good

00:29:56.404 --> 00:29:57.565
reason why we have lots of

00:29:57.684 --> 00:29:58.925
meme coins today.

00:30:00.778 --> 00:30:04.480
I really like that exercise,

00:30:04.660 --> 00:30:06.421
and I think that you're

00:30:06.461 --> 00:30:07.280
onto something there.

00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:11.021
And in many ways, that's really,

00:30:11.082 --> 00:30:12.201
really sad too,

00:30:12.461 --> 00:30:13.162
because then the

00:30:13.281 --> 00:30:14.663
introduction is exactly

00:30:14.702 --> 00:30:16.583
what Vitalik was sort of lamenting.

00:30:16.803 --> 00:30:18.022
The very first experience

00:30:18.063 --> 00:30:19.663
for some of these new

00:30:19.723 --> 00:30:21.703
retail consumer

00:30:21.743 --> 00:30:23.565
participants is going to be

00:30:23.664 --> 00:30:24.964
getting rugged in a meme

00:30:24.984 --> 00:30:26.986
token game and also having

00:30:27.026 --> 00:30:28.125
the experience afterwards

00:30:28.945 --> 00:30:30.747
that's a really lame game to play.

00:30:30.907 --> 00:30:32.169
I didn't enjoy that game.

00:30:32.848 --> 00:30:34.650
We can play so much richer

00:30:34.710 --> 00:30:35.891
games with one another

00:30:37.031 --> 00:30:39.354
using these technologies.

00:30:40.654 --> 00:30:43.936
But yeah, I think that in many ways,

00:30:43.957 --> 00:30:44.758
tinfoil hat on,

00:30:47.140 --> 00:30:49.060
uh maybe that's exactly uh

00:30:49.280 --> 00:30:51.362
what a repressive uh regime

00:30:51.521 --> 00:30:52.721
that's wanting to shut down

00:30:52.801 --> 00:30:54.363
or cool or chill crypto

00:30:54.423 --> 00:30:55.923
wants they want nothing but

00:30:55.942 --> 00:30:57.083
trash to be able to point

00:30:57.103 --> 00:30:58.943
that look at this garbage

00:30:59.403 --> 00:31:00.464
and the safest thing for

00:31:00.484 --> 00:31:01.444
you to do from a legal

00:31:01.464 --> 00:31:02.565
standpoint is to do the

00:31:02.605 --> 00:31:04.006
garbage thing like that

00:31:04.306 --> 00:31:06.366
that's really sad it is

00:31:06.767 --> 00:31:08.426
yeah like just gamble don't

00:31:08.446 --> 00:31:09.367
don't do any of the real

00:31:09.428 --> 00:31:10.488
value generating stuff

00:31:11.529 --> 00:31:11.710
Yeah.

00:31:12.250 --> 00:31:13.354
And then you can say that

00:31:13.413 --> 00:31:14.154
it's nothing but a

00:31:14.214 --> 00:31:15.237
degenerate gambling

00:31:15.297 --> 00:31:16.138
environment that hurts

00:31:16.219 --> 00:31:17.442
retail that may be coming

00:31:17.501 --> 00:31:18.403
in slightly naive.

00:31:18.663 --> 00:31:19.045
Excellent.

00:31:19.465 --> 00:31:20.567
All the talking points are there.

00:31:21.516 --> 00:31:23.076
Yeah, damn, good point.

00:31:24.278 --> 00:31:24.557
All right,

00:31:24.597 --> 00:31:25.598
so it's still important to be

00:31:25.618 --> 00:31:26.400
building real things.

00:31:26.660 --> 00:31:29.642
Everybody take note, not just meme coins.

00:31:30.482 --> 00:31:30.782
All right,

00:31:30.803 --> 00:31:32.003
so the next article of the week.

00:31:32.584 --> 00:31:35.767
This one is from theconversation.com,

00:31:35.787 --> 00:31:37.047
which is not a crypto.

00:31:38.949 --> 00:31:40.950
It's like a deep,

00:31:41.130 --> 00:31:42.852
looks like philosophical journal.

00:31:44.032 --> 00:31:44.932
And the headline is,

00:31:45.534 --> 00:31:47.295
why the future of democracy

00:31:47.394 --> 00:31:49.416
could depend on your group chats.

00:31:50.096 --> 00:31:51.460
Is your social media group a

00:31:51.519 --> 00:31:53.742
budding democracy or someone's fiefdom?

00:31:54.944 --> 00:31:56.106
All right.

00:31:56.188 --> 00:31:57.930
So this is an article by the

00:31:58.090 --> 00:31:59.773
author of a book called

00:31:59.894 --> 00:32:01.256
Governable Spaces.

00:32:02.164 --> 00:32:04.145
which I highly recommend people check out.

00:32:04.185 --> 00:32:05.826
I read about the first half and I was like,

00:32:05.926 --> 00:32:07.067
all right, I get it, it's enough.

00:32:07.167 --> 00:32:08.808
But definitely a good book.

00:32:08.888 --> 00:32:10.970
The author's name is Nathan Schneider.

00:32:11.609 --> 00:32:13.131
And the article and the book

00:32:13.510 --> 00:32:16.012
are about this idea that

00:32:16.553 --> 00:32:18.153
what made democracy so

00:32:18.193 --> 00:32:20.775
successful in America so far,

00:32:21.055 --> 00:32:22.816
especially the first couple hundred years,

00:32:23.636 --> 00:32:25.198
as observed actually by

00:32:25.218 --> 00:32:27.479
Alexis de Tocqueville when

00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:28.799
he toured the United States

00:32:28.859 --> 00:32:29.359
in the early 1830s,

00:32:31.060 --> 00:32:32.842
was that all over America we

00:32:32.882 --> 00:32:34.824
have democracy, little democracies.

00:32:35.644 --> 00:32:36.845
Every organization we're

00:32:36.904 --> 00:32:39.146
part of tends to evolve or

00:32:39.207 --> 00:32:40.528
devolve or whatever,

00:32:40.887 --> 00:32:42.890
turn into a democracy of some kind.

00:32:43.863 --> 00:32:45.584
every club in every high school,

00:32:45.884 --> 00:32:48.565
every club that families are part of.

00:32:49.805 --> 00:32:50.684
What are the examples that

00:32:50.724 --> 00:32:51.605
Tocqueville gives?

00:32:53.266 --> 00:32:54.926
It doesn't say in the article,

00:32:54.987 --> 00:32:55.686
and I don't recall,

00:32:55.727 --> 00:32:57.367
but he says that he sees

00:32:57.928 --> 00:32:59.008
all over the place, oh,

00:32:59.107 --> 00:33:00.409
organizations like garden

00:33:00.449 --> 00:33:02.769
clubs in communities are

00:33:02.809 --> 00:33:03.950
like little schools for

00:33:03.990 --> 00:33:05.570
practicing the general

00:33:05.651 --> 00:33:06.851
theory of association.

00:33:07.371 --> 00:33:09.172
As members of small democracies,

00:33:09.352 --> 00:33:10.592
people were learning to be

00:33:10.692 --> 00:33:12.232
citizens of a democratic country.

00:33:13.185 --> 00:33:14.346
And interestingly,

00:33:14.405 --> 00:33:15.666
if you look at our online

00:33:15.707 --> 00:33:19.827
spaces today before crypto, at least,

00:33:20.248 --> 00:33:21.887
they don't tend to operate that way.

00:33:22.407 --> 00:33:23.989
Look at Reddit communities,

00:33:24.288 --> 00:33:26.869
look at literally every blog,

00:33:27.009 --> 00:33:29.230
every comment section of every website.

00:33:29.670 --> 00:33:31.490
Either a big company is in

00:33:31.550 --> 00:33:32.891
charge and gets to decide

00:33:33.030 --> 00:33:34.151
what you can say and can't

00:33:34.211 --> 00:33:36.172
say and how you use the space.

00:33:36.991 --> 00:33:39.335
Or a moderator is in charge.

00:33:39.755 --> 00:33:40.836
And I guess maybe sometimes

00:33:41.057 --> 00:33:42.317
there's two or three moderators.

00:33:42.538 --> 00:33:42.959
For example,

00:33:42.979 --> 00:33:44.200
I haven't been huge into Reddit,

00:33:44.580 --> 00:33:46.122
although I certainly look at it a lot.

00:33:47.743 --> 00:33:50.406
But the idea is maybe what

00:33:50.446 --> 00:33:51.708
we need is moderators.

00:33:52.409 --> 00:33:53.930
to turn these online spaces

00:33:54.089 --> 00:33:55.369
into things that are more

00:33:55.390 --> 00:33:57.330
like little democracies so

00:33:57.391 --> 00:33:58.951
that people can once again

00:33:59.491 --> 00:34:01.113
practice and experience

00:34:01.173 --> 00:34:03.354
democracy in our entire life.

00:34:03.653 --> 00:34:05.295
From the time we start using

00:34:05.615 --> 00:34:08.115
cell phones as, I don't know,

00:34:08.115 --> 00:34:09.356
13 year olds plus or minus,

00:34:10.597 --> 00:34:12.097
we need to be experiencing

00:34:12.657 --> 00:34:14.298
democracy so that we get

00:34:14.579 --> 00:34:16.699
how it works and we see how

00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:17.880
it connects from even the

00:34:17.940 --> 00:34:19.561
smallest organization in a

00:34:19.601 --> 00:34:21.141
country all the way up to

00:34:21.262 --> 00:34:22.242
our national and

00:34:22.302 --> 00:34:23.442
international government.

00:34:23.561 --> 00:34:26.043
So this book, actually, having read it,

00:34:26.063 --> 00:34:27.804
I wish he talked more about

00:34:27.864 --> 00:34:30.264
DAOs because to me it was like, oh, wow,

00:34:30.304 --> 00:34:32.106
he's describing exactly

00:34:32.206 --> 00:34:33.226
what we're doing and

00:34:33.266 --> 00:34:35.027
building in the DAO space.

00:34:35.726 --> 00:34:37.088
He talks a little bit about them.

00:34:37.668 --> 00:34:39.188
but certainly I think

00:34:39.509 --> 00:34:42.650
aligned in values that we

00:34:42.731 --> 00:34:44.432
need to make our technology

00:34:44.512 --> 00:34:45.934
in general and the spaces

00:34:45.974 --> 00:34:47.574
that we spend time in more

00:34:47.635 --> 00:34:49.976
democratic and less authoritarian.

00:34:51.617 --> 00:34:51.898
Wow.

00:34:52.297 --> 00:34:53.139
I hadn't read this book.

00:34:53.219 --> 00:34:55.780
It's been coming up a lot in conversations,

00:34:56.840 --> 00:34:57.862
you know, over on Farcaster.

00:34:57.902 --> 00:34:58.943
And so when I start to hear

00:34:58.963 --> 00:34:59.943
something multiple times,

00:35:00.362 --> 00:35:01.764
I know I have to go and pay

00:35:01.804 --> 00:35:02.644
more attention to it.

00:35:03.284 --> 00:35:03.646
Thank you.

00:35:03.666 --> 00:35:06.547
In terms of,

00:35:07.487 --> 00:35:09.449
what this is sensing into.

00:35:09.648 --> 00:35:09.989
It's funny,

00:35:10.028 --> 00:35:11.230
I was listening to this and

00:35:11.269 --> 00:35:11.969
thinking of my own

00:35:12.010 --> 00:35:13.951
experiences growing up and

00:35:13.971 --> 00:35:15.811
I too was participating in

00:35:15.871 --> 00:35:17.052
not-for-profits and clubs

00:35:17.092 --> 00:35:18.311
and I was often on the

00:35:18.351 --> 00:35:20.413
participant member side and

00:35:20.492 --> 00:35:21.733
inevitably often was

00:35:21.813 --> 00:35:23.054
curious and attracted to

00:35:23.153 --> 00:35:25.574
volunteering for positions in the board.

00:35:26.014 --> 00:35:26.916
Often as a member

00:35:26.956 --> 00:35:28.335
representative of an

00:35:28.376 --> 00:35:29.416
orchestra I played in or

00:35:29.436 --> 00:35:31.456
helping as part of coaches

00:35:31.476 --> 00:35:32.557
association or something

00:35:32.577 --> 00:35:33.257
along those lines.

00:35:33.952 --> 00:35:35.052
in a sport that I was playing.

00:35:35.233 --> 00:35:37.275
And what this immediately

00:35:37.795 --> 00:35:39.376
did in my sort of early

00:35:39.416 --> 00:35:41.496
youth was it brought me to

00:35:41.577 --> 00:35:43.199
Robert's rules of a meeting

00:35:43.478 --> 00:35:44.679
and how you are

00:35:44.760 --> 00:35:47.001
democratically approving

00:35:47.342 --> 00:35:49.222
what we are doing as a board.

00:35:50.164 --> 00:35:51.724
and how we run a meeting.

00:35:51.744 --> 00:35:53.186
I mean, obviously there's some weird,

00:35:53.327 --> 00:35:53.547
you know,

00:35:53.567 --> 00:35:54.567
dysfunctions to these old

00:35:54.626 --> 00:35:56.409
antiquated ways of doing things,

00:35:56.789 --> 00:35:57.989
but it was exposure to

00:35:58.030 --> 00:35:59.010
democracy like you're

00:35:59.030 --> 00:36:01.472
describing and you're so

00:36:01.592 --> 00:36:05.554
right in sort of the way

00:36:05.635 --> 00:36:07.597
that we have experienced

00:36:08.157 --> 00:36:10.458
our digital lives with, you know,

00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:12.539
more authoritarian setups.

00:36:13.260 --> 00:36:15.362
And I believe if you have

00:36:15.422 --> 00:36:17.443
that sort of memetic and memetic desires,

00:36:18.545 --> 00:36:20.347
then that becomes comfortable,

00:36:20.367 --> 00:36:21.447
that becomes known.

00:36:22.168 --> 00:36:23.068
And, you know,

00:36:23.309 --> 00:36:24.271
you also start to have these

00:36:24.311 --> 00:36:26.733
desires to be the mod, not, you know,

00:36:26.833 --> 00:36:27.934
be somebody who's being a

00:36:28.094 --> 00:36:29.496
steward for the community

00:36:29.596 --> 00:36:30.697
and collecting the voice of

00:36:30.717 --> 00:36:31.697
the community and trying to

00:36:31.737 --> 00:36:33.519
vote on behalf of the community.

00:36:33.579 --> 00:36:36.063
And so there are some interesting sort of

00:36:36.543 --> 00:36:37.402
things that are likely

00:36:37.443 --> 00:36:38.782
happening behaviorally just

00:36:38.882 --> 00:36:40.204
by not being exposed.

00:36:40.704 --> 00:36:41.943
And so, yeah,

00:36:42.603 --> 00:36:43.724
I never really thought of

00:36:43.784 --> 00:36:45.105
DAOs from that perspective.

00:36:45.164 --> 00:36:45.784
And like when we were

00:36:45.804 --> 00:36:47.565
talking about Oreo points

00:36:47.985 --> 00:36:50.684
and tokens and voting on Oreo stuff,

00:36:50.784 --> 00:36:52.585
like it just,

00:36:53.126 --> 00:36:54.686
it's giving us that practice.

00:36:54.746 --> 00:36:56.565
It's helping us muscle and

00:36:56.626 --> 00:36:58.407
it's creating a desire and

00:36:58.447 --> 00:37:01.007
a default that perhaps is a

00:37:01.067 --> 00:37:02.246
really valuable one to have

00:37:02.306 --> 00:37:03.807
that is being eroded.

00:37:03.867 --> 00:37:04.648
And I had never really

00:37:04.668 --> 00:37:05.628
thought about it from that angle.

00:37:06.789 --> 00:37:07.949
Yeah, it's super interesting.

00:37:08.010 --> 00:37:08.309
I mean,

00:37:08.329 --> 00:37:12.331
I always took part in student councils,

00:37:12.692 --> 00:37:13.972
at least as long as I had

00:37:13.992 --> 00:37:14.972
them from middle school,

00:37:14.992 --> 00:37:17.114
high school and college.

00:37:17.914 --> 00:37:19.894
And I know it's not

00:37:19.914 --> 00:37:21.275
something everyone's into,

00:37:21.356 --> 00:37:22.476
but I wonder how many

00:37:22.536 --> 00:37:24.476
people involved in the DAO

00:37:24.536 --> 00:37:26.518
industry may have a history

00:37:26.797 --> 00:37:29.639
of student councils, nonprofit boards,

00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:31.601
other forms of like

00:37:32.541 --> 00:37:34.061
I don't want to call nonprofits practice,

00:37:34.101 --> 00:37:35.242
but maybe all the school

00:37:35.262 --> 00:37:36.762
stuff is practice and real.

