[00:00:00] Dan: Hello, and welcome back to we, not me, the podcast where we explore, how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond 

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. 

[00:00:15] Dan: and how the devil are you? Pia. And how is your podcasting life?

[00:00:18] Pia: Oh, it was very exciting. I do have some, um, some flashbacks coming back, Uh, these great conversations of, in thinking about things and experiences. over the years, ah, anything prompted your flashbacks or, um, 

[00:00:34] Dan: funny you say that wake up in the night. 

[00:00:37] it's sort of in a hot seller fever, dream and cold sweat. Um, yeah, it's funny you say that because these. It's really interesting because I came into this thinking how different teams on, I think that's one of the reasons why they're so challenging is that they are so different because individuals are different, you put them together and you've got that sort of difference multiplied or whatever. But actually I'm seeing some themes and certainly some things are 

[00:01:01] dredging up some old teams that I've been in, uh, both positive memories and the other kind, I would say.

[00:01:08] Pia: Oh, can you tell us, can you tell us about the other kind. 

[00:01:11] Dan: Well, the one that I care, this is probably my worst team experience. I, um, I've volunteered to, um, my, my, my daughter was in a band in the primary school in Australia and, and I volunteered to, to run the run the brand program, including running the local. Band camp as in, at once at band camp. Um, 

[00:01:34] but what I went into this and I realized that in just went a little bit wrong because when I w when I joined the previous year and it was being run by someone else, I noticed there was about 25 people sitting around drinking wine. And it was th the meetings were really long 

[00:01:50] and I 

[00:01:50] Pia: That wasn't one person doing all the work and twenty-five people drinking 

[00:01:53] Dan: Well, there was, there was, there was a bit of that. There was a little bit of that, but people would take little bits, but, but I, you know, I, I was doing a lot of traveling. I had, uh, I was working, so I wanted to keep it efficient and make sure that we delivered a great experience for the, for the 

[00:02:08] kids. So, you know, had my purpose intact, got into it and start bring the team down to a smaller unit volunteers, but didn't go out to the broader group. And, um, I got absolutely slammed 

[00:02:21] for excluding people. Apparently I was being exclusive. And, um, and in that time, Pia, I was told to F off twice. Um, so as a, as a team leaders, it's quite effective feedback, then

[00:02:35] Pia: I would be saying that they're trying to communicate 

[00:02:38] Dan: there was the, there was 

[00:02:39] Pia: is not working so 

[00:02:40] Dan: message lying in there, but it definitely made me realize. We that we have, our purposes were misaligned. People did want this thing to be slightly different from my vision for it. And I probably, um, waded in there with my, uh, size 10 boots without really checking in what was the, what was required at the team.

[00:02:58] Pia: And we make an assumption around that. Don't worry that w w you know, and it's an easy mistake. I think we've all done, one of those, but I think it just raises a really good point about getting. Your head and your heart aligned. And that's actually going to be a big, Part of our topic today. We are so lucky. to have Lucy Hovanec, who is a friend, an ex colleague and an incredibly talented in her own right. And with a long track record for all the things that she's achieved.

[00:03:32] And what we've really wanted to, talk to her about. Is understanding the purpose and the nature of it. And then how it aligns with the things that you actually do in terms of the toolkit that you use for leadership. 

[00:03:45] Lucy Hovanec, welcome to the show. Great to have you here. And, Um, let's start with the full disclosure. Uh, we have known each other for some time. I think it's nearly 20 years. Uh, I of course was in my thirties. And you were 16? No, I think you're a little older than that.

[00:04:10] Lucy: I was young. Yes. Thank you, Pia. 

[00:04:12] Pia: were young, young and impressionable. And so we'll scoot past those, um, those early UK days. Let's some, I actually wanted to start. Um, I've got one of these, you, know, freeze frame. Memories in my mind, which is your Edgecliff flat? You're at 25. I'd been working in LIW as a leadership consultant for some time and we were having a conversation about direction, purpose, vision, and we did an exercise together and I'm using some of these, a little vision cards and it was really cool. It just sticks in my mind over all of these years when your vision and your purpose landed. It, it was, I could feel it. what was it like for you? Was it you're not going to tell me it was awful, 

[00:05:05] Lucy: One of the worst nights of my life. No, I'm just joking Pia. It was, um, it actually, that night still sticks in my memory as the, not that my life fundamentally changed. And I'm not saying that because you've asked me to, I'm saying that because I genuinely. That was the night my life changed and something, a light went on inside of me that had not been on for a long, long time. So you took me through a, it was about two weeks, about three hours, I think, maybe with a glass of wine. But where you really kicked my tires around three, three questions, you asked me.

[00:05:37] The first question you asked. What is your purpose? And that was really around what I think some of the words you used were, what if you were, if you're a perfume, how would we bottle you? What would that essence look like? And I think actually, I really distinctly remember us talking through spike Milligan's purpose and how on his gravestone? It says, I told you I was sick. And I think that personifies his purpose was just, he from the grave is still making people laugh, but that's not my purpose. Uh that's. But that was your way of describing it.

[00:06:09] And then you asked me the question, what are your values? And they are the tenants by which you live your life, your non-negotiables. And we got really clear about those, which are laughter realness, discovery, and passion for me. Uh, and then we got clear about the vision too, and that was where do you want to be in the next few years?

[00:06:26] Uh, and for me, that was really around being a leader. I think some way foreign from memory. I think it was a, it was a strange little gentlemen with a funny hat on that was in the picture. But, um, 

[00:06:37] Pia: Yeah. It can be interpreted in any way that you want, but he is the Gerkey man. He regularly turns up. 

[00:06:42] Lucy: He does. He does actually end up in my life afterwards, but anyway, that's a different story. So. And coming back to the purpose though, and that, that essence of who I was, and I got very, very clear, and I think we nailed the statement there. I don't know whether you want to talk about what, what that purpose was. Maybe we can talk about that as we 

[00:06:57] Pia: well, before we do that, I think what's really interesting here is, is that we were really encouraged to. Academic qualifications to work really hard in, in organized, at work up this sort of corporate career. And this is quite a different route. You know, You'd done a lot of those, those things, you are perfectly capable, you've got great credentials, but there was something missing. And so this is kind of working from the heart inside out. So I remember. When you landed on, I want to be a pioneer that that really impacted me. And you feel it it's like when you hit a purpose, it's like the sweet spot on a tennis racket. It's effortless. It's real. And you've kind of found it. Was that what it was like for you? 

[00:07:51] Lucy: Oh, no, no question. And I think, you know, I've just taken on a massive new role in my company and, and I drew very heavily on my purpose of, of exactly that word pioneer and, and I was actually trying to weigh up in my head, whether I should even go for this job. And pioneering is what kept coming back to me and.

[00:08:08] Got stronger and stronger as my, you know, the application date got nearer and nearer. And, and that was the thing that really forced me to, to, to apply for it because it was, it is a pioneering role. And I feel that that's that's my purpose in life is to be, is to be a pioneer and also to inspire others, to be pioneers. And I think so coming back to your point around CVS, Gosh, if you'd looked at my CV at that time, my soul was dying and investment bank and that's no offense to anyone investment banking. If your purpose is around that, then go for it. But I know mine wasn't. And I'm sure the people I was working with actually would agree with me, but, yeah, it just wasn't, it wasn't aligned.

[00:08:46] To, to have that moment of clarity around who I was on this earth, was phenomenal. It was a big change in it. Yeah. It really helped me to stop thinking about my CV and my lack of whatever experience in the background, but to really focus on what I can be in alignment with that purpose into the future.

[00:09:06] Dan: I must say whenever I think about you, the word pioneer pops up in my head as well, but, um, how has, how has this sort of clarity, personal clarity helped you engage with teams and things like.