00:37:37.483 --> 00:37:40.005
And, you know,

00:37:40.425 --> 00:37:42.666
it's it's it's interesting

00:37:42.686 --> 00:37:43.606
to see how much overlap

00:37:43.626 --> 00:37:44.907
there is between people

00:37:44.947 --> 00:37:45.947
working in this space and

00:37:45.987 --> 00:37:47.048
people who have

00:37:47.168 --> 00:37:48.809
participated in governance

00:37:48.849 --> 00:37:49.630
throughout their lives.

00:37:50.791 --> 00:37:50.990
Yeah.

00:37:51.291 --> 00:37:52.472
And maybe it was in video

00:37:52.512 --> 00:37:54.833
games in terms of guild governance.

00:37:54.913 --> 00:37:55.193
Yeah.

00:37:55.213 --> 00:37:56.293
In a World of Warcraft guild.

00:37:56.744 --> 00:38:00.068
Maybe it was, you know, like myself,

00:38:00.829 --> 00:38:03.192
a model UN debate club fan

00:38:03.271 --> 00:38:04.773
or something along those lines.

00:38:05.173 --> 00:38:06.295
Yeah, good point.

00:38:06.596 --> 00:38:07.597
Oh, that makes me wonder, too,

00:38:07.657 --> 00:38:10.679
like if my whatever video games I play,

00:38:10.820 --> 00:38:13.202
if the clans I'm in were

00:38:13.262 --> 00:38:15.005
forced to be more democratic.

00:38:15.726 --> 00:38:16.525
Would that actually,

00:38:16.746 --> 00:38:17.847
would people like that or

00:38:17.867 --> 00:38:19.728
would that just turn them off and say,

00:38:19.768 --> 00:38:20.268
would they say,

00:38:20.327 --> 00:38:21.409
I don't want to have to vote?

00:38:21.989 --> 00:38:22.409
I don't know.

00:38:22.429 --> 00:38:24.411
I could see it going both ways,

00:38:24.951 --> 00:38:27.572
maybe depending on the scenario.

00:38:27.592 --> 00:38:29.293
I mean, certainly when things go wrong,

00:38:29.353 --> 00:38:30.054
that's when you want,

00:38:30.134 --> 00:38:31.914
you wish there was a democracy, right?

00:38:32.275 --> 00:38:33.615
Like when the Klan leader

00:38:33.675 --> 00:38:36.516
goes crazy or disappears or, you know,

00:38:36.536 --> 00:38:38.498
make some decision everyone hates.

00:38:38.518 --> 00:38:39.719
Yeah.

00:38:40.648 --> 00:38:40.789
Yeah,

00:38:41.009 --> 00:38:43.710
or when the video game developer

00:38:43.731 --> 00:38:45.972
themselves ends up nerfing

00:38:46.632 --> 00:38:47.574
something on you,

00:38:48.195 --> 00:38:49.175
which I believe is why

00:38:49.195 --> 00:38:50.737
Vitalik was drawn towards

00:38:51.177 --> 00:38:52.657
creating Ethereum in the first place.

00:38:52.717 --> 00:38:54.318
And so, yeah,

00:38:54.719 --> 00:38:56.221
I think these are the types

00:38:56.240 --> 00:38:57.501
of things where, honestly,

00:38:58.141 --> 00:39:00.063
simplistic games like meme

00:39:00.123 --> 00:39:01.925
tokens or more

00:39:01.965 --> 00:39:03.126
authoritative models and

00:39:03.166 --> 00:39:04.967
participating them in the form of play,

00:39:05.367 --> 00:39:05.628
great.

00:39:06.628 --> 00:39:07.668
finite games can be a lot of

00:39:07.708 --> 00:39:10.652
fun and they're sort of

00:39:11.012 --> 00:39:13.074
good exercise for the mind and, you know,

00:39:13.114 --> 00:39:13.873
experiences.

00:39:13.994 --> 00:39:15.876
But when the stakes start to

00:39:15.916 --> 00:39:16.817
get higher with something

00:39:16.856 --> 00:39:20.300
really matters to you and

00:39:20.380 --> 00:39:22.862
losing it all in an authoritative regime,

00:39:23.322 --> 00:39:23.842
if you've had that

00:39:23.882 --> 00:39:24.963
experience once in your life,

00:39:25.023 --> 00:39:26.264
even if it was as silly as

00:39:26.324 --> 00:39:27.846
a character that you

00:39:27.885 --> 00:39:30.447
invested in in a video game

00:39:30.847 --> 00:39:31.849
and it brought you to tears

00:39:31.909 --> 00:39:32.650
when it was nerfed,

00:39:34.132 --> 00:39:36.577
like you start to have empathy for, hey,

00:39:36.637 --> 00:39:37.559
when something starts to

00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:39.284
matter to me and to others,

00:39:39.864 --> 00:39:42.010
perhaps this model is not the best model.

00:39:43.393 --> 00:39:43.632
Yeah.

00:39:43.932 --> 00:39:44.373
Interesting.

00:39:44.994 --> 00:39:45.293
All right.

00:39:45.474 --> 00:39:46.414
We're going to fast forward

00:39:46.454 --> 00:39:48.356
to the last article of the week.

00:39:48.376 --> 00:39:49.396
And there may be a couple in

00:39:49.416 --> 00:39:50.737
the show notes that we don't cover.

00:39:50.797 --> 00:39:52.478
And then we'll turn to the interview.

00:39:52.498 --> 00:39:56.681
The last post of the week

00:39:56.880 --> 00:39:58.561
actually is from the Dow's

00:39:58.621 --> 00:40:00.222
channel on Farcaster,

00:40:00.362 --> 00:40:01.483
where B-Pizza and I both

00:40:01.523 --> 00:40:03.204
like to spend some time.

00:40:03.224 --> 00:40:06.467
And the post is from Coulter.

00:40:07.722 --> 00:40:09.485
And it's actually a post of

00:40:09.525 --> 00:40:10.907
their blog post.

00:40:11.487 --> 00:40:12.188
The headline is,

00:40:12.768 --> 00:40:14.190
is incorporating a doubt

00:40:14.391 --> 00:40:16.052
contradicting its purpose?

00:40:17.594 --> 00:40:18.876
And the headline of the article,

00:40:18.916 --> 00:40:20.938
which is on UDHC.com,

00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:23.621
is there is no doubt.

00:40:24.780 --> 00:40:25.061
Okay,

00:40:25.561 --> 00:40:28.302
so this article starts by digging

00:40:28.402 --> 00:40:30.483
into the nuance of the

00:40:30.543 --> 00:40:33.905
terminology of the word, the phrase DAO,

00:40:34.666 --> 00:40:35.545
and that there's a lot of

00:40:35.606 --> 00:40:37.527
disagreement over what the terms mean.

00:40:37.666 --> 00:40:39.467
Now, interestingly to me, actually,

00:40:39.507 --> 00:40:40.887
this article focuses on the

00:40:40.927 --> 00:40:41.809
word autonomous.

00:40:42.409 --> 00:40:44.311
as being where the confusion comes from.

00:40:44.632 --> 00:40:45.793
But I think there's just as

00:40:45.853 --> 00:40:47.795
much confusion from each of the words,

00:40:47.954 --> 00:40:49.757
decentralized and autonomous.

00:40:50.958 --> 00:40:52.039
This author points out,

00:40:52.940 --> 00:40:53.802
is it about the

00:40:53.882 --> 00:40:56.864
organization being autonomous of any

00:40:58.112 --> 00:41:01.295
of other entity or individual, for example,

00:41:01.755 --> 00:41:02.858
or is it about running

00:41:03.137 --> 00:41:04.079
autonomously on the

00:41:04.119 --> 00:41:05.219
blockchain such that when

00:41:05.260 --> 00:41:06.141
decisions are made,

00:41:06.201 --> 00:41:07.862
they are implemented autonomously?

00:41:08.483 --> 00:41:09.465
And I think actually the

00:41:09.485 --> 00:41:10.686
same debate happens over

00:41:10.726 --> 00:41:11.927
the term decentralized.

00:41:12.409 --> 00:41:14.530
Does it apply to the people

00:41:14.670 --> 00:41:15.791
involved in the

00:41:15.853 --> 00:41:17.775
organization and is the way they

00:41:18.215 --> 00:41:19.717
govern themselves or the way

00:41:19.737 --> 00:41:20.898
they operate socially and

00:41:20.938 --> 00:41:22.440
politically decentralized

00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:24.121
or does it refer to the

00:41:24.161 --> 00:41:25.324
technology that the dow

00:41:25.384 --> 00:41:26.545
runs on being on

00:41:26.605 --> 00:41:27.987
decentralized technology

00:41:28.067 --> 00:41:29.007
and maybe it doesn't matter

00:41:29.068 --> 00:41:30.168
if you want to have a

00:41:30.208 --> 00:41:31.431
centralized team you're

00:41:31.451 --> 00:41:33.092
still running on decentralized technology

00:41:33.512 --> 00:41:34.813
So both terms in

00:41:36.496 --> 00:41:38.737
decentralized autonomous organization.

00:41:39.079 --> 00:41:39.559
But actually,

00:41:39.579 --> 00:41:41.059
I think what the rest of the

00:41:41.081 --> 00:41:42.141
article goes on to talk

00:41:42.202 --> 00:41:43.463
about is some confusion

00:41:43.782 --> 00:41:44.963
without naming it around

00:41:44.983 --> 00:41:46.105
the term organization.

00:41:47.045 --> 00:41:48.588
This article goes on to say,

00:41:48.608 --> 00:41:51.309
do DAOs really exist?

00:41:51.590 --> 00:41:52.130
Because...

00:41:53.333 --> 00:41:54.414
According to the author,

00:41:55.054 --> 00:41:56.914
the nature of DAOs is that they're fluid.

00:41:56.974 --> 00:41:58.135
People come and go.

00:42:00.315 --> 00:42:02.757
They don't rely on any one person.

00:42:03.617 --> 00:42:09.659
And as a result, and even if you try to,

00:42:10.418 --> 00:42:11.599
let's say for a second,

00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:13.900
you assume the word

00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:16.679
organization means something,

00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:17.840
like one thing.

00:42:18.420 --> 00:42:19.800
Does that being one thing

00:42:20.021 --> 00:42:21.621
actually make you not decentralized?

00:42:22.222 --> 00:42:23.074
and not autonomous.

00:42:23.951 --> 00:42:25.931
And this is a part I want to try to,

00:42:25.952 --> 00:42:27.793
I guess this is pretty philosophical,

00:42:27.833 --> 00:42:28.753
but I want to take issue

00:42:28.813 --> 00:42:30.315
with this last point

00:42:30.355 --> 00:42:32.597
because this does come up, I think,

00:42:32.657 --> 00:42:35.038
a lot in conversations I

00:42:35.077 --> 00:42:36.338
have with people about DAOs

00:42:36.860 --> 00:42:37.960
because it goes from, okay,

00:42:38.661 --> 00:42:39.842
is being one thing,

00:42:40.302 --> 00:42:41.302
does that already make us

00:42:41.422 --> 00:42:42.643
not really a DAO?

00:42:43.503 --> 00:42:46.746
And therefore does incorporating, right,

00:42:46.846 --> 00:42:48.266
by forming a legal entity,

00:42:48.327 --> 00:42:49.987
does that make us not really a DAO?

00:42:50.409 --> 00:42:51.309
Because now we're

00:42:51.409 --> 00:42:52.989
acknowledging that we are one thing.

00:42:54.271 --> 00:42:55.532
And one thing, you know,

00:42:55.572 --> 00:42:56.894
necessarily when you draw a

00:42:57.114 --> 00:42:58.297
thing on a piece of paper,

00:42:58.737 --> 00:42:59.679
it's going to be maybe it's

00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:00.639
in the center or it's going

00:43:00.659 --> 00:43:01.360
to look like it's in the

00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:02.282
center because it's the one

00:43:02.322 --> 00:43:03.503
thing on the page.

00:43:03.943 --> 00:43:05.626
And so that scares people away from,

00:43:05.947 --> 00:43:07.449
you know, hey, well, if there's a center,

00:43:07.509 --> 00:43:08.570
is it not decentralized?

00:43:09.050 --> 00:43:09.952
You know, I think to me.

00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:12.938
there is something

00:43:13.018 --> 00:43:14.599
necessarily centralizing

00:43:14.780 --> 00:43:16.521
about an organization, right?

00:43:16.561 --> 00:43:18.181
The word organization means

00:43:18.842 --> 00:43:20.943
there is something cohesive,

00:43:21.422 --> 00:43:22.623
something consistent,

00:43:23.083 --> 00:43:25.525
something collective about

00:43:25.684 --> 00:43:27.246
whatever it is that you're talking about.

00:43:27.985 --> 00:43:29.746
And maybe that's the mission.

00:43:30.606 --> 00:43:32.047
Maybe it's the budget.

00:43:32.903 --> 00:43:34.804
Maybe it's the vision.

00:43:35.105 --> 00:43:37.485
It's the product, right?

00:43:37.605 --> 00:43:39.045
Every organization is different.

00:43:39.106 --> 00:43:40.545
But I think usually by the

00:43:40.585 --> 00:43:41.206
time you're calling

00:43:41.226 --> 00:43:42.347
yourself an organization,

00:43:42.686 --> 00:43:43.987
the reason is that you are

00:43:44.086 --> 00:43:45.987
trying to coalesce around something.

00:43:47.027 --> 00:43:48.889
And you can do that in a

00:43:48.949 --> 00:43:50.429
very decentralized way or

00:43:50.509 --> 00:43:51.630
not a decentralized way.

00:43:51.650 --> 00:43:52.510
You can do it in a more

00:43:52.550 --> 00:43:54.170
autonomous or not autonomous way.

00:43:55.751 --> 00:43:57.231
But I don't think that just

00:43:57.291 --> 00:43:59.233
by virtue of being a thing,

00:43:59.753 --> 00:44:01.175
that necessarily makes you

00:44:01.635 --> 00:44:03.097
not decentralized,

00:44:04.117 --> 00:44:07.721
or certainly that you can't exist at all.

00:44:08.722 --> 00:44:10.043
Any thoughts on this one, BP?

00:44:11.503 --> 00:44:13.585
Yeah, I feel like

00:44:14.650 --> 00:44:16.791
sometimes when it comes to

00:44:17.172 --> 00:44:20.851
the term DAO and dissecting decentralized,

00:44:20.932 --> 00:44:24.773
autonomous and organization, honestly,

00:44:24.793 --> 00:44:26.134
it starts to feel a little

00:44:26.153 --> 00:44:27.914
bit like a religion and

00:44:27.994 --> 00:44:29.173
fundamentalism for me

00:44:29.233 --> 00:44:31.514
sometimes where it's sort of like, oh,

00:44:31.755 --> 00:44:32.074
you know,

00:44:32.155 --> 00:44:33.956
you're not truly a DAO or you're

00:44:33.976 --> 00:44:35.675
not truly decentralized or

00:44:35.715 --> 00:44:37.235
you're not truly autonomous

00:44:37.275 --> 00:44:38.376
if you don't have autonomy

00:44:38.456 --> 00:44:40.976
from X. And I feel as

00:44:41.036 --> 00:44:43.838
though this kind of reminds me of the

00:44:44.903 --> 00:44:46.164
another movement in the way

00:44:46.184 --> 00:44:47.144
in which people worked,

00:44:47.224 --> 00:44:49.507
which was the agile movement.

00:44:50.027 --> 00:44:50.487
And so they had this

00:44:50.527 --> 00:44:53.048
manifesto and the manifesto

00:44:53.088 --> 00:44:53.969
was beautiful because it

00:44:54.010 --> 00:44:54.809
was basically saying,

00:44:54.849 --> 00:44:56.690
we want more of this and

00:44:56.751 --> 00:44:57.931
less of that and more of

00:44:57.992 --> 00:44:58.913
this and less than that.

00:44:59.612 --> 00:45:02.454
And that will be a more

00:45:02.775 --> 00:45:04.036
wonderful way and

00:45:04.076 --> 00:45:05.597
productive way to code software.

00:45:06.217 --> 00:45:08.878
And so when you come along to DAOs,

00:45:08.918 --> 00:45:09.498
I feel as though

00:45:10.382 --> 00:45:12.003
It's instructive and helpful

00:45:12.083 --> 00:45:13.425
to think we favor

00:45:13.525 --> 00:45:15.307
decentralization as much as

00:45:15.367 --> 00:45:17.269
possible over centralization.