[00:09:17] Lucy: So I think it's really helped, uh, in terms of me then helping others get clear about their purpose, uh, individually, but also their purpose within a team. Um, so my career led me. Wait, I'm working with both you Dan and ups. And I was working with, um, groups of people in different 

[00:09:39] different 

[00:09:39] Pia: a pioneer 

[00:09:40] Lucy: different, I mean, far out, any more polar and pioneering work with 

[00:09:44] Pia: couldn't just stop there. 

[00:09:47] Lucy: I couldn't have a purpose on paper.

[00:09:49] No, but I, I, yeah. I was working with groups of people and we had to ensure that their purpose aligned to the projects we're working on the countries we're working in, the people that we were going to be working with. Uh, and I think that actually, when we're talking about high-performing teams, I, my observation of having worked in high-performing teams and not high-performing teams is actually when you are aligned, Greater purpose, and I'm talking at a team level because you can do this process at the team level, just as much as you can do it at an individual level. Uh, but the power of doing it at that team level means there is full alignment and that people are, um, uh, really clear about why that team actually exists and what it's trying to achieve achieve together.

[00:10:32] So. You know, uh, uh, groups that would go over to Tanzania, for example, and work with the Tanzania government. I mean, there was very much an alignment of understanding that in, uh, the vision 2020, um, for cascading leadership across the country, that we were aligned to that. And our job was to unlock leadership capability across the government, through those leadership programs. Um, so I think purpose whilst that situation was individual, it absolutely can bring to life or breathed life into teams.

[00:10:59] Pia: We used to do an exercise. I didn't really see cool life maps and that again, and Dan, you involved in this as well. And, and in Tanzania, it, it was w we, we worked there for eight years with the most extraordinary people that was, life-changing just that the whole experience, but doing those exercise around life maps, where you're charting all the different experience that you've had in life and how that has informed, you know, what your purpose is, what drives you and how you're impacting others through that? I think we were, we witnessed to some pretty amazing people and 

[00:11:36] Lucy: Oh, Krokus, I'll never forget that the, uh, oh wait, say his name because he might be listening, but up there was a gentleman there. And I remember him saying that he was from a family of 40 and I'm a 25 year old, white, Anglo, Saxon, Ozzie woman coming in knowing, hang on a sec. Sorry. Did you say. And he said no, 40. And I said, oh 14. And we literally wrote one for up on that. And he said, no. And he ran up and changed it and wrote four zero. And, and, uh, yeah, that to me. And I said 40, and he said, yes, you know what my, I had, um, my father who had many, many wives and many, many children. And I think that actually again, told me when we're bringing a team of people into, uh a different culture, for example, How clear you need to need to be around what you're bringing into that conversation and any preconceived ideas or, uh, your own values that may be different to someone else's values to be really cognizant of that, know who you are, know who you're bringing into the team. And then also know who you're bringing into a cultural context that's very different to yours.

[00:12:39] Dan: I must say that my abiding memory of that, that life maps exercise in Tanzania was how littered that life maps were with little crosses, which symbolized deaths that people had along the way. And you realize, whoa, how privileged we all are to have so few of those actually relatively, but, so loosely this pioneering spirit where just tell our listener a little bit about the journey that sort of took you on where, in terms of your sort of life journey and their teams you've worked in, just give us a little vignette of that. Could you.

[00:13:10] Lucy: Sure. So, so vignette hub, I've been very privileged to, um, uh, after working with YouTube now, just checking to work with you to, and to be working into east Africa, into Germany. I remember standing, watching a band to go past with, um, Shoots and fast thinking croakies with, with a group of Australians working into Germany, um, and running, um, leadership programs over there. Uh, I've uh, worked into the U S with, um, highly technical teams trying to teach them about emotional intelligence. That was, um, incredible experience. And then my career, uh, to sort of change parts. And I decided I wanted to head into international development, um, pure international development, so full time, and that saw a massive cultural move from Sydney to Adelaide actually. Which was a big, a big difference, but, um, heading into a team that was international and then again heading all over the world, mainly Southeast Asia and across the Pacific, where we were trying to land business, and when work, and again, engage with teams on a very short-term basis initially to set them up for very long projects, sort of three, four five-year projects. And from there, I then took off to Cambodia and immersed myself in the Cambodian culture for a year or the Camaro culture for for just under a year, actually, and worked across me and Mar uh, into Timor actually, and worked with lots of different teams in the UK, Sweden, Japan of all places I'm from Cambodia, so realized that the organization was working for her, this incredible network that I tapped into. And then we ended up back in Canberra. So now with. In Canberra across multiple again, multiple teams. And I was thinking about this a few days ago. Is there any day can go pass from working into five, six, sometimes seven different teams, from different cultures, from different generations, from different backgrounds from, yeah, just different international settings from, from a diversity inclusion perspective, just multifaceted and fascinating.

[00:15:15] Dan: I think that was the question that came to me as you're walking through that hat incredibly varied, intergenerational intercultural, international, all the inters, how do you sort of, how do you not become sort of untethered in that situation? Know there is everything seems be, sounds like everything's new. How do you actually add value? Um, in those, in those new situations constantly, how do you go.

[00:15:38] Lucy: I have no idea. No, I'm just checking. I think, I think, 

[00:15:42] Pia: I think. it will end 

[00:15:44] Lucy: I'm not entirely sure why you're interviewing me. Uh, yes, no. The, the, I think the, the thing I have learnt is that leadership there, there are really two components. I think one, one we've really touched on, which is the knowing, knowing yourself and being really clear about who you are, what you stand for and what you want. So that purpose, vision, and values, uh, side of things.

[00:16:08] But I think to build on that, that's really great to know that, but unless you are going to add any value through that process, you'd probably useless. But the other part is around building up your toolkit of leadership tools. And I think knowing how to arrive into a very foreign country, a foreign team a foreign group of people that you may need to have a high-impact on very, very quickly, I think applying some of those tools I've learned throughout, um, throughout my time, I'm applying the tools I learned 20 years ago every day, every single day and happy to share some of those tools because. Really simple, uh, but not often used.

[00:16:47] Dan: I think that'll be useful. What's the w w what do you reach for first Luce?

[00:16:51] Lucy: Sure. So the first one I really go to is the, is that question of when, when we're all in the detail and everyone's sort of waiting in the weeds myself included and just to suddenly stop and ask yourself that, that first question of what is it we're actually trying to achieve and why, and actually the. this toolkit is called the three W's. So there's three w questions with, with w starting at the front of them, funnily enough. But 

[00:17:15] Pia: Strangely enough. 

[00:17:16] Lucy: Yeah. Yeah. The first one is what are you trying to achieve and why? And that. You know, in my experience, they're just, everyone just stops and takes a couple of deep breaths and says, well, hang on a second, you right? What are we all trying to achieve together? And actually that can also flesh out where there is a lack of clarity around, oh, hang on. I thought we were achieving well, no, I thought we were achieving that. So there's sudden you realize there's not alignment in, in what we're actually trying to achieve. So that's great. A great level. Um, and then I think the second question is where are we now? And that's. That's what's the current situation what's working. What's not. And then that third question of saying what next, and that really says, how do we, how do we take ourselves from where we are right now in this moment to where we want to get to, what are the actions we need to take? So it's very action oriented. Uh, it's not a night navel gazing. Let's have another conversation about this. It's it's what are the three things we're going to do in order to get to that, that first w of what are we trying to achieve and why.

[00:18:10] Pia: And I think what's interesting about that is it's a little bit like the purpose. We talked about the CV, this, this blows a myth that the leader of a team needs to know all the answers, because actually what you've asked is three really good questions, and then you're drawing out. Knowledge and insight and opinions from the team. And I guess they get attuned to knowing that you can ask curly questions and you're gonna, there is an expectation they're going to contribute, but you're actually building up their capacity and their muscle power by doing that. Is that how it lands? 