00:45:17.610 --> 00:45:20.293
We favor enhancing autonomy,

00:45:20.434 --> 00:45:21.094
autonomy of the

00:45:21.454 --> 00:45:22.695
organization and autonomy

00:45:22.715 --> 00:45:24.478
of the individual as much

00:45:24.538 --> 00:45:25.900
as possible when building.

00:45:26.981 --> 00:45:30.125
And we recognize we are an organization.

00:45:32.755 --> 00:45:33.356
And like you said,

00:45:33.476 --> 00:45:34.778
that creates friction right

00:45:34.818 --> 00:45:35.840
away if you're trying to be

00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:37.101
a fundamentalist in terms

00:45:37.141 --> 00:45:39.523
of autonomy or decentralization.

00:45:39.543 --> 00:45:40.726
And I think if you think of

00:45:40.766 --> 00:45:42.027
it more philosophically,

00:45:42.106 --> 00:45:43.268
like you prompted at the beginning,

00:45:43.309 --> 00:45:44.570
this might get philosophical.

00:45:44.590 --> 00:45:44.769
Well,

00:45:44.789 --> 00:45:47.954
think of it more philosophically and

00:45:48.414 --> 00:45:49.576
see it as an experimental

00:45:49.596 --> 00:45:51.257
space and see it as nested.

00:45:52.007 --> 00:45:52.327
groups.

00:45:52.668 --> 00:45:54.409
Because if we know as in DAOs,

00:45:54.429 --> 00:45:55.769
we talk about sub DAOs and

00:45:55.931 --> 00:45:58.052
guilds and project teams and like,

00:45:58.472 --> 00:46:00.233
you know, committees and working groups,

00:46:00.293 --> 00:46:00.954
et cetera.

00:46:01.253 --> 00:46:03.494
These are all nested within

00:46:03.534 --> 00:46:04.315
this other thing that we

00:46:04.335 --> 00:46:05.317
were calling the DAO,

00:46:05.336 --> 00:46:06.597
which are all nested within

00:46:06.617 --> 00:46:08.378
the Ethereum ecosystem of DAOs,

00:46:08.418 --> 00:46:09.438
which are all nested in the

00:46:09.478 --> 00:46:13.081
global ecosystem of organizations,

00:46:13.541 --> 00:46:15.282
state nations, et cetera, that are,

00:46:15.802 --> 00:46:17.744
I think the DAO movement is asking,

00:46:17.885 --> 00:46:19.045
try to become more

00:46:19.105 --> 00:46:21.467
decentralized and give more autonomy to

00:46:22.728 --> 00:46:24.751
as you organize on a global scale.

00:46:24.831 --> 00:46:26.452
And so if you zoom in and

00:46:26.472 --> 00:46:28.835
start to attack a

00:46:28.876 --> 00:46:31.099
particular cell and not see

00:46:31.159 --> 00:46:33.201
the whole as attempting to

00:46:33.240 --> 00:46:34.362
become more decentralized

00:46:34.422 --> 00:46:35.523
with this movement and that

00:46:35.543 --> 00:46:36.865
it is a philosophy and a movement,

00:46:37.266 --> 00:46:39.509
then forest trees, you're missing it,

00:46:39.608 --> 00:46:40.190
in my opinion.

00:46:40.971 --> 00:46:41.190
Yeah.

00:46:41.786 --> 00:46:42.365
Well, I love that.

00:46:42.385 --> 00:46:42.846
I mean,

00:46:42.925 --> 00:46:44.266
and just to take your metaphor

00:46:44.867 --> 00:46:46.708
regarding agile a little bit farther,

00:46:46.907 --> 00:46:47.108
you know,

00:46:47.148 --> 00:46:48.467
you probably end up with a lot

00:46:48.487 --> 00:46:50.548
of arguments over is this

00:46:50.668 --> 00:46:51.668
agile or is it not?

00:46:51.849 --> 00:46:52.088
Right.

00:46:52.429 --> 00:46:53.929
But then someone coming at

00:46:53.949 --> 00:46:55.469
it from your perspective would say, look,

00:46:55.489 --> 00:46:56.210
it doesn't matter.

00:46:56.431 --> 00:46:58.150
Is it are we is it more

00:46:58.311 --> 00:47:00.311
agile than are we using

00:47:00.431 --> 00:47:01.771
agile as the as the North

00:47:01.791 --> 00:47:03.612
Star to make decisions?

00:47:03.773 --> 00:47:03.913
Right.

00:47:03.932 --> 00:47:05.833
And then it doesn't have to

00:47:05.873 --> 00:47:06.954
be agile or not.

00:47:07.034 --> 00:47:08.454
It's just are we following

00:47:08.474 --> 00:47:10.054
these principles in ways that are useful?

00:47:11.018 --> 00:47:11.197
Yeah,

00:47:11.217 --> 00:47:12.800
I really struggle with frameworks

00:47:12.820 --> 00:47:14.280
like scrum.org,

00:47:14.300 --> 00:47:15.262
which are effectively there

00:47:15.302 --> 00:47:15.963
to tell you that there's

00:47:15.983 --> 00:47:17.224
only one way to do it and

00:47:17.284 --> 00:47:18.405
sell you consulting hours

00:47:19.326 --> 00:47:21.327
versus the manifesto is instructive.

00:47:21.668 --> 00:47:22.369
Every time we're having a

00:47:22.409 --> 00:47:23.769
discussion as a team trying

00:47:23.789 --> 00:47:25.431
to be more agile, ask,

00:47:25.532 --> 00:47:27.213
is this what the manifesto

00:47:27.253 --> 00:47:28.514
was calling us to be and do?

00:47:29.135 --> 00:47:31.056
And then have a debate and

00:47:31.336 --> 00:47:32.197
try and experiment.

00:47:33.143 --> 00:47:33.342
Yep.

00:47:34.023 --> 00:47:34.344
Awesome.

00:47:34.483 --> 00:47:34.784
All right.

00:47:34.903 --> 00:47:35.043
Well,

00:47:35.083 --> 00:47:36.844
that does it for the JustDAOit news

00:47:36.925 --> 00:47:37.346
report.

00:47:38.186 --> 00:47:39.867
We will do a quick segue here,

00:47:39.907 --> 00:47:41.387
including an ad for MyDAO,

00:47:41.447 --> 00:47:42.349
the sponsor of the show.

00:47:42.708 --> 00:47:43.869
And then we'll turn to our

00:47:43.989 --> 00:47:45.690
in-depth interview with B Pete's.

00:47:46.190 --> 00:47:46.911
So for the ad,

00:47:47.331 --> 00:47:48.552
just a reminder to everyone

00:47:48.572 --> 00:47:50.534
listening that MyDAO, my company,

00:47:51.155 --> 00:47:52.295
provides legal entity

00:47:52.315 --> 00:47:53.715
solutions for DAOs based

00:47:53.755 --> 00:47:54.717
out of the Marshall Islands.

00:47:55.197 --> 00:47:56.878
We also have a network of

00:47:57.057 --> 00:47:59.340
crypto and Web3 and DAO lawyers,

00:47:59.699 --> 00:48:00.541
tax advisors,

00:48:00.621 --> 00:48:02.222
other professionals all over the world.

00:48:02.641 --> 00:48:03.483
that we're happy to get you

00:48:03.523 --> 00:48:04.844
connected with and no charge.

00:48:05.965 --> 00:48:07.445
Or if you are a lawyer or

00:48:07.847 --> 00:48:08.967
another professional

00:48:09.007 --> 00:48:10.349
advisor and would like to

00:48:10.389 --> 00:48:11.389
be added to our network,

00:48:11.469 --> 00:48:12.650
please reach out about

00:48:13.431 --> 00:48:14.873
finding more business also

00:48:14.913 --> 00:48:16.213
at no cost through myDAO

00:48:16.273 --> 00:48:18.036
and about our legal entity options.

00:48:18.876 --> 00:48:19.677
With that out of the way,

00:48:19.737 --> 00:48:20.757
let's turn to the featured

00:48:20.818 --> 00:48:23.780
guest interview with Bee Peets.

00:48:24.380 --> 00:48:25.521
You already told us, Brian,

00:48:25.561 --> 00:48:27.402
a little bit earlier on

00:48:27.844 --> 00:48:29.465
about how you got into Web3.

00:48:29.585 --> 00:48:31.005
I just want to recap it and

00:48:31.025 --> 00:48:32.047
see if I got this about

00:48:32.086 --> 00:48:33.929
right before we turn to other questions.

00:48:34.429 --> 00:48:36.150
So you were working, I believe,

00:48:36.269 --> 00:48:37.811
in the railroad business,

00:48:38.050 --> 00:48:39.391
which turned out to be a

00:48:39.411 --> 00:48:41.012
little bit too low tech for you.

00:48:41.612 --> 00:48:42.813
And then you were in smart

00:48:42.873 --> 00:48:44.614
cities where you realized

00:48:44.875 --> 00:48:45.755
in conjunction with your

00:48:45.775 --> 00:48:46.896
experience in railroads

00:48:47.336 --> 00:48:48.396
that there were problems

00:48:48.557 --> 00:48:50.179
with bureaucracy and how

00:48:50.219 --> 00:48:50.998
things were governed.

00:48:51.518 --> 00:48:53.440
And so it sounded like to me,

00:48:53.460 --> 00:48:54.880
you put those two things together,

00:48:54.900 --> 00:48:57.483
high tech and new forms of governance,

00:48:57.702 --> 00:49:00.385
and ended up finding crypto and DAOs.

00:49:00.945 --> 00:49:01.925
Is that about how you got

00:49:01.985 --> 00:49:03.226
into Web3 in the first place,

00:49:03.507 --> 00:49:04.427
or did I miss anything?

00:49:05.246 --> 00:49:06.748
No, that's the basic gist of it, yep.

00:49:07.628 --> 00:49:08.768
Okay, awesome.

00:49:08.929 --> 00:49:10.210
So let's dig into what

00:49:10.230 --> 00:49:11.630
you're working on right now,

00:49:11.670 --> 00:49:12.572
because I think there's at

00:49:12.632 --> 00:49:14.072
least three things we can talk about.

00:49:15.233 --> 00:49:17.193
I think we can talk about at least Hats,

00:49:17.434 --> 00:49:19.014
Sobol, and Tipster.

00:49:19.275 --> 00:49:19.695
Is that right?

00:49:20.715 --> 00:49:22.197
Yeah, yeah, those are really fun ones.

00:49:22.958 --> 00:49:24.938
Okay, so where should we start?

00:49:25.639 --> 00:49:28.521
Maybe which one was first in your life?

00:49:29.871 --> 00:49:30.632
Yeah, Sobel was.

00:49:32.195 --> 00:49:34.639
Sobel started when I joined

00:49:34.780 --> 00:49:36.143
the Consensus Mesh in 2017.

00:49:36.143 --> 00:49:39.909
It was Sobel.

00:49:40.028 --> 00:49:40.510
What is that?

00:49:40.530 --> 00:49:42.092
What is the Consensus Mesh?

00:49:43.085 --> 00:49:43.465
Yeah.

00:49:43.686 --> 00:49:46.429
So back in 2017, during the ICO boom,

00:49:47.429 --> 00:49:51.793
consensus with Joe Lubin's

00:49:51.853 --> 00:49:53.454
leadership and capital was

00:49:53.494 --> 00:49:54.755
trying to figure out how to

00:49:54.795 --> 00:49:55.976
build all of the apps and

00:49:56.016 --> 00:49:58.438
infra that Ethereum and the

00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:00.340
Ethereum virtual machine was promising.

00:50:00.561 --> 00:50:04.043
And so it's the home that

00:50:04.143 --> 00:50:09.009
incubated MetaMask, Infura, Gitcoin.

00:50:10.391 --> 00:50:11.092
and many others.

00:50:11.331 --> 00:50:12.532
And in many ways,

00:50:13.313 --> 00:50:15.213
because Joe is one of the

00:50:15.353 --> 00:50:16.873
founders of Ethereum,

00:50:17.713 --> 00:50:18.875
was very close to the idea

00:50:18.934 --> 00:50:20.635
of decentralization in

00:50:21.880 --> 00:50:24.001
in organizing and in how

00:50:24.041 --> 00:50:25.581
capital moves and decisions

00:50:25.621 --> 00:50:26.322
around capital,

00:50:26.402 --> 00:50:28.083
not just the technology layer.

00:50:28.282 --> 00:50:30.563
And so ConsenSys at that

00:50:30.623 --> 00:50:32.164
phase was experimenting

00:50:32.184 --> 00:50:33.365
with what now we have come

00:50:33.405 --> 00:50:34.505
to call proto DAOs.

00:50:35.527 --> 00:50:36.927
There was what they called

00:50:37.007 --> 00:50:38.347
the hub and spoke model.

00:50:38.568 --> 00:50:40.969
And so they had hub services

00:50:41.769 --> 00:50:42.969
and venture spokes that

00:50:42.989 --> 00:50:44.190
were all being incubated

00:50:44.610 --> 00:50:47.632
and a large global remote first talent

00:50:49.092 --> 00:50:50.353
pool that was effectively

00:50:50.393 --> 00:50:51.614
capable of moving across

00:50:51.693 --> 00:50:52.434
all of these things.

00:50:52.494 --> 00:50:53.135
And so there were like

00:50:53.715 --> 00:50:56.715
marketing services and

00:50:57.376 --> 00:50:58.996
design services and design

00:50:59.077 --> 00:51:00.657
thinking groups.

00:51:00.998 --> 00:51:02.257
And then there were ventures

00:51:02.978 --> 00:51:03.659
called the spokes.

00:51:04.099 --> 00:51:06.679
And so the ventures had to

00:51:06.719 --> 00:51:08.300
make decisions regarding

00:51:08.500 --> 00:51:09.561
capital and runway.

00:51:10.001 --> 00:51:12.041
And initially Joe was making

00:51:12.061 --> 00:51:13.041
those decisions, but

00:51:13.722 --> 00:51:16.963
the power moved into the mesh itself,

00:51:17.182 --> 00:51:19.422
we would do what was called

00:51:19.463 --> 00:51:20.983
a resource allocation committee.

00:51:21.443 --> 00:51:22.204
And it was kind of like

00:51:22.224 --> 00:51:24.264
doing jury duty decisions

00:51:24.543 --> 00:51:25.884
around how capital would

00:51:25.943 --> 00:51:27.123
flow into the various

00:51:28.724 --> 00:51:30.985
spokes and hub services on

00:51:31.025 --> 00:51:31.985
a periodic basis.

00:51:32.085 --> 00:51:33.125
And so you would rotate in

00:51:33.324 --> 00:51:34.865
and act as a subject matter expert.

00:51:34.885 --> 00:51:36.126
So I participated sometimes

00:51:36.766 --> 00:51:38.525
as a product and go to market specialist,

00:51:38.706 --> 00:51:40.487
and then would be there to

00:51:40.527 --> 00:51:42.626
provide feedback to pitches,

00:51:43.606 --> 00:51:44.728
and asks for funding,

00:51:44.887 --> 00:51:46.108
which is a lot like what

00:51:46.148 --> 00:51:47.409
DAOs do in terms of grants

00:51:47.449 --> 00:51:48.469
and grant funding and grant

00:51:48.489 --> 00:51:49.789
committees setups.

00:51:49.829 --> 00:51:50.710
And so that's what they did,

00:51:50.730 --> 00:51:51.309
but they had to do it

00:51:51.670 --> 00:51:52.530
socially because they were

00:51:52.570 --> 00:51:53.710
actually building the infra

00:51:54.711 --> 00:51:57.152
that is being used by DAOs

00:51:57.693 --> 00:51:59.333
in the next cycle in 2021.

00:51:59.333 --> 00:52:01.054
And so it was all a little too early.

00:52:01.914 --> 00:52:03.514
There were identity plays like Uport

00:52:04.175 --> 00:52:05.916
There were MetaMask and then

00:52:05.956 --> 00:52:07.717
there was Gnosis was in the

00:52:07.757 --> 00:52:09.617
ecosystem as well of consensus.

00:52:10.197 --> 00:52:11.117
And so, you know,

00:52:11.137 --> 00:52:13.079
you get multisigs later and

00:52:13.278 --> 00:52:15.000
you know how powerful they are for DAOs.

00:52:17.541 --> 00:52:18.581
But that wasn't there at

00:52:18.621 --> 00:52:19.141
that point in time.