[00:18:44] Lucy: Absolutely. And this is not about me as a leader, having the answer. It's about me creating the right conditions for other people can come up with that answer. And I'm, I'm certainly experiencing that at the moment. I'm in my new role. It's I certainly don't have all the answers. Um, and this is a great tool and very practical to use. I think one of the beautiful things, I've got a mentee and it's the wrong word to use because I think she teaches me just as much as I teach her actually. And I love it. It's a two way, two way street with this wonderful person. And she, uh, often comes to me saying. I've answered the first question. The w one question I've answered the W2 question. I just want to talk to you about the w three. So she has very well here, here, here are the answers that I think they are, but at the slight to kick your tires on that. So it actually saves a lot of time. I think when people start using that tool themselves, um, it's less about the problem sitting on the leader's shoulders and it's actually, um, the whole team engaging in the process.

[00:19:38] Dan: Fantastic. What else, what else is in the, in the grab bag for you when you're in these unusual situations?

[00:19:44] Lucy: Yes, I'm just opening it now, having this look-see uh, I think there, there are actually two other tools. I do want to talk about one the first one or the second one. So the first one we've spoken about three Ws. 

[00:19:54] The other one is really around creating conditions for success. And the way I use this is actually usually as a temperature check for my own leadership. I'm going to use an example, that comes to mind in, in a, uh, a country that I won't talk about won't name. But it's a developing country, uh, that we went into and we were over taking over from a project up there, which was a very important project. And, uh, we uncovered that there was a distinct lack of clarity around. What the team was trying to achieve. So Tim had no idea. They're just ticking along. We've done this for years. This is why we always do it. We don't really know what trying to team and off we go. So it was about stepping back and saying, hang on, what is this team trying to achieve in this massive, massive project?

[00:20:38] The second thing we did was really assess the climate really. What, w what's the temperature gauge and what was happening in that particular team? And I think what we discovered was possibly, and this is a bit serious, but possibly one of the most horrific things I've ever seen in terms of racism to the point where we brought our, one of our global head sexual heads, he was with me on this trip and he and I both sat at that table and. And shed tears with this team of nationals who had said that they had been experiencing horrible racism for years and years and years, and that talks to climate. And it talks to the culture that had been set up within that team. So needless to say, that team leader went elsewhere.

[00:21:16] But the third area we looked at was competence and we uncovered that this, we had this incredibly amazingly skilled team of nationals who just were not having their needs met, but also their potential unlocked. They had incredible knowledge and skills. But their behavior and attitude had been really impacted by the culture that the leader had set really, or by the behavior and attitude of that leader.

[00:21:42] So that, that was a great temperature check for me, and we made a lot of changes as a result of that and a few people went elsewhere as a result. And we brought in fresh blood who were really clear, who set the right direction in terms of culture and had the right behavior and attitude and knowledge and skill in order to take that team to the next level. And they're absolutely thriving today.

[00:21:59] So that's the second toolkit. Yes. All the second piece from the grab bag, if you like. And then the third, the third one is, um, is really around feedback and that's, that's around being able to have, and I think it was Dr. Jess was in the house and she's talking about psychological safety and, and I loved that, um, that it's not about being nice and it's not about being kind it's about, uh, addressing, addressing the issues and actually be able to have frontline conversations, but being safe, being filled, feeling safe to be able to do so. And I think feedback that tool that I use is really around the, you know, example impact and change. So sharing an example with someone around what they had done and not done very well or the opposite, they've done really, really well asking them what the impact was, asking them, how they're going to change or continue. Um, so that. Tool that I use pretty much on a daily basis and because I'm using it and have taught other people to use it, they also use it on me. So it's a, it's a constant feedback. loop. Yeah. Yeah. Which, which is not always welcomed, but, uh, 

[00:22:56] Pia: yeah. I've never mentioned it to Dan at all. 