00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:22.702
So Sobel was myself and my

00:52:22.722 --> 00:52:24.282
fellow co-founders embedded

00:52:24.342 --> 00:52:26.603
in that mesh and trying to

00:52:26.704 --> 00:52:28.625
understand how we can help

00:52:28.644 --> 00:52:29.405
solve some of the

00:52:29.425 --> 00:52:30.646
coordination problems and

00:52:30.686 --> 00:52:31.505
challenges that were there.

00:52:31.525 --> 00:52:33.246
And the very first one that we were given

00:52:33.817 --> 00:52:34.518
And we were actually given

00:52:34.557 --> 00:52:35.619
two when we sort of

00:52:35.639 --> 00:52:36.501
researched and wanted to

00:52:36.541 --> 00:52:39.065
support this group and build something.

00:52:39.085 --> 00:52:41.349
And one was the information

00:52:41.409 --> 00:52:42.451
is all over the place.

00:52:43.873 --> 00:52:45.735
And so I can't find what I'm looking for.

00:52:46.483 --> 00:52:48.063
which would be like the it's

00:52:48.103 --> 00:52:49.923
in notion somewhere or in G

00:52:49.963 --> 00:52:51.025
drive somewhere kind of thing.

00:52:51.324 --> 00:52:52.525
And it was rapidly evolving.

00:52:52.545 --> 00:52:53.226
And then the other was

00:52:53.746 --> 00:52:54.905
everything is changing so

00:52:54.985 --> 00:52:56.047
rapidly around here because

00:52:56.086 --> 00:52:57.007
people are moving in and

00:52:57.027 --> 00:52:58.128
out of different teams or

00:52:58.168 --> 00:52:59.487
participating in roles on

00:52:59.547 --> 00:53:01.688
multiple ventures or new

00:53:01.728 --> 00:53:02.949
ventures are being created

00:53:03.108 --> 00:53:04.369
or spokes are shutting down

00:53:04.510 --> 00:53:06.690
and then dispersing people

00:53:06.771 --> 00:53:07.971
back into the broader mesh

00:53:07.990 --> 00:53:09.072
to find other spots to

00:53:09.092 --> 00:53:10.251
participate and contribute.

00:53:10.592 --> 00:53:12.012
And that dynamic nature

00:53:12.393 --> 00:53:13.253
at a certain scale was

00:53:13.293 --> 00:53:15.117
causing a lot of challenge and friction.

00:53:15.597 --> 00:53:18.581
And we got tasked by the

00:53:18.621 --> 00:53:20.362
mesh to go and take a look at that.

00:53:20.422 --> 00:53:21.364
Can we visualize that?

00:53:22.230 --> 00:53:23.311
Can we stay on top of that?

00:53:23.971 --> 00:53:25.713
And how might we do so?

00:53:25.753 --> 00:53:28.255
And that's what Sobel was born to do.

00:53:28.434 --> 00:53:30.096
We were born to visualize decentralized,

00:53:30.175 --> 00:53:31.376
autonomous organizations.

00:53:31.797 --> 00:53:33.099
And as they rapidly evolve,

00:53:33.139 --> 00:53:34.360
be able to create a clear picture.

00:53:34.400 --> 00:53:35.139
Because one of the things

00:53:35.179 --> 00:53:37.862
that we missed that was

00:53:37.943 --> 00:53:39.724
there for us in traditional

00:53:39.764 --> 00:53:41.224
organizations is the org chart.

00:53:41.505 --> 00:53:43.266
The org chart is a wayfinding mechanism.

00:53:43.327 --> 00:53:44.188
It's an imperfect one

00:53:44.208 --> 00:53:45.088
because it's not actually

00:53:45.148 --> 00:53:46.989
how work gets done in the organization,

00:53:47.630 --> 00:53:48.630
as per a conversation of

00:53:48.791 --> 00:53:49.851
Agile previously.

00:53:51.762 --> 00:53:54.443
Uh, the org chart did help us navigate,

00:53:54.523 --> 00:53:56.204
particularly as you're rapidly growing.

00:53:56.625 --> 00:53:57.224
Um, you know,

00:53:57.324 --> 00:53:58.306
you've got new people coming

00:53:58.405 --> 00:53:59.545
in and in DAOs,

00:53:59.606 --> 00:54:00.786
we describe this now as the

00:54:00.907 --> 00:54:01.867
onboarding problem.

00:54:02.527 --> 00:54:02.608
Uh,

00:54:02.788 --> 00:54:04.389
and so Sobel really wanted to make it

00:54:04.509 --> 00:54:05.849
easy to see what's going on

00:54:05.869 --> 00:54:07.429
in the DAO and try to find

00:54:07.469 --> 00:54:09.632
a spot to participate that was, you know,

00:54:09.952 --> 00:54:10.931
bringing you at the

00:54:10.992 --> 00:54:12.012
intersection of your

00:54:12.072 --> 00:54:13.673
passions and skills and the

00:54:13.713 --> 00:54:14.653
emerging business needs.

00:54:14.673 --> 00:54:17.315
So we'd model, um, roles, um,

00:54:17.436 --> 00:54:19.697
people and their profiles, teams,

00:54:20.498 --> 00:54:23.840
And we would model goals and

00:54:23.900 --> 00:54:25.202
relationships between goals

00:54:25.382 --> 00:54:27.766
and people and roles that

00:54:27.786 --> 00:54:28.465
are activating them.

00:54:28.565 --> 00:54:29.306
And we would model

00:54:30.027 --> 00:54:31.289
agreements as well was one

00:54:31.309 --> 00:54:32.250
of the objects that came up

00:54:32.291 --> 00:54:33.030
as we continued

00:54:33.070 --> 00:54:34.972
investigating this with consensus.

00:54:35.034 --> 00:54:36.355
And so teams would form

00:54:36.394 --> 00:54:37.356
agreements with one another

00:54:37.396 --> 00:54:38.938
to work together via the services

00:54:39.398 --> 00:54:41.019
agreement with the marketing

00:54:41.059 --> 00:54:42.621
department to do a

00:54:42.681 --> 00:54:44.222
rebranding of one of the spokes.

00:54:44.483 --> 00:54:45.242
And so these types of

00:54:45.282 --> 00:54:46.184
agreements and making them

00:54:46.224 --> 00:54:47.704
explicit and transparent,

00:54:48.106 --> 00:54:49.387
you start to get a really

00:54:49.527 --> 00:54:51.288
interesting network graph

00:54:51.949 --> 00:54:54.411
of how the organization is

00:54:54.530 --> 00:54:55.231
changing shape.

00:54:55.913 --> 00:54:57.775
and the ability to navigate.

00:54:57.994 --> 00:54:59.336
And so that's what Sobel was.

00:54:59.657 --> 00:55:02.539
And we've been on that for six years.

00:55:02.601 --> 00:55:03.961
We revamped it,

00:55:04.282 --> 00:55:05.384
connected it to Discord

00:55:05.443 --> 00:55:09.248
roles via Discord bot in

00:55:09.248 --> 00:55:11.291
2021 and started working

00:55:11.311 --> 00:55:12.813
with DAOs and had

00:55:14.755 --> 00:55:16.677
hundreds of monthly active DAOs,

00:55:16.956 --> 00:55:18.137
thousands of DAOs using

00:55:18.217 --> 00:55:19.338
Sobol to map their

00:55:19.398 --> 00:55:20.981
organizations and connect

00:55:21.001 --> 00:55:21.762
it into some of the tools

00:55:21.802 --> 00:55:22.762
that they were using like

00:55:22.802 --> 00:55:24.864
Discord or Collabland.

00:55:24.905 --> 00:55:27.007
We were a partner in their

00:55:27.047 --> 00:55:28.407
marketplace launch as well.

00:55:28.969 --> 00:55:30.690
And so Sobol was all about

00:55:30.769 --> 00:55:34.353
visualizing that coordination graph.

00:55:35.835 --> 00:55:36.235
Interesting.

00:55:36.275 --> 00:55:37.317
OK, so, you know,

00:55:37.436 --> 00:55:38.858
I was familiar with Sobel

00:55:39.217 --> 00:55:41.360
through BanklessDAO as a

00:55:41.420 --> 00:55:43.081
way of very literally

00:55:43.141 --> 00:55:45.983
visualizing like the org structure.

00:55:46.043 --> 00:55:47.824
So, you know, there were like circles.

00:55:48.565 --> 00:55:50.286
Maybe one was a marketing guild.

00:55:50.505 --> 00:55:51.967
One was the Treasury Guild.

00:55:52.047 --> 00:55:53.208
One was a grants committee.

00:55:53.748 --> 00:55:54.509
And you could see and I

00:55:54.528 --> 00:55:55.889
could see which ones I was

00:55:55.909 --> 00:55:57.150
in and which ones other people were in.

00:55:57.931 --> 00:55:59.351
But it sounds like you guys

00:55:59.371 --> 00:56:00.693
have gone a little beyond

00:56:01.032 --> 00:56:02.693
just that if you're

00:56:02.713 --> 00:56:03.554
integrating things like

00:56:03.594 --> 00:56:04.795
Discord roles and

00:56:04.974 --> 00:56:06.434
agreements between groups

00:56:06.494 --> 00:56:07.396
or between members.

00:56:07.416 --> 00:56:08.036
I mean,

00:56:08.076 --> 00:56:09.996
how do you think about how far does

00:56:10.036 --> 00:56:10.978
Sobel go?

00:56:10.998 --> 00:56:11.577
By the way,

00:56:11.617 --> 00:56:13.338
it's Sobel.io if folks are

00:56:13.358 --> 00:56:14.079
looking to check it out.

00:56:14.719 --> 00:56:15.900
How far does that go in

00:56:16.521 --> 00:56:18.722
terms of just wanting to be

00:56:18.742 --> 00:56:19.862
a visualization layer

00:56:20.322 --> 00:56:22.362
versus also getting

00:56:22.403 --> 00:56:24.344
involved in the structure

00:56:24.545 --> 00:56:25.505
of the organization?

00:56:25.625 --> 00:56:27.005
Is Sobel where...

00:56:28.038 --> 00:56:30.199
these agreements are forms between groups,

00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:32.199
or just visualized?

00:56:33.300 --> 00:56:35.202
Yeah, so Sokol's philosophy,

00:56:35.382 --> 00:56:37.842
and in many ways, it was way too early.

00:56:38.784 --> 00:56:40.684
But, you know, that's kind of

00:56:41.128 --> 00:56:43.369
half the fun sometimes as a founder.

00:56:43.869 --> 00:56:47.110
And so Sobel's thought was that,

00:56:47.130 --> 00:56:50.150
because it comes from sort of that 2017,

00:56:50.150 --> 00:56:50.731
2018 era,

00:56:51.690 --> 00:56:53.110
where there was something back

00:56:53.150 --> 00:56:54.092
then called the fat

00:56:54.152 --> 00:56:55.251
protocol thesis and the

00:56:55.291 --> 00:56:56.692
idea that a lot was going

00:56:56.711 --> 00:56:58.072
to be happening at the protocol layer.

00:56:58.353 --> 00:56:59.172
It was going to be open and

00:56:59.193 --> 00:57:01.572
composable and tokenized

00:57:01.773 --> 00:57:03.853
and visible on chain, et cetera.

00:57:04.213 --> 00:57:05.673
And so we were like, wow,

00:57:05.753 --> 00:57:06.673
organizations are going to

00:57:06.713 --> 00:57:09.054
get completely on chain and

00:57:09.114 --> 00:57:10.275
there's going to be a need for clients.

00:57:10.898 --> 00:57:11.639
And so we wanted to build

00:57:11.659 --> 00:57:12.420
the first client.

00:57:12.840 --> 00:57:14.623
And our hope was that our

00:57:14.663 --> 00:57:16.105
backend would be completely

00:57:16.224 --> 00:57:17.726
eaten by the protocol layer.

00:57:18.206 --> 00:57:19.347
And then we were waiting and

00:57:19.407 --> 00:57:21.449
waiting and waiting and had way too much,

00:57:21.489 --> 00:57:21.831
you know,

00:57:21.871 --> 00:57:24.052
living in this Neo4j graph data model,

00:57:24.954 --> 00:57:26.376
you know, on an Amazon backend.

00:57:27.016 --> 00:57:28.018
And we just kept waiting and

00:57:28.057 --> 00:57:28.679
waiting and waiting.

00:57:28.980 --> 00:57:31.742
And we watched the identity space.

00:57:31.782 --> 00:57:33.085
And we would take a look at

00:57:33.125 --> 00:57:34.387
decentralized identity and

00:57:34.407 --> 00:57:35.367
the way in which it was

00:57:35.387 --> 00:57:36.949
going to create an open

00:57:36.989 --> 00:57:38.652
protocol of relationships

00:57:39.213 --> 00:57:39.974
between things via

00:57:40.034 --> 00:57:41.255
verifiable credentials.

00:57:42.077 --> 00:57:43.577
as we waited for more things

00:57:43.617 --> 00:57:46.079
to go on-chain, you know, like governance,

00:57:46.340 --> 00:57:47.521
except it wasn't.

00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:48.621
And so we were going to have

00:57:48.641 --> 00:57:50.422
to use APIs to integrate to

00:57:50.463 --> 00:57:52.063
things like snapshot, et cetera.

00:57:52.485 --> 00:57:54.166
And so that was rather

00:57:54.266 --> 00:57:56.226
frustrating to not see that

00:57:56.306 --> 00:57:59.110
protocol gap closing as

00:57:59.170 --> 00:57:59.929
fast as we'd hoped,

00:58:00.170 --> 00:58:00.851
which is part of the reason

00:58:00.911 --> 00:58:02.092
why I think the other thing

00:58:02.291 --> 00:58:03.293
that we were mentioning,

00:58:03.313 --> 00:58:04.373
and this is a good point to bring it up,

00:58:04.452 --> 00:58:05.414
is HATS protocol.

00:58:05.793 --> 00:58:06.755
HATS protocol was the first

00:58:06.775 --> 00:58:07.436
protocol that was

00:58:07.476 --> 00:58:09.257
structural in nature and on-chain.

00:58:10.092 --> 00:58:10.574
Uh, and,

00:58:10.813 --> 00:58:13.697
and so we saw hats protocol as

00:58:13.777 --> 00:58:14.958
taking a lot of the roles

00:58:15.197 --> 00:58:16.420
that were in discord role

00:58:16.460 --> 00:58:17.960
tags and other web two apps,

00:58:18.280 --> 00:58:19.543
and we're in these sort of

00:58:19.563 --> 00:58:23.146
sequestered centralized backends and, uh,

00:58:23.266 --> 00:58:24.947
and bringing them into an on-chain.

00:58:25.454 --> 00:58:26.115
primitive that could be

00:58:26.135 --> 00:58:27.476
composed into governance

00:58:28.137 --> 00:58:29.677
and other smart contract

00:58:29.717 --> 00:58:31.179
based automation to

00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:32.760
automate the evolution of

00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:34.802
structure and bring it on chain.

00:58:34.822 --> 00:58:36.284
And I was like, wow, that's amazing.

00:58:36.304 --> 00:58:37.244
The first time I read the

00:58:37.284 --> 00:58:39.827
paper that Spencer and the

00:58:39.867 --> 00:58:41.108
team were putting forward over there,

00:58:41.668 --> 00:58:42.688
And that was the protocol we

00:58:42.708 --> 00:58:43.128
were waiting for.

00:58:43.168 --> 00:58:44.329
We wanted to be an ideal partner.

00:58:44.349 --> 00:58:46.632
And so Sovel's next chapter

00:58:46.911 --> 00:58:48.253
after the 2021 chapter of

00:58:48.293 --> 00:58:50.916
trying to integrate to Discord, you know,

00:58:51.275 --> 00:58:53.978
Collabland, Gnosis Safe, and then,

00:58:54.157 --> 00:58:54.338
you know,

00:58:54.358 --> 00:58:55.518
explore the integrations to

00:58:55.579 --> 00:58:57.800
identity solutions and Snapshot.

00:58:57.880 --> 00:58:58.481
And it's just like,

00:58:59.161 --> 00:59:00.161
wasn't quite working,

00:59:00.442 --> 00:59:02.063
we went over and we built a HATS client.

00:59:02.362 --> 00:59:04.523
So we created a HATS client

00:59:04.543 --> 00:59:05.764
that was a code composer

00:59:05.784 --> 00:59:08.425
where you could compose your HATS tree.