[00:22:58] Lucy: Yeah, 

[00:23:00] Pia: But it's interestingly, she, mentioned this about, I mean, everything you're talking about is, and I'm wondering where the listeners are thinking, oh, this is sort of like inside out. So the I've got to know, I've got to know my own direction rather than just telling everyone what to do. And I've got to be able to develop these skills. Asking the right questions. And then instead of feeling everything is my responsibility, I've just got to create the right conditions. So there are different view of what leadership is.

[00:23:32] What's the benefit though? Like what's the benefit of knowing your own internal compass and then being able to use these tools in a variety of situation. What's the. For both the leader and the team that you've seen. 

[00:23:46] Lucy: Well, I think it's, it's shared leadership fundamentally. Um, you are empowering your people to be the best people they can be. You're gonna have buy-in you're gonna have people excited about coming to work. I wake up each day and hand on heart. I can say, I don't feel like I have a job. It, it feels. Just so right. What I'm doing. Sure. There's late, late nights and long hours and, and hardness, but it doesn't feel like a job in the sense that, I feel like I'm doing what I was meant to be doing, and I know with my team members, particularly in, in my past team that, that they feel the same, so that they're empowered. Do you know who they are, know what their values are, know what their purpose is, not the vision is, but then to act on that, and make sure that they're in alignment with the team groove. So I think the vibe of the team is very, can be very upbeat and high performing. When you have a group of people who are really clear about who they are and what they're trying to achieve individually, but also together, and I think that's it. You save a lot of time. You cut through. There's a lot of radical candor and a lot of conversations that are very direct, which if you're not okay in yourself can, can be highly offensive and can create a lot of drama. But I think you cut all of that out by being really clear and by being able to have those conversations.

[00:25:02] Dan: I've been doing some work with teams in the past, around personal purpose, and you've then got the purpose of the team and the organization. How do you navigate that? When somewhat, sometimes we're challenged to say it doesn't matter about the individual purpose they've aligned to the organizational purpose or whatever. How do you deal with that? If you like that alignment piece of allowing people, making sure that the sort of personal purpose is definitely lived, but also they do have a role don't they, that within a team, within an organization, how have you navigated that sort of tension?

[00:25:34] Lucy: Oh dear. Well, I th my observation is if your individual purpose is not aligned to the organizational purpose, then you shouldn't be working there. And it actually doesn't work out. That's when a lot of friction happens. So when a lot of tension in teams happen and, and you see deep unhappiness in that person, now, if that person's super mature, there'll be. Difference and kind of go, oh, I don't fit here anymore. I might need to move on, but if they're not, then, then that makes it tricky. Uh, and I think, you know, I've had certainly had a lot of situations, in the last 10 years, really of really having those conversations with people around what is it you're actually trying to achieve yourself. Cause this is what the business is trying to achieve. And those two don't seem to be crossing over, and I think, you know, frankly, if I think back on our time together. I think we came to a point where my individual vision and the business's individual vision were different. And that was powerful because I think it was time to navigating a different direction. Um, and I don't think there's anything there's nothing wrong with that. I think that's the beauty and, and we all stayed friends through the process and we're all thriving in our own. Right. So.

[00:26:39] Pia: Isn't it stinging that said, if you love someone, you set them three, Set them free. Was that, was that right? You know, but I think too, there is that because otherwise, you're doing it for a personal basis, not for the other person and to make them actually continued delivering their impact. But I think the ability is to be able to talk about it.

[00:26:58] Our journeys are varied. And I would probably say that everything you've talked about loose applies to our personal lives and all the challenges we've all faced. We haven't got here completely unscarred, and you need to have that central compass to enable you to overcome some of those adverse situations, and keep going.