00:59:08.565 --> 00:59:09.945
You could compose it with

00:59:09.985 --> 00:59:11.085
things like Gnosis Safe or

00:59:11.144 --> 00:59:12.666
Molex Governance.

00:59:12.806 --> 00:59:14.186
You could click a deploy

00:59:14.226 --> 00:59:15.246
button and do an automated

00:59:15.286 --> 00:59:16.086
deploy sequence,

00:59:16.286 --> 00:59:17.027
and you could actually

00:59:17.067 --> 00:59:18.987
interact with that using an LLM.

00:59:19.027 --> 00:59:20.188
So we were playing with that as well.

00:59:21.047 --> 00:59:22.469
we love this idea that there

00:59:22.489 --> 00:59:24.170
can be a many client world

00:59:25.072 --> 00:59:26.092
over top of these protocols.

00:59:26.112 --> 00:59:26.893
And I think this is

00:59:26.932 --> 00:59:27.793
something that now the

00:59:27.833 --> 00:59:29.135
industry is really starting

00:59:29.155 --> 00:59:31.077
to marinate into because of Farcaster.

00:59:32.338 --> 00:59:33.759
And so we start to see how

00:59:33.798 --> 00:59:35.119
Farcaster as a protocol can

00:59:35.181 --> 00:59:36.141
produce lots of social

00:59:36.161 --> 00:59:37.943
clients or Lens as a

00:59:37.963 --> 00:59:39.103
protocol can produce lots

00:59:39.143 --> 00:59:40.945
of different Lens and

00:59:41.005 --> 00:59:42.166
Lensster style clients.

00:59:42.407 --> 00:59:44.389
And we can see

00:59:45.532 --> 00:59:47.713
this now more, you know, visibly.

00:59:47.914 --> 00:59:49.556
And that was the vision of Sobel was like,

00:59:49.757 --> 00:59:50.476
that's going to happen as

00:59:50.496 --> 00:59:52.139
well for DAO tooling.

00:59:52.860 --> 00:59:54.442
But it kind of didn't last cycle.

00:59:54.581 --> 00:59:55.422
And so I'd really like to

00:59:55.483 --> 00:59:56.423
see it in this cycle.

00:59:57.556 --> 00:59:59.157
So I know we still want to

00:59:59.177 --> 01:00:00.177
talk about tipster too,

01:00:00.237 --> 01:00:01.998
but let's dig into the DAO

01:00:02.018 --> 01:00:03.099
tooling space for a minute

01:00:03.159 --> 01:00:04.920
because it's interesting to

01:00:04.980 --> 01:00:05.980
hear about your

01:00:06.121 --> 01:00:07.780
disappointment in the

01:00:07.820 --> 01:00:09.181
progression of protocols

01:00:09.862 --> 01:00:10.922
over the course of at least

01:00:11.063 --> 01:00:12.842
a few years leading up to a

01:00:12.882 --> 01:00:13.643
couple of years ago.

01:00:15.143 --> 01:00:17.764
And I would say I've maybe

01:00:17.804 --> 01:00:18.965
had a similar experience

01:00:19.045 --> 01:00:20.606
over the past three years

01:00:20.987 --> 01:00:22.186
since I got into DAOs for

01:00:22.226 --> 01:00:23.887
the first time where

01:00:24.867 --> 01:00:26.588
Initially, when I got into DAOs,

01:00:27.188 --> 01:00:28.088
what was really exciting

01:00:28.128 --> 01:00:29.170
was all the DAO tooling.

01:00:29.969 --> 01:00:31.030
We were going from a world

01:00:31.070 --> 01:00:32.170
where you had maybe one or

01:00:32.231 --> 01:00:34.552
two DAO tooling platforms,

01:00:35.012 --> 01:00:37.413
maybe like Moloch and DAO Stack,

01:00:37.472 --> 01:00:38.753
fairly technical still.

01:00:38.873 --> 01:00:39.673
Most people still,

01:00:39.693 --> 01:00:40.634
if you were launching a DAO,

01:00:40.653 --> 01:00:42.034
you'd probably be writing your own code,

01:00:42.454 --> 01:00:43.974
to a world where you had 10

01:00:43.974 --> 01:00:46.615
or 15 DAO tooling platforms.

01:00:48.536 --> 01:00:50.097
where you could go and just

01:00:50.117 --> 01:00:51.217
through a web interface,

01:00:51.659 --> 01:00:53.579
configure your DAOs parameters,

01:00:54.199 --> 01:00:55.139
hit a button to launch

01:00:55.159 --> 01:00:56.521
about all the smart contracts.

01:00:57.141 --> 01:00:58.201
And then that tool would

01:00:58.240 --> 01:01:00.121
help you manage the DAO,

01:01:00.181 --> 01:01:01.782
visualize the DAO, stuff like that.

01:01:02.503 --> 01:01:03.483
And initially,

01:01:03.704 --> 01:01:05.023
when I left my corporate job

01:01:05.385 --> 01:01:06.565
just under three years ago,

01:01:06.585 --> 01:01:08.545
I got into the DAO tooling space.

01:01:08.646 --> 01:01:10.027
I was going to build new DAO

01:01:10.067 --> 01:01:12.228
tools until I came across

01:01:12.427 --> 01:01:15.268
the opportunity to run my DAO instead.

01:01:15.728 --> 01:01:17.050
which was, it was a total surprise.

01:01:17.070 --> 01:01:17.990
I mean, I'm not a lawyer,

01:01:18.010 --> 01:01:19.253
I'm a tech entrepreneur.

01:01:19.373 --> 01:01:20.713
I ended up now running this

01:01:20.793 --> 01:01:22.074
legal related business.

01:01:23.456 --> 01:01:23.737
But,

01:01:23.757 --> 01:01:26.139
and I think over the past couple of years,

01:01:26.199 --> 01:01:27.501
I kind of felt like, okay, like,

01:01:28.614 --> 01:01:29.956
that's fine that I'm working

01:01:29.996 --> 01:01:30.735
on the legal side,

01:01:30.775 --> 01:01:31.836
it's a good opportunity,

01:01:31.896 --> 01:01:32.878
there's a real need here,

01:01:33.398 --> 01:01:34.778
but I'm glad to know that

01:01:34.818 --> 01:01:35.719
lots of people are working

01:01:35.760 --> 01:01:37.260
on the tooling side, because that's still,

01:01:37.380 --> 01:01:38.380
we still need to see a lot

01:01:38.400 --> 01:01:39.041
of progress there.

01:01:39.802 --> 01:01:41.503
And now fast forward a few years,

01:01:41.724 --> 01:01:43.625
it's not clear to me if we've made enough,

01:01:43.905 --> 01:01:45.186
at least a lot of progress

01:01:45.766 --> 01:01:46.786
on the DAO tooling side,

01:01:46.806 --> 01:01:48.407
at least when it comes to like the basic,

01:01:48.507 --> 01:01:51.690
like configure how you want

01:01:51.710 --> 01:01:52.670
your governance to work,

01:01:53.739 --> 01:01:55.280
what kind of token you want to use,

01:01:55.300 --> 01:01:56.641
how you're going to distribute it,

01:01:57.222 --> 01:01:58.702
and then like do the votes,

01:01:58.862 --> 01:02:00.003
the proposals and the votes.

01:02:00.402 --> 01:02:01.423
I feel like I haven't seen a

01:02:01.463 --> 01:02:02.003
lot of progress.

01:02:02.063 --> 01:02:02.503
If anything,

01:02:02.543 --> 01:02:04.405
like half of the tools have

01:02:04.465 --> 01:02:06.005
disappeared or stagnated

01:02:06.025 --> 01:02:08.286
and the other half maybe

01:02:08.367 --> 01:02:09.827
are relatively stagnant.

01:02:10.568 --> 01:02:11.268
And then I don't know,

01:02:11.367 --> 01:02:12.329
maybe there's just like a few,

01:02:12.369 --> 01:02:15.510
and now Hatz has been the one of the few,

01:02:15.570 --> 01:02:17.311
and then also some progress

01:02:17.371 --> 01:02:18.512
at Aragon and Dow House.

01:02:19.291 --> 01:02:20.114
I'm curious, though,

01:02:20.134 --> 01:02:21.476
if you agree with my

01:02:21.536 --> 01:02:24.362
assessment that there just

01:02:24.402 --> 01:02:25.465
hasn't been a lot of

01:02:25.505 --> 01:02:26.847
progress over the like,

01:02:26.907 --> 01:02:28.030
I feel like we're still far

01:02:28.170 --> 01:02:29.032
from mainstream.

01:02:30.217 --> 01:02:32.639
in terms of being ready for mainstream.

01:02:32.679 --> 01:02:33.559
Like if I was going to go to

01:02:33.599 --> 01:02:35.340
my friend who I've been

01:02:35.521 --> 01:02:36.521
talking about DAOs with for

01:02:36.541 --> 01:02:38.461
the past two years, and he says,

01:02:38.521 --> 01:02:39.463
so how has it gone?

01:02:39.523 --> 01:02:39.702
Like,

01:02:39.782 --> 01:02:42.364
is it time for me to start a DAO for

01:02:43.005 --> 01:02:45.826
my local like church group or not?

01:02:46.126 --> 01:02:48.146
I'd probably say maybe not.

01:02:48.327 --> 01:02:49.228
And I'd feel really bad

01:02:49.268 --> 01:02:51.148
about that because I wanted

01:02:51.188 --> 01:02:53.050
to be ready for that by now.

01:02:54.429 --> 01:02:54.670
Yeah.

01:02:55.030 --> 01:02:55.291
Yeah.

01:02:55.371 --> 01:02:57.952
And I think it's getting ready.

01:02:58.501 --> 01:03:01.623
And I think there were a lot

01:03:01.663 --> 01:03:03.784
of people and teams who

01:03:03.824 --> 01:03:05.244
tried really hard to build.

01:03:05.543 --> 01:03:06.405
And I think what really

01:03:06.445 --> 01:03:07.864
comes down to is if you

01:03:07.905 --> 01:03:10.905
look at Ethereum and its evolution,

01:03:13.351 --> 01:03:15.110
and the infrastructure, the amount,

01:03:15.291 --> 01:03:17.012
because I said it as my

01:03:17.112 --> 01:03:18.172
beginning of my story was

01:03:18.251 --> 01:03:19.431
actually amongst those who

01:03:19.472 --> 01:03:20.952
were working really hard

01:03:21.012 --> 01:03:22.293
together to try and bring

01:03:22.393 --> 01:03:23.652
up some of the key

01:03:23.713 --> 01:03:24.873
infrastructure that we now

01:03:24.954 --> 01:03:28.474
take for granted and that is flourishing.

01:03:28.534 --> 01:03:29.414
And it actually even has

01:03:29.474 --> 01:03:32.235
diversity now in terms of choice.

01:03:33.456 --> 01:03:35.996
Whereas, and that took multiple cycles.

01:03:36.655 --> 01:03:39.197
I feel like because of the DAO hack,

01:03:41.157 --> 01:03:43.038
we kind of lost a cycle on

01:03:43.077 --> 01:03:44.278
DAOs in some ways.

01:03:45.039 --> 01:03:46.760
And thanks to groups like

01:03:47.501 --> 01:03:49.400
those who summoned Moloch,

01:03:50.121 --> 01:03:52.382
they got us over our DAO PTSD.

01:03:53.923 --> 01:03:55.985
And we started to have

01:03:56.045 --> 01:03:58.226
something invigorated last cycle.

01:03:58.405 --> 01:03:59.306
And so I feel like last

01:03:59.346 --> 01:04:00.586
cycle was us testing the

01:04:00.626 --> 01:04:01.867
gaps in the infrastructure

01:04:01.907 --> 01:04:04.248
layer and noticing how much

01:04:04.289 --> 01:04:05.628
we were relying on kludging

01:04:05.688 --> 01:04:07.469
Web2 solutions or building

01:04:07.510 --> 01:04:09.918
what I call Web 2.5

01:04:09.918 --> 01:04:11.237
DAO tooling applications.

01:04:11.297 --> 01:04:12.378
As a DAO tooling creator,

01:04:12.478 --> 01:04:15.878
we created a web 2.5, not, you know,

01:04:15.918 --> 01:04:17.559
not a full bore, you know,

01:04:17.599 --> 01:04:18.940
web three application.

01:04:19.239 --> 01:04:19.699
And, you know,

01:04:19.739 --> 01:04:21.099
as I was calling out and

01:04:21.300 --> 01:04:24.601
that happened to many, and then, you know,

01:04:24.621 --> 01:04:26.061
the cycles do the cycles thing.

01:04:26.260 --> 01:04:27.161
And unfortunately it dumped

01:04:27.181 --> 01:04:28.201
some really good ideas and

01:04:28.221 --> 01:04:29.141
some really good teams

01:04:29.541 --> 01:04:30.722
because you have funding come in,

01:04:31.141 --> 01:04:32.041
you try something,

01:04:32.621 --> 01:04:34.041
and if you caught the wrong timing,

01:04:35.202 --> 01:04:36.643
you know, it recycles back out.

01:04:37.472 --> 01:04:37.652
You know,

01:04:37.672 --> 01:04:39.431
that intelligence recycles back out,

01:04:39.552 --> 01:04:41.373
but the team and what they

01:04:41.393 --> 01:04:42.632
were attempting to do too

01:04:42.733 --> 01:04:44.552
early was not conserved.

01:04:44.833 --> 01:04:45.494
I'm really grateful that

01:04:45.574 --> 01:04:46.393
HATS caught the right

01:04:46.434 --> 01:04:49.514
timing to push through,

01:04:49.673 --> 01:04:50.414
and there are many that

01:04:50.474 --> 01:04:51.695
have continued to build through,

01:04:51.775 --> 01:04:52.954
as you highlighted yourself.

01:04:53.034 --> 01:04:55.755
And I think there was also

01:04:55.815 --> 01:04:57.476
another key missing ingredient.

01:04:57.536 --> 01:04:58.416
DAOs are social,

01:04:59.715 --> 01:05:02.597
and the social layer was entirely Web2.

01:05:04.275 --> 01:05:05.757
It had a no construct.

01:05:06.016 --> 01:05:06.518
Yeah.

01:05:06.538 --> 01:05:09.139
Like Discord, Telegram, stuff like that.

01:05:09.159 --> 01:05:09.719
Exactly.

01:05:10.139 --> 01:05:10.440
Yeah.

01:05:10.500 --> 01:05:11.601
Discourse, you know,

01:05:11.641 --> 01:05:13.081
the place where we do governance even,

01:05:13.141 --> 01:05:13.902
which was a little more

01:05:13.943 --> 01:05:15.284
purpose built for the

01:05:15.344 --> 01:05:17.864
pre-governance process, social in nature,

01:05:18.065 --> 01:05:18.786
fully web too.

01:05:19.206 --> 01:05:20.086
Open source software,

01:05:20.146 --> 01:05:20.766
which is probably why

01:05:20.806 --> 01:05:22.248
discourse was chosen.

01:05:22.288 --> 01:05:23.469
You can post, et cetera.

01:05:23.889 --> 01:05:25.750
It's got good properties for

01:05:25.769 --> 01:05:27.130
a decentralized community to use,

01:05:27.170 --> 01:05:29.413
but it has very little knowledge.

01:05:29.913 --> 01:05:30.893
of all the other stuff

01:05:30.952 --> 01:05:32.793
that's going on adjacent to

01:05:32.853 --> 01:05:34.333
it that's in the on-chain world.

01:05:34.853 --> 01:05:35.793
Not to mention the fact that

01:05:35.954 --> 01:05:37.454
L2s as well were not

01:05:37.554 --> 01:05:39.235
full-fledged as DAOs

01:05:39.275 --> 01:05:40.856
started up in the last cycle.

01:05:40.876 --> 01:05:42.876
So we had to find ways around that too.

01:05:43.155 --> 01:05:45.536
And so Snapshot, I mentioned it earlier.

01:05:45.556 --> 01:05:47.077
I don't mention it disparagingly.

01:05:47.137 --> 01:05:49.257
I mentioned it as a gift in

01:05:49.277 --> 01:05:50.478
the same way that Polygon

01:05:50.518 --> 01:05:51.338
in the early days is a

01:05:51.398 --> 01:05:52.559
sidechain and Gnosis Chain

01:05:52.599 --> 01:05:53.259
is a sidechain.

01:05:53.278 --> 01:05:53.878
We're helping.

01:05:54.298 --> 01:05:55.579
They were a gift of scaling.

01:05:55.599 --> 01:05:57.840
NextEye was a gift of scaling.