[00:27:22] Lucy: think you're right, Pia. I think this is where there's sort of individual and team. The purpose becomes very clear is actually when you're in your hardest times that you come back to your purpose. I know in my organization, we went through some, some very big challenges, and we came back to a purpose and hung on to that and went right. Does this particular decision align with a purpose? No, it doesn't. So that's sort of very the organizational level than at a team level again, your decision-making is actually aligned to your team purpose. Um, and then at an individual level the same thing, sorry, we've got very, really serious then didn't we?

[00:27:58] Dan: But I'm glad you mentioned that that, uh, least certainly we definitely, yeah, we had some that sort of white water in our relationship. But since then, you made that courageous choice and, and I think it's been amazing to see you on. This trajectory, that's purpose driven. And I think it's your success over the years have demonstrated the power of that. I think it's, yeah, it's been wonderful to see. 

[00:28:20] So there's, it's, it's been so interesting and there's lots of goodies there, but how is there any way of sort of, what, what would you leave us with and what thought would you, um, you would you leave our lovely listener with?

[00:28:32] Lucy: I think there, there were probably two things. One is know yourself, know who you are, know who you bring to the conversation. And then the second thing is arm yourself with that toolkit. Uh, no, no, some key leadership tools that you can, you can take. Uh, but I really do think. I think it's best summarized actually by a quick story, if you don't mind, if you can indulge me, if I can indulge myself in telling a quick story.

[00:28:56] So this is the story of two wolves and people listening may have heard this one, but basically it's about an old Cherokee and he's teaching his grandson about life. And he says to his boy, uh, or to his grandson, a fight is going on inside me. It's a terrible. It's between two wolves. One is evil. He is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance self-pity guilt, resentment, inferiority lies, false pride, superiority and ego.

[00:29:26] He continued on the other is good. He is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you and inside every other person. The grandson thought about it for a minute. And then he asked his grandfather grandad, which Wolf will win. And the old Cherokee simply replied the one you fade 

[00:29:55] Pia: That doesn't have a terrible end to it. That he fed his grandson to the Wolf or something like that. 

[00:30:01] Lucy: and then they ate the granddad.

[00:30:06] Pia: Oh, there we 

[00:30:07] Dan: Oh, it's such a powerful fable.

[00:30:10] Lucy: Thank 

[00:30:10] Pia: Um, actually, uh, actually, I mean, I've had, I've had that fable told to me recently. I mean, it, it. is, um, we can undermine ourselves by feeding that wrong Wolf and you need to have that internal compass to come back to, what am I trying to achieve? What's this all about, knowing that, asking the right questions and the way of enabling others is, is a good way to achieve that impact.

[00:30:36] Lucy: Absolutely pay it. And I think just a very simple, you know, I, I have this with my husband, he will have be having a conversation and he'll just say to me, which Wolf you're feeding and it's a wonderful Lee, it will level of, for me of like, you're right, I'm choosing, I'm feeding the wrong one and it gets me back out. I'm a stink, I'm a funk or whatever it is. And back to feeding the right one.

[00:30:58] Pia: And you're very brave. Enabling your husband to give you feedback. That's very brave too. 

[00:31:03] Lucy: Oh, did I put him in the doghouse for the next six weeks? But anyway, apart from that, 

[00:31:07] Pia: Wow, loose busted a whole bunch of myths around leadership. I think in that, uh, in that interview, didn't you think, Dan,

[00:31:19] Dan: Yeah. I just I've thought the way that she's so mindful about those things, but, um, the, her approach to leading teams, but there were some real surprises in there. 

[00:31:29] Pia: for me, it was around. Sometimes we believe that the leader needs to know everything. And that they need to be the expert either technically or strategically. And I think what Luce really articulated was the ability to ask the right questions, build out that collective knowledge, and that, that is the active leadership. Not, not telling, but also, I guess there's moments of loneliness. In that leadership position. So having that groundedness of the Heart, maybe as a way of putting it around, understanding your internal compass, she called it a purpose. And I th I think that's also really important, but hey, purpose love and peace and mung beans has a lot of meaning to it. So perhaps we need to unpack that a little bit so that we understand. 