01:05:58.900 --> 01:06:00.181
before scaling had arrived.

01:06:00.902 --> 01:06:01.342
And so,

01:06:01.643 --> 01:06:04.106
DAOs also really needed that kind

01:06:04.146 --> 01:06:05.148
of scaling on-chain to be

01:06:05.188 --> 01:06:06.429
able to do something like Hat.

01:06:06.949 --> 01:06:08.112
It would be ridiculous to

01:06:08.152 --> 01:06:09.592
try and track all your

01:06:09.653 --> 01:06:11.356
roles and have smart

01:06:11.396 --> 01:06:12.456
contract-based automation

01:06:12.496 --> 01:06:13.739
around your DAO structure

01:06:14.458 --> 01:06:16.320
uh, without, um, you know,

01:06:16.420 --> 01:06:17.820
that more performant, uh,

01:06:17.940 --> 01:06:18.760
execution layer.

01:06:18.920 --> 01:06:20.282
And so there's a lot of

01:06:20.362 --> 01:06:21.061
things that I think are

01:06:21.081 --> 01:06:22.101
brewing in this cycle that

01:06:22.222 --> 01:06:23.262
bring me optimism.

01:06:23.583 --> 01:06:26.764
One is lens Farcaster have

01:06:26.804 --> 01:06:29.445
had an opportunity to do a cycle, um,

01:06:29.585 --> 01:06:30.106
and mature.

01:06:30.865 --> 01:06:31.025
Um,

01:06:31.306 --> 01:06:32.646
and in the case of Farcaster have some

01:06:32.666 --> 01:06:33.827
daily active, uh,

01:06:33.907 --> 01:06:35.427
user breakout recently as well.

01:06:36.349 --> 01:06:37.168
And, uh,

01:06:37.954 --> 01:06:42.458
And also the L2s have really hit stride.

01:06:42.659 --> 01:06:44.780
And Ethereum L1 has been

01:06:44.862 --> 01:06:46.443
doing a lot to improve scaling.

01:06:46.722 --> 01:06:48.324
I think the merge happened last cycle.

01:06:48.545 --> 01:06:50.507
DAOs were trying to do stuff pre-merge.

01:06:52.289 --> 01:06:54.490
If you really steep in this history of it,

01:06:56.592 --> 01:06:58.775
I have a lot of empathy for

01:06:59.295 --> 01:07:00.456
how we built and why we

01:07:00.476 --> 01:07:01.197
built the way we did.

01:07:01.769 --> 01:07:02.690
And I have a lot of

01:07:02.750 --> 01:07:03.971
appreciation for groups

01:07:04.010 --> 01:07:05.510
that tried to glue it all together.

01:07:06.411 --> 01:07:08.152
You know, Collabland, Guild XYZ,

01:07:08.211 --> 01:07:08.911
trying to make sure that

01:07:08.952 --> 01:07:10.152
our social space was

01:07:10.213 --> 01:07:13.253
connected to our wallets

01:07:13.773 --> 01:07:16.134
and our on-chain identities.

01:07:16.974 --> 01:07:18.675
And so I think there's

01:07:18.695 --> 01:07:19.574
something magical that can

01:07:19.594 --> 01:07:21.235
happen this cycle,

01:07:21.255 --> 01:07:21.956
and that's why we are

01:07:21.976 --> 01:07:23.836
building tipster.bot that

01:07:23.856 --> 01:07:24.737
you mentioned earlier.

01:07:24.876 --> 01:07:27.137
I think Farcasters and Farcaster channels,

01:07:27.617 --> 01:07:28.438
that protocol,

01:07:29.376 --> 01:07:30.237
And some of the clients that

01:07:30.257 --> 01:07:31.577
are now being built upon it

01:07:32.038 --> 01:07:32.938
that are creating an

01:07:32.978 --> 01:07:34.079
invitation to communities

01:07:34.139 --> 01:07:36.039
to come and have an open

01:07:36.099 --> 01:07:38.320
social graph layer that's

01:07:38.360 --> 01:07:39.661
about how we socialize and

01:07:39.721 --> 01:07:41.501
follow one another that is

01:07:41.561 --> 01:07:42.943
connected to the token layer.

01:07:43.806 --> 01:07:45.106
uh through the wallet so

01:07:45.126 --> 01:07:46.068
they're verified wallets

01:07:46.108 --> 01:07:47.347
and ens that are connected

01:07:47.748 --> 01:07:49.027
and we're starting to see

01:07:49.088 --> 01:07:50.289
this bigger picture plus

01:07:50.429 --> 01:07:51.789
you know the power of um

01:07:52.009 --> 01:07:53.389
you know cost efficient l2s

01:07:54.150 --> 01:07:56.409
um we're we're starting to

01:07:56.469 --> 01:07:57.291
see that the right

01:07:57.371 --> 01:07:59.530
firepower um is there now

01:08:00.010 --> 01:08:01.891
to go at dows again and

01:08:01.972 --> 01:08:03.072
similar to the way in which

01:08:03.172 --> 01:08:04.532
malik had to get us over

01:08:04.592 --> 01:08:06.552
our ptsd of the dow hack

01:08:07.572 --> 01:08:08.833
uh with with all of the

01:08:09.175 --> 01:08:10.576
simplicity and precautions

01:08:10.655 --> 01:08:11.655
that the mullet contract

01:08:11.695 --> 01:08:12.856
had put in place to try and

01:08:12.876 --> 01:08:13.797
give us a chance to play

01:08:13.818 --> 01:08:15.039
with investment dows very

01:08:15.378 --> 01:08:16.640
simplified dows to spark

01:08:16.680 --> 01:08:19.181
the last one um I i really

01:08:19.242 --> 01:08:21.524
am excited to uh see how

01:08:21.783 --> 01:08:23.525
you know tipping games on

01:08:23.586 --> 01:08:24.806
these on these social

01:08:24.867 --> 01:08:26.747
substrates maybe get us

01:08:26.967 --> 01:08:28.309
over sort of that trough of

01:08:28.368 --> 01:08:29.489
disillusionment that we

01:08:29.529 --> 01:08:31.992
came into um as dows you

01:08:32.011 --> 01:08:32.832
know started being called

01:08:32.893 --> 01:08:34.054
dows and name only and

01:08:34.113 --> 01:08:35.414
treasuries got attacked and

01:08:35.454 --> 01:08:36.855
communities folded and

01:08:37.636 --> 01:08:39.597
The last cycle had its

01:08:39.717 --> 01:08:41.519
experiments and had its failures.

01:08:42.219 --> 01:08:44.180
And I think that a new wave

01:08:44.220 --> 01:08:47.382
of tooling is right to be

01:08:47.422 --> 01:08:49.203
built alongside those who

01:08:49.224 --> 01:08:50.204
have kept building and

01:08:50.265 --> 01:08:51.645
found ways to keep building.

01:08:52.827 --> 01:08:54.908
And I think new communities

01:08:54.967 --> 01:08:56.509
are forming and they're

01:08:56.548 --> 01:08:57.930
taking the classic pattern

01:08:57.949 --> 01:08:58.810
that they always took.

01:08:59.291 --> 01:09:01.512
It was tweets that sparked

01:09:01.632 --> 01:09:05.534
out and now it is posts and casts.

01:09:07.673 --> 01:09:09.836
in a decentralized social environment,

01:09:09.996 --> 01:09:11.358
which more rapidly can

01:09:11.417 --> 01:09:13.801
transition into DAO experiments.

01:09:13.940 --> 01:09:14.641
And we're already starting

01:09:14.662 --> 01:09:16.182
to see them over there on Farcaster.

01:09:16.222 --> 01:09:16.884
We're already starting to

01:09:16.963 --> 01:09:18.746
see DAO signals through

01:09:18.765 --> 01:09:19.567
these tipping games.

01:09:19.587 --> 01:09:20.668
That's an early DAO

01:09:20.729 --> 01:09:22.310
emissions game that's right

01:09:22.369 --> 01:09:23.110
up there with the types of

01:09:23.150 --> 01:09:24.193
things we saw last cycle

01:09:24.212 --> 01:09:25.753
with Coordinate and frankly,

01:09:25.854 --> 01:09:26.756
Cloudland tips.

01:09:27.475 --> 01:09:28.737
um and tipping bots were a

01:09:28.777 --> 01:09:30.056
big thing then too and so

01:09:30.317 --> 01:09:32.158
yeah redoing it but on the

01:09:32.278 --> 01:09:33.979
right substrates this time

01:09:34.359 --> 01:09:35.699
and I think uh and the and

01:09:35.739 --> 01:09:36.899
a web three centric tech

01:09:36.920 --> 01:09:38.001
stack and I think that's a

01:09:38.060 --> 01:09:40.042
really really uh discounted

01:09:40.122 --> 01:09:41.761
unlock and I think that's

01:09:41.782 --> 01:09:42.983
going to be the seeds of the new wave

01:09:43.925 --> 01:09:44.145
Yeah.

01:09:44.666 --> 01:09:44.865
So,

01:09:44.966 --> 01:09:46.387
so just talk a little bit more about

01:09:46.467 --> 01:09:48.489
tipster, but, and it's a tipster dot bot.

01:09:48.850 --> 01:09:49.411
I've used it.

01:09:49.430 --> 01:09:50.912
Uh, I think I was one of the first,

01:09:51.212 --> 01:09:52.414
first users were using it

01:09:52.435 --> 01:09:55.097
in the Dow's channel on Farcaster where,

01:09:55.118 --> 01:09:55.998
uh,

01:09:56.158 --> 01:09:58.280
anyone who's been active there has a

01:09:58.461 --> 01:09:58.962
allowance.

01:09:59.002 --> 01:09:59.703
So every day.

01:10:00.162 --> 01:10:01.283
they can tip up to a

01:10:01.323 --> 01:10:02.963
thousand quote unquote DAOs

01:10:03.083 --> 01:10:03.944
with the dollar sign.

01:10:04.685 --> 01:10:05.666
And there's no promise,

01:10:05.706 --> 01:10:07.287
it's a pure experiment, right?

01:10:07.327 --> 01:10:08.967
There's no promise as to

01:10:09.007 --> 01:10:11.350
what these points might one day mean.

01:10:11.789 --> 01:10:13.171
But the assumption is that

01:10:13.310 --> 01:10:15.393
it'll be a signal that's used one day

01:10:16.052 --> 01:10:17.373
if and when and I think the

01:10:17.413 --> 01:10:18.734
assumption is always when

01:10:18.833 --> 01:10:20.635
even if it's a long time from now,

01:10:21.456 --> 01:10:22.975
we end up needing to put

01:10:23.036 --> 01:10:23.877
some kind of structured

01:10:23.917 --> 01:10:25.016
governance in place because

01:10:25.056 --> 01:10:26.518
things start to get to to

01:10:27.037 --> 01:10:28.359
we start to achieve scale

01:10:28.519 --> 01:10:29.458
and it's too hard to just

01:10:29.899 --> 01:10:31.859
run things manually and or

01:10:31.880 --> 01:10:33.161
this is not values aligned.

01:10:33.680 --> 01:10:35.521
So you know, we're starting to signal

01:10:37.403 --> 01:10:38.443
this point system.

01:10:38.983 --> 01:10:39.262
Anyways,

01:10:39.283 --> 01:10:40.604
just tell us a little more about Tipster.

01:10:40.623 --> 01:10:41.923
What's the overall pitch?

01:10:42.224 --> 01:10:42.963
How should people think

01:10:43.003 --> 01:10:44.244
about it and when they

01:10:44.265 --> 01:10:45.064
might want to use it for

01:10:45.085 --> 01:10:46.045
their own communities?

01:10:46.965 --> 01:10:47.345
Yeah,

01:10:47.425 --> 01:10:50.506
so tipster.bot is inspired by what

01:10:50.546 --> 01:10:52.305
was happening with Dgen, Hire,

01:10:52.365 --> 01:10:53.046
and many of the other

01:10:53.087 --> 01:10:54.546
tokens that were being

01:10:54.926 --> 01:10:56.367
token tipping games that

01:10:56.407 --> 01:10:57.728
were occurring on Farcaster.

01:10:57.787 --> 01:10:58.728
So communities would form,

01:10:59.351 --> 01:11:01.511
And then they would start to

01:11:01.912 --> 01:11:03.672
show that they appreciated

01:11:03.712 --> 01:11:05.432
the value others were contributing.

01:11:05.453 --> 01:11:06.432
So in the case of Dgen,

01:11:06.573 --> 01:11:08.194
your content on Farcaster,

01:11:08.613 --> 01:11:10.613
it will tip you Dgen for great content.

01:11:11.795 --> 01:11:13.375
And it was set up so that

01:11:13.454 --> 01:11:14.675
those who had been there

01:11:14.835 --> 01:11:16.654
and embodied the vibe of Farcaster,

01:11:16.755 --> 01:11:18.515
aka the OG accounts,

01:11:18.935 --> 01:11:19.975
were given tipping allowance.

01:11:20.275 --> 01:11:20.735
And so you have this

01:11:20.775 --> 01:11:22.176
immediately decentralized

01:11:22.237 --> 01:11:24.636
emissions of a proto-token.

01:11:24.856 --> 01:11:25.997
Because it wasn't even on-chain.

01:11:26.176 --> 01:11:27.597
It's like points in the same way,

01:11:27.957 --> 01:11:29.037
but unlike points.

01:11:29.596 --> 01:11:30.818
It wasn't a centralized

01:11:30.877 --> 01:11:32.099
authority like a DeFi

01:11:32.118 --> 01:11:33.359
protocol deciding who gets

01:11:33.420 --> 01:11:34.360
points and why.

01:11:35.341 --> 01:11:36.382
It was the community from

01:11:36.422 --> 01:11:38.264
day zero being able to decide.

01:11:38.444 --> 01:11:39.525
The community that was already there,

01:11:39.626 --> 01:11:40.947
the OG posters who knew

01:11:41.027 --> 01:11:42.247
good content when they saw

01:11:42.287 --> 01:11:43.708
it and wanted to tip others

01:11:43.748 --> 01:11:44.649
and encourage others to

01:11:44.689 --> 01:11:45.610
grow the community.

01:11:45.990 --> 01:11:46.931
And so that's what tokens

01:11:46.992 --> 01:11:47.731
are really good at.

01:11:47.752 --> 01:11:49.033
In this case, it's Prototoken.

01:11:49.854 --> 01:11:51.675
And then this produces the

01:11:51.755 --> 01:11:53.076
opportunity for progressive

01:11:53.136 --> 01:11:55.476
airdrops of the actual tokens.

01:11:55.537 --> 01:11:57.498
And eventually, you know,

01:11:58.059 --> 01:12:00.399
Degen becomes an L3 on base

01:12:00.520 --> 01:12:01.860
and a token and a whole

01:12:01.881 --> 01:12:03.042
token ecosystem and has

01:12:03.101 --> 01:12:04.722
inspired lots of others to

01:12:04.762 --> 01:12:05.203
go and do this.

01:12:05.243 --> 01:12:06.623
And so tipster.bot comes

01:12:06.663 --> 01:12:08.404
from that inspiration and

01:12:08.444 --> 01:12:09.786
says it's more fun

01:12:10.341 --> 01:12:11.703
when you democratize this

01:12:11.783 --> 01:12:12.884
beyond just those who can

01:12:12.923 --> 01:12:14.645
develop code and build

01:12:14.685 --> 01:12:16.426
their own bot and solution.

01:12:16.606 --> 01:12:18.149
And because that is a barrier to entry.

01:12:18.168 --> 01:12:19.329
So tipster.bot just means

01:12:19.350 --> 01:12:20.551
that any community can come

01:12:20.591 --> 01:12:22.572
together on Firecaster and

01:12:22.612 --> 01:12:23.853
play a tipping game to

01:12:23.893 --> 01:12:24.974
bootstrap their community

01:12:25.494 --> 01:12:26.796
and signal what they're

01:12:26.836 --> 01:12:28.516
finding value and give

01:12:28.556 --> 01:12:29.717
tipping allowance to those

01:12:29.757 --> 01:12:31.539
who have already provided

01:12:31.600 --> 01:12:33.921
value and thus start to

01:12:33.981 --> 01:12:35.743
create a reputational marker,

01:12:36.203 --> 01:12:37.444
which could be used

01:12:38.112 --> 01:12:40.072
in future on-chain games,

01:12:40.131 --> 01:12:41.813
be it dropping a token and

01:12:41.872 --> 01:12:42.972
establishing governance.

01:12:43.132 --> 01:12:44.672
And I think where I want to

01:12:44.752 --> 01:12:46.234
see this go and why

01:12:46.274 --> 01:12:48.073
tipster.bot and these degen

01:12:48.373 --> 01:12:49.293
tipping games were so

01:12:49.394 --> 01:12:50.694
interesting to me is that

01:12:50.774 --> 01:12:51.935
governable spaces thing

01:12:51.954 --> 01:12:52.994
that we discussed earlier.

01:12:54.255 --> 01:12:55.756
We're playing with it, as you mentioned,

01:12:55.855 --> 01:12:58.796
in the DAOs channel over on Firecaster.

01:12:58.975 --> 01:13:00.077
And it's because we're

01:13:00.136 --> 01:13:01.577
creating a space that may

01:13:01.676 --> 01:13:04.837
need communal governance in the future.

01:13:05.358 --> 01:13:06.417
But right now it doesn't.

01:13:07.051 --> 01:13:10.773
but we need to prepare to know who is here,

01:13:11.172 --> 01:13:12.953
who helped make this space what it is.

01:13:13.753 --> 01:13:15.335
And through a tipping game,

01:13:15.795 --> 01:13:17.176
we can start to have signal

01:13:17.235 --> 01:13:18.515
along the way of what was

01:13:18.576 --> 01:13:20.796
valued as we as a community grow.

01:13:21.438 --> 01:13:22.198
And that gives the

01:13:22.297 --> 01:13:23.238
opportunity as the

01:13:23.297 --> 01:13:25.198
affordances come on to

01:13:25.319 --> 01:13:26.600
further decentralize

01:13:27.180 --> 01:13:28.680
uh the governance of a space

01:13:29.001 --> 01:13:30.981
like this uh and connect it

01:13:31.122 --> 01:13:33.984
to you know web3 assets not

01:13:34.043 --> 01:13:35.663
unlike the recent uh

01:13:35.743 --> 01:13:38.666
farcaster channels um uh

01:13:38.786 --> 01:13:40.127
protocolization um and

01:13:40.186 --> 01:13:41.327
decentralization they've

01:13:41.346 --> 01:13:42.768
been adding in the ability

01:13:42.847 --> 01:13:44.929
to have curation auto mod

01:13:44.969 --> 01:13:46.189
has been building bots that

01:13:46.210 --> 01:13:46.970
allow you to create

01:13:48.271 --> 01:13:49.412
moderation rule sets,

01:13:49.493 --> 01:13:51.976
and those can be driven by token rules.

01:13:52.016 --> 01:13:53.198
And so you can start to

01:13:53.219 --> 01:13:54.300
connect the dots to see

01:13:54.359 --> 01:13:56.342
that there's an opportunity for,

01:13:57.425 --> 01:13:58.045
through something like

01:13:58.086 --> 01:13:59.887
tipster.bot and tips saying

01:14:00.148 --> 01:14:01.850
who should be governing

01:14:02.480 --> 01:14:03.101
And then there's the

01:14:03.162 --> 01:14:04.243
opportunity for the space

01:14:04.302 --> 01:14:05.283
itself and the value it

01:14:05.323 --> 01:14:07.204
provides of like curating

01:14:07.604 --> 01:14:09.266
which posts should show or

01:14:09.327 --> 01:14:10.467
be pushed to the top of the

01:14:10.528 --> 01:14:14.291
fold is a power that is key

01:14:14.331 --> 01:14:15.372
in governing that space.

01:14:15.391 --> 01:14:18.354
And that today is somewhat

01:14:18.413 --> 01:14:21.216
centralized often on

01:14:21.277 --> 01:14:22.877
forecaster spaces to those

01:14:22.917 --> 01:14:24.059
who were the channel creators,

01:14:24.378 --> 01:14:26.261
AKA the Reddit model thing.

01:14:26.301 --> 01:14:27.622
So this kind of ties all the

01:14:27.662 --> 01:14:28.122
things we've been

01:14:28.141 --> 01:14:30.203
discussing today together, I think.

01:14:31.403 --> 01:14:32.344
And so I'm excited about

01:14:32.363 --> 01:14:33.704
tipster.bot as the front

01:14:33.904 --> 01:14:34.865
edge and these tipping

01:14:34.905 --> 01:14:36.887
games as the front edge of

01:14:38.470 --> 01:14:40.332
preparing for governable spaces.

01:14:41.551 --> 01:14:42.032
Interesting.

01:14:42.313 --> 01:14:43.412
Yeah.

01:14:43.872 --> 01:14:45.274
What about in terms of what

01:14:45.293 --> 01:14:47.354
you're seeing in this space?

01:14:48.055 --> 01:14:50.935
So we've mentioned some

01:14:50.975 --> 01:14:52.077
tools you're working on

01:14:52.157 --> 01:14:53.818
that are really exciting, including Hats,

01:14:53.917 --> 01:14:54.997
Sobol, Tipster.

01:14:55.538 --> 01:14:56.899
We mentioned Snapshot.

01:14:57.099 --> 01:14:58.140
I mentioned Dow House,

01:14:58.260 --> 01:15:00.421
which is just the front end for Moloch,

01:15:00.461 --> 01:15:01.780
which you mentioned a couple of times.

01:15:03.381 --> 01:15:06.002
Are there other tools that

01:15:06.023 --> 01:15:07.524
are exciting right now to

01:15:07.583 --> 01:15:09.805
you because you see either

01:15:09.845 --> 01:15:11.265
they've come a long way or

01:15:11.305 --> 01:15:12.666
they're new and exciting or

01:15:12.706 --> 01:15:14.827
just that you know that

01:15:14.987 --> 01:15:15.868
there are a lot of good

01:15:15.887 --> 01:15:17.368
people working on or just

01:15:17.448 --> 01:15:18.488
enough good people working

01:15:18.569 --> 01:15:19.408
on the tool and therefore

01:15:19.429 --> 01:15:20.390
you're excited to see what

01:15:20.430 --> 01:15:21.829
they might come out with in

01:15:21.850 --> 01:15:22.490
the near future?

01:15:22.511 --> 01:15:24.270
Yeah,

01:15:24.350 --> 01:15:27.573
so I've become nounish curious and

01:15:27.613 --> 01:15:28.512
I've seen some interesting

01:15:28.573 --> 01:15:29.974
experiments over the years in nouns.

01:15:30.722 --> 01:15:33.905
Um, it's on chain, uh, and, uh,

01:15:33.966 --> 01:15:36.748
some of the most recent, uh, noun, um,

01:15:36.788 --> 01:15:37.710
experiments that I've found

01:15:37.810 --> 01:15:39.070
fascinating or now niche

01:15:39.110 --> 01:15:41.693
experiments are burbs, um,

01:15:42.173 --> 01:15:43.595
and grounds grounds Dow.

01:15:43.836 --> 01:15:45.796
And it's because they're, they're mixing,

01:15:45.817 --> 01:15:48.500
uh, an ERC 20 token with.

01:15:50.251 --> 01:15:53.012
Um, the, the nouns NFT, um, governance,

01:15:53.233 --> 01:15:54.213
you know, model, um,

01:15:54.333 --> 01:15:56.194
allowing for a little more granularity.

01:15:56.956 --> 01:15:59.136
Um, and so I'm curious, uh,

01:15:59.237 --> 01:16:01.198
sort of about that, uh, experiment.

01:16:01.998 --> 01:16:02.899
And, uh,

01:16:03.119 --> 01:16:04.761
I think I'm also really interested

01:16:05.001 --> 01:16:05.981
in charm verse.

01:16:06.903 --> 01:16:07.922
Um, I think,

01:16:08.042 --> 01:16:09.404
I think charm verse has been

01:16:10.225 --> 01:16:11.725
trying to find ways to have

01:16:11.985 --> 01:16:13.127
web three at the core.

01:16:14.260 --> 01:16:15.661
as they're building

01:16:16.140 --> 01:16:17.362
knowledge-based management

01:16:17.601 --> 01:16:19.904
and what I call pre-governance,

01:16:19.963 --> 01:16:20.944
that space where you make

01:16:21.024 --> 01:16:24.046
decisions socially before

01:16:24.105 --> 01:16:26.068
you move into on-chain

01:16:26.847 --> 01:16:29.090
voting and an on-chain

01:16:30.409 --> 01:16:32.011
signature of one's comment

01:16:32.131 --> 01:16:33.171
regarding one's vote.

01:16:33.292 --> 01:16:35.292
And so I think having those

01:16:35.332 --> 01:16:37.375
kinds of off-chain spaces

01:16:38.274 --> 01:16:39.275
They're fascinating to me.

01:16:39.416 --> 01:16:42.578
And I think Farcaster itself as a protocol,

01:16:42.738 --> 01:16:44.439
so not Warpcast the client,

01:16:44.479 --> 01:16:46.180
but Farcaster the protocol

01:16:46.662 --> 01:16:49.064
is massively fascinating to me because,

01:16:49.844 --> 01:16:50.765
as I mentioned earlier,

01:16:50.784 --> 01:16:52.065
one of the biggest friction

01:16:52.145 --> 01:16:54.207
points of the previous

01:16:54.287 --> 01:16:56.429
cycle was just how much is living in,

01:16:56.448 --> 01:16:58.610
you know, sort of Web2 backends.

01:16:59.506 --> 01:17:01.386
And what I think Farcaster

01:17:01.426 --> 01:17:02.606
protocol has done is they

01:17:02.646 --> 01:17:04.387
created a clever way to

01:17:04.427 --> 01:17:06.847
have signed off-chain data,

01:17:07.028 --> 01:17:09.109
AKA your messages, your likes, et cetera,

01:17:09.649 --> 01:17:11.590
and that you're signing those,

01:17:12.390 --> 01:17:14.390
and they're cryptographically verifiable,

01:17:14.490 --> 01:17:15.810
but they're not on-chain.

01:17:16.251 --> 01:17:17.192
And I find that really

01:17:17.252 --> 01:17:18.532
fascinating because it then

01:17:18.652 --> 01:17:20.613
does have a relationship to

01:17:20.632 --> 01:17:23.833
your on-chain identity, the Farcaster ID,

01:17:23.974 --> 01:17:26.274
and your on-chain addresses

01:17:26.333 --> 01:17:27.875
that you've run a signed

01:17:28.641 --> 01:17:30.804
um, you know, signing ceremony of signing,

01:17:30.844 --> 01:17:30.984
Hey,

01:17:31.064 --> 01:17:32.083
I own this address and I'm

01:17:32.123 --> 01:17:33.305
associating it to this.

01:17:33.905 --> 01:17:34.725
Um, and so that,

01:17:35.046 --> 01:17:36.886
that is something that I

01:17:36.967 --> 01:17:38.387
was hoping for last cycle

01:17:38.427 --> 01:17:39.889
was to see more protocols

01:17:40.329 --> 01:17:41.751
that are graphs in nature, um,

01:17:42.831 --> 01:17:43.992
that show the relationships

01:17:44.051 --> 01:17:45.533
between things and bridge

01:17:45.592 --> 01:17:47.533
the off chain to the, uh,

01:17:47.573 --> 01:17:48.335
the off chain to the

01:17:48.475 --> 01:17:52.898
on-chain world and allow for a richer, um,

01:17:53.097 --> 01:17:54.338
very web three,

01:17:54.886 --> 01:17:56.029
clients to emerge.

01:17:56.090 --> 01:17:57.994
And so I think my greatest

01:17:58.034 --> 01:17:59.878
fascination fascination right now is what

01:18:02.055 --> 01:18:03.716
social graph protocols,

01:18:03.876 --> 01:18:05.216
signed off chain data

01:18:05.296 --> 01:18:06.117
solutions and their

01:18:06.157 --> 01:18:07.856
bridging to on-chain worlds

01:18:08.797 --> 01:18:10.198
are possible in this cycle

01:18:10.417 --> 01:18:11.998
and what relationship will

01:18:12.038 --> 01:18:14.439
those have to decentralized

01:18:14.500 --> 01:18:16.600
autonomous organizations because they are,

01:18:16.761 --> 01:18:17.780
as I mentioned with my

01:18:17.820 --> 01:18:18.902
experiences in Sobel,

01:18:19.261 --> 01:18:20.181
just a graph of

01:18:20.261 --> 01:18:21.523
relationships between

01:18:21.882 --> 01:18:23.783
people and their

01:18:23.863 --> 01:18:26.845
marketplace interactions as they do work.

01:18:27.385 --> 01:18:29.346
together in that marketplace of work.

01:18:29.747 --> 01:18:32.090
And so that's where I'm

01:18:32.569 --> 01:18:34.032
seeing things going and I'm

01:18:34.072 --> 01:18:36.113
excited to participate building into.

01:18:37.337 --> 01:18:37.537
Yeah,

01:18:37.618 --> 01:18:38.658
is there anything else you'd want to

01:18:38.698 --> 01:18:39.899
share about your vision for

01:18:39.918 --> 01:18:40.899
the future of DAOs?

01:18:41.039 --> 01:18:42.560
So if you look forward,

01:18:43.121 --> 01:18:44.560
maybe a whole cycle,

01:18:45.261 --> 01:18:46.481
let's say either we're at

01:18:46.521 --> 01:18:47.462
the beginning of the bull,

01:18:47.483 --> 01:18:49.462
but it's got another year or two left,

01:18:49.563 --> 01:18:51.064
or maybe we never even hit

01:18:51.104 --> 01:18:52.324
the bull market and the

01:18:52.364 --> 01:18:53.944
next one's not coming for a few years.

01:18:54.626 --> 01:18:55.185
Either way,

01:18:55.945 --> 01:18:57.067
what's your vision for where

01:18:57.106 --> 01:18:59.047
DAOs are going to be in one, two,

01:18:59.188 --> 01:18:59.768
three years,

01:19:00.307 --> 01:19:01.708
assuming we do have another

01:19:02.069 --> 01:19:02.988
bull run in crypto?

01:19:04.930 --> 01:19:05.791
Yeah, so...

01:19:07.275 --> 01:19:08.256
Last cycle,

01:19:09.676 --> 01:19:12.078
DAOs showed that they are a

01:19:12.278 --> 01:19:17.079
reasonable way to invest safely.

01:19:17.461 --> 01:19:19.020
So they created investment DAOs.

01:19:19.521 --> 01:19:21.421
Investment DAOs worked last cycle,

01:19:21.462 --> 01:19:24.083
in my opinion, and they continue to work.

01:19:24.764 --> 01:19:26.664
And so I feel as though the

01:19:26.805 --> 01:19:29.025
innovation this cycle is

01:19:29.046 --> 01:19:30.426
going to be social DAOs

01:19:31.127 --> 01:19:32.506
that actually work.

01:19:34.426 --> 01:19:36.627
And so I think that we will

01:19:36.646 --> 01:19:39.528
have social DAOs where we

01:19:39.587 --> 01:19:41.047
will be doing mostly social

01:19:41.108 --> 01:19:44.649
things like the fans voting

01:19:44.890 --> 01:19:46.529
on X and feeling like

01:19:46.550 --> 01:19:47.411
they're participating in

01:19:47.451 --> 01:19:49.190
the story and us

01:19:49.690 --> 01:19:50.952
progressing towards these

01:19:50.992 --> 01:19:51.971
governable spaces.

01:19:52.051 --> 01:19:53.033
This is so clearly,

01:19:53.052 --> 01:19:54.292
I need to check this book

01:19:54.313 --> 01:19:55.634
because it's so clearly in

01:19:55.673 --> 01:19:56.734
the zeitgeist right now.

01:19:57.391 --> 01:19:58.552
And that I think is what's

01:19:58.592 --> 01:19:59.614
happening right now.

01:20:00.114 --> 01:20:02.277
And I think that this is the,

01:20:02.877 --> 01:20:04.479
if I keep zooming out into the future,

01:20:04.500 --> 01:20:05.841
I think these are the seeds

01:20:06.721 --> 01:20:08.583
on which we will have all

01:20:08.623 --> 01:20:12.708
the key sort of connections,

01:20:12.929 --> 01:20:16.372
be it protocols and new clients emerging.