[00:32:30] Dan: Well, I look, I, I, I, it can have that sort of ring of knitting your own yogurt concept, but, um, but I do think in that she talks about purpose, vision and values. I think vision is reasonably clear, although you know about your goals, she talks about three years ahead, five years ahead. Keeping that reasonably sufficiently open, not necessarily I'm going to be in this role, but actually the way she described it, I thought was great. And the values, of course, your underlying your principles and your beliefs purpose is a bit more tricky. But if, if you like the vision is the what, the values are, how you're going to behave, but the purpose is the. So it's, to me, I always think of it almost like a journey that you've got this vision that's a place on the horizon. You're going to go to somewhere on the landscape, but your purpose is actually the star that you're going towards. It's it really is your meaning your reason for existence.

[00:33:20] I think the tricky bit is that we often don't ask ourselves why I'm here on earth. We just are. And we just get on with our business. But, you know, the way Lucy sort of stated that her goal was to be at her purpose was to be a pioneer. It's a really great example of really encapsulating why you're here and therefore the role that you can play in your teams and the families and the people around and the groups of people around you. '

[00:33:43] Pia: Cause I guess the legacy of your purpose is the impact that you create for others around you. It isn't about a rank, title or position. It inevitably is about what you've created for others or the impact that you've had. So that, that's why it is sometimes that wrong Wolf can tell us, walk on. I don't, you know, I'm, my job isn't important enough. I don't need to think about these things and, and you diminish yourself. 

[00:34:14] Dan: Yes, absolutely.

[00:34:16] Pia: What a purpose does it, it gives you, it really Stokes the fire of doing something pretty amazing in your life and leaving the positive legacy and an impact for what 

[00:34:26] Dan: Indeed and the concentration, I must say those walls really struck. Now I've heard the parable before, but the way Lucy told it, it sort of brought it back to me. But my reflection was that actually one of those walls, the less positive Wolf is more greedy or, um, at least is more aggressive about getting the foods. I think we are often in danger of overfeeding that Wolf and your, um, yeah. And your purpose can help you to keep on track for that.

[00:34:50] The other element, of course, Lucy talks about that was interesting. Was there sort of head and of things, again, busting some myths about leadership, which is often framed as a, um, you know, just something mystical you born with these traits and,

[00:35:03] Pia: Oh, well, most of us are never going to achieve anything then. I mean 

[00:35:07] Dan: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[00:35:08] Pia: Yeah, born or bred, I thought I'm surely that one has been put to 

[00:35:12] Dan: We'd hope it has, but it's amazing on LinkedIn, how much the memes and the fill the clickbait is sort of in a way, fueling some of this again, to say you've got these traits. Whereas actually what Lucy is saying is there is a toolkit. There are some things you can do pull out of your bag and ask certain questions, um, and you'll get more done. And as you say, distribute that leadership in, in the team.

[00:35:32] Pia: I think it's really powerful for all of us to do a little bit of soul searching, but also the leadership is not easy, but there are some simple questions and simple conditions that you can create. So I think that creates a whole different way of seeing how you can really impact the people in your team and around you. And they're just some simple practices.

[00:35:58] So exciting now, uh, next week. We have Owen Finnegan joining us, and Owen is renowned as an ex Wallaby rugby union player. And he's also the CEO of the kids cancer project. And, we are extremely honored to have him on the program to give us that perspective of. From the sports field to the business, what some of the common traits and, and what's he learnt along that journey. So really look forward to speaking with them soon.

[00:36:32] Dan: Yeah, I can't wait to meet him and have that conversation. So that's it. For this episode, you can find show notes and resources@spotify.net. Just click on the we, not me podcast link. if you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love And recommend it to your friends. Were not me. it's produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me. 

[00:36:52] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.