01:20:17.543 --> 01:20:19.688
that are entwined so richly

01:20:19.807 --> 01:20:22.051
with the social protocols

01:20:22.112 --> 01:20:23.373
and the social attributes

01:20:23.895 --> 01:20:25.657
of things that we will end

01:20:25.818 --> 01:20:27.680
up in the following cycle

01:20:28.399 --> 01:20:30.600
finally capable of doing the

01:20:30.640 --> 01:20:31.702
types of organizations

01:20:31.742 --> 01:20:32.483
we've been dreaming of

01:20:32.542 --> 01:20:34.645
doing from the beginning, you know, the,

01:20:35.064 --> 01:20:36.726
the,

01:20:37.006 --> 01:20:39.668
the replacing what happens at the

01:20:39.729 --> 01:20:43.032
club and not, you know, cooperative,

01:20:43.072 --> 01:20:45.194
not-for-profit corporate

01:20:45.835 --> 01:20:47.076
enterprise venturing and,

01:20:48.155 --> 01:20:51.917
You can see that higher stake,

01:20:52.037 --> 01:20:53.018
higher value,

01:20:53.137 --> 01:20:55.557
higher problematic domain if

01:20:55.618 --> 01:20:57.878
captured is possible.

01:20:57.899 --> 01:20:58.618
And I think there's one

01:20:58.679 --> 01:21:00.479
piece that I know you're working on,

01:21:00.920 --> 01:21:03.440
which is that, sure,

01:21:03.581 --> 01:21:04.341
it's important to have

01:21:04.381 --> 01:21:05.780
these off-chain social

01:21:07.282 --> 01:21:07.942
things become more

01:21:07.981 --> 01:21:08.921
cryptographically

01:21:08.981 --> 01:21:10.103
verifiable and connected to

01:21:10.122 --> 01:21:10.962
the on-chain world.

01:21:11.023 --> 01:21:13.063
But these two worlds also

01:21:13.103 --> 01:21:13.844
need to become more

01:21:13.904 --> 01:21:15.323
connected to the real world.

01:21:16.149 --> 01:21:17.051
and doing the work that

01:21:17.070 --> 01:21:18.051
you're doing and thinking

01:21:18.112 --> 01:21:20.914
about how we uh enmesh in a

01:21:20.994 --> 01:21:22.336
meaningful and productive

01:21:22.416 --> 01:21:23.898
way the traditional state

01:21:23.917 --> 01:21:25.099
nation and legal systems

01:21:25.219 --> 01:21:27.041
while they are the um you

01:21:27.060 --> 01:21:29.021
know sort of backbone um of

01:21:29.061 --> 01:21:30.103
how we operate and

01:21:30.143 --> 01:21:30.844
enmeshing them in

01:21:30.904 --> 01:21:31.704
meaningful and productive

01:21:31.744 --> 01:21:33.947
ways into um this emerging

01:21:34.167 --> 01:21:36.829
social um and and on-chain

01:21:36.869 --> 01:21:38.992
domain that triad

01:21:39.551 --> 01:21:41.213
feels so necessary to pull

01:21:41.253 --> 01:21:42.814
off that thing in the in

01:21:42.835 --> 01:21:43.836
the following cycles and

01:21:43.876 --> 01:21:45.497
subsequent cycles that that

01:21:45.516 --> 01:21:46.557
I'm envisioning which is

01:21:46.898 --> 01:21:47.998
you know these highly

01:21:48.078 --> 01:21:50.161
productive full-scale like

01:21:50.381 --> 01:21:52.143
enterprise level you know

01:21:52.222 --> 01:21:54.444
venture um happening

01:21:54.864 --> 01:21:55.685
productively and

01:21:55.725 --> 01:21:59.649
efficiently on uh on chain

01:22:00.489 --> 01:22:01.730
and uh as a dow

01:22:02.751 --> 01:22:04.591
And that I also,

01:22:04.792 --> 01:22:06.372
you can see that at that point in time,

01:22:06.412 --> 01:22:07.391
if you keep zooming out,

01:22:07.431 --> 01:22:08.353
I get excited about a

01:22:09.672 --> 01:22:11.134
global talent marketplace.

01:22:11.554 --> 01:22:12.894
Part of what brought me to

01:22:12.913 --> 01:22:14.034
this space that I haven't

01:22:14.114 --> 01:22:16.715
sort of described is that I

01:22:16.895 --> 01:22:18.676
love moving around.

01:22:19.648 --> 01:22:21.948
Um, I, I have, uh, uh,

01:22:22.069 --> 01:22:23.048
I guess later in life I've

01:22:23.088 --> 01:22:23.988
come to understand in a

01:22:24.029 --> 01:22:25.149
self-diagnosed way that I

01:22:25.168 --> 01:22:27.310
have ADHD and I like to

01:22:27.350 --> 01:22:28.189
move around and it's a

01:22:28.289 --> 01:22:30.170
superpower for me to be in

01:22:30.631 --> 01:22:32.751
multiple spaces at once.

01:22:32.951 --> 01:22:34.051
And then having that

01:22:34.150 --> 01:22:35.851
percolate in my being and,

01:22:36.072 --> 01:22:37.231
and then applying it in

01:22:37.271 --> 01:22:39.171
those multiple spaces, um,

01:22:39.212 --> 01:22:40.613
and feeding myself and

01:22:40.653 --> 01:22:41.573
feeding it back out.

01:22:41.653 --> 01:22:43.632
And that, that is where I thrive.

01:22:44.293 --> 01:22:45.234
And I imagine, uh,

01:22:46.738 --> 01:22:47.939
what DAOs are setting up

01:22:47.979 --> 01:22:49.520
when they get to that sort of like,

01:22:51.020 --> 01:22:51.360
you know,

01:22:51.480 --> 01:22:52.841
level that we're describing here,

01:22:53.542 --> 01:22:54.242
that you end up with a

01:22:54.341 --> 01:22:58.144
global talent marketplace, you know,

01:22:58.323 --> 01:22:59.824
on the perfect rails for

01:22:59.904 --> 01:23:00.966
running a marketplace as

01:23:01.006 --> 01:23:02.445
shown by DeFi already.

01:23:04.127 --> 01:23:06.307
And that this fully digital

01:23:07.349 --> 01:23:08.829
high liquidity talent

01:23:08.869 --> 01:23:10.229
marketplace will be available.

01:23:10.730 --> 01:23:11.810
And through remote work,

01:23:13.032 --> 01:23:14.091
which has already happened

01:23:14.152 --> 01:23:15.132
in previous cycle,

01:23:16.046 --> 01:23:17.507
we will be able to plug into that.

01:23:17.528 --> 01:23:18.389
And as individuals,

01:23:18.408 --> 01:23:19.469
that could be a really

01:23:19.548 --> 01:23:20.710
fulfilling way to

01:23:20.750 --> 01:23:23.091
participate in the world.

01:23:23.572 --> 01:23:25.413
And that ideally,

01:23:25.594 --> 01:23:26.854
if we also solve some of

01:23:26.875 --> 01:23:28.275
the centralization problems

01:23:28.296 --> 01:23:31.016
surrounding AI and the data

01:23:31.056 --> 01:23:31.997
sovereignty issues,

01:23:32.238 --> 01:23:36.341
which I think crypto is working on too,

01:23:36.900 --> 01:23:38.042
we could start to actually

01:23:38.082 --> 01:23:41.805
work in fun ways at a DAO level scale

01:23:43.313 --> 01:23:45.094
where the relationship that

01:23:45.175 --> 01:23:46.576
honestly I have sometimes

01:23:46.636 --> 01:23:47.577
with the AI that I'm

01:23:47.617 --> 01:23:49.118
working with in my workflow,

01:23:49.519 --> 01:23:51.520
it's bloody fun and it

01:23:51.560 --> 01:23:52.501
doesn't feel threatening.

01:23:52.560 --> 01:23:54.182
It feels exciting as a creator.

01:23:56.235 --> 01:23:58.475
But if we can harness this

01:23:58.936 --> 01:24:02.618
in ways that don't erode

01:24:03.978 --> 01:24:05.099
our ability to participate

01:24:05.118 --> 01:24:07.199
as humans in a way that

01:24:07.439 --> 01:24:08.760
preserves our sovereignty,

01:24:09.279 --> 01:24:10.560
we could start to bring AI

01:24:10.860 --> 01:24:12.301
into DAOs in ways that I

01:24:12.341 --> 01:24:13.421
can't even dream of yet.

01:24:13.502 --> 01:24:15.802
But they would be great at

01:24:15.882 --> 01:24:17.103
doing certain jobs that we

01:24:17.182 --> 01:24:20.885
often today centralize into committees.

01:24:22.005 --> 01:24:23.185
like we were discussing earlier,

01:24:23.265 --> 01:24:26.127
like the security committee, et cetera,

01:24:26.148 --> 01:24:30.050
or coordination prompts to

01:24:30.210 --> 01:24:31.751
us as humans to participate

01:24:31.791 --> 01:24:33.292
in spots that match our

01:24:33.311 --> 01:24:34.252
skills and passions.

01:24:35.969 --> 01:24:38.551
Auto GPT plays doubt, for example.

01:24:39.270 --> 01:24:41.572
I think that there's an

01:24:41.731 --> 01:24:43.432
opportunity for there to be

01:24:43.453 --> 01:24:45.453
a really fun collaboration

01:24:45.573 --> 01:24:48.435
between human agents and AI

01:24:48.536 --> 01:24:51.197
agents to build things that

01:24:51.237 --> 01:24:52.438
we haven't even dreamed of.

01:24:52.837 --> 01:24:54.059
And I think that's where

01:24:54.078 --> 01:24:56.180
things are headed if we do this right.

01:24:56.926 --> 01:24:58.127
And I think there's a lot of

01:24:58.167 --> 01:24:59.708
things that could go wrong along the way.

01:24:59.729 --> 01:25:01.952
And I hope that we learn

01:25:01.971 --> 01:25:03.252
those lessons quickly and

01:25:03.314 --> 01:25:04.395
don't paint ourselves into

01:25:04.435 --> 01:25:05.636
a corner where we can't get

01:25:05.676 --> 01:25:06.877
out from it in a timely manner.

01:25:08.840 --> 01:25:09.480
It's by the way,

01:25:09.560 --> 01:25:11.002
another way the word

01:25:11.082 --> 01:25:12.684
autonomous might apply to

01:25:12.743 --> 01:25:15.146
DAOs is having autonomous agents.

01:25:15.912 --> 01:25:18.173
you know, playing roles in our DAOs.

01:25:18.953 --> 01:25:20.033
It could end up being a

01:25:20.094 --> 01:25:22.154
major element of DAOs that

01:25:22.175 --> 01:25:23.315
for the first time we have

01:25:24.036 --> 01:25:25.235
organizations that are

01:25:25.315 --> 01:25:30.497
partly or completely AI driven.

01:25:30.518 --> 01:25:32.179
Yeah.

01:25:32.639 --> 01:25:32.838
Yeah.

01:25:32.859 --> 01:25:34.300
I think it's going to be a lot of fun.

01:25:35.439 --> 01:25:35.979
Yeah, for sure.

01:25:36.000 --> 01:25:36.920
I think that the future of

01:25:36.960 --> 01:25:38.400
work is actually the future of play.

01:25:38.769 --> 01:25:41.530
When I mean that abundance mentality,

01:25:41.770 --> 01:25:43.492
that global talent

01:25:43.532 --> 01:25:45.413
marketplace that has high

01:25:45.453 --> 01:25:48.175
liquidity for opportunity

01:25:48.815 --> 01:25:50.037
to participate in and the

01:25:50.096 --> 01:25:51.176
right value exchange to

01:25:51.217 --> 01:25:52.417
meet my needs personally,

01:25:52.958 --> 01:25:54.260
if that is possible,

01:25:54.479 --> 01:25:56.301
that in itself is the best,

01:25:56.921 --> 01:25:58.922
best setup for the future

01:25:58.943 --> 01:26:00.404
of work not to be work anymore.

01:26:00.503 --> 01:26:01.384
It actually is play.

01:26:01.805 --> 01:26:02.725
I get to play with my

01:26:02.765 --> 01:26:04.246
friends all over the world,

01:26:04.426 --> 01:26:06.047
building neat stuff that

01:26:06.127 --> 01:26:07.769
feels like it has value and impact.

01:26:08.615 --> 01:26:10.716
And to do it along with and

01:26:10.777 --> 01:26:14.457
play with intelligences that, frankly,

01:26:14.497 --> 01:26:15.637
will stretch our own.

01:26:16.498 --> 01:26:17.519
Yeah, that's awesome.

01:26:18.019 --> 01:26:18.338
All right.

01:26:18.599 --> 01:26:18.918
Well,

01:26:19.198 --> 01:26:20.420
that's going to be it for today's

01:26:20.460 --> 01:26:21.020
episode.

01:26:21.739 --> 01:26:22.119
BP,

01:26:22.159 --> 01:26:23.661
if you want to share any closing

01:26:23.701 --> 01:26:24.421
thoughts you didn't have a

01:26:24.461 --> 01:26:25.240
chance to get to,

01:26:25.502 --> 01:26:26.742
and then let us know where

01:26:26.761 --> 01:26:28.181
we can find you and your

01:26:28.221 --> 01:26:29.783
projects on the web or on social.

01:26:31.310 --> 01:26:33.231
Yeah,

01:26:33.351 --> 01:26:36.273
I think I've shared a lot and feel full.

01:26:36.432 --> 01:26:38.753
And I think you can find me,

01:26:39.213 --> 01:26:41.354
if any of these topics or

01:26:42.654 --> 01:26:43.836
solutions that we've been

01:26:43.855 --> 01:26:45.956
building at Sobel and

01:26:46.015 --> 01:26:47.256
Tipster are interesting.

01:26:47.997 --> 01:26:50.557
I'm bpetes.eth or bpetes on

01:26:50.797 --> 01:26:52.198
pretty much every social

01:26:52.238 --> 01:26:53.498
platform that you'll find

01:26:53.538 --> 01:26:54.819
crypto folks congregating on.

01:26:54.880 --> 01:26:55.539
And I'd love to chat.

01:26:56.865 --> 01:26:57.166
Awesome.

01:26:57.246 --> 01:26:58.027
Thank you so much.

01:26:58.466 --> 01:27:02.511
And for those looking for MyDAO or for me,

01:27:02.551 --> 01:27:03.291
you can find me on

01:27:03.331 --> 01:27:04.652
Farcaster at the Thriller

01:27:04.932 --> 01:27:08.494
or Twitter slash X. I'm zero X Thriller.

01:27:08.595 --> 01:27:11.457
MyDAO is M-I-D-A-O dot org

01:27:11.557 --> 01:27:12.559
stands for Marshall Islands

01:27:12.599 --> 01:27:15.161
DAO or MyDAO DS for

01:27:15.201 --> 01:27:17.563
directory services dot eth or on Twitter.

01:27:18.382 --> 01:27:20.444
And please consider liking

01:27:20.585 --> 01:27:21.706
or leaving a review of the

01:27:21.746 --> 01:27:23.367
show wherever you are listening.

01:27:23.608 --> 01:27:24.028
Obviously,

01:27:24.047 --> 01:27:25.128
it would appreciate if anyone

01:27:25.149 --> 01:27:26.069
wants to subscribe.

01:27:26.829 --> 01:27:27.831
And just another quick ad

01:27:27.850 --> 01:27:29.152
for MyDAO before we close,

01:27:29.292 --> 01:27:30.974
we do legal entities for DAOs.

01:27:31.333 --> 01:27:32.796
We have a network of lawyers

01:27:32.895 --> 01:27:34.096
and service providers all

01:27:34.157 --> 01:27:35.057
over the world who are

01:27:35.097 --> 01:27:36.538
focused on DAOs and Web3.

01:27:36.878 --> 01:27:38.600
Happy to get anyone connected with them.

01:27:38.761 --> 01:27:40.042
Or if you yourself are a

01:27:40.122 --> 01:27:42.323
lawyer or professional service provider,

01:27:42.404 --> 01:27:43.425
please reach out about

01:27:43.465 --> 01:27:46.667
being added to our network at no cost.

01:27:46.828 --> 01:27:47.988
Again, BP,

01:27:48.048 --> 01:27:49.511
thank you so much for coming on the show.

01:27:49.551 --> 01:27:50.390
Really appreciate it.

01:27:51.613 --> 01:27:52.233
Thanks for having me, Adam.

01:27:52.252 --> 01:27:52.894
I had a lot of fun.

01:27:53.662 --> 01:27:54.083
You got it.

01:27:54.184 --> 01:27:55.185
Quick disclaimer,

01:27:55.265 --> 01:27:57.649
none of this is ever legal or tax advice.

01:27:58.390 --> 01:28:00.694
And finally, for the audience,

01:28:00.914 --> 01:28:02.296
are you thinking about starting a DAO?

01:28:02.917 --> 01:28:03.519
Just DAO it.

01:28:04.962 --> 01:28:05.382
Thanks, BP.